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On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose.
What is the point of posting, if you don't even read the post. Look at what I said in the last paragraph genius. You come off as a scrub player who doesn't know what he is talking about.
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On September 30 2011 08:05 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. Show me a replay of you doing that as P. Someone just 7 pooled me and I tried to defend with workers. Guess the outcome.
White-Ra does it all the time.
I think the problem is that 6pool is easy to execute yet hard to stop. At Masters/GM level it's pretty easy to stop if you went standard 13gate and scout it (which is 67% of the time), but for diamond and below it's really difficult.
I don't think a 6pool nerf is in order though, it would pretty much make Protoss safe opening Nexus First FFE on almost any map. I'm not sure how you could make it easier to deal with as Toss, I believe there is a published 6pool map where you just face off against 6pool. If you get the zerg in one of your two scout locations you should be able to chrono out a zealot and stop the pressure ez with some decent micro.
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The answer, imo, is to not Forge FE at all. I never understood why people did that build in the first place. You are vulnerable to an early pool if you scout them last, you are vulnerable to a quick roach rush, or baneling bust if you dont make enough cannons or sentries, and they can just take a FREE third base if they arent doing an all in vs you. When is forge FE good?
Also I dont really understand why zerg can get away with 6 pooling on a 4 player map. It always seems like they know where you are before you know where they are. I never beat 6 pools no matter what I do lol. As a response to the title of this thread: yes I definately think 6 pool is overpowered.
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On September 30 2011 08:38 Zanzabarr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. What is the point of posting, if you don't even read the post. Look at what I said in the last paragraph genius. You come off as a scrub player who doesn't know what he is talking about.
So do you, with your allusions to Zerg's magic-eyeball scouting that lets him see gateway next to nexus behind a 10 pool. What is this, close air positions all map every map, or is the zerg doing some sexy 8-scout 10-pool that merits sacrificing one's own economy quite drastically in a hope that your zerglings actually do some sort of damage and aren't just thwarted by the fact that zealots with probe support kick the absolute shit out of zerglings and you just permanently scarred your early economy with the hope that attacking a tight, closed point defended by zealots would do you good.
In any case, I'm 95% sure you're a silver league troll at this point. Cheers, have fun with whoemever else you manage to suck in in this thread.
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On September 30 2011 08:05 Chocolate wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. Show me a replay of you doing that as P. Someone just 7 pooled me and I tried to defend with workers. Guess the outcome.
I wish this thread would be closed because it's just a bunch of nonsensical whining that doesn't contribute anything to this forum.
7 pool is 10000% different than 6 pool. 7 pool can possibly continuously reinforce depending on his build order, and you will be able to scout it in advance with a single scout on every map except tal'darim where early pools are much more difficult to pull off.
The fact that 6 pool is hard-capped at 14 lings (and usually 10) means that you will always have an army advantage if you chrono your gateway and pull some probes.
Now, if you failed from the first 6-10 lings, then that has nothing to do with continuous reinforcements and you just failed at micro. If that's the case, post the replay, or find someone to 6 pool you.
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6 pool is op, because even if i stop it, the game goes on for 30 more minutes
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On September 30 2011 09:40 eatmybunnies wrote:
6 pool is op, because even if i stop it, the game goes on for 30 more minutes
Sounds like 2-rax to me.
That is... 2-rax after the latest patch.
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I have tested various Protoss openers against 6pool over many games against my team mate (also a GM) on most of the current map pool. For what its worth, my conclusions are as follows.
You are welcome to attempt to replicate my results yourself. I hope you will forgive me for not bothering you with the replays. All you would see in any event is me getting 6 pooled over and over for about 50 games(which might be good if your having trouble sleeping). Quite frankly, I didn't bother saving them.
Forge Fast Expand
I tested FFE on different maps over about 30 games against my team mate, also a GM Zerg, under "perfect conditions".
My conclusion is that if you FFE, on any map (with the possible except of TDA), in most cases you cannot reliably complete the wall off by the time the lings arrive.
