EPTUnless im missing something, in which case i would like to know
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ItsDrea
Australia7 Posts
Unless im missing something, in which case i would like to know | ||
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Alsa
France10 Posts
i think it's the same thought behind it. this one should be working better for maps like xel naga with open natural, the other one is working well with natural chokes. as you will see in the other thread you re not behind in mid game (even without concrete damage),as you re very flexible. and mostly this builds are fantastic fun, because it's not the passive protoss waiting in his base play | ||
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RRjr
Germany40 Posts
My midgame against Zerg in general has also become much better since I started dropping Zealots to snipe queens and possibly kill some drones. The implied damage from delayed / denied larva injects can spell doom for Zerg. With the shieldbuff to prisms this will be less risky now, too. | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
I dislike the idea of playing a build which works mostly because the opponent gets confused and screws up. There are many players who do that, but because i meet the same players somewhat frequently i maybe lose the first one and i have an easier time in the upcoming games. back to the build, i dont think double exping is even marginally logical vs gw forge, as it could be either a 1 base allin or a delayed canon exp. I would just scout the timings on your gases, and have a ling to check on your forge. If the forge is spinning 4gate +1 allin, if the gases are very fast then some sort of tech rush and i put down an evo. If he shows intentions of exping, meaning tries to put pylon on low ground, doesnt have +1 in the forge, doesnt have quick gases, then you can expo again as Zerg or go for the ~26 drone roach-allin which will be a lot harder to hold off because the P doesnt have that 2 large buildings preventing the zerg forces to overrun him. For example the screenshot of the Xel Naga game you put up shows a fairly juicy expo which could be easily busted with a well executed roach-ling-allin. You say zealot+canon does well vs roaches, well i dont know about that, and it surely gets overrun by the roach-ling atack i mentioned, if done correctly. | ||
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Baseic
Netherlands310 Posts
 (Actually lost to this once) | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
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BackSlashZero
Canada9 Posts
That said, its a good build with some significant potential but I wonder if you're not also falling into the trap of thinking like every other toss does ie: zergs don't use banes against toss early game | ||
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SelectStaR
United Kingdom129 Posts
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Crow!
United States150 Posts
I've never been up against Spanishiwa style though - I could see mass Queens holding this without trouble while not tying up larva. But by the same token, seeing 4 queens should guarantee for me that I don't need cannons for a while (just like Spine Crawlers), so I should be able to tech up faster too. And if his gas is that late, I'm starting the game +1/+1 ahead, upgrade wise, which should make up for having a few fewer workers. But this is theorycraft. @SergioCQH: I'd love to get some more games vs baneling busts! Those are always very exciting. @HardMacro: from your description I think your build must have been very different from mine strategically - I get a Nexus up without stopping the Zealot production, at a timing where if Zerg is still droning he takes too much damage, and if not we arrive at the midgame with me at +1/+1 and one tech structure and him at one of: he's about to lose to my coming push from droning too much, or he's trying to take a third with an army, or he's on some form of lair tech. It's not auto-win for me, of course, but I just like the position; it fits my style. Was your build a 3-gateway +1 weapons pressure with the same follow-up game plan? My build was like that a few iterations ago and in that version I had the problems you're talking about until I dropped the gateway count to 2 and set down my expansion pylon as the third pylon. @ItsDrea: By the time you want to take a third, you have a good sized midgame +1/+1 army with Zealots, Stalkers, and either Immortals or Blink or Void Rays that you can use to secure it. The only way this army won't be big enough is if he never went for his second expo - in which case you can do 2 base vs 2 base with you having a head start on upgrades. @Geo.Rion: I find the claim that I should beat Hatchery first pretty interesting - is the Zealot+Cannon rush effectively unstoppable in that case? I generally just go the economic route and delay my push for an earlier Nexus so I can keep up with the Zerg economically, and I usually consider this my weakest case rather than my best. For Roach/ling, if your attack comes earlier than shown above there's going to be more cannons to deal with as your army continues to try to push (and a smaller army to start with on your side), while if the attack comes at that time or later there's going to be Immortals up before long. If I get caught unprepared I die, sure, but that's how strategy games are supposed to be. @BackSlashZero: I've only lost to banelings once out of ~8 encounters. My attack hits the banelinger about the time the Banelings morph, putting us either in a base trade scenario which I find deals me less damage than the Zerg, or else he deals with my +1 Zealots with Baneling/Zergling, which is actually much less effective than you'd think, and this clears up enough of the initial attack for me to prepare spread out photon cannons in the natural and block the main with zealots spaced apart enough not to both die to banelings (if the map permits, anyway). | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
You could back off as far as demanding that things be all-in, just a small poke is plenty to secure at least equal economies. Overall, it's a good start to a very solid standard opener vs Zerg. | ||
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
Personally i think it looks interesting, but tech seems extremely slow. That cyber after expo delays not only WG/stalker/sentry but also robo/tc/sg tech route. Because of this slow tech I feel like a 2 base roach push would be very strong and force you into lots of cannons (which further delays everything) But idn I'm a nub. I'll def try it out I'll say that ! OT: very well constructed guide btw | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On September 22 2011 23:13 stokes17 wrote: Not to discredit the OP's skill (I'm in the same boat) But do any of the blue posters have an opinion on this build/style? I'd be extremely interested in their thoughts. Personally i think it looks interesting, but tech seems extremely slow. That cyber after expo delays not only WG/stalker/sentry but also robo/tc/sg tech route. Because of this slow tech I feel like a 2 base roach push would be very strong and force you into lots of cannons (which further delays everything) But idn I'm a nub. I'll def try it out I'll say that ! OT: very well constructed guide btw Tech is not notably slower due to the gateway before forge, it's slower due to the Zealots and +1, which is fine because you are forcing Zerg to deal with it by massing low-tier units himself. There needs to be a solid poke at some point, whether it's with the 4 zealots or a half-hearted 4-gate, you NEED to push out to force some units (ex: walk your army up to his nat, build a pylon there, warp in a round of units, then return home). Assuming you figure out the nuances to that, you should be in a much better position than standard FFE leaves you because your early aggression will have effectively denied a fast 3rd from Zerg. | ||
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ma70
253 Posts
#1. You probably won't re-play the opponents again. If they don't respond to this right the first time, there's your win. #2. Zergs probably aren't used to early pressure that aren't 4 Gates. But I'm willing to test this out against some of my practice partners....I'm only in Masters though so it won't mean much unless a blue poster does it | ||
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pg88
1 Post
I'm a rather average plat player doing a 4 gate + forge (just for the +1) with standard timing for gate and cyber and forge a little bit after which results in either me winning or being unable to expand due to a heavy roach presence... good to find something that addresses the issue and uses +1 earlier (I love it) that allows me to expand too | ||
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Dremic
66 Posts
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Crow!
