[G] PvZ -- Ultimate Solution: Warp Prisms

Noumena

United States85 Posts

August 27 2011 08:55 GMT

Intro

Just to get this out of the way, this is my first guide and in no way will be perfect. So, with that said, I will get into the reasoning behind the build! As of late, I have noticed a giant swing in the PvZ match-up, in favor of the Zerg. Mostly I believe this is because of something I like to call, the "Deathball Syndrome," kind of like the 1 Control Group Syndrome. Hearing the cries of Protoss players whom I looked up to saying "Zerg is OP" etc, has saddened me. Thus, the result of my build!

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The premise of this build

Concept

The idea of this build is very simple: FFE (Forge Fast Expand), have complete dominance of the game with lots of aggression and a quick 3rd/4th. Since the opening gives you adequate scouting knowledge, and possibly serious econ pressure, you are able to adapt perfectly to what your opponent is doing to achieve this. The versatility of this build is outstanding, and quench whatever flavor of unit composition you wish to do in the game. However, this build is for aggressive players with multi-tasking capabilities to some extent. Oh, and all of this (mostly) without Sentries, I don't like them

The Opening

First off, I don't like numbers when it comes to build orders. They are very restricting, so whatever I put down below will be a rough timing, but the order of which the buildings/units should be made is key.

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9 Pylon ** AT YOUR NATURAL ** (SCOUT)
13 Forge (This is the safest timing)
15 Nexus **IF SAFE**
16 Forge **IF YOU DID NOT 13 FORGE**
16 Pylon
18 Gateway
18 Cannon
18 Assimilator
-------------------------
This is where I don't have the exact numbers down, as the order is more important than the supply.
-------------------------
First 100gas: +1 Weapons Upgrade (Chronoboost this 2-3 Times)
2nd Gate
Zealot (Chronoboost when possible)
Core
Zealot x3 (ATTACK) -- Continue to make Zealots
Warpgate
Robotics Facility
2nd Gas
+1 Armor
3rd/4th Gate ASAP
Twilight Council

Scarier than a bunker rush

The Attack

Now, you should have attacked at roughly the 7 or 8 minute mark. This is generally when the Zerg has made obvious tech structures, or a fast third expansion. If he has not predicted your attack, then you will be able to do severe damage, scout, or deny his third. Also, +1 Weapons should finish before, right as you attack, or even during the attack. Zealots will be two shotting lings with this upgrade. If for some reason he has prepared for your attack, do not worry, you will still have scouted what he is doing !

What to look for and how to prepare
-Roaches or Roach Warren
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The key is too look for how many roaches the Zerg is producing. Usually for proper defense, Zerg's will get a couple of roaches and then continue on macroing. However, they can always do a counter attack and this means you must throw down 2-3 more cannons immediately. If he counter attacks and you only have Zealots, you will outright lose. Since you already have a good econ, this will not affect you as much. Roaches are a good sign, considering you already have a Robotics Facility and can easily make Immortals.

-Lots o' Lings
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An even better sign! If he is on two base and has a plethora of Zerglings waiting for your Zealots, this usually means he will be doing 2 base Infestor play OR 2 base Mutalisk OR a Baneling bust. Since you got that +1 Weapons Upgrade early on, your Zealots will be 2-shotting his lings. I will go into what to transition into in the next section. To handle a possible Baneling bust, you'll want proper scouting early on since it can come before your attack. Have a good sim city, as always, and produce sentries if possible.

-Fast Third
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You will pretty much deny his 3rd. Typically the Zerg won't have enough Lings to hold off the 3/4 Zealots AND take a fast 3rd. Stick close to the mineral line, and positioning is key.

-Fast Mutalisks
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Mutalisks have seen an uprising lately, and without a real clear solution on how to handle them, Zerg's have been destroying many Protoss bretheren as a result. Your best way to handle Mutalisks is Cannons/Blink Stalkers/Archons/HT w/ storm. The Zerg will do anything it can to prevent you from leaving your base by counter attacking the moment you do. Cover all over your fronts, throw down 2-3 cannons in each mineral line the moment you spawn a Spire/Muta, and start transitioning into Blink. Play defensive and cover your fronts, while scouting for hidden expands.

