EPT[D] Is 6 pool overpowerd? - Page 9
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dbald27
United States49 Posts
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Zanzabarr
Canada217 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:25 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: Real pro please, not InControl. That guy loses to literally everything, lol. What's next, Husky losing to a 6 pool? Come back when there's actual evidence for imbalance or the build being impossible to stop, outside of pure speculation and crying about you losing to a build. So let me get this straight, unless they are in GSL code S, it doesn't count? Not only have I seen it there anyway, you completely miss the point again. Do you think Blizzard nerfed zealot time or 7 rax reaper because of the implications in code S? 6 pool can be unscoutable on 4 player maps... even 10 pool can be quite strong as it allows for both hard aggression of strong eco... both because of how fast a pool can be laid down with no pre-req. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
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Zanzabarr
Canada217 Posts
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Granter
Sweden64 Posts
I dont know how many times when i have played a zerg in something like desert strike only to join a shatter temple custome to be zerg by a mistake. i 7pool everytime and it's not even funny. Not lost a game with this tactic. And it have been vs diamond players. I'm sure my timing is waaaay of consider that i barely do anything correct. If i were to compare this with something like a bunker rush it's pretty retarded tbh, with a bunker rush i had to macro like crazy to keep my scv's alive to get the bunker up. aswell as getting my marines there safe aswell as building more scv's. 6pool is not compareable when i just rally them to the protoss base and wins :D | ||
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:25 Zanzabarr wrote: The reason that slightly failed 6 pools can go into long games where the zerg can win is due to the complete inability for protoss to be aggressive after defending it, which is because of the large dependence protoss has on gas and higher tech to be effective. Uhh... Hypothetical situation. 6 pool happens. Is defended without a billion casualties. Worker count is 8 for the zerg, and 12 for the protoss. What's to stop the protoss from chronoboosting out a few (2-3, depending on how well the 6 pool was defended) zealots while constantly producing probes, then expanding behind the pressure when able? Zerglings? If he's making zerglings, he's not making drones, and he really, really needs to make drones. Because you're already ahead in workers, you can afford to be extremely cost inefficient with your zealots, because that's what an econ advantage is there for. Spine crawlers? Cost a drone and two opportunity drones, and could only prevent the zealots from running in and killing workers in the main, leaving the zealots to just chill and deny the natural. They're an effective defense, yes, but they would restrict the zerg to only moving out as fast as his creep spread, as well as costing quite a lot of money -and- possibly not being up in time. Roaches? lol. Even just a geyser with two dudes mining it would absolutely kill the rest of the zerg econ, let alone a roach warren in any amount of time to defend Anything that costs gas is out of the question. Again, I 9 pool quite a bit ZvP, and what I'm MOST afraid of is failing to do much of any damage with the 9 pool and being greeted by 2-3 zealots extremely quickly coming over to have their dirty psionic way with my attempted natural expansion. And again, this is with what should be LESS of an economic disadvantage than a 6 pool would have. Though those zealots are not likely to end the game, they are likely to disrupt me at a time where I really need to be making nothing but drones, and do so in a way that doesn't effectively cost the Protoss much (he's still safe on 1 base and making probes) but does cost the zerg something no matter what. That said, Zealots are really friggin' slow. Though I dont think this means you can't use zealots to pressure after a failed 6 pool, I do think it'd be pertinent of blizzard to buff them to somewhere where they're not one of the slowest units in the game. I'm not sure why they're as slow as they are, and giving them even a slight boost to speed (2.35, maybe?) wouldn't make too much of a difference* but would allow protoss a bit more room to use them agressively early game. (*that is, unless it totally screws PvT up with zealots being faster than unstimmed marines) | ||
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Zanzabarr
Canada217 Posts
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scarymeerkat
Canada107 Posts
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37049 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:30 freetgy wrote: well nobody is scared about six pools on shakuras because there are only 2 spawn locations... What? Shakuras is a 4 player map.... | ||
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Zanzabarr
