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On September 29 2011 06:12 Crow! wrote:
The Spine + Queen block is map specific - if the natural isn't right next to the ramp the Spines either don't cover the mineral side of the Hatchery so you just kill it anyway, or they don't cover the ramp and you kill the Queen who gets cornered without creep behind her. Heck, even on the better maps you can still sac a couple Zealots to kill the Queen on the ramp even with the spines poking you, but that's a gamble - if he was already going for extra Queens anyway this doesn't kill larva and so isn't worth it (unless maybe if you're planning on Stargate play).
I actually haven't had trouble vs Spines on Shattered Temple before - check your replay again to see if you could have wrapped around to the back safely. Right now Shakuras Plateau is the only map I have mentally flagged as a place where Spines have to actually be respected, but it could be that I just just haven't encountered Spines placed both properly and punctually on some other maps yet.
Still, even when you do get shut down with static defenses, at least you know his resources didn't go into mobile units just yet so you can delay cannons up in favor of teching for more mobile defenses faster, which saves you money.
Let me go out on a limb here and suggest trying out a Carrier follow-up to the Stargate play if they "answer" it with Hydras. Hydras actually suck against Carriers really bad until Infestors are out to keep the Carriers from microing, and they still only succeed in trading evenly in that case only if there aren't Zealots heading toward them - and with this build we probably have a bunch more Zealots than usual for that purpose anyway!
If their answer to the Stargate wasn't Hydras, having your Colossi delayed isn't that problematic anyway.
I generally don't go after queens as he can micro away, I will try seeing if I can [H] in a mineral line. I do agree that shakuras is really good for spines, but I FFE anyway that map.
With respect to Carrier follow up, I will do some yabot on it, but I feel I won't have enough carriers (2 minutes to build 1 carrier) in time to deal with 10-15 hydralisks and either zerglings/roaches.
Also, another risk with Stargate, is you are promoting him to drone up behind spines/queens, because he knows you can't kill him (voids are horrible vs multiple queens). But this is usually always the case anyway with SG openings, not to mention you've invested in +1 ground attack, and your army now has air units...
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I'd post the replays I got from yesterday once I get home. Still at work pretending I'm busy XD
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@Trusty:
That Carrier choice is interesting. Do you think it's possible to hide that tech from him until you get around 2 or so and pressure with just a gateway mix? Probably means skipping Voids altogether.
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On September 29 2011 06:49 Micks wrote:
@Trusty:
That Carrier choice is interesting. Do you think it's possible to hide that tech from him until you get around 2 or so and pressure with just a gateway mix? Probably means skipping Voids altogether.
Yes but it would be map specific, and you're wide open to hydra all-ins. You need 1 voidray, it's the deterrent for aggression, and to deny OL scouting etc etc.
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Now that you say it, I think a Hydra play would probably hold this aggression coupled with a couple of spines for the 1st zealot push. Since if your opponent skips Roach and counters the Zealots with Hydras instead, that Immortal play would be negated due to Hydras being light. Are there any indications from Z base if you can only scout their main (since not having obs yet) that would tell you they're going Hydras? Because usually if I see a couple of spines, I'd usually read it as a muta play.
I'll probably check that out later.
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On September 29 2011 07:50 Micks wrote:
Now that you say it, I think a Hydra play would probably hold this aggression coupled with a couple of spines for the 1st zealot push. Since if your opponent skips Roach and counters the Zealots with Hydras instead, that Immortal play would be negated due to Hydras being light. Are there any indications from Z base if you can only scout their main (since not having obs yet) that would tell you they're going Hydras? Because usually if I see a couple of spines, I'd usually read it as a muta play.
I'll probably check that out later.
Don't ever blindly make immortals. He can't have hydra's out in time to stop your 4 zealots.
If you don't see any roaches with your zealots, don't make an immortal - get an obs or warp prism to see what he's doing.
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I stop making Immortals if I don't see Roach and see static defense. That makes me read my opponent as going Muta based play. I stop Immortal production by then since I know that they would be useless.
I guess I wasn't clear on my earlier post. What I meant was that, Collos would be too late to deal with a Hydra aggression and we know that gateway units just melt to Hydras. There's no alternate option for us during this time except for an Immortal which is kind of useless against them.
Are there indications that lets you assume that he's going Hydras instead of Mutas? Obs would be too late to see this for you to be able to prepare enough for it. And you don't have access yet to Collos or Archons. Aside from turtling at best with gateway units, I'd like to get a read of this play coming.
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I think the key difference is: I dont build an Immortal at all, unless I see a roach.
My first unit is a warp prism or an observer for scouting. If I see roaches then I have the option to cancel the WP/Obs to get an immortal.
If there is no roach, I can get into his base while the lair is morphing (or even before it starts).
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Getting in is risky because you could lose your entire army just trying to do it. I rarely engage his front without Immortals to deal with spines fast. And it's almost a 100% spines would be there if he's doing either mutas or hydras.
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On September 29 2011 11:44 Micks wrote:
Getting in is risky because you could lose your entire army just trying to do it. I rarely engage his front without Immortals to deal with spines fast. And it's almost a 100% spines would be there if he's doing either mutas or hydras.
Getting in with the observer.... not my army.
