|
Hello teamliquid, I am Nyter, about 700 points EU Masters Protoss, and I have a problem.
90% of the people I faced on the ladder last week were zergs. 9 out of 10.
Out of 20 people, 1 terran, 1 protoss, 18 zergs.
My worst matchup is PvZ, but that would be ok because I would have plenty of opportunities to practice this matchup. Except that this is not the case, because of those 90% of zergs, about 90% of that does an all-in.
This means out of every 20 games, 18 are zergs, and 16 of those zergs are doing all-ins.
I usually open forge fast expand, without pylon block and these are the all-ins i face REGULARY on the ladder:
7 pool all-in (all drones pulled)
10 pool with about 10-12 zerglings
Roach-ling 2 base all-in @ 5 minutes
Nydus all-in
Baneling bust
The list goes on.
Before making comments about: U should just scout it, l2p noob etc, that is another problem: scouting.
I ALWAYS 9 pylon scout. I usually scout clockwise, but sometimes counter-clockwise depending on the map. Every map I play on is a 4 player map. (I veto'd xel'naga, but that is for another time.)
So when my probe arrives at the last scouting position, I see the lings already running to my base. At this point I cancel all probes in production, quickly finish my block and build a cannon but it's too late, the lings break my wall and it's GG.
So I got mad. No I usually don't flame at the zergs (I usually just rage-quit after I lose to 6pool), so I decided to 6 pool myself.
Note, I haven't played zerg since season 1, so I have no idea about build orders (beside, 6 pool, obviously) or mechanics.
Here are the results:
http://replayfu.com/r/4K1qDg
http://www.mediafire.com/?z4z6hsh94bcpc65
http://www.mediafire.com/?b1ubyomazx318y5
My point being: Is 6 or 7 pool (against protoss) overpowerd, because there is a luck factor involved in scouting it first? What is a pro's opinion about this?
I remember the Dreamhack final, Huk vs Moon. Huk holds the 6 pool because he scouted it first. What if he scouted clockwise? Would he still hold?
Thanks for reading.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.
|
dam. this means if u make ur wall and cannon faster you'll win 80% of ur games without even trying! lucky you
|
I personally think it's far too strong, especially on the likes of Terminus or TDA. As stated at the GSL, it's a good economic opening, after the first 6 lings you can drone as hard as you like because it's almost guaranteed to do economic damage unless the Protoss is going for a one-base play.
There's no way I can think of to nerf it though, just double scout on big maps and hopefully you'll do okay.
|
Defending a 6 pool/7pool isn't normally that hard to pull off. pay attention to your scouting probe on the minimap looking for zerglings. Also check for that second overlord which wont be over the natural yet. From there depending on how quickly i scouted it I will place down a forge and a pylon to fully wall of. (i sometimes cancel it when my Zeal comes outs. Basically keep chronoing zealots out and defend the pylon powering your gateway at all costs. remember that a 6 pool has no queen and only 6-8 zerglings rallied every 40 seconds. You can lose up to 5 probes and still be ahead due to zerg having only 6-7 and no expansion.
|
On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.
On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.
Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)
|
Don't be so predictable or properly scout before expanding. Going Nexus first without making sure I'm expanding is terrible.
I've won all my PvZs because they all greedily FFE without properly scouting. All I have to do is pretend I'm expanding or get lings out and kill your probe while moving my drone out to make it look like I'm expanding and some of you go Nexus first.
Scout properly and don't cut corners. Make sure I actually expanded (I baneling bust when I see lazy scouting), make sure to scout the close positions first as well (I 8-pool on FFE).
|
In maps like Taldarim if you don't find your opponent at first position you should 13or14 forge and use that same probe to scout the third and last position as your first probe goes to the second spot 
If you scout 6 pool with any probe you have more than enough time to build a pylon close to your nexus. Then you have to micro your probes as the cannon goes up in your mineral line.
Just a small tip. You lose 1 probe that could be mining to play safe.
|
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)
Is this a forge + 2gate wall or 2 pylon + forge + gate wall?
|
im grandmaster protoss myself and i think 6pool is best cheese ingame. Its like 33% or 66% autowin in 4player maps where protoss doesnt forge fastexpand.
|
Wow, Plexa that is good advice, I'll keep that in mind for my own games, thank you. That being said, the 6-pool is the essence of a strategy not being overpowered imo. It is potent for sure, but there is a reason why you don't see it too often in high level tournaments. If you are playing to win consistently 6-pool will not get you too far.
Of course you might not do too badly (go Action Jesus go)
|
90% of the time I pull statistics out of my as only 90% of them are wrong, but the 90% of those other 10% are actually kind of close.
User was warned for this post
|
On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.
Oh sorry, I wasn't clear, I always do my FFE as the following:
13 forge
(pool before hatch):
15 cannon
16 gate
16 pylon
17 nexus
or
13 forge
(hatch before pool)
15 nexus
15 gate
16 cannon
16 pylon
So I never do a blind nexus first, that would be stupid. My point being is that me (and a lot of toss) are losing to 6 pools (and other cheesy all-ins) when going forge - cannon - gate with a full block, and just losing because you placed those buildings too late (because u scouted it last.)
|
On September 28 2011 16:21 Nyter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. Oh sorry, I wasn't clear, I always do my FFE as the following: 13 forge (pool before hatch): 15 cannon 16 gate 16 pylon 17 nexus or 13 forge (hatch before pool) 15 nexus 15 gate 16 cannon 16 pylon So I never do a blind nexus first, that would be stupid. My point being is that me (and a lot of toss) are losing to 6 pools (and other cheesy all-ins) when going forge - cannon - gate with a full block, and just losing because you placed those buildings too late (because u scouted it last.)
The first gives you a very late nexus, personally I'd go forge nexus cannon gate if it was a standard pool timing. I suppose that's personal preference though.
|
I'm a zerg, and I don't 6 pool or anything like that because I thought that doing forge first is an auto-loss for the Zerg..
Well that's all the games I've played/watched where there is a 6 pool making the pylon at your mineral line and make a cannon.. surround it with probes when you see the zerglings come and use the probes and the cannon(you can add another one too if you don't feel safe) until you get gate up etc.
I don't get how you die to 6/7 pools when you're FFEing it's the easiest way to stop a 6 pool. I've never seen someone able to do the full block on Shak Plat with a decent 6 pool.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/
|
On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/
You don't have an advantage in that situation though, it's pretty much dead even, and if you made any mistakes, or you scout 2nd position, or you pylon/cannon in the main are just a little late... You lose. Assuming you it all perfect, you end up even-ahead 2-4 workers depending on how many lings he made after the first 6 or so...
|
If you 13 forge and double scout there's no way a 6pool should kill you outright because you'll always have enough time to get a pylon + cannon up in your main by the time it arrives.
That said, I do find it quite frustrating to play against because it seems to be able to transition out of it so well if you are good (just like in the July v Naniwa AoL game). Although I think the Toss is still at a small eco advantage after the pylon/forge loss, I just hate how a 6pool can turn into such a long macro game afterwards lol =p
|
On September 28 2011 16:36 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/ You don't have an advantage in that situation though, it's pretty much dead even, and if you made any mistakes, or you scout 2nd position, or you pylon/cannon in the main are just a little late... You lose. Assuming you it all perfect, you end up even-ahead 2-4 workers depending on how many lings he made after the first 6 or so...
Not really. You should always send 2 probes(9 pylon scout and 13 forge scout) in taldarim altar to see if there is early pool or cannonrush hatch first. And you shouldnt lose many probes if any. Then you have like 17 probes to ~10 drones
And if you see 7pool or later its important to just block the choke or you get behind.
|
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
|
It's what happens when you go for a FFE, you have the chance to get punished. Just like how a zerg can auto lose to an 11/11 if they spawn close positions and hatch first.
|
Just give zealots same speed as lings and make them spawn in 4s and i'd 6gate every game
User was warned for this post
|
On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/
This!!!!!!!!!
Also some points I want to add:
-) on 4player maps zerg has the same problem (late scouting)
-) FFE against hatch first is the same principle as 6pool vs Nexus first (with the difference that 6pool is an allin, Canonrush an option you get without making any sacrifices)
-) if you have trouble with 6pools with a Forge opening (though it is beatable, but does only transition into a lead for protoss, not into an autowin if both players play it well) and there are as many 6pools around as you said --> Gateway expand
-) 5min 2base roach/ling??? WTF! That's not possible... that's a 1base roach/ling allin you're talking about! (maybe with hatchcancel)
|
It's overpowered becuase it's completely up to chance wether if you scout it or not. I don't think the 6-pool is OP, I would prefer to say it's the maps which make it OP.
To be quiet honest, the only part of SC2 I hate is the early game because of cheeses and builds like this. But keep in mind, I'm not blaming the all-ins and cheeses... I'm blaming the maps which let this happen too easily.
Honestly, who in this world wants to play 30 games on ladder only to come up against cheese everytime? You never learn much at all. I would rather play 30 macro games, only because it's a much better way to futher game knowledge/experience. I'm actually resorting to just playing in-house and tournies only. For now, screw ladder.
I don't mind 4 player maps. But i think 4 player maps with only 2 spawn positions would fix alot of this. Then people can clearly say if you lost to cheese, it's because you didn't scout well enough.
|
Seriously dudes read this text: Forge fast expanding you shouldnt lose to 6pool. Just send 2 scouts and build pylon next to your mineral line if you scout 6pool
|
On September 28 2011 16:57 ZorBa.G wrote:
It's overpowered becuase it's completely up to chance wether if you scout it or not. I don't think the 6-pool is OP, I would prefer to say it's the maps which make it OP.
To be quiet honest, the only part of SC2 I hate is the early game because of cheeses and builds like this. But keep in mind, I'm not blaming the all-ins and cheeses... I'm blaming the maps which let this happen too easily.
Honestly, who in this world wants to play 30 games on ladder only to come up against cheese everytime? You never learn much at all. I would rather play 30 macro games, only because it's a much better way to futher game knowledge/experience. I'm actually resorting to just playing in-house and tournies only. For now, screw ladder.
I don't mind 4 player maps. But i think 4 player maps with only 2 spawn positions would fix alot of this. Then people can clearly say if you lost to cheese, it's because you didn't scout well enough.
You bring a good idea. More maps with a shakuras plateau-like idea, limiting some spawn locations to 1 or 2 will make cheesing more effective (because you dont have to scout/scout less) but this is also an advantage for the defender.
For now i'd just double scout @ 9 when i FFE ._.
|
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)
I'm pretty sure I held off 6pools on Shakuras by walling off and then adding cannon at the natural, they usually broke 1 gateway just as the cannon finished.
But yeah, basically don't build nexus until you see pool or hatch timing, nuff said.
|
On September 28 2011 17:15 Zaphid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) I'm pretty sure I held off 6pools on Shakuras by walling off and then adding cannon at the natural, they usually broke 1 gateway just as the cannon finished. But yeah, basically don't build nexus until you see pool or hatch timing, nuff said.
Im pretty sure your opponent didnt execute 6pool well, since its not possible to wall off and hold 6pool, trust me, i have tried many times.
|
On September 28 2011 17:17 mazqo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 17:15 Zaphid wrote:On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) I'm pretty sure I held off 6pools on Shakuras by walling off and then adding cannon at the natural, they usually broke 1 gateway just as the cannon finished. But yeah, basically don't build nexus until you see pool or hatch timing, nuff said. Im pretty sure your opponent didnt execute 6pool well, since its not possible to wall off and hold 6pool, trust me, i have tried many times.
I'd assume master level zergs can do that properly, but whatever :D Yeah, but you are probably right, they can block the buildings with drone.
|
Losing to 6pool is embarassing, I thought by now people would know how to defend.
As a Zerg I never win with 6 pool. If you feel that all zergs cheese, send a scout out earlier, see what they're up to....
|
i got grandmaster by only 6pooling : /
|
On September 28 2011 17:19 Zaphid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 17:17 mazqo wrote:On September 28 2011 17:15 Zaphid wrote:On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) I'm pretty sure I held off 6pools on Shakuras by walling off and then adding cannon at the natural, they usually broke 1 gateway just as the cannon finished. But yeah, basically don't build nexus until you see pool or hatch timing, nuff said. Im pretty sure your opponent didnt execute 6pool well, since its not possible to wall off and hold 6pool, trust me, i have tried many times. I'd assume master level zergs can do that properly, but whatever :D Yeah, but you are probably right, they can block the buildings with drone.
No, building at the wall will just get destroyed before your cannon is ready, and im 100% sure of this.
|
just make a defensive pylon behind the mineralline and make a cannon right in ur minerals. ull lose ur pylon and ur foge in the front but ur eco is far far ahead almost unloseable.
|
People still don't know how to defend a 6 pool after FFE...
If you throw down a pylon at 15 supply, you should be fine. You will lose your forge and pylon, but still be ahead economically. Throw down a gateway and core after in range of your cannon. Play normally after this. You can usually sneak a probe into their base too to scout, since fast speed is impossible.
|
On September 28 2011 16:59 Nyter wrote:
You bring a good idea. More maps with a shakuras plateau-like idea, limiting some spawn locations to 1 or 2 will make cheesing more effective (because you dont have to scout/scout less) but this is also an advantage for the defender.
For now i'd just double scout @ 9 when i FFE ._.
the funny thing is i turned shakuras off beacuse its unwinable against protoss when u open up with 6pool :D
|
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
So it would seem.
If you go for a quick expo like a nexus first or FFE of course you are going to be at risk from an early pool from Zerg. I could say the same thing about me going 15 hatch against a protoss going 2 gate.
6 pool is not overpowered, especially on a 4 player map. Yes you might not be expecting it but it's still a huge risk for the zerg because if you hold it off, even with some loses, you are almost certain to be ahead. Probe micro and either 1 zealot or a cannon will hold 6 pool no problems but of course you have to get the zealot\cannon before you put don the nexus otherwise it wont get out in time
|
On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/
What if the zerg bypasses the forge and pylon at ramp, run directly into the mineral line to attack probe and the warping pylon/canon? Toss will either lose probes or suffer lost mining time then.
As soon as toss' canon is up, zerg can go back to ramp and kill the forge.
(This is even mentioned in Liquidpedia's 6 pool section lmfao)
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 28 2011 17:48 Quochobao wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/ What if the zerg bypasses the forge and pylon at ramp, run directly into the mineral line to attack probe and the warping pylon/canon? Toss will either lose probes or suffer lost mining time then. As soon as toss' canon is up, zerg can go back to ramp and kill the forge. (This is even mentioned in Liquidpedia's 6 pool section lmfao)
What about it? At least you can defend your cannon with good micro. Losing mining time is better than losing the game.
|
going hatch first against protoss is often an auto loss to someone who uses cannons correctly, doing an econ build has its risks and rewards. I think if you fast expand every game it's normal that you will sometimes lose games to someone doing something like a 6-pool.
It's just the risk you take for the econ advantage, just like the 6 pooling player is taking a risk with his build to sacrifice econ for a chance to kill you.
|
well he has 6 lings you still should be able to kill them with probes since the cannon makes him comit fast so no reinforcements can join the battle. if its just a 6 ling rush zerg is behind like 100% anyways. if zergs 6pool they should end the game in the first 5 minutes
|
15 Forge, pylon near mineral line, cannon in mineral line, EZPZ
|
I know exactly what you are dealing with, I recently obtained an EU account myself and I'm staggered by the amount of zerg all ins. I got the account because I thought EU was supposed to be more skilled then NA but from what I've seen so far its just cheese central.
But yeah like the others are saying forge first will really take care of your issues, I mean your not going to be saturated at your main before you expand either way so the gain from the nexus first is like the 3-4 probes you would have had in the build time of the forge, not worth risking the whole game over IMO.
|
Well now you know what it feels like to be Terran in TvP =P ...
All joking aside, if you practice enough your defences will get better and you can go kill him after defence... i mean like microing probes and such.... the better your micro is the easier it is to win the game later on
|
Oh my GOD.
Poor protoss. Zerg actually can PUNISH an expend first, riskier and greedier opening in the whole game ? By doing an all-in ?
That's gotta be OP, please nerf this Blizzard !
Sarcasm aside, you know that zergs mainly stopped hatch first because they where punished by cannons in mineral lines ?
That's the same thing, but the 6 pool is worse because it puts you behind and you're taking a huge risk.
I'm really glad that you get punished for being greedy, maybe that'll make you protoss actually have to think about it before FFEing.
User was warned for this post
|
Sounds like you have vetoed all the horrible new maps that are really bad for zerg. Maybe unveto searing crater etc and veto shakuras and tal darim (you can still veto xel naga if you must)? Should be getting more P and T after that.
|
The metagame is currently back to, "Kill the protoss before colossus", so expect all-ins. I dunno what else to tell ya from a zerg perspective... if they all in-ya then its your micro vs ours.
|
On September 28 2011 18:35 d00p wrote:
Sounds like you have vetoed all the horrible new maps that are really bad for zerg. Maybe unveto searing crater etc and veto shakuras and tal darim (you can still veto xel naga if you must)? Should be getting more P and T after that.
I think every vP I played in the last days was on Tal'darim... And both Tal'darim and Shakuras are said to be P favored in tournaments!
But yes... searing crater and Xel'Naga...
|
Thanks for the advice everyone! So what i'll do every game vs zerg:
Forge FE (unless map forbids it, like typhon peaks), double probe scout and if its 6 to 10 pool, pylon behind and cannon in my mineral line. Should i follow that up with a 4gate or can i expand when im safe?
|
well giving the zerg time will give him the chance to come back. force a zerg with a cripled eco to make even more units and u will win. i would prefer a 4 gate as follow up. same as i would defend a 10 pool with a cannon at my expand and a wallin, then follow up with expand and some 6gate allin, which is no allin since ur eco is up by far anyways ^_^
|
maybe i'm out of line, but I don't understand how it's fucking possible that almost every day there is a new thread with a protoss player asking about 6pool and how almost all the advice in the thread is by other protoss players giving bad advice. And these aren't silver protoss but like, master protoss most of the time. I don't understand. Take ten minutes and find a zerg and make a practice game.
It's really not difficult to stop guys.... the reason most of you who lose to it think it's overpowered or coin-flippy is because you react incorrectly, and then you read a forum like this, and other players who don't know how to stop it give you more bad advice. If you don't know how to stop a 6pool I don't understand why you give advice in a thread like this where the OP thinks 6pool is a problem.
Plexa gave you a perfect answer in the first reply (and clarified in his followup) about how to defend FFE against a 6pool.
code-S spoiler
As I type this, + Show Spoiler +DRG wins with a pretty simple zergling build against a pretty pitiful FFE.
On September 28 2011 18:51 Nyter wrote:
Thanks for the advice everyone! So what i'll do every game vs zerg:
Forge FE (unless map forbids it, like typhon peaks), double probe scout and if its 6 to 10 pool, pylon behind and cannon in my mineral line. Should i follow that up with a 4gate or can i expand when im safe?
you usually shouldn't 4gate because you will likely be even with a 10pool if he only made 6 lings (and behind if he made 0 because there is a variation on 10pool that is economically identical to 11-18), and if he did an eco-6pool where he made 2 drones before sending lings, he may have droned behind 6 lings as well and you may or may not be enough ahead to kill him. Expanding is probably the best decision.
Especially since you're on ladder and most of the players who 6-pool you probably can't play a longer game.
|
On September 28 2011 19:08 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Especially since you're on ladder and most of the players who 6-pool you probably can't play a longer game.
wow dude, thats insulting
|
i agree on some maps, i think the luck factor of scouting it last and basically being screwed is gay, but you can work into that
i almost never ffe becaue i think its bad, lets the z get a quick 3rd and just seems to be a bad strat because you never get too far ahead.
i actually face 6 pool quite alot on ladder also ( mid masters but aint played for a month ) and i just modfied my build..
i 11 forge and skip the chrono, i then if its a 4 p map like tel dar rim, scout with 2 probs 1 after pylong at 9 and 1 after forge at 11
if i see anything cheesy i cut probs and you can wall just in time, (down to about 2 seconds gap) and keep your forge + pylon alive
meta game it baby!
just go 3gate expand and roll the 6 pool
|
You should try what White-Ra does against early pool most of the time, and I haven't seen him lose to it once.
Trying to complete the wall is not viable on some maps, especially when you scout late. Instead as soon as you see an early pool or lings put a pylon in your mineral line and build a cannon there. This should be easy to do with minimal probes micro. Meanwhile with your scouting probe build proxy 2 gates and attack with 5 zealots. Easy win.
You can find several replays of this in the latest special tactics replay pack.
|
On September 28 2011 20:11 habermas wrote:
You should try what White-Ra does against early pool most of the time, and I haven't seen him lose to it once.
Trying to complete the wall is not viable on some maps, especially when you scout late. Instead as soon as you see an early pool or lings put a pylon in your mineral line and build a cannon there. This should be easy to do with minimal probes micro. Meanwhile with your scouting probe build proxy 2 gates and attack with 5 zealots. Easy win.
You can find several replays of this in the latest special tactics replay pack.
http://drop.sc/33606
|
so what rofl all that toss do is 2 base allin anyway 6gate VR/6gate blink 6gate colossus nothing else
User was warned for this post
|
6pool is really hard to stop on Tal'Darim and Shakuras. (Not sure about tournament-maps) I'm not sure it's overpowered, but I agree that it's way too effective given how much luck is involved with the spawns and scouting.
|
welll haxxenspetten once u 6pool ull notice ever losing player will start whining about their starting positions, no matter where they start actually^^
|
Usually when someone 6 pools me it's autowin for me, even if I FFE. Usually I don't go for expand afterwards and just 4 gate them or go 2 gateways with mass zealots and just push for the win, remember just to have a probe in the back of their natural to check if they decides to expand or not. Helps you decide whenever it's really all-in or just eco 6 pool.
|
Belgium1257 Posts
You just 13forge, make a wall and use a probe pull to defend until the cannon is done. Don't even need to sacrifice your forge and pylon and make a cannon in your mineral line (on most maps)
|
The funny thing is if you hold it, people assume you automatically win. Oh no, no, no. I get this all the time on the KR server. Your tech is delayed, and they just expand and do the roach/ling attack when you expo. Same old, same old. And countering with an all-in is met with spine crawlers.. so many spine crawlers..
|
On September 28 2011 16:59 Nyter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:57 ZorBa.G wrote:
It's overpowered becuase it's completely up to chance wether if you scout it or not. I don't think the 6-pool is OP, I would prefer to say it's the maps which make it OP.
To be quiet honest, the only part of SC2 I hate is the early game because of cheeses and builds like this. But keep in mind, I'm not blaming the all-ins and cheeses... I'm blaming the maps which let this happen too easily.
