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On December 02 2011 08:15 Jackal888 wrote:
"Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive.
I'm not really sure why you're taking what I say out of context, and then saying it is "dumb" and "wrong." Nonetheless, I will gladly respond.
1) Builds on the ladder vary so much that it is hard to really gauge when a certain style/build is rare, or very popular. You may face 4gate every single game one day, and the next 3 Gate expand. When I say "Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base muta play," I am thinking in a broad sense. If you find a Zerg who does go that route, because it is so unsafe and susceptible to a 2 base timing by the Protoss, then you can assume that they had the idea of winning with this strategy out right. With that in mind, I like to think that 2 base Mutalisk is uncommon, just like any other strategy with the same intentions.
2) If you are going to quote me, at least quote me properly. I said "you should continue to get the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons." What I am implying here is that if you are facing Mutalisk play, then there will be a ball of Mutalisks. How can a Zerg have "muta map control," harass your mineral line/third, and be able to deal with Blink Stalkers/Archons? You simply can't with a "ball." This is also why I suggest multiple Warp Prisms to do multi-pronged attacks which again, the Zerg will not be able to hold with a ball of Mutas. If the harass is effective and well executed, then something important should and will die.
As far as your DT argument goes, I strongly disagree on the "viable answer to harass a zerg is DT." Gas is extremely valuable to the Protoss army. I would not want to "maybe" kill something for 125 gas, rather than "most likely" kill something for pure minerals. Also, I heard Phoenixes were pretty good at harassing as well.
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United States36 Posts
Hi sorry it may be just this time but none of the links are working for me. I think its on mediafire's end.
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Thank you for the guide. I have found it very informative and its helping me greatly in my worst match up.
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Great read and a great guide. Very well done! I love the versatility and aggression of this build. This allows me to react to anything the zerg can throw at me as well as stay ahead economically. I've been struggling a lot with PvZ lately, but haven't dropped a game to zerg in the past few days. This is my go-to build and I can vouch for its effectiveness.
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warp prisms are so annoying especially when you can warp in 20+ units late game DURING maxed food battles
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Updated the OP severely.
Sorry for my absence, other priorities have gotten in the way. I'll be adding more replays as they come and I will even throw in a couple of me losing with this build, as it does happen, rarely 
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On April 05 2012 10:16 Noumena wrote:Updated the OP severely. Sorry for my absence, other priorities have gotten in the way. I'll be adding more replays as they come and I will even throw in a couple of me losing with this build, as it does happen, rarely
Thanks! I've been doing variations on your build for months.
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Warp Prism PvZ is what allows me to win. Get a DT shrine and just got for hatches its amazing how many games you win without an Army vs Army fight. Seriously Warp Prism is so amazing
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@skatbone - That's awesome to hear man, hope it continues to work out.
@YourGoodFriend You can also do the same with Zealots + Sentires in a Zerg's main :D I believe in one of my replays I did just that, and then went and sniped his 3rd, then came back to snipe the Roach Warren lol. Flying Pylon carriers ftw.
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Hey noumena have you tried this opening before? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Gate_Nexus_YufFE
I've used a tweaked version of your build to great effect for a few months but then started doing the gate-nexus expand above. You can actually hit a much stronger zealot timing with that opening as you can move out with 4 Zealots (all made from your initial gate) from your base @ 6mins but you have the ability to reinforce with warp gate tech being done (lined up with your +1 weapons) ~7:20 or so, so you can essentially hit with 7 zealots at the same timing with this opening, compared to 4 or 5 with no ability to reinforce. It's also not such dead giveaway since you don't make 2 early gates (once my practice partners saw that opening once, they never fell for it again, though it worked on ladder). It's similar in concept staying on 1 gas for a while to afford zealots to pressure with. I highly recommend it as IMO it is the perfect fit for your style (though it can transition into anything really).
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I've heard of the YufFE, but I've never had the chance to try it.. It just seems very paper thin in the sense of if you don't scout X in his base then you lose. However I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. Perhaps his opening followed by the rest of my BO would be most optimal? I'll have to try that out sometime.
I'd definitely say YufFE and my opening has similar qualities but different advantages and disadvantages. Obviously, as you said, the 2 gates right off the bat is a dead giveaway for pressure which is both a pro and con since you're essentially forcing units out of the Zerg just by making a 2nd gateway faster than normal.
I'm interested in what the probe count is at 7 minutes for Build A and B for the YufFE, and when +1 finishes. Do you perhaps know a rough estimate on the top of your head?
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On April 05 2012 16:40 Noumena wrote:
I've heard of the YufFE, but I've never had the chance to try it.. It just seems very paper thin in the sense of if you don't scout X in his base then you lose. However I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. Perhaps his opening followed by the rest of my BO would be most optimal? I'll have to try that out sometime.
I'd definitely say YufFE and my opening has similar qualities but different advantages and disadvantages. Obviously, as you said, the 2 gates right off the bat is a dead giveaway for pressure which is both a pro and con since you're essentially forcing units out of the Zerg just by making a 2nd gateway faster than normal.
I'm interested in what the probe count is at 7 minutes for Build A and B for the YufFE, and when +1 finishes. Do you perhaps know a rough estimate on the top of your head?
Yes I had concerns about the safety of YufFE but so far it seems incredible solid as long as you scout correctly and adjust the build accordingly (along with proper sim city of course, which makes YufFE's opening not viable on certain maps where the ramp is far away from your natural nexus). Like I said I've played a slightly tweaked version of your build for months and now do the YufFE opening and although I don't follow it up with your build anymore I know from using the 2 builds that you can hit all the same timings from your build out of a FFE with the main difference being that your initial zealot push is a lot stronger.
