Just to get this out of the way, this is my first guide and in no way will be perfect. So, with that said, I will get into the reasoning behind the build! As of late, I have noticed a giant swing in the PvZ match-up, in favor of the Zerg. Mostly I believe this is because of something I like to call, the "Deathball Syndrome," kind of like the 1 Control Group Syndrome. Hearing the cries of Protoss players whom I looked up to saying "Zerg is OP" etc, has saddened me. Thus, the result of my build!
The premise of this build
Concept
The idea of this build is very simple: FFE (Forge Fast Expand), have complete dominance of the game with lots of aggression and a quick 3rd/4th. Since the opening gives you adequate scouting knowledge, and possibly serious econ pressure, you are able to adapt perfectly to what your opponent is doing to achieve this. The versatility of this build is outstanding, and quench whatever flavor of unit composition you wish to do in the game. However, this build is for aggressive players with multi-tasking capabilities to some extent. Oh, and all of this (mostly) without Sentries, I don't like them
The Opening
First off, I don't like numbers when it comes to build orders. They are very restricting, so whatever I put down below will be a rough timing, but the order of which the buildings/units should be made is key.
9 Pylon ** AT YOUR NATURAL ** (SCOUT) 13 Forge (This is the safest timing) 15 Nexus **IF SAFE** 16 Forge **IF YOU DID NOT 13 FORGE** 16 Pylon 18 Gateway 18 Cannon 18 Assimilator ------------------------- This is where I don't have the exact numbers down, as the order is more important than the supply. ------------------------- First 100gas: +1 Weapons Upgrade (Chronoboost this 2-3 Times) 2nd Gate Zealot (Chronoboost when possible) Core Zealot x3 (ATTACK) -- Continue to make Zealots Warpgate Robotics Facility 2nd Gas +1 Armor 3rd/4th Gate ASAP Twilight Council
Scarier than a bunker rush
The Attack
Now, you should have attacked at roughly the 7 or 8 minute mark. This is generally when the Zerg has made obvious tech structures, or a fast third expansion. If he has not predicted your attack, then you will be able to do severe damage, scout, or deny his third. Also, +1 Weapons should finish before, right as you attack, or even during the attack. Zealots will be two shotting lings with this upgrade. If for some reason he has prepared for your attack, do not worry, you will still have scouted what he is doing !
What to look for and how to prepare -Roaches or Roach Warren + Show Spoiler +
The key is too look for how many roaches the Zerg is producing. Usually for proper defense, Zerg's will get a couple of roaches and then continue on macroing. However, they can always do a counter attack and this means you must throw down 2-3 more cannons immediately. If he counter attacks and you only have Zealots, you will outright lose. Since you already have a good econ, this will not affect you as much. Roaches are a good sign, considering you already have a Robotics Facility and can easily make Immortals.
An even better sign! If he is on two base and has a plethora of Zerglings waiting for your Zealots, this usually means he will be doing 2 base Infestor play OR 2 base Mutalisk OR a Baneling bust. Since you got that +1 Weapons Upgrade early on, your Zealots will be 2-shotting his lings. I will go into what to transition into in the next section. To handle a possible Baneling bust, you'll want proper scouting early on since it can come before your attack. Have a good sim city, as always, and produce sentries if possible.
You will pretty much deny his 3rd. Typically the Zerg won't have enough Lings to hold off the 3/4 Zealots AND take a fast 3rd. Stick close to the mineral line, and positioning is key.
Mutalisks have seen an uprising lately, and without a real clear solution on how to handle them, Zerg's have been destroying many Protoss bretheren as a result. Your best way to handle Mutalisks is Cannons/Blink Stalkers/Archons/HT w/ storm. The Zerg will do anything it can to prevent you from leaving your base by counter attacking the moment you do. Cover all over your fronts, throw down 2-3 cannons in each mineral line the moment you spawn a Spire/Muta, and start transitioning into Blink. Play defensive and cover your fronts, while scouting for hidden expands.
I'm sorry IdrA...
Transition
This is the part of the build that I love the most. It is incredibly versatile, and whatever unit composition you want to get will most likely work, as long as it counters what the Zerg is doing (ex: can't go mass Zealots vs Mutas...) However, there is one unit you must get for this build to be optimal. The Warp Prism. You should make roughly 2-3 of these wonderful units, and have them spread out over the Zerg's base. (ex:One in the corner of his main, one at his natural, one infront of his natural etc.)
Works best if paired with a frontal push, but not necessary! Zealots work best in tight corners when facing Lings, and there is no better place than a mineral line. Your 4gates should be in Warp Gate mode at this time as well. Load up 4 Zealots or 3 Zealots and a sentry before taking off into the Zerg base, drop them in the mineral line and immediately enter Warping Mode. Warp in nothing but zealots at this point. Micro. If you decide to add in a Sentry to your Warp Prism harass, then unload at the ramp of the main to FF. Also, if you want to get fancy and decide to transition into High Templars, throw in a couple of Archons or HT with storm. Don't stop harassing, unless you get completely shut out.
