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I've adapted to include a stargate with this build (Like what Hero did in MLG Providence)
If you can't do damage with your zealot attack, pull back and save them OR, if you feel you can sacrifice them and gain valuable info, run them into the main to scout tech. (This doesnt always work if the zerg is good and gets a surround on your zealots.)
If I can't get a decent scout, instead of rushing the robo, i'll get a stargate then chrono out a phoenix to scout/prep for mutas (because that's what owns me the most). If he's going muta, throw down a 2nd stargate and get more phoenix. If he's going roach/hydra, throw down the robo. Depending on how many roaches, get an immortal or 2. If not, get the warp prism and start your harass. It's good to 2 prong attack here. Then FF the ramp and take out either the main or the nat.
That's been working for me lately... Given, I'm low diamond right now so take this advice how you will
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On November 22 2011 00:08 SethDrone wrote:
Are people still using this build to much success, if so have you had to make any significant adaptations?
It's been steadily going downhill for me and zergs are defending it much better than before(both the intial zealot harass and the prism harass). I'm not sure if they're just used to dealing with it now or if I'm facing better players who can handle it without taking much damage. I usually run into two things, either mass roaches or fast mutas and either one is a pain to handle. The roaches are usually too many for me to handle back at home due to the smaller army from warping in zealots, I either lose my third or take big losses holding my natural wall. If they go fast mutas I can do some damage but they take out the prisms and then its hard to get a big enough army at home to hold the trend of mass mutas that has been bopping up. Most of the early gas is in robo, twilight, charge and upgrades so the stalker count is low and going for charge delays blink.
I still use a variation of this opening as my standard PvZ opening on maps I can wall-off and FFE (which is every current ladder map except XNC and metal IIRC). It still is very effective even vs my practice partners who know exactly what is coming, you just have to react properly yourself. The OP seems to tend to expand during the initial warp prism harass, however I prefer to throw down an additional 3 gates instead to have 7 gates backing my initial warp prism. The reason is simple, the surging popularity of mutas.
First off I think you should have a mental checklist in your head on what is possible during different periods of the game. If he they go for a fast 3rd hatch (e.g. ~5 mins), your initial zealot harass should hit them before roaches. If they had the balls to go fast 3rd into muta then you should basically have a BO win as they won't have enough defenses when your warp prisms hit.
Now if you're talking about 2-base muta, if your BO is tight (and it needs to be for this to work), you can hit them with your warp prism shortly after 9 mins depending on the map (your 7 gates should be transforming into warp-gate as your warp prism is trucking it over to their base) and you should be able to hit them before their first batch of mutas pop. Your zealots should be able to do significant amounts of damage as mutas take forever to kill +1 armor zealots. I like to focus down the hatch or spire in this scenario. This harass gives you time to cannon up your mineral lines and research blink once you confirm mutas (your twilight council should complete right around your first big warp-in at their base). At this point you're ahead so you can either expand or just 2-base push him if you think you can finish him off.
As for 2-base roaches, most zergs will get a later expand behind a strong roach army right around when your warp prism is hitting. In this case I like to go double warp prism and harass his main and 3rd at the same time. Do what harass you can, and when they wise-up and split their army to defend their bases, I then know it is safe to take my 3rd since they lose their ability to push me. In the case of roaches I get charge first instead of blink.
As for defending against roach pushes, you should be pumping non-stop immortals after your warp prisms once you scout roaches. Immortals + cannons + complete wall-off will stop any roach push dead in its tracks.
Also your initial zealot poke should give you a lot of insight on if they are going mutas. For example if you scout no 3rd base, only lings/crawlers as defense and/or both geyers are up at their natural you can pretty much assume mutas since infestorling has fallen out of popularity (and you pretty much have a build order win if they go infestorling anyway so you don't have to worry about it). Sometimes I even catch their spire building if I can sneak my initial zealots into their main.
