|
On September 30 2011 02:36 Ballistixz wrote:
... if the toss walks a way then zerg can just drone up and get a 3rd if he wants. no reason not to do it.
I can think of a reason why not to take a third just yet: there's five +1 Zealots out on the map, with more tech and units coming up in the near future. Spines secure existing positions, they don't help much for expanding. (If you have Roaches AND Spines out this fast, Protoss is feeling great about the damage he's done to you without needing to actually kill anything).
Droning, on the other hand, is something you definitely can do. Protoss's job in this situation is to get his next timing attack ready for the time when Zerg doesn't want to delay his third any longer - meanwhile, the Spines sit at home, idle. In my experience, I think the post-early-Spine-Crawler situation is slightly in favor of the Protoss, though not by much if the map is one that allows a 2-Crawler defence.
|
On September 30 2011 02:47 Crow! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 02:36 Ballistixz wrote:
... if the toss walks a way then zerg can just drone up and get a 3rd if he wants. no reason not to do it. I can think of a reason why not to take a third just yet: there's five +1 Zealots out on the map, with more tech and units coming up in the near future. Spines secure existing positions, they don't help much for expanding. (If you have Roaches AND Spines out this fast, Protoss is feeling great about the damage he's done to you already). Droning, on the other hand, is something you definitely can do. Protoss's job in this situation is to get his next timing attack ready for the time when Zerg doesn't want to delay his third any longer - meanwhile, the Spines sit at home, idle. In my experience, I think the post-early-Spine-Crawler situation is slightly in favor of the Protoss, though not by much if the map is one that allows a 2-Crawler defence.
theres 5 +1 zealots on the map but there is also roaches from the initial pressure on the map to. do some good kiting and ur 3rd should be safe untill ur able to get some spines in that location. ive done it before. just get overlords out on the map and the watch towers to spot where the zealots are headed. if he is headed for ur 3rd move ur roaches to defend it untill its up and running. 5 zealots are not a threat to properly microed roaches that early in game. because of how the zerg macro machanic works, u will still be ahead in worker count even if u spend 6-7 larva on roaches. spending that much larva is trivial as well because once the 3rd is up ur larva production will shoot throuht the roof and the 3rd will be instantly saturated if ur good on ur injects. its honestly a small price to pay to defend that 3rd from the zealots because once your 3rd is up ur eco will easily shoot beyond that of toss.
i doubt toss will over commit to any kind of real atk considering he will be on 1-2 gates for awhile without warp gate tech.
|
I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying Zerg is doing. It's Roaches first now? Any defenses you make beyond 3-4 Roaches are just overkill and they let Protoss get ahead of you, so what are the Spines for? I was responding to you assuming your point was that Spine Crawlers were a good way to deflect the inital Zealots in lieu of Roaches; if you're not using Spines for that then we've been talking about different things so we'll get nowhere fast.
Roach deflection of the pressure is exactly what this build assumes (to the point where Micks prefers to just counter them blindly). Check out the various replays of that situation from myself and the Masters league players (who prefer a more tech focused version) and see how things work out in practice, so theorycraft can be avoided altogether.
|
On September 30 2011 03:24 Crow! wrote:
I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying Zerg is doing. It's Roaches first now? Any defenses you make beyond 3-4 Roaches are just overkill and they let Protoss get ahead of you, so what are the Spines for? I was responding to you assuming your point was that Spine Crawlers were a good way to deflect the inital Zealots in lieu of Roaches; if you're not using Spines for that then we've been talking about different things so we'll get nowhere fast.