Depending on what you see from the Warp Prism harass, will help you decide what you want to transition into even more. Since you have all the ground Tier 2 paths covered at this point, it should be fairly easy. Make sure you are CONSTANTLY upgrading as well. I generally like to securd a third after the attack and once I feel safe enough to do so. Around the 11 minute mark is as good timing.
Colossus + Blink Stalker -Fairly cookie cutter, but works well. Personally I don't enjoy Colossus just like Sentries, but everyone has their own flavor of the day. Works best against Roach/Hydra compositions, and Colossi are great late game vs Brood Lords
Chargelot + Archon + Immortal -Now this transition is my absolute favorite. It works exceptionally well vs Roach/Infestor compositions. Feel free to add in High Templar to feedback any infestors. Archon Warp Prism drops also work wonders. If you just see Ling/Infestor, then add additional Gateways, remove the Immortal from the mix.
Blink Stalker + HTs + Archons -This is the unit composition that I suggested to obtain vs Mutalisks. It is very versatile, and the Stalkers are a little less desposable than the Zealots, but you can harass and be very mobile as well. Don't be afraid to use 4 stalkers in a Warp Prism either with this, since 4 Stalkers one shot a Drone.
And not one Stalker or Colossus was made that day..
Replays
These are a variety of replays, most of them being during practice sessions.
- Notes about this replay: I see the heavy ling count in the beginning with my initial probe, leading me to believe he is going to do a semi all-in attack. Once I realize this, I scout with my probe and notice the Roaches. I build extra cannons and try to deny any lings from getting into my mineral lines to the best of my ability. After the roach/ling push is cleaned up, I feel very comfortable at this time economically, but my army is weak. As a result, I decide to Observer first to scout his tech/unit structure, and then an Immortal since I know he has roaches. I do the Warp Prism harass to the best of my ability, and constantly am denying him thirds as a result of the harass.
Overall, notice the map control I have because of proxy pylons, observers, Warp Prisms, and simply taking control over the Xel'Naga. He is contained on two base the whole game and gets into very poor engagements as a result of the lack of vision/map control.
Hopefully this will help you Protoss players get an idea of my thoughts/decision making and better improve your games
This build is all about the Warp Prism harass and mobility of Protoss units. Although most are slow, the ability to warp anywhere on the map is amazing. Upgraded Protoss units are the bane of Zerg, period. Take your third when you feel most comfortable, and never give up your harassment until you know you have done enough damage. Even late game Warp Prism harass works wonders vs the immobile Infestor/Brood army. Just think of a Warp Prism as a flying Pylon. How could you go wrong?
Enjoy!
Edit: I forgot to add, I am High Masters/GM, so it works in high level play. Meaning I play people who are in GM and High Masters.
After losing to this opener multiple times I can vouch for it. From a Zerg point of view it takes a high level of control to be able to defend against this even if you're just on 2 base and you're completely blind the whole time with them controlling the pace of the game.
If the warp prism changes go through with the patch, this build will be insane as targeting down prisms with queens will be much harder.
Given that you don't like sentries and collosus, I'm wondering how you respond to a 2-base hydra attack on your wall, or a hydra-ling-nydus into your main.
I ask this not to discount your build, but out of genuine curiosity. I've encountered this a number of times at my lowly diamond level when I FFE.
Get one warp prism while building a robo bay?
And how about versus fast spire builds?
Again, I'm not discounting, just wondering how you handle the other options options (besides roach warren, lots of lings, and fast third) that a zerg has.
I have tried warp prism play before, but never with multiple prism. Great idea.
My apologies, I should have added those two in, considering one of my replay kind of shows the 2-base hydra push, although it has roaches. Generally I like to have Charge and Archons by the time the push comes, assuming I did an okay job during my harass / Warp Prism push , it will come at around the same time I get charge/archons.
Actually, I have never experienced a Hydra/Nydus strategy. Spread your Pylons all around your base for vision, and 5 probes will be able to kill the Nydus before any units spawn. Again, the initial harass/damage should delay this quite a bit.
For Mutas, you already have the forge, so a single Cannon at each mineral line will hold off any heavy harassment, and Blink Stalkers with a sentry for Guardian Shield works wonders, especially since you should have +1 Armor by then.
Archons also do well vs Mutas, basically a Thor with bigger? splash and a faster attack speed.
Looking at the PTR changes this looks very promising. Could you explain please what your thought process behind getting +1 armor over +2 weapons is? Usually Zealot / Archon / Immortal centric builds favor getting 2/0 really quick.
