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[D] Is 6 pool overpowerd? - Page 7

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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TaurinE
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada35 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 17:37:44
September 29 2011 17:37 GMT
#121
Probes are actually more powerful than zerglings in my experience, GM every region here. So what you do is if you see the initial 6 lings get through your wall, all you have to do is pull 2 probes and they should handle it pretty well. Just remember to keep a probe : zergling ratio of 1:3
Blazinghand *
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States25563 Posts
September 29 2011 17:41 GMT
#122
On September 30 2011 02:37 TaurinE wrote:
Probes are actually more powerful than zerglings in my experience, GM every region here. So what you do is if you see the initial 6 lings get through your wall, all you have to do is pull 2 probes and they should handle it pretty well. Just remember to keep a probe : zergling ratio of 1:3


This is literally not correct. Zerglings are faster than probes, and attack more quickly, with only negligibly fewer hit points. You definitely need to pull more probes than this to fight zerglings directly.
When you stare into the iCCup, the iCCup stares back.
TL+ Member
Makura
Profile Joined December 2010
United States317 Posts
September 29 2011 17:45 GMT
#123
On September 30 2011 02:37 TaurinE wrote:
Probes are actually more powerful than zerglings in my experience, GM every region here. So what you do is if you see the initial 6 lings get through your wall, all you have to do is pull 2 probes and they should handle it pretty well. Just remember to keep a probe : zergling ratio of 1:3


... do you mean 2 probes for every ling?

Regardless yes all races can hold 6 pool with the gatherers alone, just need to be micro'd well

An excellent example of this is Naniwa vs July in AOL
SHOW THEM WHAT THE CATFISH COMBO IS ALL ABOUT!
TaurinE
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada35 Posts
September 29 2011 17:58 GMT
#124
Zerglings are actually unable to use the attack command when they are on the ramp post 1.4 so if you hold position 2 probes at the top of it with your buildings for a wall off the lings can't kill them.
sleep
Profile Joined August 2010
United States47 Posts
September 29 2011 18:09 GMT
#125
On September 30 2011 02:37 TaurinE wrote:
Probes are actually more powerful than zerglings in my experience, GM every region here. So what you do is if you see the initial 6 lings get through your wall, all you have to do is pull 2 probes and they should handle it pretty well. Just remember to keep a probe : zergling ratio of 1:3

On September 30 2011 02:58 TaurinE wrote:
Zerglings are actually unable to use the attack command when they are on the ramp post 1.4 so if you hold position 2 probes at the top of it with your buildings for a wall off the lings can't kill them.

yous trollin
nath
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1788 Posts
September 29 2011 18:13 GMT
#126
On September 29 2011 01:50 tehemperorer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 29 2011 01:49 Complete wrote:
On September 29 2011 01:45 NorthernIrelandGlob wrote:
This has been talked to death. HuK held it without scouting it, and it's common knowledge and searchable taht with 6 - 8 probes and chronoing your zealot, it's an easy win. Sure, you might lose to it from time to time on the ladder, but that's down to sloppy play, not an overpowered build.


You're naive if you think it's that simple.

And you're bad if you think it's not.

this entire thread is about 6pool vs FFE not vs gateway first...in that case its easy wall off + chrono zlot + pull probe = win.
Founder of Flow Enterprises, LLC http://flow-enterprises.com/
blagoonga123
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States2068 Posts
September 29 2011 18:23 GMT
#127
About the idea of probe zergling dancing:

Can't the zerg just surround your pylon and then hold position? if your probes get near they'll be attacked automatically, otherwise they'll immediately switch back to the pylon.

oh shit did i just make 6 pool overpowered?
FOOL! Pain is my friend! Now let me introduce you to it!
wideye
Profile Joined June 2010
United States209 Posts
September 29 2011 18:27 GMT
#128
on big maps like tal'darim, if you don't find them on the first place you scout, send another probe to the would-be last base you scout with one probe. that eliminates the problem of scouting the 6 pool last.
slim pickens
xlava
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States676 Posts
September 29 2011 18:37 GMT
#129
No I don't think its op. One cannon in your mineral line is an easy defense and allows you to pull WAY ahead economically.

Sure its more powerful if you don't scout it first, just as powerful as when a zerg can't scout that a protoss is 4gating.
BadgerBadger8264
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands409 Posts
September 29 2011 19:56 GMT
#130
Can't the zerg just surround your pylon and then hold position? if your probes get near they'll be attacked automatically, otherwise they'll immediately switch back to the pylon.

If you pull enough probes (8+) you can easily pick them off one by one if they do this, you really have to attack with all your lings, in which case they can retreat.
eteran
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany83 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 20:28:50
September 29 2011 20:28 GMT
#131
On September 29 2011 06:10 TrickyGilligan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 28 2011 23:44 jirpy wrote:
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg?


The issue isn't building an ovie before pool, it's mineral cost.

Supply depot + barracks = 250 minerals
Pylon + gateway = 250 minerals
Drone + spawning pool = 250 minerals

Now, one of the reasons the 6 pool is a better cheese than just rushing for the fastest possible gateway or rax is that you don't actually need to mine an extra 50 minerals to cover the cost of the drone, since you start with 6 of them. So really, if you're going to cheese, the spawning pool only costs 200 minerals. If you're going to keep building drones and play a macro game, it's 250 like all the other initial buildings.


You cannot compare the cost of the spawning pool, a tech building, to the production facilities of the other races. The spawning pool gives you production of three production facilities instantly.