Last point is that I get my twilight council + 2 gas right after my 7 gates because you're going to need the gas income for HT ASAP regardless if they go roach or muta.
edit: oh mid-masters player here btw
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On November 22 2011 03:43 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 00:08 SethDrone wrote:
Are people still using this build to much success, if so have you had to make any significant adaptations?
It's been steadily going downhill for me and zergs are defending it much better than before(both the intial zealot harass and the prism harass). I'm not sure if they're just used to dealing with it now or if I'm facing better players who can handle it without taking much damage. I usually run into two things, either mass roaches or fast mutas and either one is a pain to handle. The roaches are usually too many for me to handle back at home due to the smaller army from warping in zealots, I either lose my third or take big losses holding my natural wall. If they go fast mutas I can do some damage but they take out the prisms and then its hard to get a big enough army at home to hold the trend of mass mutas that has been bopping up. Most of the early gas is in robo, twilight, charge and upgrades so the stalker count is low and going for charge delays blink. I still use a variation of this opening as my standard PvZ opening on maps I can wall-off and FFE (which is every current ladder map except XNC and metal IIRC). It still is very effective even vs my practice partners who know exactly what is coming, you just have to react properly yourself. The OP seems to tend to expand during the initial warp prism harass, however I prefer to throw down an additional 3 gates instead to have 7 gates backing my initial warp prism. The reason is simple, the surging popularity of mutas. First off I think you should have a mental checklist in your head on what is possible during different periods of the game. If he they go for a fast 3rd hatch (e.g. ~5 mins), your initial zealot harass should hit them before roaches. If they had the balls to go fast 3rd into muta then you should basically have a BO win as they won't have enough defenses when your warp prisms hit. Now if you're talking about 2-base muta, if your BO is tight (and it needs to be for this to work), you can hit them with your warp prism shortly after 9 mins depending on the map (your 7 gates should be transforming into warp-gate as your warp prism is trucking it over to their base) and you should be able to hit them before their first batch of mutas pop. Your zealots should be able to do significant amounts of damage as mutas take forever to kill +1 armor zealots. I like to focus down the hatch or spire in this scenario. This harass gives you time to cannon up your mineral lines and research blink once you confirm mutas (your twilight council should complete right around your first big warp-in at their base). At this point you're ahead so you can either expand or just 2-base push him if you think you can finish him off. As for 2-base roaches, most zergs will get a later expand behind a strong roach army right around when your warp prism is hitting. In this case I like to go double warp prism and harass his main and 3rd at the same time. Do what harass you can, and when they wise-up and split their army to defend their bases, I then know it is safe to take my 3rd since they lose their ability to push me. In the case of roaches I get charge first instead of blink. As for defending against roach pushes, you should be pumping non-stop immortals after your warp prisms once you scout roaches. Immortals + cannons + complete wall-off will stop any roach push dead in its tracks. Also your initial zealot poke should give you a lot of insight on if they are going mutas. For example if you scout no 3rd base, only lings/crawlers as defense and/or both geyers are up at their natural you can pretty much assume mutas since infestorling has fallen out of popularity (and you pretty much have a build order win if they go infestorling anyway so you don't have to worry about it). Sometimes I even catch their spire building if I can sneak my initial zealots into their main. Last point is that I get my twilight council + 2 gas right after my 7 gates because you're going to need the gas income for HT ASAP regardless if they go roach or muta. edit: oh mid-masters player here btw
Could you post some recent replays of muta and 7gate? Having trouble securing a third and not sure when exactly to move out.
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So basically this is a fancy +1 delayed 2gate attack->4gate w/ warp prism->expand->deathball? A few complaints...first, if I poke up the ramp and see your second gateway, I'm going to go for a roach/ling attack because you won't have the sentry count to deny it. Assuming you fully wall-in and make enough cannons to defend it, I'm going to suspect *something* and sac an overlord. This seems very frail. I do like warp prism harass, because it can be very hard to deal with, but I don't think a delayed 2gate is the right way to buy time for this. Why not traditional FFE straight into 6gate +1 (or greater) warp prism harass->expand? If he takes a third, you'll be able to do still more damage with the harassment, and he'll be less likely to be able to deny your expansion.