I have rambled on this forum on protoss to use the damn warpprism Hopefully protoss idiocy will end when people from your own group propagates for it >.<
Wait you are High Masters or GM?I hate when people do that "I am High lower league/higher league".Not like it matters really.Very nice and well thought out style I am going to be trying this one out later.
9 Pylon ** AT YOUR NATURAL ** 13 Forge **IF CLOSE SPAWN/EARLY POOL** 15 Nexus **IF SAFE** 16 Forge **IF YOU DID NOT 13 FORGE** (Scout at this time) 16 Pylon 18 Assimilator
Lolwut, how do you decide whether to Forge first or nexus first if you don't scout till 16? oO
Do'nt you have to pylon scout if you intend to forge FE or nex first of some kind?
You don't necessarily have to scout at 9 after your Pylon to see if you should Forge or Nexus first. Although, you don't have to follow the opening exactly and can scout at 9 or 16, your choice
If you see a very early Drone on a 4 player map, then you can assume he is doing something that requires he see exactly what you're doing, and is close spawn. Same thing goes with seeing an Overlord already in your base before you even have a chance to make a forge, generally means he is close spawn.
On the flip side, if you don't see anything or a drone scout until 16 supply, you can safely assume he is not going to be early pooling you.
As for the +1 Armor, you won't have your Twilight Council done before +1 finishes, and might as well just get it while your Forge is idle. I guess the timing of when I said to get +1 Armor is a bit misleading, i'll fix that
First off I'd like to say that I've had a great deal of success with this build when I tried it out today. It really gives you the ability to start off with strong macro AND pressure the zerg player, which most ffe builds wont allow you to do.
The one thing I'm wondering though is how would you go about holding off 1-2 base allins from the zerg? (7 roach rush, roach speedling). It seems like with the limited amount of gas you can only make cannons/zealots to defend. Are you able to hold roach rushes with this build or will it die due to lack of stalker/sentry?
Usually you won't find a Zerg doing a 7 RR vs a FFE, but if they do however, the best way is to make 3 Cannons just to be on the safe side, you'll pretty much win from there. Same idea goes for a Roach/Ling all-in where typically a push of roaches with very few lings comes, which you let you cannons take care of, and with your wall off the reinforcing lings will be cleaned up by Zealots.
You can delay your Robotics Facility for a sentry if necessary, but I suggest just getting a few extra cannons as they are always useful.
On August 28 2011 00:23 Noumena wrote:On the flip side, if you don't see anything or a drone scout until 16 supply, you can safely assume he is not going to be early pooling you.
Careful. An 11 overpool can delay the 14th and 15th drone to have the option to punish a nexus first. I believe you risk a BO loss with this.
On August 27 2011 18:04 fenner wrote: After losing to this opener multiple times I can vouch for it. From a Zerg point of view it takes a high level of control to be able to defend against this even if you're just on 2 base and you're completely blind the whole time with them controlling the pace of the game.
Actually, zerg should have almost perfect scouting of this for a long while. No ranged units get made for a long while, so your drone stays alive to see the timing of the second gas in the main. A ling scout at the front tells you that there's a forge upgrading something, with chrono used on it. You should also be able to see two gateways before the core, which means that P wants a non-negligible amount of zealots. This points to a +1 timing push, presumably zealot-heavy. With this information, deflecting it shouldn't be a big problem. The rest is where deviations come into play, but that partially depends on *how* you defend the initial push (mostly... roaches or queen/crawler?)
Cool, I particularly like the 2-gate zealots pressure, that's forcing a lot of lings from the Zerg and if you can surprise him, you can do tremendous damage with them.
As ffor the prisms, the idea is cool and it seems to work well but wouldn't it be an auto loss versus a Zerg that goes mutas ? Do you have any replay with mutas on 2 bases ? It sounds like they'd arrive at the same timing your harass starts.
On August 28 2011 05:50 Nyast wrote: Cool, I particularly like the 2-gate zealots pressure, that's forcing a lot of lings from the Zerg and if you can surprise him, you can do tremendous damage with them.
As ffor the prisms, the idea is cool and it seems to work well but wouldn't it be an auto loss versus a Zerg that goes mutas ? Do you have any replay with mutas on 2 bases ? It sounds like they'd arrive at the same timing your harass starts.
From my understanding, most 2 base muta play involves stockpiling 1000 mins and gas and then popping 10 mutas all at once. I'm not sure but I think the mutas end up poping out at 10 minutes and the first warp prism arrives at 9 minutes. And I'm sure it will be delayed even more with the amount of resources and larva spent on making lings to defend against +1 zealots. Once the mutas do come out your harass will most likely be shut down but you already have the TC ready to work on blink. The build might be less effective against a muta opening but I woulden't say its an auto loss.