I'm sorry IdrA...

Transition

This is the part of the build that I love the most. It is incredibly versatile, and whatever unit composition you want to get will most likely work, as long as it counters what the Zerg is doing (ex: can't go mass Zealots vs Mutas...) However, there is one unit you must get for this build to be optimal. The Warp Prism. You should make roughly 2-3 of these wonderful units, and have them spread out over the Zerg's base. (ex:One in the corner of his main, one at his natural, one infront of his natural etc.)

-Execution of the Warp Prism harass
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Works best if paired with a frontal push, but not necessary! Zealots work best in tight corners when facing Lings, and there is no better place than a mineral line. Your 4gates should be in Warp Gate mode at this time as well. Load up 4 Zealots or 3 Zealots and a sentry before taking off into the Zerg base, drop them in the mineral line and immediately enter Warping Mode. Warp in nothing but zealots at this point. Micro. If you decide to add in a Sentry to your Warp Prism harass, then unload at the ramp of the main to FF. Also, if you want to get fancy and decide to transition into High Templars, throw in a couple of Archons or HT with storm. Don't stop harassing, unless you get completely shut out.

Depending on what you see from the Warp Prism harass, will help you decide what you want to transition into even more. Since you have all the ground Tier 2 paths covered at this point, it should be fairly easy. Make sure you are CONSTANTLY upgrading as well. I generally like to securd a third after the attack and once I feel safe enough to do so. Around the 11 minute mark is as good timing.

Colossus + Blink Stalker
-Fairly cookie cutter, but works well. Personally I don't enjoy Colossus just like Sentries, but everyone has their own flavor of the day. Works best against Roach/Hydra compositions, and Colossi are great late game vs Brood Lords

Chargelot + Archon + Immortal
-Now this transition is my absolute favorite. It works exceptionally well vs Roach/Infestor compositions. Feel free to add in High Templar to feedback any infestors. Archon Warp Prism drops also work wonders. If you just see Ling/Infestor, then add additional Gateways, remove the Immortal from the mix.

Blink Stalker + HTs + Archons
-This is the unit composition that I suggested to obtain vs Mutalisks. It is very versatile, and the Stalkers are a little less desposable than the Zealots, but you can harass and be very mobile as well. Don't be afraid to use 4 stalkers in a Warp Prism either with this, since 4 Stalkers one shot a Drone.

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And not one Stalker or Colossus was made that day..

Replays

These are a variety of replays, most of them being during practice sessions.

Old Replays
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Patch 1.3 Replays
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Patch 1.4 Replays

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http://www.mediafire.com/?as7v2s22m77ecfk
http://www.mediafire.com/?2ctc2qwqa123l74
http://www.mediafire.com/?qwygdao14ui1kbh
http://www.mediafire.com/?uk78q7x5m2771m1

Early Pressure
http://www.mediafire.com/?9nbhz5147phwjhl

- Notes about this replay: I see the heavy ling count in the beginning with my initial probe, leading me to believe he is going to do a semi all-in attack. Once I realize this, I scout with my probe and notice the Roaches. I build extra cannons and try to deny any lings from getting into my mineral lines to the best of my ability. After the roach/ling push is cleaned up, I feel very comfortable at this time economically, but my army is weak. As a result, I decide to Observer first to scout his tech/unit structure, and then an Immortal since I know he has roaches. I do the Warp Prism harass to the best of my ability, and constantly am denying him thirds as a result of the harass.

Overall, notice the map control I have because of proxy pylons, observers, Warp Prisms, and simply taking control over the Xel'Naga. He is contained on two base the whole game and gets into very poor engagements as a result of the lack of vision/map control.