Canada217 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:42 Staboteur wrote: Uhh... Hypothetical situation. 6 pool happens. Is defended without a billion casualties. Worker count is 8 for the zerg, and 12 for the protoss. What's to stop the protoss from chronoboosting out a few (2-3, depending on how well the 6 pool was defended) zealots while constantly producing probes, then expanding behind the pressure when able? Zerglings? If he's making zerglings, he's not making drones, and he really, really needs to make drones. Because you're already ahead in workers, you can afford to be extremely cost inefficient with your zealots, because that's what an econ advantage is there for. Spine crawlers? Cost a drone and two opportunity drones, and could only prevent the zealots from running in and killing workers in the main, leaving the zealots to just chill and deny the natural. They're an effective defense, yes, but they would restrict the zerg to only moving out as fast as his creep spread, as well as costing quite a lot of money -and- possibly not being up in time. Roaches? lol. Even just a geyser with two dudes mining it would absolutely kill the rest of the zerg econ, let alone a roach warren in any amount of time to defend Anything that costs gas is out of the question. Again, I 9 pool quite a bit ZvP, and what I'm MOST afraid of is failing to do much of any damage with the 9 pool and being greeted by 2-3 zealots extremely quickly coming over to have their dirty psionic way with my attempted natural expansion. And again, this is with what should be LESS of an economic disadvantage than a 6 pool would have. Though those zealots are not likely to end the game, they are likely to disrupt me at a time where I really need to be making nothing but drones, and do so in a way that doesn't effectively cost the Protoss much (he's still safe on 1 base and making probes) but does cost the zerg something no matter what. That said, Zealots are really friggin' slow. Though I dont think this means you can't use zealots to pressure after a failed 6 pool, I do think it'd be pertinent of blizzard to buff them to somewhere where they're not one of the slowest units in the game. I'm not sure why they're as slow as they are, and giving them even a slight boost to speed (2.35, maybe?) wouldn't make too much of a difference* but would allow protoss a bit more room to use them agressively early game. (*that is, unless it totally screws PvT up with zealots being faster than unstimmed marines) Zealots move so slow and build so slowly that they aren't going to have the opportunity to be much of a threat in most cases. With all the lost mining time that almost always happens from defending a 6 pool, the protoss isn't really going to want to sacrifice getting a cyber core + gas to chrono out a couple of zeals with crossed fingers anyway. The zerg should have a queen and just a few lings.. and there goes your zealots. They are too slow to do any damage against actual micro. You need to keep one at your choke as well, as if you send the few zeals you have to attack, the zerg can just runby. It is intuitive to think that attacking the zerg with some sort of 1 base timing attack is the way to go after defending a 6 pool, but it generally is a good way to lose the game from my experience, and in watching some pro games. I've seen many a defended 6-pool into 4-gate attack fail miserably due to the cost efficiency differential of the t1 p army against a few spinecrawlers with queen + ling /roach support). | ||
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Zanzabarr
Canada217 Posts
a 4-player map in which you can never spawn close positions. Pro-tip, don't scout the close position, your opponent will never be there. | ||
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DarkHeartsDie
United States13 Posts
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote: Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? lol I'm always being called greedy for FE'ing! Now I'm being called overpowered if Protoss fast expands? Well jeez, I'll just double fast expand before pool and lets see who is overpowered now! :D Besides, if I see FFE, I'm happy to see it because then that means that I can FE with no worries, pump out my roaches faster, run in destroy the forge or cybernetics core with cost effeciant losses, expand to a third with no chances of a counter-attack then tech up to what I want or mass up as fast as I want. My opponent will be a minute or 2 behind without their cyber core ^_^ But I'm in gold league, so it may not work as well in platinum or higher like it does for me in gold. | ||
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
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Conquerer67
United States605 Posts
Also, it's impossible to nerf the 6 pool without destroying the rest of the zerg game. It's like the people who say that hatch first is OP vs terran because it gives the zerg an unbeatable economic advantage that is impossible to counter. And besides, the fear of being six-pooled kinda is there to prevent FEs in ZvZ and ZvP, matchups where it's pretty much necessary for both sides to have some type of army (even if it's just 4 slowlings) before dropping their expansion. 1k masters toss here. shakuras is an easy autowin against 6 pool I'm pretty sure that everybody above silver knows to FFE on Shakuras and Tal'Darim, the distance between naturals means that the timing of the wall and cannon finishing is before the lings would actually arrive. As for the scouting issue, you think it isn't OP at all that zerg can fly an overlord in at 6:00, miss the fourth warpgate, stargate, or dark shrine by about 2 seconds, and lose the game because it's impossible to scout against a good protoss until lair tech, and even then it's kinda iffy? Zerg has been qq'ing about it since... forever, and we haven't got anything to deal with that, so what makes you, OP, think that not scouting a 6 pool is OP. My two cents. | ||
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Zanzabarr
Canada217 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote: I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote: It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. | ||
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navy
Canada197 Posts