Dunno, I just lost to it, my first try, and he didn't over-react to my attack ( I even surprised him, had 5 zealots when he scouted only 2 ). He got his 3 first mutas by 8'30, and had 12 around 9'. In that game I only opened with early pressure and transitionned something else entirely ( stargates ), but timing wise he would have had 12 mutas on the field by the time my prism would have arrived in his base if I had followed your build. In the replay I noticed he rushed to mutas though, no useless zerglings, no defenses, nothing else.
That's why I believe this build is very dangerous: he sees you're only making zealots, so a natural reaction is to go fast mutas, because:
1. You'll be late on the stalkers count ( this is what happened to me when mutas arrived in my base, I warped stalkers but it was too late to prevent the harass, actually he snipped pylons and I couldn't keep my stalkers prod.. ).
2. If you're only making zealots, it implies you're teching to something else: either air ( which mutas counter ), or heavy robo ( which mutas counter ), so in both case mutas are a wise decision..
On August 28 2011 07:13 Nyast wrote: Dunno, I just lost to it, my first try, and he didn't over-react to my attack ( I even surprised him, had 5 zealots when he scouted only 2 ). He got his 3 first mutas by 8'30, and had 12 around 9'. In that game I only opened with early pressure and transitionned something else entirely ( stargates ), but timing wise he would have had 12 mutas on the field by the time my prism would have arrived in his base if I had followed your build. In the replay I noticed he rushed to mutas though, no useless zerglings, no defenses, nothing else.
That's why I believe this build is very dangerous: he sees you're only making zealots, so a natural reaction is to go fast mutas, because:
1. You'll be late on the stalkers count ( this is what happened to me when mutas arrived in my base, I warped stalkers but it was too late to prevent the harass, actually he snipped pylons and I couldn't keep my stalkers prod.. ).
2. If you're only making zealots, it implies you're teching to something else: either air ( which mutas counter ), or heavy robo ( which mutas counter ), so in both case mutas are a wise decision..
I really wouldn't mind seeing a replay, and if you didn't follow my build order correctly, I don't see how you can discredit it. =/ If he is straight teching to Mutaslisks, then I don't understand how the opening , if executed correctly , didn't do severe damage to his economy. With the early pressure, you should be able to scout a Spire, and then can react correctly. Just like with any other build, scouting is key.
I'm not discrediting the build, I haven't played it enough to claim that. I just noticed that in my latest game, which had the same beginning, the timings would have been bad even if I followed your build. Then yeah, I probably didn't execute it correctly ? When I sent my 5 zealots I met a lot of lings in the middle of the map. By the time I killed them all, all I had was 2 zealots in red. Should I have continued the pressure ? I don't think so, here I retreated and continued on stargates, that's where things diverged.
On August 28 2011 07:25 Noumena wrote:With the early pressure, you should be able to scout a Spire, and then can react correctly. Just like with any other build, scouting is key.
How do you scout a spire with a 7 minute zealot poke? In particular, how do you tell apart a spire and an infestation pit? To me, it looks like the first reliable opportunity that you have to scout said spire is with the prism push - which seems quite late.
On August 28 2011 07:25 Noumena wrote:With the early pressure, you should be able to scout a Spire, and then can react correctly. Just like with any other build, scouting is key.
How do you scout a spire with a 7 minute zealot poke? In particular, how do you tell apart a spire and an infestation pit? To me, it looks like the first reliable opportunity that you have to scout said spire is with the prism push - which seems quite late.
Generally the Zealots won't die right off, meaning somewhere during the attack the Zerg will create the Spire, or already have it being made assuming he is rushing Mutalisks. If the Spire is made at the 7:00 mark, it takes ~100 seconds to build. 8:20 is the soonest you will be able to PRODUCE Mutalisks, meaning they will not get out until 8:53 (33 second production time). This is considering he has pooled a great deal of resources to make enough Mutalisks to completely shut down the Warp Prism, and do sufficient damage before you can react.
If the timings are hit correctly, the Warp Prism should arrive at about ~8:30 with your Twilight Council finishing shortly after. Warp Gate research also finishes roughly at this time. You drop Zealots, do as much damage as possible, and if you do see a Spire, you are able to snipe it assuming he is unprepared.
