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Micks
Philippines32 Posts
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n00dl
Germany2 Posts
i was messing around with some gate/forge/expand styles and didn't hit what i was looking for. i did some new arrangements: -buildings at the front of expand -sticking to 1 gateway first -faster core -try to cannon his exp it makes the build more flexible without loosing too much of "push power". i didnt what the reps so i'm not sure how many zeals u build with the second gate but i suppose that you could spend one more chrono on the first gate and you have roughly the same amount of zeals. and i start the first zeal before forge (u 2?). well as it turns out the first push with ~5 zeals comes at a really strange timing, mostly the z will either go masslings first, then i stick to my expand or he makes lots of drones and is in trouble to defend. didnt see roaches rush so far (maybe due to cannons at his exp?). lets see how the build evolves | ||
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wwJd)El_Mojjo
Sweden173 Posts
 I really like your build. Innovative people like you is what makes sc2 such a fun game to play. I'll try this for sure, but even if it doesn't turn out to work very well, I'll still appreciate the good work you've put down into it. It's always nice to read topics like this. So refreshing. ^^ EDIT: Ok, I've watched the replays now and I have a few thoughts... What do you do if zerg starts out with roaches, lets say 3-4 roaches and then goes heavy macro when he sees your cannon expand. No ling speed, no roach all-in, just 3 roach and double expand and then some more roach and speedlings before teching mass muta for example. Have you met someone who made only a few roaches early and not being aggressive with them? | ||
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mattdevils
Canada20 Posts
I had 23 probes 2 canons 2 zealots out with my nexus completed. and a 32 supply I don't know how this compared to anyone else or if Anyones hit anything better. lemme know. | ||
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Bwaaaa
Australia969 Posts
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Micks
Philippines32 Posts
Here's the replay. It's completely unrefined as you can see I had 800 minerals floating at the early stages. I played bad in the early part but you'd notice the effectiveness of that Immortal push. Still need to refine it though. I still don't know what build order to make it efficient. | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
Some notes: - You want +1 to finish as you leave your base. From the time your probe scouting is denied, you are in the dark, and for all your know he could have popped 12+ speedlings. It is possible for the Zerg to smash your zealot force, but we want to make it as larva inefficient for him as possible (1/0 zealots vs 0/0 lings is inefficient) - CB allocation So far: First 2 on nexus, 3 on forge, 1 on gate @ 80% +1 weapons. Leaves me with 4.75 zealots with +1 as a leave my base. Stock at least one CB while you are moving out to his base with your zealots - you will need it on your immortal if you scout roach aggression. - Against 1base Roach Rush (which you should scout with your probe, but we simulated probe dying) you have a hard time. You'll meet the roaches somewhere on the map with your zealots. Cut probes, Chrono your immortal, chrono your gates. Add 2 cannons at top of your ramp - sacrifice pylon wall at bottom. I think this is a glaring weakness to this opening - but with proper probe scouting you should easily sniff out the ultra fast 1-base version. - Your nexus is going to be later than a Sentry Expand. Mine is going down at 6:30 - 7:00 depending on the information I get with my 4 zealots. I delay my nexus till +1 is done, since my practice partner showed me how hard he can stomp my sentryless expand with blind-speedling production. - If you scout no roaches, the first unit out of your robo bay should be a chrono'd warp prism. It's got 100 sheilds now, it's great for scouting (can fly over queen with no damage). With this warp prism you should check for fast 3rd's and fast lair. Load up 2 zealots before you move out - fly over the ground-attack path (to pick up possible roach/ling timing). Clear towers on the way. Drop 1 zealot in the main/natural as you fly over them if the opening is there (+1 zealot deals quite nicely to a queen). - Attempting to start expanding before +1 done (or close to done) is just gambling. You will be fine most games, but when you come across an aggressive speedling player with good micro, he's going to stomp you. - Just because you have an early robo, doesn't mean you're not able to play reactively. If you scout no aggression with your warp prism, add gates, start +1 armour. I prefer to add a TC when +1 armour is nearly done, while being on 4-5 gates - apply pressure with immortal/gateway, and warp prism. The overall opening is essentially a 2gate robo, with a very late 2nd gate and an early forge. I am quite happy with my revisions on this opening so far, a few more things to try out in practice - then will be taking it to the ladder. Will post ladder replays when they come. | ||
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Crow!