Honestly, who in this world wants to play 30 games on ladder only to come up against cheese everytime? You never learn much at all. I would rather play 30 macro games, only because it's a much better way to futher game knowledge/experience. I'm actually resorting to just playing in-house and tournies only. For now, screw ladder.
I don't mind 4 player maps. But i think 4 player maps with only 2 spawn positions would fix alot of this. Then people can clearly say if you lost to cheese, it's because you didn't scout well enough. You bring a good idea. More maps with a shakuras plateau-like idea, limiting some spawn locations to 1 or 2 will make cheesing more effective (because you dont have to scout/scout less) but this is also an advantage for the defender. For now i'd just double scout @ 9 when i FFE ._.
Yeah, to be quiet honest imagine playing on those 4 player maps where it's "only" cross spawn positions. I apoligise if I go a little off topic here. But would cross position spawns force more macro play on the ladder?
In my opinion;
- People will still cheese, but it's more riskier as it can be more easily scouted + more time to prepare for.
- Would this make the terran 1-1-1 more weaker? You now hav emore time to prepare for it.
- Would it generally make early all-ins easier to defend against?
Obviously all the cheeses and early all-ins would still work, but at least it wouldn't put it all up to "chance" just because you didn't scout whatever build they did too late.
I think if the cross spawns were to be implemented, players would get more greedy with expos ect. hence why cheesing would still be effective. But at least it's more easier for the defender to scout cheap go-for wins from the opponent. Me personally, I am tired to death of seeing threads of "This such cheese got me to Masters." Honestly, woopy f**king doo! Now your in masters and what? You try another build and get your ass cleaned up! The only reason people cheese in my opinion is because;
1. They generally like to piss other people off and get excitment out of it.
2. They simply want the quickest way to masters, which is fair enough... but do these types of people really deserve the placement?
I'll admit though, there is nothing better then winning a game against a cheeser. It's the only time my BM comes out lol. I can understand why you would cheese in a BO3 tourney match, but ladder? really?
|
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
First I have to underline this statement because it speaks out of my heart.
Second there is a current thread about how to defend 6 pool and in THERE is a post which describes how to defend a 6pool:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258402#17
TLDR: don't be greedy, learn how to defend using the guide
Edit:
@ZorBa.G sure cheesing for zerg and Terran is harder and easily scouted. But there is a race that just can warp units right in front of your ramp! Considered this?
|
Make a pool require a 2nd overlord (maybe build 5-10 seconds faster as well), as a Zerg/Random I would be all for it honestly. Would make ZvZ less retarded and PvZ a little less shitty.
I don't think it's "overpowered," it's just a TRUE "scout this or lose" build that is basically a 33% auto-win on 4 player maps. It's still only a 33% winrate against properly executed FFEs, but it's also 33% stupid wins. This, among other things, is why I much prefer 3 spawn locations to 4.
|
On September 28 2011 21:16 Bad_Habit wrote:
welll haxxenspetten once u 6pool ull notice ever losing player will start whining about their starting positions, no matter where they start actually^^
Of course, but does that really make it any less luck based? It just adds to the randomness factor imo.
|
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
well duh lol, dont u know as zerg you are supposed to always play from 1 base behind at all times? sheesh noobs these days :D. But on a serious note just dont forge FE if he 6 pools and u dont forge FE and u stop it then u r way ahead O_o
|
6-pool is no more over- or underpowered than 2 gate zealot rush vs zerg. What you need to ask I think is if FFE is a build order loss to 6-pool, and I think you'll probably find it is map dependent. On maps that have a very wide open natural then maybe you don't go FFE. You can't just do the same build every map.
Also, comparing a zerg fast expand vs protoss fast expand is stupid. Which incidentaly IS a build order loss to 2 gate zealot.
|
you have to pull probes. this is the best way to defend. even if you made a gate first or forge first, you have to pull probes. when they attack your structures (pylon, gate, cannon, etc), attack them but the moment they turn around and start attacking your probes, you back away. Try to keep all your probes alive while you get your zealot or cannon ready.
|
On September 28 2011 21:32 iNViCiOUZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? First I have to underline this statement because it speaks out of my heart. Second there is a current thread about how to defend 6 pool and in THERE is a post which describes how to defend a 6pool: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258402#17TLDR: don't be greedy, learn how to defend using the guide Edit: @ZorBa.G sure cheesing for zerg and Terran is harder and easily scouted. But there is a race that just can warp units right in front of your ramp! Considered this?
That's a guide to 1 base defending a 6pool, I don't think anybody has trouble with that. I think the OP wanted to know how to do it with a FFE build.
And if a zerg has such a creep spread that you can warp just in front of him, he kinda deserves to die. Oh, and it's the same thing for protoss, if you let a zerg put his pool down at 6, then you...wait...deserve to lose 33% of the time, is that it?
I think 6 pool is very frustrating for protoss because whatever you do, when it comes and you didn't get to scout it in time (which can happen), you have basically nothing, which feels unfair. I'm not discussing the strength of the 6pool, btw, just that no other race has that moment where your base is completely open, he has 6 military units and you have like 16 probes. So yeah, as a guy above me said, you must pull probes and have a way better micro than he does or hope that he screws up. Because even with a zealot eventually out, you can always keep your lings alive in the P base.
You would be dumb not to cheese a protoss btw, it's way harder to defend any kind of cheese with protoss than with the other races atm. It used to be that 4gate was the Holy Grail of cheeses, very strong and easy to execute, but it's not the case anymore because of multiple P nerfs, which in turn made our defenses that much weaker. And those nerfs were mainly for PvP. Talk about a race destroying itself :D
|
On September 28 2011 21:55 ZenithM wrote:
And if a zerg has such a creep spread that you can warp just in front of him, he kinda deserves to die. Oh, and it's the same thing for protoss, if you let a zerg put his pool down at 6, then you...wait...deserve to lose 33% of the time, is that it?
wtf... so JulyZerg deserves to die because his creepspread sucks, because obviously he doesn't need it in his playstyle...
It's like saying: if a protoss forgets to chronoboost his upgrades he deserves to die...
If a Terran does a supply drop, he deserves to die...
And I don't know in which butter league you play in, but before you're not at least Platinum, I really wouldn't start complaining about build order losses, especially if a FFE vs a 6pool isn't a such, as you can read in this thread and see in pro games. It just cripples you to sacrificing the expansion attempt - and now don't tell me this is imbalanced! There is way more stuff in the game that cripples you way harder
On September 28 2011 21:55 ZenithM wrote:I think 6 pool is very frustrating for protoss because whatever you do, when it comes and you didn't get to scout it in time (which can happen), you have basically nothing, which feels unfair. I'm not discussing the strength of the 6pool, btw, just that no other race has that moment where your base is completely open, he has 6 military units and you have like 16 probes. So yeah, as a guy above me said, you must pull probes and have a way better micro than he does or hope that he screws up. Because even with a zealot eventually out, you can always keep your lings alive in the P base.
you obviously never played ZvZ... early pool is frustrating THERE
also ever played against a terran or protoss proxy?
against a terran that floated to the gold on metalopolis?
a protoss that blocks your ramp with a 2nd scout?
that's all stuff you often can't scout and you can lose to and that is all at least as frustrating as 6pools...
|
For those of you complaining about FFE scouting on 4 player maps, double scouting is the key. You send one probe after pylon at 9, and then another probe after you build the forge and don't find them at the first spawn. This moaning about 33% and Shakuras being better is BS, if you double scout then on every map you will find them at second scout timing. This is something you will often see pro players skip, but it is the safest way to FFE, and it also gives you 2 probes out on the map for later in the game, instead of the usual one. You can then send the second probe to scout around 5 minutes for the next possible all-ins.
|
I've had alot of 6 pools in Plat league recently - Zerg are complaining that they can't win a macro game with protoss (hi, have you met Brood Lords?) anyways, one thing i've found is on maps such as Tal'Darim, Nerazim Crypt (yes, the one with the rocks) and other maps that have a choke point at the natural are the easiest to FFE on (unless you're Killer and you just attempt a FFE on maps like Cross Fire :D)
What i prefer to do is forge at 14 and cannon as soon as its done BEFORE dropping nexus - only when i scout the Zerg and know a 6 pool isn't coming do i drop a Nexus and continue my BO.
If i do scout a 6 pool (i.e. lings running past or lucky first time scout and notice lack of Drones) then i drop another cannon or two and then drop Gateways to complete a wall off (drop Cannons behind where you're going putting Gateways).
When the 6 pool fails, especially on a map like Tal'Darim, drop Pylons around the perimeter of your base as they will likely attempt a Nydus - if you're going Stargate after securing your natural then make an extra pheonix to take out any lingering Overlords around your base, this way they can't float the Overlord in and pop a Nydus.
When they're attempt to plant a Nydus internally fails they will most likely try and get a Nydus outside your base for quick transport (probably coming in with Hydra's) so make you sure prepare for those too, however by this time you should be making a sizeable army and if you decide to push out, bring a probe with you and wall off again incase they drop a random Nydus somewhere else for the counter.
That's my thought process and how i defend the 6-pool + later aggression, hope it helps.
|
On September 28 2011 22:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 21:55 ZenithM wrote:
And if a zerg has such a creep spread that you can warp just in front of him, he kinda deserves to die. Oh, and it's the same thing for protoss, if you let a zerg put his pool down at 6, then you...wait...deserve to lose 33% of the time, is that it?
wtf... so JulyZerg deserves to die because his creepspread sucks, because obviously he doesn't need it in his playstyle... It's like saying: if a protoss forgets to chronoboost his upgrades he deserves to die...If a Terran does a supply drop, he deserves to die...And I don't know in which butter league you play in, but before you're not at least Platinum, I really wouldn't start complaining about build order losses, especially if a FFE vs a 6pool isn't a such, as you can read in this thread and see in pro games. It just cripples you to sacrificing the expansion attempt - and now don't tell me this is imbalanced! There is way more stuff in the game that cripples you way harder
Actually, it seems normal to lose (that's what I meant by "die" btw, I'm not wishing for anybody's death obviously...) if you don't use the game's fundamental mechanics, doesn't it? You watch your replay and say to yourself "Man, I must spend that chrono more", or "I must try not to get supply blocked" or "spread my creep better", that's how you get better, you don't have to expect that everything you do will be magically forgiven. I'm not sure what I'm arguing against anyway... I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about pro games. Nobody loses to protoss cheese or allins nowadays, whereas many protosses die to terran and zerg's allins (sometimes even knowing they come).
Btw, if a build vs build situation end up crippling you in any way, yeah, it's called a build order loss, you don't have to gg immediately. So is Protoss FFE greedy? Maybe, that's what the metagame is pointing at right now. But 6pool remains the very definition of cheese and hope-based play. It's just sad to see it being that effective. It's not like it's a reactive all in, you just do that hoping to get a free win or at least advantage.
And I find it kind of funny that you draw the line at platinium. Basically 50% players are lower than that and 50% equal or higher. Statistically I might very well belong to the top half, right? But otherwise I agree with you, no need to argue any longer, 6pool isn't that strong of a cheese and there is much worse that can happen to you ingame indeed
|
well thats what it is, we zergs dont have to play reactive for once when we 6pool
|
first of all, im not really sure if 6pool is overpowered because neither i do it nor i face it more than once a week but i dont think it is from the little experience i have. second : protoss is the race with the most powerfull all-ins and timing attacks and i rage alot getting 5 or 6gated oder 3gate stargate all-in'ed^^
|
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg?
|
On September 28 2011 23:44 jirpy wrote:
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg?
Yes it would. OP, 6-pool is not overpowered there are plenty of good ways to deal with it that don't even require scouting it first.
|
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
^This
I thought the same thing about cannonrushes a while ago. i thought that is way to overpowered on certain maps. But fact is it isnt overpowered. I just played greedy FE against Toss. So when I stopped suddenly I didnt get cannonrushed anymore. That same thing goes with 6 pool ... its just a common counter to the metagame ... either u risk being greedy and get a economical advantage and might die to an early pool or you play a different not as greedy opening.
But it doesnt make Cannonrush or Early Pool op - you just have the choice to take the risk for a better eco.
|
I'm zerg and i double expand at start against protos. Can u help me deal with fast 2 gate zealot press with my build?
Thats pretty much what u are trying to do in this topic.
|
United States7166 Posts
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.
13 forge should be totally fine on shakuras. Are you doing the 2gate + forge wall? Scout on 9, 13 forge, 13 gate, 13 cannon, 13 gate. you dont need to pull any probes or cancel any buildings, except if you want to cancel the 2nd gate for a core before the gate finishes. the cannon should finish just at about the same time the lings arrive. Also I think you can squeeze a 14th probe there somewhere as well.
|
On September 28 2011 23:44 jirpy wrote:
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg?
It would be fine imo. The only times I lay a pool down before ovie is when I'm 6/7/8 pooling. The only build it would really mess with is the 11pool 18hatch build, but I'm sure we would adapt.
It would also make ZvZ much less frustrating.
|
Almost every game in the past few weeks of GSL was won by zergs, its a tough matchup. Start training now.
|
i honestly dont know how so many can lose to a 6 pool, its honestly quiet simple to hold if you think there might be a chance of a 6 pool and still go nexus first then imho u deserve to lose, thats my 2 cents,
If you lose to it going forge first its mis micro on your part, as you shuld be able to buy time foryourself with probes till your cannons are up
|
6pool is NOT overpowered. It is so easy to stop if you scout early. I believe you are just doing something wrong.
|
If you are in masters, you should have more probes than he has lings, micro like a boss, get a pylon and a cannon in your main.
Alternatively, you could learn not to expand so greedily or even build your base around your nexus.
Otherwise, balance whine ...
|
first of all, i just want to ask you onlyy one question,
if i am not wrong are you saying, i want to expend faster then a zerg (nearly all of the tosses do same at these days), and if a zerg all in me, i want to survive in any cases.
please let me be clear, if you think you can do this, yes will agree, but you should take any risk other then this fast expo. you should scout really early, 13forge timing, or try to block the ramp and cancel them accordingly agasint early pools, and make pylon any point in your base against nydus.
but really, i cannot understand this, i am high master on EU and i am zerg, and almost every toss ive played says zerg is imba because they cannot FE. really dude??? what should i get from it? maybe you heard of sc1 has the mechanics of 2 hatheries before even pool!. but agasint toss now we cannot expend before pool at all.
so that means the build orders do not stand by themselves. you should be modified by the metagame. if you see 18 zergs in a row and 16of them do some kind of all ins. just blindly prepare for all in. and you win at least 16/18 vZ games. this is sc2/
|
6 pool is not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination. If you lose to it, it means you're cutting corners or you're bad.
Don't complete the wall-in, build in your main with a cannon in your mineral lines and use your probes to screen the cannon as it completes. Micro hurt probes away so they don't get killed when you block for your cannon. Continue Probe production, transition into 3 gate expand (or whatever other build you want). Play standard from there with an economic advantage.
|
Send out a 2nd scouting probe, pros do it all the time, why wouldnt you?
|
On September 28 2011 16:36 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/ You don't have an advantage in that situation though, it's pretty much dead even, and if you made any mistakes, or you scout 2nd position, or you pylon/cannon in the main are just a little late... You lose. Assuming you it all perfect, you end up even-ahead 2-4 workers depending on how many lings he made after the first 6 or so...
No you're miles ahead in this position, the zerg economy off a 6 pool is terrible, at the time the Zerg has 7 drones you should have around double at the least.
|
United States1823 Posts
So what are people's opinions on the best follow-up after you defend a 6-pool with a cannon in the mineral lines? The zerg doesn't seem too far behind in that scenario and is often expecting a 4-gate counter.
|
Canada13389 Posts
I wouldn't say its overpowered so much as Forge FE is risky. Even if they dont 6 pool, walling yourself in and being unable to scout is problematic. The Zerg gets a fast 3rd that is saturated by the time you can mount any real attack if you forge FE. Likewise if they stay one base they can do a huge roach bust which unless you scout really early on means you wont have enough cannons up to defend.
Its starting to look like Forge FE might not be the safest thing to do after all but Im only basing this off of the fact that so many zergs are crushing forge FE protoss players in tournaments nowadays.
|
On September 28 2011 16:15 Torte de Lini wrote:
Scout properly and don't cut corners. Make sure I actually expanded (I baneling bust when I see lazy scouting), make sure to scout the close positions first as well (I 8-pool on FFE).
when do you scout? how can you do a 8 pool if you are probably going to scout a FFE at like 15 supply. There are so many other builds which punish a forge fast expand without replying on 6 pooling every game.
|
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build.
|
On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build.
You're naive if you think it's that simple.
|
On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build.
So true... A FFE is worse off than a 1/2gate expand assuming both hold the 6pool because you will miss attack timings and cannot put pressure on a good zerg who will most likely get fast third since you have no offensive capabilities. The reaction to 6pool is pretty straightforward, I'm pretty sure 6pools are only capable of giving build order losses and nothing else since you can hold with a 13 gate or a 13 forge with easy.
|
On September 29 2011 01:49 Complete wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build. You're naive if you think it's that simple.
And you're bad if you think it's not.
|
On September 29 2011 01:50 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:49 Complete wrote:On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build. You're naive if you think it's that simple. And you're bad if you think it's not.
Tell me master, what is the secret to a simple 6 pool defense with a 13 gateway build on a 4 player map where you scout zerg last?
|
Roach-ling 2 base all-in @ 5 minutes
Wow, can you provide replay of that? I'd love to use it in my team games! =D
|
Let me get this straight. So protosses want to not only expand faster than a zerg but they dont want the zerg to be able to thoroughly punish them for doing so with an all in cheese? I mean seriously wtf. You realize if you dont fe its an autowin right? The fact that a toss can even hold off a 6 pool when they fe is imbalanced.
|
I feel pretty frustrated sometimes that I can hold a 6-pool, lose only a couple probes, and a few minutes later Zerg is back to even or ahead with me. It's hardly an auto-win to defend 6-pool, although I think it ought to be. It's a legit macro build against forge FE, in my opinion, because it prevents the fast expand. It forces protoss to get an expand later and lets Zerg drone like crazy because he has Protoss contained in his base for a fairly long time. Zerg has to worry about counter all-ins with void rays and other things, but as long as they hold that they're not dead at all. Of course maybe I just don't understand the followup when defending 6-pool off FFE.
|
On September 29 2011 00:21 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 23:44 jirpy wrote:
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg? It would be fine imo. The only times I lay a pool down before ovie is when I'm 6/7/8 pooling. The only build it would really mess with is the 11pool 18hatch build, but I'm sure we would adapt. It would also make ZvZ much less frustrating.
I personally don't ever pool before OL, but it would also mean that Protoss doesn't have to worry about that possibility anymore. I'd imagine that would lead to earlier Nexus timings.
I dunno. I don't think we should have the very early game always 100% safe. Might as well have everyone start the game with an expo, instead (in SC3 maybe?  ).
|
On September 29 2011 03:01 quillian wrote:Wow, can you provide replay of that? I'd love to use it in my team games! =D
sorry my bad, i ment either 1 base roach-ling around 6 minutes, or 2 base between 8-9 minutes.
It seems 5 minutes because you dont have a lot of units when u FFE that early ;P
(I can hold that crap now tho, just scout + lots of cannons)
as for the 6pool, i just double scout and can usually finish my FFE walloff with a cannon. If i cant, pylon + cannon in mineral line will do
|
I'm sorry but the whole premise of this debate is wrong and logically flawed. This is equivalent to asking "is 14 gas/pool overpowered because I can't make nothing but probes until 20 food before building a gateway". If your build is vulnerable to a late-scouted six pool it is too greedy and you need to live with the consequences or solve the problem some either way (i.e. scout earlier). Protoss doesn't have a "right" to a particular build. This would be like a zerg player saying placement of cannons should be limited to within range of a Nexus because zerg has a "right" to hatch first. Gas/pool is more or less standard in zvp because of cannon rushing. If you need to be less greedy to beat a six pool then just get over it.
Unreal.
|
On September 28 2011 23:44 jirpy wrote:
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg?
The issue isn't building an ovie before pool, it's mineral cost.
Supply depot + barracks = 250 minerals
Pylon + gateway = 250 minerals
Drone + spawning pool = 250 minerals
Now, one of the reasons the 6 pool is a better cheese than just rushing for the fastest possible gateway or rax is that you don't actually need to mine an extra 50 minerals to cover the cost of the drone, since you start with 6 of them. So really, if you're going to cheese, the spawning pool only costs 200 minerals. If you're going to keep building drones and play a macro game, it's 250 like all the other initial buildings.
|
On September 29 2011 01:53 Complete wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:50 tehemperorer wrote:On September 29 2011 01:49 Complete wrote:On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build. You're naive if you think it's that simple. And you're bad if you think it's not. Tell me master, what is the secret to a simple 6 pool defense with a 13 gateway build on a 4 player map where you scout zerg last?
I literally told you in the post of mine you flamed. Pull 8 probes, chrono your zealot. Hold position a probe at your wallin. Even if you scout him last, you will scout him before the lings are at your base, and even if you somehow don't, it doesn't take any foresight to pull 8 probes.
|
Yeah well you do the fastest expand possible, while he does the fastest rush possible... There would be a serious gap in skill if you win.
|
Yup 6 pool is overpowered.
I'll be sure to drop Nestea a line telling him to 6p all his ZvPs.
But seriously, seriously? You can't expect to FFE with nexus first and NOT lose to 6 pool. That's not how it works at all. You forge on 13, and always make your second pylon in a position where you can put a cannon in your mineral line for 6p. Then you are ahead for a while, and Zerg tries to break even with fast queen and expo.
I would suggest chronoing out 3 zealots after you hold it off while re making your forge, then nexus, to scout the follow up (Zerg could be baneling busting instead of expanding) and to force more lings so you can stay even more ahead.
6p is auto win against nexus first greedy tosses, in the same way that 11/11 rax is auto win against 15h/16p greedy Zergs.
|
6 pool isn't overpowered in the sense that most people think. The current "problem" with 6 pool comes out of the fact that Blizzard is attempting to balance for the highest skilled players.
The problem is 6 pool is an autowin if not scouted, but unlike top levels of play, it's not an autoloss if it is. A protoss player who scouts 6 pool and attempts to defend with a chrono'd zealot + probes can still easily lose the game if he micros badly. This fact is amplified by the fact that the 6 pooler likely 6 pools in most games and has tons and tons of practice doing the 6 pool, while the defending player has far less practice defending it. So even though the defender has the theoretical advantage, the 6 pooler has a lot more practice to come out ahead anyways.
