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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
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Poo
Canada536 Posts
On September 23 2011 02:40 Connor987 wrote: @stealthypoo not sure if you understand the intentions of this build, look at the replays, hes always ahead on workers after the attack with an expansion. tryed it 3 times now, won once from a complete mis-reaction and outmacroed them by a long way in the other 2, im only platinum but it will, at the very least make zergs think more about their ZvP play I understand the intentions pretty clearly. I've used this style of build plenty off forge FE. You need to realize that Protoss is stuck on 1base with this build, while the zerg is on 2base (unless the 5 zealots manage to kill the nat hatch/prevent it from going up.) Hence I said forge fe is probably a better option so you are guaranteed to be on equal bases with no fast third. And if there's a fast third, there are many follow up options to kill/punish a fast third so the game is more economically balanced for both players. To your comment about even if zerg is behind on drones, zerg can quickly outproduce the protoss players worker count. The reason the zerg is able to do this is because zergs who 'think' as you say, will quickly realize the protoss needs to expo + tech after his pressure because he will be perpetually behind otherwise. How will they know this? Well theres a lack of sentries/stalkers so OL should be able to scout + it's pretty obvious if someone rushes +1 attack that their tech is delayed and that they're going to either go all-in or play very defensively for a period of time until they're in a comfortable position with 2 bases fully operational. | ||
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InvictusRage
United States230 Posts
On September 23 2011 04:11 Stealthypoo wrote: I understand the intentions pretty clearly. I've used this style of build plenty off forge FE. You need to realize that Protoss is stuck on 1base with this build, while the zerg is on 2base (unless the 5 zealots manage to kill the nat hatch/prevent it from going up.) Hence I said forge fe is probably a better option so you are guaranteed to be on equal bases with no fast third. And if there's a fast third, there are many follow up options to kill/punish a fast third so the game is more economically balanced for both players. To your comment about even if zerg is behind on drones, zerg can quickly outproduce the protoss players worker count. The reason the zerg is able to do this is because zergs who 'think' as you say, will quickly realize the protoss needs to expo + tech after his pressure because he will be perpetually behind otherwise. How will they know this? Well theres a lack of sentries/stalkers so OL should be able to scout + it's pretty obvious if someone rushes +1 attack that their tech is delayed and that they're going to either go all-in or play very defensively for a period of time until they're in a comfortable position with 2 bases fully operational. I guess I don't see how the build is stuck on one base. If they get the hatch down for hatch first, then the build is gateway-forge-nexus. If they don't, then your nexus is delayed until somewhere in the 20s of supply, but then so is the zerg's. Now maybe you want to say that the build as it is presented does not work for one reason or another, but it is explicitly the case that the build as presented is not 'stuck on one base'. | ||
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Poo
Canada536 Posts
On September 23 2011 05:01 InvictusRage wrote: I guess I don't see how the build is stuck on one base. If they get the hatch down for hatch first, then the build is gateway-forge-nexus. If they don't, then your nexus is delayed until somewhere in the 20s of supply, but then so is the zerg's. Now maybe you want to say that the build as it is presented does not work for one reason or another, but it is explicitly the case that the build as presented is not 'stuck on one base'. The build is stuck on one base because in most situations zergs will stop the zealot pressure and retain a number of units - or they may make too many units. You will not have warp gate tech very quickly, hence it's easy to delay/prevent the expo by protoss with the use of speedlings or roaches. Hence I don't think its viable in most situations. If i were going to use this build, hatch first would be the situation to do it - probably with a cannon rush as the op mentioned. Otherwise the zerg will still have many units and make it tough to expo while they retain the hatch unless you somehow kill it. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
and you can play normally like a 2 gate forge expand except with faster nexus and faster upgrade. the zealot pressure should be an option, not a requirement of the build. because in some cases its better to expand. maybe choose between full out attacking with zlots and sending one zlot to scout without dying to a ling. | ||
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MiKTeX
United States234 Posts
like its not funny how badly zerglings lose vs them that is all | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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ins(out)side
220 Posts
I think with some refinement this build can be a serious contribution to the meta game. Nicely done! Keep up the good fight as Protoss is definitely in a slump right now (MC out of Code A, WTF?) | ||
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Defeat
United States476 Posts
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ChineseWife
United States373 Posts
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drooL
United Kingdom2108 Posts
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mattdevils
Canada20 Posts
The reason why i find it transitions so well is because after the zealot rush I was floating alot of gas. I may not be doing the build exactly as you layed it out though, i used the same concept. Great build. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
Otherwise I don't think it's a bad build. Funny how from my Zerg point of view anything in PvZ that isn't standard is better than the standard. The day when Protoss stop doing the same 2 builds I'll be very sad. | ||
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MetalLobster
Canada532 Posts
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TolEranceNA
Canada434 Posts
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Mikelius
Germany517 Posts
On September 23 2011 20:05 mattdevils wrote: So i'v been using this build for a few games and find it transitions well into Arcon, zealot. While doing the 5 zealot rush i throw up a stargate and build a couple voidrays to kill overlords and harass with directly after the zealot rush completes. during the void ray harass i take a third and teck to high temps and lay down about 10 gateways and max asap. I find that I was able to max out an army of 2-2 zealots and Arcons by around the 17 min mark which I thought was great. The reason why i find it transitions so well is because after the zealot rush I was floating alot of gas. I may not be doing the build exactly as you layed it out though, i used the same concept. Great build. Could you share the replay with me? I really love Arcon/Zealot but have a very tough time teching to it safely without being overwhelmed by mass roach. | ||
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
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CrAzEdMiKe
Canada151 Posts
I'm a bit believer in stargate vs Zerg... So I am of course biased in this regard, but I like that this build essentially forces the Zerg down a path, and if you follow up with Void rays it forces them to do a little more (make spores, extra queens, possibly tech to hydras). Either way, I can see it giving a very healthy economic lead. | ||
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Crow!
