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Gateway Forge PvZ
![[image loading]](https://www.msu.edu/~worhatch/TripleTake.jpg)
This is the third time the Zerg has returned his camera here to confirm that I did, in fact, start Gateway-Forge in the one-base position. Terribly confused, he assumes I'm turtling hard and tries to double expand, so he dies. About 50% of my PvZ games are free wins from the Zerg being faced with an unusual situation and making the wrong decision on the fly. I continue onward to win I estimate 70% of my games where the Zerg does respond sensibly.
Update: Masters level players' inputs and modifications can be found here!
Mick's preference for faster Robo
Trusty's very detailed notes on a version with only one gateway
Trusty's replays (the build order used is compiled by Micks two posts down the line)
Thanks, guys!
Disclaimer:
I'm a high level Diamond league Protoss player. It is therefore impossible for me to guarantee that this build works at any higher level than that. Still, I see no reason why it shouldn't.
+ Show Spoiler +Incidentally, in the interim between my writing this and my posting it, I tuned in to the middle of a tournament game where it looks like Kiwikaki did a build similar in principle to this one. I think he had opened with a FFE, though, based on his building positions. Importantly, his +1 Weapons kicked in about 90 seconds later than mine does, so that his opponent had so many Roaches up that when a handful of Zerglings blocked the ~9 Zealots' retreat path the Roaches did entirely too much damage to them; Kiwikaki then transitioned into a cheesy Void Ray play which got smashed because apparently that's what he did the last game too.
Introduction:
This build is a response to my frustration with the cheesy feeling I had with all the standard PvZ openings; it felt like if Zerg either scouted or just correctly guessed what I was up to I would quickly fall behind, essentially because because everything I could do was such a big commitment. + Show Spoiler +I have some respect for the 3-gate Sentry-expand openings, but those still hinge on the fact that just Zerg doesn't know whether your force that is moving across the map is going to commit to the attack or not - if he guesses correctly and either makes all units or all drones, you're going to be way behind, so the Sentries are still sort of cheesy even though there isn't anything that the Zerg could have scouted to get the data they needed to build-order-counter you.
My goal here is to get up my expansion safely behind a +1 Weapons Zealot pressure which can run away with no losses if Roaches are up, but deals good damage if Roaches are not ready. Barring any bad decisions or unit miscontrols, I always emerge into the midgame at least even with the Zerg.
Be warned, this build, despite being the safest, least commital thing I know of that Protoss can do, will result in some players getting very mad at you for "cheesing" them if they misread your opening and so die outright to the pressure. + Show Spoiler +Even though they could have had a Drone in your base watching all of your not-at-all-hidden buildings throughout your opener, so apparently they elected to be super cheesy by favoring 1 more worker over having perfect scouting data.
The Build Order: What to do before your scout arrives
9 Pylon in the 1-base position
+ Scout
Chronoboost probes 2x
12 or 13 Gateway
~14 Assimilator
~16 Pylon
~17 Forge in the usual 1-base CyCore position
Note on Gateway timing: + Show Spoiler +this build is not so lean that it requires the 13-gate to function. The main effect of a 12-gateway is that the expansion will be up a few seconds later. If your opponent's chat, name, or reputation suggests a very early pool could be incoming, a 12-gate is fine.
Note on Forge timing: + Show Spoiler +You want the forge to be placed at around the same time as you put guys in gas; this way you will have your 100 gas mined in time to start the +1 weapons at around the time the forge finishes.
Note on Assimilator timing: + Show Spoiler +I'm starting to think that getting some extra minerals early on is worth delaying my attack a little bit by getting an Assimilator on 15 or even 16; you'll see this in some of my more recent replays.
The Scout:
After identifying the Zerg location and checking for incoming cheese (which you can 66% of the time deal with in the usual fashion for an "easy" win; you did 9-scout after all), the top priority is to block an early hatch with your probe if you can. A hatch-first that immediately techs into Roaches is the only thing I've seen that should leave Zerg even with you economically when the dust settles, so if you take even that option away that's cool. I've not tried pylon blocking, but I think it would delay our attack too much.
Once it's clear no hatch-first is coming, or if you failed to block it, or if they pulled multiple drones to secure the hatch-first at a cost, re-check what they're up to in the main and respond accordingly.
Extractor-First Spotted:
You just won the game.
Well, not quite, but this is the easiest path toward victory. Extractor first is way too early to be efficient for Roach based builds, so there's either Speedlings coming or a less-efficient-than-usual Roach build coming, and either one puts you in a great spot. Continue the build as follows:
Continuation of the Build in the Ideal Case:
1 more Probe chronoboost
18 Zealot
22 Gateway
@100 gas: stop mining gas, start +1 Weapons
Until expo up: chronoboost Forge up to 2x (redirect to gateway if needed)
3rd Pylon below ramp*
Constant Zealot production until you have 5
@ 22 workers mining: next 3 workers rallied back to gas.
Add a cannon and defend it with all but 1 Zealot (last one blocks entry to base) **
@ 400 minerals: Nexus
@ 5 Zealots: attack Zerg base. +1 Weapons should be done any second now.
Follow up with CyCore at ramp, at least one cannon if you didn't make one earlier, and do some combination of turtling and teching (don't forget +1 Armor!) depending on what your Zealots scout during the attack.
* Do not build Pylon #3 flush with the ramp, that makes it harder for your Zealots to protect it, and on some maps it also prevents you from putting a photon cannon at a good location to defend your mineral line from both Lings and Roaches at once. Your Cybernetics Core will be the wall at the ramp; make sure your Pylon and Cannon placements let you do so.
![[image loading]](https://www.msu.edu/~worhatch/ProtectCannon.jpg)
Protecting this Pylon and the first Cannon while keeping lings out of your base is the one scary part of this build vs Speedling openers, but I've never had a complete failure in this regard.
** If you scout that the Zerg skipped lings altogether, you can delay this Cannon until after the Nexus.
The Attack:
If you have enough scouting data that you can send all 5 Zealots safely, do it. Otherwise, send 4 and keep 1 blocking the entrance to the main, or send all 5 but leave a probe or two on hold position in the Zealot's usual position until the Gateway's next Zealot comes out.
When you arrive, if Roaches have been made, don't commit. This is what Zerg should be doing in response to your not-at-all-concealed build. Roaches should in theory never die to Zealots on creep. But the Roaches can't chase down Zealots off creep, either, so you shouldn't lose any Zealots unless he throws away a lot of lings to stop your Zealots (in which case you're coming out fine anyway). Make Cannon #2 at home if you didn't already.
Congratulations, you just made Zerg tech to Roaches without losing any units or Pylons and you have an expansion! You're now ready for the midgame. + Show Spoiler +What's this, you say? Now there's Roaches coming after your base? Zealot+Cannon actually does fine vs Roaches; the Cannons mean the Roaches can't kite the Zealots for free, and the Zealots mean the Roaches can't just walk past the Cannons or even attack them without getting pummeled. Even if you slowly lose ground from suboptimal Cannon placement, soon it'll be Zealot+Stalker+Cannon or even Immortal+Zealot+Cannon. If he goes all-in, you should come out way ahead unless you miscontrol.
![[image loading]](https://www.msu.edu/~worhatch/DontWorry.jpg)
Stay calm, you can hold this with no economic damage.
Robo tech is probably a good transition regardless - you know Immortals are going to have at least a few good targets.
The strategies I describe next are largely the same as those of a cheesy 2-gate, only in our case we can actually fight Zerglings cost effectively, and we have much more infrastructure than usual to fall back on afterward. I'm keeping this in spoiler tags so those players who actually have good experience 2-gating Zergs and know what to do can skip it.
+ Show Spoiler +
If he's massing Speedlings as his answer to your Zealots, just make sure your Zealots stay together. Try to get to the Hatchery if there's no Spine Crawler and hold position; the extra wall provided by the Hatchery keeps the Zerglings from surrounding you and now removing your Zealots is only going to happen at an extreme cost for the Zerg. Even if he surrounds you before you get your back to a wall, the +1 Weapons means that you're killing a satisfactory number of lings. Remember, every two lings killed is effectively a drone.
If he never showed Roaches at all, I prefer the Twilight Council tech path. Infestors and Mutas seem fairly likely here, so having Blink and High Templars just one more investment away is nice. Also, this lets you continue upgrade production with your Forge.
If there are Spine Crawlers completed, make a judgement call. Often you can just walk past them and go into the main, but this could get you trapped if Roaches are about to pop. Sometimes you can kill the Spines if they're either incomplete or too few in number. If there's an excess of them being made / completed, stick around to ensure they don't get canceled and be content that Zerg just spent a lot of resources on static defenses so you can power hard at home.
If you can surround a Queen or catch it off creep (some Zergs try to block the ramp like it's ZvZ) then kill it. Otherwise, only ever chase after it with one Zealot, and only do that if the Queen is standing as the only defense between you and killing the Hatchery.
Try to avoid getting surrounded by Drones, and definitely don't waste your time chasing after those speedy things. Yes, killing the Drones would be nice, but they're actually not as much worse than lings vs weapons upgraded Zealots as you'd think because the Zealots still take 3 attacks to kill one.
12-15 Pool with Delayed Gas Spotted:
Zerg has a lot of flexibility here; he could still be getting delayed Speedlings if he doesn't know how huge +1 weapons is in Zergling vs Zealot, or if he denied your scout before putting down any gas at all he could I suppose be going Spanishiwa style (which I have no experience against, unfortunately). Most likely there's going to be Roaches, though.
If you didn't scout the Hatchery getting placed, sneak in a second scouting probe if you can. If a pure cheese 1-base all-in is incoming, you want to have the appropriate number of cannons up.
We still want to go forward with the Zealot pressure because, again, the Zealots will never die to the Roaches off creep, we need to make sure Zerg isn't playing too greedily (just kill him if he is), and we need to know what Zerg is up to anyway. At home, respond to what your Zealots force the Zerg to show you.
Whatever the case, when all is said and done you should either be slightly ahead of Zerg or else Zerg should have taken some damage from the Zealots.
Hatchery First Spotted:
If you failed to delay the Hatchery, you have a decision to make. If you're feeling cheesy, you can try a Zealot + Cannon rush, or you can proceed like the above two cases and just be aware that if he goes straight for Roaches like he should he'll be ahead of you economically.
The stable option is to throw down your Nexus before Gateway #2 or even before your first Zealot; you are now transposing into a less turtle-y version of a Forge Fast Expand opening. The usual bane of FFE, the Zerg "power super hard because lol Protoss can't make units for forever" doesn't apply here; if Zerg tries this then when you execute your delayed version of your attack you will deal significant damage.
Keep your scout alive for as long as you can. You might be able to skip making a Cannon for quite some time.
Anyway, you still want to move out once your 5 Zealots finally complete. Zerg should be rushing for Roaches upon scouting your +1 Weapons, but if he doesn't and chooses to power hard instead, you need to punish him or else he'll get out of control, because that's just what Zerg does.
Point is, unless Zerg does something crazy that you can in principle scout and punish, you should come out pretty even with him economically.
Maps:
+ Show Spoiler +I have Tal-Dariim Altar, Backwater Gulch, and Searing Crater downvoted. The slower scouting and slower Zealot walk time on Tal-Dariim are both bad news for this build - the Zerg can make one more round of drones before Roaches need to be up, so he comes out slightly ahead of you rather than even or slightly behind. Backwater Gulch and Searing Crater are hard because cannons have a hard time defending your main and your natural simultaneously.
Appendix A: Baneling Bust
+ Show Spoiler +Some Zergs see an unusual Cannon + Zealot based defense and realize that Banelings are pretty decent at killing both of those. I've only died to this once out of ~8 encounters, though. Your attack at the beginning should force his hand, and once you see that mass lings are coming you can add more cannons (spread out to defend the whole natural, rather than all at the front like vs Roaches) then even when he breaks your wall he won't be sufficiently cost effective at killing workers so long as your control is solid.
Appendix B: Muta Transition
+ Show Spoiler +Maybe this is just a result of my liking Immortals too much, or my hating Stalkers too much, but when I face Roaches with this build I often get tempted to have precious few of the worst-ground-unit-at-straight-up-fights-in-the-game, the Stalker. (Seriously, if a Stalker doesn't run away, WORKERS kill it cost effectively.) This, compounded with my early game featuring primarily Zealots, sometimes means that I get caught with insufficient AA if Mutas come. So either get an Observer early-ish (as you move out with a 1 or 2 Immortal, +1/+1 timing attack is good) and look for a Spire, or just grin and bear the embarassment of having Stalkers in your basic unit composition.
REPLAYS:
Getting good replays for this build is actually pretty hard because Zerg players get so confused when they see Gateway+Forge. An alarmingly large percentage will do something stupid that either fails utterly or makes them lose a Hatchery. The rest will make some grievous error in the midgame (expanding when not safe due to underestimating my super fast +1/+1, teching but controlling the tech badly, botching macro...).
Master's level games!
Trusty's replays
One replay by Micks
Added from popular demand! Pvz Gateway Forge vs Roach Ling All-In (download)
Be warned, I ultimately lose this game due to horrendous macro, but notice that I hold the all-in with no economic damage whatsoever, even after throwing away 3 Zealots for nothing and floating 800 minerals during the fight.
PvZ Gateway Forge vs Roach 2 (download)
+ Show Spoiler +The most "typical" game I've played in a long time. He counter attacks me after my initial attack, but doesn't deal economic damage before I get an Immortal out. He could have microed better (he blames his cat at the end), and I could have macroed better, but what this game really shows is that you can hold the Roach counter attack (it wasn't even close), and that if the Zerg commits to an attack and fails you come out far in the lead.