In terms of worker count, YufFE's opening varies a lot based on what you scout, but if zerg opens 14 or later pool with hatch before gas then your worker count is identical to a forge first FFE since you don't cut probes except to get your nexus down at 17, which is exactly when a forge first nexus would go down. Currently I'm mixing it up between using this build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275) and faking the initial zealot pressure into a 6:45 3rd Nexus.
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This build is very out of date and very easy to destroy as a zerg player. Kinda of a necro post.
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@Skyro - Awesome, thanks. I'll have to try both of those out since it never hurts to have multiple openings/tricks. Especially since I've been playing more seriously.
On April 05 2012 17:16 silentdecay01 wrote:
This build is very out of date and very easy to destroy as a zerg player. Kinda of a necro post.
Great. Thank you for this riveting contribution to the discussion. Anyways, I don't necessarily see how this build is out-of-date when there are multiple similar builds springing up with a similar style, which is why I decided to update mine slightly to keep up with the current trends.. If any Z or P has really any decent argument on why this build is bad or is easy to destroy then please don't hide it..
I don't expect this to be the end all of PvZ strategy.. just to add some insight on the MU. Take what you want.
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You get only 1 prism? I went roboallin with prism first for sentry drop and my enemy had units EVRYwhere because he spotted prism with OL because I didn't open SG. Pretty much after that I've skipped prism drop on midgame totally unless im going heroic expansion dtzealot lair snipe style which is also relying on your opponent...
Yeah overall I do like prisms and very useful and awesome, but when your opening and starts relies on prism doing damage it's like going tvp 1base hellion drop? I guess..
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@Ryndika No. As I said in the OP
"Transition
This is the part of the build that I love the most. It is incredibly versatile, and whatever unit composition you want to get will most likely work, as long as it counters what the Zerg is doing (ex: can't go mass Zealots vs Mutas...) However, there is one unit you must get for this build to be optimal. The Warp Prism. You should make roughly 2-3 of these wonderful units, and have them spread out over the Zerg's base. (ex:One in the corner of his main, one at his natural, one infront of his natural etc.)"
You're mixing strats here.. The biggest problem people have in PvZ is the idea that you MUST do damage with the units you push out with.. Well you already have by threatening them. Zergs want to expand,macro, and tech. They don't want to have to deal with your Warp Prism or any type of aggression. If it get's denied, oh well. You have all of your basic tech structures and +1 Wep +1 Armor and have just feigned pressure. Your opponent now has to be defensive and is cautious that you are on the map. Sounds like it's done it's job to me. Also, in no way is it like a 1base.. because it's a FFE..?
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On April 05 2012 17:16 silentdecay01 wrote:
This build is very out of date and very easy to destroy as a zerg player. Kinda of a necro post.
I get that this is basically true - if you see the chronoed forge faster than you'd expect, and a second gateway instead of a cyber core, you as a zerg player should know this is coming. Then you plant down a roach warren a minute or so earlier than you normally would.
So my question to the OP is that:
How can you make this work to deal damage to the enemy player's 3rd if this happens? What's the followup plan if your pressure doesn't work, and how do you deal with Stephano style 60 drone 3 hatch roach/ling hammering away at your nat if you don't successfully kill off his third?
I -really- want to be able to go back to this style; it was my favorite for a long time. But now it's just too reliant upon the initial attack dealing damage, which, sadly, higher level players can't be relied on to fall for.
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United States36 Posts
So i have had some seriously insane success with this build on the mid master ladder. It's too solid and i love the style. However instead of going chargelot archon i warp in 4 sentries when i think the attack has done enough damage and 2 immortals while it is going on and expand. By the time the zerg attacks(counters) i have 2 immortals a bunch of sentries and 6 gates of blink stalker warp in ability with colo tech on the way with a third almost fully saturated.
Recent replays:
http://drop.sc/157358
http://drop.sc/157357
http://drop.sc/157356
http://drop.sc/154919
http://drop.sc/157355
Many thanks to Noumena for this style, i love you.
Add me for any questions, LGRazultull.885
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I love this build sheerly because it punishes the zerg the moment they become greedy. I played a game in particular where the zerg expands 3 times by the 8 minute mark and expects to be safe, especially after the first 5 zealots only got a few drones/queen. However, double warp prism harass is just delightfully good at ruining any plans the zerg have. Mid game harrassment resulted in denying about 6 expansions and reducing the zerg drone count to 3.
Would you reccomend using the Warp Prism against Terran? I'd love to begin to use the warp prism in my other match ups.
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@Zarent - I've been trying a lot of various things vs the Stephano style roach play, but I think my most successful was throwing down a second Robo once I realized what it was, and getting an absurd amount of Immortals. I pretty much blindly go +2 Immortals vs every Z now unless I know for sure that it's muta or infestor. To ensure more damage, I've also been adding a sentry into my drops, for obvious reasons and sniping the Roach Warren/drones.
@Razultull - Awesome man, thanks a bunch.
@KimJong1L - I do recommend Warp Prism vs Terran, I've been using it a lot of late. I favor the Parting style of PvT since it's really my style, although a bit hard. Since you get the Robo and observers early, you can always load up 1-2 HT with 2 Zealots and go into a mineral line. Terrans seem to be the worst at handeling drops just from lack of experience, so it's an amazing sight once a Prism with 7-8 gates is in their main, with an almost maxed attacking one of their expos.
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EPT