United States150 Posts
Look at it this way: compared to a 3gate Sentry expand that moves down the ramp with let's say 4 Sentries (which I think is pretty early, I don't do that build much though), I'm putting down my Nexus before getting: 1 gateway, 1 cycore, 4 Sentries, 1 assimilator, and warpgate tech (total: 1025 resources, 650 of which is gas). However, I'm also making 1 forge, 4 more Zealots, one Cannon, +1 Weapons (total: 900 resources, only 100 of which is gas). So I'm putting my Nexus down slightly earlier than that standard, and my army isn't required to stay at home until the Nexus is up / enough energy builds up like the Sentries are. @MilesTag: I agree, and I think my 7-1 record against banelings is more representative of my greater experience with the situation than my opponents rather than it being a build order win for me. At the same time, I think I could have controlled better and made better decisions, also. The baneling bust is imo a very even matchup for this build, and let me tell you it leads to some of the most fun matches I've ever played. @CrazedMike: Check out the Carrier replay, your idea is more or less what I do there. Although, both of us make some significant errrors in the game (we are Diamond league, after all) which makes it hard to be sure how safe the transition to Stargate tech is. I say this because suddenly gathering enough gas to support Stargate production is harder than for Robo, and the switch has to be made at a time when we're at our blindest. For instance, I'm not convinced I would have held that game if the opponent committed a lot of lings along with the Roaches just before my Void Rays popped, whereas when I add on Robo I still have plenty of production going on as it comes online. It's certainly doable, and it's probaby even better for the long run, but I have the distinct feeling it's the cheesier choice in terms of staying alive. | ||
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CrAzEdMiKe
Canada151 Posts
I do agree that Robo definitely feels a lot smoother to transition to as opposed to Stargate... But I think you would have to delay it a little (not immediately rush to it) and maybe get 1-2 more gates before making a Stargate... That buys you plenty of time to get more ground units to try and hold a counterattack (plus getting more gates helps the walloff more quickly). During that time, you take your second and third geyser and then you move on to the Stargate tech. As said, a properly responding Zerg player is going to make Roaches to fend off the Zealots, because if he doesn't he will basically sustain a fair amount of damage. So if he makes Roaches, he's sunk at least a fair bit of gas to get those Roaches ready, delaying the Lair tech which means delaying the Stargate is just fine. If he doesn't make roaches then he is basically going to take some damage in which case again, Lair tech will be somewhat delayed... Giving you a solid economic platform to take off from there. Once you both get some breathing room, going for one or maybe even two Stargates could be feasible. You could either try and go Voids to try and deny their third, or you could quickly mass up about 4-6 Phoenix (more if you're comfortable) and harass them. I personally prefer the Phoenix route, as they are super quick to build and easier to manage economy wise. Besides, sniping overlords when a Zerg has gone Roach can be incredibly crucial. I personally almost never worry about drones when using Phoenix unless I have a really decent cloud of them... I pretty much try and snipe as many queens and overlords as possible. If you make a Void ray at the end to basically stay at home as part of the defense, it's incredibly hard for the Zerg to A) Counterattack without you knowing as you should have a decent idea of where their units are, as well as keeping Overlords away from your base so that there are no Nydus shenanigans, and B) you can then use that Void Ray to try and work on that third base if it's possible. I'm a big believer in Phoenix against Zerg, but Hydras are so good en masse against them that it's difficult sometimes. In my PvZs I tend to transition out of Phoenix into chargelot/Archon, coupled with Void Ray support. It's an incredibly powerful army composition that may need to be explored. Plus, believe it or not Phoenix are actually semi decent vs Infestors as you can easily swing back and hold the Infestor for either your Phoenix to kill them, or your army when it mows through the Zerg front line. I'm going to work out the build order until I'm comfortable and happy with it... But this type of strategy has a lot of potential, and I really like the feel of the "Gasless Protoss" as it's something I've been trying to figure out how to do for a long time, as both Terran and Zerg have gasless approaches towards fast expanding, but Protoss options are very limited... I feel this may be one of the stronger ways of approaching that idea, but naturally you pretty much will always need the 100 gas no matter how you look at it. | ||
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