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On September 29 2011 03:01 quillian wrote:Wow, can you provide replay of that? I'd love to use it in my team games! =D
sorry my bad, i ment either 1 base roach-ling around 6 minutes, or 2 base between 8-9 minutes.
It seems 5 minutes because you dont have a lot of units when u FFE that early ;P
(I can hold that crap now tho, just scout + lots of cannons)
as for the 6pool, i just double scout and can usually finish my FFE walloff with a cannon. If i cant, pylon + cannon in mineral line will do
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I'm sorry but the whole premise of this debate is wrong and logically flawed. This is equivalent to asking "is 14 gas/pool overpowered because I can't make nothing but probes until 20 food before building a gateway". If your build is vulnerable to a late-scouted six pool it is too greedy and you need to live with the consequences or solve the problem some either way (i.e. scout earlier). Protoss doesn't have a "right" to a particular build. This would be like a zerg player saying placement of cannons should be limited to within range of a Nexus because zerg has a "right" to hatch first. Gas/pool is more or less standard in zvp because of cannon rushing. If you need to be less greedy to beat a six pool then just get over it.
Unreal.
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On September 28 2011 23:44 jirpy wrote:
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg?
The issue isn't building an ovie before pool, it's mineral cost.
Supply depot + barracks = 250 minerals
Pylon + gateway = 250 minerals
Drone + spawning pool = 250 minerals
Now, one of the reasons the 6 pool is a better cheese than just rushing for the fastest possible gateway or rax is that you don't actually need to mine an extra 50 minerals to cover the cost of the drone, since you start with 6 of them. So really, if you're going to cheese, the spawning pool only costs 200 minerals. If you're going to keep building drones and play a macro game, it's 250 like all the other initial buildings.
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On September 29 2011 01:53 Complete wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:50 tehemperorer wrote:On September 29 2011 01:49 Complete wrote:On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build. You're naive if you think it's that simple. And you're bad if you think it's not. Tell me master, what is the secret to a simple 6 pool defense with a 13 gateway build on a 4 player map where you scout zerg last?
I literally told you in the post of mine you flamed. Pull 8 probes, chrono your zealot. Hold position a probe at your wallin. Even if you scout him last, you will scout him before the lings are at your base, and even if you somehow don't, it doesn't take any foresight to pull 8 probes.
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Yeah well you do the fastest expand possible, while he does the fastest rush possible... There would be a serious gap in skill if you win.
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Yup 6 pool is overpowered.
I'll be sure to drop Nestea a line telling him to 6p all his ZvPs.
But seriously, seriously? You can't expect to FFE with nexus first and NOT lose to 6 pool. That's not how it works at all. You forge on 13, and always make your second pylon in a position where you can put a cannon in your mineral line for 6p. Then you are ahead for a while, and Zerg tries to break even with fast queen and expo.
I would suggest chronoing out 3 zealots after you hold it off while re making your forge, then nexus, to scout the follow up (Zerg could be baneling busting instead of expanding) and to force more lings so you can stay even more ahead.
6p is auto win against nexus first greedy tosses, in the same way that 11/11 rax is auto win against 15h/16p greedy Zergs.
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6 pool isn't overpowered in the sense that most people think. The current "problem" with 6 pool comes out of the fact that Blizzard is attempting to balance for the highest skilled players.
The problem is 6 pool is an autowin if not scouted, but unlike top levels of play, it's not an autoloss if it is. A protoss player who scouts 6 pool and attempts to defend with a chrono'd zealot + probes can still easily lose the game if he micros badly. This fact is amplified by the fact that the 6 pooler likely 6 pools in most games and has tons and tons of practice doing the 6 pool, while the defending player has far less practice defending it. So even though the defender has the theoretical advantage, the 6 pooler has a lot more practice to come out ahead anyways.
Likewise, pylon + cannon in minerals doesn't autowin you the game against a competent 6 pooler. Do you know how to stutter step a zealot to massacre slow lings without getting surrounded and losing it? If you don't, he will still easily win as those 6-8 lings alone can now prevent you from getting any gas until you have 2 zealots out. You have to know the right time to start the assimilator that you can have the zealot out and the lings chased off before they can tear it down. Players not knowing stuff like this tips the balance in the cheesers' favor. Remember, he only needs to win 51% of his games to advance.
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On September 29 2011 00:23 peppilepew wrote:
i honestly dont know how so many can lose to a 6 pool, its honestly quiet simple to hold if you think there might be a chance of a 6 pool and still go nexus first then imho u deserve to lose, thats my 2 cents,
If you lose to it going forge first its mis micro on your part, as you shuld be able to buy time foryourself with probes till your cannons are up
+1
User was warned for this post
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lotta protoss QQ in here, as a zerg player i never, ever 6 pool.
it's actually a bad build that rely's on some serious blunders by the protoss player before you even come close to winning with it.
heres what i know watching the hundreds of GSL, MLG, GSTL, and dreamhack tourny's.
if you FFE,
scout on 9
if you see him first position and he's doing a standard pool or hatch first opening you can nexus first.
if you dont scout him you go Forge then nexus, to be safe and allow cannons to be put down in time.
if you scout second position and he's not there, immediately send a probe to your wall ready to throw down some emergency buildings.
if you scout him last and he's playing standard your perfectly safe.
when you scout him last position and he's 6 pool'd cancel the nexus, sack your wall pylon and forge and get a cannon up in your mineral line.
also get a gateway up near your main nexus dont try to get one from your wall, thats just silly.
you should be able to do this cause you'll have a pylon nearby.
even having to cancel your nexus and loosing a pylon AND a forge you'll still be able to hold with maybe loosing one probe, maybe not even loosing one.
now lets do the tally.
the economic damage of a 6 pool to a zerg player is pretty dam substantial.