United States150 Posts
Also, thanks Trusty / Micks! Constructive feedback from higher levels than myself is greatly appreciated. I'll link to a couple of your posts in the OP. Down here in Diamond league, having one and then two Zealots around the first photon cannon will always allow it to get constructed... I wonder if there is some other arrangement which can make defense of the cannon possible earlier on? Maybe on specific maps making the cannon next to a wall, or among the minerals, or using a probe or two to plug the wall-in long enough to bring the wall-zealot down to have better defensive coverage of the cannon? @ El_Mojjo: If Zerg makes the bare minimum of Roaches, in order for me to keep up I need to see that this is the case and not make additional cannons based on what my Zealots see as they dance with the Roaches between my base and his. If he devotes all his effort to economy instead of pressure I end up a bit behind in that regard but my tech / army will be notably better than his and I have a good shot at denying (or killing, if he went straight for it) the third. And since by this point my two bases are saturated anyway, we wind up even economically after all. If he fakes me out and I over- or under- make defenses, I either fall behind or I die - this is usually the core problem Zerg faces, and if playing that game means avoiding feeling like I have to do one of the various cheese-tastic tech-rushing options, that's a drawback I'm willing to accept. | ||
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Micks
Philippines32 Posts
I'll play with this for a while and simulate it with AI first to get good timings. Once that's done, I'll do practice sessions with one of my buddies (also Masters) to tweak it depending on the build. It's a really nice build and I could see a good potential with it as not only it let's you expand safely, but also put some pressure on the Z. I think of it as a counterpart of speedling expand for Z without the speed LOL. I also play Z btw. Zea | ||
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chaopow
United States556 Posts
Its very interesting and its something I've been thinking about and why people don't do this more often. I have seen some of this in PvP with a zealot canon rush, but rarely in PvZ. I actually like to go a 2gate zealot rush on close positions which is pretty much just Shattered temple now. If I see close positions Ill make a gate around 14ish after 9 scout. It has been pretty effective and most zerg players are really thrown off by this. I've beaten several masters zergs, and I myself am masters. I go to around 5 zealots transition to a couple stalkers and continue applying pressure while doing a 2gate robo expand. Funky builds like yours, or a 2gate can really throw off zerg players who are so used to standard long macro games. As long as its refined and thought out it can work, Cool build :D | ||
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
On September 28 2011 08:18 Crow! wrote: - nvm on this part of the post, I was responding to something last page that's already been resolved. Also, thanks Trusty / Micks! Constructive feedback from higher levels than myself is greatly appreciated. I'll link to a couple of your posts in the OP. Down here in Diamond league, having one and then two Zealots around the first photon cannon will always allow it to get constructed... I wonder if there is some other arrangement which can make defense of the cannon possible earlier on? Maybe on specific maps making the cannon next to a wall, or among the minerals, or using a probe or two to plug the wall-in long enough to bring the wall-zealot down to have better defensive coverage of the cannon? @ El_Mojjo: If Zerg makes the bare minimum of Roaches, in order for me to keep up I need to see that this is the case and not make additional cannons based on what my Zealots see as they dance with the Roaches between my base and his. If he devotes all his effort to economy instead of pressure I end up a bit behind in that regard but my tech / army will be notably better than his and I have a good shot at denying (or killing, if he went straight for it) the third. And since by this point my two bases are saturated anyway, we wind up even economically after all. If he fakes me out and I over- or under- make defenses, I either fall behind or I die - this is usually the core problem Zerg faces, and if playing that game means avoiding feeling like I have to do one of the various cheese-tastic tech-rushing options, that's a drawback I'm willing to accept. Hey Crow, In the build you state in the OP, you should be able to get the nexus up fine. I was referring to the modified version where we get a Core instead of a 2nd gate (since we won't have the zealot count at that specific point in time to defend speedling aggression). Benefits of a faster Core/Robo: - Immortals out to fight roach/ling, no need for zealot/cannon dancing to stall. Don't need 3 Cannons. - Faster follow up scouting (faster WP/obs). - Warpgates done much earlier - ready in time for the fastest of roach/ling all-ins. Drawbacks: - Slower nexus. Roughly 50 seconds slower at the moment. You can drop the nexus earlier with this build, but it's unsafe (don't have 2gateways up and running to defend). - 4 Zealot poke instead of 5. Note: Going through some of the reps, I'm at 32-36 probes (CB variations) just as my natural finishes - This is pretty nice as it means I'm close to minimum-saturation (16 on minerals) at each base. So it's not that big of a deal having the nexus a bit later. | ||
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Micks
Philippines32 Posts
Can you upload a replay of that build of yours where it was successful and when it got overrun by that speedling pressure? | ||
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Crow!