Roach deflection of the pressure is exactly what this build assumes (to the point where Micks prefers to just counter them blindly). Check out the various replays of that situation from myself and the Masters league players (who prefer a more tech focused version) and see how things work out in practice, so theorycraft can be avoided altogether.
i was reffering to if the zerg went roaches as a reponse because i agreed they are better then lings in larva cost and efficiency to deal with the zealots. so im basing it off of roaches for right now.
the spines are there for added defense. its only 1 drone and 100 minerals for 1 spine. theres absolutly no reason.not to do it. the 3-4 roaches is also added MOBILE defense for the 3rd. u can add on a few more roaches if u need to in order to make sure your fast 3rd is safe from the zealots. once the 3rd is up u can always up root the spines from ur nat and move it to ur 3rd if u need to.
once the 3rd is up u will be ahead of of a 2 base toss. so no its not really over kill.
theres also the ling spine alternative to deal with it which was what i said initially. if u go this route and u dont do make a 3rd then it will lead into a nice hydra ling timing and the toss usually wont have colo tech in time and will just plain die. u can actually do the hydra ling timing even if u made roaches at the start because usually a toss will make immortals in response to the roaches
im not exactly sure what u dont understand about this tho.
|
I don't know what point you are trying to make. If you have perfect scouting information or know the build exactly and then produce exactly what you need to defend I guess it should be possible for Zerg to get ahead.
Of course it`s not an imba build, but I don't really see an easy hard counter.
|
This is a weak hybrid build. You may have 5 zealots out but upon scouting it you don't even need to do the standard IM Zerg FFE response where you drone hard making no units off 3 bases. You will easily have roaches out before your third and still be economically ahead.
|
On September 30 2011 04:23 00Visor wrote:
I don't know what point you are trying to make. If you have perfect scouting information or know the build exactly and then produce exactly what you need to defend I guess it should be possible for Zerg to get ahead.
Of course it`s not an imba build, but I don't really see an easy hard counter.
thats the point. the build it self is extremly perdicatable. when u see 5+ zealots all +1 u know exactly what the mindset of the protoss is. im speaking from a masters perspective here and this particular build i have encountered a number of times in the past, but now its rarely used because it doesnt really put that significant of a lead.
the build leads u open to roach hydra or ling hydra timings which usually kill the toss every time becaue the tosses natural response after going this particular build (from my experience) is immortals in order to blind counter roaches. its extremly predicatble. its not a bad build, but its not a uber good build either. zerg loose to it purely because of poor judgement and lack of scouting.
anyway my main point that im trying to make about this build is
A) its predictable
B) u can defend against it with relative ease
C) it doesnt put the zerg behind if the zerg has a clue on whats going on and has proper scouting using overseers/changelings.
|
Hi,
@ everyone saying it's predictable...
I don't build immortals unless there are roaches.
You're going to stay on lings vs +1 zealots? that's fine by me, no need for cannons. Warp prism coming to warp in at your 3rd
Played some more games last night, lost 2 to baneling cheese, but I think that was miss micro on my part.
Keep dying to muta's in mid game, but that is no change from any other opening I do. Starting to think that SG is a better than a Robo...... but only for the fact I'm scared of mutalisks.
Need to see if I can hit a timing where I can break a spined-up 2base Lair (infester/Muta). This is by no means the only solution, but as a player I see no way to deal with competent muta harassment + cross expanding, without already having a Stargate.
Talking to other protoss, and listening to STOG, it seems that this is a common issue anyway - if you're not already going stargate, or not already doing an all-in 2base timing. then you're going to slowly die to muta.
Edit: If I go against spined natural & Lair before 3rd, I will attempt to add gates, and Warp Prism into the main.
|
If mutas are killing you, you might want to try going the Templar path first. It gives you access to Blink, Archons, and HTs, all excellent for dealing with Mutalisks. Not to mention early +2 if you think you're in a good spot and can afford it.
|
i ALWAYS welcome stargate play because it makes my hydras that much more effective and that much more useful in the match up. there is litterally nothing the toss can do to stop it because he oppened star gate.
the best part is hydras are usually the last thing a toss will suspect and it usually catches them off guard from my experience. even more fun when u hide the hydra den in a corner of the map where a ovie is spreading creep somewhere.
|
The best strategies are ones that don't rely on surprising your opponent.