My biggest mistake is forgetting to start Warpgate research until awfully late; I generally intend to do it when I put guys in my second gas, but at that point I was still focused on killing the Roaches and I forgot to get back to it for too long.
PvZ Gateway Forge vs Speedlings 2 (download)
Check out the first Zergling vs Zealot engagement: any Zerg worth his weight should have the instinct that as long as I'm not near the wall, this many lings should smash the Zealots and leave my base open for immediate attack.
![[image loading]](https://www.msu.edu/~worhatch/Surprise.jpg)
In a unit tester, I find this same engagement normally would have left Zerg with 10 lings to spare. But instead, +1 Weapons makes me come out with 4 of my 5 Zealots still alive. That's a big difference, and it completely wrecks his game plan.
+ Show Spoiler +I proceed to get supply blocked at the point when I intend to move out with my Blink timing push, while he fails to push an advantage while he has it before my Storm research finishes. Point is, I hit the midgame way in the lead as I generally do vs Speedling openers.
PvZ Gateway Forge vs Hatch First Spine Crawler (download)
+ Show Spoiler +This is what happens on most maps if they try to defend the Zealots with Spine Crawlers. I know Roaches aren't coming anytime soon because he went Hatch first and made Spine Crawlers so early.
PvZ Gateway Forge vs Baneling Bust (download)
+ Show Spoiler +This is a typical game for when they go with Banelings. I could have split my Zealots better on multiple occasions, but I still came out pretty well.
PvZ Gateway Forge vs Speedlings (download)
+ Show Spoiler +This game was a little strange, as he had Zerglings denying my ability to put down a Nexus but not in position to see that I'm moving out with my Zealots. He loses his Hatchery and so is unable to spend his money.
What should have happened here is he would make a lot of Zerglings upon seeing me leave the base and then surround and engage me as I hit the Creep. This would result in him losing almost all his lings while allowing me to get my expansion up earlier, putting him economically behind me, but at least he wouldn't have lost the game outright.
PvZ Roach vs Zealot into Carriers vs Hydras (download)
+ Show Spoiler +This is actually a Funday Monday submission - no Stalkers is the rule, so I need Stargates to protect against possible Mutalisk transitions. He fails to cancel a Hatch I deny early on (even accidentally speeding me up in killing it), then I miscontrol my air units.
My point here is that Stargate tech is a doable transition for this build - you certainly don't HAVE to go for Carrier silliness, though if they have Roaches out they'll probably go Hydras as their answer to the Void Rays, so Carriers actually make a lot of sense.
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Solid Guide. Going to check out the Replays tomorrow, but every build that has an early expansion _and_ early aggression is great for the evolution of this matchup.
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Master protoss here, I use a similar strategy not as all in. Works great so this probably works too. Good guide.
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You sir are a scholar and a gentleman. I, as a Zerg, wholeheartedly applaud your attempts to do something other than fast expand, because us Zergs were getting bored of knowing how to play against it and just winning because of it (I KID OF COURSE). Thank you for using the ungodly potency of zealots (when actually allowed to hit things) and a bunch of creativity to make a build that's likely to shit on my day at least once in the coming week.
However!
There's nothing at all to stop any decent zerg from scouting your base 100% of the time (as you mentioned) not only because of how damn slow zealots are, but also because you've got nothing to prevent hovering overlords from monitoring your production, save for dem photon cannons, which can't actually move. I can see this being problematic when people stop being fully confused by this build, and start amassing a ton of drones behind strange evo chamber + spine crawler wall-offs (:D) or other equally bizarre, but effective things.
I'm also curious how well this might fare against speedling runbys in the early game, as fully exposed cannons don't last too long against speedlings, and not-even-warped-in zealots move about as fast as overlords, so would hardly arrive to shake their old-man sticks at the zerglings before massive damage was dealt.
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^Good point Staboteur
I really like the quick +1 attack, I was planning on incorporating it myself. I'll definately give it a try. I was wondering how this works on Tal darim, with it being so big it seems like erg would have plenty of time to shut this down.
Also how would this fair against roach-ling all in without making a million cannons? You are really put behind on sentries.
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On September 22 2011 08:09 Staboteur wrote:
You sir are a scholar and a gentleman. I, as a Zerg, wholeheartedly applaud your attempts to do something other than fast expand, because us Zergs were getting bored of knowing how to play against it and just winning because of it (I KID OF COURSE). Thank you for using the ungodly potency of zealots (when actually allowed to hit things) and a bunch of creativity to make a build that's likely to shit on my day at least once in the coming week.
However!
There's nothing at all to stop any decent zerg from scouting your base 100% of the time (as you mentioned) not only because of how damn slow zealots are, but also because you've got nothing to prevent hovering overlords from monitoring your production, save for dem photon cannons, which can't actually move. I can see this being problematic when people stop being fully confused by this build, and start amassing a ton of drones behind strange evo chamber + spine crawler wall-offs (:D) or other equally bizarre, but effective things.
I'm also curious how well this might fare against speedling runbys in the early game, as fully exposed cannons don't last too long against speedlings, and not-even-warped-in zealots move about as fast as overlords, so would hardly arrive to shake their old-man sticks at the zerglings before massive damage was dealt.
Thanks for the feedback!
It is true that the Zerg gets 100% scouting data until stalkers are up, which is very late. However, until this point I'm not committing to a tech path anyway, so I'm not that worried about it. If the drone goes unseen for too long, I go make sure it didn't try to make a Hatchery (just cancel it with 2 Zealots if he does).
As for speedlings, I find I'm already ~50% of the way toward the opponent's base at about the time the critical mass of Speedlings pop from their eggs. He could just ignore my Zealots and overwhelm my ~2 cannon, 3 Zealot defense I left at the natural and force me to cancel it... but that comes at the expense of the Zerg Hatchery. I find this is a much bigger blow to the Zerg than to me.
When this happens (not often) I put my cycore inside by base rather than outside and transition into a 1 base +1/+1 timing attack which hits at around the time his natural refinishes.
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THIS IS SO COOL! OMG STEALING THIS!!!! I used to do this back in the beta with delayed 5 gate zealot sentry xDDDD
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interesting guide, struggling alot in PvZ atm so will definitely give it a go
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Wow, awesome; I'll definitely keep this in my hat of tricks ^_^
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On September 22 2011 08:18 happyness wrote:
^Good point Staboteur
I really like the quick +1 attack, I was planning on incorporating it myself. I'll definately give it a try. I was wondering how this works on Tal darim, with it being so big it seems like erg would have plenty of time to shut this down.
Also how would this fair against roach-ling all in without making a million cannons? You are really put behind on sentries.
Tal Dariim is a no-go. Scouting is late, they can get one more round of drones out before making Roaches, their Speedlings can counter-attack and do some damage and be back home in time to save the Hatchery... it's just bad news. I have the map downvoted.
For all-ins, are we talking 1 base or 2 base? For a 1-base all-in you can delay the Nexus if needed; basically, if you never saw the Hatchery get placed you should be trying to scout for the all-in or, if denied, get Cannon #2 up much faster than usual. If he goes all-in on two bases, 4 or 5 Cannons will hold, but if the lings choose to run-by, you'll have to hold with the natural's probes since the Cannons are still busy dealing with Roaches. Simple Roach pressure is held with 3 Cannons, provided you didn't lose your inital Zealots.
Thoughout any pressure, try to replace any Cannons that fall.
Basically, this build in some ways turns the tables on the Zerg, but with that it inherits their usual core problem: you need to somehow scout or read how much pressure is coming or else either get caught with your pants down or waste too much money on defenses. (We have a leg up on them, though, in that our making defenses only costs us X money flat; it doesn't deny us a worker to permanently drain our income over time too). Watching the behavior as your Zealots turn back from their push usually lets me read what's up, though I suppose good Zergs could start trying to fake these tells.
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Watching the first replay, there were a lot of significant mistakes made by both you and your opponent. However, the errors mostly evened out, and I can say this is a build with some potential. My primary concern is, of course, Roaches. A proper Roach all-in has the potential to do a lot of damage. It mostly depends on the Zerg's ability to micro. It could be that this build gets much, much stronger on a map like (say) Nerazim Crypt, where three cannons placed at the choke could hold quite a lot of Roaches.
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How would I go about dling those replays? I hit download and a page with the script opens up. This strat looks really promising - I'm looking forward to trying it out.
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On September 22 2011 11:48 Misere wrote:
How would I go about dling those replays? I hit download and a page with the script opens up. This strat looks really promising - I'm looking forward to trying it out.
Right-click the page, choose Save Page, then save it to your replay folder with a .sc2replay extension (you'll have to change the type you're saving it as to all types).
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The main problem in my mind with this build would be roaches exploiting your cannon defense and in the roach replay the guy actually controlled terribly so I'm still not convinced but I'd like to see it vs someone who doesn't just let their roaches get beat down by the zealots,
I used to do a build like this and roaches would always exploit cannon placement and take free zealot kills and it was hard to deal with, also with a delayed warpgate upgrade how are you going to pressure the zerg to stop powering drones if u don't outright kill him.
Its a good guide but it seems very focused on the first 8 mins and delays/disables standard mid-game pressure since you have no sentries and no ability to scout due to delayed warpgate/hallu.
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I like the core idea, zealot pressure. I have been shuffling my own builds around, trying to work in early amount of zealot pressure.
I will do some yabot tonight with your build, and some variations (you have given me some ideas to try!).
The only thing I do not like, is the Cycore being delayed for so long, which delays 3 important things:
- WG
- Hallu (scouting)
- Ability to deny scouting (stalker).
Well written/documented guide, I like the fact there is not overuse of spoiler tags.
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I once thought of a build exactly like this and described to a masters friend (only plat). He called me stupid, haha. I always thought something like this could work, I'll definitely try it out!
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As a zerg, if I were to see a forge put down after the gateway, I'm pretty confident in a win unless I screw up. It's just not a viable build. For one thing, it can't hold baneling busts. At all. Not unless you put at least two cannons above your ramp, and that is not economically viable.
I'd be happy to play against this build. I'm also a high diamond zerg. Mardonius 186.
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I've been doing a similar build, and can confirm the build works with a decent win rate in high diamond.
However, practicing against friends who have faced the build before yields terrible (pretty much 0% win rate after the first few games) results.
This build relies way too much on the zerg responding poorly and your scouting luck (denying hatch first is key). Against a 15 hatch no gas opening in which I am a huge fan of, the zerg comes out ahead by a considerable margin economically. Overlords/drones in your base forever, zerg can respond perfectly to whatever you're doing, droning hard if you stop pumping zealots and expand, and throwing up a few spines if you commit to an attack (3-4 spines is not very economically damaging at all for a Spinishiwa style zerg droning up to ~40 drones before gas with queens).
Bottom line: you're giving zerg free maphack for essentially the entire early game in return for an off-beat timing attack that zergs aren't used to dealing with yet.
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I <3 this right now. Idk how well it will work, but with the toss in need of a buff (imo) and the zerg in need of a different nerf, they've nerfed infestors (but i still believe they should take out energy for all of the casters). anyways back to the subject. I think this build may work like the royal stove part II, where it is so odd and confusing yet somehow kind of works. Hopefully it becomes mainstream so that we can start ffe-ing again  .
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gateway pressure is an interesting style i experimented with, but my problem as yours is when he expands and puts up solid defenses, quite a catchup game if he commits to roaches for an attack.
but still nice to see a fletched out build with transition.
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i cant believe how many people here cant see how much this build requires throwing your opponent off and reacting incorrect, this is a metagame build that leads into a fragile mid game where you cant scout or apply pressure or even take a 3rd safely....
Unless im missing something, in which case i would like to know
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for everyone who likes this guide i would recommend this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259635
i think it's the same thought behind it. this one should be working better for maps like xel naga with open natural, the other one is working well with natural chokes.
as you will see in the other thread you re not behind in mid game (even without concrete damage),as you re very flexible.
and mostly this builds are fantastic fun, because it's not the passive protoss waiting in his base play
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Great guide. Main lesson I learned - also from Noumena's guide - is the fact that early +1 attack Zealots against Zerg are potentially game ending if he doesn't respond appropriately. They prevent heavy droning and take down queens. Both is huge for Zerg.
My midgame against Zerg in general has also become much better since I started dropping Zealots to snipe queens and possibly kill some drones. The implied damage from delayed / denied larva injects can spell doom for Zerg. With the shieldbuff to prisms this will be less risky now, too.
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Gateway-forge indeed kills hatch first easily, but so does forge first in most situations, so Zergs barely ever hatch first.
I dislike the idea of playing a build which works mostly because the opponent gets confused and screws up. There are many players who do that, but because i meet the same players somewhat frequently i maybe lose the first one and i have an easier time in the upcoming games.
back to the build, i dont think double exping is even marginally logical vs gw forge, as it could be either a 1 base allin or a delayed canon exp. I would just scout the timings on your gases, and have a ling to check on your forge. If the forge is spinning 4gate +1 allin, if the gases are very fast then some sort of tech rush and i put down an evo.
If he shows intentions of exping, meaning tries to put pylon on low ground, doesnt have +1 in the forge, doesnt have quick gases, then you can expo again as Zerg or go for the ~26 drone roach-allin which will be a lot harder to hold off because the P doesnt have that 2 large buildings preventing the zerg forces to overrun him.
For example the screenshot of the Xel Naga game you put up shows a fairly juicy expo which could be easily busted with a well executed roach-ling-allin. You say zealot+canon does well vs roaches, well i dont know about that, and it surely gets overrun by the roach-ling atack i mentioned, if done correctly.
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Glad I read this build, it's all about the wrong response, so from now I know how to respond.
(Actually lost to this once)
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Interesting timings, the main concept seems to be from the good ol' 2gate rush/pressure into forge for turtle. except you get a much earlier forge for +1.