United States150 Posts
On September 22 2011 23:47 pg88 wrote: Quite an interesting guide, might try this variation. I'm a rather average plat player doing a 4 gate + forge (just for the +1) with standard timing for gate and cyber and forge a little bit after which results in either me winning or being unable to expand due to a heavy roach presence... good to find something that addresses the issue and uses +1 earlier (I love it) that allows me to expand too Yeah, that's how this build started - and when I was at that level, too! I was like "I HATE LINGS DIE DIE DIE", but I wound up with a build that was a total piece of cheese that couldn't secure an expo if I didn't win outright. I got to high plat using a 3-gateway version with no core, and now I'm hanging out at high Diamond with 2 gates. Good luck! | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On September 22 2011 18:32 Alsa wrote: for everyone who likes this guide i would recommend this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259635 i think it's the same thought behind it. this one should be working better for maps like xel naga with open natural, the other one is working well with natural chokes. as you will see in the other thread you re not behind in mid game (even without concrete damage),as you re very flexible. and mostly this builds are fantastic fun, because it's not the passive protoss waiting in his base play Yeah I've been using that noumena's guide on all maps you can FFE exclusively now and it is very solid, you just have to learn all the various timings that can hurt you. I've been curious if there was a 1-base version since I've been loving the heavy zealot early game and zealot/immortal mid-game in PvZ. For a 1-base version banelings do seem like a big concern if you delay your core too much. If you FFE you can wall-off pretty easily making them require a large amount of banelings to bust it which gives you the time to throw down extra cannons and get some sentries up. The actual speed of teching is not as big of a concern to me because you are not making many sentries compared to a sentry expand so that makes up for a lot in terms of teching since you can channel more of your gas into teching instead of units. | ||
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WeaVerPrime
34 Posts
Good Guide, nice explanation  | ||
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Poo
Canada536 Posts
#1 - You're sacrificing early game sentries. #2 - Your expansion is late. Why is #1 an issue? I understand you have a forge, and you are also up an enclosed ramp in most scenarios - implying that you're likely safe from most cheeses. But, vs roach openers, I actually think the lack of sentries is quite an issue. Against players opening roach, I would imagine an early pressure + contain with roaches would actually put you behind significantly. You would lack FF to prevent roaches up ramp, you'd be unable to snipe floating OL's and it'd ultimately force an 'x' number of cannons depending on the situation. You'd likely end up more behind than you should be - if not dead. But, then that really just becomes an issue of being dealt a bad build order from your opponent. So lets consider if there's no roach opener. Lets say you open up with 3-5 zealots with +1, you're cybernetics core is delayed and you're still low on early game sentries + the sentries you currently have lack energy. You take your late expansion (maybe with difficulty?=> further delay Since you lack sentries and stalkers), and again you're going to need to add probably about 2 cannons just to ensure you have some amount of safety. But again, the expansion is delayed. To catch up - you need to do significant damage with the +1 zealots and you need to ensure you have enough sentry energy to keep your cannons alive + prevent runbys. Totally possible, but, again it's not a guarantee. Be aware when using this build - to some degree even if you're not supposedly 'all-inning' with units, you are going to need to do a great deal of economic damage to become even with the zerg. If you're alright with sacrificing early game sentries + safety vs zerg cheese, I actually feel your build is stronger off a Forge FE simply because there is no delayed expansion and I actually feel you're less economically behind and also the zergs defenses really dont differ a whole lot even if the attack is a full minute - 90 seconds later. Those +1 zealots are what actually stimulate any sort defense or reaction. Also forge fe opens up many transition windows unavailable to 1base gw+forge such as a really fast voidray, +3 colossus really quickly, +2 blink stalkers really quickly into a 3rd base off 5gw and other builds - too many to list. But remember, if you're attacking with +1 zealots you REALLY need to do some damage, or you're going to end up behind. | ||
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Connor987
United Kingdom103 Posts
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