EDIT: Just realized how old this is >.<
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On November 22 2011 04:00 bigbros2 wrote:
Could you post some recent replays of muta and 7gate? Having trouble securing a third and not sure when exactly to move out.
If you're talking about 2-base fast muta, I almost always 2-base push a fast muta player because I know I can usually win outright since most likely I did a lot of damage with my initial warp prism. I may have some replays of me getting a 3rd vs someone who went 2 or 3 base roach into muta though if that's what you're talking about (which is also becoming very popular in ladder lately).
On November 22 2011 04:19 CreativeAlias wrote:
So basically this is a fancy +1 delayed 2gate attack->4gate w/ warp prism->expand->deathball? A few complaints...first, if I poke up the ramp and see your second gateway, I'm going to go for a roach/ling attack because you won't have the sentry count to deny it. Assuming you fully wall-in and make enough cannons to defend it, I'm going to suspect *something* and sac an overlord. This seems very frail. I do like warp prism harass, because it can be very hard to deal with, but I don't think a delayed 2gate is the right way to buy time for this. Why not traditional FFE straight into 6gate +1 (or greater) warp prism harass->expand? If he takes a third, you'll be able to do still more damage with the harassment, and he'll be less likely to be able to deny your expansion.
EDIT: Just realized how old this is >.<
Any protoss player doing this opener is fully aware this is completely scoutable. The fact that it is still incredibly effective even though it is easily scoutable actually is a testament to its strength.
As for roachling push I am comfortable enough with the opening now that I want zerg to roachling all-in me. My initial zealots give me the map control I need to scout it and build cannons in time to fend it off. It doesn't matter if you scout what I'm doing at that point as you're already very far behind economically.
Also the 2-gate pressure doesn't necessarily delay anything. I've seen some variations who do delay their core to get more early zealots, but personally I still get core after my first gate is done and robo right after core. There is really no delay in my warp prism compared to any other FFE. What I don't get is early sentries, which allows me to tech with only 1 gas.
Also a "traditional" 6-gate has pretty much been figured out to a science. Trying to grab a warp prism with that would only delay it and make it worse. The "new" 6-gate (well it's 7-gate actually) is the +2 blink stalker push which hits a bit later but with a vastly stronger army.
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Skyro, do you have some replays of hitting them at 9 mins with your prism? I'd like to see how that plays out.
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On November 22 2011 04:41 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:19 CreativeAlias wrote:
So basically this is a fancy +1 delayed 2gate attack->4gate w/ warp prism->expand->deathball? A few complaints...first, if I poke up the ramp and see your second gateway, I'm going to go for a roach/ling attack because you won't have the sentry count to deny it. Assuming you fully wall-in and make enough cannons to defend it, I'm going to suspect *something* and sac an overlord. This seems very frail. I do like warp prism harass, because it can be very hard to deal with, but I don't think a delayed 2gate is the right way to buy time for this. Why not traditional FFE straight into 6gate +1 (or greater) warp prism harass->expand? If he takes a third, you'll be able to do still more damage with the harassment, and he'll be less likely to be able to deny your expansion.
EDIT: Just realized how old this is >.< Any protoss player doing this opener is fully aware this is completely scoutable. The fact that it is still incredibly effective even though it is easily scoutable actually is a testament to its strength. As for roachling push I am comfortable enough with the opening now that I want zerg to roachling all-in me. My initial zealots give me the map control I need to scout it and build cannons in time to fend it off. It doesn't matter if you scout what I'm doing at that point as you're already very far behind economically. Also the 2-gate pressure doesn't necessarily delay anything. I've seen some variations who do delay their core to get more early zealots, but personally I still get core after my first gate is done and robo right after core. There is really no delay in my warp prism compared to any other FFE. What I don't get is early sentries, which allows me to tech with only 1 gas. Also a "traditional" 6-gate has pretty much been figured out to a science. Trying to grab a warp prism with that would only delay it and make it worse. The "new" 6-gate (well it's 7-gate actually) is the +2 blink stalker push which hits a bit later but with a vastly stronger army.