Hopefully this will help you Protoss players get an idea of my thoughts/decision making and better improve your games

Newer Replays
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- This pack contains just two replays of me on the KR server.
http://www.mediafire.com/?q3k7670201z3xv8

Conclusion

This build is all about the Warp Prism harass and mobility of Protoss units. Although most are slow, the ability to warp anywhere on the map is amazing. Upgraded Protoss units are the bane of Zerg, period. Take your third when you feel most comfortable, and never give up your harassment until you know you have done enough damage. Even late game Warp Prism harass works wonders vs the immobile Infestor/Brood army. Just think of a Warp Prism as a flying Pylon. How could you go wrong?

Enjoy!

Edit: I forgot to add, I am High Masters/GM, so it works in high level play. Meaning I play people who are in GM and High Masters.

Edit 2: Added more Replays.+ Show Spoiler +

Edit 3: Updated the OP

fenner

United Kingdom163 Posts

August 27 2011 09:04 GMT

After losing to this opener multiple times I can vouch for it. From a Zerg point of view it takes a high level of control to be able to defend against this even if you're just on 2 base and you're completely blind the whole time with them controlling the pace of the game.

If the warp prism changes go through with the patch, this build will be insane as targeting down prisms with queens will be much harder.

skatbone

United States1005 Posts

August 27 2011 09:25 GMT

Given that you don't like sentries and collosus, I'm wondering how you respond to a 2-base hydra attack on your wall, or a hydra-ling-nydus into your main.

I ask this not to discount your build, but out of genuine curiosity. I've encountered this a number of times at my lowly diamond level when I FFE.

Get one warp prism while building a robo bay?

And how about versus fast spire builds?

Again, I'm not discounting, just wondering how you handle the other options options (besides roach warren, lots of lings, and fast third) that a zerg has.

I have tried warp prism play before, but never with multiple prism. Great idea.

Noumena

United States85 Posts

August 27 2011 09:38 GMT

My apologies, I should have added those two in, considering one of my replay kind of shows the 2-base hydra push, although it has roaches. Generally I like to have Charge and Archons by the time the push comes, assuming I did an okay job during my harass / Warp Prism push , it will come at around the same time I get charge/archons.

Actually, I have never experienced a Hydra/Nydus strategy. Spread your Pylons all around your base for vision, and 5 probes will be able to kill the Nydus before any units spawn. Again, the initial harass/damage should delay this quite a bit.

For Mutas, you already have the forge, so a single Cannon at each mineral line will hold off any heavy harassment, and Blink Stalkers with a sentry for Guardian Shield works wonders, especially since you should have +1 Armor by then.

Archons also do well vs Mutas, basically a Thor with bigger? splash and a faster attack speed.

eteran

Germany83 Posts

August 27 2011 10:18 GMT

Looking at the PTR changes this looks very promising. Could you explain please what your thought process behind getting +1 armor over +2 weapons is? Usually Zealot / Archon / Immortal centric builds favor getting 2/0 really quick.

fanvadmeck

Sweden112 Posts

August 27 2011 10:59 GMT

May I ask why you didn't scout in the first replay? You should always scout at 9 right?

userstupidname

Sweden272 Posts

August 27 2011 11:11 GMT

FINALLY

protoss take this to heart from a zerg

I have rambled on this forum on protoss to use the damn warpprism
Hopefully protoss idiocy will end when people from your own group propagates for it >.<

Excellent post

User was banned for this post.

Sn0wM4

Bulgaria68 Posts

August 27 2011 11:39 GMT

Wait you are High Masters or GM?I hate when people do that "I am High lower league/higher league".Not like it matters really.Very nice and well thought out style I am going to be trying this one out later.

NeonFox

2373 Posts

August 27 2011 11:40 GMT

Edit : My bad for not reading all the answers before posting

me_viet

Australia1350 Posts

August 27 2011 12:12 GMT

#10

9 Pylon ** AT YOUR NATURAL **
13 Forge **IF CLOSE SPAWN/EARLY POOL**
15 Nexus **IF SAFE**
16 Forge **IF YOU DID NOT 13 FORGE** (Scout at this time)
16 Pylon
18 Assimilator

Lolwut, how do you decide whether to Forge first or nexus first if you don't scout till 16? oO

Do'nt you have to pylon scout if you intend to forge FE or nex first of some kind?