Likewise, pylon + cannon in minerals doesn't autowin you the game against a competent 6 pooler. Do you know how to stutter step a zealot to massacre slow lings without getting surrounded and losing it? If you don't, he will still easily win as those 6-8 lings alone can now prevent you from getting any gas until you have 2 zealots out. You have to know the right time to start the assimilator that you can have the zealot out and the lings chased off before they can tear it down. Players not knowing stuff like this tips the balance in the cheesers' favor. Remember, he only needs to win 51% of his games to advance.
|
On September 29 2011 00:23 peppilepew wrote:
i honestly dont know how so many can lose to a 6 pool, its honestly quiet simple to hold if you think there might be a chance of a 6 pool and still go nexus first then imho u deserve to lose, thats my 2 cents,
If you lose to it going forge first its mis micro on your part, as you shuld be able to buy time foryourself with probes till your cannons are up
+1
User was warned for this post
|
lotta protoss QQ in here, as a zerg player i never, ever 6 pool.
it's actually a bad build that rely's on some serious blunders by the protoss player before you even come close to winning with it.
heres what i know watching the hundreds of GSL, MLG, GSTL, and dreamhack tourny's.
if you FFE,
scout on 9
if you see him first position and he's doing a standard pool or hatch first opening you can nexus first.
if you dont scout him you go Forge then nexus, to be safe and allow cannons to be put down in time.
if you scout second position and he's not there, immediately send a probe to your wall ready to throw down some emergency buildings.
if you scout him last and he's playing standard your perfectly safe.
when you scout him last position and he's 6 pool'd cancel the nexus, sack your wall pylon and forge and get a cannon up in your mineral line.
also get a gateway up near your main nexus dont try to get one from your wall, thats just silly.
you should be able to do this cause you'll have a pylon nearby.
even having to cancel your nexus and loosing a pylon AND a forge you'll still be able to hold with maybe loosing one probe, maybe not even loosing one.
now lets do the tally.
the economic damage of a 6 pool to a zerg player is pretty dam substantial.
100 from cancelled nexus, 100 from your pylon, the 150 from your forge and what the 30 ish MAYBE (if you scout it late) from your gateway on the wall cancel and lets add in one probe as well.
so your looking at a nice 400 minerals lost.
you come out ahead.
simple as that.
a much bigger theat then the 6 pool is the proxy hatch in your main. similar to spanishiwa, catz ect. but if you scout thoroughly you'll be fine.
any PROtoss players wanna correct me on this?
i am but a humble zerg but this is the way i see people hold this build easily every day.
|
I watched huk hold a ffe vs 6pool and i haven't lost since. get the forge and cannon down and then whatever other buildings you can, maybe even around the cannon sometimes, and then pull 90% of probes and attack the lings while the cannon finishes. don't let them into your base or away from the cannon. when probes get hurt pull the weak one to the back by clicking minerals and then cycle through to attack again. when cannon finishes just expand or do w/e and win. i saved a replay, pm me if you really want to see 
|
Just stopping by to comment on your point on scouting.
A 6 pool is about half as effective if the Zerglings don't find your base almost immediately. If you're being successfully six pool'd and yet are unable to scout it then something is amiss. Either the Zergs you're facing are extremely lucky in where they send their Lings, or you're missing something key like an early drone scout.
|
Uh, you don't need to send 2 probes or anything these guys are saying.
Build a pylon in your mineral line. make 1 or 2 cannons accordingly. Juggle lings with probes til cannons finish. Win? I've never lost to a 6 pool while FEing. 6 pooling is actually a terrible build and every good zerg knows it. 10 pool is much better imo.
|
(P master 850 pts)
Yea I see a shitload of 6 pools on the ladder recently, very hard to stop.
|
On September 30 2011 00:16 Legion710 wrote:
Uh, you don't need to send 2 probes or anything these guys are saying.
Build a pylon in your mineral line. make 1 or 2 cannons accordingly. Juggle lings with probes til cannons finish. Win? I've never lost to a 6 pool while FEing. 6 pooling is actually a terrible build and every good zerg knows it. 10 pool is much better imo.
Right now on ladder at least in my MMR area, if you're facing Zerg as Protoss on a 4-player map, (three spots to scout) at least half the Zergs will open on 6, 7, or 8 pool.
I'd say close to 4/5 Zergs do not even expand anymore. It's 6,7,8 pool, 1 base baneling bust, 1 base roach, 1 base nydus, or ~6 drones at the expo and then try to break you with roach/ling spam from both hatcheries. The "standard" 14 pool opening is becoming virtually nonexistent, Zergs that want to macro are generally opening on 11 overpool, 18 hatch.
|
6 pool is a fairly terrible build so long as the protoss isn't going nexus before forge. I have occasionally used 6 lings off an 11 pool to troll the toss FFE, if it does enough damage initially I've occasionally been able to just rally lings and win - if not (which is usually the case) I'll just use my super early queen to spam drones and catch up economically.
|
So... Early aggression is strong against super early expansions?
Who would have thought.
Yeah 6 Pool is strong against Forge FE, hell its a BO win against Nexus first but its up to you to scout.
|
That's like saying that cannon rush is Overpowered cause you lose if you 15 hatch and doesent scout it fast.
2gate proxy outside the main is also OP if you hatch first, two 11 rax is also strong if you hatch first and doesent scout it fast.
Something must be wrong, oh wait. You should be able to get punished if you are trying to be greedy.
|
On September 29 2011 17:04 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:53 Complete wrote:On September 29 2011 01:50 tehemperorer wrote:On September 29 2011 01:49 Complete wrote:On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build. You're naive if you think it's that simple. And you're bad if you think it's not. Tell me master, what is the secret to a simple 6 pool defense with a 13 gateway build on a 4 player map where you scout zerg last? I literally told you in the post of mine you flamed. Pull 8 probes, chrono your zealot. Hold position a probe at your wallin. Even if you scout him last, you will scout him before the lings are at your base, and even if you somehow don't, it doesn't take any foresight to pull 8 probes.
-8 probes can't take 6 lings
-zealot isn't out before lings are in your base
-pylon powering your gate is dead before zealot finishes
I'm not saying it's overpowered, but you're certainly not offering a 'simple solution'.
|
On September 30 2011 01:58 Complete wrote:
-8 probes can't take 6 lings
-zealot isn't out before lings are in your base
-pylon powering your gate is dead before zealot finishes
I'm not saying it's overpowered, but you're certainly not offering a 'simple solution'.
I'm not an expert at this but i believe you're supposed to "dance" with those 8 probes: you threaten to attack the lings every time he goes for the pylon, and pull back if he turns to engage the probes, in this way you can delay damage to the pylon and get a zealot out at which point you can fight them.
edit: or start building a 2nd pylon if for some reason you can't save the first in time
|
Every GSL PvZ I've seen with a 6pool involves the P forgetting about the wall-off (and expo) and putting a cannon in his mineral line. Maybe trying to hold the expo is just too greedy against a 6 pool?
|
Probes are actually more powerful than zerglings in my experience, GM every region here. So what you do is if you see the initial 6 lings get through your wall, all you have to do is pull 2 probes and they should handle it pretty well. Just remember to keep a probe : zergling ratio of 1:3
|
Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 30 2011 02:37 TaurinE wrote:
Probes are actually more powerful than zerglings in my experience, GM every region here. So what you do is if you see the initial 6 lings get through your wall, all you have to do is pull 2 probes and they should handle it pretty well. Just remember to keep a probe : zergling ratio of 1:3
This is literally not correct. Zerglings are faster than probes, and attack more quickly, with only negligibly fewer hit points. You definitely need to pull more probes than this to fight zerglings directly.
|
On September 30 2011 02:37 TaurinE wrote:
Probes are actually more powerful than zerglings in my experience, GM every region here. So what you do is if you see the initial 6 lings get through your wall, all you have to do is pull 2 probes and they should handle it pretty well. Just remember to keep a probe : zergling ratio of 1:3
... do you mean 2 probes for every ling?
Regardless yes all races can hold 6 pool with the gatherers alone, just need to be micro'd well
An excellent example of this is Naniwa vs July in AOL
|
Zerglings are actually unable to use the attack command when they are on the ramp post 1.4 so if you hold position 2 probes at the top of it with your buildings for a wall off the lings can't kill them.
|
On September 30 2011 02:37 TaurinE wrote:
Probes are actually more powerful than zerglings in my experience, GM every region here. So what you do is if you see the initial 6 lings get through your wall, all you have to do is pull 2 probes and they should handle it pretty well. Just remember to keep a probe : zergling ratio of 1:3
On September 30 2011 02:58 TaurinE wrote:
Zerglings are actually unable to use the attack command when they are on the ramp post 1.4 so if you hold position 2 probes at the top of it with your buildings for a wall off the lings can't kill them.
yous trollin
|
On September 29 2011 01:50 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:49 Complete wrote:On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build. You're naive if you think it's that simple. And you're bad if you think it's not.
this entire thread is about 6pool vs FFE not vs gateway first...in that case its easy wall off + chrono zlot + pull probe = win.
|
About the idea of probe zergling dancing:
Can't the zerg just surround your pylon and then hold position? if your probes get near they'll be attacked automatically, otherwise they'll immediately switch back to the pylon.
oh shit did i just make 6 pool overpowered?
|
on big maps like tal'darim, if you don't find them on the first place you scout, send another probe to the would-be last base you scout with one probe. that eliminates the problem of scouting the 6 pool last.
|
No I don't think its op. One cannon in your mineral line is an easy defense and allows you to pull WAY ahead economically.
Sure its more powerful if you don't scout it first, just as powerful as when a zerg can't scout that a protoss is 4gating.
|
Can't the zerg just surround your pylon and then hold position? if your probes get near they'll be attacked automatically, otherwise they'll immediately switch back to the pylon.
If you pull enough probes (8+) you can easily pick them off one by one if they do this, you really have to attack with all your lings, in which case they can retreat.
|
On September 29 2011 06:10 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 23:44 jirpy wrote:
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg? The issue isn't building an ovie before pool, it's mineral cost. Supply depot + barracks = 250 minerals Pylon + gateway = 250 minerals Drone + spawning pool = 250 minerals Now, one of the reasons the 6 pool is a better cheese than just rushing for the fastest possible gateway or rax is that you don't actually need to mine an extra 50 minerals to cover the cost of the drone, since you start with 6 of them. So really, if you're going to cheese, the spawning pool only costs 200 minerals. If you're going to keep building drones and play a macro game, it's 250 like all the other initial buildings.
You cannot compare the cost of the spawning pool, a tech building, to the production facilities of the other races. The spawning pool gives you production of three production facilities instantly.
It feels a bit unfair that the Zerg is allowed to have a medium risk, high reward opener while Protoss does not have such a thing and got crippeled for any early pressure. I think the Overlord first requirement would not harm any of the matchups but would allow for better PvZ experience overall.
|
I don't necessarily think 6pool is imba... But I do think that perhaps its a little too easy for the zerg to macro up assuming the 6pool fails..
They spoke about this on SOTG or ITG I forget which one. That many zergs are 6pooling more often as an opener and then droning slightly longer into the game. For something that used to be an all-in, I dont actually think it is anymore.
/2 cents
|
It feels a bit unfair that the Zerg is allowed to have a medium risk, high reward opener while Protoss does not have such a thing and got crippeled for any early pressure. I think the Overlord first requirement would not harm any of the matchups but would allow for better PvZ experience overall.
Last time I checked Forge FE still destroys hatch first builds, but you're right, it's not comparable to 6 pool because that's a no risk high reward build
|
On September 30 2011 05:45 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +It feels a bit unfair that the Zerg is allowed to have a medium risk, high reward opener while Protoss does not have such a thing and got crippeled for any early pressure. I think the Overlord first requirement would not harm any of the matchups but would allow for better PvZ experience overall. Last time I checked Forge FE still destroys hatch first builds, but you're right, it's not comparable to 6 pool because that's a no risk high reward build
Being able to Forge FE is highly map depended. Being able to punish a hatch first build with Cannons is aswell map and scouting luck depended. Furthermore you have to invest at least 400 minerals to denie a hatch first which does not win you the game automatically. So how exactly is FFE no risk, high reward at all?
The next big difference is that 6 pool is a gamble while FFE with cannons against hatch first is a reaction to a specific scouted ingame situation.
|
If u place a cannon by your mineral line a good zerg can snipe ur assimilators nd forge/pylon while they are droning up nd expanding, ull need two cannons. But 2=300 and thats basically behind since u lost 150forge+100 pylon + a few probes and late on warp tech bcuz no gas
1400+ toss here
|
Being able to Forge FE is highly map depended. Being able to punish a hatch first build with Cannons is aswell map and scouting luck depended
6 pool isnt?
Furthermore you have to invest at least 400 minerals to denie a hatch first which does not win you the game automatically. So how exactly is FFE no risk, high reward at all?
No risk because you don't commit to the cannon rush unless you get lucky scouting. Zero risk. Nada. 6 pool is a gamble because you commit to it before, cannon rush isn't
The next big difference is that 6 pool is a gamble while FFE with cannons against hatch first is a reaction to a specific scouted ingame situation.
You're right, 6 pool should be made stronger against gateway first builds so it's not such a gamble. Kind of unfair that zerg have to gamble to take down a protoss FE while protoss can do the same without taking any sort of risk whatsoever.
|
Blizzard has removed 7 rax reaper rush because of how hard it is to scout in time.. even though it was easily defendable as Protoss if they get a fast stalker.....(need supply depot before barracks) Blizzard has nerfed zealot rushes (zealot time from 33 to 38), and has reduced barracks time by 5 sec (to nerf fast marine bunker rushes).... yet they have done nothing to limit how insanely fast zergs can get lings out... often unscoutable if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. In Blizzard's mind, this should be nerfed just like the rest of the early game stuff. Terran needs suppy depot before barracks. Protoss needs pylon before gateway.... Zerg should need to make an OL before pool.
|
Blizzard has removed 7 rax reaper rush because of how hard it is to scout in time.. even though it was easily defendable as Protoss if they get a fast stalker.....(need supply depot before barracks) Blizzard has nerfed zealot rushes (zealot time from 33 to 38), and has reduced barracks time by 5 sec (to nerf fast marine bunker rushes).... yet they have done nothing to limit how insanely fast zergs can get lings out... often unscoutable if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. In Blizzard's mind, this should be nerfed just like the rest of the early game stuff. Terran needs suppy depot before barracks. Protoss needs pylon before gateway.... Zerg should need to make an OL before pool.
Yes, that's how balance works in this game. Protoss and terran were nerfed, so zerg should be nerfed as well. An eye for an eye, right?
*Facepalm*
|
Top master zerg here. Find a zerg friend, and practice. Play normally, and "pretend" like you scout it last. Then learn to respond. I promise you should be able to hold it every time. Again to reiterate, if it's a 4player map and you're FFEing, you have to put the forge down first if you haven't scouted them yet.
|
No. Just forge first if you don't scout first try
|
play standard 3 gate sentry and ur safe . you can be safe if you go forge , cannon , nexus aswel .
|
On September 30 2011 06:26 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +Blizzard has removed 7 rax reaper rush because of how hard it is to scout in time.. even though it was easily defendable as Protoss if they get a fast stalker.....(need supply depot before barracks) Blizzard has nerfed zealot rushes (zealot time from 33 to 38), and has reduced barracks time by 5 sec (to nerf fast marine bunker rushes).... yet they have done nothing to limit how insanely fast zergs can get lings out... often unscoutable if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. In Blizzard's mind, this should be nerfed just like the rest of the early game stuff. Terran needs suppy depot before barracks. Protoss needs pylon before gateway.... Zerg should need to make an OL before pool. Yes, that's how balance works in this game. Protoss and terran were nerfed, so zerg should be nerfed as well. An eye for an eye, right? *Facepalm*
You're obviously an idiot, as you completely failed to comprehend my valid point. This has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with nerfing strategies that are considered to be "unscoutable in time for a player to react". I'm pretty sure no one actually thinks zealots coming out at 33 seconds is too strong, but it led to, as Blizzard stated, an insufficient amount of time for the opponent to react if you were 2 gate proxy rushing him (in PvP). The same goes for the supply depot before barracks reasoning. The fact that it just so happens that Zerg still has the ability to execute strategies that are often unable to be "scouted with a sufficient amount of time to react" is a design flaw by blizzard.
This has nothing to do with nerfing races, but nerfing those type of strategies. Agree with it or not, I'd think any reasonably intelligent person unlike yourself would agree that Blizzard should either remove all such strategies equally, or none at all... for a balanced game at least.
|
You're obviously an idiot, as you completely failed to comprehend my valid point. This has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with nerfing strategies that are considered to be "unscoutable in time for a player to react". I'm pretty sure no one actually thinks zealots coming out at 33 seconds is too strong, but it led to, as Blizzard stated, an insufficient amount of time for the opponent to react if you were 2 gate proxy rushing him (in PvP). The same goes for the supply depot before barracks reasoning. The fact that it just so happens that Zerg still has the ability to execute strategies that are often unable to be "scouted with a sufficient amount of time to react" is a design flaw by blizzard.
This has nothing to do with nerfing races, but nerfing those type of strategies. Agree with it or not, I'd think any reasonably intelligent person unlike yourself would agree that Blizzard should either remove all such strategies equally, or none at all... for a balanced game at least.
Wow, immediately dropping down the insults because you made a flawed point? Pathetic.
6 pool is scoutable on time, easily, there is no wall between you and the pool, nothing blocking you whatsoever, and anything short of a nexus first will allow you to prepare and defend a 6 pool without blindly adjusting it.
WAY, WAY different from the other builds, that were (nearly) completely unscoutable that counter a vast majority of builds, they aren't specific builds that counter one specific variation of one specific build that would only kill you if you took the biggest risk you could possibly take (nexus first knowing you cannot scout on time, aka not on the first scouted spot).
|
On September 30 2011 06:48 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +
You're obviously an idiot, as you completely failed to comprehend my valid point. This has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with nerfing strategies that are considered to be "unscoutable in time for a player to react". I'm pretty sure no one actually thinks zealots coming out at 33 seconds is too strong, but it led to, as Blizzard stated, an insufficient amount of time for the opponent to react if you were 2 gate proxy rushing him (in PvP). The same goes for the supply depot before barracks reasoning. The fact that it just so happens that Zerg still has the ability to execute strategies that are often unable to be "scouted with a sufficient amount of time to react" is a design flaw by blizzard.
This has nothing to do with nerfing races, but nerfing those type of strategies. Agree with it or not, I'd think any reasonably intelligent person unlike yourself would agree that Blizzard should either remove all such strategies equally, or none at all... for a balanced game at least.
Wow, immediately dropping down the insults because you made a flawed point? Pathetic. 6 pool is scoutable on time, easily, there is no wall between you and the pool, nothing blocking you whatsoever, and anything short of a nexus first will allow you to prepare and defend a 6 pool without blindly adjusting it. WAY, WAY different from the other builds, that were (nearly) completely unscoutable that counter a vast majority of builds, they aren't specific builds that counter one specific variation of one specific build that would only kill you if you took the biggest risk you could possibly take (nexus first knowing you cannot scout on time, aka not on the first scouted spot).
6 pool isn't scoutable in time in a lot of cases on 4 player maps. You obviously don't even play this game at a high level. Even when it fails, the zerg isn't behind, as seen in a lot of pro matches. That is more than enough justification for something to be changed. The other builds were no less scoutable than 6 pool is, and 6 pool comes far earlier than any of those builds did. 6 pool is far harder to stop and be ahead than 7 rax reaper or zealot rushing ever was.
What are you even talking about a wall? There is no wall off in any of the builds I mentioned. Another reading comprehension fail... just quit now.
|
Well you take that risk if you fe. we zerg do this allot and we get punished by it to. for example a 2 rax/proxy rax into bunker rush. or cannons at the nat etc. you can't really say broken or nerf because you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar right ?
and if what your saying is really true follow this advice.
if you just build a full wall and cannon up you win all those games.
|
6 pool isn't scoutable in time in a lot of cases on 4 player maps. You obviously don't even play this game at a high level. Even when it fails, the zerg isn't behind, as seen in a lot of pro matches. That is more than enough justification for something to be changed. The other builds were no less scoutable than 6 pool is, and 6 pool comes far earlier than any of those builds did. 6 pool is far harder to stop and be ahead than 7 rax reaper or zealot rushing ever was.
Define "fails", then? 2 gating or 2 raxing can "fail", as in, not kill anything and you'll still be even if the opponent cuts enough workers or you kill a pylon/forge.
And you cannot scout 6 pool before you toss down a nexus first, so maybe not do the riskiest build available every game, as I said before, every safe build prepares for it automatically. Nexus first when you know he's not at the first spot is not safe, neither is hatchery first on Tal'Darim when you don't know whether or not he's doing a forge FE.
You don't have to do 15 nexus every game.
And drop the condescending attitude, it's really only making you look like a little kid that's raging because he lost to a 6 pool a couple of times (although that's probably the truth)
What are you even talking about a wall? There is no wall off in any of the builds I mentioned. Another reading comprehension fail... just quit now.
Proxy gate is hidden and terrans usually have their base walled off.
|
On September 30 2011 07:01 DarkEnergy wrote:
Well you take that risk if you fe. we zerg do this allot and we get punished by it to. for example a 2 rax/proxy rax into bunker rush. or cannons at the nat etc. you can't really say broken or nerf because you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar right ?
and if what your saying is really true follow this advice.
if you just build a full wall and cannon up you win all those games.
Lol Blizzard just "nerfed" bunker rushing slightly because of how good it was. I highly doubt any of you people mentioning stuff like "just wall" have ever even played Protoss or have any inclination about how fast the lings come. You actually lose if you wall off completely... your zealot can't get on the outside to attack lings and you lose your gateway. Also going forge first and building a bunch of cannons behind a wall off for your main puts you behind the zerg economically, as he is free to drone/expand.
|
On September 30 2011 07:03 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
And you cannot scout 6 pool before you toss down a nexus first, so maybe not do the riskiest build available every game, as I said before, every safe build prepares for it automatically. Nexus first when you know he's not at the first spot is not safe, neither is hatchery first on Tal'Darim when you don't know whether or not he's doing a forge FE.
You don't have to do 15 nexus every game.