In the same way that a 2 gate proxy is a near auto-win against a hatch first zerg, so is a 6 pool a near auto-win against nexus first protoss. The fact that you are getting meta-gamed on maps where nearly every protoss FFE's says nothing about balance. Scout at 6 if you have to. Would it be fair to complain that bunker rush is overpowered vs zerg because I lose every time I go 16 hatch, 15 hatch again (third), 17 pool? Of course not. And that's why the meta game is 15 hatch 14 pool not 15 hatch 16 gas 16 pool. Its not as safe. You are doing a build which is overly economical, its just the meta game has been such for a while that noone really 6 pooled at high levels, and now they are and it's catching you off-guard. it has always been the case that greedy>safe>all-in>greedy etc It would be imabalanced if 6 pool put zerg ahead vs every protoss opening, or that a build which is safe vs 6 pool is so far behind vs a standard zerg opening that you cannot win. This is not the case, simply 3 gate expand. Or even white-ra style 3 gate expand with first gate and cyber near nexus for extra safety. It is a risk for zerg to hatch first vs protoss and risk for protoss to FFE vs zerg. You only feel it's imbalanced because you feel it is YOUR RIGHT TO BE ABLE TO FFE VS ZERG. This isnt the case. Evidently. Zergs learned long ago that the hatch first is crazy risk. So should protoss learn that the early expand is a risk. TL DR You are doing a build which you felt was safe vs zerg. It is not totally safe. It is just that now people are beginning to take blind 6 poolish risks due to shifting meta-game, and it has caught you off guard. | ||
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote: you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. Show me a replay of you doing that as P. Someone just 7 pooled me and I tried to defend with workers. Guess the outcome. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Staboteur
Canada1873 Posts
On September 30 2011 07:51 Zanzabarr wrote: Zealots move so slow and build so slowly that they aren't going to have the opportunity to be much of a threat in most cases. With all the lost mining time that almost always happens from defending a 6 pool, the protoss isn't really going to want to sacrifice getting a cyber core + gas to chrono out a couple of zeals with crossed fingers anyway. The zerg should have a queen and just a few lings.. and there goes your zealots. They are too slow to do any damage against actual micro. You need to keep one at your choke as well, as if you send the few zeals you have to attack, the zerg can just runby. It is intuitive to think that attacking the zerg with some sort of 1 base timing attack is the way to go after defending a 6 pool, but it generally is a good way to lose the game from my experience, and in watching some pro games. I've seen many a defended 6-pool into 4-gate attack fail miserably due to the cost efficiency differential of the t1 p army against a few spinecrawlers with queen + ling /roach support). My entire point was that no matter what they'll do some sort of damage. It isn't a "1 base timing attack", it's making a small handful of zealots (Chances are you've still got one from holding the pressure) to take advantage of your economic advantage (and you do have one if you held the 6 pool at all) by forcing the zerg to make anything that isn't drones. You do it not because you hope to kill off a mineral line or hope to rofl all over his hatchery, you do it for the exact same reason he 6 pooled; it is almost guaranteed to do damage, and it will almost definitely cause major problems in whatever plan he currently has. And don't tell me you can't do it because shit is too slow. Let's pretend you've got one Zealot left from holding the 6 pool, one gateway and enough probes to maintain zealot production out of one gateway, constant probe production and enough left over to get pylons / gateways / forges / cyber cores / a gas if you so desire. It takes 38 seconds to build a zealot, so with a single chronoboost, just over a minute later you've got three happy zealots ready to go do business to your opponent's stuff. If he doesn't have ~12 zerglings making and a queen already out by the time your zealots are halfway across the map, he's in trouble. Again, if he doesn't forego the production of 6 drones -and- already have a queen out he might just outright die. If he DOES forego the production of 6 drones AND pull the queen to defend, you can still prevent him from having any hope of attacking or expanding AND you slowed down his economy while giving yourself space to advance your own. Zergling runby you say? With slow lings? Two questions immediately come to mind: One, why the fuck does he have lings when he can only afford to be making drones to have even a dream of an economy, and two, lolol at slow lings because there's no way in hell he's got ling speed even started, let alone done. In order for a ling runby to even be remotely feasible he'd have to have produced the lings after the 6 pool was already held (which means his economy should be fully laughable at this point), he'd have to have one scouting to see if you leave your base and the rest positioned out of sight but near your base, and he'd have to have his fingers crossed pretty damn hard that you don't spot his potential runby and block with a pylon or probes OR leave a zealot behind. Slow lings also take quite some time to jaunt across the map, so the logistics of him doing a ling runby as a response to your zealot pressure means he has to have both prepared for it before hand AND be convinced that he'll somehow magically do more damage with a handful of lings than your 3 zealots will do to his entire base. And that's assuming his runby even gets there before the next gateway unit is out to block the choke. It isn't about a 1 base timing attack like a 4 gate. It's about making units and attacking immediately to take advantage of your current economic advantage, because your current economic advantage won't last forever due to the zerg ability to focus all production solely on drones, when allowed. You don't -have- to tech because he -can't afford to- tech, and you have the advantage because the zerg literally cannot afford to do anything other than make drones. Plus zealots in any number over one are really good against zerglings. The micro on the zerg's part becomes exponentially more difficult the more zealots are involved. Again, a 9 pool is a different story. You try zealot counter a 9 pool and you're likely to meet an already-finished natural expansion and a pair of frisky spine crawlers. | ||
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