This was directed towards the OP (hence the "oh...this is old" edit). See, you are doing a different opener than the OP lays out, so the roach/ling all-in won't be scary for you. Against a delayed 2gate attack, it's often a painful loss.
I wasn't clear enough there, sorry. Let me try "why not open traditional FFE, then get 6 gates (rather than 4) and use them (and warp prisms) to harass/buy time for your third (I'm assuming you won't do constant warp-ins since you will be moving the warp prism(s) around like nuts and you really just want to scare him, but you could need the extra production to defend against an all-in)?" What I'm trying to get at is, rather than 2base all-inning and expanding behind it, it might be good to go for more warpgates for more harassment to buy time for an expansion, because 3base Protoss is of course far stronger than 2base Protoss, and on maps where FFE is viable/common, it's pretty easy to take a 3rd/4th (to keep you on 3 mining bases). I'm not saying "do a 6gate all-in with a warp prism." I apologize for the vagueness.
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On November 22 2011 04:54 SethDrone wrote:
Skyro, do you have some replays of hitting them at 9 mins with your prism? I'd like to see how that plays out.
I don't save many replays but here's one:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=242579
My robo is slightly late but you get the idea. In this particular game I went in with a few zealots before +1 was done because I saw an opportunity, but usually I wait for 5 zealots and +1 before I engage. This game also doesn't really show the harass potential of prisms because the zerg grabbed his 3rd really late. You can at least see the relative worker counts, timings but the timings could definitely be tighter. When I practice on the comp I can get 5 zealots @ my enemy's base with +1 done @ 7 mins, and warp prism warping in 7 zealots in their base @ 9 mins but in a real game it'll probably be slightly later than those timings.
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I'm glad to see this thread is still kicking ass :D Awesome build. Mutas are terrible at the moment, and I hope they get a speed or damage nerf, or even a cost nerf, because they're way too cheap and way too powerful and way too easy to mass and way too hard to defend.
Anyway, I love this build <3
User was temp banned for this post.
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i've been using the sentry drop with warp prism warping in zealots at the main. usually wins me the game or at least gets me far away since they will have 1-2 bases with no lair which allows you to tech dt if you really want which is nice. Many transitional courses from there!
thanks for the read 
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When doing a FFE like this, do people generally favor a complete wall off on maps that it is possible on, or is a wall off covering the ramp sufficient? I've been doing similar builds to the one in the OP lately, but have been struggling against 8-9min roach/ling aggression, and I wonder if this is because I don't do a full wall off.
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On November 23 2011 20:22 ppterodactyl wrote:
When doing a FFE like this, do people generally favor a complete wall off on maps that it is possible on, or is a wall off covering the ramp sufficient? I've been doing similar builds to the one in the OP lately, but have been struggling against 8-9min roach/ling aggression, and I wonder if this is because I don't do a full wall off.
It is highly recommended you only do this particular opening on maps where you can wall-off. You're using all your gas for upgrades and tech early on so you won't have much to spare for stalkers or sentries, and it is simply too hard to defend roachling aggression with only zealots w/o spamming a crazy amount of cannons.