At this time, you begin to research Blink, warp in Cannons at your mineral lines (1 at each), and mass produce Stalkers. Blink Stalkers DESTROY Mutalisks, especially with the +1 Armor upgrade you will/should have gotten. Continue to get a third, and tech into Templar. Continue Warp Prism harass to keep the Mutalisks at the Zerg base.
also, what most people dont realize is that with spending all these minerals youre going to pool a bunch of gas and be able to easily throw up that templar archives and with a couple archons in your base you can almost completely shut down muta harassment while warping in chargelots to harass
On August 28 2011 08:53 Nyast wrote: I'm not discrediting the build, I haven't played it enough to claim that. I just noticed that in my latest game, which had the same beginning, the timings would have been bad even if I followed your build. Then yeah, I probably didn't execute it correctly ? When I sent my 5 zealots I met a lot of lings in the middle of the map. By the time I killed them all, all I had was 2 zealots in red. Should I have continued the pressure ? I don't think so, here I retreated and continued on stargates, that's where things diverged.
If you've killed a crap load of lings then you've done a GREAT job. Just because you werent able to kill drones, you were ABLE to force large numbers of lings. Not to mention that this is pressure of a FE build. It should put you ahead in macro, drone kills or not.
This looks great, and I've been looking for a way to put warp prisms in my play recently, my only question is what happens if for whatever reason (extra queens, spore crawlers, mutes, etc.) Your warp prisms flat out die without accomplishing anything? You seem to have put a lot of minerals and time into getting the prisms, and as a result don't have much tech/base defense (lots of cannons but fewer units) behind it, what if he just hydra/roach all-ins you? Or finds away around your cannons/wall? (Nydus, drop, etc.)
I am not exactly sure what you mean by "don't have much tech/base defense." You should have a Twilight Council and a Robotics Facility, this allows you to transition into Blink Stalkers, Charge Zealots, Immortals, Templar, DTs, and Colossus. Pretty much you already have the Tier 2 to cover any tech into Tier 3. As far as losing your Warp Prism to queens or spores, then that is simply a fault in your micro, and really that's more of a mechanics issue than a build issue.
On August 28 2011 10:13 xomel wrote: also, what most people dont realize is that with spending all these minerals youre going to pool a bunch of gas and be able to easily throw up that templar archives and with a couple archons in your base you can almost completely shut down muta harassment while warping in chargelots to harass
This pretty much says it all. You are spending minerals on Warp Prisms/Zealots, but not gas. Archons with +2 Weapons and +1 Armor will absolutely rip apart Hydras/Roaches. If you see he has a couple Roaches to clean up your Zealots, start making Immortals while you continue to harass. I'll upload a couple of replays and edit this post once I have them.
Sorry, I mean you don't really have an high tech units, you do have a lot of options, but if he deals with the drops (im willing to admit it is my micros fault that's losing the prisms) and then turns around and hits your front asap it seems like you wont have much to defend against it having used a lot of warp-ins on the harass as well as robo time making the prisms. That being said I intend to try this out ASAP.
On August 28 2011 21:32 Keilah wrote: My sc2 knowledge has gaps but shouldn't z be able to deflect your 4 zlots with queen(s) spine(s) and very few lings?
He wont die to first 4, the reason to do the push is to prevent him from taking fast third and droning up fast.
On August 28 2011 21:32 Keilah wrote: My sc2 knowledge has gaps but shouldn't z be able to deflect your 4 zlots with queen(s) spine(s) and very few lings?
He wont die to first 4, the reason to do the push is to prevent him from taking fast third and droning up fast.
Pretty much. This push isn't meant to straight kill the Zerg, but instead its purpose is to deny a third, make him produce lings early on, and possibly make spine crawlers. If he has "very few lings," then you should just be able to walk up his ramp and bypass the spine(s).
Saw Destiny do a lot of cool things with Warp Prism last night on his stream. I would love to see Protoss players make better use of them than now. (Yes, Destiny. He was off-racing.)
So far using this with great success thanks a lot for that PvZ style/build. Only thing that is causing me to lose is rush to mass muta.
What about incorporating some low gas 5-6 gate into this? Yeh it will delay my tech but when zerg rushes to mutas prism becomes useless, also spines in front shut down any direct harass(by walking). On maps like taldarim if zerg defends well game will last past 3 base econ and I really can't take 4th cause he'll base race me ;\ Can't see solution to this, any hints masta? :D
Nice post and nice strat. Also this will be much, much more powerful when new patch comes out. I've been doing something similar on ladder (EU mid master), but always felt that something was lacking. Warp prisms and second gate before cyber for earlier zealot pressure. It's mind blowing how much this little rearrangement can do this much for effectiveness of a build. Thanks Noumena!
The beauty of this build is, with the FFE and Zealot Pressure with +1 early on, it gives you a lot of versatility along with early pressure. The timings of everything also lines up very nicely imho, where as your Warp Prism should be popping out the time Warp Gates finish, or around that time.
This means that if your Warp Prism is denied by Mutas, you already have your Twilight Council, and 4 Warp Gates on a clean cycle ready to make 4 Stalkers. You pretty much win from here because Mutas can't do much vs Blink Stalkers.