And drop the condescending attitude, it's really only making you look like a little kid that's raging because he lost to a 6 pool a couple of times (although that's probably the truth)
you can't wall off in time to stop a 6 pool on taldarim so your point doesn't make sense at all.
go nexus first in 90% of the games to stay even with Zerg, or choose the less potent opening just because you might have a better winrate against 10% of the games played, while having an inherent economic disadvantege in the other 90% does not make sense.
|
On September 30 2011 07:03 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +6 pool isn't scoutable in time in a lot of cases on 4 player maps. You obviously don't even play this game at a high level. Even when it fails, the zerg isn't behind, as seen in a lot of pro matches. That is more than enough justification for something to be changed. The other builds were no less scoutable than 6 pool is, and 6 pool comes far earlier than any of those builds did. 6 pool is far harder to stop and be ahead than 7 rax reaper or zealot rushing ever was. Define "fails", then? 2 gating or 2 raxing can "fail", as in, not kill anything and you'll still be even if the opponent cuts enough workers or you kill a pylon/forge. And you cannot scout 6 pool before you toss down a nexus first, so maybe not do the riskiest build available every game, as I said before, every safe build prepares for it automatically. Nexus first when you know he's not at the first spot is not safe, neither is hatchery first on Tal'Darim when you don't know whether or not he's doing a forge FE.You don't have to do 15 nexus every game.And drop the condescending attitude, it's really only making you look like a little kid that's raging because he lost to a 6 pool a couple of times (although that's probably the truth) Show nested quote +What are you even talking about a wall? There is no wall off in any of the builds I mentioned. Another reading comprehension fail... just quit now. Proxy gate is hidden and terrans usually have their base walled off.
What are you talking about you fool. When have I mentioned Nexus first at all? I'm talking about the build in general. It is stronger even against gate first builds than any of the cheese that blizzard nerfed ever was, yet here it remains.
|
What are you talking about you fool. When have I mentioned Nexus first at all? I'm talking about the build in general. It is stronger even against gate first builds than any of the cheese that blizzard nerfed ever was, yet here it remains.
Link me a game of a pro losing to a 6 pool after doing anything but a nexus first build (or forge FE with a later than 12/13 forge)
|
People seem to be confusing protoss with terran. Walling off completely isn't very viable in a lot of situations, since this early we have a zealot like 1/2 done when the lings come, let alone anything that can actually shoot from behind the wall. Basically if you spawn a 4 player map and you scout the zerg last, you are most likely in line for a loss, even at the gm level. If you scout it 2nd, you can still quite easily lose. 6 pool is probably the lowest skill build in the game, and comes earlier than any other build in existence, yet it still remains.
|
On September 30 2011 07:00 Zanzabarr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 06:48 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
You're obviously an idiot, as you completely failed to comprehend my valid point. This has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with nerfing strategies that are considered to be "unscoutable in time for a player to react". I'm pretty sure no one actually thinks zealots coming out at 33 seconds is too strong, but it led to, as Blizzard stated, an insufficient amount of time for the opponent to react if you were 2 gate proxy rushing him (in PvP). The same goes for the supply depot before barracks reasoning. The fact that it just so happens that Zerg still has the ability to execute strategies that are often unable to be "scouted with a sufficient amount of time to react" is a design flaw by blizzard.
This has nothing to do with nerfing races, but nerfing those type of strategies. Agree with it or not, I'd think any reasonably intelligent person unlike yourself would agree that Blizzard should either remove all such strategies equally, or none at all... for a balanced game at least.
Wow, immediately dropping down the insults because you made a flawed point? Pathetic. 6 pool is scoutable on time, easily, there is no wall between you and the pool, nothing blocking you whatsoever, and anything short of a nexus first will allow you to prepare and defend a 6 pool without blindly adjusting it. WAY, WAY different from the other builds, that were (nearly) completely unscoutable that counter a vast majority of builds, they aren't specific builds that counter one specific variation of one specific build that would only kill you if you took the biggest risk you could possibly take (nexus first knowing you cannot scout on time, aka not on the first scouted spot). 6 pool isn't scoutable in time in a lot of cases on 4 player maps. You obviously don't even play this game at a high level. Even when it fails, the zerg isn't behind, as seen in a lot of pro matches. That is more than enough justification for something to be changed. The other builds were no less scoutable than 6 pool is, and 6 pool comes far earlier than any of those builds did. 6 pool is far harder to stop and be ahead than 7 rax reaper or zealot rushing ever was. What are you even talking about a wall? There is no wall off in any of the builds I mentioned. Another reading comprehension fail... just quit now.
6 pool leaves you ahead, as shown in pro matches?
What pro matches? I don't think you're lying, I just can't think of any. Any pro matches involving a 6 pool I can think of resulted in losses to the 6-pooler. Also, aside from the 6 pool virtually ending the game there, I can't possibly see how the Zerg could get even close to ahead. You sacrifice a ton of larva (and thereby drones) to get that pool out, meaning that it can't be anything as simple as make six zerglings -> make drones, especially because you shouldn't be able to afford a queen for a while.
Also, 6 pooling on a 4 player map where neither player has found each other is just as much a risk on the zerg's part, as the more time it takes him to find his opponents base, the more time his opponent has to prepare, whether he knows he's preparing for it or not. Contrary to popular belief, 6 zerglings cannot kill infinity workers.
|
United States8476 Posts
|
Having to double scout on ever 4 player map that early in the game because of the possibility of 6-pool is ridiculous. It hurts your economy bad if they are doing any other build. Blizzard has removed strategies from the game that require far less preparation.
|
Having to double scout on ever 4 player map that early in the game because of the possibility of 6-pool is ridiculous. Blizzard has removed strategies from the game that require far less preparation.
Link me a game of a pro losing to a 6 pool after doing anything but a nexus first build (or forge FE with a later than 12/13 forge)
The problem currently is pretty much only on one map, doing one specific strategy. Hardly "every 4 player map". Talk to me when pro players start having issues with 6 pools outside of that map/strategy. And please don't think you know more than them about the game and don't think they haven't tried 6 pooling on other maps. It's just not viable as a normal strategy and is extremely risky.
|
United States8476 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:18 Zanzabarr wrote:
Having to double scout on ever 4 player map that early in the game because of the possibility of 6-pool is ridiculous. Blizzard has removed strategies from the game that require far less preparation.
You're ridiculous.
|
I've seen iNcontroL lose to 6-pool going gateway first probably 10+ times on his stream alone... I've seen it in the GSL, but I do not have a pass for replays, and I doubt you do either.
|
On September 30 2011 07:06 Zanzabarr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 07:01 DarkEnergy wrote:
Well you take that risk if you fe. we zerg do this allot and we get punished by it to. for example a 2 rax/proxy rax into bunker rush. or cannons at the nat etc. you can't really say broken or nerf because you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar right ?
and if what your saying is really true follow this advice.
if you just build a full wall and cannon up you win all those games. Lol Blizzard just "nerfed" bunker rushing slightly because of how good it was. I highly doubt any of you people mentioning stuff like "just wall" have ever even played Protoss or have any inclination about how fast the lings come. You actually lose if you wall off completely... your zealot can't get on the outside to attack lings and you lose your gateway. Also going forge first and building a bunch of cannons behind a wall off for your main puts you behind the zerg economically, as he is free to drone/expand.
Gaaaah, this can't be true!
Against a 9 pool? Hell yeah! Way the hell behind economically!
Against a 6 pool? I have a damn-near-impossible time believing its true. You lose a ton of larva to get your pool out fast, can hardly afford a queen and even if you can you wouldn't yet be able to spend all the larva an inject would give you... you essentially delay even starting the game for minutes, so unless your opponent was afk making a sandwich instead of workers, I can't see how a well-handled 6 pool would leave the zerg economically ahead of your opponent, because you stunt your growth so damn much to make it happen in the first place.
I 9 pool a lot ZvP. The zerglings come out a ton later, but it happens at a timing that allows me to afford a queen and just drones behind it. By the time my zerglings get to his base, more often than not the worker count is around 20-15 in his favour. With a 6 pool, this difference should be even more pronounced, and with the way a zerg econ has the potential to gain and carry momentum, I can't see how not making workers for the first bunch of seconds would give you any hope of coming back economically.
|
The reason that slightly failed 6 pools can go into long games where the zerg can win is due to the complete inability for protoss to be aggressive after defending it, which is because of the large dependence protoss has on gas and higher tech to be effective.
|
I've seen iNcontroL lose to 6-pool going gateway first probably 10+ times on his stream alone... I've seen it in the GSL, but I do not have a pass for replays, and I doubt you do either.
Real pro please, not InControl. That guy loses to literally everything, lol. What's next, Husky losing to a 6 pool? Come back when there's actual evidence for imbalance or the build being impossible to stop, outside of pure speculation and crying about you losing to a build.
|
1k masters toss here. shakuras is an easy autowin against 6 pool. just put your first pylon down on the far side of the ramp. then 14 forge, gate, another pylon in the wall, and a cannon, and its gg. you just gotta remember to put the first pylon down at the top of the ramp on the side. if you want a rep of it i can send. but you should never worry about 6 pool on shakuras
|
On September 30 2011 07:25 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +I've seen iNcontroL lose to 6-pool going gateway first probably 10+ times on his stream alone... I've seen it in the GSL, but I do not have a pass for replays, and I doubt you do either. Real pro please, not InControl. That guy loses to literally everything, lol. What's next, Husky losing to a 6 pool? Come back when there's actual evidence for imbalance or the build being impossible to stop, outside of pure speculation and crying about you losing to a build.
So let me get this straight, unless they are in GSL code S, it doesn't count? Not only have I seen it there anyway, you completely miss the point again. Do you think Blizzard nerfed zealot time or 7 rax reaper because of the implications in code S?
6 pool can be unscoutable on 4 player maps... even 10 pool can be quite strong as it allows for both hard aggression of strong eco... both because of how fast a pool can be laid down with no pre-req.
|
well nobody is scared about six pools on shakuras because there are only 2 spawn locations...
|
The pure definition of something to be removed from the game, as I have stated many times for people who are a little slow in the head, is that it is very hard if not in some cases impossible to react to if RNG kicks in on a 4 player map with 4 spawn locations. Blizzard has nerfed builds that aren't even effective past gold league because of how early they come, yet they haven't touched 6 pool (despite the fact that it is still used very regularly in Grandmaster games, and even in the GSL).
|
6-7-8-9-10 is really OP, i mean it's retarded.
I dont know how many times when i have played a zerg in something like desert strike only to join a shatter temple custome to be zerg by a mistake.
i 7pool everytime and it's not even funny. Not lost a game with this tactic. And it have been vs diamond players.
I'm sure my timing is waaaay of consider that i barely do anything correct.
If i were to compare this with something like a bunker rush it's pretty retarded tbh, with a bunker rush i had to macro like crazy to keep my scv's alive to get the bunker up. aswell as getting my marines there safe aswell as building more scv's.
6pool is not compareable when i just rally them to the protoss base and wins :D
|
On September 30 2011 07:25 Zanzabarr wrote:
The reason that slightly failed 6 pools can go into long games where the zerg can win is due to the complete inability for protoss to be aggressive after defending it, which is because of the large dependence protoss has on gas and higher tech to be effective.
Uhh...
Hypothetical situation.
6 pool happens. Is defended without a billion casualties. Worker count is 8 for the zerg, and 12 for the protoss.
What's to stop the protoss from chronoboosting out a few (2-3, depending on how well the 6 pool was defended) zealots while constantly producing probes, then expanding behind the pressure when able?
Zerglings? If he's making zerglings, he's not making drones, and he really, really needs to make drones. Because you're already ahead in workers, you can afford to be extremely cost inefficient with your zealots, because that's what an econ advantage is there for.
Spine crawlers? Cost a drone and two opportunity drones, and could only prevent the zealots from running in and killing workers in the main, leaving the zealots to just chill and deny the natural. They're an effective defense, yes, but they would restrict the zerg to only moving out as fast as his creep spread, as well as costing quite a lot of money -and- possibly not being up in time.
Roaches? lol. Even just a geyser with two dudes mining it would absolutely kill the rest of the zerg econ, let alone a roach warren in any amount of time to defend Anything that costs gas is out of the question.
Again, I 9 pool quite a bit ZvP, and what I'm MOST afraid of is failing to do much of any damage with the 9 pool and being greeted by 2-3 zealots extremely quickly coming over to have their dirty psionic way with my attempted natural expansion. And again, this is with what should be LESS of an economic disadvantage than a 6 pool would have. Though those zealots are not likely to end the game, they are likely to disrupt me at a time where I really need to be making nothing but drones, and do so in a way that doesn't effectively cost the Protoss much (he's still safe on 1 base and making probes) but does cost the zerg something no matter what.
That said, Zealots are really friggin' slow. Though I dont think this means you can't use zealots to pressure after a failed 6 pool, I do think it'd be pertinent of blizzard to buff them to somewhere where they're not one of the slowest units in the game. I'm not sure why they're as slow as they are, and giving them even a slight boost to speed (2.35, maybe?) wouldn't make too much of a difference* but would allow protoss a bit more room to use them agressively early game.
(*that is, unless it totally screws PvT up with zealots being faster than unstimmed marines)
|
I find it funny that morons like BadgerBadger feel that the most skilless build in the game, the 6 pool, is completely fine in terms of one's ability to react to it in comparison to other builds that have been since removed or nerfed by Blizzard in the past. Mindless 6-pool is used quite regularily even at the GM league level.... it's nonsensical.
|
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool?
|
Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37014 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:30 freetgy wrote:
well nobody is scared about six pools on shakuras because there are only 2 spawn locations...
What? Shakuras is a 4 player map....
|
On September 30 2011 07:42 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 07:25 Zanzabarr wrote:
The reason that slightly failed 6 pools can go into long games where the zerg can win is due to the complete inability for protoss to be aggressive after defending it, which is because of the large dependence protoss has on gas and higher tech to be effective. Uhh... Hypothetical situation. 6 pool happens. Is defended without a billion casualties. Worker count is 8 for the zerg, and 12 for the protoss. What's to stop the protoss from chronoboosting out a few (2-3, depending on how well the 6 pool was defended) zealots while constantly producing probes, then expanding behind the pressure when able? Zerglings? If he's making zerglings, he's not making drones, and he really, really needs to make drones. Because you're already ahead in workers, you can afford to be extremely cost inefficient with your zealots, because that's what an econ advantage is there for. Spine crawlers? Cost a drone and two opportunity drones, and could only prevent the zealots from running in and killing workers in the main, leaving the zealots to just chill and deny the natural. They're an effective defense, yes, but they would restrict the zerg to only moving out as fast as his creep spread, as well as costing quite a lot of money -and- possibly not being up in time. Roaches? lol. Even just a geyser with two dudes mining it would absolutely kill the rest of the zerg econ, let alone a roach warren in any amount of time to defend Anything that costs gas is out of the question. Again, I 9 pool quite a bit ZvP, and what I'm MOST afraid of is failing to do much of any damage with the 9 pool and being greeted by 2-3 zealots extremely quickly coming over to have their dirty psionic way with my attempted natural expansion. And again, this is with what should be LESS of an economic disadvantage than a 6 pool would have. Though those zealots are not likely to end the game, they are likely to disrupt me at a time where I really need to be making nothing but drones, and do so in a way that doesn't effectively cost the Protoss much (he's still safe on 1 base and making probes) but does cost the zerg something no matter what. That said, Zealots are really friggin' slow. Though I dont think this means you can't use zealots to pressure after a failed 6 pool, I do think it'd be pertinent of blizzard to buff them to somewhere where they're not one of the slowest units in the game. I'm not sure why they're as slow as they are, and giving them even a slight boost to speed (2.35, maybe?) wouldn't make too much of a difference* but would allow protoss a bit more room to use them agressively early game. (*that is, unless it totally screws PvT up with zealots being faster than unstimmed marines)
Zealots move so slow and build so slowly that they aren't going to have the opportunity to be much of a threat in most cases. With all the lost mining time that almost always happens from defending a 6 pool, the protoss isn't really going to want to sacrifice getting a cyber core + gas to chrono out a couple of zeals with crossed fingers anyway. The zerg should have a queen and just a few lings.. and there goes your zealots. They are too slow to do any damage against actual micro. You need to keep one at your choke as well, as if you send the few zeals you have to attack, the zerg can just runby.
It is intuitive to think that attacking the zerg with some sort of 1 base timing attack is the way to go after defending a 6 pool, but it generally is a good way to lose the game from my experience, and in watching some pro games. I've seen many a defended 6-pool into 4-gate attack fail miserably due to the cost efficiency differential of the t1 p army against a few spinecrawlers with queen + ling /roach support).
|
On September 30 2011 07:49 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 07:30 freetgy wrote:
well nobody is scared about six pools on shakuras because there are only 2 spawn locations... What? Shakuras is a 4 player map....
a 4-player map in which you can never spawn close positions. Pro-tip, don't scout the close position, your opponent will never be there.
|
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
lol I'm always being called greedy for FE'ing! Now I'm being called overpowered if Protoss fast expands? Well jeez, I'll just double fast expand before pool and lets see who is overpowered now! :D
Besides, if I see FFE, I'm happy to see it because then that means that I can FE with no worries, pump out my roaches faster, run in destroy the forge or cybernetics core with cost effeciant losses, expand to a third with no chances of a counter-attack then tech up to what I want or mass up as fast as I want. My opponent will be a minute or 2 behind without their cyber core ^_^
But I'm in gold league, so it may not work as well in platinum or higher like it does for me in gold.
|
Its pretty unfair to fast expand all the time vs zerg, and lose to 6 pools, and then make a thread about it with only your experience alone. Look at the bigger picture: many people do not even 6 pool, and if they do I always see a pylon in their base with a cannon up. In the GSL at least, I have seen several 6 pools and no one has ever lost to one. It is not overpowered, just work on getting your wall up and scout faster
|
Sooo, you're basically saying that something is OP because you were able to perform it better than your main race?
Also, it's impossible to nerf the 6 pool without destroying the rest of the zerg game. It's like the people who say that hatch first is OP vs terran because it gives the zerg an unbeatable economic advantage that is impossible to counter. And besides, the fear of being six-pooled kinda is there to prevent FEs in ZvZ and ZvP, matchups where it's pretty much necessary for both sides to have some type of army (even if it's just 4 slowlings) before dropping their expansion.
1k masters toss here. shakuras is an easy autowin against 6 pool
I'm pretty sure that everybody above silver knows to FFE on Shakuras and Tal'Darim, the distance between naturals means that the timing of the wall and cannon finishing is before the lings would actually arrive.
As for the scouting issue, you think it isn't OP at all that zerg can fly an overlord in at 6:00, miss the fourth warpgate, stargate, or dark shrine by about 2 seconds, and lose the game because it's impossible to scout against a good protoss until lair tech, and even then it's kinda iffy? Zerg has been qq'ing about it since... forever, and we haven't got anything to deal with that, so what makes you, OP, think that not scouting a 6 pool is OP.
My two cents.
|
On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool?
It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings.
Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically.
|
you can hold a 6 pool with just workers..
On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically.
don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose.
|
6 pool is not overpowered in the slightest, it is merely a blind hard counter that works, or does not work.
In the same way that a 2 gate proxy is a near auto-win against a hatch first zerg, so is a 6 pool a near auto-win against nexus first protoss.
The fact that you are getting meta-gamed on maps where nearly every protoss FFE's says nothing about balance. Scout at 6 if you have to.
Would it be fair to complain that bunker rush is overpowered vs zerg because I lose every time I go 16 hatch, 15 hatch again (third), 17 pool? Of course not. And that's why the meta game is 15 hatch 14 pool not 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool. Its not as safe. You are doing a build which is overly economical, its just the meta game has been such for a while that noone really 6 pooled at high levels, and now they are and it's catching you off-guard.
it has always been the case that greedy>safe>all-in>greedy etc
It would be imabalanced if 6 pool put zerg ahead vs every protoss opening, or that a build which is safe vs 6 pool is so far behind vs a standard zerg opening that you cannot win. This is not the case, simply 3 gate expand. Or even white-ra style 3 gate expand with first gate and cyber near nexus for extra safety.
It is a risk for zerg to hatch first vs protoss and risk for protoss to FFE vs zerg. You only feel it's imbalanced because you feel it is YOUR RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO FFE VS ZERG. This isnt the case. Evidently.
Zergs learned long ago that the hatch first is crazy risk. So should protoss learn that the early expand is a risk.
TL DR
You are doing a build which you felt was safe vs zerg. It is not totally safe. It is just that now people are beginning to take blind 6 poolish risks due to shifting meta-game, and it has caught you off guard.
|
On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose.
Show me a replay of you doing that as P. Someone just 7 pooled me and I tried to defend with workers. Guess the outcome.
|
Yet another reason why the game isn't balanced for four-player maps. For a map to be competitive, it needs three spawn locations. Two makes it too easy to cheese, four makes it too hard to scout. Three is the magic number. Mirrored 4-player maps with close spawns disabled are probably the way of the future here, or alternately 3-player maps with rotational symmetry. Two locations to scout are needed to eliminate the luck factor here.
|
On September 30 2011 07:51 Zanzabarr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 07:42 Staboteur wrote:On September 30 2011 07:25 Zanzabarr wrote:
The reason that slightly failed 6 pools can go into long games where the zerg can win is due to the complete inability for protoss to be aggressive after defending it, which is because of the large dependence protoss has on gas and higher tech to be effective. Uhh... Hypothetical situation. 6 pool happens. Is defended without a billion casualties. Worker count is 8 for the zerg, and 12 for the protoss. What's to stop the protoss from chronoboosting out a few (2-3, depending on how well the 6 pool was defended) zealots while constantly producing probes, then expanding behind the pressure when able? Zerglings? If he's making zerglings, he's not making drones, and he really, really needs to make drones. Because you're already ahead in workers, you can afford to be extremely cost inefficient with your zealots, because that's what an econ advantage is there for. Spine crawlers? Cost a drone and two opportunity drones, and could only prevent the zealots from running in and killing workers in the main, leaving the zealots to just chill and deny the natural. They're an effective defense, yes, but they would restrict the zerg to only moving out as fast as his creep spread, as well as costing quite a lot of money -and- possibly not being up in time. Roaches? lol. Even just a geyser with two dudes mining it would absolutely kill the rest of the zerg econ, let alone a roach warren in any amount of time to defend Anything that costs gas is out of the question. Again, I 9 pool quite a bit ZvP, and what I'm MOST afraid of is failing to do much of any damage with the 9 pool and being greeted by 2-3 zealots extremely quickly coming over to have their dirty psionic way with my attempted natural expansion. And again, this is with what should be LESS of an economic disadvantage than a 6 pool would have. Though those zealots are not likely to end the game, they are likely to disrupt me at a time where I really need to be making nothing but drones, and do so in a way that doesn't effectively cost the Protoss much (he's still safe on 1 base and making probes) but does cost the zerg something no matter what. That said, Zealots are really friggin' slow. Though I dont think this means you can't use zealots to pressure after a failed 6 pool, I do think it'd be pertinent of blizzard to buff them to somewhere where they're not one of the slowest units in the game. I'm not sure why they're as slow as they are, and giving them even a slight boost to speed (2.35, maybe?) wouldn't make too much of a difference* but would allow protoss a bit more room to use them agressively early game. (*that is, unless it totally screws PvT up with zealots being faster than unstimmed marines) Zealots move so slow and build so slowly that they aren't going to have the opportunity to be much of a threat in most cases. With all the lost mining time that almost always happens from defending a 6 pool, the protoss isn't really going to want to sacrifice getting a cyber core + gas to chrono out a couple of zeals with crossed fingers anyway. The zerg should have a queen and just a few lings.. and there goes your zealots. They are too slow to do any damage against actual micro. You need to keep one at your choke as well, as if you send the few zeals you have to attack, the zerg can just runby. It is intuitive to think that attacking the zerg with some sort of 1 base timing attack is the way to go after defending a 6 pool, but it generally is a good way to lose the game from my experience, and in watching some pro games. I've seen many a defended 6-pool into 4-gate attack fail miserably due to the cost efficiency differential of the t1 p army against a few spinecrawlers with queen + ling /roach support).
