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On September 23 2011 23:32 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 20:05 mattdevils wrote: So i'v been using this build for a few games and find it transitions well into Arcon, zealot. While doing the 5 zealot rush i throw up a stargate and build a couple voidrays to kill overlords and harass with directly after the zealot rush completes. during the void ray harass i take a third and teck to high temps and lay down about 10 gateways and max asap. I find that I was able to max out an army of 2-2 zealots and Arcons by around the 17 min mark which I thought was great.
The reason why i find it transitions so well is because after the zealot rush I was floating alot of gas. I may not be doing the build exactly as you layed it out though, i used the same concept. Great build. Could you share the replay with me? I really love Arcon/Zealot but have a very tough time teching to it safely without being overwhelmed by mass roach.
replay 1
replay 2 Keep in mind this is mid diamond. But enjoy.
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i can't open replays on this thread
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@WeaVerPrime: Right click the download link and select "Save Target As..." then specify the appropriate replay folder.
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An update as I tweak my build!
Whenever the Zerg doesn't commit to early Ling pressure, I've taken to putting the second Gateway on the low ground next to pylon #3. Here's a picture of the approximate setup - the two pylons should be further apart than I made them in this game though, in case of baneling busts.
![[image loading]](https://www.msu.edu/~worhatch/GatewayBelow.jpg)
Add on the CyCore, and this makes the wall that much easier to manage when Roach/Ling comes in.
Speaking of which, I've had some requests for a replay in such a situation. Here's a pretty recent one, where I hold with no economic losses despite losing three Zealots completely unnecessarily in the initial attack. I promptly squander my lead, though, with some terrible macro and bad engagement timings.
(download)
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On September 26 2011 11:15 Crow! wrote:An update as I tweak my build! Whenever the Zerg doesn't commit to early Ling pressure, I've taken to putting the second Gateway on the low ground next to pylon #3. Here's a picture of the approximate setup - the two pylons should be further apart than I made them in this game though, in case of baneling busts. ![[image loading]](https://www.msu.edu/~worhatch/GatewayBelow.jpg) Add on the CyCore, and this makes the wall that much easier to manage when Roach/Ling comes in. Speaking of which, I've had some requests for a replay in such a situation. Here's a pretty recent one, where I hold with no economic losses despite losing three Zealots completely unnecessarily in the initial attack. I promptly squander my lead, though, with some terrible macro and bad engagement timings. ( download)
What is the game timer in that screen shot? 6:06?
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It is 6:08. The exact time of my moveout varies depending on a lot of details (in particular, where chronoboosts go and how many lings are on the map early on). Expect something up to 15 seconds faster or slower than this, with the Nexus and CyCore being correspondingly slower or faster as a result.
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what do you do when the zerg just makes his few roaches, gets 2 base saturation and hurls roach/ling at you? You're not going to have enough forcefields to really do much against it; seems the smart play to me.
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That's the contents of the recently added replay, Arisen. I can hold, and the aggression leaves the Zerg behind economically.
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On September 26 2011 14:15 Crow! wrote: That's the contents of the recently added replay, Arisen. I can hold, and the aggression leaves the Zerg behind economically.
I watched the replay. The zerg controlled pretty poorly, losing most of his lings for free, and still did fairly well. I'm pretty convinced a that without the sentries, a really crisp and well controlled roach/ling would kill this build unless you droped a few mroe cannons (In which case the zerg could just back up and drone). In addition, AS's natural is pretty tight (and in your position, far away). I think maps like xelnaga would only help the zerg player (though maps that are super confined like nerazim crypt (i think that's the one with the wierd choke rocks) would help.
Also, sentries are pretty important to the integrity of a protoss midgame; I can't imagine feeling comfortable with such a low sentry opener. I think a build like this has value in a boX as a pretty odd rush that could catch people off, but I don't know if it could quite be a "standard" play in the current state of the game because of the delayed tech and sentry numbers.
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I also controlled terribly, and basically didn't macro at all thoughout the fight, floating 600 to 900 minerals throughout it. Sure, maybe his miscontrol was bigger than my miscontrol, but by so much that my having spent that money wouldn't have saved me? I think not. I'm high Diamond level and I'm playing against someone else at the same level, don't expect to see games where either of us doesn't make some significant mistakes. If you can whip up a replay of this situation with neither side making mistakes, please do so!
(Also, his lings cost effectively killed my first Immortal and the outermost cannon while tanking for the Roaches - is that really counted as a terrible miscontrol? Sure, the later ones were less effective, but it's not like they died without killing things, either...)
BTW, I do have early tech - in the form of absurdly early +1/+1 ground upgrades.
If you're a fan of Sentry based play you can add them instead of more conventional tech and have plenty for the midgame. I just don't like them, though, at least not on maps where I have to traverse so much wide open space to get to the opponent's base.
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I tried this build out, I think it's a great build but could certainly use some tweaking. I changed some orders though. I'm not sure if it's better, but I'm definitely going to start using it coupled with some tweaks.
For example, in my build I skip the 2nd gateway and go for a Cyber instead. I got a timing that let's you hit with 5 zealots and +1 attack at the same time when those 5 zealots are in front of their base. That let's me tech up to Immortals much faster that blind counters any roach play that he might be getting.
If he goes straight Roaches, just make sure you keep those 5 zealots alive and you can hit him with a Zealot/Stalker +2 Immortals army at an odd timing. It's highly likely too that Mutas won't be coming out any time soon since you're pressuring him and even if it did, you're already set up with 2 bases and could just pop cannons to defend the harass and add more stalkers to the army to deal with the Mutas.