On maps like Taldarim , you should be able to hit multi pronged attacks (hint: Multiple Warp Prisms) and do great damage to the Zerg. Warp in 4 Zealots for each Prism, send them in, unload, and mix up the Warp cycles. If you don't have to worry about Mutas, you should be getting Charge and will be able to pretty much destroy any small force he has defending. If he does have Mutas, then just ball up a huge group of Stalkers , and +1 Armor blink stalkers will destroy any Mutalisk force.
Hopefully Blizzard continues with the 1.4 Warp Prism buff
This is very very cool, you've saved my PvZ! I've been doing this at the high diamond level and havent really fleshed it out yet (my third is always late), but instead of your HT follow up I've been going DT around that time instead. DT's + warp prisms = brutal combination, it takes a bit longer to get the tech up, but remember that can give you archons as well. Also if I scout mutas I havent been going blink stalker, I've been sticking to the DT tech and getting out archons, over cannoning my mineral lines (3-4 cannons each) and getting another forge, and +1 shields, doing a huge push when he either tries to expo or when I want to take my 3rd myself. chargelot archon vs muta ling is hilarious, but the +1 shield to deal with the muta splash really helps, as well as your zealots having 1 more attack upgrade then the ling armour obviously, your army is just so cost effective vs his I dont know what he can do, and you have money to spare to build cannons in your base.
Anyway, thanks a lot, I have some replays I can upload of this working at a lower level with 80 apm if anyone is interested?
edit: noumena is an amazing band too, I hope thats what your name is in reference to.
also a brutal late game maneuver you can throw into this is warp in 4 templar outside a drop area, make them into archons, then drop them behind their mineral line as you warp in units.
Before you read any further, id like you to know Im in silver league, so feel free to disregard everything i say.
To be honest, depending on the map i could see this strategy being fairly useful against zerg if its the first couple times they face it. i would recommend throwing a stalker in early to hunt down the scouting overlord/drone that would be allowed to see everything thats going on. i suggest stalker because they have a high DPS then sentry, more mobile and cheaper then cannons around your bases, and they are relatively low on gas. if you dont then the zerg player could pretty much see everything that is going on in your base. personally, if i see a FFE i throw down several spine crawlers in my base (I am terrified of cannon rushes). if i didnt scout any probe or pylon in my main or my natural and i saw a second gateway go down instead of a core, the natural response i guess would be to move the spines to the front of my base, throw down a baneling nest, and other then a few lings pump drones hard because in my experience the reason most protoss FFE is to get the extra gas, not the minerals, and if a second gateway goes down before the core then something seems really off (which considering im in silver league wouldnt be a big surprise)
of course, this is my strategy after reading this thread and having a few minutes in real life to mull it over. in game, I would probably die.
On August 29 2011 16:57 Yakob wrote: Before you read any further, id like you to know Im in silver league, so feel free to disregard everything i say.
To be honest, depending on the map i could see this strategy being fairly useful against zerg if its the first couple times they face it. i would recommend throwing a stalker in early to hunt down the scouting overlord/drone that would be allowed to see everything thats going on. i suggest stalker because they have a high DPS then sentry, more mobile and cheaper then cannons around your bases, and they are relatively low on gas. if you dont then the zerg player could pretty much see everything that is going on in your base. personally, if i see a FFE i throw down several spine crawlers in my base (I am terrified of cannon rushes). if i didnt scout any probe or pylon in my main or my natural and i saw a second gateway go down instead of a core, the natural response i guess would be to move the spines to the front of my base, throw down a baneling nest, and other then a few lings pump drones hard because in my experience the reason most protoss FFE is to get the extra gas, not the minerals, and if a second gateway goes down before the core then something seems really off (which considering im in silver league wouldnt be a big surprise)
of course, this is my strategy after reading this thread and having a few minutes in real life to mull it over. in game, I would probably die.
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well the idea is you delay your cyber core to get out a second gate and a zealot, so a fast stalker isnt really a possibility. It is true he could scout you going the zealot build, and prepare for it with spines/lings/even fast teching to roaches but the point is, he still has to stop making drones and spend larvae and minerals to prepare for the attack much sooner then he would vs another build aka 6 gate blink. So if you run into mass spines you retreat your zealots, and know he cant take a 3rd. If you run into mass ling you know his drone count is lower then it otherwise would have been- if you run into roaches you know he used 150 and a drone on a roach warren, spent time mining gas with drones as opposed to minerals, then spent larvae and minerals and gas on roaches, not drones, all the while you're building probes off 2 bases. so even if he scouts it, and you kill nothing with your push, its GUARANTEED DAMAGE and i like it because its pretty much the earliest pressure you can put on (I think early pressure is nessecary in pvz and the standard 6 gate 2 base timings are too slow because z already has a significant lead by then). Also it gives the toss scouting information seeing what units kill him off.