My entire point was that no matter what they'll do some sort of damage. It isn't a "1 base timing attack", it's making a small handful of zealots (Chances are you've still got one from holding the pressure) to take advantage of your economic advantage (and you do have one if you held the 6 pool at all) by forcing the zerg to make anything that isn't drones. You do it not because you hope to kill off a mineral line or hope to rofl all over his hatchery, you do it for the exact same reason he 6 pooled; it is almost guaranteed to do damage, and it will almost definitely cause major problems in whatever plan he currently has.
And don't tell me you can't do it because shit is too slow. Let's pretend you've got one Zealot left from holding the 6 pool, one gateway and enough probes to maintain zealot production out of one gateway, constant probe production and enough left over to get pylons / gateways / forges / cyber cores / a gas if you so desire.
It takes 38 seconds to build a zealot, so with a single chronoboost, just over a minute later you've got three happy zealots ready to go do business to your opponent's stuff. If he doesn't have ~12 zerglings making and a queen already out by the time your zealots are halfway across the map, he's in trouble. Again, if he doesn't forego the production of 6 drones -and- already have a queen out he might just outright die. If he DOES forego the production of 6 drones AND pull the queen to defend, you can still prevent him from having any hope of attacking or expanding AND you slowed down his economy while giving yourself space to advance your own.
Zergling runby you say? With slow lings? Two questions immediately come to mind: One, why the fuck does he have lings when he can only afford to be making drones to have even a dream of an economy, and two, lolol at slow lings because there's no way in hell he's got ling speed even started, let alone done. In order for a ling runby to even be remotely feasible he'd have to have produced the lings after the 6 pool was already held (which means his economy should be fully laughable at this point), he'd have to have one scouting to see if you leave your base and the rest positioned out of sight but near your base, and he'd have to have his fingers crossed pretty damn hard that you don't spot his potential runby and block with a pylon or probes OR leave a zealot behind. Slow lings also take quite some time to jaunt across the map, so the logistics of him doing a ling runby as a response to your zealot pressure means he has to have both prepared for it before hand AND be convinced that he'll somehow magically do more damage with a handful of lings than your 3 zealots will do to his entire base. And that's assuming his runby even gets there before the next gateway unit is out to block the choke.
It isn't about a 1 base timing attack like a 4 gate. It's about making units and attacking immediately to take advantage of your current economic advantage, because your current economic advantage won't last forever due to the zerg ability to focus all production solely on drones, when allowed. You don't -have- to tech because he -can't afford to- tech, and you have the advantage because the zerg literally cannot afford to do anything other than make drones. Plus zealots in any number over one are really good against zerglings. The micro on the zerg's part becomes exponentially more difficult the more zealots are involved.
Again, a 9 pool is a different story. You try zealot counter a 9 pool and you're likely to meet an already-finished natural expansion and a pair of frisky spine crawlers.
|
On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose.
What is the point of posting, if you don't even read the post. Look at what I said in the last paragraph genius. You come off as a scrub player who doesn't know what he is talking about.
|
On September 30 2011 08:05 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. Show me a replay of you doing that as P. Someone just 7 pooled me and I tried to defend with workers. Guess the outcome.
White-Ra does it all the time.
I think the problem is that 6pool is easy to execute yet hard to stop. At Masters/GM level it's pretty easy to stop if you went standard 13gate and scout it (which is 67% of the time), but for diamond and below it's really difficult.
I don't think a 6pool nerf is in order though, it would pretty much make Protoss safe opening Nexus First FFE on almost any map. I'm not sure how you could make it easier to deal with as Toss, I believe there is a published 6pool map where you just face off against 6pool. If you get the zerg in one of your two scout locations you should be able to chrono out a zealot and stop the pressure ez with some decent micro.
|
The answer, imo, is to not Forge FE at all. I never understood why people did that build in the first place. You are vulnerable to an early pool if you scout them last, you are vulnerable to a quick roach rush, or baneling bust if you dont make enough cannons or sentries, and they can just take a FREE third base if they arent doing an all in vs you. When is forge FE good?
Also I dont really understand why zerg can get away with 6 pooling on a 4 player map. It always seems like they know where you are before you know where they are. I never beat 6 pools no matter what I do lol. As a response to the title of this thread: yes I definately think 6 pool is overpowered.
|
On September 30 2011 08:38 Zanzabarr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. What is the point of posting, if you don't even read the post. Look at what I said in the last paragraph genius. You come off as a scrub player who doesn't know what he is talking about.
So do you, with your allusions to Zerg's magic-eyeball scouting that lets him see gateway next to nexus behind a 10 pool. What is this, close air positions all map every map, or is the zerg doing some sexy 8-scout 10-pool that merits sacrificing one's own economy quite drastically in a hope that your zerglings actually do some sort of damage and aren't just thwarted by the fact that zealots with probe support kick the absolute shit out of zerglings and you just permanently scarred your early economy with the hope that attacking a tight, closed point defended by zealots would do you good.
In any case, I'm 95% sure you're a silver league troll at this point. Cheers, have fun with whoemever else you manage to suck in in this thread.
|
On September 30 2011 08:05 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. Show me a replay of you doing that as P. Someone just 7 pooled me and I tried to defend with workers. Guess the outcome.
I wish this thread would be closed because it's just a bunch of nonsensical whining that doesn't contribute anything to this forum.
7 pool is 10000% different than 6 pool. 7 pool can possibly continuously reinforce depending on his build order, and you will be able to scout it in advance with a single scout on every map except tal'darim where early pools are much more difficult to pull off.
The fact that 6 pool is hard-capped at 14 lings (and usually 10) means that you will always have an army advantage if you chrono your gateway and pull some probes.
Now, if you failed from the first 6-10 lings, then that has nothing to do with continuous reinforcements and you just failed at micro. If that's the case, post the replay, or find someone to 6 pool you.
|
6 pool is op, because even if i stop it, the game goes on for 30 more minutes
|
On September 30 2011 09:40 eatmybunnies wrote:
6 pool is op, because even if i stop it, the game goes on for 30 more minutes
Sounds like 2-rax to me.
That is... 2-rax after the latest patch.
|
I have tested various Protoss openers against 6pool over many games against my team mate (also a GM) on most of the current map pool. For what its worth, my conclusions are as follows.
You are welcome to attempt to replicate my results yourself. I hope you will forgive me for not bothering you with the replays. All you would see in any event is me getting 6 pooled over and over for about 50 games(which might be good if your having trouble sleeping). Quite frankly, I didn't bother saving them.
Forge Fast Expand
I tested FFE on different maps over about 30 games against my team mate, also a GM Zerg, under "perfect conditions".
My conclusion is that if you FFE, on any map (with the possible except of TDA), in most cases you cannot reliably complete the wall off by the time the lings arrive.
I was occassionally (but not consistently) able to complete a wall on TDA and Shakuras when:
1. I sent my 13th probe to make a forge (with my 14 probe building);
2. My probe scouted the Zerg spawn first; and
3. I immediately cut probes (14 total), and then made gateway, cannon gateway (3 buildings only) to complete the wall.
It is possible to do this 50% of the time on Shakuras (ie you scout them first 1 in 2 games). TDA it is much lower because (1) you scout them first only 33% of the time, and (2) some spawns you need a fourth building to complete the wall, and I simply could not collect enough minerals in time.
On Shakuras and TDA (and also Abyssmal caverns), the most common "full block" maps, when my opponent also sent his drones to harass as soon as he had collected 150 minerals for the 6 lings, I was never able to get a wall or cannon up in time at my natural, even after taking the three steps above.
Obviously, on maps like XNC and some of the other 4 player maps, it is never possible to make a complete wall off, so this option is unrealistic.
I would conclude that wall off is unreliable at best, especially given the possibility they may also send their drones to harass if you are lucky enough to scout their spawn first.
Cannon in main
Now, having eliminated walling off as a realistic possibility against a competent opponent in most cases, the next option is obviously to abandon the initial pylon and forge, and immediately make a cannon and pylon in your main. I have also tested this against different 6pool on various maps (some with shorter rush distances than others, including 4player maps where you pick up information about the 6 pool when scouting the last spawn).
In most cases, it is possible to get a pylon and cannon up in your main so that the cannon spawns just as (or just after) the lings arrive.
Cannon in main where you scout zerg spawn second
On four player maps, where you scout their spawn second, the timing will generally be that the lings are on their way around the time your proves arrive. If you immediately build a pylon in your main at that point, followed by a cannon, the cannon should have just started in your main as the lings arrive. You then have to micro your probes really well so as not to fall behind.
In this scenario, assuming they drone after sending the first 6 lings, and are able to take out several probes before your cannon finishes, they are generally on a relatively even footing going into the mid game. Zerg is generally slightly behind on drones, but you have also generally lost a few probes and have also lost the pylon and forge. The game can be dynamic from that point.
On TDA, even when I scouted the Zerg second, the lings were generally in my base at around that time (or very shortly after). You will notice Korean pros double scout on this map when FFEing. This is the reason for this.
Cannon in main when scouting Zerg spawn last
In this scenario, my opponent's lings arrived in my main before I actually scouted his spawn. Obviously, there was no realistic possibility of getting a pylon (let alone a cannon) up, and the only option was to fight lings with probes. With good ling micro/harassment, and either (1) a constant stream of lings reinforcing, or (2) my opponent droning hard while harassing, I rapidly dropped behind.
Overall conclusion on cannon-in-main option
My overall conclusion was that cannon-in-main is very safe on Shakuras and somewhat safe on TDA.
On four player maps such as Shattered, Abyssmal and Antiga, it comes down to when you scout them. As a rough rule of thumb:
1. If you scout them first and cannon-in-main, you hold and are ahead.
2. If you scout them second and cannon-in-main, you are generally on an even footing going into the mid game (depending how well you micro'd while your cannon was warping in).
3. If you scout them third and cannon-in-main, you will be significantly behind, and possibly just outright dead.
Overall conclusion on 6 pool against FFE
My overall all conclusion is that 6 pool is not overpowered against P, and can be dealt so as to give you at least an even game in more than 50% of cases.
However, I feel that it is a gambler's opening on smaller 4 player maps where FFE is common. In 33% of cases, P will scout it first and be ahead, in 33% of cases the players will be roughly even, and in 33% of cases the P will be significantly behind. This cuts both ways, of couse - if you FFE as P, you need to be aware that a zerg who decides to flip the coin may simply kill you outright.
On TDA where FFE is the norm, I can see why 6 pool has become "the meta game" in Korea (to quote tastosis in a recent GSL game). It gives you a chance to outright kill your opponent, or at least be on an even footing in the majority of cases.
On Shakuras, which has only 3 spawns and a natural that can be blocked with 3 buildings in all cases, I think 6pool is a weak opening, assuming P executes a correct (not greedy) build. It seems to me it is only viable when Z also sends all his drones so as to prevent a complete block, but in this case P should have time to get a cannon up in his main and any probe losses are more than offset by the fact that Z has pulled all his drones.
Gateway at ramp
The same issues with scouting on 4 player maps apply here. If you pylon scout and reach Zerg's spawn first, obviously you have your choice of forge/cannon block at ramp or second gate (with temporary pylon block) and chonoing a zealot.
When I scouted Zerg second (and definately when I scouted them third) , I actually found myself in a worse position than when I opened FFE. In this case you simply cannot get a zealot out in anything close to time, and you need to pull probes to protect the valuable pylon powering your gateway.
This further reinforces my conclusion that 6pool is basically a "gamblers opening" on 4 player maps. I would certainly recommend Zerg 6 pooling in all cases on such maps where they feel their opponent is more skilled than them, as it is an opening that negates all skill differences and basically gives Zerg a 50/50 chance of winning assuming moderately competent micro.
|
6 pool isn't even cheese, if you don't autowin cause of scout last, good defence etc etc - just drone up and game is even. That's the most annoying thing =/
|
On September 30 2011 09:55 ZealotMaster wrote:
On Shakuras, which has only 3 spawns and a natural that can be blocked with 3 buildings in all cases, I think 6pool is a weak opening, assuming P executes a correct (not greedy) build. It seems to me it is only viable when Z also sends all his drones so as to prevent a complete block, but in this case P should have time to get a cannon up in his main and any probe losses are more than offset by the fact that Z has pulled all his drones.
Gateway at ramp
When I scouted Zerg second (and definately when I scouted them third) , I actually found myself in a worse position than when I opened FFE. In this case you simply cannot get a zealot out in anything close to time, and you need to pull probes to protect the valuable pylon powering your gateway.
Completing the wall doesn't necessarily save you at all. If the zerg player decided to reinforce (which he should), you'll lose your wall almost every time, and you may or may not survive depending on spawning positions on Shakuras especially (and, as you said, if/when you cut probes)
If you gated first, scouting information is next to worthless to you, since the best thing you can do is probe dance which doesn't require any advance warning. This is the best possible position you can be in when facing a 6 pool. The worst position is when you seal a wall on Shakuras but it's too late, so you die a slow and frustrating death over the following 2-3 minutes.
You can't get a zealot out in time independent of how soon you scout him because off a 12 gate, your zealot usually will have just started in a best case scenario, leaving you still 20-25 seconds to deal with zerglings, so this is a moot point. You do need to pull some probes, but I don't understand why you consider this a worse position?? If you don't wall off from a 1-gate core opening, that 6 pool is very likely to do almost no damage with somewhat decent probe dancing. Zerg needs to significantly out-micro you to inflict any damage, or depend on a late or non-reaction to snipe your pylon before a zealot can get out.
|
@michaelhasanalias
In relation to Shakuras, provided you build forge, gateway, cannon, gateway, I found I could just hold (when I scouted them first and they did not send drones to harass). The building order is critical because they start (or should start) killing your forge immediately, which is the weakest building in the wall, and the timing for getting the cannon up before the forge dies is very tight.
I see that you play on SEA - come to channel [TA] and ask me for a game some time, I would be happy to test the timing with you. If it turns out I am wrong, then it may be that cannon-in-main is also required in these circumstances on Shakuras.
In relation to gateway-first on 4 player maps, I feel that scouting information is relevant to the extent that if you find them first, you may have just enough time to get a forge/cannon up (you will probably also need to execute a temporary pylon block). Executing this block properly correctly is depends on things like whether it is possible to reinforce by adding buildings behind etc, which will depend on the particular ramp.
I agree that, as you say, if you scout them second or third, there's nothing to do but pull probes and micro (so scouting information is irrelevant).
|
I don't think 6 pool is op but I do think learning your correct timings and proper responses sure is OP.
|
If he 6 pools then there are likely 8 lings incoming with only 7 drones behind it - you'll have around 2 times as many workers as him. Pylon in your mineral line when you spot the cheese and drop a cannon at it as soon as possible. You lose your forge but you get out with a stockpile of minerals and have a worker advantage. He'll get an expand up earlier than you due to his map presence but he'll have a weaker economy, just expand when you can and you'll likely be even or slightly ahead. His tech will also be terribly delayed so a relatively quick gateway response is usually pretty potent.
|
On September 30 2011 09:40 eatmybunnies wrote:
6 pool is op, because even if i stop it, the game goes on for 30 more minutes
Yep its only because of a single unit "Queen" the inject larva allows zerg to catch up at a ridiculous rate if they only make drones. Yes toss has Chrono boost but its not the same 6 larva a pop compared to just speeding up probe production does not cancel each other out.
Zerg is the only race with a ridiculously good open cheese, terran is a 2nd with proxy rax and bunker rushes, while toss is really ALL IN. Toss can proxy gateway or cannon rush both which have no points of return if they are stopped.
|
I hate to sound like a Protoss traitor here (I really do hate getting 6 pooled), but if, as many people in this thread seem to acknowledge, Zerg is not "all in" by 6 pooling, why bother calling it cheese?
Seems to me it is a viable opening, and time would be better spent analysing the timings and learning how to deal with it.
Of course I agree with the complaint that it is so easy to execute compared with the potential pay off. But I don't think this complaint is the end of the matter. On four player maps, I think it allows Zerg to negate any difference in skill about 33% of the time (ie where they hit you with lings completely blind because you scouted them last). In the other 66% of cases, Zerg is either very behind (you scouted them first and reacted properly) or on an even footing, in which if you truly are the more skilled player you will go on to win the game.
Also, I know we're not supposed to go into balance theorycrafting on the forums, but if you will forgive me for doing so, I am not sure how Blizzard could really address this issue without messing up other aspects of the game. The suggestion, I suppose, would be to make a spawning pool require an overlord. But would this give Protoss too much of an advantage, knowing that they could Nexus first on just about any map of a decent size?
|
On September 30 2011 08:51 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 08:38 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. What is the point of posting, if you don't even read the post. Look at what I said in the last paragraph genius. You come off as a scrub player who doesn't know what he is talking about. So do you, with your allusions to Zerg's magic-eyeball scouting that lets him see gateway next to nexus behind a 10 pool. What is this, close air positions all map every map, or is the zerg doing some sexy 8-scout 10-pool that merits sacrificing one's own economy quite drastically in a hope that your zerglings actually do some sort of damage and aren't just thwarted by the fact that zealots with probe support kick the absolute shit out of zerglings and you just permanently scarred your early economy with the hope that attacking a tight, closed point defended by zealots would do you good. In any case, I'm 95% sure you're a silver league troll at this point. Cheers, have fun with whoemever else you manage to suck in in this thread.
What are you even talking about? Are you actually suggesting that a zerg cannot scout the protoss who builds his gateway next to nexus in time to harass with lings off of a 10-pool.... I'm beginning to think you don't even play this game. I am a Masters league Protoss, who in response to being 6-pooled with a gate first build and scouting the zerg last, switched to a gate next to nexus in the next game on a 4-player map to ensure a win against 6-p, and the masters zerg who opened 10p went mass ling upon seeing this before a wall-off was possible. It isn't possible to really scout a zerg after his standard few lings that early in the game.... to see if he decided to make a few more. I didn't die to it, but the harass allowed him to get way ahead economically while I had to wait for stalkers to get out to deal with the well micro'd lings.
|
On September 28 2011 18:35 d00p wrote:
Sounds like you have vetoed all the horrible new maps that are really bad for zerg. Maybe unveto searing crater etc and veto shakuras and tal darim (you can still veto xel naga if you must)? Should be getting more P and T after that.
I'm pretty sure you get matched to the player first, and then the map is selected... vetos don't make a difference. (yeah I know that was pages ago, but still....someone was wrong on the internet :p ).
|
Here is what I will say about 6 pool. After a few months of playing I was in gold. My wife got really bored one night and she used to like AOE 2 and I have an extra account so she figured what the hell and learned the six pool and started laddering. Five placement matches later she was in Platinum and was like "Haven't you been trying to get to Platinum for months?" It got worse later that month when I was demoted to Silver.  She no longer ladders, but I do occationally get her to help me practice my six pool defense which is one reason I was able to get to Platinum eventually.
If I scout 6 pool first it is practially an autowin for me. If I scout it second I win more than half, but barely. On Tal Darim I usually lose even if I scout it second, because the wall off is tough and if I fall back to my main I tend to get outmacroed.
I like Xel Naga Caverns and Shakuras because I do not need to worry about scouting 6 pool last. If I scout 6 pool last it is basically an autoloss.
Regarding Nexus First: Can Protoss safely Nexus first vs an 11 Pool or 10 Pool?
As much as I dislike 6 pool I would actually say that being cannon rushed is harder to defend. Between the "Boss" cannon rush and various low ground shenanigans on XNC and Metalopolis it can be very tough to defend. Also that crappy 3 Rax opening with calldown on supply and the SCV pull is really hard too. Of all the race's cheeses I would actually say defending Zerg's cheese (at my level) is easiest with Toss. The advantage of 6 pool is that you can actually use it against all races, while Cannon rushing is pretty weak against T or Z.
|
Ya If you FFE just go pylon 9- scout, forge 12/13, chrono probes then if you havnt scouted them yet, put your 15/16 pylon at your mineral line. If you see early pool, drop a cannon or 2(not really necessary)... Then when lings come you just micro probes (you really shouldn't lose any) until cannon is finished. Drop a gateway or 2, get gas and either save chrono for warp tech or just chrono probes.
Build zealots constantly out of ur gateways and send them to his base. When this fails for a Zerg all they want to do is drone. You can either 5 gate all in or expand yourself, I prefer all in-ing out of spite.
There is no reason you should lose unless you do something notibly wrong..
|
On September 30 2011 11:31 Jemesatui wrote:
Ya If you FFE just go pylon 9- scout, forge 12/13, chrono probes then if you havnt scouted them yet, put your 15/16 pylon at your mineral line. If you see early pool, drop a cannon or 2(not really necessary)... Then when lings come you just micro probes (you really shouldn't lose any) until cannon is finished. Drop a gateway or 2, get gas and either save chrono for warp tech or just chrono probes.
Build zealots constantly out of ur gateways and send them to his base. When this fails for a Zerg all they want to do is drone. You can either 5 gate all in or expand yourself, I prefer all in-ing out of spite.
There is no reason you should lose unless you do something notibly wrong..