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On November 22 2011 23:59 CreativeAlias wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:41 Skyro wrote:On November 22 2011 04:19 CreativeAlias wrote:
So basically this is a fancy +1 delayed 2gate attack->4gate w/ warp prism->expand->deathball? A few complaints...first, if I poke up the ramp and see your second gateway, I'm going to go for a roach/ling attack because you won't have the sentry count to deny it. Assuming you fully wall-in and make enough cannons to defend it, I'm going to suspect *something* and sac an overlord. This seems very frail. I do like warp prism harass, because it can be very hard to deal with, but I don't think a delayed 2gate is the right way to buy time for this. Why not traditional FFE straight into 6gate +1 (or greater) warp prism harass->expand? If he takes a third, you'll be able to do still more damage with the harassment, and he'll be less likely to be able to deny your expansion.
EDIT: Just realized how old this is >.< Any protoss player doing this opener is fully aware this is completely scoutable. The fact that it is still incredibly effective even though it is easily scoutable actually is a testament to its strength. As for roachling push I am comfortable enough with the opening now that I want zerg to roachling all-in me. My initial zealots give me the map control I need to scout it and build cannons in time to fend it off. It doesn't matter if you scout what I'm doing at that point as you're already very far behind economically. Also the 2-gate pressure doesn't necessarily delay anything. I've seen some variations who do delay their core to get more early zealots, but personally I still get core after my first gate is done and robo right after core. There is really no delay in my warp prism compared to any other FFE. What I don't get is early sentries, which allows me to tech with only 1 gas. Also a "traditional" 6-gate has pretty much been figured out to a science. Trying to grab a warp prism with that would only delay it and make it worse. The "new" 6-gate (well it's 7-gate actually) is the +2 blink stalker push which hits a bit later but with a vastly stronger army. This was directed towards the OP (hence the "oh...this is old" edit). See, you are doing a different opener than the OP lays out, so the roach/ling all-in won't be scary for you. Against a delayed 2gate attack, it's often a painful loss. I wasn't clear enough there, sorry. Let me try "why not open traditional FFE, then get 6 gates (rather than 4) and use them (and warp prisms) to harass/buy time for your third (I'm assuming you won't do constant warp-ins since you will be moving the warp prism(s) around like nuts and you really just want to scare him, but you could need the extra production to defend against an all-in)?" What I'm trying to get at is, rather than 2base all-inning and expanding behind it, it might be good to go for more warpgates for more harassment to buy time for an expansion, because 3base Protoss is of course far stronger than 2base Protoss, and on maps where FFE is viable/common, it's pretty easy to take a 3rd/4th (to keep you on 3 mining bases). I'm not saying "do a 6gate all-in with a warp prism." I apologize for the vagueness.
The age of my post/build does not necessarily mean it is no longer effective. I have just been busy with real life hince the lack of replies from me and or even playtime in SC2.
Ironically, while trying to clear up your previous statement you have lost me even more. Yes, you can simplify my opening down to a "fancy 2gate attack," but I am curious to where the idea of a 2base all-in comes from. I am positive there is a replay somewhere that shows how I handle the opening, and as Skyro has stated, I like to take a 3rd while doing the Warp Prism harass. In those replays, you will also notice I don't just stay on 4 Warp Gates the entire game, or really even transition into a "death ball." Pretty sure I have expressed my dislike towards deathballs and the concept behind them.
However, for your argument that the "fancy 2gate attack" is countered by roach-ling all-ins, I disagree. I love it when I am roach/ling all-in'd, because it simply means an easy win. With my Zealots early on before the push happens, I am scouting with a probe and my initial Zealots, trying to take control of the Xel'Nagas and do any other scouting I can. The moment I see an early batch of Roaches, or an absurd amount of speedlings, I know to build more cannons. By the time their attack hits, my cybercore should be close to finishing meaning I can build a Stalker to fend off the push even harder. Honestly, the only roach/ling all-in that I felt I have lost decisively was vs. LiquidRet.
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I always have a problem getting out a warpprism and starting the harass without feeling very weak and spread out. Whether I use this build or a different one, if I want to use a prism on 2 bases I always feel vulnerable to a counter attack. Getting a 3rd up is very hard, you have to warp in at home ,which means your harass is a lot weaker, if you warp in for harassment, your third might die to a counter.