It feels a bit unfair that the Zerg is allowed to have a medium risk, high reward opener while Protoss does not have such a thing and got crippeled for any early pressure. I think the Overlord first requirement would not harm any of the matchups but would allow for better PvZ experience overall.
IreScath
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada521 Posts
September 29 2011 20:44 GMT
#132
I don't necessarily think 6pool is imba... But I do think that perhaps its a little too easy for the zerg to macro up assuming the 6pool fails..

They spoke about this on SOTG or ITG I forget which one. That many zergs are 6pooling more often as an opener and then droning slightly longer into the game. For something that used to be an all-in, I dont actually think it is anymore.

/2 cents
IreScath
BadgerBadger8264
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands409 Posts
September 29 2011 20:45 GMT
#133
It feels a bit unfair that the Zerg is allowed to have a medium risk, high reward opener while Protoss does not have such a thing and got crippeled for any early pressure. I think the Overlord first requirement would not harm any of the matchups but would allow for better PvZ experience overall.

Last time I checked Forge FE still destroys hatch first builds, but you're right, it's not comparable to 6 pool because that's a no risk high reward build
eteran
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany83 Posts
September 29 2011 20:57 GMT
#134
On September 30 2011 05:45 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
Show nested quote +
It feels a bit unfair that the Zerg is allowed to have a medium risk, high reward opener while Protoss does not have such a thing and got crippeled for any early pressure. I think the Overlord first requirement would not harm any of the matchups but would allow for better PvZ experience overall.


Last time I checked Forge FE still destroys hatch first builds, but you're right, it's not comparable to 6 pool because that's a no risk high reward build


Being able to Forge FE is highly map depended. Being able to punish a hatch first build with Cannons is aswell map and scouting luck depended. Furthermore you have to invest at least 400 minerals to denie a hatch first which does not win you the game automatically. So how exactly is FFE no risk, high reward at all?

The next big difference is that 6 pool is a gamble while FFE with cannons against hatch first is a reaction to a specific scouted ingame situation.
CuHz
Profile Joined January 2011
United States354 Posts
September 29 2011 21:00 GMT
#135
If u place a cannon by your mineral line a good zerg can snipe ur assimilators nd forge/pylon while they are droning up nd expanding, ull need two cannons. But 2=300 and thats basically behind since u lost 150forge+100 pylon + a few probes and late on warp tech bcuz no gas

1400+ toss here
NA GM protoss twitch.tv/cuhzx
BadgerBadger8264
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands409 Posts
September 29 2011 21:06 GMT
#136
Being able to Forge FE is highly map depended. Being able to punish a hatch first build with Cannons is aswell map and scouting luck depended

6 pool isnt?

Furthermore you have to invest at least 400 minerals to denie a hatch first which does not win you the game automatically. So how exactly is FFE no risk, high reward at all?

No risk because you don't commit to the cannon rush unless you get lucky scouting. Zero risk. Nada. 6 pool is a gamble because you commit to it before, cannon rush isn't

The next big difference is that 6 pool is a gamble while FFE with cannons against hatch first is a reaction to a specific scouted ingame situation.

You're right, 6 pool should be made stronger against gateway first builds so it's not such a gamble. Kind of unfair that zerg have to gamble to take down a protoss FE while protoss can do the same without taking any sort of risk whatsoever.
Zanzabarr
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada217 Posts
September 29 2011 21:22 GMT
#137
Blizzard has removed 7 rax reaper rush because of how hard it is to scout in time.. even though it was easily defendable as Protoss if they get a fast stalker.....(need supply depot before barracks) Blizzard has nerfed zealot rushes (zealot time from 33 to 38), and has reduced barracks time by 5 sec (to nerf fast marine bunker rushes).... yet they have done nothing to limit how insanely fast zergs can get lings out... often unscoutable if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. In Blizzard's mind, this should be nerfed just like the rest of the early game stuff. Terran needs suppy depot before barracks. Protoss needs pylon before gateway.... Zerg should need to make an OL before pool.
BadgerBadger8264
Profile Joined March 2011
Netherlands409 Posts
September 29 2011 21:26 GMT
#138
Blizzard has removed 7 rax reaper rush because of how hard it is to scout in time.. even though it was easily defendable as Protoss if they get a fast stalker.....(need supply depot before barracks) Blizzard has nerfed zealot rushes (zealot time from 33 to 38), and has reduced barracks time by 5 sec (to nerf fast marine bunker rushes).... yet they have done nothing to limit how insanely fast zergs can get lings out... often unscoutable if you are unlucky on a 4 player map. In Blizzard's mind, this should be nerfed just like the rest of the early game stuff. Terran needs suppy depot before barracks. Protoss needs pylon before gateway.... Zerg should need to make an OL before pool.

Yes, that's how balance works in this game. Protoss and terran were nerfed, so zerg should be nerfed as well. An eye for an eye, right?

*Facepalm*
Pheo
Profile Joined September 2010
United States13 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-29 21:30:12
September 29 2011 21:29 GMT
#139
Top master zerg here. Find a zerg friend, and practice. Play normally, and "pretend" like you scout it last. Then learn to respond. I promise you should be able to hold it every time. Again to reiterate, if it's a 4player map and you're FFEing, you have to put the forge down first if you haven't scouted them yet.
TheSubtleArt
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada2527 Posts
September 29 2011 21:36 GMT
#140
No. Just forge first if you don't scout first try
Dodge arrows
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