I find going for a 1 base warpgate counter attack can often lose you the game. The zerg can quite reliably defend with much less cost of army as long as he has his queens fighting and the token 3+ spines that will be at the natural.
|
6pool is very easy to stop with FFE id be willing to provide a replay for any toss wondering how its done. but you have to go zerg and 6pool me
14forge
scout at 9pylon
scout after the forge as well. two scouts in order to see lings coming so you can pull probes to protect your cannon as the lings come
drop a cannon right after forge is done. make your wall forge/pylon/gateway/pylon, cannon behind it
when you see lings coming, finish your wall and pull all your probes except for 2 to defend the cannon as its building. you only need to defend against 6lings while its building. once wall is done resume mining
you will be far ahead
|
On September 30 2011 10:29 ZealotMaster wrote:
@michaelhasanalias
In relation to Shakuras, provided you build forge, gateway, cannon, gateway, I found I could just hold (when I scouted them first and they did not send drones to harass). The building order is critical because they start (or should start) killing your forge immediately, which is the weakest building in the wall, and the timing for getting the cannon up before the forge dies is very tight.
I see that you play on SEA - come to channel [TA] and ask me for a game some time, I would be happy to test the timing with you. If it turns out I am wrong, then it may be that cannon-in-main is also required in these circumstances on Shakuras.
In relation to gateway-first on 4 player maps, I feel that scouting information is relevant to the extent that if you find them first, you may have just enough time to get a forge/cannon up (you will probably also need to execute a temporary pylon block). Executing this block properly correctly is depends on things like whether it is possible to reinforce by adding buildings behind etc, which will depend on the particular ramp.
I agree that, as you say, if you scout them second or third, there's nothing to do but pull probes and micro (so scouting information is irrelevant).
I'm saying that, in the situation where you go gateway first and your opponent 6 pools, scouting information is irrelevant. Forge/cannon isn't the best option for you to even execute, probe dancing is. So, the best reaction doesn't actually require scouting information.
Now, against other early pools, a forge/cannon would be useful, but you will be able to scout these in advance. Against 6 pool specifically, you shouldn't forge/cannon off 1-gate core openers.
The reason I mention Shakuras specifically is because the spawning positions aren't equal because the map doesn't have reflective symmetry. This is why you had inconsistent results on your walling practice. It's a big difference if you spawn top left to bottom right versus bottom left to top right. That difference means maybe you can seal your wall and have a cannon in time.
Here's a post I just made in another thread that maybe you'd be interested in:
On September 30 2011 09:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 06:25 lordsurya08 wrote:
I was looking at the TL wiki's page for Shakuras Plateau and I noticed this:
"Players always spawn in left versus right positions (i.e., positions 1 or 5 versus 7 or 11)."
This was a revelation for me as I thought that spawns were random - but apparently not. Are there spawning patterns for other maps? If so, what are they? Is there a page that lists all the patterns?
I think it's worth noting that few people realize Shakuras Plateau is actually translationally symmetrical, not bilaterally symmetrical. Also, the pathing from any given main to either opposite main passes through the same midpoint in the map. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4pG01.png) If you look closely, the top left and bottom right positions are actually the closest rush distances you can get. Bottom left and top right are the furthest, and then either close air positions are in the middle. The rush distance is something like 5-7 seconds for zerglings between the close and far cross position spawns. What all this means is that if you fear some kind of rush, and you spawn on the left side of the map, you should always scout bottom right first because it's always the closer of the two positions. If you spawn on the right side of the map, you should always scout top left first. A game-related application of this would be like so: In PvZ if Protoss opts for a 13 forge to fast expand, he will die to a well executed 6 pool if he spawned top left and zerg was bottom right. However, he will be completely safe if he spawned top right and the zerg spawned bottom left. Those five extra seconds allow enough time for the cannon to complete before the wall can go down. Conversely, those five fewer seconds allow the zerg to dismantle the wall and take down the cannon, killing the protoss if he tried to complete the wall instead of pylon/cannoning his mineral line.
|
i never 6p anymore because i dont feel i get ahead even if i get the forge+pylon, most protosses seem to build a cannon in their mineral line which makes the game 8-9 drones vs 16-20 and even though i have an early queen i don't feel very comfortable
|
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem?
|
United States1647 Posts
On September 28 2011 17:25 OptimusYale wrote:
Losing to 6pool is embarassing, I thought by now people would know how to defend.
As a Zerg I never win with 6 pool. If you feel that all zergs cheese, send a scout out earlier, see what they're up to....
Earlier than 9? What are you talking about?
|
United States1647 Posts
On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem?
Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy.
You can't really make a comparison.
|
There are so many threads on 6 pool, you should see that it is very easy to stop, though most people do not do the best way. So no, it really is not too strong. Every race has their own strong cheeses.
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread. Show nested quote +The best way to do defend against 6 pool and also be better economically is just to build your pylon/gate hugging your nexus/mineral line, instead of at the ramp
This way if he comes with a 6 pool, your 2nd pylon you make will guarantee ur gateway gets the first zealot out, and at that point you just need a little micro to stack probes and go back and forth with your zealots
And if he doesn't 6 pool you, you can put your 2nd pylon and cyber/other2gates at your ramp later on; it will be there on time for any kind of speedling attacks
WhiteRa mentions this on one of MrBitter's videos
I'm curious though why more people don't do this. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really. A forge + cannon is a waste and like some said if he just makes 6 lings and drones immediately (which is what I do when i play zerg and 6 pool or 7 pool) then the game will not be necessarily in your favor just by defending the 6 lings. Your gas tech will be significantly behind, u will have to kill ur pylon or such later on to leave your base, and the zerg should be able to catch up on econ/drones very easily (8-9 drones depending if 6 pool or 7 pool by time 6 lings start to build, then as you drone and your lings hit his base you should be at 12-14 drones while the protoss usually will have 15 ish, but even less if he cut in order to get forge+canon out; also get a queen and gas or a hatch or such).
|
On September 30 2011 12:46 PieLieDie wrote:
i never 6p anymore because i dont feel i get ahead even if i get the forge+pylon, most protosses seem to build a cannon in their mineral line which makes the game 8-9 drones vs 16-20 and even though i have an early queen i don't feel very comfortable
Exactly what I thought. I once tried 6 pooling colrsvp and he added the cannon in the mineral line. Since then, I have abandoned any kind of 6 pooling.
|
well nobody is scared about six pools on shakuras because there are only 2 spawn locations...
On September 30 2011 07:49 Seeker wrote:
What? Shakuras is a 4 player map....
/end of discussion
|
You might be able to draw something useful from HuK vs Moon at Dreamhack. I can't remember which one it was, but it was game 7 on TDA, and Moon 6 pooled. I remember HuK mentioned that he had a 2nd probe ready to scout in case he didn't scout first, so that might be something worth exploring.
|
The difference between 6 pool and overpowered 6 pool is null. This is because, 6 pool isn't overpowered, but either you are dieing to it or you are over reacting. Against zerg, on ALL maps, try to scout at 9. If u see 6 pool, make a forge, and a cannon. You will be, fine.
|
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
exactly this. zergs get punished a lot for fast expanding with a lot of different cheese. Just gotta learn how to deal with it with proper scouting. obviously if you don't see it coming you're screwed but thats just part of the game. If you scout one way on a 4 player map and they're on the other side then oh well...it's your fault for not going that way or sending 2 probes to be extra safe when being greedy.
|
you're supposed to build a pylon and cannon in your main mineral line and sac the pylon and forge at your front.
|
I think some scouting RNG is unavoidable, although we wouldn't be having this problem if there weren't so many fucking 4 player "macro" maps. Bring back Steppes of War, you'll scout that 6pool WELL before it becomes a threat.
|
You can defend a 6 pool with your workers long enough to get a canon up at the right place. Its not even hard.
I play z, in teamplay ive been 6 pooled by three (3) zergs at the same time and have held it off with only workers, initial queen and a spinecrawler or two as soon as opportunity allows. Lings simply die to mineralwalking and queensurrounds.
P are getting greedy and are getting punished for it. On one hand its a BO win if 6-pool ever succeeds; and if the OP had used a smarter BO (considering 90% of every player he meets is Z, and 90% of the does 6-pool) he would be in GM in no time due to all the automatic wins.
On the other hand, 6-pool should never succeed, not even against subopitmal P-builds. Mineralwalk to kill the 6 first, or to hold them off enough to get your first Zealot or canon, after that there is no way Z can do any real damage unless you truly are the worse player. (and in that case you deserve to loose anyway).
|
On September 30 2011 12:46 PieLieDie wrote:
i never 6p anymore because i dont feel i get ahead even if i get the forge+pylon, most protosses seem to build a cannon in their mineral line which makes the game 8-9 drones vs 16-20 and even though i have an early queen i don't feel very comfortable
well you might not feel like it but technically you ARE ahead.
you have an early queen and can produce nothing but drones and an early expo without having to fear anything at all.
just try to hit every inject even if you can't use the larvae right away
|
For me it is. Reason why I think so. There was 1 zerg who provided replays of him 6 pooling gm players and he could win vs players who are way better than him just because of his strategy. Now tell how worse protoss or terran can win vs better player with proxy rax/gate/cannon rush/bunker rush.. ( yes i exclude pvp for cannon rush.. ). It is just funny.
|
well cannon rush doesn't really entirely guarantee a win vs a better player in pvp either because he could cancel gate and build nexus somewhere else and try to play from behind.
6pool well you shouldn't outright DIE to it either if you play a somewhat safe build.
but terran.. well...... let's just say sc2 is a really great game if you play terran.
|
Why go 6 pool ? 9 pool does good economic damage and sometimes even kills the toss that FFE if he doesn't have good micro Also you can drone up after your initial lings .
|
I am in the same situation, mid master EU toss. Last 20 games 15 were zergs and on 4pl maps i received a lot of sixpool.
Now there are some stuff you can do.
1. scout with probe after pylon(9)
scout with probe after forge(13) - only if you didnt find it.. the problem is scouting... if you are unlucky you find it to late..
2. white-ra style.. : 9- pylon scout 13- forge -15- pilon near nexus (main) if scouts 6 poll he makes canon in mineral line and throw down gateway - defend with probes until canon is ready and from there you can start an even match.
3. just play it safe... pylon->forge->canon nexus/gate (depending on what you have scouted) - this is throwing you behind.. but really .. not so much
|
On September 30 2011 13:26 Oreo7 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote:On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy. You can't really make a comparison.
I feel no sympathy for you. 6Pool is weak I face it all the time in ZvZ I defend it by making nothing but Drones. Workers competely destroy any kind of early pool, You just mieral walk and surround them and its pretty much GG right there even if you lose some of yor probes. You can also pull back the low hp ones so you take no loses its not that hard but most people don't even bother. Atleast Toss have the luxury of cannons in their mineral lines we don't have that its Drones or nothing.(We can wait for Lings to pop but thats only on 6Pool Drone allin other wise Drones will hold it)
Dance around(Pull back when shields are gone as you regenerate faster than Lings do.) as you don't have creep in your main the Lings can't catch our Probes and make a a cannon/Chrono boost a Zealot and its gg right there. Follow up with 2 Gate/4 Gate and the Zerg can't defend it. Unless they 9Pooled like I do then you will get compeltely stomped. I don't see how you say if you Pool>Hatch and then we can't lose, If we pool>hatch and you wall our expo and cannons as Lings pop its GG. We had to change from Hatch first to Pool first just because Toss started Forge first and if you start getting 6Pooled more then change up your build we had to do it.
|
i have a preference to open 13 forge anyway, not only because its safer but because you can use cannons to pressure zergs who open hatch first, especially the really greedy ones who then make several drones before starting a pool.
|
On September 30 2011 16:41 willsterben wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 12:46 PieLieDie wrote:
i never 6p anymore because i dont feel i get ahead even if i get the forge+pylon, most protosses seem to build a cannon in their mineral line which makes the game 8-9 drones vs 16-20 and even though i have an early queen i don't feel very comfortable well you might not feel like it but technically you ARE ahead. you have an early queen and can produce nothing but drones and an early expo without having to fear anything at all. just try to hit every inject even if you can't use the larvae right away
LOL I hope you're trolling!
If you seriously think a Zerg with half the income of his protoss brethren is the one with the advantage, I think we play entirely different games.
There's no reason to believe the Zerg has nothing to fear at all. There's nothing preventing the protoss from attacking, and any attack the protoss manages while maintaining his own economy growth should be virtually guaranteed to do economic damage to an already exceptionally fragile zerg economy.
|
On September 30 2011 07:06 Zanzabarr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 07:01 DarkEnergy wrote:
Well you take that risk if you fe. we zerg do this allot and we get punished by it to. for example a 2 rax/proxy rax into bunker rush. or cannons at the nat etc. you can't really say broken or nerf because you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar right ?
and if what your saying is really true follow this advice.
if you just build a full wall and cannon up you win all those games. Lol Blizzard just "nerfed" bunker rushing slightly because of how good it was. I highly doubt any of you people mentioning stuff like "just wall" have ever even played Protoss or have any inclination about how fast the lings come. You actually lose if you wall off completely... your zealot can't get on the outside to attack lings and you lose your gateway. Also going forge first and building a bunch of cannons behind a wall off for your main puts you behind the zerg economically, as he is free to drone/expand.
i switched from toss so i do know.
and if you practice safe builds you wil always beat it.
unless it is a close spawn or a small maps. Still if u micro your probes temp wall with pylon crono zealot etc you will beat it and you wil be ahead.
|
I didnt read all comments but this is my opinion how easily defend 6 pool after FFE
If your first scouting probe missed oponent base, send another one in other direction. If you scouted lings or fast pool, build a pylon close to nexus than one canon in probe line, if you will have good micro on probess, canon should be complete before lings will do any damage. You will lose only one pylon and forge, but you will have x3 more workers. Later you build gates zealots and you have to scout what zerg is going do to next,
|
On September 30 2011 20:51 -Dustin- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 13:26 Oreo7 wrote:On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote:On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy. You can't really make a comparison. I feel no sympathy for you. 6Pool is weak I face it all the time in ZvZ I defend it by making nothing but Drones. Workers competely destroy any kind of early pool, You just mieral walk and surround them and its pretty much GG right there even if you lose some of yor probes. You can also pull back the low hp ones so you take no loses its not that hard but most people don't even bother. Atleast Toss have the luxury of cannons in their mineral lines we don't have that its Drones or nothing.(We can wait for Lings to pop but thats only on 6Pool Drone allin other wise Drones will hold it) Dance around(Pull back when shields are gone as you regenerate faster than Lings do.) as you don't have creep in your main the Lings can't catch our Probes and make a a cannon/Chrono boost a Zealot and its gg right there. Follow up with 2 Gate/4 Gate and the Zerg can't defend it. Unless they 9Pooled like I do then you will get compeltely stomped. I don't see how you say if you Pool>Hatch and then we can't lose, If we pool>hatch and you wall our expo and cannons as Lings pop its GG. We had to change from Hatch first to Pool first just because Toss started Forge first and if you start getting 6Pooled more then change up your build we had to do it.
Play protoss and try to defend a 6 pool with your ideas. you'll fall behind in tech/pylons especially if you walled your ramp
imo best way to counter a 6 pool is to skip gas, get second gateway and mass zealots. getting a forge sets you way behind and is auto lose in some cases ._>
|
Even when I hold the 6 pool off I think "Ok I must be ahead" when it turns out they have hardly suffered econ wise at all on big maps especially.
Some guy baneling busted me like 10 times in a row in the same game and kept expanding behind it or something - I constantly lost a lot of my army (I FFE'd and didn't have a huge army when the first one game) even after collo was out. After the first one I was like I'm ahead! But they kept coming man they kept coming. Bit of a rant but how the held did he do that
|
On September 30 2011 21:11 tsango wrote:
i have a preference to open 13 forge anyway, not only because its safer but because you can use cannons to pressure zergs who open hatch first, especially the really greedy ones who then make several drones before starting a pool.
and by "pressuring" zergs you mean straight up cannon rushing them.
|
The title of this thread is misleading. This should be more of a help guide on how to stop Zerg cheese when FFE'ing. Nexus first is a very risky build, and any kind of 1 base all in is the counter to it. You are skimping on units to get ahead in economy. That being said, a safer variant of the FFE would be the way to protect against the all-ins.
|
On October 03 2011 04:46 askTeivospy wrote:
Play protoss and try to defend a 6 pool with your ideas. you'll fall behind in tech/pylons especially if you walled your ramp
imo best way to counter a 6 pool is to skip gas, get second gateway and mass zealots. getting a forge sets you way behind and is auto lose in some cases ._>
Well I do 9Pool in ZvP but consider this, in a standard cross positions it takes quite a while for the Lings to get there but in a game I recently played I went 9Pool close position ST. So I would assume (not saying it will) these Lings arrived at the same time a 6Pool would have. The Toss didn't scout it till the Lings were half way past the gold or so.
I figured well thats instant GG right there. I didn't pay attention to what building he made at his expo he made 2 pylons and a Gateway, danced Probes with my Lings long enough to chrono a Zealot out I was able to get one Pylon but not the second one, So it seems if you double pylon Gateway its easy as hell to defend a early pool. I doubt it would work on close positions 6Pool. (only map I can think about that happening is ST) But I'm sure it would destroy a cross positions 6Pool.
I feel like this opening is solid and should be looked at.
|
On October 03 2011 05:41 TaKiTaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 21:11 tsango wrote:
i have a preference to open 13 forge anyway, not only because its safer but because you can use cannons to pressure zergs who open hatch first, especially the really greedy ones who then make several drones before starting a pool. and by "pressuring" zergs you mean straight up cannon rushing them.
No, he's gonna build zealots out of that forge. What is the point of your post.
|
On October 03 2011 04:46 askTeivospy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 20:51 -Dustin- wrote:On September 30 2011 13:26 Oreo7 wrote:On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote:On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy. You can't really make a comparison. I feel no sympathy for you. 6Pool is weak I face it all the time in ZvZ I defend it by making nothing but Drones. Workers competely destroy any kind of early pool, You just mieral walk and surround them and its pretty much GG right there even if you lose some of yor probes. You can also pull back the low hp ones so you take no loses its not that hard but most people don't even bother. Atleast Toss have the luxury of cannons in their mineral lines we don't have that its Drones or nothing.(We can wait for Lings to pop but thats only on 6Pool Drone allin other wise Drones will hold it) Dance around(Pull back when shields are gone as you regenerate faster than Lings do.) as you don't have creep in your main the Lings can't catch our Probes and make a a cannon/Chrono boost a Zealot and its gg right there. Follow up with 2 Gate/4 Gate and the Zerg can't defend it. Unless they 9Pooled like I do then you will get compeltely stomped. I don't see how you say if you Pool>Hatch and then we can't lose, If we pool>hatch and you wall our expo and cannons as Lings pop its GG. We had to change from Hatch first to Pool first just because Toss started Forge first and if you start getting 6Pooled more then change up your build we had to do it. Play protoss and try to defend a 6 pool with your ideas. you'll fall behind in tech/pylons especially if you walled your rampimo best way to counter a 6 pool is to skip gas, get second gateway and mass zealots. getting a forge sets you way behind and is auto lose in some cases ._>
Considering that's the opposite of what he just advocated, I don't see how this response is even valid.
Anyway, here are some mid-master replays on 6pool vs 12 forge FE on shakuras plateau:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ON5fj.png)
http://drop.sc/40746 --> 12 forge, walled with cannon, easy win
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/btDHX.png)
http://drop.sc/40747 --> 12 forge, lings didn't focus the forward forge, loss (should have been an easy win)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZrTz2.png)
http://drop.sc/40748 --> 12 forge (this is the standard wall in my opinion), easy win
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p29J1.png)
http://drop.sc/40749 --> 12 forge L-wall, lings didn't focus side pylons, loss (should have been easy win)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/crawz.png)
http://drop.sc/40750 --> 12 forge L-wall, easy win
Essentially, all five of these games should have been easy wins, of which three actually were. This is a 12 forge that goes down blindly in the cases when he doesn't scout me first, with full probe cutting once he scouts the 6 pool. My build order each time was 6 pool, 10 lings, double extractor trick into 4 more lings, scout on 1:39-1:42 (specific to this map).
The wall fails (or should have failed) in every one of these games. I still believe there are no FFE wall placements that will sustain against a well-executed 6 pool on this map. The counter has and will continue to be simply making a pylon and cannon in your mineral line.
If you watch closely though, especially in game 5, there are some things a protoss could probably do to survive this with minimal probe losses with very clever backup pylon placement and partial walling with probes/etc. But all of this is so much more difficult to execute than simply placing a pylon in your mineral line followed by a cannon.
If you FFE on this map, scout a 6 pool, and then try to wall instead of pylon/cannoning your mineral line, expect to die.
edit: thought it was worth adding this here...
I've played 15 games over the past year where I've 6 pooled Shakuras Plateau ZvP vs FFE where protoss attempts to wall (from platinum to GM range):
12 wins, 3 loss
6 times protoss successfully completed a wall
3 times I don't focus fire the correct building and lost the game because of it.
|
Guys, you need to stop running out "pylon/cannon your minerals" as some kind of magic 6 pool counter. With PERFECT micro and losing ZERO probes this only puts you approximately even with the zerg. If you lose ANY probes defending that cannon warping in you are behind. Past that, can you chase off six lings with a zealot and a couple probes without losing any probes or the zealot? If you can't, you're again behind because those 6 lings can deny your gas until you've chased them off.
If the zerg only sends 6-8 lings off his 6 pool, he will hit 22 workers before you do even if you lose zero probes. He will expand before you do. In fact a perfect defense by the Protoss basically ends up transitioning the game into a standard 14 pool vs sentry expand game, just delayed a few minutes for both side, except the Protoss has the small advantage that they already have the forge and don't need to build it after the expansion.
This is why 6 pool is popular on ladder. Against FFE, a good percentage of the time, it simply wins on the spot. If it doesn't win on the spot, you're still even at worst. Most Protoss players would much rather FFE and being forced into essentially playing a sentry expand game puts them off their game. It's win-win no matter what the Protoss does. The only way you can be severely behind with a 6 pool opening is if the Protoss does gate-first and defends well. On FFE-capable maps in Masters and GM, I would guess that less than 10% of Protoss players opt to sentry-expand. With the exception of diagonal positions on Shakuras Plateau, where you can actually wall yourself off in time, 6 pool is GUARANTEED to leave you even with the Protoss in the absolute worst case where he defends perfectly if he opens FFE. There is no risk. That's why it's so popular and even all the GM Zergs are doing it.
|
Ok. I've read through a lot of this topic and i have 1 question.
How is 6 pool considered OP against FFE? There is ALWAYS risk in FFE and a 6 pool thrives off of you taking that risk.. so tell me how is it Overpowered when YOU TOOK the risk to FFE over going Gateway first? Someone explain this please.. i really don't understand your logic at all.
|
The title of this thread is both retarded and smart. Smart because you have to open it and see all the rage. Dumb because overpowered isn't discussed in strat usually.
anyways from a zerg who always macros and never rushes, i say your just going through what i had to endure with 2rax against terran when i 14 hatched.