How do you deal with that? I'm not very experienced with warp prism play, but I want to improve my multitasking and start using it now that my other mechanics are decent enough =)
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On December 01 2011 19:00 Darkomicron wrote:
I always have a problem getting out a warpprism and starting the harass without feeling very weak and spread out. Whether I use this build or a different one, if I want to use a prism on 2 bases I always feel vulnerable to a counter attack. Getting a 3rd up is very hard, you have to warp in at home ,which means your harass is a lot weaker, if you warp in for harassment, your third might die to a counter.
How do you deal with that? I'm not very experienced with warp prism play, but I want to improve my multitasking and start using it now that my other mechanics are decent enough =)
I share your fear, except in PvT. I know this may sound lame, but it is especially true in this case, "a strong offense is the best defense." If you are able to effectively macro while you are harassing with your Warp Prism(s), then you should be in an amazing position. To specifically answer your question, I react to my opponent. With any type of harassment, you walk a fine line which decides whether you over commit and he just counters you, or you effectively deal damage and slowly pull ahead. I honestly can't think of such a thing as "safe harassment."
However, there are a few key things you will want to look for while you are harassing. Ask yourself these questions:
- Does he have Roaches? Yes. Build immortals. No? Suspect Mutas or Infestors
- Do I see a Spire? Yes. Cannon Up, research blink, warp in ONLY Stalkers at the main base.
- Is my harass being effectively "shut down?" If so, pause harassment briefly and start to macro in your main base/scout the map/prepare to take a 3rd.
For that last question, I want to emphasize on the idea of "prepare to take a 3rd." Scout out if he has any overlords spewing down creep, or lings blocking your pathway. Build a pylon with 1-2 Cannons, and when you feel completely safe, then take your third.
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Noumena I love this! Some advice for me please:
I took what you said and did some variation I think that sacrifices cb on probes (doesn't cut them though and it's still a normal FFE) to get +1 and 4 zeals pretty fast (I burn like 5 cbs on the attack upgrade) but only off of 1 gate (If I scout no third or roaches the rest doesn't apply).
I take the towers with initial zealots and push the third when I have 4, which the last one completes before the +1 is done. When I push with the zeals I have my warpgate working and I place a twilight council early, while probing. I add a 3rd gas and get a shrine as soon as TC is done and then a few sentries with the goal to have 2 DT when shrine is done. My thought process is to use mineral only units to harass third because the strength of +1 attack and just a few zealots is pretty underrated; it literally forces a ton of lings which is a huge depletion of larva (victory for Protoss since the fast third requires saturation to make it pay off in a decent amount of time), or it forces roaches which take a toll on the speed in which Zerg can get muta.
The DT then hit the third since the zealots typically don't kill it, and are able to either snipe about 8 drones and/or the hatch, but also to allow me to take my 3rd relatively quickly and without fear of reprisal in most cases. In the limited time they are there, the +1 works in my favor to allow me to use 1 less attack to kill roaches who are waiting on the overseer. After this it's pretty general, get robo, then blink, then storm, while getting more bases and upgrades.
I'm not a good player by any means, so can you comment on this thought process?
When constructing this plan, I was thinking on how to hit Zerg in different ways, and this does an upgrade advantage timing at the 6:30 mark, then a detection requirement at around 8:30, and then a tech advantage right after that (the archon plus sentry zeal), and then a macro advantage with the 3rd base and TC/Robotech. Would you be so kind as to comment on that? I need guidance :p
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"Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive.
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On December 02 2011 08:15 Jackal888 wrote:
"Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive.