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Personally, if I see a toss skip or delay core on one base I will bling bust them every time. I ran into a build similar to this on the ladder and it did indeed throw me for a loop the first time - you're right a lot of that has to do with the mindset of most Zergs (macro macro macro). However after that first time I haven't had significant problems with it since.
That said, its a good build with some significant potential but I wonder if you're not also falling into the trap of thinking like every other toss does ie: zergs don't use banes against toss early game
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Cheers man, will give this ago maybe tonight !
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Again, while I get so many bad responses from Zerg, I still do fine when they do respond correctly; I don't find this hinges on the bad response at all. Any Spine Crawler, ling, or Roach defense requires enough larva to be committed that as long as I get back to chrono boosting my Probes upon seeing no pressure incoming (provided I correctly read that there WAS no pressure coming), I come out at least evenly with the Zerg.
I've never been up against Spanishiwa style though - I could see mass Queens holding this without trouble while not tying up larva. But by the same token, seeing 4 queens should guarantee for me that I don't need cannons for a while (just like Spine Crawlers), so I should be able to tech up faster too. And if his gas is that late, I'm starting the game +1/+1 ahead, upgrade wise, which should make up for having a few fewer workers. But this is theorycraft.
@SergioCQH: I'd love to get some more games vs baneling busts! Those are always very exciting.
@HardMacro: from your description I think your build must have been very different from mine strategically - I get a Nexus up without stopping the Zealot production, at a timing where if Zerg is still droning he takes too much damage, and if not we arrive at the midgame with me at +1/+1 and one tech structure and him at one of: he's about to lose to my coming push from droning too much, or he's trying to take a third with an army, or he's on some form of lair tech. It's not auto-win for me, of course, but I just like the position; it fits my style.
Was your build a 3-gateway +1 weapons pressure with the same follow-up game plan? My build was like that a few iterations ago and in that version I had the problems you're talking about until I dropped the gateway count to 2 and set down my expansion pylon as the third pylon.
@ItsDrea: By the time you want to take a third, you have a good sized midgame +1/+1 army with Zealots, Stalkers, and either Immortals or Blink or Void Rays that you can use to secure it. The only way this army won't be big enough is if he never went for his second expo - in which case you can do 2 base vs 2 base with you having a head start on upgrades.
@Geo.Rion: I find the claim that I should beat Hatchery first pretty interesting - is the Zealot+Cannon rush effectively unstoppable in that case? I generally just go the economic route and delay my push for an earlier Nexus so I can keep up with the Zerg economically, and I usually consider this my weakest case rather than my best.
For Roach/ling, if your attack comes earlier than shown above there's going to be more cannons to deal with as your army continues to try to push (and a smaller army to start with on your side), while if the attack comes at that time or later there's going to be Immortals up before long. If I get caught unprepared I die, sure, but that's how strategy games are supposed to be.
@BackSlashZero: I've only lost to banelings once out of ~8 encounters. My attack hits the banelinger about the time the Banelings morph, putting us either in a base trade scenario which I find deals me less damage than the Zerg, or else he deals with my +1 Zealots with Baneling/Zergling, which is actually much less effective than you'd think, and this clears up enough of the initial attack for me to prepare spread out photon cannons in the natural and block the main with zealots spaced apart enough not to both die to banelings (if the map permits, anyway).
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I really like the building placement at your ramp and the early Zealot pressure.
You could back off as far as demanding that things be all-in, just a small poke is plenty to secure at least equal economies.
Overall, it's a good start to a very solid standard opener vs Zerg.
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Not to discredit the OP's skill (I'm in the same boat) But do any of the blue posters have an opinion on this build/style? I'd be extremely interested in their thoughts.
Personally i think it looks interesting, but tech seems extremely slow. That cyber after expo delays not only WG/stalker/sentry but also robo/tc/sg tech route. Because of this slow tech I feel like a 2 base roach push would be very strong and force you into lots of cannons (which further delays everything) But idn I'm a nub. I'll def try it out I'll say that !
OT: very well constructed guide btw
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On September 22 2011 23:13 stokes17 wrote:
Not to discredit the OP's skill (I'm in the same boat) But do any of the blue posters have an opinion on this build/style? I'd be extremely interested in their thoughts.
Personally i think it looks interesting, but tech seems extremely slow. That cyber after expo delays not only WG/stalker/sentry but also robo/tc/sg tech route. Because of this slow tech I feel like a 2 base roach push would be very strong and force you into lots of cannons (which further delays everything) But idn I'm a nub. I'll def try it out I'll say that !
OT: very well constructed guide btw
Tech is not notably slower due to the gateway before forge, it's slower due to the Zealots and +1, which is fine because you are forcing Zerg to deal with it by massing low-tier units himself.
There needs to be a solid poke at some point, whether it's with the 4 zealots or a half-hearted 4-gate, you NEED to push out to force some units (ex: walk your army up to his nat, build a pylon there, warp in a round of units, then return home).
Assuming you figure out the nuances to that, you should be in a much better position than standard FFE leaves you because your early aggression will have effectively denied a fast 3rd from Zerg.
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This is probably a great ladder build because:
#1. You probably won't re-play the opponents again. If they don't respond to this right the first time, there's your win.
#2. Zergs probably aren't used to early pressure that aren't 4 Gates.
But I'm willing to test this out against some of my practice partners....I'm only in Masters though so it won't mean much unless a blue poster does it
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Quite an interesting guide, might try this variation.
I'm a rather average plat player doing a 4 gate + forge (just for the +1) with standard timing for gate and cyber and forge a little bit after which results in either me winning or being unable to expand due to a heavy roach presence... good to find something that addresses the issue and uses +1 earlier (I love it) that allows me to expand too
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Props on this strategy though. When I play toss i get +1 lings everytime... for some reason all toss players think stalkers are there best unit (sorry for the generalization boys) thats just my experience. them zealots eat my lings up man. roaches are not an early game unit, theyre more mid game efficient so i usually wait to bust em out, these lots would give me troubles
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On September 22 2011 23:47 pg88 wrote:Quite an interesting guide, might try this variation. I'm a rather average plat player doing a 4 gate + forge (just for the +1) with standard timing for gate and cyber and forge a little bit after which results in either me winning or being unable to expand due to a heavy roach presence... good to find something that addresses the issue and uses +1 earlier (I love it) that allows me to expand too
Yeah, that's how this build started - and when I was at that level, too! I was like "I HATE LINGS DIE DIE DIE", but I wound up with a build that was a total piece of cheese that couldn't secure an expo if I didn't win outright.
I got to high plat using a 3-gateway version with no core, and now I'm hanging out at high Diamond with 2 gates. Good luck!
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On September 22 2011 18:32 Alsa wrote:for everyone who likes this guide i would recommend this one: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=259635i think it's the same thought behind it. this one should be working better for maps like xel naga with open natural, the other one is working well with natural chokes. as you will see in the other thread you re not behind in mid game (even without concrete damage),as you re very flexible. and mostly this builds are fantastic fun, because it's not the passive protoss waiting in his base play
Yeah I've been using that noumena's guide on all maps you can FFE exclusively now and it is very solid, you just have to learn all the various timings that can hurt you. I've been curious if there was a 1-base version since I've been loving the heavy zealot early game and zealot/immortal mid-game in PvZ.
For a 1-base version banelings do seem like a big concern if you delay your core too much. If you FFE you can wall-off pretty easily making them require a large amount of banelings to bust it which gives you the time to throw down extra cannons and get some sentries up. The actual speed of teching is not as big of a concern to me because you are not making many sentries compared to a sentry expand so that makes up for a lot in terms of teching since you can channel more of your gas into teching instead of units.
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I use a similar strategy... in few word is gate forge fast exp with zeloats to force lings by zergs.
Good Guide, nice explanation 
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Interesting idea - many protoss do a similar build off a forge FE that is slightly delayed, as you noted in your post. But, concerning your 1base version, I think the two main points readers need to be concerned with when using this are (two points that have been addressed to some degree, but, I'm just going to reiterate them and get to my point in bottom paragraph )
#1 - You're sacrificing early game sentries.
#2 - Your expansion is late.
Why is #1 an issue? I understand you have a forge, and you are also up an enclosed ramp in most scenarios - implying that you're likely safe from most cheeses. But, vs roach openers, I actually think the lack of sentries is quite an issue. Against players opening roach, I would imagine an early pressure + contain with roaches would actually put you behind significantly. You would lack FF to prevent roaches up ramp, you'd be unable to snipe floating OL's and it'd ultimately force an 'x' number of cannons depending on the situation. You'd likely end up more behind than you should be - if not dead.
But, then that really just becomes an issue of being dealt a bad build order from your opponent. So lets consider if there's no roach opener. Lets say you open up with 3-5 zealots with +1, you're cybernetics core is delayed and you're still low on early game sentries + the sentries you currently have lack energy. You take your late expansion (maybe with difficulty?=> further delay Since you lack sentries and stalkers), and again you're going to need to add probably about 2 cannons just to ensure you have some amount of safety. But again, the expansion is delayed. To catch up - you need to do significant damage with the +1 zealots and you need to ensure you have enough sentry energy to keep your cannons alive + prevent runbys. Totally possible, but, again it's not a guarantee. Be aware when using this build - to some degree even if you're not supposedly 'all-inning' with units, you are going to need to do a great deal of economic damage to become even with the zerg.
If you're alright with sacrificing early game sentries + safety vs zerg cheese, I actually feel your build is stronger off a Forge FE simply because there is no delayed expansion and I actually feel you're less economically behind and also the zergs defenses really dont differ a whole lot even if the attack is a full minute - 90 seconds later. Those +1 zealots are what actually stimulate any sort defense or reaction. Also forge fe opens up many transition windows unavailable to 1base gw+forge such as a really fast voidray, +3 colossus really quickly, +2 blink stalkers really quickly into a 3rd base off 5gw and other builds - too many to list. But remember, if you're attacking with +1 zealots you REALLY need to do some damage, or you're going to end up behind.
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@stealthypoo not sure if you understand the intentions of this build, look at the replays, hes always ahead on workers after the attack with an expansion. tryed it 3 times now, won once from a complete mis-reaction and outmacroed them by a long way in the other 2, im only platinum but it will, at the very least make zergs think more about their ZvP play
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I could see this to be early game safe aggression for Protoss just like the bunker rush is for terran.
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On September 23 2011 02:40 Connor987 wrote:
@stealthypoo not sure if you understand the intentions of this build, look at the replays, hes always ahead on workers after the attack with an expansion. tryed it 3 times now, won once from a complete mis-reaction and outmacroed them by a long way in the other 2, im only platinum but it will, at the very least make zergs think more about their ZvP play
I understand the intentions pretty clearly. I've used this style of build plenty off forge FE. You need to realize that Protoss is stuck on 1base with this build, while the zerg is on 2base (unless the 5 zealots manage to kill the nat hatch/prevent it from going up.) Hence I said forge fe is probably a better option so you are guaranteed to be on equal bases with no fast third. And if there's a fast third, there are many follow up options to kill/punish a fast third so the game is more economically balanced for both players.
To your comment about even if zerg is behind on drones, zerg can quickly outproduce the protoss players worker count. The reason the zerg is able to do this is because zergs who 'think' as you say, will quickly realize the protoss needs to expo + tech after his pressure because he will be perpetually behind otherwise. How will they know this? Well theres a lack of sentries/stalkers so OL should be able to scout + it's pretty obvious if someone rushes +1 attack that their tech is delayed and that they're going to either go all-in or play very defensively for a period of time until they're in a comfortable position with 2 bases fully operational.
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On September 23 2011 04:11 Stealthypoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 02:40 Connor987 wrote:
@stealthypoo not sure if you understand the intentions of this build, look at the replays, hes always ahead on workers after the attack with an expansion. tryed it 3 times now, won once from a complete mis-reaction and outmacroed them by a long way in the other 2, im only platinum but it will, at the very least make zergs think more about their ZvP play I understand the intentions pretty clearly. I've used this style of build plenty off forge FE. You need to realize that Protoss is stuck on 1base with this build, while the zerg is on 2base (unless the 5 zealots manage to kill the nat hatch/prevent it from going up.) Hence I said forge fe is probably a better option so you are guaranteed to be on equal bases with no fast third. And if there's a fast third, there are many follow up options to kill/punish a fast third so the game is more economically balanced for both players. To your comment about even if zerg is behind on drones, zerg can quickly outproduce the protoss players worker count. The reason the zerg is able to do this is because zergs who 'think' as you say, will quickly realize the protoss needs to expo + tech after his pressure because he will be perpetually behind otherwise. How will they know this? Well theres a lack of sentries/stalkers so OL should be able to scout + it's pretty obvious if someone rushes +1 attack that their tech is delayed and that they're going to either go all-in or play very defensively for a period of time until they're in a comfortable position with 2 bases fully operational.
I guess I don't see how the build is stuck on one base. If they get the hatch down for hatch first, then the build is gateway-forge-nexus. If they don't, then your nexus is delayed until somewhere in the 20s of supply, but then so is the zerg's.
Now maybe you want to say that the build as it is presented does not work for one reason or another, but it is explicitly the case that the build as presented is not 'stuck on one base'.