United States150 Posts
Anyway, I'll have to try out the faster CyCore style at some point - I do love Immortals. | ||
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shammythefox
United Kingdom286 Posts
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Micks
Philippines32 Posts
Shattered Temple Close Positions: He tried a roach build, which I scouted with my initial zealot push. He can't catch the Zealots off creep and once he got to my base I already had a couple of cannons and an Immortal to deal with it. I got to counter push and he was forced to make more units for defending and also some spine crawlers. Just a little bit of push then withdrew left me ahead since he can't drone up. Finished it with a standard death ball. Xel'Naga: Speedling pressure. Was hard keeping the nat stabilized enough but basically he can't face my Zealot pressure with speedlings as they just melt. It's not cost efficient money-wise or larvae-wise. It delayed his 3rd by a significant amount. When I got the DT out, he just can't expand. Was able to finish it with another deathball. Archon variation. Nerazim: 2 base muta with lots of spines. I did the same build order I was refining, obs was able to scout the spire at 70%. Since I couldn't push out without taking significant damage (spines, queens) I really couldn't put pressure on him. So I just decided to take a 3rd. When I saw the muta, just popped in a couple of cannons in each expansion and went for a twilight council (I had minimal number of stalkers still, had 4 gates already though). Went straight for blink stalkers to deny the harass and keep the muta number in count, also put a little pressure at his front. Once Archons were out, it's gg. This build will die to a well-executed 1 base play, or perhaps a baneling play (we haven't tested the baneling yet, will do tomorrow). But for other builds, it certainly is viable. I'm not saying it's a 100% win build, but it definitely is a good build. Another option here is to go fast Twilight Council to get a FAST +3 Attacks and I'm sure there's no easy way for Z to be able to deal with +3 Archons. | ||
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Mikelius
Germany517 Posts
On September 29 2011 03:40 Micks wrote: I just did a couple of practice sessions with a buddy of mine (top 8 zerg masters) and I told him exactly what build I was doing and to try to counter it except using a 1 base play. I can't upload the replays yet as I'm still at work slacking ^_^ Shattered Temple Close Positions: He tried a roach build, which I scouted with my initial zealot push. He can't catch the Zealots off creep and once he got to my base I already had a couple of cannons and an Immortal to deal with it. I got to counter push and he was forced to make more units for defending and also some spine crawlers. Just a little bit of push then withdrew left me ahead since he can't drone up. Finished it with a standard death ball. Xel'Naga: Speedling pressure. Was hard keeping the nat stabilized enough but basically he can't face my Zealot pressure with speedlings as they just melt. It's not cost efficient money-wise or larvae-wise. It delayed his 3rd by a significant amount. When I got the DT out, he just can't expand. Was able to finish it with another deathball. Archon variation. Nerazim: 2 base muta with lots of spines. I did the same build order I was refining, obs was able to scout the spire at 70%. Since I couldn't push out without taking significant damage (spines, queens) I really couldn't put pressure on him. So I just decided to take a 3rd. When I saw the muta, just popped in a couple of cannons in each expansion and went for a twilight council (I had minimal number of stalkers still, had 4 gates already though). Went straight for blink stalkers to deny the harass and keep the muta number in count, also put a little pressure at his front. Once Archons were out, it's gg. This build will die to a well-executed 1 base play, or perhaps a baneling play (we haven't tested the baneling yet, will do tomorrow). But for other builds, it certainly is viable. I'm not saying it's a 100% win build, but it definitely is a good build. Another option here is to go fast Twilight Council to get a FAST +3 Attacks and I'm sure there's no easy way for Z to be able to deal with +3 Archons. Could you please share some replays? This build keeps sounding better and better | ||
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Alsa
France10 Posts
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Trusty
New Zealand520 Posts
The best response I saw, was two spines on Shattered Temple + Queen blocking ramp. Shutdown the zealot pressure for 2 drones worth. Going to adjust build to bring a probe with my 4 zealots, and if he has spines, I will build a pylon inside his vision. For 100mins this has the chance to force a lot more spines/units. Requires him to not have an overlord in your base (so he can't see if you have WG done or not). Also the probe you escort with your 4 zealots, can go and hide after it's built the pylon. Most zergs I play are religious about scouting the entire map for my first initial probe scout - hopefully I can sneak this probe away during the time I have control of watch tower. I faced someone on X positions on Antiga, who went 18drone Roach/Ling All-in. It was very close, I ended up losing some probes, but I feel I could have held without probe loss in retrospect. The game ended up in a very weird state after this, but i felt happy in my ability to defend the hardcore roach-ling all in with this build. I also did a few games getting a stargate instead of a Robo. It's cheaper at shutting down roach/ling (1 VR), and gives you the ability to easily deny his 3rd. I won and lost a game with this build, both players reacting with a 2base roach/hydra timing (hydra timings are in-built to Zergs who see void rays). The follow up to opening Robo is quite easy (scout with obs/WP, make immortals, and zealots, go move around the map). The follow up with Stargate is not so easy to me - it's not like forge FE where you have 2base full saturation to instantly switch to Collosus. Maybe someone with more experience doing Stargate play can try/suggest some stuff - I hardly ever go Stargate in my PvZ. Will upload replays later. | ||
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Crow!
United States150 Posts
I actually haven't had trouble vs Spines on Shattered Temple before - check your replay again to see if you could have wrapped around to the back safely. Right now Shakuras Plateau is the only map I have mentally flagged as a place where Spines have to actually be respected, but it could be that I just just haven't encountered Spines placed both properly and punctually on some other maps yet. Still, even when you do get shut down with static defenses, at least you know his resources didn't go into mobile units just yet so you can delay cannons up in favor of teching for more mobile defenses faster, which saves you money. Let me go out on a limb here and suggest trying out a Carrier follow-up to the Stargate play if they "answer" it with Hydras. Hydras actually suck against Carriers really bad until Infestors are out to keep the Carriers from microing, and they still only succeed in trading evenly in that case only if there aren't Zealots heading toward them - and with this build we probably have a bunch more Zealots than usual for that purpose anyway! If their answer to the Stargate wasn't Hydras, having your Colossi delayed isn't that problematic anyway. | ||
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00Visor
4337 Posts
Looks really promising. I have struggled for some time to find a build that is quite safe, applies some pressure, doesnt get you behind economically and is not too hard to execute. | ||
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