100 from cancelled nexus, 100 from your pylon, the 150 from your forge and what the 30 ish MAYBE (if you scout it late) from your gateway on the wall cancel and lets add in one probe as well.
so your looking at a nice 400 minerals lost.
you come out ahead.
simple as that.
a much bigger theat then the 6 pool is the proxy hatch in your main. similar to spanishiwa, catz ect. but if you scout thoroughly you'll be fine.
any PROtoss players wanna correct me on this?
i am but a humble zerg but this is the way i see people hold this build easily every day.
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I watched huk hold a ffe vs 6pool and i haven't lost since. get the forge and cannon down and then whatever other buildings you can, maybe even around the cannon sometimes, and then pull 90% of probes and attack the lings while the cannon finishes. don't let them into your base or away from the cannon. when probes get hurt pull the weak one to the back by clicking minerals and then cycle through to attack again. when cannon finishes just expand or do w/e and win. i saved a replay, pm me if you really want to see 
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Just stopping by to comment on your point on scouting.
A 6 pool is about half as effective if the Zerglings don't find your base almost immediately. If you're being successfully six pool'd and yet are unable to scout it then something is amiss. Either the Zergs you're facing are extremely lucky in where they send their Lings, or you're missing something key like an early drone scout.
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Uh, you don't need to send 2 probes or anything these guys are saying.
Build a pylon in your mineral line. make 1 or 2 cannons accordingly. Juggle lings with probes til cannons finish. Win? I've never lost to a 6 pool while FEing. 6 pooling is actually a terrible build and every good zerg knows it. 10 pool is much better imo.
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(P master 850 pts)
Yea I see a shitload of 6 pools on the ladder recently, very hard to stop.
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On September 30 2011 00:16 Legion710 wrote:
Uh, you don't need to send 2 probes or anything these guys are saying.
Build a pylon in your mineral line. make 1 or 2 cannons accordingly. Juggle lings with probes til cannons finish. Win? I've never lost to a 6 pool while FEing. 6 pooling is actually a terrible build and every good zerg knows it. 10 pool is much better imo.
Right now on ladder at least in my MMR area, if you're facing Zerg as Protoss on a 4-player map, (three spots to scout) at least half the Zergs will open on 6, 7, or 8 pool.
I'd say close to 4/5 Zergs do not even expand anymore. It's 6,7,8 pool, 1 base baneling bust, 1 base roach, 1 base nydus, or ~6 drones at the expo and then try to break you with roach/ling spam from both hatcheries. The "standard" 14 pool opening is becoming virtually nonexistent, Zergs that want to macro are generally opening on 11 overpool, 18 hatch.
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6 pool is a fairly terrible build so long as the protoss isn't going nexus before forge. I have occasionally used 6 lings off an 11 pool to troll the toss FFE, if it does enough damage initially I've occasionally been able to just rally lings and win - if not (which is usually the case) I'll just use my super early queen to spam drones and catch up economically.
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So... Early aggression is strong against super early expansions?
Who would have thought.
Yeah 6 Pool is strong against Forge FE, hell its a BO win against Nexus first but its up to you to scout.
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That's like saying that cannon rush is Overpowered cause you lose if you 15 hatch and doesent scout it fast.
2gate proxy outside the main is also OP if you hatch first, two 11 rax is also strong if you hatch first and doesent scout it fast.
Something must be wrong, oh wait. You should be able to get punished if you are trying to be greedy.
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On September 29 2011 17:04 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 01:53 Complete wrote:On September 29 2011 01:50 tehemperorer wrote:On September 29 2011 01:49 Complete wrote:On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build. You're naive if you think it's that simple. And you're bad if you think it's not. Tell me master, what is the secret to a simple 6 pool defense with a 13 gateway build on a 4 player map where you scout zerg last? I literally told you in the post of mine you flamed. Pull 8 probes, chrono your zealot. Hold position a probe at your wallin. Even if you scout him last, you will scout him before the lings are at your base, and even if you somehow don't, it doesn't take any foresight to pull 8 probes.
-8 probes can't take 6 lings
-zealot isn't out before lings are in your base
-pylon powering your gate is dead before zealot finishes
I'm not saying it's overpowered, but you're certainly not offering a 'simple solution'.
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On September 30 2011 01:58 Complete wrote:
-8 probes can't take 6 lings
-zealot isn't out before lings are in your base
-pylon powering your gate is dead before zealot finishes
I'm not saying it's overpowered, but you're certainly not offering a 'simple solution'.
I'm not an expert at this but i believe you're supposed to "dance" with those 8 probes: you threaten to attack the lings every time he goes for the pylon, and pull back if he turns to engage the probes, in this way you can delay damage to the pylon and get a zealot out at which point you can fight them.
edit: or start building a 2nd pylon if for some reason you can't save the first in time
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Every GSL PvZ I've seen with a 6pool involves the P forgetting about the wall-off (and expo) and putting a cannon in his mineral line. Maybe trying to hold the expo is just too greedy against a 6 pool?
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EPT