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On September 23 2011 05:01 InvictusRage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 04:11 Stealthypoo wrote:On September 23 2011 02:40 Connor987 wrote:
@stealthypoo not sure if you understand the intentions of this build, look at the replays, hes always ahead on workers after the attack with an expansion. tryed it 3 times now, won once from a complete mis-reaction and outmacroed them by a long way in the other 2, im only platinum but it will, at the very least make zergs think more about their ZvP play I understand the intentions pretty clearly. I've used this style of build plenty off forge FE. You need to realize that Protoss is stuck on 1base with this build, while the zerg is on 2base (unless the 5 zealots manage to kill the nat hatch/prevent it from going up.) Hence I said forge fe is probably a better option so you are guaranteed to be on equal bases with no fast third. And if there's a fast third, there are many follow up options to kill/punish a fast third so the game is more economically balanced for both players. To your comment about even if zerg is behind on drones, zerg can quickly outproduce the protoss players worker count. The reason the zerg is able to do this is because zergs who 'think' as you say, will quickly realize the protoss needs to expo + tech after his pressure because he will be perpetually behind otherwise. How will they know this? Well theres a lack of sentries/stalkers so OL should be able to scout + it's pretty obvious if someone rushes +1 attack that their tech is delayed and that they're going to either go all-in or play very defensively for a period of time until they're in a comfortable position with 2 bases fully operational. I guess I don't see how the build is stuck on one base. If they get the hatch down for hatch first, then the build is gateway-forge-nexus. If they don't, then your nexus is delayed until somewhere in the 20s of supply, but then so is the zerg's. Now maybe you want to say that the build as it is presented does not work for one reason or another, but it is explicitly the case that the build as presented is not 'stuck on one base'.
The build is stuck on one base because in most situations zergs will stop the zealot pressure and retain a number of units - or they may make too many units. You will not have warp gate tech very quickly, hence it's easy to delay/prevent the expo by protoss with the use of speedlings or roaches. Hence I don't think its viable in most situations. If i were going to use this build, hatch first would be the situation to do it - probably with a cannon rush as the op mentioned. Otherwise the zerg will still have many units and make it tough to expo while they retain the hatch unless you somehow kill it.
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i like this build. remember you can do a reactive semi-allin with gate-forge vs hatch first/greedy pool (as in 15 hatch 15-6 pool, or 3 hatch before pool)
and you can play normally like a 2 gate forge expand except with faster nexus and faster upgrade.
the zealot pressure should be an option, not a requirement of the build. because in some cases its better to expand. maybe choose between full out attacking with zlots and sending one zlot to scout without dying to a ling.
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+1 zealots kick the crap out of zerglings
like its not funny how badly zerglings lose vs them
that is all
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i'm having issues with the downloads :{ is anyone else having these issues?
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This is exactly the kind of innovating Protoss needs to start doing! Well done sir. I'm eager to start playing with your build against my Platinum Zerg enemies, who seem to have figured out how to roll over me against the builds of old.
I think with some refinement this build can be a serious contribution to the meta game. Nicely done! Keep up the good fight as Protoss is definitely in a slump right now (MC out of Code A, WTF?)
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For those of you having problems downloading the replays. Right click the download link and hit "Save As" or "Save Link As".
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pretty sure any half decent zerg will know whats up when they scout a gateway and forge in your main lol
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Thanks for writing up the guide. Not really my kind of play style but enjoyable to read and definitely educating.
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So i'v been using this build for a few games and find it transitions well into Arcon, zealot. While doing the 5 zealot rush i throw up a stargate and build a couple voidrays to kill overlords and harass with directly after the zealot rush completes. during the void ray harass i take a third and teck to high temps and lay down about 10 gateways and max asap. I find that I was able to max out an army of 2-2 zealots and Arcons by around the 17 min mark which I thought was great.
The reason why i find it transitions so well is because after the zealot rush I was floating alot of gas. I may not be doing the build exactly as you layed it out though, i used the same concept. Great build.
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I feel the baneling player should've won convincingly, but made some control mistakes and bad decisions.
Otherwise I don't think it's a bad build. Funny how from my Zerg point of view anything in PvZ that isn't standard is better than the standard. The day when Protoss stop doing the same 2 builds I'll be very sad.
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Interesting and solid stuff. Will try this on ladder today.
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I can see any type of roach counter attack with lings can win the game ez due to your lack of stalker, sentries and walls. And it is the only type of replay you didn't provide us with. However, feel free to correct my mistake if theres any.
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On September 23 2011 20:05 mattdevils wrote:
So i'v been using this build for a few games and find it transitions well into Arcon, zealot. While doing the 5 zealot rush i throw up a stargate and build a couple voidrays to kill overlords and harass with directly after the zealot rush completes. during the void ray harass i take a third and teck to high temps and lay down about 10 gateways and max asap. I find that I was able to max out an army of 2-2 zealots and Arcons by around the 17 min mark which I thought was great.
The reason why i find it transitions so well is because after the zealot rush I was floating alot of gas. I may not be doing the build exactly as you layed it out though, i used the same concept. Great build.
Could you share the replay with me? I really love Arcon/Zealot but have a very tough time teching to it safely without being overwhelmed by mass roach.
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I love this build, I have had some great succees with it, I never have felt that I would be ahead on macro game before.
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Canada151 Posts
Excellent guide and I love the idea! I'm still practicing it in the build order tester to get it down-pat... But something I was thinking and wondering if you'd tried if instead of going for Robo tech you tried going stargate tech? The way I figure it, say the opponent responds correctly and makes roaches... What this inherently means is that this has more than likely slowed down his lair timing, meaning not only will Void Rays not have to worry for Hydras nearly as early, but it also allows you to keep up the pressure a little bit and possibly deny a third base. If you suspect he's going for burrowed roaches, I would probably just build a healthy number of cannons at the front to keep your ass covered, and proceed to roflstomp him with Voids.
I'm a bit believer in stargate vs Zerg... So I am of course biased in this regard, but I like that this build essentially forces the Zerg down a path, and if you follow up with Void rays it forces them to do a little more (make spores, extra queens, possibly tech to hydras). Either way, I can see it giving a very healthy economic lead.
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@Stealthypoo: this build throws down its natural before even moving out for the attack - the only way I could wind up unable to hold the expo is if Zerg either goes 1-base all-in (which I hold anyway so long as I scouted it or at least prepared for the possibility) or he goes for a base trade when I arrive at his Hatchery. And in either case the Zerg winds up far enough behind his usual position that I'm still in the game or even in the lead.
Look at it this way: compared to a 3gate Sentry expand that moves down the ramp with let's say 4 Sentries (which I think is pretty early, I don't do that build much though), I'm putting down my Nexus before getting: 1 gateway, 1 cycore, 4 Sentries, 1 assimilator, and warpgate tech (total: 1025 resources, 650 of which is gas). However, I'm also making 1 forge, 4 more Zealots, one Cannon, +1 Weapons (total: 900 resources, only 100 of which is gas). So I'm putting my Nexus down slightly earlier than that standard, and my army isn't required to stay at home until the Nexus is up / enough energy builds up like the Sentries are.
@MilesTag: I agree, and I think my 7-1 record against banelings is more representative of my greater experience with the situation than my opponents rather than it being a build order win for me. At the same time, I think I could have controlled better and made better decisions, also. The baneling bust is imo a very even matchup for this build, and let me tell you it leads to some of the most fun matches I've ever played.
@CrazedMike: Check out the Carrier replay, your idea is more or less what I do there. Although, both of us make some significant errrors in the game (we are Diamond league, after all) which makes it hard to be sure how safe the transition to Stargate tech is.
I say this because suddenly gathering enough gas to support Stargate production is harder than for Robo, and the switch has to be made at a time when we're at our blindest. For instance, I'm not convinced I would have held that game if the opponent committed a lot of lings along with the Roaches just before my Void Rays popped, whereas when I add on Robo I still have plenty of production going on as it comes online.
It's certainly doable, and it's probaby even better for the long run, but I have the distinct feeling it's the cheesier choice in terms of staying alive.
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Canada151 Posts
@Crow!
I do agree that Robo definitely feels a lot smoother to transition to as opposed to Stargate... But I think you would have to delay it a little (not immediately rush to it) and maybe get 1-2 more gates before making a Stargate... That buys you plenty of time to get more ground units to try and hold a counterattack (plus getting more gates helps the walloff more quickly). During that time, you take your second and third geyser and then you move on to the Stargate tech.
As said, a properly responding Zerg player is going to make Roaches to fend off the Zealots, because if he doesn't he will basically sustain a fair amount of damage. So if he makes Roaches, he's sunk at least a fair bit of gas to get those Roaches ready, delaying the Lair tech which means delaying the Stargate is just fine. If he doesn't make roaches then he is basically going to take some damage in which case again, Lair tech will be somewhat delayed... Giving you a solid economic platform to take off from there.
Once you both get some breathing room, going for one or maybe even two Stargates could be feasible. You could either try and go Voids to try and deny their third, or you could quickly mass up about 4-6 Phoenix (more if you're comfortable) and harass them. I personally prefer the Phoenix route, as they are super quick to build and easier to manage economy wise. Besides, sniping overlords when a Zerg has gone Roach can be incredibly crucial. I personally almost never worry about drones when using Phoenix unless I have a really decent cloud of them... I pretty much try and snipe as many queens and overlords as possible. If you make a Void ray at the end to basically stay at home as part of the defense, it's incredibly hard for the Zerg to A) Counterattack without you knowing as you should have a decent idea of where their units are, as well as keeping Overlords away from your base so that there are no Nydus shenanigans, and B) you can then use that Void Ray to try and work on that third base if it's possible.
I'm a big believer in Phoenix against Zerg, but Hydras are so good en masse against them that it's difficult sometimes. In my PvZs I tend to transition out of Phoenix into chargelot/Archon, coupled with Void Ray support. It's an incredibly powerful army composition that may need to be explored. Plus, believe it or not Phoenix are actually semi decent vs Infestors as you can easily swing back and hold the Infestor for either your Phoenix to kill them, or your army when it mows through the Zerg front line.
I'm going to work out the build order until I'm comfortable and happy with it... But this type of strategy has a lot of potential, and I really like the feel of the "Gasless Protoss" as it's something I've been trying to figure out how to do for a long time, as both Terran and Zerg have gasless approaches towards fast expanding, but Protoss options are very limited... I feel this may be one of the stronger ways of approaching that idea, but naturally you pretty much will always need the 100 gas no matter how you look at it.
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On September 23 2011 23:32 Mikelius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2011 20:05 mattdevils wrote:
So i'v been using this build for a few games and find it transitions well into Arcon, zealot. While doing the 5 zealot rush i throw up a stargate and build a couple voidrays to kill overlords and harass with directly after the zealot rush completes. during the void ray harass i take a third and teck to high temps and lay down about 10 gateways and max asap. I find that I was able to max out an army of 2-2 zealots and Arcons by around the 17 min mark which I thought was great.
The reason why i find it transitions so well is because after the zealot rush I was floating alot of gas. I may not be doing the build exactly as you layed it out though, i used the same concept. Great build. Could you share the replay with me? I really love Arcon/Zealot but have a very tough time teching to it safely without being overwhelmed by mass roach.
replay 1
replay 2
Keep in mind this is mid diamond. But enjoy.
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i can't open replays on this thread 
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@WeaVerPrime: Right click the download link and select "Save Target As..." then specify the appropriate replay folder.
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An update as I tweak my build!
Whenever the Zerg doesn't commit to early Ling pressure, I've taken to putting the second Gateway on the low ground next to pylon #3. Here's a picture of the approximate setup - the two pylons should be further apart than I made them in this game though, in case of baneling busts.
![[image loading]](https://www.msu.edu/~worhatch/GatewayBelow.jpg)
Add on the CyCore, and this makes the wall that much easier to manage when Roach/Ling comes in.
Speaking of which, I've had some requests for a replay in such a situation. Here's a pretty recent one, where I hold with no economic losses despite losing three Zealots completely unnecessarily in the initial attack. I promptly squander my lead, though, with some terrible macro and bad engagement timings.
(download)
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On September 26 2011 11:15 Crow! wrote:An update as I tweak my build! Whenever the Zerg doesn't commit to early Ling pressure, I've taken to putting the second Gateway on the low ground next to pylon #3. Here's a picture of the approximate setup - the two pylons should be further apart than I made them in this game though, in case of baneling busts. Add on the CyCore, and this makes the wall that much easier to manage when Roach/Ling comes in. Speaking of which, I've had some requests for a replay in such a situation. Here's a pretty recent one, where I hold with no economic losses despite losing three Zealots completely unnecessarily in the initial attack. I promptly squander my lead, though, with some terrible macro and bad engagement timings. ( download)
What is the game timer in that screen shot? 6:06?
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It is 6:08. The exact time of my moveout varies depending on a lot of details (in particular, where chronoboosts go and how many lings are on the map early on). Expect something up to 15 seconds faster or slower than this, with the Nexus and CyCore being correspondingly slower or faster as a result.
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what do you do when the zerg just makes his few roaches, gets 2 base saturation and hurls roach/ling at you? You're not going to have enough forcefields to really do much against it; seems the smart play to me.
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That's the contents of the recently added replay, Arisen. I can hold, and the aggression leaves the Zerg behind economically.
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On September 26 2011 14:15 Crow! wrote:
That's the contents of the recently added replay, Arisen. I can hold, and the aggression leaves the Zerg behind economically.
I watched the replay. The zerg controlled pretty poorly, losing most of his lings for free, and still did fairly well. I'm pretty convinced a that without the sentries, a really crisp and well controlled roach/ling would kill this build unless you droped a few mroe cannons (In which case the zerg could just back up and drone). In addition, AS's natural is pretty tight (and in your position, far away). I think maps like xelnaga would only help the zerg player (though maps that are super confined like nerazim crypt (i think that's the one with the wierd choke rocks) would help.
Also, sentries are pretty important to the integrity of a protoss midgame; I can't imagine feeling comfortable with such a low sentry opener. I think a build like this has value in a boX as a pretty odd rush that could catch people off, but I don't know if it could quite be a "standard" play in the current state of the game because of the delayed tech and sentry numbers.