Noumena

United States85 Posts

August 27 2011 15:23 GMT

#11

You don't necessarily have to scout at 9 after your Pylon to see if you should Forge or Nexus first. Although, you don't have to follow the opening exactly and can scout at 9 or 16, your choice

If you see a very early Drone on a 4 player map, then you can assume he is doing something that requires he see exactly what you're doing, and is close spawn. Same thing goes with seeing an Overlord already in your base before you even have a chance to make a forge, generally means he is close spawn.

On the flip side, if you don't see anything or a drone scout until 16 supply, you can safely assume he is not going to be early pooling you.

As for the +1 Armor, you won't have your Twilight Council done before +1 finishes, and might as well just get it while your Forge is idle. I guess the timing of when I said to get +1 Armor is a bit misleading, i'll fix that

rexbo88

United States9 Posts

August 27 2011 18:04 GMT

#12

First off I'd like to say that I've had a great deal of success with this build when I tried it out today. It really gives you the ability to start off with strong macro AND pressure the zerg player, which most ffe builds wont allow you to do.

The one thing I'm wondering though is how would you go about holding off 1-2 base allins from the zerg? (7 roach rush, roach speedling). It seems like with the limited amount of gas you can only make cannons/zealots to defend. Are you able to hold roach rushes with this build or will it die due to lack of stalker/sentry?

Noumena

United States85 Posts

August 27 2011 18:42 GMT

#13

Usually you won't find a Zerg doing a 7 RR vs a FFE, but if they do however, the best way is to make 3 Cannons just to be on the safe side, you'll pretty much win from there. Same idea goes for a Roach/Ling all-in where typically a push of roaches with very few lings comes, which you let you cannons take care of, and with your wall off the reinforcing lings will be cleaned up by Zealots.

You can delay your Robotics Facility for a sentry if necessary, but I suggest just getting a few extra cannons as they are always useful.

Glad it is working out for you

Meff

Italy287 Posts

August 27 2011 19:18 GMT

#14

On August 28 2011 00:23 Noumena wrote:On the flip side, if you don't see anything or a drone scout until 16 supply, you can safely assume he is not going to be early pooling you.

Careful. An 11 overpool can delay the 14th and 15th drone to have the option to punish a nexus first. I believe you risk a BO loss with this.

On August 27 2011 18:04 fenner wrote:
After losing to this opener multiple times I can vouch for it. From a Zerg point of view it takes a high level of control to be able to defend against this even if you're just on 2 base and you're completely blind the whole time with them controlling the pace of the game.

Actually, zerg should have almost perfect scouting of this for a long while.
No ranged units get made for a long while, so your drone stays alive to see the timing of the second gas in the main. A ling scout at the front tells you that there's a forge upgrading something, with chrono used on it. You should also be able to see two gateways before the core, which means that P wants a non-negligible amount of zealots.
This points to a +1 timing push, presumably zealot-heavy. With this information, deflecting it shouldn't be a big problem. The rest is where deviations come into play, but that partially depends on *how* you defend the initial push (mostly... roaches or queen/crawler?)

Nyast

Belgium554 Posts

August 27 2011 20:50 GMT

#15

Cool, I particularly like the 2-gate zealots pressure, that's forcing a lot of lings from the Zerg and if you can surprise him, you can do tremendous damage with them.

As ffor the prisms, the idea is cool and it seems to work well but wouldn't it be an auto loss versus a Zerg that goes mutas ? Do you have any replay with mutas on 2 bases ? It sounds like they'd arrive at the same timing your harass starts.

rexbo88

United States9 Posts

August 27 2011 21:43 GMT

#16

On August 28 2011 05:50 Nyast wrote:
Cool, I particularly like the 2-gate zealots pressure, that's forcing a lot of lings from the Zerg and if you can surprise him, you can do tremendous damage with them.