I was occassionally (but not consistently) able to complete a wall on TDA and Shakuras when:
1. I sent my 13th probe to make a forge (with my 14 probe building);
2. My probe scouted the Zerg spawn first; and
3. I immediately cut probes (14 total), and then made gateway, cannon gateway (3 buildings only) to complete the wall.
It is possible to do this 50% of the time on Shakuras (ie you scout them first 1 in 2 games). TDA it is much lower because (1) you scout them first only 33% of the time, and (2) some spawns you need a fourth building to complete the wall, and I simply could not collect enough minerals in time.
On Shakuras and TDA (and also Abyssmal caverns), the most common "full block" maps, when my opponent also sent his drones to harass as soon as he had collected 150 minerals for the 6 lings, I was never able to get a wall or cannon up in time at my natural, even after taking the three steps above.
Obviously, on maps like XNC and some of the other 4 player maps, it is never possible to make a complete wall off, so this option is unrealistic.
I would conclude that wall off is unreliable at best, especially given the possibility they may also send their drones to harass if you are lucky enough to scout their spawn first.
Cannon in main
Now, having eliminated walling off as a realistic possibility against a competent opponent in most cases, the next option is obviously to abandon the initial pylon and forge, and immediately make a cannon and pylon in your main. I have also tested this against different 6pool on various maps (some with shorter rush distances than others, including 4player maps where you pick up information about the 6 pool when scouting the last spawn).
In most cases, it is possible to get a pylon and cannon up in your main so that the cannon spawns just as (or just after) the lings arrive.
Cannon in main where you scout zerg spawn second
On four player maps, where you scout their spawn second, the timing will generally be that the lings are on their way around the time your proves arrive. If you immediately build a pylon in your main at that point, followed by a cannon, the cannon should have just started in your main as the lings arrive. You then have to micro your probes really well so as not to fall behind.
In this scenario, assuming they drone after sending the first 6 lings, and are able to take out several probes before your cannon finishes, they are generally on a relatively even footing going into the mid game. Zerg is generally slightly behind on drones, but you have also generally lost a few probes and have also lost the pylon and forge. The game can be dynamic from that point.
On TDA, even when I scouted the Zerg second, the lings were generally in my base at around that time (or very shortly after). You will notice Korean pros double scout on this map when FFEing. This is the reason for this.
Cannon in main when scouting Zerg spawn last
In this scenario, my opponent's lings arrived in my main before I actually scouted his spawn. Obviously, there was no realistic possibility of getting a pylon (let alone a cannon) up, and the only option was to fight lings with probes. With good ling micro/harassment, and either (1) a constant stream of lings reinforcing, or (2) my opponent droning hard while harassing, I rapidly dropped behind.
Overall conclusion on cannon-in-main option
My overall conclusion was that cannon-in-main is very safe on Shakuras and somewhat safe on TDA.
On four player maps such as Shattered, Abyssmal and Antiga, it comes down to when you scout them. As a rough rule of thumb:
1. If you scout them first and cannon-in-main, you hold and are ahead.
2. If you scout them second and cannon-in-main, you are generally on an even footing going into the mid game (depending how well you micro'd while your cannon was warping in).
3. If you scout them third and cannon-in-main, you will be significantly behind, and possibly just outright dead.
Overall conclusion on 6 pool against FFE
My overall all conclusion is that 6 pool is not overpowered against P, and can be dealt so as to give you at least an even game in more than 50% of cases.
However, I feel that it is a gambler's opening on smaller 4 player maps where FFE is common. In 33% of cases, P will scout it first and be ahead, in 33% of cases the players will be roughly even, and in 33% of cases the P will be significantly behind. This cuts both ways, of couse - if you FFE as P, you need to be aware that a zerg who decides to flip the coin may simply kill you outright.
On TDA where FFE is the norm, I can see why 6 pool has become "the meta game" in Korea (to quote tastosis in a recent GSL game). It gives you a chance to outright kill your opponent, or at least be on an even footing in the majority of cases.