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I also controlled terribly, and basically didn't macro at all thoughout the fight, floating 600 to 900 minerals throughout it. Sure, maybe his miscontrol was bigger than my miscontrol, but by so much that my having spent that money wouldn't have saved me? I think not. I'm high Diamond level and I'm playing against someone else at the same level, don't expect to see games where either of us doesn't make some significant mistakes. If you can whip up a replay of this situation with neither side making mistakes, please do so!
(Also, his lings cost effectively killed my first Immortal and the outermost cannon while tanking for the Roaches - is that really counted as a terrible miscontrol? Sure, the later ones were less effective, but it's not like they died without killing things, either...)
BTW, I do have early tech - in the form of absurdly early +1/+1 ground upgrades.
If you're a fan of Sentry based play you can add them instead of more conventional tech and have plenty for the midgame. I just don't like them, though, at least not on maps where I have to traverse so much wide open space to get to the opponent's base.
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I tried this build out, I think it's a great build but could certainly use some tweaking. I changed some orders though. I'm not sure if it's better, but I'm definitely going to start using it coupled with some tweaks.
For example, in my build I skip the 2nd gateway and go for a Cyber instead. I got a timing that let's you hit with 5 zealots and +1 attack at the same time when those 5 zealots are in front of their base. That let's me tech up to Immortals much faster that blind counters any roach play that he might be getting.
If he goes straight Roaches, just make sure you keep those 5 zealots alive and you can hit him with a Zealot/Stalker +2 Immortals army at an odd timing. It's highly likely too that Mutas won't be coming out any time soon since you're pressuring him and even if it did, you're already set up with 2 bases and could just pop cannons to defend the harass and add more stalkers to the army to deal with the Mutas.
Yes, this certainly confuses alot of Zergs, I'm not sure if the strength of this build comes from confusion. I don't think it does. It let's you pressure your opponent safer than a 3 gate expand and better too in my opinion.
If that 2 Immortal push doesn't kill him, it's easy to transition to Zealot/Immortal/Templar mix or the standard deathball. I usually go templars because I just love archons.
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On September 27 2011 03:56 Micks wrote:
I tried this build out, I think it's a great build but could certainly use some tweaking. I changed some orders though. I'm not sure if it's better, but I'm definitely going to start using it coupled with some tweaks.
For example, in my build I skip the 2nd gateway and go for a Cyber instead. I got a timing that let's you hit with 5 zealots and +1 attack at the same time when those 5 zealots are in front of their base. That let's me tech up to Immortals much faster that blind counters any roach play that he might be getting.
If he goes straight Roaches, just make sure you keep those 5 zealots alive and you can hit him with a Zealot/Stalker +2 Immortals army at an odd timing. It's highly likely too that Mutas won't be coming out any time soon since you're pressuring him and even if it did, you're already set up with 2 bases and could just pop cannons to defend the harass and add more stalkers to the army to deal with the Mutas.
Yes, this certainly confuses alot of Zergs, I'm not sure if the strength of this build comes from confusion. I don't think it does. It let's you pressure your opponent safer than a 3 gate expand and better too in my opinion.
If that 2 Immortal push doesn't kill him, it's easy to transition to Zealot/Immortal/Templar mix or the standard deathball. I usually go templars because I just love archons.
That's interesting. Could you provide a replay? Appreciated. Well using OP's won every single PvZ (even when I was worse than my oponent, special tactics and dts helps alot), I lost to a super aggressive ling and roach play.
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I'll upload a couple once I get home about 7 hours from now. I'm still at work
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Tried this a few times last night on korean server @ diamond level.
Get's totally wrecked by fast roach - no way around this - unless it's something like shakuras, where you would want to forge FE anyway. (The zergs who were able to roach, opened pool first).
I still think the core idea of early zealot poking is very good. I would like to see if it's still possible to achieve similar timings from gate-forge-core - or gate, core, forge.
I hope there is a variant from standard gate-gas-core, that we can reactively throw down a forge vs hatch first, or speedling expand, when scouted by our probe.
I strongly think the OP's build is not favourable at all, against pool first.
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When you say fast Roach, are you talking about 5rr? Because if that's the case this would still work as you can build your cannon behind your forge, it would hard counter it and then you can play normally again.
If you're up against 2 base fast roach, that's the best response by Z in my opinion. It won't crush it if you positioned your cannons right and defend properly. Avoid losing Zealots as much as possible as they would be the key to your survival when lings come. You would be able to stall it until Stalkers come out. Once Stalkers are out it would be a 2base Z vs a 2base P. The roach timing off 2 bases comes out near the time your 5 +1 zealots are in front of his base. Roaches can't catch your Zealots off the creep. I think that's they key point there.
Around what time does the Roach attack come? You might be expanding a little bit early. What I do is to make sure that it's not a 1 base play by Z. Because if it is, then I'm gonna be forced to change it and probably just 4gate +1 attack him.
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On September 27 2011 07:03 Micks wrote:
When you say fast Roach, are you talking about 5rr? Because if that's the case this would still work as you can build your cannon behind your forge, it would hard counter it and then you can play normally again.
If you're up against 2 base fast roach, that's the best response by Z in my opinion. It won't crush it if you positioned your cannons right and defend properly. Avoid losing Zealots as much as possible as they would be the key to your survival when lings come. You would be able to stall it until Stalkers come out. Once Stalkers are out it would be a 2base Z vs a 2base P. The roach timing off 2 bases comes out near the time your 5 +1 zealots are in front of his base. Roaches can't catch your Zealots off the creep. I think that's they key point there.
Around what time does the Roach attack come? You might be expanding a little bit early. What I do is to make sure that it's not a 1 base play by Z. Because if it is, then I'm gonna be forced to change it and probably just 4gate +1 attack him.
It's 2base - and with the specific build in the OP, you're left way behind going into the midgame - your scouting is delayed, you can't apply pressure, you have very few sentries (read: defense).
If you win from this position, you're either not using the OP's opening build, or the Zerg is being terrible.
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Yeah, I'm using a tweaked version of OP's build. I'm forcing him to go Roaches, and then blind counter with Immortals. Still tweaking it so it would be more efficient but basically it goes like this:
Gateway -> Forge -> +1 Attack -> Cyber -> Robo. All the time while that single gateway is producing Zealots. I'm trying to find out the best time on when's the earliest time I could put down the Nexus and the 2 additional Gateways for a timing push.
Edit:
Using it at Masters at the moment and was able to beat a couple of GMs with it. I'm starting to love my PvZ matchup (I hated it before) after discovering this thread.
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On September 27 2011 08:25 Micks wrote:
Yeah, I'm using a tweaked version of OP's build. I'm forcing him to go Roaches, and then blind counter with Immortals. Still tweaking it so it would be more efficient but basically it goes like this:
Gateway -> Forge -> +1 Attack -> Cyber -> Robo. All the time while that single gateway is producing Zealots. I'm trying to find out the best time on when's the earliest time I could put down the Nexus and the 2 additional Gateways for a timing push.
Edit:
Using it at Masters at the moment and was able to beat a couple of GMs with it. I'm starting to love my PvZ matchup (I hated it before) after discovering this thread.
That sounds slightly safer than OP's.
Will test - thanks.
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If you find a specific build order that makes it efficient and tight timings, please share it as I'm still playing it by ear and don't have a set BO yet. I think I got the timing for the +1 attack / 5 zealots initial pressure but I'd really love to get the timing on the 2 Immortals as well for the 2nd push.
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hi guys, thanks for the idea.
i was messing around with some gate/forge/expand styles and didn't hit what i was looking for. i did some new arrangements:
-buildings at the front of expand
-sticking to 1 gateway first
-faster core
-try to cannon his exp
it makes the build more flexible without loosing too much of "push power". i didnt what the reps so i'm not sure how many zeals u build with the second gate but i suppose that you could spend one more chrono on the first gate and you have roughly the same amount of zeals. and i start the first zeal before forge (u 2?). well as it turns out the first push with ~5 zeals comes at a really strange timing, mostly the z will either go masslings first, then i stick to my expand or he makes lots of drones and is in trouble to defend. didnt see roaches rush so far (maybe due to cannons at his exp?).
lets see how the build evolves
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Great work Crow!
I really like your build. Innovative people like you is what makes sc2 such a fun game to play. I'll try this for sure, but even if it doesn't turn out to work very well, I'll still appreciate the good work you've put down into it. It's always nice to read topics like this. So refreshing. ^^
EDIT:
Ok, I've watched the replays now and I have a few thoughts... What do you do if zerg starts out with roaches, lets say 3-4 roaches and then goes heavy macro when he sees your cannon expand. No ling speed, no roach all-in, just 3 roach and double expand and then some more roach and speedlings before teching mass muta for example. Have you met someone who made only a few roaches early and not being aggressive with them?
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So i'v been working with this build alot more. I'v having alot of trouble surviving roach all in's but it is possible. I took a few notes of all the games i'v played where i tweaked it a little each time and i found the best one I had was at the 6 min mark.
I had 23 probes
2 canons
2 zealots out
with my nexus completed.
and a 32 supply
I don't know how this compared to anyone else or if Anyones hit anything better. lemme know.
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http://www.mediafire.com/?h8jz4eab1trkkv0
Here's the replay. It's completely unrefined as you can see I had 800 minerals floating at the early stages. I played bad in the early part but you'd notice the effectiveness of that Immortal push. Still need to refine it though. I still don't know what build order to make it efficient.
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I played a few games last night against my z practice partner (we are both masters).
Some notes:
- You want +1 to finish as you leave your base. From the time your probe scouting is denied, you are in the dark, and for all your know he could have popped 12+ speedlings. It is possible for the Zerg to smash your zealot force, but we want to make it as larva inefficient for him as possible (1/0 zealots vs 0/0 lings is inefficient)
- CB allocation So far:
First 2 on nexus,
3 on forge, 1 on gate @ 80% +1 weapons. Leaves me with 4.75 zealots with +1 as a leave my base.
Stock at least one CB while you are moving out to his base with your zealots - you will need it on your immortal if you scout roach aggression.
- Against 1base Roach Rush (which you should scout with your probe, but we simulated probe dying) you have a hard time. You'll meet the roaches somewhere on the map with your zealots. Cut probes, Chrono your immortal, chrono your gates. Add 2 cannons at top of your ramp - sacrifice pylon wall at bottom. I think this is a glaring weakness to this opening - but with proper probe scouting you should easily sniff out the ultra fast 1-base version.
- Your nexus is going to be later than a Sentry Expand. Mine is going down at 6:30 - 7:00 depending on the information I get with my 4 zealots. I delay my nexus till +1 is done, since my practice partner showed me how hard he can stomp my sentryless expand with blind-speedling production.
- If you scout no roaches, the first unit out of your robo bay should be a chrono'd warp prism. It's got 100 sheilds now, it's great for scouting (can fly over queen with no damage). With this warp prism you should check for fast 3rd's and fast lair.
Load up 2 zealots before you move out - fly over the ground-attack path (to pick up possible roach/ling timing). Clear towers on the way.
Drop 1 zealot in the main/natural as you fly over them if the opening is there (+1 zealot deals quite nicely to a queen).
- Attempting to start expanding before +1 done (or close to done) is just gambling. You will be fine most games, but when you come across an aggressive speedling player with good micro, he's going to stomp you.
- Just because you have an early robo, doesn't mean you're not able to play reactively. If you scout no aggression with your warp prism, add gates, start +1 armour. I prefer to add a TC when +1 armour is nearly done, while being on 4-5 gates - apply pressure with immortal/gateway, and warp prism.
The overall opening is essentially a 2gate robo, with a very late 2nd gate and an early forge.
I am quite happy with my revisions on this opening so far, a few more things to try out in practice - then will be taking it to the ladder. Will post ladder replays when they come.
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- nvm on this part of the post, I was responding to something last page that's already been resolved.
Also, thanks Trusty / Micks! Constructive feedback from higher levels than myself is greatly appreciated. I'll link to a couple of your posts in the OP. Down here in Diamond league, having one and then two Zealots around the first photon cannon will always allow it to get constructed... I wonder if there is some other arrangement which can make defense of the cannon possible earlier on? Maybe on specific maps making the cannon next to a wall, or among the minerals, or using a probe or two to plug the wall-in long enough to bring the wall-zealot down to have better defensive coverage of the cannon?
@ El_Mojjo:
If Zerg makes the bare minimum of Roaches, in order for me to keep up I need to see that this is the case and not make additional cannons based on what my Zealots see as they dance with the Roaches between my base and his. If he devotes all his effort to economy instead of pressure I end up a bit behind in that regard but my tech / army will be notably better than his and I have a good shot at denying (or killing, if he went straight for it) the third. And since by this point my two bases are saturated anyway, we wind up even economically after all.
If he fakes me out and I over- or under- make defenses, I either fall behind or I die - this is usually the core problem Zerg faces, and if playing that game means avoiding feeling like I have to do one of the various cheese-tastic tech-rushing options, that's a drawback I'm willing to accept.
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Same with Masters, actually you could safely put down the Nexus even before the cannon finishes up since you would still be dealing with zerglings mostly. As long as you keep a zealot in the choke your Gateway/Forge makes, it would be enough to prevent zergling runbys. As for your expo, a handful of zealots there would be enough to defend it until the cannon goes up. Once the cannon is up and the zerg still commits to zergling pressure, you can be 100% sure he's not making drones since all that larvae is going into those lings. This is safe as long as your opponent isn't doing some kind of 1 base play. I prefer to not wall the cannon behind a structure in the early part of the game and stick it out front and leave some open spaces. So that if ever it's a roach play I would be using my zealots as the moving "wall". You could hold this out until Stalkers and possibly Immortal comes out. I don't usually try to make a cannon before I start the Nexus.