Hell.
Best of luck, but what i did was refine my opening to a science and made it alot less greedy and macro hard when i had the opportunities. Sounds way to generic sorry but that's the only way i can explain myself. glhf
|
On October 05 2011 09:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 04:46 askTeivospy wrote:On September 30 2011 20:51 -Dustin- wrote:On September 30 2011 13:26 Oreo7 wrote:On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote:On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy. You can't really make a comparison. I feel no sympathy for you. 6Pool is weak I face it all the time in ZvZ I defend it by making nothing but Drones. Workers competely destroy any kind of early pool, You just mieral walk and surround them and its pretty much GG right there even if you lose some of yor probes. You can also pull back the low hp ones so you take no loses its not that hard but most people don't even bother. Atleast Toss have the luxury of cannons in their mineral lines we don't have that its Drones or nothing.(We can wait for Lings to pop but thats only on 6Pool Drone allin other wise Drones will hold it) Dance around(Pull back when shields are gone as you regenerate faster than Lings do.) as you don't have creep in your main the Lings can't catch our Probes and make a a cannon/Chrono boost a Zealot and its gg right there. Follow up with 2 Gate/4 Gate and the Zerg can't defend it. Unless they 9Pooled like I do then you will get compeltely stomped. I don't see how you say if you Pool>Hatch and then we can't lose, If we pool>hatch and you wall our expo and cannons as Lings pop its GG. We had to change from Hatch first to Pool first just because Toss started Forge first and if you start getting 6Pooled more then change up your build we had to do it. Play protoss and try to defend a 6 pool with your ideas. you'll fall behind in tech/pylons especially if you walled your rampimo best way to counter a 6 pool is to skip gas, get second gateway and mass zealots. getting a forge sets you way behind and is auto lose in some cases ._> Considering that's the opposite of what he just advocated, I don't see how this response is even valid. Anyway, here are some mid-master replays on 6pool vs 12 forge FE on shakuras plateau: http://drop.sc/40746 --> 12 forge, walled with cannon, easy win http://drop.sc/40747 --> 12 forge, lings didn't focus the forward forge, loss (should have been an easy win) http://drop.sc/40748 --> 12 forge (this is the standard wall in my opinion), easy win http://drop.sc/40749 --> 12 forge L-wall, lings didn't focus side pylons, loss (should have been easy win) http://drop.sc/40750 --> 12 forge L-wall, easy win Essentially, all five of these games should have been easy wins, of which three actually were. This is a 12 forge that goes down blindly in the cases when he doesn't scout me first, with full probe cutting once he scouts the 6 pool. My build order each time was 6 pool, 10 lings, double extractor trick into 4 more lings, scout on 1:39-1:42 (specific to this map). The wall fails (or should have failed) in every one of these games. I still believe there are no FFE wall placements that will sustain against a well-executed 6 pool on this map. The counter has and will continue to be simply making a pylon and cannon in your mineral line. If you watch closely though, especially in game 5, there are some things a protoss could probably do to survive this with minimal probe losses with very clever backup pylon placement and partial walling with probes/etc. But all of this is so much more difficult to execute than simply placing a pylon in your mineral line followed by a cannon. If you FFE on this map, scout a 6 pool, and then try to wall instead of pylon/cannoning your mineral line, expect to die.
i really feel the best way to beat a 6pool is with a 14forge that does a pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall at the front and puts a cannon in the mineral line, cannon at the wall, and does a temp walloff when the lings arrive and pulls some probes to protect the cannon as its warping in
14forge has more economy and is able to do this easily
id gladly play against your 6pool to show how its done
|
On October 05 2011 11:14 roymarthyup wrote:
i really feel the best way to beat a 6pool is with a 14forge that does a pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall at the front and puts a cannon in the mineral line, cannon at the wall, and does a temp walloff when the lings arrive and pulls some probes to protect the cannon as its warping in
14forge has more economy and is able to do this easily
id gladly play against your 6pool to show how its done
Do you have a replay? I also saw your post in the 7 pool thread claiming the same thing, and I've yet to see a replay...
On October 04 2011 11:59 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.
It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead. i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see
If you FFE, pylon/cannon in mineral line is the best way to defend 6 pool, hands down. It doesn't mean protoss is miles ahead or even very ahead at all. But it's the only safe way to not die if you FFE'd and scout a 6 pool.
If i saw this being attempted, I wouldn't even bother going into the mineral line, and instead would just take the free gateway, forge and 2 pylons and be ahead... Why would you commit an extra 250 minerals to a wall that will die?
Is your line of thought "I can get him to come into my main and keep the gateway/forge alive" ?? Doing this is no better than simply opening pylon/forge at the natural then pylon/cannon at teh mineral line. The difference is that you'll lose that gateway and extra pylon...
|
I know 10 pool into FE is a really strong build mainly vs P and Z. 10 pool doesn't put you behind really hard like 6 pool does and it is obviously super duper safe. I find often times with 10 pool you can get a Zealot and maybe even a Pylon kill, back off and expo safely.
|
zerg is behind if dealt with appropriately. dont understand the people here saying its a win-win.
If i FFE, see early pool, i have ONE forge and ONE pylon. I build pylon in mineral line, and build a cannon in mineral line. Then, just chrono probes.. ignore the lings if they get close cannon will kill them ez.
Zerg will proceed to kill pylon and forge. I build gateway, get gas and have an accumulation of chrono boosts. Chrono probes.
Zerg has 2 choices, all in more with as many ling as he can get, or drone. Most likely will drone. I like to get ~3 zealots and send them to his base. It forces more lings or spines, as his expo will be starting to build around this time. You can afford to trade your zealots for his lings.
You're still ahead. You can expo, or 5 gate blink all in. He will need spines or a reasonable amount of speedlings (smaller drone count) to stop it.
Dont understand what the big deal is here... 6 pool really isnt that good, it's based around protoss' being unprepared (which is common) or just not knowing how to respond to it...
Otherwise 6 pooling would be a reasonable opening every game, which it isn't. herp.
|
On October 05 2011 12:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 11:14 roymarthyup wrote:
i really feel the best way to beat a 6pool is with a 14forge that does a pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall at the front and puts a cannon in the mineral line, cannon at the wall, and does a temp walloff when the lings arrive and pulls some probes to protect the cannon as its warping in
14forge has more economy and is able to do this easily
id gladly play against your 6pool to show how its done Do you have a replay? I also saw your post in the 7 pool thread claiming the same thing, and I've yet to see a replay... Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 11:59 roymarthyup wrote:On October 04 2011 10:18 Zelniq wrote:On October 04 2011 09:01 FabledIntegral wrote:
I use this build on Shakuras about 80% of the time ZvP. It works best on Shakuras simply because your overlord can scout which base they are at in time, so you don't have to drone scout.
It's very economical if you can force them to pull probes for a while, kill maybe 1-2 probes, and possibly get them to make a building they're forced to cancel, you come out ahead. i'm confused..players at your level don't wall off their natural in time for your lings? is there something i dont understand cus when I tested it once, it just put zerg behind as their lings could do zero damage. no pulling probes, no lost units or buildings, just cutting probes at 14 for like 20 seconds to make the gate/cannon/gate mb you can try it on me in a custom game? hey zel id be willing to 6pool against you once just so we can provide a replay for this thread. im pretty confident in my ability to do a perfect 6pool, however i still believe it only works against tosses opening a greedy FFE. safe FFE with a 14forge and pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall should always beat 6pool i think we should do it on shakuras or TDA or heck maybe 1game on each ill pm you my charactor ID tomorrow or in 2days or somethin and whenever were not busy we can play a game or something to see If you FFE, pylon/cannon in mineral line is the best way to defend 6 pool, hands down. It doesn't mean protoss is miles ahead or even very ahead at all. But it's the only safe way to not die if you FFE'd and scout a 6 pool. If i saw this being attempted, I wouldn't even bother going into the mineral line, and instead would just take the free gateway, forge and 2 pylons and be ahead... Why would you commit an extra 250 minerals to a wall that will die? Is your line of thought "I can get him to come into my main and keep the gateway/forge alive" ?? Doing this is no better than simply opening pylon/forge at the natural then pylon/cannon at teh mineral line. The difference is that you'll lose that gateway and extra pylon...
i put up two cannons around the time lings arrive. one in my mineral line, one behind my wall. plus i do a pylon/gateway/forge/pylon wall before the lings arrive so both of my cannons can get up. 14forge with double chronoboost before the forge has more economy and it can do this
i have no replays because zerg hasnt 6pooled me in forever. but i can play any zerg if they wanna see it in action
|
@michaelhasanalias: Great post regarding your games.
Based on your post and the screen shots only, I would just make two observations (and I note upfront that these don't change my overall opinion, based on my own testing, that walling off against 6pool is generally unreliable - I think we are in agreement on this):
First, none of the players in the screenshots have walled off correctly (ie forge at the furthest end of the ramp, then gateway/gateway completing the wall. Walling off in this way is important because (1) there is no weak pylon or cannon to attack - the weakest link is the forge - and (2) the correct positioning of the forge allows you to add 1 gateway and 1 pylon to maintain the seal when the forge dies. Provided you only make one cannon (which is all you need), you have just enough minerals to put down a pylon and gateway just before the forge dies. I agree the forge will die before the cannon completes in many cases.
Second, you have said that in each of the games your opponent built a forge on 12. It may seem counter-intuitive, but based on my tests you are actually better off sending your 13th probe to make the forge (ie build on 14) than you are sending your 11th (build on 12). By sending your 11th, you actually don't have enough money in time to make gateway cannon gateway - your cannon is actually delayed by a few critical seconds. The reason for this seems to be that by going 12 forge (and stopping probes), you have 10 probes mining, 1 scouting, and 1 building a forge. By going 14 forge, you have 12 probes mining. Now whilst you save 100 minerals by stopping probes on 12, it actually appears that the two additional probes have more than compensated for their 100 mineral cost by the time your forge completes.
Seeing as you have an interest in early pool timings, I would very much like to test some of these timings with you. I generally hang out in [TA] / op ngen on SEA (where I see you sometimes play), so I'd love to test the timings with you some time. Personally, I'm more interested in 8, 9 and 10 pool timings, as I see these as far more dangerous builds than 6 pool.
|
Regarding scouting on FFE maps, i usually send a 9 scout and then send my probe that built the forge to scout the final position that hasnt beeen scouted. Both my probes arrive at the 2nd and 3rd spawns at around the same time and i have enough time to either finish my wall off (on taldarim and shakuras, nerazim crypt, abyssal caverns) or put a pylon and canon in my mineral line (on antigua shipyard).
Good replays for defending 6/7 pool are the Huk vs Moon game on taldarim at DreamHack, and Sage vs Check Game 2 on antigua in this months GSL code A. The former game has Huk finishing his wall off and the latter has Sage abandoning his forge and cannoning his mineral line. In both games they hold off the rush with ease. Huk even said in an interview after DreamHack that he felt relieved when he saw the 6 pool lol.
|
Well, they could always make the spawning pool cost 250 or 300 to discourage early pools... especially since there is no equivalent in either P or T because we have to build a pylon/sdepot first. 6pool used to be fine until people realized they could just drone like crazy off of it. It's getting a little ridiculous now.
|
i refuse to believe 6 pool is op..
its like what, 15 workers to 6?
toss has no tech!
zerg has nothing...
he'll catchup eventually.. but he'll always be worse off than if he hadn't 6 pooled
it would have to be something like playing while 10%~ behind
|
On October 05 2011 15:04 Go1den wrote:
Well, they could always make the spawning pool cost 250 or 300 to discourage early pools... especially since there is no equivalent in either P or T because we have to build a pylon/sdepot first. 6pool used to be fine until people realized they could just drone like crazy off of it. It's getting a little ridiculous now.
Me as a Terran likes that idea. 2 rax them zergies :D .
(just stating why it shouldnt)
|
On October 05 2011 13:38 ZealotMaster wrote:
@michaelhasanalias: Great post regarding your games.
Based on your post and the screen shots only, I would just make two observations (and I note upfront that these don't change my overall opinion, based on my own testing, that walling off against 6pool is generally unreliable - I think we are in agreement on this):
First, none of the players in the screenshots have walled off correctly (ie forge at the furthest end of the ramp, then gateway/gateway completing the wall. Walling off in this way is important because (1) there is no weak pylon or cannon to attack - the weakest link is the forge - and (2) the correct positioning of the forge allows you to add 1 gateway and 1 pylon to maintain the seal when the forge dies. Provided you only make one cannon (which is all you need), you have just enough minerals to put down a pylon and gateway just before the forge dies. I agree the forge will die before the cannon completes in many cases.
Second, you have said that in each of the games your opponent built a forge on 12. It may seem counter-intuitive, but based on my tests you are actually better off sending your 13th probe to make the forge (ie build on 14) than you are sending your 11th (build on 12). By sending your 11th, you actually don't have enough money in time to make gateway cannon gateway - your cannon is actually delayed by a few critical seconds. The reason for this seems to be that by going 12 forge (and stopping probes), you have 10 probes mining, 1 scouting, and 1 building a forge. By going 14 forge, you have 12 probes mining. Now whilst you save 100 minerals by stopping probes on 12, it actually appears that the two additional probes have more than compensated for their 100 mineral cost by the time your forge completes.
Seeing as you have an interest in early pool timings, I would very much like to test some of these timings with you. I generally hang out in [TA] / op ngen on SEA (where I see you sometimes play), so I'd love to test the timings with you some time. Personally, I'm more interested in 8, 9 and 10 pool timings, as I see these as far more dangerous builds than 6 pool.
yeah one of the things i was wondering (since I don't play protoss either, and frankly wonder why I'm trying to help P survive early game against my main race), is whether 12 was indeed better. It seems you'd start the cannon as soon as the forge finishes, but this is usually impossible anyway with scouting timings. I think 14 forge might allow more money to put up a better wall. I don't know if there's anything you can really do to survive a 6 pool if you invest heavily in completing a wall, but maybe someone has a good way.
to be perfectly honest though, I don't really want to spend any more time arguing or testing or optimizing protoss defense in these 6 pool threads though because I wasted my entire morning (which should have been spent practicing) to do those tests and make that post, and I'd rather just practice more standard play during my practice hours. I'll definitely message you next time I'm on SEA though and we can play a few.
|
On October 05 2011 15:11 Let it Raine wrote:
i refuse to believe 6 pool is op..
its like what, 15 workers to 6?
toss has no tech!
zerg has nothing...
he'll catchup eventually.. but he'll always be worse off than if he hadn't 6 pooled
it would have to be something like playing while 10%~ behind
Refuse all you want, but those 6 lings will kill every single one of your 15 workers. I have lost to like 5 pools in a row at the time of writing. They where all on 4 player maps where I scouted him last (even when I use two workers. His units are already on the way when before I can get the forge down. He then focuses the forge, kills every one of my workers, and both canons before they are even close to finishing.
I'm starting to call this OP as well. You can't possibly expect us to go 10 forge every single game in case the zerg decides to allin.
Btw, these are 6 pools when I'm not fast expanding, but I do usually 13 gate. At one time I put down the gate at 11, scouted him second on metal, and still didn't hold..
|
You guys have to learn to stutter step your zealots if you can't hold 6 pool with gate first. 1 zealot kills 5 slow lings by itself if you stutter it.
|
It's not overpowered, a Nexus first or FFE is incredibly risky and if it is unpunished the zerg player falls significantly far behind unless they are equally greedy - which most FFE players intentionally all-in after to punish. This is why so many people all-in on FFE maps against Protoss in ZvP, it's very hard otherwise.
There are quite a few other all-ins that are more reactional than a 6 pool and can completely crush a FFE, as July shows time after time.
|
On October 10 2011 11:09 Xequecal wrote:
You guys have to learn to stutter step your zealots if you can't hold 6 pool with gate first. 1 zealot kills 5 slow lings by itself if you stutter it.
Tried the Morrow's micro race? Theres a level there with 1 zealot vs 4 full hp lings and one 50%hp ling. They are on attack move, and still it usually takes 10+ tries before I get it. Now imagine if these zerglings surrounds instead of blindly following.
No, a zealot will not kill 5 fullhp zerglings. Micro or not.
|
On October 10 2011 10:57 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 15:11 Let it Raine wrote:
i refuse to believe 6 pool is op..
its like what, 15 workers to 6?
toss has no tech!
zerg has nothing...
he'll catchup eventually.. but he'll always be worse off than if he hadn't 6 pooled
it would have to be something like playing while 10%~ behind
Refuse all you want, but those 6 lings will kill every single one of your 15 workers. I have lost to like 5 pools in a row at the time of writing. They where all on 4 player maps where I scouted him last (even when I use two workers. His units are already on the way when before I can get the forge down. He then focuses the forge, kills every one of my workers, and both canons before they are even close to finishing. I'm starting to call this OP as well. You can't possibly expect us to go 10 forge every single game in case the zerg decides to allin. Btw, these are 6 pools when I'm not fast expanding, but I do usually 13 gate. At one time I put down the gate at 11, scouted him second on metal, and still didn't hold..
You shouldn't be losing to 6pool, it's something you're doing wrong if you are and not 6p being overpowered
(it's not)
|
its not overpowered just quite difficult to defend
|
On October 10 2011 11:33 HenryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:57 Excludos wrote:On October 05 2011 15:11 Let it Raine wrote:
i refuse to believe 6 pool is op..
its like what, 15 workers to 6?
toss has no tech!
zerg has nothing...
he'll catchup eventually.. but he'll always be worse off than if he hadn't 6 pooled
it would have to be something like playing while 10%~ behind
Refuse all you want, but those 6 lings will kill every single one of your 15 workers. I have lost to like 5 pools in a row at the time of writing. They where all on 4 player maps where I scouted him last (even when I use two workers. His units are already on the way when before I can get the forge down. He then focuses the forge, kills every one of my workers, and both canons before they are even close to finishing. I'm starting to call this OP as well. You can't possibly expect us to go 10 forge every single game in case the zerg decides to allin. Btw, these are 6 pools when I'm not fast expanding, but I do usually 13 gate. At one time I put down the gate at 11, scouted him second on metal, and still didn't hold.. You shouldn't be losing to 6pool, it's something you're doing wrong if you are and not 6p being overpowered (it's not)
You'd think so. But on these 4 player maps like Taldarim, if you scout him last, even with double scout, you wont see it before he's already on his way with the lings. If you place down a forge then, his units will have taken down the forge and all your probes before the canon is even halfway finished.
If you spot his scouting probe, then you can blindly put down a forge too, which is will be doing from now on. The problem comes when the zerg 9 scouts (for some very odd reason, a couple of zergs do this), and you put down a forge thinking it could be a rush, you'll end up incredibly far behind.
|
When playing vs zerg I normally FFE. I always build second pylon by main nexus. When seeing an early pool I put down cannon in my mineral line and a second pylon if I think I'll lose the first one at my main. I will lose the forge and pylon on the low ground, but am still way ahead in the game. Don't have problems with early pools now.
|
if 6 pool is overpowered due to not scouting it then i guess proxy rax and proxy gates are as well.
|
On October 10 2011 10:57 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 15:11 Let it Raine wrote:
i refuse to believe 6 pool is op..
its like what, 15 workers to 6?
toss has no tech!
zerg has nothing...
he'll catchup eventually.. but he'll always be worse off than if he hadn't 6 pooled
it would have to be something like playing while 10%~ behind
Refuse all you want, but those 6 lings will kill every single one of your 15 workers. I have lost to like 5 pools in a row at the time of writing. They where all on 4 player maps where I scouted him last (even when I use two workers. His units are already on the way when before I can get the forge down. He then focuses the forge, kills every one of my workers, and both canons before they are even close to finishing. I'm starting to call this OP as well. You can't possibly expect us to go 10 forge every single game in case the zerg decides to allin. Btw, these are 6 pools when I'm not fast expanding, but I do usually 13 gate. At one time I put down the gate at 11, scouted him second on metal, and still didn't hold..
If you are losing all of your workers to 6 zerglings then you sir, are doing something wrong.
|
I sometimes feel SC2 players are just too damn sensitive when it comes to super early aggression.
if it fails without doing enough damage 6 Pool will leave the Zerg in the stone age. Many P players have defended 6 pool.
|
On October 10 2011 13:14 birdkicker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 10:57 Excludos wrote:On October 05 2011 15:11 Let it Raine wrote:
i refuse to believe 6 pool is op..
its like what, 15 workers to 6?
toss has no tech!
zerg has nothing...
he'll catchup eventually.. but he'll always be worse off than if he hadn't 6 pooled
it would have to be something like playing while 10%~ behind
Refuse all you want, but those 6 lings will kill every single one of your 15 workers. I have lost to like 5 pools in a row at the time of writing. They where all on 4 player maps where I scouted him last (even when I use two workers. His units are already on the way when before I can get the forge down. He then focuses the forge, kills every one of my workers, and both canons before they are even close to finishing. I'm starting to call this OP as well. You can't possibly expect us to go 10 forge every single game in case the zerg decides to allin. Btw, these are 6 pools when I'm not fast expanding, but I do usually 13 gate. At one time I put down the gate at 11, scouted him second on metal, and still didn't hold.. If you are losing all of your workers to 6 zerglings then you sir, are doing something wrong.
Dunno how you'd think 13-15 probes vs 8 zerglings is going to work out.. Not to mention you'll be fighting in a choke, as you're trying to keep the lings out, or they'll just kite forever. And 8 lings in a choke can pretty much kill of infinite workers..
Usually I can end up with somewhere around 4-5 workers left. However, by then the zerg player will be at 12+. You'll be too far behind to ever catch up.
edit: And yes, a proper 6pool is with 8 zerglings with the 2 last ones coming about 7-8 ingame seconds later.
|
On September 28 2011 16:13 kazie wrote:
dam. this means if u make ur wall and cannon faster you'll win 80% of ur games without even trying! lucky you
Best way to sum up cheese, if you purposefully play extra safe then you'll get a surprising number of freewins on ladder. I find that if I open 1 rax CC into 4 rax I end up either holding stupid 1 base all-ins from protoss super easily, or just killing them if they do a greedy tech build (like 3 gate warp prism bs or twilight rush).
|
Well, i have started playing again SC2 and I have the same problem as the OP. Litterally 9 out of 10 zergs goes for a 6 pool. Even if they only kill 1 probe, they will expand since i can't put preassure, and they will be ahead because I haven't been mining for ages.
I mean, i can understant going 9 out of 10 times for a 6 pool if you are playing for money and you feel u really cant win otherwise. But when you play ladder? It's the most pathetic thing i have ever seen in this game.
