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Hello teamliquid, I am Nyter, about 700 points EU Masters Protoss, and I have a problem.
90% of the people I faced on the ladder last week were zergs. 9 out of 10.
Out of 20 people, 1 terran, 1 protoss, 18 zergs.
My worst matchup is PvZ, but that would be ok because I would have plenty of opportunities to practice this matchup. Except that this is not the case, because of those 90% of zergs, about 90% of that does an all-in.
This means out of every 20 games, 18 are zergs, and 16 of those zergs are doing all-ins.
I usually open forge fast expand, without pylon block and these are the all-ins i face REGULARY on the ladder:
7 pool all-in (all drones pulled)
10 pool with about 10-12 zerglings
Roach-ling 2 base all-in @ 5 minutes
Nydus all-in
Baneling bust
The list goes on.
Before making comments about: U should just scout it, l2p noob etc, that is another problem: scouting.
I ALWAYS 9 pylon scout. I usually scout clockwise, but sometimes counter-clockwise depending on the map. Every map I play on is a 4 player map. (I veto'd xel'naga, but that is for another time.)
So when my probe arrives at the last scouting position, I see the lings already running to my base. At this point I cancel all probes in production, quickly finish my block and build a cannon but it's too late, the lings break my wall and it's GG.
So I got mad. No I usually don't flame at the zergs (I usually just rage-quit after I lose to 6pool), so I decided to 6 pool myself.
Note, I haven't played zerg since season 1, so I have no idea about build orders (beside, 6 pool, obviously) or mechanics.
Here are the results:
http://replayfu.com/r/4K1qDg
http://www.mediafire.com/?z4z6hsh94bcpc65
http://www.mediafire.com/?b1ubyomazx318y5
My point being: Is 6 or 7 pool (against protoss) overpowerd, because there is a luck factor involved in scouting it first? What is a pro's opinion about this?
I remember the Dreamhack final, Huk vs Moon. Huk holds the 6 pool because he scouted it first. What if he scouted clockwise? Would he still hold?
Thanks for reading.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.
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dam. this means if u make ur wall and cannon faster you'll win 80% of ur games without even trying! lucky you
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I personally think it's far too strong, especially on the likes of Terminus or TDA. As stated at the GSL, it's a good economic opening, after the first 6 lings you can drone as hard as you like because it's almost guaranteed to do economic damage unless the Protoss is going for a one-base play.
There's no way I can think of to nerf it though, just double scout on big maps and hopefully you'll do okay.
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Defending a 6 pool/7pool isn't normally that hard to pull off. pay attention to your scouting probe on the minimap looking for zerglings. Also check for that second overlord which wont be over the natural yet. From there depending on how quickly i scouted it I will place down a forge and a pylon to fully wall of. (i sometimes cancel it when my Zeal comes outs. Basically keep chronoing zealots out and defend the pylon powering your gateway at all costs. remember that a 6 pool has no queen and only 6-8 zerglings rallied every 40 seconds. You can lose up to 5 probes and still be ahead due to zerg having only 6-7 and no expansion.
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On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.
On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.
Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)
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Don't be so predictable or properly scout before expanding. Going Nexus first without making sure I'm expanding is terrible.
I've won all my PvZs because they all greedily FFE without properly scouting. All I have to do is pretend I'm expanding or get lings out and kill your probe while moving my drone out to make it look like I'm expanding and some of you go Nexus first.
Scout properly and don't cut corners. Make sure I actually expanded (I baneling bust when I see lazy scouting), make sure to scout the close positions first as well (I 8-pool on FFE).
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In maps like Taldarim if you don't find your opponent at first position you should 13or14 forge and use that same probe to scout the third and last position as your first probe goes to the second spot 
If you scout 6 pool with any probe you have more than enough time to build a pylon close to your nexus. Then you have to micro your probes as the cannon goes up in your mineral line.
Just a small tip. You lose 1 probe that could be mining to play safe.
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On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)
Is this a forge + 2gate wall or 2 pylon + forge + gate wall?
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im grandmaster protoss myself and i think 6pool is best cheese ingame. Its like 33% or 66% autowin in 4player maps where protoss doesnt forge fastexpand.
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Wow, Plexa that is good advice, I'll keep that in mind for my own games, thank you. That being said, the 6-pool is the essence of a strategy not being overpowered imo. It is potent for sure, but there is a reason why you don't see it too often in high level tournaments. If you are playing to win consistently 6-pool will not get you too far.
Of course you might not do too badly (go Action Jesus go)
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90% of the time I pull statistics out of my as only 90% of them are wrong, but the 90% of those other 10% are actually kind of close.
User was warned for this post
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On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.
Oh sorry, I wasn't clear, I always do my FFE as the following:
13 forge
(pool before hatch):
15 cannon
16 gate
16 pylon
17 nexus
or
13 forge
(hatch before pool)
15 nexus
15 gate
16 cannon
16 pylon
So I never do a blind nexus first, that would be stupid. My point being is that me (and a lot of toss) are losing to 6 pools (and other cheesy all-ins) when going forge - cannon - gate with a full block, and just losing because you placed those buildings too late (because u scouted it last.)
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On September 28 2011 16:21 Nyter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. Oh sorry, I wasn't clear, I always do my FFE as the following: 13 forge (pool before hatch): 15 cannon 16 gate 16 pylon 17 nexus or 13 forge (hatch before pool) 15 nexus 15 gate 16 cannon 16 pylon So I never do a blind nexus first, that would be stupid. My point being is that me (and a lot of toss) are losing to 6 pools (and other cheesy all-ins) when going forge - cannon - gate with a full block, and just losing because you placed those buildings too late (because u scouted it last.)
The first gives you a very late nexus, personally I'd go forge nexus cannon gate if it was a standard pool timing. I suppose that's personal preference though.
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I'm a zerg, and I don't 6 pool or anything like that because I thought that doing forge first is an auto-loss for the Zerg..
Well that's all the games I've played/watched where there is a 6 pool making the pylon at your mineral line and make a cannon.. surround it with probes when you see the zerglings come and use the probes and the cannon(you can add another one too if you don't feel safe) until you get gate up etc.
I don't get how you die to 6/7 pools when you're FFEing it's the easiest way to stop a 6 pool. I've never seen someone able to do the full block on Shak Plat with a decent 6 pool.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/
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On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/
You don't have an advantage in that situation though, it's pretty much dead even, and if you made any mistakes, or you scout 2nd position, or you pylon/cannon in the main are just a little late... You lose. Assuming you it all perfect, you end up even-ahead 2-4 workers depending on how many lings he made after the first 6 or so...
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If you 13 forge and double scout there's no way a 6pool should kill you outright because you'll always have enough time to get a pylon + cannon up in your main by the time it arrives.
That said, I do find it quite frustrating to play against because it seems to be able to transition out of it so well if you are good (just like in the July v Naniwa AoL game). Although I think the Toss is still at a small eco advantage after the pylon/forge loss, I just hate how a 6pool can turn into such a long macro game afterwards lol =p
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On September 28 2011 16:36 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive. Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool) You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/ You don't have an advantage in that situation though, it's pretty much dead even, and if you made any mistakes, or you scout 2nd position, or you pylon/cannon in the main are just a little late... You lose. Assuming you it all perfect, you end up even-ahead 2-4 workers depending on how many lings he made after the first 6 or so...
Not really. You should always send 2 probes(9 pylon scout and 13 forge scout) in taldarim altar to see if there is early pool or cannonrush hatch first. And you shouldnt lose many probes if any. Then you have like 17 probes to ~10 drones
And if you see 7pool or later its important to just block the choke or you get behind.
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Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
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EPT