I'll play with this for a while and simulate it with AI first to get good timings. Once that's done, I'll do practice sessions with one of my buddies (also Masters) to tweak it depending on the build.
It's a really nice build and I could see a good potential with it as not only it let's you expand safely, but also put some pressure on the Z. I think of it as a counterpart of speedling expand for Z without the speed LOL. I also play Z btw.
Zea
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This is a pretty cool build, especially from a diamond player!
Its very interesting and its something I've been thinking about and why people don't do this more often. I have seen some of this in PvP with a zealot canon rush, but rarely in PvZ.
I actually like to go a 2gate zealot rush on close positions which is pretty much just Shattered temple now. If I see close positions Ill make a gate around 14ish after 9 scout. It has been pretty effective and most zerg players are really thrown off by this. I've beaten several masters zergs, and I myself am masters. I go to around 5 zealots transition to a couple stalkers and continue applying pressure while doing a 2gate robo expand.
Funky builds like yours, or a 2gate can really throw off zerg players who are so used to standard long macro games. As long as its refined and thought out it can work, Cool build :D
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On September 28 2011 08:18 Crow! wrote:
- nvm on this part of the post, I was responding to something last page that's already been resolved.
Also, thanks Trusty / Micks! Constructive feedback from higher levels than myself is greatly appreciated. I'll link to a couple of your posts in the OP. Down here in Diamond league, having one and then two Zealots around the first photon cannon will always allow it to get constructed... I wonder if there is some other arrangement which can make defense of the cannon possible earlier on? Maybe on specific maps making the cannon next to a wall, or among the minerals, or using a probe or two to plug the wall-in long enough to bring the wall-zealot down to have better defensive coverage of the cannon?
@ El_Mojjo:
If Zerg makes the bare minimum of Roaches, in order for me to keep up I need to see that this is the case and not make additional cannons based on what my Zealots see as they dance with the Roaches between my base and his. If he devotes all his effort to economy instead of pressure I end up a bit behind in that regard but my tech / army will be notably better than his and I have a good shot at denying (or killing, if he went straight for it) the third. And since by this point my two bases are saturated anyway, we wind up even economically after all.
If he fakes me out and I over- or under- make defenses, I either fall behind or I die - this is usually the core problem Zerg faces, and if playing that game means avoiding feeling like I have to do one of the various cheese-tastic tech-rushing options, that's a drawback I'm willing to accept.
Hey Crow, In the build you state in the OP, you should be able to get the nexus up fine. I was referring to the modified version where we get a Core instead of a 2nd gate (since we won't have the zealot count at that specific point in time to defend speedling aggression).
Benefits of a faster Core/Robo:
- Immortals out to fight roach/ling, no need for zealot/cannon dancing to stall. Don't need 3 Cannons.
- Faster follow up scouting (faster WP/obs).
- Warpgates done much earlier - ready in time for the fastest of roach/ling all-ins.
Drawbacks:
- Slower nexus. Roughly 50 seconds slower at the moment. You can drop the nexus earlier with this build, but it's unsafe (don't have 2gateways up and running to defend).
- 4 Zealot poke instead of 5.
Note: Going through some of the reps, I'm at 32-36 probes (CB variations) just as my natural finishes - This is pretty nice as it means I'm close to minimum-saturation (16 on minerals) at each base. So it's not that big of a deal having the nexus a bit later.
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@Trusty:
Can you upload a replay of that build of yours where it was successful and when it got overrun by that speedling pressure?
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Ah, I see, I misunderstood you.
Anyway, I'll have to try out the faster CyCore style at some point - I do love Immortals.
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Havn't watched the replays just to preface. It seems cute but in it's current form it looks like a zerg that knew how to respond could just throw up two spines and youd get behind quite easily
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I just did a couple of practice sessions with a buddy of mine (top 8 zerg masters) and I told him exactly what build I was doing and to try to counter it except using a 1 base play. I can't upload the replays yet as I'm still at work slacking ^_^
Shattered Temple Close Positions:
He tried a roach build, which I scouted with my initial zealot push. He can't catch the Zealots off creep and once he got to my base I already had a couple of cannons and an Immortal to deal with it. I got to counter push and he was forced to make more units for defending and also some spine crawlers. Just a little bit of push then withdrew left me ahead since he can't drone up. Finished it with a standard death ball.
Xel'Naga:
Speedling pressure. Was hard keeping the nat stabilized enough but basically he can't face my Zealot pressure with speedlings as they just melt. It's not cost efficient money-wise or larvae-wise. It delayed his 3rd by a significant amount. When I got the DT out, he just can't expand. Was able to finish it with another deathball. Archon variation.
Nerazim:
2 base muta with lots of spines. I did the same build order I was refining, obs was able to scout the spire at 70%. Since I couldn't push out without taking significant damage (spines, queens) I really couldn't put pressure on him. So I just decided to take a 3rd. When I saw the muta, just popped in a couple of cannons in each expansion and went for a twilight council (I had minimal number of stalkers still, had 4 gates already though). Went straight for blink stalkers to deny the harass and keep the muta number in count, also put a little pressure at his front. Once Archons were out, it's gg.
This build will die to a well-executed 1 base play, or perhaps a baneling play (we haven't tested the baneling yet, will do tomorrow). But for other builds, it certainly is viable. I'm not saying it's a 100% win build, but it definitely is a good build.
Another option here is to go fast Twilight Council to get a FAST +3 Attacks and I'm sure there's no easy way for Z to be able to deal with +3 Archons.
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On September 29 2011 03:40 Micks wrote:
I just did a couple of practice sessions with a buddy of mine (top 8 zerg masters) and I told him exactly what build I was doing and to try to counter it except using a 1 base play. I can't upload the replays yet as I'm still at work slacking ^_^
Shattered Temple Close Positions:
He tried a roach build, which I scouted with my initial zealot push. He can't catch the Zealots off creep and once he got to my base I already had a couple of cannons and an Immortal to deal with it. I got to counter push and he was forced to make more units for defending and also some spine crawlers. Just a little bit of push then withdrew left me ahead since he can't drone up. Finished it with a standard death ball.
Xel'Naga:
Speedling pressure. Was hard keeping the nat stabilized enough but basically he can't face my Zealot pressure with speedlings as they just melt. It's not cost efficient money-wise or larvae-wise. It delayed his 3rd by a significant amount. When I got the DT out, he just can't expand. Was able to finish it with another deathball. Archon variation.
Nerazim:
2 base muta with lots of spines. I did the same build order I was refining, obs was able to scout the spire at 70%. Since I couldn't push out without taking significant damage (spines, queens) I really couldn't put pressure on him. So I just decided to take a 3rd. When I saw the muta, just popped in a couple of cannons in each expansion and went for a twilight council (I had minimal number of stalkers still, had 4 gates already though). Went straight for blink stalkers to deny the harass and keep the muta number in count, also put a little pressure at his front. Once Archons were out, it's gg.
This build will die to a well-executed 1 base play, or perhaps a baneling play (we haven't tested the baneling yet, will do tomorrow). But for other builds, it certainly is viable. I'm not saying it's a 100% win build, but it definitely is a good build.
Another option here is to go fast Twilight Council to get a FAST +3 Attacks and I'm sure there's no easy way for Z to be able to deal with +3 Archons.
Could you please share some replays? This build keeps sounding better and better
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that is what i would suggest too
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I did some ladder with the fast CyCore/Robo variant playing top 8 masters.
The best response I saw, was two spines on Shattered Temple + Queen blocking ramp. Shutdown the zealot pressure for 2 drones worth. Going to adjust build to bring a probe with my 4 zealots, and if he has spines, I will build a pylon inside his vision.
For 100mins this has the chance to force a lot more spines/units. Requires him to not have an overlord in your base (so he can't see if you have WG done or not). Also the probe you escort with your 4 zealots, can go and hide after it's built the pylon. Most zergs I play are religious about scouting the entire map for my first initial probe scout - hopefully I can sneak this probe away during the time I have control of watch tower.
I faced someone on X positions on Antiga, who went 18drone Roach/Ling All-in. It was very close, I ended up losing some probes, but I feel I could have held without probe loss in retrospect. The game ended up in a very weird state after this, but i felt happy in my ability to defend the hardcore roach-ling all in with this build.
I also did a few games getting a stargate instead of a Robo. It's cheaper at shutting down roach/ling (1 VR), and gives you the ability to easily deny his 3rd.
I won and lost a game with this build, both players reacting with a 2base roach/hydra timing (hydra timings are in-built to Zergs who see void rays).
The follow up to opening Robo is quite easy (scout with obs/WP, make immortals, and zealots, go move around the map).
The follow up with Stargate is not so easy to me - it's not like forge FE where you have 2base full saturation to instantly switch to Collosus. Maybe someone with more experience doing Stargate play can try/suggest some stuff - I hardly ever go Stargate in my PvZ.
Will upload replays later.
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The Spine + Queen block is map specific - if the natural isn't right next to the ramp the Spines either don't cover the mineral side of the Hatchery so you just kill it anyway, or they don't cover the ramp and you kill the Queen who gets cornered without creep behind her. Heck, even on the better maps you can still sac a couple Zealots to kill the Queen on the ramp even with the spines poking you, but that's a gamble - if he was already going for extra Queens anyway this doesn't kill larva and so isn't worth it (unless maybe if you're planning on Stargate play).
I actually haven't had trouble vs Spines on Shattered Temple before - check your replay again to see if you could have wrapped around to the back safely. Right now Shakuras Plateau is the only map I have mentally flagged as a place where Spines have to actually be respected, but it could be that I just just haven't encountered Spines placed both properly and punctually on some other maps yet.
Still, even when you do get shut down with static defenses, at least you know his resources didn't go into mobile units just yet so you can delay cannons up in favor of teching for more mobile defenses faster, which saves you money.
Let me go out on a limb here and suggest trying out a Carrier follow-up to the Stargate play if they "answer" it with Hydras. Hydras actually suck against Carriers really bad until Infestors are out to keep the Carriers from microing, and they still only succeed in trading evenly in that case only if there aren't Zealots heading toward them - and with this build we probably have a bunch more Zealots than usual for that purpose anyway!
If their answer to the Stargate wasn't Hydras, having your Colossi delayed isn't that problematic anyway.
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I would really like some replays/BOs from Micks or Trusty for the 1gate fast tech version.
Looks really promising.
I have struggled for some time to find a build that is quite safe, applies some pressure, doesnt get you behind economically and is not too hard to execute.
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On September 29 2011 06:12 Crow! wrote:
The Spine + Queen block is map specific - if the natural isn't right next to the ramp the Spines either don't cover the mineral side of the Hatchery so you just kill it anyway, or they don't cover the ramp and you kill the Queen who gets cornered without creep behind her. Heck, even on the better maps you can still sac a couple Zealots to kill the Queen on the ramp even with the spines poking you, but that's a gamble - if he was already going for extra Queens anyway this doesn't kill larva and so isn't worth it (unless maybe if you're planning on Stargate play).
I actually haven't had trouble vs Spines on Shattered Temple before - check your replay again to see if you could have wrapped around to the back safely. Right now Shakuras Plateau is the only map I have mentally flagged as a place where Spines have to actually be respected, but it could be that I just just haven't encountered Spines placed both properly and punctually on some other maps yet.
Still, even when you do get shut down with static defenses, at least you know his resources didn't go into mobile units just yet so you can delay cannons up in favor of teching for more mobile defenses faster, which saves you money.
Let me go out on a limb here and suggest trying out a Carrier follow-up to the Stargate play if they "answer" it with Hydras. Hydras actually suck against Carriers really bad until Infestors are out to keep the Carriers from microing, and they still only succeed in trading evenly in that case only if there aren't Zealots heading toward them - and with this build we probably have a bunch more Zealots than usual for that purpose anyway!
If their answer to the Stargate wasn't Hydras, having your Colossi delayed isn't that problematic anyway.
I generally don't go after queens as he can micro away, I will try seeing if I can [H] in a mineral line. I do agree that shakuras is really good for spines, but I FFE anyway that map.
With respect to Carrier follow up, I will do some yabot on it, but I feel I won't have enough carriers (2 minutes to build 1 carrier) in time to deal with 10-15 hydralisks and either zerglings/roaches.
Also, another risk with Stargate, is you are promoting him to drone up behind spines/queens, because he knows you can't kill him (voids are horrible vs multiple queens). But this is usually always the case anyway with SG openings, not to mention you've invested in +1 ground attack, and your army now has air units...
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I'd post the replays I got from yesterday once I get home. Still at work pretending I'm busy XD
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@Trusty:
That Carrier choice is interesting. Do you think it's possible to hide that tech from him until you get around 2 or so and pressure with just a gateway mix? Probably means skipping Voids altogether.
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On September 29 2011 06:49 Micks wrote:
@Trusty:
That Carrier choice is interesting. Do you think it's possible to hide that tech from him until you get around 2 or so and pressure with just a gateway mix? Probably means skipping Voids altogether.
Yes but it would be map specific, and you're wide open to hydra all-ins. You need 1 voidray, it's the deterrent for aggression, and to deny OL scouting etc etc.
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Now that you say it, I think a Hydra play would probably hold this aggression coupled with a couple of spines for the 1st zealot push. Since if your opponent skips Roach and counters the Zealots with Hydras instead, that Immortal play would be negated due to Hydras being light. Are there any indications from Z base if you can only scout their main (since not having obs yet) that would tell you they're going Hydras? Because usually if I see a couple of spines, I'd usually read it as a muta play.
I'll probably check that out later.
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On September 29 2011 07:50 Micks wrote:
Now that you say it, I think a Hydra play would probably hold this aggression coupled with a couple of spines for the 1st zealot push. Since if your opponent skips Roach and counters the Zealots with Hydras instead, that Immortal play would be negated due to Hydras being light. Are there any indications from Z base if you can only scout their main (since not having obs yet) that would tell you they're going Hydras? Because usually if I see a couple of spines, I'd usually read it as a muta play.