On Shakuras, which has only 3 spawns and a natural that can be blocked with 3 buildings in all cases, I think 6pool is a weak opening, assuming P executes a correct (not greedy) build. It seems to me it is only viable when Z also sends all his drones so as to prevent a complete block, but in this case P should have time to get a cannon up in his main and any probe losses are more than offset by the fact that Z has pulled all his drones.
Gateway at ramp
The same issues with scouting on 4 player maps apply here. If you pylon scout and reach Zerg's spawn first, obviously you have your choice of forge/cannon block at ramp or second gate (with temporary pylon block) and chonoing a zealot.
When I scouted Zerg second (and definately when I scouted them third) , I actually found myself in a worse position than when I opened FFE. In this case you simply cannot get a zealot out in anything close to time, and you need to pull probes to protect the valuable pylon powering your gateway.
This further reinforces my conclusion that 6pool is basically a "gamblers opening" on 4 player maps. I would certainly recommend Zerg 6 pooling in all cases on such maps where they feel their opponent is more skilled than them, as it is an opening that negates all skill differences and basically gives Zerg a 50/50 chance of winning assuming moderately competent micro.
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6 pool isn't even cheese, if you don't autowin cause of scout last, good defence etc etc - just drone up and game is even. That's the most annoying thing =/
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On September 30 2011 09:55 ZealotMaster wrote:
On Shakuras, which has only 3 spawns and a natural that can be blocked with 3 buildings in all cases, I think 6pool is a weak opening, assuming P executes a correct (not greedy) build. It seems to me it is only viable when Z also sends all his drones so as to prevent a complete block, but in this case P should have time to get a cannon up in his main and any probe losses are more than offset by the fact that Z has pulled all his drones.
Gateway at ramp
When I scouted Zerg second (and definately when I scouted them third) , I actually found myself in a worse position than when I opened FFE. In this case you simply cannot get a zealot out in anything close to time, and you need to pull probes to protect the valuable pylon powering your gateway.
Completing the wall doesn't necessarily save you at all. If the zerg player decided to reinforce (which he should), you'll lose your wall almost every time, and you may or may not survive depending on spawning positions on Shakuras especially (and, as you said, if/when you cut probes)
If you gated first, scouting information is next to worthless to you, since the best thing you can do is probe dance which doesn't require any advance warning. This is the best possible position you can be in when facing a 6 pool. The worst position is when you seal a wall on Shakuras but it's too late, so you die a slow and frustrating death over the following 2-3 minutes.
You can't get a zealot out in time independent of how soon you scout him because off a 12 gate, your zealot usually will have just started in a best case scenario, leaving you still 20-25 seconds to deal with zerglings, so this is a moot point. You do need to pull some probes, but I don't understand why you consider this a worse position?? If you don't wall off from a 1-gate core opening, that 6 pool is very likely to do almost no damage with somewhat decent probe dancing. Zerg needs to significantly out-micro you to inflict any damage, or depend on a late or non-reaction to snipe your pylon before a zealot can get out.
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@michaelhasanalias
In relation to Shakuras, provided you build forge, gateway, cannon, gateway, I found I could just hold (when I scouted them first and they did not send drones to harass). The building order is critical because they start (or should start) killing your forge immediately, which is the weakest building in the wall, and the timing for getting the cannon up before the forge dies is very tight.
I see that you play on SEA - come to channel [TA] and ask me for a game some time, I would be happy to test the timing with you. If it turns out I am wrong, then it may be that cannon-in-main is also required in these circumstances on Shakuras.
In relation to gateway-first on 4 player maps, I feel that scouting information is relevant to the extent that if you find them first, you may have just enough time to get a forge/cannon up (you will probably also need to execute a temporary pylon block). Executing this block properly correctly is depends on things like whether it is possible to reinforce by adding buildings behind etc, which will depend on the particular ramp.
I agree that, as you say, if you scout them second or third, there's nothing to do but pull probes and micro (so scouting information is irrelevant).
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I don't think 6 pool is op but I do think learning your correct timings and proper responses sure is OP.