As I touched on before, if you drop the SG instead of a Robo, your next main decision should be 'how am I going to deal with hydralisks, if they come'
If you do confirm Hydras, your midgame plan should allow you to have a decent timely response to deal with small amounts of hydra/roach or hydra/ling, untill you can get collosus.
I believe either blink, or charge. I feel charge is risky - you need to somehow get surface area on the hydras, whether it's by a flank or whatever. Charge is obviously better against ling/hydra, and blink better against roach/hydra.
I have only dropped the SG a handful of times, and I haven't given much time to fleshing out a mid-game follow up for it. I am still leaning towards Robo, especially if I can sort out a mid-game push that will allow me to heavily pressure, or kill 2base muta.
|
On September 29 2011 23:26 00Visor wrote:I hope you don't mind if I write your beginning build order down: (Pylons throughout, chrono Nexus 2x) 9 Pylon -> Scout 13 Gate 15 Assimilator 17 Forge 18 Zealot ~22 start +1 when forge finishes, chrono 3x 22 Zealot 25 Zealot (chrono) 26 Core 29 Zealot (chrono) -> move out with 4 Zealots, +1 should finish shortly after 33 Warpgate + Robo 33 Zealot 35 Pylon (low ground) - you may throw down a 2nd assimilator around this time 36 Gate - Cannon on low ground around this time or delay if you feel safe 37 Immortal when Robo finishes (chrono) - if we scouted Roaches, else obs or warp prism ~42 Nexus (vs. roaches: proceed to warp in some sentries and zealots, move out with 2 immortals, get observer) The build order seems to fit really nice. How about using the forge and upgrading +1 armor so that it finishes right before the 2nd attack? (you started it after the 2nd attack)
Thanks for that, made me realise how un-crisp the opening still is! I feel sorry that you had to try and make notes off of it hahaha...
I will put some more effort into making the robo opening very clean and crisp. There is an extremely awkward moment (as you may have noticed) - that occurs as my zealots are walking to his base. (Do I drop nexus now? Do I wait to see what he has?) etc etc.
|
hi, brozerg(but i play toss offrace) here. nice build, nice write-up, i am acutally glad you post this. it is actually a quite good build similar to what ive been doing recently on ladder(as toss) which got me 100%winrate lately against FE or 14/14. and as a zerg player i considred thinking what could i do against these builds that hang around the idea of early zealot pressure on my expo. here's what i discovered:
I'd like to point out a couple weaknesses to your build(general ideas)
1.you have not considered fast pools. which you'll notice kinda rape this and are viable on every map cept for tal-darim(well 6-7 pool still does)
2.this particular gateway/forge is extremly weak to hydra/ling all-ins that are potentially developped from the 14/14 opening.
3. forces you to delay your tech giving any early pool an instant win to zerg.
having said that i need to clarify the early pools cause it is not known much yet. i think aXa made a post on this:
+ Show Spoiler +
9pool
10 ovy
10 6-lings
13 queen (+2drones)
15 queen
17extrator trick
18 ovy
when ovy pops a full round-o-drones + extractor
around 20 start expo + roach warren(to defend any zealot pressure as a payback)
etc.(you can do most likely anything from now)
this build basically will force your forge to be cancelled(or itll die) as the usual good response is 2 gate or extrachrono on zealots + probe pull. the main goal of this build is delaying tech while having scouting info + early expand + incredible early creepspread + having opportunity to make additional dmg like drones pickups.
I made this build to prevent any sort of this early zealot bullshit agression(ive got mad alot facing this on master league ladder dont take it personal, ive used it alot to test things out) whitout getting anywhere "behind" facing other builds.