1) You should realize that you get a pretty good indication if they are going 2-base muta with your early zealot pressure (e.g. you see no 3rd, both gasses taken at natural, only lings and/or spines as defense). I always throw down 5 more gates (for a total of 7) timed as my warpgate tech finishes instead of grabbing a 3rd like the OP, so you can easily adjust your build if you suspect mutas and be warping in mass zealots in his base before his mutas spawn and usually can cripple them enough to end the game shortly afterwards. It takes quite a while for mutas to kill a pack of +1 armor zealots and I can usually kill their spire and lair before he can clean my zealots up. 2-base muta is not what I would call a safe or standard build for zerg so I don't know why you are seeing it so much on ladder. Early 3-base play is a lot more common from my experiences (low to mid master).
2) You are somewhat correct here. Mutas definitely deter drops, but they don't completely shut it down. It's like saying mutas shut down drops in ZvT, which obviously they do not. DTs are awesome late-game PvT, though I'm not a fan of them as any sort of reliable counter of anything. They basically bank on you catching your opponent off-guard in some fashion. It's an "icing-on-the-cake" unit, not a core unit IMO.
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On December 02 2011 09:00 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 08:15 Jackal888 wrote:
"Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive. 1) You should realize that you get a pretty good indication if they are going 2-base muta with your early zealot pressure (e.g. you see no 3rd, both gasses taken at natural, only lings and/or spines as defense). I always throw down 5 more gates (for a total of 7) timed as my warpgate tech finishes instead of grabbing a 3rd like the OP, so you can easily adjust your build if you suspect mutas and be warping in mass zealots in his base before his mutas spawn and usually can cripple them enough to end the game shortly afterwards. It takes quite a while for mutas to kill a pack of +1 armor zealots and I can usually kill their spire and lair before he can clean my zealots up. 2-base muta is not what I would call a safe or standard build for zerg so I don't know why you are seeing it so much on ladder. Early 3-base play is a lot more common from my experiences (low to mid master). 2) You are somewhat correct here. Mutas definitely deter drops, but they don't completely shut it down. It's like saying mutas shut down drops in ZvT, which obviously they do not. DTs are awesome late-game PvT, though I'm not a fan of them as any sort of reliable counter of anything. They basically bank on you catching your opponent off-guard in some fashion. It's an "icing-on-the-cake" unit, not a core unit IMO.
Your responses are well thought out and thanks for the clarification. I am still seeing a lot of 2 base muta play form zergs on NA & SEA ladder (i'm mid Master on both) - The logic being.... sacrifice econ early to tech to mutas and one this is achieved safely... harass and take map control off the Protoss. They make up for the forgone econ during the mid / late game as they double and triple expand as part of the process.
The toss is often left with 2 options:
1) All in and kill the Zerg before his muta flock is big enough to cause excessive damage and before he has his spine crawler wall established.
2) Play a macro game against the Zerg and try and harass back and limit the Zerg's ability to get 100 drones and then tip half of them into spines during the late game.
Personally I have been trying to do the 2nd option against Zergs and find it increasingly difficult to pull it off with Warp prism use. Against almost all builds apart from Muta's... the warp prism is an awesome unit. Ones mutas are out... it becomes very ineffective and not cost efficient... especially if you are trapped on 2 base. For Terran's its different dropping stimmed marines as they are so cost effective against Mutas that loosing the investment of 8 marines and a medivac is worth killing 4, 5 or 6 mutas and keeping the flock to a reasonable number.
I have been doing big stargate plays and forcing the zerg away from mutas with superior pheonix play. The usual follow up to this is Roach Hydra and late game Infestor / Broodlord..... although I did meet one guy who raped me with Ultras late game as his transition.
