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[D] Is 6 pool overpowerd? - Page 2

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Hrpggtru
Profile Joined June 2011
25 Posts
September 28 2011 07:47 GMT
#21
It's what happens when you go for a FFE, you have the chance to get punished. Just like how a zerg can auto lose to an 11/11 if they spawn close positions and hatch first.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Nyter
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands22 Posts
September 28 2011 07:51 GMT
#22
Just give zealots same speed as lings and make them spawn in 4s and i'd 6gate every game

User was warned for this post
DreamHuK <3
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
September 28 2011 07:52 GMT
#23
On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.

On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.

Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)
You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/



This!!!!!!!!!

Also some points I want to add:
-) on 4player maps zerg has the same problem (late scouting)
-) FFE against hatch first is the same principle as 6pool vs Nexus first (with the difference that 6pool is an allin, Canonrush an option you get without making any sacrifices)
-) if you have trouble with 6pools with a Forge opening (though it is beatable, but does only transition into a lead for protoss, not into an autowin if both players play it well) and there are as many 6pools around as you said --> Gateway expand
-) 5min 2base roach/ling??? WTF! That's not possible... that's a 1base roach/ling allin you're talking about! (maybe with hatchcancel)
ZorBa.G
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia279 Posts
September 28 2011 07:57 GMT
#24
It's overpowered becuase it's completely up to chance wether if you scout it or not. I don't think the 6-pool is OP, I would prefer to say it's the maps which make it OP.

To be quiet honest, the only part of SC2 I hate is the early game because of cheeses and builds like this. But keep in mind, I'm not blaming the all-ins and cheeses... I'm blaming the maps which let this happen too easily.

Honestly, who in this world wants to play 30 games on ladder only to come up against cheese everytime? You never learn much at all. I would rather play 30 macro games, only because it's a much better way to futher game knowledge/experience. I'm actually resorting to just playing in-house and tournies only. For now, screw ladder.

I don't mind 4 player maps. But i think 4 player maps with only 2 spawn positions would fix alot of this. Then people can clearly say if you lost to cheese, it's because you didn't scout well enough.
mazqo
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland368 Posts
September 28 2011 07:57 GMT
#25
Seriously dudes read this text: Forge fast expanding you shouldnt lose to 6pool. Just send 2 scouts and build pylon next to your mineral line if you scout 6pool
Nyter
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands22 Posts
September 28 2011 07:59 GMT
#26
On September 28 2011 16:57 ZorBa.G wrote:
It's overpowered becuase it's completely up to chance wether if you scout it or not. I don't think the 6-pool is OP, I would prefer to say it's the maps which make it OP.

To be quiet honest, the only part of SC2 I hate is the early game because of cheeses and builds like this. But keep in mind, I'm not blaming the all-ins and cheeses... I'm blaming the maps which let this happen too easily.

Honestly, who in this world wants to play 30 games on ladder only to come up against cheese everytime? You never learn much at all. I would rather play 30 macro games, only because it's a much better way to futher game knowledge/experience. I'm actually resorting to just playing in-house and tournies only. For now, screw ladder.

I don't mind 4 player maps. But i think 4 player maps with only 2 spawn positions would fix alot of this. Then people can clearly say if you lost to cheese, it's because you didn't scout well enough.


You bring a good idea. More maps with a shakuras plateau-like idea, limiting some spawn locations to 1 or 2 will make cheesing more effective (because you dont have to scout/scout less) but this is also an advantage for the defender.
For now i'd just double scout @ 9 when i FFE ._.
DreamHuK <3
Zaphid
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1860 Posts
September 28 2011 08:15 GMT
#27
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.

On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.

Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)

I'm pretty sure I held off 6pools on Shakuras by walling off and then adding cannon at the natural, they usually broke 1 gateway just as the cannon finished.

But yeah, basically don't build nexus until you see pool or hatch timing, nuff said.
I will never ever play Mech against Protoss. - MVP
mazqo
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland368 Posts
September 28 2011 08:17 GMT
#28
On September 28 2011 17:15 Zaphid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.

On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.

Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)

I'm pretty sure I held off 6pools on Shakuras by walling off and then adding cannon at the natural, they usually broke 1 gateway just as the cannon finished.

But yeah, basically don't build nexus until you see pool or hatch timing, nuff said.

Im pretty sure your opponent didnt execute 6pool well, since its not possible to wall off and hold 6pool, trust me, i have tried many times.
Zaphid
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1860 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-28 08:20:24
September 28 2011 08:19 GMT
#29
On September 28 2011 17:17 mazqo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 17:15 Zaphid wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.

On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.

Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)

I'm pretty sure I held off 6pools on Shakuras by walling off and then adding cannon at the natural, they usually broke 1 gateway just as the cannon finished.

But yeah, basically don't build nexus until you see pool or hatch timing, nuff said.

Im pretty sure your opponent didnt execute 6pool well, since its not possible to wall off and hold 6pool, trust me, i have tried many times.