I know there are ways to adjust(like not 13gate lolol) these types of builds to early pools but they wont be as effective but still viable.
ill post some replays of this when i have the opportunity to face this build. but start thinkin of adjustments now - its clear even without replays that this build wont be as good against early pool.
i didnt want to post this to discredit or anything. its verywell written and built up with good replay support. as zerg im giving you feedback on what this build lacks and you should take good note. and sorry for the english/typing mistakes; i speak french. gl on your ladder
|
Awesome guide! A quick question - If you scout the zerg expanding and he has no overlord to spot your probe, do you cannon him and delay the zealot push? Or just wait and attack him with the zealots.
|
IGN/HD starcraft cast some pretty interesting progames that is similar to this build, but starts with forge expand. Still includes a +1 zealot push followed by tech switch.
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
|
Anyone else been using this build? I just got owned on Nezarim, I think because I committed to the build and we were in far positions. My first wave did no damage (spines at nat and main) and I followed up with a zealot drop that killed a pool and spire but not many workers. Long story short he gets 24 mutas and I go blink stalker/archon but don't have enough and get slaughtered.
Any thoughts on how to switch tactics if we scout far positions?
|
I won GM player "ELVIS" with this build... just for a pro tip that this build is possible to polish so well that it really paids off.
Ofcourse i made my own twist for midgame but still the opening is good if you can use it right.
|
Almost forgot about this thread, my PC broke down and all my favorites got wiped out 
I was playing around with this build everytime I vs Z on the ladder. The only issue I've had with this so far are banelings. All other builds, I could react to nicely.
Hydras and I could keep pressure on with gateway units until I get Collos out or HT/DT/Archons.With him trying to defend with Hydras, that means he's delaying his 3rd.
Roaches and I could just keep those Immortals for an easy win.
Muta Ling and it would kill him before he gets a decent number of Mutas. Zealots>Lings
The only issues I'm having with it are 1 base plays or 2 base baneling plays. The rest, I could manage easily. With this build, it limits my BO losses to a few builds by Z that's not popular in the current meta game. I can honestly say I only lose with this build because I suck and haven't implemented it properly. It's not a weak build at all. You don't need to rely on surprises because Z can easily scout you. Once they scout you, it would probably be too late to switch to a 1 base play optimally. So they're forced with 2 base plays. And because that's the case, you'd only have issues with baneling plays.
Just my 2 cents.
|
And as for the spine crawlers you've mentioned earlier, if you get to build the spines before the zealots are in your natural, that would slow down your production a WHOLE lot. Less drones, less minerals = less economy. Especially since it's during the early stages. This would leave you economically behind and the zealots need not do damage to you because it had already been done by you making less drones and more defense.
If you build them so that it would be halfway done when the zealots arrive and try to delay as much as possible until they're done, then that's the best defense that would leave you at par or even ahead economically. That requires good micro from Z to pull off.
|
On October 06 2011 05:10 Micks wrote:Almost forgot about this thread, my PC broke down and all my favorites got wiped out I was playing around with this build everytime I vs Z on the ladder. The only issue I've had with this so far are banelings. All other builds, I could react to nicely. Hydras and I could keep pressure on with gateway units until I get Collos out or HT/DT/Archons.With him trying to defend with Hydras, that means he's delaying his 3rd. Roaches and I could just keep those Immortals for an easy win. Muta Ling and it would kill him before he gets a decent number of Mutas. Zealots>Lings The only issues I'm having with it are 1 base plays or 2 base baneling plays. The rest, I could manage easily. With this build, it limits my BO losses to a few builds by Z that's not popular in the current meta game. I can honestly say I only lose with this build because I suck and haven't implemented it properly. It's not a weak build at all. You don't need to rely on surprises because Z can easily scout you. Once they scout you, it would probably be too late to switch to a 1 base play optimally. So they're forced with 2 base plays. And because that's the case, you'd only have issues with baneling plays. Just my 2 cents.
Rofl I came back here to say that the only thing that crushes me is banelings too!.
Destroys your push, and you're left with no sentries (which is what you want vs banelings).
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