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If he 6 pools then there are likely 8 lings incoming with only 7 drones behind it - you'll have around 2 times as many workers as him. Pylon in your mineral line when you spot the cheese and drop a cannon at it as soon as possible. You lose your forge but you get out with a stockpile of minerals and have a worker advantage. He'll get an expand up earlier than you due to his map presence but he'll have a weaker economy, just expand when you can and you'll likely be even or slightly ahead. His tech will also be terribly delayed so a relatively quick gateway response is usually pretty potent.
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On September 30 2011 09:40 eatmybunnies wrote:
6 pool is op, because even if i stop it, the game goes on for 30 more minutes
Yep its only because of a single unit "Queen" the inject larva allows zerg to catch up at a ridiculous rate if they only make drones. Yes toss has Chrono boost but its not the same 6 larva a pop compared to just speeding up probe production does not cancel each other out.
Zerg is the only race with a ridiculously good open cheese, terran is a 2nd with proxy rax and bunker rushes, while toss is really ALL IN. Toss can proxy gateway or cannon rush both which have no points of return if they are stopped.
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I hate to sound like a Protoss traitor here (I really do hate getting 6 pooled), but if, as many people in this thread seem to acknowledge, Zerg is not "all in" by 6 pooling, why bother calling it cheese?
Seems to me it is a viable opening, and time would be better spent analysing the timings and learning how to deal with it.
Of course I agree with the complaint that it is so easy to execute compared with the potential pay off. But I don't think this complaint is the end of the matter. On four player maps, I think it allows Zerg to negate any difference in skill about 33% of the time (ie where they hit you with lings completely blind because you scouted them last). In the other 66% of cases, Zerg is either very behind (you scouted them first and reacted properly) or on an even footing, in which if you truly are the more skilled player you will go on to win the game.
Also, I know we're not supposed to go into balance theorycrafting on the forums, but if you will forgive me for doing so, I am not sure how Blizzard could really address this issue without messing up other aspects of the game. The suggestion, I suppose, would be to make a spawning pool require an overlord. But would this give Protoss too much of an advantage, knowing that they could Nexus first on just about any map of a decent size?
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On September 30 2011 08:51 Staboteur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 08:38 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 08:01 Endymion wrote:you can hold a 6 pool with just workers.. On September 30 2011 07:57 Zanzabarr wrote:On September 30 2011 07:44 scarymeerkat wrote:
I have a question, maybe it's stupid. I play as zerg, and in zvz vs diamond level zergs, I can hold off the first 6 lings with drone micro usually.... I lose a couple obviously, but I can hold it off and shouldnt this plus a cannon or something be enough to be ahead vs 6pool? It's not just 6 a-moved lings that kill the protoss, it's the use of ling micro + constant streaming of lings that is the major problem, and the vulnerability of your pylon powering a gateway that is at your ramp, far from your nexus. It's like a dance. He attacks your pylon, you pull probes, he micros and tries to pick off a few probes while streaming in more lings. Generally building your pylon + gate beside your nexus can allow you to hold the 6 pool easily (like drones with a spawning pool nearby), but I find that build puts you at great risk against any zerg who is using the 10 pool opening, sees your lack of wall at ramp, and masses lings into your base before you can wall off. The amount of time lings can be in your base running around before you can do anything to catch them will put you behind economically. don't give me this, you think ZvZ is easier to hold 6 pools because of building placement? then place your buildings at your nexus, it's not like we can wall our ramps off either.. you just have to man up and deal with the 6 pool or you'll lose. What is the point of posting, if you don't even read the post. Look at what I said in the last paragraph genius. You come off as a scrub player who doesn't know what he is talking about. So do you, with your allusions to Zerg's magic-eyeball scouting that lets him see gateway next to nexus behind a 10 pool. What is this, close air positions all map every map, or is the zerg doing some sexy 8-scout 10-pool that merits sacrificing one's own economy quite drastically in a hope that your zerglings actually do some sort of damage and aren't just thwarted by the fact that zealots with probe support kick the absolute shit out of zerglings and you just permanently scarred your early economy with the hope that attacking a tight, closed point defended by zealots would do you good. In any case, I'm 95% sure you're a silver league troll at this point. Cheers, have fun with whoemever else you manage to suck in in this thread.