I'll probably check that out later.
Don't ever blindly make immortals. He can't have hydra's out in time to stop your 4 zealots.
If you don't see any roaches with your zealots, don't make an immortal - get an obs or warp prism to see what he's doing.
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I stop making Immortals if I don't see Roach and see static defense. That makes me read my opponent as going Muta based play. I stop Immortal production by then since I know that they would be useless.
I guess I wasn't clear on my earlier post. What I meant was that, Collos would be too late to deal with a Hydra aggression and we know that gateway units just melt to Hydras. There's no alternate option for us during this time except for an Immortal which is kind of useless against them.
Are there indications that lets you assume that he's going Hydras instead of Mutas? Obs would be too late to see this for you to be able to prepare enough for it. And you don't have access yet to Collos or Archons. Aside from turtling at best with gateway units, I'd like to get a read of this play coming.
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I think the key difference is: I dont build an Immortal at all, unless I see a roach.
My first unit is a warp prism or an observer for scouting. If I see roaches then I have the option to cancel the WP/Obs to get an immortal.
If there is no roach, I can get into his base while the lair is morphing (or even before it starts).
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Getting in is risky because you could lose your entire army just trying to do it. I rarely engage his front without Immortals to deal with spines fast. And it's almost a 100% spines would be there if he's doing either mutas or hydras.
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On September 29 2011 11:44 Micks wrote:
Getting in is risky because you could lose your entire army just trying to do it. I rarely engage his front without Immortals to deal with spines fast. And it's almost a 100% spines would be there if he's doing either mutas or hydras.
Getting in with the observer.... not my army.
You sound like you go for a blind immortal pressure to follow up your 4 zealots, I tend to secure my expansion, quickly scout and react. (Not saying which is correct). Will upload reps in a few hours
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I just have to say again, that this kind of build innovating is EXACTLY what Protoss needs at this point. It should be the duty of all Protoss players to experiment with this build in their respective leagues and help contribute their 2 cents to hammer out the details and perfect what has been started here.
Many thanks to the OP as well as all the masters level players helping refine the build. I will be experimenting on my own as well but since I'm only a Platinum scrub at this point most of what I have to contribute won't exactly be game-changing....unless it is. =)
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I hope you don't mind if I write your beginning build order down: (Pylons throughout, chrono Nexus 2x)
9 Pylon -> Scout
13 Gate
15 Assimilator
17 Forge
18 Zealot
~22 start +1 when forge finishes, chrono 3x
22 Zealot
25 Zealot (chrono)
26 Core
29 Zealot (chrono) -> move out with 4 Zealots, +1 should finish shortly after
33 Warpgate + Robo
33 Zealot
35 Pylon (low ground)
- you may throw down a 2nd assimilator around this time
36 Gate
- Cannon on low ground around this time or delay if you feel safe
37 Immortal when Robo finishes (chrono) - if we scouted Roaches, else obs or warp prism
~42 Nexus
(vs. roaches: proceed to warp in some sentries and zealots, move out with 2 immortals, get observer)
The build order seems to fit really nice. How about using the forge and upgrading +1 armor so that it finishes right before the 2nd attack? (you started it after the 2nd attack)
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One major problem i see is your lack of gateways to apply mid game pressure, and your tech is somewhat delayed. So i really don't see this working to a zerg knows what you are doing.... However feel free to correct me.
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It is nice but obviously delays your tech.
Gotta remember this is not technically a game winning build, mearly a different start.
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On September 29 2011 23:54 TolEranceNA wrote:
One major problem i see is your lack of gateways to apply mid game pressure, and your tech is somewhat delayed. So i really don't see this working to a zerg knows what you are doing.... However feel free to correct me.
I don`t see how the tech is delayed compared to other openings like 3gate FE or Forge FE.
We are on one gateways for quite some time but since we have a forge we could build cannons for defence. Most Zergs go roach, so we can then apply pressure with Immortals + Gateway units.
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ive played against this build before. pretty much all u need is 2-3 spines and some lings and u will be fine against any early zealot pressure, and if it gets to be too much u can always bring both ur queens down to help defend without ever teching to roaches or speedlings. some maps u can even make a nice little wall with spines and evo chambers.
most zergs for w/e reason skip spine crawlers. theres no reason not to build spines. with enough spines u can honestly go pure drones and defend with slow lings only and a queen or 2. i usually make a 3rd queen after my natural is up for creep spread anyway. and beleive it or not but queens do decent DPS. supported by slow lings and spines ur relativly safe and free to drone up.
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Why would you not go roaches vs this... As a Zerg you should expect a Zealot Cannon Rush or +1 Timing anyways. It's easy and countering this would be simple. Make 4-5 roaches (low economy or not, you'll be on even footing at worst, ahead probably) and have 4-5 lings in the back just to go in the mineral line or delay cannons for the roach counter attack.
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Thanks for the replays, Trusty! I'm linking to them in the OP.
@Comment regarding not chasing queens: 90% of the time I agree with you, however, if the Queen is on the ramp she doesn't have Creep behind her and so won't be able to micro, so killing the Queen is at least an option there. Whether or not it's a smart option is another question and obviously situational.
@Ballistixz: while Spines are inexpensive larva-wise, spending that many minerals early enough to have enough Spines done in time to cover both the ramp and the back of your base when the Zealots arrive isn't trivial. It's doable, and on some maps it's easier than others, but the Protoss can just walk away knowing he's safe to power hard, putting him no worse than even with you when you hit the midgame and it comes time to expand.
@kineSiS: yeah, that's the basic Zerg strategy of most of my games that don't turn into free wins. I find I can hold, and it's not a terrible position for either player.
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while Spines are inexpensive larva-wise, spending that many minerals early enough to have enough Spines done in time to cover both the ramp and the back of your base when the Zealots arrive isn't trivial. It's doable, and on some maps it's easier than others, but the Protoss can just walk away knowing he's safe to power hard, putting him no worse than even with you when you hit the midgame and it comes time to expand.
doesnt matter. all u need is at the very least 2 spines if ur doing slow lings and 1 spine +3-4 roaches and no more then that. i agree that roaches are a better alternative tho then lings for zealots. as for the problem of it not getting done in time then its just a matter of building a spine in ur main as soon as ur pool is done and walking it down to ur nat once the creep is up. expensive yes it is that early in the game, but u will be safe to drone once all the defenses are ready to deal with the lots.
if the toss walks a way then zerg can just drone up and get a 3rd if he wants. no reason not to do it. zerg does not need to over react/over comit to this kind of pressure and the toss knows he doesnt need to over commit to the push.
u have to realize that toss will be still on 1 gate and no warp gate tech for awhile. there is no reason not to get a fast 3rd while he is trying to get his eco going.
as long as u have 3-4 roaches or even 5 roaches toss WILL NOT try to go for the kill with only 1 gate ways worth of zealots. this means that u spent only spent at most 6 larva (5 roaches +1 spine or u can skip the spine altogether if ur getting that many roaches really) and ur free to drone as much as u want.
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On September 30 2011 02:36 Ballistixz wrote:
... if the toss walks a way then zerg can just drone up and get a 3rd if he wants. no reason not to do it.
I can think of a reason why not to take a third just yet: there's five +1 Zealots out on the map, with more tech and units coming up in the near future. Spines secure existing positions, they don't help much for expanding. (If you have Roaches AND Spines out this fast, Protoss is feeling great about the damage he's done to you without needing to actually kill anything).
Droning, on the other hand, is something you definitely can do. Protoss's job in this situation is to get his next timing attack ready for the time when Zerg doesn't want to delay his third any longer - meanwhile, the Spines sit at home, idle. In my experience, I think the post-early-Spine-Crawler situation is slightly in favor of the Protoss, though not by much if the map is one that allows a 2-Crawler defence.
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On September 30 2011 02:47 Crow! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2011 02:36 Ballistixz wrote:
... if the toss walks a way then zerg can just drone up and get a 3rd if he wants. no reason not to do it. I can think of a reason why not to take a third just yet: there's five +1 Zealots out on the map, with more tech and units coming up in the near future. Spines secure existing positions, they don't help much for expanding. (If you have Roaches AND Spines out this fast, Protoss is feeling great about the damage he's done to you already). Droning, on the other hand, is something you definitely can do. Protoss's job in this situation is to get his next timing attack ready for the time when Zerg doesn't want to delay his third any longer - meanwhile, the Spines sit at home, idle. In my experience, I think the post-early-Spine-Crawler situation is slightly in favor of the Protoss, though not by much if the map is one that allows a 2-Crawler defence.
theres 5 +1 zealots on the map but there is also roaches from the initial pressure on the map to. do some good kiting and ur 3rd should be safe untill ur able to get some spines in that location. ive done it before. just get overlords out on the map and the watch towers to spot where the zealots are headed. if he is headed for ur 3rd move ur roaches to defend it untill its up and running. 5 zealots are not a threat to properly microed roaches that early in game. because of how the zerg macro machanic works, u will still be ahead in worker count even if u spend 6-7 larva on roaches. spending that much larva is trivial as well because once the 3rd is up ur larva production will shoot throuht the roof and the 3rd will be instantly saturated if ur good on ur injects. its honestly a small price to pay to defend that 3rd from the zealots because once your 3rd is up ur eco will easily shoot beyond that of toss.
i doubt toss will over commit to any kind of real atk considering he will be on 1-2 gates for awhile without warp gate tech.
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I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying Zerg is doing. It's Roaches first now? Any defenses you make beyond 3-4 Roaches are just overkill and they let Protoss get ahead of you, so what are the Spines for? I was responding to you assuming your point was that Spine Crawlers were a good way to deflect the inital Zealots in lieu of Roaches; if you're not using Spines for that then we've been talking about different things so we'll get nowhere fast.
Roach deflection of the pressure is exactly what this build assumes (to the point where Micks prefers to just counter them blindly). Check out the various replays of that situation from myself and the Masters league players (who prefer a more tech focused version) and see how things work out in practice, so theorycraft can be avoided altogether.
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On September 30 2011 03:24 Crow! wrote:
I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying Zerg is doing. It's Roaches first now? Any defenses you make beyond 3-4 Roaches are just overkill and they let Protoss get ahead of you, so what are the Spines for? I was responding to you assuming your point was that Spine Crawlers were a good way to deflect the inital Zealots in lieu of Roaches; if you're not using Spines for that then we've been talking about different things so we'll get nowhere fast.
Roach deflection of the pressure is exactly what this build assumes (to the point where Micks prefers to just counter them blindly). Check out the various replays of that situation from myself and the Masters league players (who prefer a more tech focused version) and see how things work out in practice, so theorycraft can be avoided altogether.
i was reffering to if the zerg went roaches as a reponse because i agreed they are better then lings in larva cost and efficiency to deal with the zealots. so im basing it off of roaches for right now.
the spines are there for added defense. its only 1 drone and 100 minerals for 1 spine. theres absolutly no reason.not to do it. the 3-4 roaches is also added MOBILE defense for the 3rd. u can add on a few more roaches if u need to in order to make sure your fast 3rd is safe from the zealots. once the 3rd is up u can always up root the spines from ur nat and move it to ur 3rd if u need to.
once the 3rd is up u will be ahead of of a 2 base toss. so no its not really over kill.
theres also the ling spine alternative to deal with it which was what i said initially. if u go this route and u dont do make a 3rd then it will lead into a nice hydra ling timing and the toss usually wont have colo tech in time and will just plain die. u can actually do the hydra ling timing even if u made roaches at the start because usually a toss will make immortals in response to the roaches
im not exactly sure what u dont understand about this tho.
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I don't know what point you are trying to make. If you have perfect scouting information or know the build exactly and then produce exactly what you need to defend I guess it should be possible for Zerg to get ahead.
Of course it`s not an imba build, but I don't really see an easy hard counter.
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This is a weak hybrid build. You may have 5 zealots out but upon scouting it you don't even need to do the standard IM Zerg FFE response where you drone hard making no units off 3 bases. You will easily have roaches out before your third and still be economically ahead.
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On September 30 2011 04:23 00Visor wrote:
I don't know what point you are trying to make. If you have perfect scouting information or know the build exactly and then produce exactly what you need to defend I guess it should be possible for Zerg to get ahead.
Of course it`s not an imba build, but I don't really see an easy hard counter.
thats the point. the build it self is extremly perdicatable. when u see 5+ zealots all +1 u know exactly what the mindset of the protoss is. im speaking from a masters perspective here and this particular build i have encountered a number of times in the past, but now its rarely used because it doesnt really put that significant of a lead.
the build leads u open to roach hydra or ling hydra timings which usually kill the toss every time becaue the tosses natural response after going this particular build (from my experience) is immortals in order to blind counter roaches. its extremly predicatble. its not a bad build, but its not a uber good build either. zerg loose to it purely because of poor judgement and lack of scouting.
anyway my main point that im trying to make about this build is
A) its predictable
B) u can defend against it with relative ease
C) it doesnt put the zerg behind if the zerg has a clue on whats going on and has proper scouting using overseers/changelings.
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Hi,
@ everyone saying it's predictable...
I don't build immortals unless there are roaches.
You're going to stay on lings vs +1 zealots? that's fine by me, no need for cannons. Warp prism coming to warp in at your 3rd
Played some more games last night, lost 2 to baneling cheese, but I think that was miss micro on my part.
Keep dying to muta's in mid game, but that is no change from any other opening I do. Starting to think that SG is a better than a Robo...... but only for the fact I'm scared of mutalisks.
