EPT[G] PvZ -- Ultimate Solution: Warp Prisms - Page 10
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TylerThaCreator
United States906 Posts
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bankai
362 Posts
To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts. Advice??  | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
On October 24 2011 16:05 bankai wrote: I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game? To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts. Advice?? What kind of newb does that O_o If you scouted it, you can throw down a stargate. I actually don't see too many zergs doing this as stargate shuts down 2 base roach all-in. | ||
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Necrophantasia
Japan299 Posts
On October 24 2011 16:05 bankai wrote: I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game? To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts. Advice?? Get like 3 immortals and keep them behind your canons. Split up the incoming roaches with forcefield and watch them melt. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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Sweetness.751
United States225 Posts
On October 12 2011 23:48 TylerThaCreator wrote: Just posting to let you know that this build is effective at 1400 masters ROFL of course this build works at 1400 Masters. The guy that designed it is basically GM and he successfully dismantled ReignSlush on ladder with it And if you are not sure who that is, just check out the MLG Pro Circuit, his name is up there. Trust me, the build works. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
I myself just go quick warp prism and a few sentries while getting warpgates (4 or 5) and then send a warp prism with 1 zealot and 3 sentries. Sentries in the mineral line are really strong against lings and if they did go roach i haven't wasted too much on useless units, ie roaches. Not getting +1 so early makes it much easier to defend a unexpected roach push or transition to colo quickly if needed. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 24 2011 18:01 T.O.P. wrote: How is zerg supposed to kill a warp prism? You can't unless you go spire or hydras, and even then if they get speed the only thing that can follow are mutas. The most effective counter to warp prism is just not let them drop, like in ZvT. I play with baneling drops in ZvP and can't spread many overlords around my bases to spot them incoming so I have a lot of trouble vs this play. Lategame dts and zealots wreck a base so fast it's disgusting. | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On October 24 2011 20:56 NeonFox wrote: You can't unless you go spire or hydras, and even then if they get speed the only thing that can follow are mutas. The most effective counter to warp prism is just not let them drop, like in ZvT. I play with baneling drops in ZvP and can't spread many overlords around my bases to spot them incoming so I have a lot of trouble vs this play. Lategame dts and zealots wreck a base so fast it's disgusting. Warp Prism completely changes the metagame. It forces me to build some anti-air (muta, corrupter) where in the past I didn't need to. When I build air units, I can be so weak to timing attacks. There's also a issue of protoss spreading your army apart. There's nothing you can do to stop a 10 zealot warp in from killing your hatchery unless you have a part of your army nearby. 4 Spines won't do anything. It lets protoss maneuver in ways that could put you in a lose lose situation. Let's say he walks his main army out to your nat then flies a warp prism to your 3rd. Are you gonna put part of your army at the 3rd? If you are, then he'll just warp in next to his main army and crush you. If you don't, he'll warp in 10 zealots at your 3rd kill the hatch and just walk back home with the main army. | ||
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 24 2011 21:12 T.O.P. wrote: Warp Prism completely changes the metagame. It forces me to build some anti-air (muta, corrupter) where in the past I didn't need to. When I build air units, I can be so weak to timing attacks. There's also a issue of protoss spreading your army apart. There's nothing you can do to stop a 10 zealot warp in from killing your hatchery unless you have a part of your army nearby. 4 Spines won't do anything. It lets protoss maneuver in ways that could put you in a lose lose situation. Let's say he walks his main army out to your nat then flies a warp prism to your 3rd. Are you gonna put part of your army at the 3rd? If you are, then he'll just warp in next to his main army and crush you. If you don't, he'll warp in 10 zealots at your 3rd kill the hatch and just walk back home with the main army. As you said it has the potential to change the metagame, which is a good thing imo, maybe it will give protoss the small nudge in the right direction they need. It also gives some stupid strategies like the "warp 3 sentries in your main and you're going to loose everything in it and you can't do anything about it lololol", but maybe that will mean a zerg has to get some units earlier and thus the 3 hatch play vs FFE won't be as powerful as it is now. Wait & see, even if I hate playing against it I like that it's changing how the matchup can be played and opening more strategies. Where it's really scary as said before is the late game, where dts and zealots snipe your tech structures literally in seconds, could force zergs to get an extra roach warren or spire at other locations lategame. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On October 24 2011 16:05 bankai wrote: I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game? To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts. Advice?? Personally I'm not a fan of the zealot opening or FFE on XNC due to the open natural for this very reason. The usual means of defending out of a FFE is stalkers + sentries or void rays, neither of which is a viable option since you won't have enough gas (you're only going to have 1 geyser at this point). So your only option is just to make cannons, and due to the open natural it is hard to defend every point with adequately with cannons. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On October 24 2011 20:49 Markwerf wrote: I like the warp prism harass as followup to a FFE but I dislike getting the early +1 and poking with zealots like that. If they happen to go blind roaches then such a zealot opening is really bad, and i'd rather have spend the early minerals on something more useful. The additional problem with just sending out zealots is that they have so much time to react and they're so slow, with the right amount of lings and some queen usage they can counter it really easily while losing less then you. I myself just go quick warp prism and a few sentries while getting warpgates (4 or 5) and then send a warp prism with 1 zealot and 3 sentries. Sentries in the mineral line are really strong against lings and if they did go roach i haven't wasted too much on useless units, ie roaches. Not getting +1 so early makes it much easier to defend a unexpected roach push or transition to colo quickly if needed. The +1 Zealot push comes @ ~7mins, so as long as you scouted a FE from zerg he won't have roaches unless he is doing a roachling bust. So as long as you are active with your initial zealots and scout the roachling coming from across the map so you can get cannons up, you will actually be ahead due to all the drones he had to cut to get those early roaches. Ofc if you are going for a sentry drop you can get that going faster if you get earlier gasses and skip the initial zealot pressure, so it's a trade-off. The zealot pressure is meant to keep the zerg honest out of a FFE so they don't go drone-crazy off a fast 3rd. The opening your choose also effects your mid and end game composition. When I go zealot opening I end up with zealot + Immortal + HT whereas if skip the zealot pressure for early gasses I go the traditional stalker + sentry + colossus. | ||
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attwell
United States220 Posts
I did however take your general concept of utilizing warp prisms as an extension of my mid-game harassment, even against terran. It completely solves the problem of protoss mobility by forcing overreactions. I use zealot drops/warp in for different purposes too. Loading up 2-4 zealots and dropping them into a mineral line will do economy damage and cause your opponent to send a few units back. This is good for the first few drops because it can cause macro to slip. retreat with the warp prism full of any units you can grab and hide them in a corner. Later in the game, I use this same prism in particularly effective tactic to deny the third. Have an obs at the potential third base with your army nearby (I put zealots at other close bases to deny them outright, the obs lets him build a third where I want). As soon as his third completes, I drop 2 zealots and 2 sentries into the mineral line, and FF the escape routes. I immediately warp in more zealots and begin targeting workers/tech/supply. This second drop is different because it forces the opponent to send his entire army back usually and is guaranteed to do damage. If he only sends a few units u can warp in more to make the drop more threatening. As soon as he starts attacking your units in his base, retreat with the warp prism full of whatever u can save, and go kill his third with your army. Immediately retreat back to a favorable position and take a third. As of now I think this is the only viable strategy I know to deny a third without risking your army too much. | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On October 24 2011 17:12 Necrophantasia wrote: Get like 3 immortals and keep them behind your canons. Split up the incoming roaches with forcefield and watch them melt. Thanks but this sounds really hard to pump out 3 immortals by the 8-8:30min mark if you follow this build. Have you been able to do this before?? | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On October 25 2011 01:00 Skyro wrote: Personally I'm not a fan of the zealot opening or FFE on XNC due to the open natural for this very reason. The usual means of defending out of a FFE is stalkers + sentries or void rays, neither of which is a viable option since you won't have enough gas (you're only going to have 1 geyser at this point). So your only option is just to make cannons, and due to the open natural it is hard to defend every point with adequately with cannons. Yeah I totally understand what you mean. It sorta feels like im forcing a strategy onto a map that doesnt work with it. However, as a low plat player, i follow the advice of "master 1 build per match up until masters" and opted with Forge FE. Also, generally I feel Forge FE is safer to secure expansions cos whenever I try 1 gate FE or 2 gate FE, it relies on good FF skill which is something I lack  | ||
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bankai
362 Posts
On October 24 2011 20:49 Markwerf wrote: I like the warp prism harass as followup to a FFE but I dislike getting the early +1 and poking with zealots like that. If they happen to go blind roaches then such a zealot opening is really bad, and i'd rather have spend the early minerals on something more useful. The additional problem with just sending out zealots is that they have so much time to react and they're so slow, with the right amount of lings and some queen usage they can counter it really easily while losing less then you. I myself just go quick warp prism and a few sentries while getting warpgates (4 or 5) and then send a warp prism with 1 zealot and 3 sentries. Sentries in the mineral line are really strong against lings and if they did go roach i haven't wasted too much on useless units, ie roaches. Not getting +1 so early makes it much easier to defend a unexpected roach push or transition to colo quickly if needed. I was also thinking about this. Yes the zealots are important to scout, and they dont die as fast as probes, but then I maybe its better to go with a 1zealot/1probe scout (which is faster and should see the tech or early third if any), and then IF you scout the early third, go for more zealots to deny it, or if not, then just use those zealots with the warp prism for the mineral drop later. Hows that sound?? | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