Yes, this certainly confuses alot of Zergs, I'm not sure if the strength of this build comes from confusion. I don't think it does. It let's you pressure your opponent safer than a 3 gate expand and better too in my opinion.
If that 2 Immortal push doesn't kill him, it's easy to transition to Zealot/Immortal/Templar mix or the standard deathball. I usually go templars because I just love archons.
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On September 27 2011 03:56 Micks wrote: I tried this build out, I think it's a great build but could certainly use some tweaking. I changed some orders though. I'm not sure if it's better, but I'm definitely going to start using it coupled with some tweaks.
For example, in my build I skip the 2nd gateway and go for a Cyber instead. I got a timing that let's you hit with 5 zealots and +1 attack at the same time when those 5 zealots are in front of their base. That let's me tech up to Immortals much faster that blind counters any roach play that he might be getting.
If he goes straight Roaches, just make sure you keep those 5 zealots alive and you can hit him with a Zealot/Stalker +2 Immortals army at an odd timing. It's highly likely too that Mutas won't be coming out any time soon since you're pressuring him and even if it did, you're already set up with 2 bases and could just pop cannons to defend the harass and add more stalkers to the army to deal with the Mutas.
Yes, this certainly confuses alot of Zergs, I'm not sure if the strength of this build comes from confusion. I don't think it does. It let's you pressure your opponent safer than a 3 gate expand and better too in my opinion.
If that 2 Immortal push doesn't kill him, it's easy to transition to Zealot/Immortal/Templar mix or the standard deathball. I usually go templars because I just love archons.
That's interesting. Could you provide a replay? Appreciated. Well using OP's won every single PvZ (even when I was worse than my oponent, special tactics and dts helps alot), I lost to a super aggressive ling and roach play.
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I'll upload a couple once I get home about 7 hours from now. I'm still at work
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Tried this a few times last night on korean server @ diamond level.
Get's totally wrecked by fast roach - no way around this - unless it's something like shakuras, where you would want to forge FE anyway. (The zergs who were able to roach, opened pool first).
I still think the core idea of early zealot poking is very good. I would like to see if it's still possible to achieve similar timings from gate-forge-core - or gate, core, forge.
I hope there is a variant from standard gate-gas-core, that we can reactively throw down a forge vs hatch first, or speedling expand, when scouted by our probe.
I strongly think the OP's build is not favourable at all, against pool first.
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When you say fast Roach, are you talking about 5rr? Because if that's the case this would still work as you can build your cannon behind your forge, it would hard counter it and then you can play normally again.
If you're up against 2 base fast roach, that's the best response by Z in my opinion. It won't crush it if you positioned your cannons right and defend properly. Avoid losing Zealots as much as possible as they would be the key to your survival when lings come. You would be able to stall it until Stalkers come out. Once Stalkers are out it would be a 2base Z vs a 2base P. The roach timing off 2 bases comes out near the time your 5 +1 zealots are in front of his base. Roaches can't catch your Zealots off the creep. I think that's they key point there.
Around what time does the Roach attack come? You might be expanding a little bit early. What I do is to make sure that it's not a 1 base play by Z. Because if it is, then I'm gonna be forced to change it and probably just 4gate +1 attack him.
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On September 27 2011 07:03 Micks wrote: When you say fast Roach, are you talking about 5rr? Because if that's the case this would still work as you can build your cannon behind your forge, it would hard counter it and then you can play normally again.
If you're up against 2 base fast roach, that's the best response by Z in my opinion. It won't crush it if you positioned your cannons right and defend properly. Avoid losing Zealots as much as possible as they would be the key to your survival when lings come. You would be able to stall it until Stalkers come out. Once Stalkers are out it would be a 2base Z vs a 2base P. The roach timing off 2 bases comes out near the time your 5 +1 zealots are in front of his base. Roaches can't catch your Zealots off the creep. I think that's they key point there.
Around what time does the Roach attack come? You might be expanding a little bit early. What I do is to make sure that it's not a 1 base play by Z. Because if it is, then I'm gonna be forced to change it and probably just 4gate +1 attack him.
It's 2base - and with the specific build in the OP, you're left way behind going into the midgame - your scouting is delayed, you can't apply pressure, you have very few sentries (read: defense).
If you win from this position, you're either not using the OP's opening build, or the Zerg is being terrible.
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Yeah, I'm using a tweaked version of OP's build. I'm forcing him to go Roaches, and then blind counter with Immortals. Still tweaking it so it would be more efficient but basically it goes like this:
Gateway -> Forge -> +1 Attack -> Cyber -> Robo. All the time while that single gateway is producing Zealots. I'm trying to find out the best time on when's the earliest time I could put down the Nexus and the 2 additional Gateways for a timing push.
Edit: Using it at Masters at the moment and was able to beat a couple of GMs with it. I'm starting to love my PvZ matchup (I hated it before) after discovering this thread.
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On September 27 2011 08:25 Micks wrote: Yeah, I'm using a tweaked version of OP's build. I'm forcing him to go Roaches, and then blind counter with Immortals. Still tweaking it so it would be more efficient but basically it goes like this:
Gateway -> Forge -> +1 Attack -> Cyber -> Robo. All the time while that single gateway is producing Zealots. I'm trying to find out the best time on when's the earliest time I could put down the Nexus and the 2 additional Gateways for a timing push.
Edit: Using it at Masters at the moment and was able to beat a couple of GMs with it. I'm starting to love my PvZ matchup (I hated it before) after discovering this thread.
That sounds slightly safer than OP's. Will test - thanks.
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