Need to see if I can hit a timing where I can break a spined-up 2base Lair (infester/Muta). This is by no means the only solution, but as a player I see no way to deal with competent muta harassment + cross expanding, without already having a Stargate.
Talking to other protoss, and listening to STOG, it seems that this is a common issue anyway - if you're not already going stargate, or not already doing an all-in 2base timing. then you're going to slowly die to muta.
Edit: If I go against spined natural & Lair before 3rd, I will attempt to add gates, and Warp Prism into the main.
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If mutas are killing you, you might want to try going the Templar path first. It gives you access to Blink, Archons, and HTs, all excellent for dealing with Mutalisks. Not to mention early +2 if you think you're in a good spot and can afford it.
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i ALWAYS welcome stargate play because it makes my hydras that much more effective and that much more useful in the match up. there is litterally nothing the toss can do to stop it because he oppened star gate.
the best part is hydras are usually the last thing a toss will suspect and it usually catches them off guard from my experience. even more fun when u hide the hydra den in a corner of the map where a ovie is spreading creep somewhere.
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The best strategies are ones that don't rely on surprising your opponent.
As I touched on before, if you drop the SG instead of a Robo, your next main decision should be 'how am I going to deal with hydralisks, if they come'
If you do confirm Hydras, your midgame plan should allow you to have a decent timely response to deal with small amounts of hydra/roach or hydra/ling, untill you can get collosus.
I believe either blink, or charge. I feel charge is risky - you need to somehow get surface area on the hydras, whether it's by a flank or whatever. Charge is obviously better against ling/hydra, and blink better against roach/hydra.
I have only dropped the SG a handful of times, and I haven't given much time to fleshing out a mid-game follow up for it. I am still leaning towards Robo, especially if I can sort out a mid-game push that will allow me to heavily pressure, or kill 2base muta.
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On September 29 2011 23:26 00Visor wrote:I hope you don't mind if I write your beginning build order down: (Pylons throughout, chrono Nexus 2x) 9 Pylon -> Scout 13 Gate 15 Assimilator 17 Forge 18 Zealot ~22 start +1 when forge finishes, chrono 3x 22 Zealot 25 Zealot (chrono) 26 Core 29 Zealot (chrono) -> move out with 4 Zealots, +1 should finish shortly after 33 Warpgate + Robo 33 Zealot 35 Pylon (low ground) - you may throw down a 2nd assimilator around this time 36 Gate - Cannon on low ground around this time or delay if you feel safe 37 Immortal when Robo finishes (chrono) - if we scouted Roaches, else obs or warp prism ~42 Nexus (vs. roaches: proceed to warp in some sentries and zealots, move out with 2 immortals, get observer) The build order seems to fit really nice. How about using the forge and upgrading +1 armor so that it finishes right before the 2nd attack? (you started it after the 2nd attack)
Thanks for that, made me realise how un-crisp the opening still is! I feel sorry that you had to try and make notes off of it hahaha...
I will put some more effort into making the robo opening very clean and crisp. There is an extremely awkward moment (as you may have noticed) - that occurs as my zealots are walking to his base. (Do I drop nexus now? Do I wait to see what he has?) etc etc.
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hi, brozerg(but i play toss offrace) here. nice build, nice write-up, i am acutally glad you post this. it is actually a quite good build similar to what ive been doing recently on ladder(as toss) which got me 100%winrate lately against FE or 14/14. and as a zerg player i considred thinking what could i do against these builds that hang around the idea of early zealot pressure on my expo. here's what i discovered:
I'd like to point out a couple weaknesses to your build(general ideas)
1.you have not considered fast pools. which you'll notice kinda rape this and are viable on every map cept for tal-darim(well 6-7 pool still does)
2.this particular gateway/forge is extremly weak to hydra/ling all-ins that are potentially developped from the 14/14 opening.
3. forces you to delay your tech giving any early pool an instant win to zerg.
having said that i need to clarify the early pools cause it is not known much yet. i think aXa made a post on this:
+ Show Spoiler +
9pool
10 ovy
10 6-lings
13 queen (+2drones)
15 queen
17extrator trick
18 ovy
when ovy pops a full round-o-drones + extractor
around 20 start expo + roach warren(to defend any zealot pressure as a payback)
etc.(you can do most likely anything from now)
this build basically will force your forge to be cancelled(or itll die) as the usual good response is 2 gate or extrachrono on zealots + probe pull. the main goal of this build is delaying tech while having scouting info + early expand + incredible early creepspread + having opportunity to make additional dmg like drones pickups.
I made this build to prevent any sort of this early zealot bullshit agression(ive got mad alot facing this on master league ladder dont take it personal, ive used it alot to test things out) whitout getting anywhere "behind" facing other builds.
I know there are ways to adjust(like not 13gate lolol) these types of builds to early pools but they wont be as effective but still viable.
ill post some replays of this when i have the opportunity to face this build. but start thinkin of adjustments now - its clear even without replays that this build wont be as good against early pool.
i didnt want to post this to discredit or anything. its verywell written and built up with good replay support. as zerg im giving you feedback on what this build lacks and you should take good note. and sorry for the english/typing mistakes; i speak french. gl on your ladder
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Awesome guide! A quick question - If you scout the zerg expanding and he has no overlord to spot your probe, do you cannon him and delay the zealot push? Or just wait and attack him with the zealots.
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IGN/HD starcraft cast some pretty interesting progames that is similar to this build, but starts with forge expand. Still includes a +1 zealot push followed by tech switch.
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
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Anyone else been using this build? I just got owned on Nezarim, I think because I committed to the build and we were in far positions. My first wave did no damage (spines at nat and main) and I followed up with a zealot drop that killed a pool and spire but not many workers. Long story short he gets 24 mutas and I go blink stalker/archon but don't have enough and get slaughtered.
Any thoughts on how to switch tactics if we scout far positions?
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I won GM player "ELVIS" with this build... just for a pro tip that this build is possible to polish so well that it really paids off.
Ofcourse i made my own twist for midgame but still the opening is good if you can use it right.
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Almost forgot about this thread, my PC broke down and all my favorites got wiped out
I was playing around with this build everytime I vs Z on the ladder. The only issue I've had with this so far are banelings. All other builds, I could react to nicely.
Hydras and I could keep pressure on with gateway units until I get Collos out or HT/DT/Archons.With him trying to defend with Hydras, that means he's delaying his 3rd.
Roaches and I could just keep those Immortals for an easy win.
Muta Ling and it would kill him before he gets a decent number of Mutas. Zealots>Lings
The only issues I'm having with it are 1 base plays or 2 base baneling plays. The rest, I could manage easily. With this build, it limits my BO losses to a few builds by Z that's not popular in the current meta game. I can honestly say I only lose with this build because I suck and haven't implemented it properly. It's not a weak build at all. You don't need to rely on surprises because Z can easily scout you. Once they scout you, it would probably be too late to switch to a 1 base play optimally. So they're forced with 2 base plays. And because that's the case, you'd only have issues with baneling plays.
Just my 2 cents.
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And as for the spine crawlers you've mentioned earlier, if you get to build the spines before the zealots are in your natural, that would slow down your production a WHOLE lot. Less drones, less minerals = less economy. Especially since it's during the early stages. This would leave you economically behind and the zealots need not do damage to you because it had already been done by you making less drones and more defense.
If you build them so that it would be halfway done when the zealots arrive and try to delay as much as possible until they're done, then that's the best defense that would leave you at par or even ahead economically. That requires good micro from Z to pull off.
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On October 06 2011 05:10 Micks wrote:Almost forgot about this thread, my PC broke down and all my favorites got wiped out I was playing around with this build everytime I vs Z on the ladder. The only issue I've had with this so far are banelings. All other builds, I could react to nicely. Hydras and I could keep pressure on with gateway units until I get Collos out or HT/DT/Archons.With him trying to defend with Hydras, that means he's delaying his 3rd. Roaches and I could just keep those Immortals for an easy win. Muta Ling and it would kill him before he gets a decent number of Mutas. Zealots>Lings The only issues I'm having with it are 1 base plays or 2 base baneling plays. The rest, I could manage easily. With this build, it limits my BO losses to a few builds by Z that's not popular in the current meta game. I can honestly say I only lose with this build because I suck and haven't implemented it properly. It's not a weak build at all. You don't need to rely on surprises because Z can easily scout you. Once they scout you, it would probably be too late to switch to a 1 base play optimally. So they're forced with 2 base plays. And because that's the case, you'd only have issues with baneling plays. Just my 2 cents.
Rofl I came back here to say that the only thing that crushes me is banelings too!.
Destroys your push, and you're left with no sentries (which is what you want vs banelings).
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Yeah, fortunately though it's not part of the current metagame
They see zealots and they'll get roaches. I think that's the only weakness of this build and the only workaround I can do there is when I see ALOT of lings even though I have +1 zealots, I will need to decide if:
1. The player is good and he knows that baneling would crush this. (This makes me try to get as much sentries as I could, really hard to defend still since WG tech won't be done in time and probably just barely enough sentries to defend once the push comes, doable but hard to pull off)
2. The player is bad and didn't see the +1 on the zealots. (Play normally)
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On October 06 2011 06:33 Micks wrote:Yeah, fortunately though it's not part of the current metagame They see zealots and they'll get roaches. I think that's the only weakness of this build and the only workaround I can do there is when I see ALOT of lings even though I have +1 zealots, I will need to decide if: 1. The player is good and he knows that baneling would crush this. (This makes me try to get as much sentries as I could, really hard to defend still since WG tech won't be done in time and probably just barely enough sentries to defend once the push comes, doable but hard to pull off) 2. The player is bad and didn't see the +1 on the zealots. (Play normally)
That's true, although personally I'm gonna stop doing this exact build - it has a hard counter (banelings), and our build is too easily scouted. It would be fine if it didn't have a hard counter.
It was fun though! perhaps something to pull out in a BoX
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Awesome build/guide dude, just won a ladder game with it. You can tell the zerg is thinking, "wtf is he doing" haha thanks so much.
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AegonC,
DUDE YOUR QUOTE!!
AMEN
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Yup, baneling definitely hard counters this. Even if you're able to defend it, you need precision FF and micro to be able to fend it off. Just like how MMA defends on his TvZ (1bunker+scvs vs roachling all-in by July).
For me, if I get an impression from my games that I could pull off a perfect defense most of the time, I'm going to practice this build so I could get a solid opener vs Z. It would be very useful especially in tournaments when you could pull this out as one of your openers.
But yes, I wouldn't call this a standard opener since it has a hard counter. It would be a nice "opener" for you that you could pull out every now and then once you've mastered it though.
It is a good solid build that doesn't die to anything aside from 1 base play from Z (which doesn't usually happen) or 2 base baneling (the hard counter). If you could master the defense for 2 base baneling with this build then you could definitely use this in tournaments.
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On October 06 2011 07:45 child7of7christ wrote:AegonC, DUDE YOUR QUOTE!! AMEN
Haha its always awesome to find a Brother in Christ on TL :D
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On October 06 2011 08:48 AegonC wrote:Haha its always awesome to find a Brother in Christ on TL :D
Indeed, i wasn't sure if there was anyone who believes in Jesus on SC lol,
made me glad though to see your quote and you
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Sorry to bump an older thread, but I had to personally thank you Crow! I really like this build for close positions and it has gotten me some awesome results!
Here's a recent replay with some shocking results... good times!
PvZ Gateway Forge Carnage
Final tally of how many kills vs how many zealots I lost... + Show Spoiler +53 kills and no zealots fall (if i did my math right)
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On October 22 2011 11:54 OckhamzRazor wrote:Sorry to bump an older thread, but I had to personally thank you Crow! I really like this build for close positions and it has gotten me some awesome results! Here's a recent replay with some shocking results... good times! PvZ Gateway Forge CarnageFinal tally of how many kills vs how many zealots I lost... + Show Spoiler +53 kills and no zealots fall (if i did my math right)
Roffles, my jaw dropped at the end, and probably so did his. That was a massacre.
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I love this build. Thanks for sharing it! I have been outright killing people and making them angry. It is a really cool way to expand without investing many resources on some maps where ffe is not the greatest. I personally like to get a stargate after securing the natural because it seems like people always want to rush muta when they see my core is so delayed.
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This is outright the second dumbest build I've ever done (the first being Kiwikaki's FFE -> 2gate zealot -> 2 stargate before WG), but it's hilarious because it works. If they don't go roach they die, if they do go roach I normally just go 7gate stalker and win because they're on 2 base. I'm sure it doesn't work against smart people who go banelings, but holy crap, a very fun build to play around with  the scary part is the roach counterattack when WG is so late but with good simcity/cannon placement if you live through it the game is yours!
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On October 06 2011 20:40 child7of7christ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2011 08:48 AegonC wrote:On October 06 2011 07:45 child7of7christ wrote:AegonC, DUDE YOUR QUOTE!! AMEN Haha its always awesome to find a Brother in Christ on TL :D Indeed, i wasn't sure if there was anyone who believes in Jesus on SC lol, made me glad though to see your quote and you
Why to believe in Christ when Xel-nagas have created him? (=Ironicly said you are totaly out of topic and if you wanna ... about Christ, go to church bro, or send that second guy message, and do not spam this forum like total dumb)
Back to topic, this strategy looks sorta wierd, maybe that will work. If Banelings bust is scouted, I think its as easy to defend as normal expand, you just have to cut probes...(cutting probes against all-in is required most times, when all-in is not screwed by one who preform it) but problem is that zerglings deny scouting EZ, once they are out, and it is really hard to scout anything until later-phases of middle game (obs, hallu). I will test this build, it looks kinda solid, but what I dont like about it is that you will really have to spend lot of money on cannons if enemy is doing something cheesy, in order to defend, instead of stalker which will be pretty delayed... I will need to give try really...
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EPT