I'd assume master level zergs can do that properly, but whatever :D Yeah, but you are probably right, they can block the buildings with drone.
I will never ever play Mech against Protoss. - MVP
OptimusYale
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)1005 Posts
September 28 2011 08:25 GMT
#30
Losing to 6pool is embarassing, I thought by now people would know how to defend.

As a Zerg I never win with 6 pool. If you feel that all zergs cheese, send a scout out earlier, see what they're up to....
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
September 28 2011 08:28 GMT
#31
i got grandmaster by only 6pooling : /
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
mazqo
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland368 Posts
September 28 2011 08:28 GMT
#32
On September 28 2011 17:19 Zaphid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 17:17 mazqo wrote:
On September 28 2011 17:15 Zaphid wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.

On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.

Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)

I'm pretty sure I held off 6pools on Shakuras by walling off and then adding cannon at the natural, they usually broke 1 gateway just as the cannon finished.

But yeah, basically don't build nexus until you see pool or hatch timing, nuff said.

Im pretty sure your opponent didnt execute 6pool well, since its not possible to wall off and hold 6pool, trust me, i have tried many times.

I'd assume master level zergs can do that properly, but whatever :D Yeah, but you are probably right, they can block the buildings with drone.

No, building at the wall will just get destroyed before your cannon is ready, and im 100% sure of this.
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
September 28 2011 08:32 GMT
#33
just make a defensive pylon behind the mineralline and make a cannon right in ur minerals. ull lose ur pylon and ur foge in the front but ur eco is far far ahead almost unloseable.
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
mizU
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States12125 Posts
September 28 2011 08:33 GMT
#34
People still don't know how to defend a 6 pool after FFE...
If you throw down a pylon at 15 supply, you should be fine. You will lose your forge and pylon, but still be ahead economically. Throw down a gateway and core after in range of your cannon. Play normally after this. You can usually sneak a probe into their base too to scout, since fast speed is impossible.
if happy ever afters did exist <3 @watamizu_
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
September 28 2011 08:36 GMT
#35
On September 28 2011 16:59 Nyter wrote:

You bring a good idea. More maps with a shakuras plateau-like idea, limiting some spawn locations to 1 or 2 will make cheesing more effective (because you dont have to scout/scout less) but this is also an advantage for the defender.
For now i'd just double scout @ 9 when i FFE ._.


the funny thing is i turned shakuras off beacuse its unwinable against protoss when u open up with 6pool :D
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
FlaminGinjaNinja
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom879 Posts
September 28 2011 08:42 GMT
#36
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?


So it would seem.

If you go for a quick expo like a nexus first or FFE of course you are going to be at risk from an early pool from Zerg. I could say the same thing about me going 15 hatch against a protoss going 2 gate.

6 pool is not overpowered, especially on a 4 player map. Yes you might not be expecting it but it's still a huge risk for the zerg because if you hold it off, even with some loses, you are almost certain to be ahead. Probe micro and either 1 zealot or a cannon will hold 6 pool no problems but of course you have to get the zealot\cannon before you put don the nexus otherwise it wont get out in time
GinjaNinja.661 EU I'd like to thank my sh*t keyyboard for always messing up my 'Y's
Quochobao
Profile Joined October 2010
United States350 Posts
September 28 2011 08:48 GMT
#37
On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.

On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.

Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)
You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/


What if the zerg bypasses the forge and pylon at ramp, run directly into the mineral line to attack probe and the warping pylon/canon? Toss will either lose probes or suffer lost mining time then.

As soon as toss' canon is up, zerg can go back to ramp and kill the forge.

(This is even mentioned in Liquidpedia's 6 pool section lmfao)
Best or nothing.
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-28 08:49:50
September 28 2011 08:49 GMT
#38
On September 28 2011 17:48 Quochobao wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 16:33 Plexa wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:
On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus.

On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.

Other maps, just scout on 9, and scout at 12 or 13 forge opposite way as initial probe... however if you scout first, if 6 pool, defend, if not, nexus first (unless other sort of fast pool)
You don't try to wall off though, you pylon in main and add cannon in your mineral line then use your econ advantage to get further ahead =/


What if the zerg bypasses the forge and pylon at ramp, run directly into the mineral line to attack probe and the warping pylon/canon? Toss will either lose probes or suffer lost mining time then.

As soon as toss' canon is up, zerg can go back to ramp and kill the forge.

(This is even mentioned in Liquidpedia's 6 pool section lmfao)

What about it? At least you can defend your cannon with good micro. Losing mining time is better than losing the game.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Twelve12
Profile Joined November 2010
Australia268 Posts
September 28 2011 08:49 GMT
#39
going hatch first against protoss is often an auto loss to someone who uses cannons correctly, doing an econ build has its risks and rewards. I think if you fast expand every game it's normal that you will sometimes lose games to someone doing something like a 6-pool.

It's just the risk you take for the econ advantage, just like the 6 pooling player is taking a risk with his build to sacrifice econ for a chance to kill you.
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
September 28 2011 08:51 GMT
#40
well he has 6 lings you still should be able to kill them with probes since the cannon makes him comit fast so no reinforcements can join the battle. if its just a 6 ling rush zerg is behind like 100% anyways. if zergs 6pool they should end the game in the first 5 minutes
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
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