As ffor the prisms, the idea is cool and it seems to work well but wouldn't it be an auto loss versus a Zerg that goes mutas ? Do you have any replay with mutas on 2 bases ? It sounds like they'd arrive at the same timing your harass starts.

From my understanding, most 2 base muta play involves stockpiling 1000 mins and gas and then popping 10 mutas all at once. I'm not sure but I think the mutas end up poping out at 10 minutes and the first warp prism arrives at 9 minutes. And I'm sure it will be delayed even more with the amount of resources and larva spent on making lings to defend against +1 zealots. Once the mutas do come out your harass will most likely be shut down but you already have the TC ready to work on blink. The build might be less effective against a muta opening but I woulden't say its an auto loss.

Nyast

Belgium554 Posts

August 27 2011 22:13 GMT

#17

Dunno, I just lost to it, my first try, and he didn't over-react to my attack ( I even surprised him, had 5 zealots when he scouted only 2 ). He got his 3 first mutas by 8'30, and had 12 around 9'. In that game I only opened with early pressure and transitionned something else entirely ( stargates ), but timing wise he would have had 12 mutas on the field by the time my prism would have arrived in his base if I had followed your build. In the replay I noticed he rushed to mutas though, no useless zerglings, no defenses, nothing else.

That's why I believe this build is very dangerous: he sees you're only making zealots, so a natural reaction is to go fast mutas, because:

1. You'll be late on the stalkers count ( this is what happened to me when mutas arrived in my base, I warped stalkers but it was too late to prevent the harass, actually he snipped pylons and I couldn't keep my stalkers prod.. ).

2. If you're only making zealots, it implies you're teching to something else: either air ( which mutas counter ), or heavy robo ( which mutas counter ), so in both case mutas are a wise decision..

Noumena

United States85 Posts

August 27 2011 22:25 GMT

#18

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On August 28 2011 07:13 Nyast wrote:
Dunno, I just lost to it, my first try, and he didn't over-react to my attack ( I even surprised him, had 5 zealots when he scouted only 2 ). He got his 3 first mutas by 8'30, and had 12 around 9'. In that game I only opened with early pressure and transitionned something else entirely ( stargates ), but timing wise he would have had 12 mutas on the field by the time my prism would have arrived in his base if I had followed your build. In the replay I noticed he rushed to mutas though, no useless zerglings, no defenses, nothing else.

That's why I believe this build is very dangerous: he sees you're only making zealots, so a natural reaction is to go fast mutas, because:

1. You'll be late on the stalkers count ( this is what happened to me when mutas arrived in my base, I warped stalkers but it was too late to prevent the harass, actually he snipped pylons and I couldn't keep my stalkers prod.. ).

2. If you're only making zealots, it implies you're teching to something else: either air ( which mutas counter ), or heavy robo ( which mutas counter ), so in both case mutas are a wise decision..

I really wouldn't mind seeing a replay, and if you didn't follow my build order correctly, I don't see how you can discredit it. =/ If he is straight teching to Mutaslisks, then I don't understand how the opening , if executed correctly , didn't do severe damage to his economy. With the early pressure, you should be able to scout a Spire, and then can react correctly. Just like with any other build, scouting is key.

Nyast

Belgium554 Posts

August 27 2011 23:53 GMT

#19

I'm not discrediting the build, I haven't played it enough to claim that. I just noticed that in my latest game, which had the same beginning, the timings would have been bad even if I followed your build. Then yeah, I probably didn't execute it correctly ? When I sent my 5 zealots I met a lot of lings in the middle of the map. By the time I killed them all, all I had was 2 zealots in red. Should I have continued the pressure ? I don't think so, here I retreated and continued on stargates, that's where things diverged.

xomel

United States14 Posts

August 28 2011 00:07 GMT

#20

EDIT: crap triple post, my bad

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[G] PvZ -- Ultimate Solution: Warp Prisms

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