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On December 02 2011 10:58 Jackal888 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 02 2011 09:00 Skyro wrote:On December 02 2011 08:15 Jackal888 wrote:
"Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive. 1) You should realize that you get a pretty good indication if they are going 2-base muta with your early zealot pressure (e.g. you see no 3rd, both gasses taken at natural, only lings and/or spines as defense). I always throw down 5 more gates (for a total of 7) timed as my warpgate tech finishes instead of grabbing a 3rd like the OP, so you can easily adjust your build if you suspect mutas and be warping in mass zealots in his base before his mutas spawn and usually can cripple them enough to end the game shortly afterwards. It takes quite a while for mutas to kill a pack of +1 armor zealots and I can usually kill their spire and lair before he can clean my zealots up. 2-base muta is not what I would call a safe or standard build for zerg so I don't know why you are seeing it so much on ladder. Early 3-base play is a lot more common from my experiences (low to mid master). 2) You are somewhat correct here. Mutas definitely deter drops, but they don't completely shut it down. It's like saying mutas shut down drops in ZvT, which obviously they do not. DTs are awesome late-game PvT, though I'm not a fan of them as any sort of reliable counter of anything. They basically bank on you catching your opponent off-guard in some fashion. It's an "icing-on-the-cake" unit, not a core unit IMO. Your responses are well thought out and thanks for the clarification. I am still seeing a lot of 2 base muta play form zergs on NA & SEA ladder (i'm mid Master on both) - The logic being.... sacrifice econ early to tech to mutas and one this is achieved safely... harass and take map control off the Protoss. They make up for the forgone econ during the mid / late game as they double and triple expand as part of the process. The toss is often left with 2 options: 1) All in and kill the Zerg before his muta flock is big enough to cause excessive damage and before he has his spine crawler wall established. 2) Play a macro game against the Zerg and try and harass back and limit the Zerg's ability to get 100 drones and then tip half of them into spines during the late game. Personally I have been trying to do the 2nd option against Zergs and find it increasingly difficult to pull it off with Warp prism use. Against almost all builds apart from Muta's... the warp prism is an awesome unit. Ones mutas are out... it becomes very ineffective and not cost efficient... especially if you are trapped on 2 base. For Terran's its different dropping stimmed marines as they are so cost effective against Mutas that loosing the investment of 8 marines and a medivac is worth killing 4, 5 or 6 mutas and keeping the flock to a reasonable number. I have been doing big stargate plays and forcing the zerg away from mutas with superior pheonix play. The usual follow up to this is Roach Hydra and late game Infestor / Broodlord..... although I did meet one guy who raped me with Ultras late game as his transition.
My point about 2-base muta play not being safe for zerg is you can do a 2-base timing and just outright win the game. The only scenarios a zerg can defend a 2-base push is either with roaches or mass spinecrawlers on maps where there is a choke at the natural. Roaches will delay mutas, and spinecrawlers can be circumvented with a single warp prism. If you let a zerg get away with 2-base muta just realize that you let them get away with what I like to call "greedy tech" build. In my experiences, going 2 or 3-base roach into mutas is a lot more common nowadays than a 2-base straight tech to mutas.
You make good points about the warp prism/medivac comparisons. The advantages of the warp prism though is that you don't have to load it with units and it is still a threat, as well as having access to a speed upgrade. Also even when the muta ball gets very large, you can load 1 or 2 HT in your prism and if they engage you you can storm his mutas which is not a good trade for zerg. I do agree with your point that if you did in fact let them get mutas off 2-base that warp prism harass is not worth it in that scenario (since you have neither prism speed nor HTs at that point) and should be either be trying to secure your 3rd or gearing up for an all-in, and IMO in neither case should your standard strat be DTs (trust me I've tried it and while I did get some wins I got some losses too where the zerg simply reacted properly). However I would just reiterate that you shouldn't be letting them get 2-base mutas up safely with this build if you react properly and your timings are tight.
I've also been revisiting the whole phoenix vs muta dynamic too, due to the recent popularity of roach -> muta. If the zerg went roaches to stop my warp prism harass I then grab my 3rd and the game settles into a macro game, and this is around the time when I get double stargates. This hedges your armies weakness against both mutas and broodlords. I it's popular opinion around these parts that phoenixes don't work vs mutas, but the delayed mutas due to going roaches first gives you enough time to get the infrastructure up for phoenixes (I always grab blink right after charge using this build so that also buys you time to get your phoenix army going).
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