From a Z point of view I think the best thing to do is to make a minimal number of roaches to hold it off and leave some lings at his potential 3rds to make sure he doesnt expo, while taking your own third. however I dont think this puts the toss behind by any means.
I found this thread amazing, thank you VEEEEEEEEERY VERY VERY MUCH!
My PvZ is a mess right now. Actually, I am terrified of PvZ right now. I've been trying some 1-Gate-Stargate builds, but although they've worked quite well at first, they're dying way too fast to 4-5 Queens at the moment. That number of Queens really messes up any harassment my Void Rays should be able to do (although my control is pretty terrible at times).
So, I've not yet tried your build (gonna try it as soon as I finish writing this). However, as others have already pointed out, I believe it leaves you a little bit vulnerable to roaches, does it not? By watching one of your replays, I've noticed a window when your opponent could have done a lot of damage to you with his roaches, just before your first Warp Prism popped out.
By the way, since I'm a newbie, I have to ask: how does this build fares against a lot of early speedlings? Say they try and run by your wall, then they get reinforced by more speedlings. What should you do? And one last question: how do you stop a baneling bust with this?
I'm asking that because every time a Zerg sees me Fast Expoing, he either roach-all-ins me or baneling busts me. I'm kinda tired of losing to Zergs >.>
On August 29 2011 21:20 Avan wrote: Hello there :D
I found this thread amazing, thank you VEEEEEEEEERY VERY VERY MUCH!
My PvZ is a mess right now. Actually, I am terrified of PvZ right now. I've been trying some 1-Gate-Stargate builds, but although they've worked quite well at first, they're dying way too fast to 4-5 Queens at the moment. That number of Queens really messes up any harassment my Void Rays should be able to do (although my control is pretty terrible at times).
So, I've not yet tried your build (gonna try it as soon as I finish writing this). However, as others have already pointed out, I believe it leaves you a little bit vulnerable to roaches, does it not? By watching one of your replays, I've noticed a window when your opponent could have done a lot of damage to you with his roaches, just before your first Warp Prism popped out.
By the way, since I'm a newbie, I have to ask: how does this build fares against a lot of early speedlings? Say they try and run by your wall, then they get reinforced by more speedlings. What should you do? And one last question: how do you stop a baneling bust with this?
I'm asking that because every time a Zerg sees me Fast Expoing, he either roach-all-ins me or baneling busts me. I'm kinda tired of losing to Zergs >.>
Either of those 2 things can be countered by MOAR CANNONS, its expensive, sure, but if he's roach all inning you or baneling all inning you then if you make just enough cannons to hold it off you'll be in good shape-zealot/cannon is pretty cost effective against both of those xD
The question I would have is, how do you Forge FE on typhon peaks? It doesnt seem reasonable, or how do you transition into this from a 1 base build? at the moment I'm doing a 4 zealot pressure (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=254510 ish) off 3 gate into expo but the upgrades being later is killer.
edit: on non forge FE maps, shattered temple etc, if he 6 pools you, you lose? or?
Did this build in concept today while laddering (i.e. didnt strictly adhere to the build order but rather adhered to the principle) and had the most fucking epic win. Chrono'd 3 zeals for some initial harass and unit forcing and then proceeded to drop/warp zeals into the main mineral line. The drone deaths were glorious to behold. The harass also revealed the zerg to be going for a 2 base roach/ling all in which I proceed to hold in spite of losing my natural. I counter and several battles later emerge victorious. When I watched the replay, it turns out the initial drop caught him with his entire army in front of my base which he then proceeded to move back to his main to deal with the zeals choppin drone heads off like fucking butchers. Finally some cost efficient Protoss harassment. Who knew it was so simple?
On August 28 2011 07:13 Nyast wrote: Dunno, I just lost to it, my first try, and he didn't over-react to my attack ( I even surprised him, had 5 zealots when he scouted only 2 ). He got his 3 first mutas by 8'30, and had 12 around 9'. In that game I only opened with early pressure and transitionned something else entirely ( stargates ), but timing wise he would have had 12 mutas on the field by the time my prism would have arrived in his base if I had followed your build. In the replay I noticed he rushed to mutas though, no useless zerglings, no defenses, nothing else.
That's why I believe this build is very dangerous: he sees you're only making zealots, so a natural reaction is to go fast mutas, because:
1. You'll be late on the stalkers count ( this is what happened to me when mutas arrived in my base, I warped stalkers but it was too late to prevent the harass, actually he snipped pylons and I couldn't keep my stalkers prod.. ).
2. If you're only making zealots, it implies you're teching to something else: either air ( which mutas counter ), or heavy robo ( which mutas counter ), so in both case mutas are a wise decision..
mutas don't counter air...? unless you go pure void.