And the people that says: "just build your wall earlier". My probes don't scout at the speed of light...
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 11 2011 03:40 XupinatoR wrote:
Well, i have started playing again SC2 and I have the same problem as the OP. Litterally 9 out of 10 zergs goes for a 6 pool. Even if they only kill 1 probe, they will expand since i can't put preassure, and they will be ahead because I haven't been mining for ages.
I mean, i can understant going 9 out of 10 times for a 6 pool if you are playing for money and you feel u really cant win otherwise. But when you play ladder? It's the most pathetic thing i have ever seen in this game.
And the people that says: "just build your wall earlier". My probes don't scout at the speed of light... I think economic 6pools are probably a legit opening. By that I mean they put you in at worst an even position going into the midgame.
|
Why are you going FFE if you can't hold zerg allins when going FFE and 90% of the zergs you meet go allin? 6pool is not even viable against gateway openings.
|
So if you play slightly safer, you'll be winning 89% of your ladder matches... damn i wish sc2 was that ez for me.
|
Remeber what Huk said at dreamhack when he defeated Moon's six pool. He said that if he didn't scout Moon when he did, he would have sent another probe to scout the other positions. aka having 2 probes scout when the first one fails so that you are sure to find them in 2 checks. You must do this many cases when you are forge fast expanding.
|
On October 11 2011 04:16 .Sic. wrote:
So if you play slightly safer, you'll be winning 89% of your ladder matches... damn i wish sc2 was that ez for me.
SO true. 6 pool is not by any means OP and if you get 6 pooled 90% of the game, then open with a gateway and you win.
|
Yeah, when you do the forge fast-expand, which is by some even considered an "economical cheese". You have to look out for them cheeses! :p
|
Question:
Completely theorycrafting here but would it be possible to do pylon/forge in main, and then pylon/ cannon below ramp in your natural, after scouting? If he six pools, cancel pylon and lose nothing (ok, 25 minerals, as opposed to 250 if you lose pylon/forge). You can also start your cannon earlier. If he makes pool on 14 or later, in the worst case your nexus is delayed by that second pylon (which you usually make anyway).
The only drawbacks are, 1 - you will be at a disadvantage if he does something like an 8 pool, since you can't expand. 2- if he plays standard, you have one fewer building to make a wall with, and might need to make an early second gateway.
Has anyone tried this?
|
On October 11 2011 05:51 eugalp wrote:
Question:
Completely theorycrafting here but would it be possible to do pylon/forge in main, and then pylon/ cannon below ramp in your natural, after scouting? If he six pools, cancel pylon and lose nothing (ok, 25 minerals, as opposed to 250 if you lose pylon/forge). You can also start your cannon earlier. If he makes pool on 14 or later, in the worst case your nexus is delayed by that second pylon (which you usually make anyway).
The only drawbacks are, 1 - you will be at a disadvantage if he does something like an 8 pool, since you can't expand. 2- if he plays standard, you have one fewer building to make a wall with, and might need to make an early second gateway.
Has anyone tried this?
It would be really bad. If you forge/pylon your main, then put a pylon at lower ramp, then a 6 pool basically forces you to cancel pylon right? Therefore the only cannon you can place will go in main, but you can only move out after you make a gateway and 2 zealots (assuming he only made 6 lings which is usually not the case). Imagine a scenario where the lings just camp outside your base and you either waiting to make the gate and enough zealots or you cannon hopping down to your natural; not a good scenario. Time constraints dictate that you place your pylon forge at front of natural on a map that you FFE on
|
On October 11 2011 06:17 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 05:51 eugalp wrote:
Question:
Completely theorycrafting here but would it be possible to do pylon/forge in main, and then pylon/ cannon below ramp in your natural, after scouting? If he six pools, cancel pylon and lose nothing (ok, 25 minerals, as opposed to 250 if you lose pylon/forge). You can also start your cannon earlier. If he makes pool on 14 or later, in the worst case your nexus is delayed by that second pylon (which you usually make anyway).
The only drawbacks are, 1 - you will be at a disadvantage if he does something like an 8 pool, since you can't expand. 2- if he plays standard, you have one fewer building to make a wall with, and might need to make an early second gateway.
Has anyone tried this? It would be really bad. If you forge/pylon your main, then put a pylon at lower ramp, then a 6 pool basically forces you to cancel pylon right? Therefore the only cannon you can place will go in main, but you can only move out after you make a gateway and 2 zealots (assuming he only made 6 lings which is usually not the case). Imagine a scenario where the lings just camp outside your base and you either waiting to make the gate and enough zealots or you cannon hopping down to your natural; not a good scenario. Time constraints dictate that you place your pylon forge at front of natural on a map that you FFE on
How exactly is my way worse than making a pylon and forge at natural, and then losing them to lings?
|
When your 9 scout doesn't find the zerg in the 1st scouted base, drop forge at 13 and then scout with that probe the 3rd base. Almost every pro does it ...
you should also drop a 15 pylon in base if you don't scout him at the 2nd expansion with your 9scout
|
they should make you CREATE OVERLORD before pool FOR EXAMPLE, DEPOT BEFOR RAX AND PYLON BEFORE GATEWAY
|
On October 11 2011 06:33 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 06:17 tehemperorer wrote:On October 11 2011 05:51 eugalp wrote:
Question:
Completely theorycrafting here but would it be possible to do pylon/forge in main, and then pylon/ cannon below ramp in your natural, after scouting? If he six pools, cancel pylon and lose nothing (ok, 25 minerals, as opposed to 250 if you lose pylon/forge). You can also start your cannon earlier. If he makes pool on 14 or later, in the worst case your nexus is delayed by that second pylon (which you usually make anyway).
The only drawbacks are, 1 - you will be at a disadvantage if he does something like an 8 pool, since you can't expand. 2- if he plays standard, you have one fewer building to make a wall with, and might need to make an early second gateway.
Has anyone tried this? It would be really bad. If you forge/pylon your main, then put a pylon at lower ramp, then a 6 pool basically forces you to cancel pylon right? Therefore the only cannon you can place will go in main, but you can only move out after you make a gateway and 2 zealots (assuming he only made 6 lings which is usually not the case). Imagine a scenario where the lings just camp outside your base and you either waiting to make the gate and enough zealots or you cannon hopping down to your natural; not a good scenario. Time constraints dictate that you place your pylon forge at front of natural on a map that you FFE on How exactly is my way worse than making a pylon and forge at natural, and then losing them to lings?
If you know a six pool is coming at the very start of the game then there are multiple ways to crush it, yours might work but its not ideal because --> if he is NOT 6 pooling (which you can't scout until after your forge placement is decided) then you are behind with your version of the opening.
Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.
The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.
I'm confused by a lot of the protoss in this thread that seem to think that 6lings in your base is a loss. Lings are so weak w/o speed that good probe micro should be able to keep you in decent shape with minimal losses until you put a cannon up in the mineral line.
If you don't have the micro to not sustain losses against slow lings than you probably shouldn't use an opener that's leaves you having to do that against a 6 pool. If you are getting cheesed repeatedly and dieing than for crying out loud don't open with such greedy build and play safer until you do.
|
On September 28 2011 16:21 Nyter wrote:
Oh sorry, I wasn't clear, I always do my FFE as the following:
13 forge
(pool before hatch):
15 cannon
16 gate
16 pylon
17 nexus
I think that's kinda overdoing it. Just a cannon will help you hold against most early rushes. I'd just skip the gate, get a 16 pylon, then a nexus. If you want to be extra safe, put another cannon down AFTER the nexus.
And don't FFE in maps with 2 or very wide entrances to your natural. Hence why you're always much safer going for a Sentry expand on maps like Metalopolis or Typhon Peaks (since we're talking about ladder).
|
On October 11 2011 06:52 Darth Caedus wrote:
Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.
The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.
You are only missing one piece in your wall - the forge. You will not be THAT far behind if you just make another gateway instead, which you will need later on anyway. A lot of builds require or include a second gateway regardless (Kiwikaki's build for example). Also if it is just a roach ling pressure (not an all in) then it doesn't come until later.
Again, yes, you make a small (IMO) sacrifice for safety. You can't have everything.
|
On October 11 2011 03:40 XupinatoR wrote:
Well, i have started playing again SC2 and I have the same problem as the OP. Litterally 9 out of 10 zergs goes for a 6 pool. Even if they only kill 1 probe, they will expand since i can't put preassure, and they will be ahead because I haven't been mining for ages.
I mean, i can understant going 9 out of 10 times for a 6 pool if you are playing for money and you feel u really cant win otherwise. But when you play ladder? It's the most pathetic thing i have ever seen in this game.
And the people that says: "just build your wall earlier". My probes don't scout at the speed of light...
Well, if 9 out of 10 zerg do it, you don't even need to scout. Just do something that wins against 6pool, and you automatically get 90% winrate versus zerg even if it loses without any chance against the last 10%. Don't know what exactly that would be, but i assume that just about everything should work just fine if you start with a 10gate. If you can't play your build safely against cheese (which should be possible with good micro), then don't play that build if you get cheesed in 9/10 of your games.
On October 11 2011 07:12 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 06:52 Darth Caedus wrote:
Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.
The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.
You are only missing one piece in your wall - the forge. You will not be THAT far behind if you just make another gateway instead, which you will need later on anyway. A lot of builds require or include a second gateway regardless (Kiwikaki's build for example). Also if it is just a roach ling pressure (not an all in) then it doesn't come until later. Again, yes, you make a small (IMO) sacrifice for safety. You can't have everything.
I am pretty sure that every usual pool timing, not only early pools, should be able to prevent you from getting down your ramp if you start with a forge on the highground. Or it will cost you at least another cannon on the high ground guarding the low-ground one while it is warping in.
|
United States1823 Posts
On October 05 2011 09:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 04:46 askTeivospy wrote:On September 30 2011 20:51 -Dustin- wrote:On September 30 2011 13:26 Oreo7 wrote:On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote:On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy. You can't really make a comparison. I feel no sympathy for you. 6Pool is weak I face it all the time in ZvZ I defend it by making nothing but Drones. Workers competely destroy any kind of early pool, You just mieral walk and surround them and its pretty much GG right there even if you lose some of yor probes. You can also pull back the low hp ones so you take no loses its not that hard but most people don't even bother. Atleast Toss have the luxury of cannons in their mineral lines we don't have that its Drones or nothing.(We can wait for Lings to pop but thats only on 6Pool Drone allin other wise Drones will hold it) Dance around(Pull back when shields are gone as you regenerate faster than Lings do.) as you don't have creep in your main the Lings can't catch our Probes and make a a cannon/Chrono boost a Zealot and its gg right there. Follow up with 2 Gate/4 Gate and the Zerg can't defend it. Unless they 9Pooled like I do then you will get compeltely stomped. I don't see how you say if you Pool>Hatch and then we can't lose, If we pool>hatch and you wall our expo and cannons as Lings pop its GG. We had to change from Hatch first to Pool first just because Toss started Forge first and if you start getting 6Pooled more then change up your build we had to do it. Play protoss and try to defend a 6 pool with your ideas. you'll fall behind in tech/pylons especially if you walled your rampimo best way to counter a 6 pool is to skip gas, get second gateway and mass zealots. getting a forge sets you way behind and is auto lose in some cases ._> Considering that's the opposite of what he just advocated, I don't see how this response is even valid. Anyway, here are some mid-master replays on 6pool vs 12 forge FE on shakuras plateau: http://drop.sc/40746 --> 12 forge, walled with cannon, easy win http://drop.sc/40747 --> 12 forge, lings didn't focus the forward forge, loss (should have been an easy win) http://drop.sc/40748 --> 12 forge (this is the standard wall in my opinion), easy win http://drop.sc/40749 --> 12 forge L-wall, lings didn't focus side pylons, loss (should have been easy win) http://drop.sc/40750 --> 12 forge L-wall, easy win Essentially, all five of these games should have been easy wins, of which three actually were. This is a 12 forge that goes down blindly in the cases when he doesn't scout me first, with full probe cutting once he scouts the 6 pool. My build order each time was 6 pool, 10 lings, double extractor trick into 4 more lings, scout on 1:39-1:42 (specific to this map). The wall fails (or should have failed) in every one of these games. I still believe there are no FFE wall placements that will sustain against a well-executed 6 pool on this map. The counter has and will continue to be simply making a pylon and cannon in your mineral line. If you watch closely though, especially in game 5, there are some things a protoss could probably do to survive this with minimal probe losses with very clever backup pylon placement and partial walling with probes/etc. But all of this is so much more difficult to execute than simply placing a pylon in your mineral line followed by a cannon. If you FFE on this map, scout a 6 pool, and then try to wall instead of pylon/cannoning your mineral line, expect to die. edit: thought it was worth adding this here... I've played 15 games over the past year where I've 6 pooled Shakuras Plateau ZvP vs FFE where protoss attempts to wall (from platinum to GM range): 12 wins, 3 loss 6 times protoss successfully completed a wall 3 times I don't focus fire the correct building and lost the game because of it.
Why don't you wall-off with a forge + 2 gates rather than forge + gate + 2 pylons? Am I missing something here?
|
On October 11 2011 07:20 Simberto wrote:
I am pretty sure that every usual pool timing, not only early pools, should be able to prevent you from getting down your ramp if you start with a forge on the highground. Or it will cost you at least another cannon on the high ground guarding the low-ground one while it is warping in.
A usual pool timing cannot even prevent me from making pylons and cannons below HIS ramp, let alone mine. Pretty sure you are wrong here.
|
On October 11 2011 07:36 Skyro wrote:
Why don't you wall-off with a forge + 2 gates rather than forge + gate + 2 pylons? Am I missing something here?
Not enough minerals
|
United States1823 Posts
On October 11 2011 07:44 Gobbles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 07:36 Skyro wrote:
Why don't you wall-off with a forge + 2 gates rather than forge + gate + 2 pylons? Am I missing something here? Not enough minerals
But 1 gate is cheaper than 2 pylons though...
|
On October 11 2011 07:36 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 09:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:On October 03 2011 04:46 askTeivospy wrote:On September 30 2011 20:51 -Dustin- wrote:On September 30 2011 13:26 Oreo7 wrote:On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote:On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy. You can't really make a comparison. I feel no sympathy for you. 6Pool is weak I face it all the time in ZvZ I defend it by making nothing but Drones. Workers competely destroy any kind of early pool, You just mieral walk and surround them and its pretty much GG right there even if you lose some of yor probes. You can also pull back the low hp ones so you take no loses its not that hard but most people don't even bother. Atleast Toss have the luxury of cannons in their mineral lines we don't have that its Drones or nothing.(We can wait for Lings to pop but thats only on 6Pool Drone allin other wise Drones will hold it) Dance around(Pull back when shields are gone as you regenerate faster than Lings do.) as you don't have creep in your main the Lings can't catch our Probes and make a a cannon/Chrono boost a Zealot and its gg right there. Follow up with 2 Gate/4 Gate and the Zerg can't defend it. Unless they 9Pooled like I do then you will get compeltely stomped. I don't see how you say if you Pool>Hatch and then we can't lose, If we pool>hatch and you wall our expo and cannons as Lings pop its GG. We had to change from Hatch first to Pool first just because Toss started Forge first and if you start getting 6Pooled more then change up your build we had to do it. Play protoss and try to defend a 6 pool with your ideas. you'll fall behind in tech/pylons especially if you walled your rampimo best way to counter a 6 pool is to skip gas, get second gateway and mass zealots. getting a forge sets you way behind and is auto lose in some cases ._> Considering that's the opposite of what he just advocated, I don't see how this response is even valid. Anyway, here are some mid-master replays on 6pool vs 12 forge FE on shakuras plateau: http://drop.sc/40746 --> 12 forge, walled with cannon, easy win http://drop.sc/40747 --> 12 forge, lings didn't focus the forward forge, loss (should have been an easy win) http://drop.sc/40748 --> 12 forge (this is the standard wall in my opinion), easy win http://drop.sc/40749 --> 12 forge L-wall, lings didn't focus side pylons, loss (should have been easy win) http://drop.sc/40750 --> 12 forge L-wall, easy win Essentially, all five of these games should have been easy wins, of which three actually were. This is a 12 forge that goes down blindly in the cases when he doesn't scout me first, with full probe cutting once he scouts the 6 pool. My build order each time was 6 pool, 10 lings, double extractor trick into 4 more lings, scout on 1:39-1:42 (specific to this map). The wall fails (or should have failed) in every one of these games. I still believe there are no FFE wall placements that will sustain against a well-executed 6 pool on this map. The counter has and will continue to be simply making a pylon and cannon in your mineral line. If you watch closely though, especially in game 5, there are some things a protoss could probably do to survive this with minimal probe losses with very clever backup pylon placement and partial walling with probes/etc. But all of this is so much more difficult to execute than simply placing a pylon in your mineral line followed by a cannon. If you FFE on this map, scout a 6 pool, and then try to wall instead of pylon/cannoning your mineral line, expect to die. edit: thought it was worth adding this here... I've played 15 games over the past year where I've 6 pooled Shakuras Plateau ZvP vs FFE where protoss attempts to wall (from platinum to GM range): 12 wins, 3 loss 6 times protoss successfully completed a wall 3 times I don't focus fire the correct building and lost the game because of it. Why don't you wall-off with a forge + 2 gates rather than forge + gate + 2 pylons? Am I missing something here?
Better yet, why not simply pull ~6 probes and hold position with them in the gap the destroyed building leaves? Cannon is fully operational, should easily be able to kill the lings before they manually focus down the probes. You can then re-wall, throw down a Nexus, and be way ahead.
On the other hand, putting a Cannon in your mineral line leaves you way behind on tech, and a Zerg with a Queen out catches up in worker count very quickly.
On TDA, I kind of think it's better to do what Oz did against Curious in Code A finals tonight. That is, build your pylon and Forge in your main choke, then a second pylon at the natural choke, and two cannons there before a Nexus. Since TDA has no ramp, trying to 1 base there is nearly suicidal, so there's really no alternative.
|
Tasteless and Artosis put it best. Six pool seems too good on "forge" maps "(Tal'darim, belshir, etc). Maps that are so big or so open that anything other than FFE can lead to you easily getting out macro'd because you can never safely pressure zerg(on one base). Against FFE 6 leaves you atleast even with protoss because of the precautions that are taken once scouted even if no probes die.
|
On October 11 2011 07:12 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 06:52 Darth Caedus wrote:
Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.
The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.
You are only missing one piece in your wall - the forge. You will not be THAT far behind if you just make another gateway instead, which you will need later on anyway. A lot of builds require or include a second gateway regardless (Kiwikaki's build for example). Also if it is just a roach ling pressure (not an all in) then it doesn't come until later. Again, yes, you make a small (IMO) sacrifice for safety. You can't have everything.
Umm that's actually a pretty big sacrifice for safety... you can sac the forge and pylon and be pretty close to even.
You have one huge hole in your analysis. If you put the first pylon at your main, you DO NOT have a pylon at your front until way later (most FFE builds get a late 2nd pylon). So if facing an 11 overpool or a 13 pool with the first four lings sent to your base... your'e stuck. You essentially can't place that second pylon because his lings are outside. They can either go into your base and cause havoc or just prevent you from walling off or putting down your nexus.
|
On October 11 2011 09:23 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 07:12 eugalp wrote:On October 11 2011 06:52 Darth Caedus wrote:
Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.
The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.
You are only missing one piece in your wall - the forge. You will not be THAT far behind if you just make another gateway instead, which you will need later on anyway. A lot of builds require or include a second gateway regardless (Kiwikaki's build for example). Also if it is just a roach ling pressure (not an all in) then it doesn't come until later. Again, yes, you make a small (IMO) sacrifice for safety. You can't have everything. Umm that's actually a pretty big sacrifice for safety... you can sac the forge and pylon and be pretty close to even. You have one huge hole in your analysis. If you put the first pylon at your main, you DO NOT have a pylon at your front until way later (most FFE builds get a late 2nd pylon). So if facing an 11 overpool or a 13 pool with the first four lings sent to your base... your'e stuck. You essentially can't place that second pylon because his lings are outside. They can either go into your base and cause havoc or just prevent you from walling off or putting down your nexus.
I did mention that an early (but not 6) pool will have an advantage because they will be able to deny your exp. Testing needs to be done to see which pools exactly will be able to stop the expand. I strongly suspect that 13 pool will be too late, especially on big maps like TDA. You may need an 11 pool or earlier. But then you are cutting workers.
Anyway, those pool timings are not exactly common. The problem is that being only "pretty close to even" vs a build like a 6 pool that makes a HUGE sacrifice in economy is not where you want to be.
|
i have a question for anyone who's willing to answer it. If its 6 pool vs. 13/15 forge and I get the cannon up in my mineral line, what is the economical next step? It seems i'm way behind if I put down 2 cannons, and if I keep to 1, the ling prevent me from getting either of my gasses until i can get enough zealots up (then he can switch to some type of tech that necessitates sentries for defense such as baneling/roach). If he continually commits to ling pressure, should i go pylon--> cannon in mineral line --> 2 gateways --> chrono double zealot, add core --> double gas when zealots pop?
I am having a lot of issues coming out even or ahead after surviving the initial rush.
Does anyone know the standard gas timings after the cannon is in the mineral line so that I can be safe against continual pressure while not falling behind on tech/economy?
Banelings as a followup I'm finding very difficult to respond to as well, especially if he doesn't show all his lings and I'm deceived into believing that he is droning up/teching behind the 6 pool, i have no way to scout without running my zealots out into the open where the lings can surround.
I'm totally dumbfounded by the 6 pool when i FFE; wish someone would make a guide on standard defense of this cheese.
|
a well executed 6 pool on maps that suit it, let Zerg play quite a good macro game if you don't deny his ways to transtion.
your first reaction to a 6 pool (after doing everything to defend it) is to hide your scouting probe well enough to scout a expansion, reinforcement, and drone count.
This information is important to decide what you need to do.
What is important for me was aways keep the economic lead on your side, meaning.
Build a second canon if needed, but your free to boost probes
Just make sure that you keep the economic lead that is essential to keep the pressure on the Zerg side after doing the all-in.
If he goes for an expansion you should be safe anyway, if he want to stay all-in by transitioning into another all-in, feel free to add additional structures keep you alive.
(if your opponent doesn't expect it you might try to counter canon rush him)
also don't forget, you can afford to trade 1:1 ressource wise against the zerg that is all-in because you have the economic lead. This means if you trade those zealots efficiently (minimum 1:1 ressource wise), he has to make a decision ultimately to reinforce or back out, which will work out for you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
