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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
14forge scout at 9pylon scout after the forge as well. two scouts in order to see lings coming so you can pull probes to protect your cannon as the lings come drop a cannon right after forge is done. make your wall forge/pylon/gateway/pylon, cannon behind it when you see lings coming, finish your wall and pull all your probes except for 2 to defend the cannon as its building. you only need to defend against 6lings while its building. once wall is done resume mining you will be far ahead | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On September 30 2011 10:29 ZealotMaster wrote: @michaelhasanalias In relation to Shakuras, provided you build forge, gateway, cannon, gateway, I found I could just hold (when I scouted them first and they did not send drones to harass). The building order is critical because they start (or should start) killing your forge immediately, which is the weakest building in the wall, and the timing for getting the cannon up before the forge dies is very tight. I see that you play on SEA - come to channel [TA] and ask me for a game some time, I would be happy to test the timing with you. If it turns out I am wrong, then it may be that cannon-in-main is also required in these circumstances on Shakuras. In relation to gateway-first on 4 player maps, I feel that scouting information is relevant to the extent that if you find them first, you may have just enough time to get a forge/cannon up (you will probably also need to execute a temporary pylon block). Executing this block properly correctly is depends on things like whether it is possible to reinforce by adding buildings behind etc, which will depend on the particular ramp. I agree that, as you say, if you scout them second or third, there's nothing to do but pull probes and micro (so scouting information is irrelevant). I'm saying that, in the situation where you go gateway first and your opponent 6 pools, scouting information is irrelevant. Forge/cannon isn't the best option for you to even execute, probe dancing is. So, the best reaction doesn't actually require scouting information. Now, against other early pools, a forge/cannon would be useful, but you will be able to scout these in advance. Against 6 pool specifically, you shouldn't forge/cannon off 1-gate core openers. The reason I mention Shakuras specifically is because the spawning positions aren't equal because the map doesn't have reflective symmetry. This is why you had inconsistent results on your walling practice. It's a big difference if you spawn top left to bottom right versus bottom left to top right. That difference means maybe you can seal your wall and have a cannon in time. Here's a post I just made in another thread that maybe you'd be interested in: On September 30 2011 09:06 michaelhasanalias wrote: I think it's worth noting that few people realize Shakuras Plateau is actually translationally symmetrical, not bilaterally symmetrical. Also, the pathing from any given main to either opposite main passes through the same midpoint in the map. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4pG01.png) If you look closely, the top left and bottom right positions are actually the closest rush distances you can get. Bottom left and top right are the furthest, and then either close air positions are in the middle. The rush distance is something like 5-7 seconds for zerglings between the close and far cross position spawns. What all this means is that if you fear some kind of rush, and you spawn on the left side of the map, you should always scout bottom right first because it's always the closer of the two positions. If you spawn on the right side of the map, you should always scout top left first. A game-related application of this would be like so: In PvZ if Protoss opts for a 13 forge to fast expand, he will die to a well executed 6 pool if he spawned top left and zerg was bottom right. However, he will be completely safe if he spawned top right and the zerg spawned bottom left. Those five extra seconds allow enough time for the cannon to complete before the wall can go down. Conversely, those five fewer seconds allow the zerg to dismantle the wall and take down the cannon, killing the protoss if he tried to complete the wall instead of pylon/cannoning his mineral line. | ||
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PieLieDie
Sweden172 Posts
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saltessio
United States15 Posts
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote: Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
On September 28 2011 17:25 OptimusYale wrote: Losing to 6pool is embarassing, I thought by now people would know how to defend. As a Zerg I never win with 6 pool. If you feel that all zergs cheese, send a scout out earlier, see what they're up to.... Earlier than 9? What are you talking about? | ||
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Oreo7
United States1647 Posts
On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote: I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy. You can't really make a comparison. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10324 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really. A forge + cannon is a waste and like some said if he just makes 6 lings and drones immediately (which is what I do when i play zerg and 6 pool or 7 pool) then the game will not be necessarily in your favor just by defending the 6 lings. Your gas tech will be significantly behind, u will have to kill ur pylon or such later on to leave your base, and the zerg should be able to catch up on econ/drones very easily (8-9 drones depending if 6 pool or 7 pool by time 6 lings start to build, then as you drone and your lings hit his base you should be at 12-14 drones while the protoss usually will have 15 ish, but even less if he cut in order to get forge+canon out; also get a queen and gas or a hatch or such). | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
On September 30 2011 12:46 PieLieDie wrote: i never 6p anymore because i dont feel i get ahead even if i get the forge+pylon, most protosses seem to build a cannon in their mineral line which makes the game 8-9 drones vs 16-20 and even though i have an early queen i don't feel very comfortable Exactly what I thought. I once tried 6 pooling colrsvp and he added the cannon in the mineral line. Since then, I have abandoned any kind of 6 pooling. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
well nobody is scared about six pools on shakuras because there are only 2 spawn locations... On September 30 2011 07:49 Seeker wrote: What? Shakuras is a 4 player map.... /end of discussion | ||
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SoBeDragon
United States192 Posts
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-KuDoKu-
1 Post
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote: Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? exactly this. zergs get punished a lot for fast expanding with a lot of different cheese. Just gotta learn how to deal with it with proper scouting. obviously if you don't see it coming you're screwed but thats just part of the game. If you scout one way on a 4 player map and they're on the other side then oh well...it's your fault for not going that way or sending 2 probes to be extra safe when being greedy. | ||
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willsterben
25 Posts
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
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s031720
Sweden383 Posts
I play z, in teamplay ive been 6 pooled by three (3) zergs at the same time and have held it off with only workers, initial queen and a spinecrawler or two as soon as opportunity allows. Lings simply die to mineralwalking and queensurrounds. P are getting greedy and are getting punished for it. On one hand its a BO win if 6-pool ever succeeds; and if the OP had used a smarter BO (considering 90% of every player he meets is Z, and 90% of the does 6-pool) he would be in GM in no time due to all the automatic wins. On the other hand, 6-pool should never succeed, not even against subopitmal P-builds. Mineralwalk to kill the 6 first, or to hold them off enough to get your first Zealot or canon, after that there is no way Z can do any real damage unless you truly are the worse player. (and in that case you deserve to loose anyway). | ||
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willsterben
25 Posts
On September 30 2011 12:46 PieLieDie wrote: i never 6p anymore because i dont feel i get ahead even if i get the forge+pylon, most protosses seem to build a cannon in their mineral line which makes the game 8-9 drones vs 16-20 and even though i have an early queen i don't feel very comfortable well you might not feel like it but technically you ARE ahead. you have an early queen and can produce nothing but drones and an early expo without having to fear anything at all. just try to hit every inject even if you can't use the larvae right away | ||
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Joseph123
Bulgaria1144 Posts
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willsterben
25 Posts
6pool well you shouldn't outright DIE to it either if you play a somewhat safe build. but terran.. well...... let's just say sc2 is a really great game if you play terran. | ||
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HeavyWeapons
50 Posts
 Also you can drone up after your initial lings . | ||
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jarod
Romania766 Posts
Now there are some stuff you can do. 1. scout with probe after pylon(9) scout with probe after forge(13) - only if you didnt find it.. the problem is scouting... if you are unlucky you find it to late.. 2. white-ra style.. : 9- pylon scout 13- forge -15- pilon near nexus (main) if scouts 6 poll he makes canon in mineral line and throw down gateway - defend with probes until canon is ready and from there you can start an even match. 3. just play it safe... pylon->forge->canon nexus/gate (depending on what you have scouted) - this is throwing you behind.. but really .. not so much | ||
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