You sound like you go for a blind immortal pressure to follow up your 4 zealots, I tend to secure my expansion, quickly scout and react. (Not saying which is correct). Will upload reps in a few hours
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I just have to say again, that this kind of build innovating is EXACTLY what Protoss needs at this point. It should be the duty of all Protoss players to experiment with this build in their respective leagues and help contribute their 2 cents to hammer out the details and perfect what has been started here.
Many thanks to the OP as well as all the masters level players helping refine the build. I will be experimenting on my own as well but since I'm only a Platinum scrub at this point most of what I have to contribute won't exactly be game-changing....unless it is. =)
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I hope you don't mind if I write your beginning build order down: (Pylons throughout, chrono Nexus 2x)
9 Pylon -> Scout
13 Gate
15 Assimilator
17 Forge
18 Zealot
~22 start +1 when forge finishes, chrono 3x
22 Zealot
25 Zealot (chrono)
26 Core
29 Zealot (chrono) -> move out with 4 Zealots, +1 should finish shortly after
33 Warpgate + Robo
33 Zealot
35 Pylon (low ground)
- you may throw down a 2nd assimilator around this time
36 Gate
- Cannon on low ground around this time or delay if you feel safe
37 Immortal when Robo finishes (chrono) - if we scouted Roaches, else obs or warp prism
~42 Nexus
(vs. roaches: proceed to warp in some sentries and zealots, move out with 2 immortals, get observer)
The build order seems to fit really nice. How about using the forge and upgrading +1 armor so that it finishes right before the 2nd attack? (you started it after the 2nd attack)
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One major problem i see is your lack of gateways to apply mid game pressure, and your tech is somewhat delayed. So i really don't see this working to a zerg knows what you are doing.... However feel free to correct me.
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It is nice but obviously delays your tech.
Gotta remember this is not technically a game winning build, mearly a different start.
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On September 29 2011 23:54 TolEranceNA wrote:
One major problem i see is your lack of gateways to apply mid game pressure, and your tech is somewhat delayed. So i really don't see this working to a zerg knows what you are doing.... However feel free to correct me.
I don`t see how the tech is delayed compared to other openings like 3gate FE or Forge FE.
We are on one gateways for quite some time but since we have a forge we could build cannons for defence. Most Zergs go roach, so we can then apply pressure with Immortals + Gateway units.
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ive played against this build before. pretty much all u need is 2-3 spines and some lings and u will be fine against any early zealot pressure, and if it gets to be too much u can always bring both ur queens down to help defend without ever teching to roaches or speedlings. some maps u can even make a nice little wall with spines and evo chambers.
most zergs for w/e reason skip spine crawlers. theres no reason not to build spines. with enough spines u can honestly go pure drones and defend with slow lings only and a queen or 2. i usually make a 3rd queen after my natural is up for creep spread anyway. and beleive it or not but queens do decent DPS. supported by slow lings and spines ur relativly safe and free to drone up.
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Why would you not go roaches vs this... As a Zerg you should expect a Zealot Cannon Rush or +1 Timing anyways. It's easy and countering this would be simple. Make 4-5 roaches (low economy or not, you'll be on even footing at worst, ahead probably) and have 4-5 lings in the back just to go in the mineral line or delay cannons for the roach counter attack.
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Thanks for the replays, Trusty! I'm linking to them in the OP.
@Comment regarding not chasing queens: 90% of the time I agree with you, however, if the Queen is on the ramp she doesn't have Creep behind her and so won't be able to micro, so killing the Queen is at least an option there. Whether or not it's a smart option is another question and obviously situational.
@Ballistixz: while Spines are inexpensive larva-wise, spending that many minerals early enough to have enough Spines done in time to cover both the ramp and the back of your base when the Zealots arrive isn't trivial. It's doable, and on some maps it's easier than others, but the Protoss can just walk away knowing he's safe to power hard, putting him no worse than even with you when you hit the midgame and it comes time to expand.
@kineSiS: yeah, that's the basic Zerg strategy of most of my games that don't turn into free wins. I find I can hold, and it's not a terrible position for either player.
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while Spines are inexpensive larva-wise, spending that many minerals early enough to have enough Spines done in time to cover both the ramp and the back of your base when the Zealots arrive isn't trivial. It's doable, and on some maps it's easier than others, but the Protoss can just walk away knowing he's safe to power hard, putting him no worse than even with you when you hit the midgame and it comes time to expand.
doesnt matter. all u need is at the very least 2 spines if ur doing slow lings and 1 spine +3-4 roaches and no more then that. i agree that roaches are a better alternative tho then lings for zealots. as for the problem of it not getting done in time then its just a matter of building a spine in ur main as soon as ur pool is done and walking it down to ur nat once the creep is up. expensive yes it is that early in the game, but u will be safe to drone once all the defenses are ready to deal with the lots.
if the toss walks a way then zerg can just drone up and get a 3rd if he wants. no reason not to do it. zerg does not need to over react/over comit to this kind of pressure and the toss knows he doesnt need to over commit to the push.
u have to realize that toss will be still on 1 gate and no warp gate tech for awhile. there is no reason not to get a fast 3rd while he is trying to get his eco going.
as long as u have 3-4 roaches or even 5 roaches toss WILL NOT try to go for the kill with only 1 gate ways worth of zealots. this means that u spent only spent at most 6 larva (5 roaches +1 spine or u can skip the spine altogether if ur getting that many roaches really) and ur free to drone as much as u want.
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EPT