What are you even talking about? Are you actually suggesting that a zerg cannot scout the protoss who builds his gateway next to nexus in time to harass with lings off of a 10-pool.... I'm beginning to think you don't even play this game. I am a Masters league Protoss, who in response to being 6-pooled with a gate first build and scouting the zerg last, switched to a gate next to nexus in the next game on a 4-player map to ensure a win against 6-p, and the masters zerg who opened 10p went mass ling upon seeing this before a wall-off was possible. It isn't possible to really scout a zerg after his standard few lings that early in the game.... to see if he decided to make a few more. I didn't die to it, but the harass allowed him to get way ahead economically while I had to wait for stalkers to get out to deal with the well micro'd lings.
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On September 28 2011 18:35 d00p wrote:
Sounds like you have vetoed all the horrible new maps that are really bad for zerg. Maybe unveto searing crater etc and veto shakuras and tal darim (you can still veto xel naga if you must)? Should be getting more P and T after that.
I'm pretty sure you get matched to the player first, and then the map is selected... vetos don't make a difference. (yeah I know that was pages ago, but still....someone was wrong on the internet :p ).
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Here is what I will say about 6 pool. After a few months of playing I was in gold. My wife got really bored one night and she used to like AOE 2 and I have an extra account so she figured what the hell and learned the six pool and started laddering. Five placement matches later she was in Platinum and was like "Haven't you been trying to get to Platinum for months?" It got worse later that month when I was demoted to Silver.  She no longer ladders, but I do occationally get her to help me practice my six pool defense which is one reason I was able to get to Platinum eventually.
If I scout 6 pool first it is practially an autowin for me. If I scout it second I win more than half, but barely. On Tal Darim I usually lose even if I scout it second, because the wall off is tough and if I fall back to my main I tend to get outmacroed.
I like Xel Naga Caverns and Shakuras because I do not need to worry about scouting 6 pool last. If I scout 6 pool last it is basically an autoloss.
Regarding Nexus First: Can Protoss safely Nexus first vs an 11 Pool or 10 Pool?
As much as I dislike 6 pool I would actually say that being cannon rushed is harder to defend. Between the "Boss" cannon rush and various low ground shenanigans on XNC and Metalopolis it can be very tough to defend. Also that crappy 3 Rax opening with calldown on supply and the SCV pull is really hard too. Of all the race's cheeses I would actually say defending Zerg's cheese (at my level) is easiest with Toss. The advantage of 6 pool is that you can actually use it against all races, while Cannon rushing is pretty weak against T or Z.
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Ya If you FFE just go pylon 9- scout, forge 12/13, chrono probes then if you havnt scouted them yet, put your 15/16 pylon at your mineral line. If you see early pool, drop a cannon or 2(not really necessary)... Then when lings come you just micro probes (you really shouldn't lose any) until cannon is finished. Drop a gateway or 2, get gas and either save chrono for warp tech or just chrono probes.
Build zealots constantly out of ur gateways and send them to his base. When this fails for a Zerg all they want to do is drone. You can either 5 gate all in or expand yourself, I prefer all in-ing out of spite.
There is no reason you should lose unless you do something notibly wrong..
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On September 30 2011 11:31 Jemesatui wrote:
Ya If you FFE just go pylon 9- scout, forge 12/13, chrono probes then if you havnt scouted them yet, put your 15/16 pylon at your mineral line. If you see early pool, drop a cannon or 2(not really necessary)... Then when lings come you just micro probes (you really shouldn't lose any) until cannon is finished. Drop a gateway or 2, get gas and either save chrono for warp tech or just chrono probes.
Build zealots constantly out of ur gateways and send them to his base. When this fails for a Zerg all they want to do is drone. You can either 5 gate all in or expand yourself, I prefer all in-ing out of spite.
There is no reason you should lose unless you do something notibly wrong..
I find going for a 1 base warpgate counter attack can often lose you the game. The zerg can quite reliably defend with much less cost of army as long as he has his queens fighting and the token 3+ spines that will be at the natural.
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EPT