Zealots take 35-50 seconds to walk from one natural to another and zerglings have 27s build time. 4 zealots should not be able to deny a third or do economic damage to a natural, specially when you notice 2 gateways instead of gateway+core. 2 gate should always make Zerg wary of the attack. The dual gate cronoboosted zealots delays the warp gate technology to about 9 minutes non-cronoboosted) so Zerg should be able to catch up in potential drones lost when making zerglings to defend the early attack. I think it's a good build for protoss though. It's non-standard and puts on pressure earlier than the zergs expects so it could throw of his sense of timings. Even if the attack is effected, the zealots will still be cost effective due to +1 zealots effectiveness vs lings. Plus it reveals Z infrastructure and tech when protoss usually plays blind. I also like the warp prism follow-up. | ||
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Zarent
109 Posts
Is there any case where doing a FFE with this build would be safe enough to NOT fully wall-in? I find that walling in completely actually slows down my 3rd timing quite a bit, even if thats just personal issues. What would I look for to show me when I can afford a small gap in my wall (since there's going to be few zealots and sentries)? Additionally, when should I be looking to take a third with this build? Assuming a relatively normal amount of damage that doesn't win the game outright, should my 3rd line up with something that I see out of MY tech (that leads to better aggression) or a response to something that I see out of him? Lastly, lets say I see a quick third go down for him. How / where should I send my zealots in the initial attack? To his natural, to take advantage of his low defense, or to his third to essentially force a cancel? I can see both sides of this argument, and although I've traditionally just been sending them to his third to take it out, I can also see how leaving it alive allows for your warp prism harass to work even better (since his forces are forced to be spread even further apart). Thanks in advance! | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On October 25 2011 08:53 bankai wrote: Yeah I totally understand what you mean. It sorta feels like im forcing a strategy onto a map that doesnt work with it. However, as a low plat player, i follow the advice of "master 1 build per match up until masters" and opted with Forge FE. Also, generally I feel Forge FE is safer to secure expansions cos whenever I try 1 gate FE or 2 gate FE, it relies on good FF skill which is something I lack FFE should be the 2nd opening you learn, the first should be 3-Gate Sentry expand. Also learning how to FF properly is essential and IMO would be #1 on my list of things to improve if I felt it was lacking. Try grabbing a practice partner and tell him to roachling all-in you every game and try to defend out of a 3-gate expand with 1 cannon. On October 25 2011 09:46 Zarent wrote: Apologies if these have been answered before, I've read through a few pages of the thread. I'm a high diamond rank for reference, and loving this build. Few pretty easy questions for the pros of this build: Is there any case where doing a FFE with this build would be safe enough to NOT fully wall-in? I find that walling in completely actually slows down my 3rd timing quite a bit, even if thats just personal issues. What would I look for to show me when I can afford a small gap in my wall (since there's going to be few zealots and sentries)? Additionally, when should I be looking to take a third with this build? Assuming a relatively normal amount of damage that doesn't win the game outright, should my 3rd line up with something that I see out of MY tech (that leads to better aggression) or a response to something that I see out of him? Lastly, lets say I see a quick third go down for him. How / where should I send my zealots in the initial attack? To his natural, to take advantage of his low defense, or to his third to essentially force a cancel? I can see both sides of this argument, and although I've traditionally just been sending them to his third to take it out, I can also see how leaving it alive allows for your warp prism harass to work even better (since his forces are forced to be spread even further apart). Thanks in advance! -I personally prefer to wall-in but of course you can leave a 1 zealot gap if you want. I don't know how it would delay your 3rd as you can just destroy part of your wall when you are ready to expand. -I personally time my 3rd based on the map, what I scout from the initial warp prism harass, and if zerg took a 3rd. Unfortunately there are just too many possibilities/variations at this point in the game so I don't know if I can give you a rule of thumb here, it's just experience/game sense. -I use my initial probe scout to scout for an early 3rd. If my probe scout dies I send my first 1-3 zealots to check for the third. If I scout the third I always send my first batch of +1 zealots to his 3rd because it is harder to reinforce units to his 3rd. There's also a far less likely chance they have any spinecrawlers there since the hatchery should be freshly spawned if you hit @ 7mins. | ||
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SethDrone
United States51 Posts
It's been steadily going downhill for me and zergs are defending it much better than before(both the intial zealot harass and the prism harass). I'm not sure if they're just used to dealing with it now or if I'm facing better players who can handle it without taking much damage. I usually run into two things, either mass roaches or fast mutas and either one is a pain to handle. The roaches are usually too many for me to handle back at home due to the smaller army from warping in zealots, I either lose my third or take big losses holding my natural wall. If they go fast mutas I can do some damage but they take out the prisms and then its hard to get a big enough army at home to hold the trend of mass mutas that has been bopping up. Most of the early gas is in robo, twilight, charge and upgrades so the stalker count is low and going for charge delays blink. | ||
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