On August 28 2011 12:23 Noumena wrote: I am not exactly sure what you mean by "don't have much tech/base defense." You should have a Twilight Council and a Robotics Facility, this allows you to transition into Blink Stalkers, Charge Zealots, Immortals, Templar, DTs, and Colossus. Pretty much you already have the Tier 2 to cover any tech into Tier 3. As far as losing your Warp Prism to queens or spores, then that is simply a fault in your micro, and really that's more of a mechanics issue than a build issue.
On August 28 2011 10:13 xomel wrote: also, what most people dont realize is that with spending all these minerals youre going to pool a bunch of gas and be able to easily throw up that templar archives and with a couple archons in your base you can almost completely shut down muta harassment while warping in chargelots to harass
This pretty much says it all. You are spending minerals on Warp Prisms/Zealots, but not gas. Archons with +2 Weapons and +1 Armor will absolutely rip apart Hydras/Roaches. If you see he has a couple Roaches to clean up your Zealots, start making Immortals while you continue to harass. I'll upload a couple of replays and edit this post once I have them.
Pretty much what DrKillFace said is how you handle early all-in aggression. Use the Zealots to keep any ling/bling or roach at bay, and get as many free cannon shots off as you can. Don't be afraid to over produce , since they are all-in.
As for Typhon Peaks, I honestly don't play the map. However, I would suggest doing a standard 3 gate with whatever opening you'd like into Forge and then a Robotics. Continue as normal after that. You get slower upgrades sure, but you don't die. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff
On August 30 2011 00:01 Noumena wrote: Pretty much what DrKillFace said is how you handle early all-in aggression. Use the Zealots to keep any ling/bling or roach at bay, and get as many free cannon shots off as you can. Don't be afraid to over produce , since they are all-in.
As for Typhon Peaks, I honestly don't play the map. However, I would suggest doing a standard 3 gate with whatever opening you'd like into Forge and then a Robotics. Continue as normal after that. You get slower upgrades sure, but you don't die. Seems like a reasonable tradeoff
Oh , and my name is in reference to the band.
good taste in music you have there \m/
after playing this all day I'm starting to realise its very dependant on upgrades, it makes your drops so much more effective (esp positioned behind the mineral line etc) and it means your army at home with defensive positioning can hold just about any all in- because of this I've been delaying my 3rd a little and getting a second forge after my TC and charge has started, taking my dt shrine (or TA) about the time I take my 3rd. I also dont think a TA is needed for feedback in this case as double upped zealot archons + immortals if they have roaches shreds any infestor comp, so I've been getting a dt shrine for even more harass and its been working well.
expanding on maps that arent taldarim or shakuras though, I always feel like if he 6 pools me, I'm dead hasnt happened yet but wondering how to deal with this? ty
Most zergs in diamond spore their mineral lines and build an extra queen as blind DT and air defense when they see a FFE. Does it effectively defend the warp prism play? I usually find it very difficult to get an air unit into a zerg main without getting spotted by an overlord and having 2-3 queens and a repositioning spore waiting for me. How is a prism easier to get in than a void ray?
Got it works one out of 3 times for me. Nice strategy, I am loving it and will refine my skill around it to make my execution better. One lesson I learnt so far is, to maximize the effect of this build, constant harassment is important!
Anyway, still have a few problem on some maps, like shattered temple and xelnaga carvern, do we still FFE? It seemed very risky as a full wall is quite far away.
However; I do think I crushed him not because the tactic is bad, but because I just have better mechanics/speed apm. (I'm mid platinum; he was high gold.) The fact that I scouted his zealots moving down didn't help though. (I also managed to get two lings in his main taking down a pylon and a probe also didn't help, I presume.)
It didn't feel to strong though, but that might be because I scouted the zealots and was able to do some early game damage.
In all fairness, if you were able to take down a pylon with two lings, then I think it's safe to assume he wasn't that good. This strat requires semi high APM and a decent grasp on mechanics.
As for the spore and queens,. Multiple pronged attacks. He can't have 6 queens ready to defend everything. If he does, you're ahead.
On August 28 2011 05:50 Nyast wrote: Cool, I particularly like the 2-gate zealots pressure, that's forcing a lot of lings from the Zerg and if you can surprise him, you can do tremendous damage with them.
As ffor the prisms, the idea is cool and it seems to work well but wouldn't it be an auto loss versus a Zerg that goes mutas ? Do you have any replay with mutas on 2 bases ? It sounds like they'd arrive at the same timing your harass starts.
Ever watched a TvZ before? Just because zerg builds mutalisks doesn't mean warp prisms/medivacs are rendered useless. The templar tech path that the OP suggests with this build will brilliantly counter 2 base muta play, due to the relatively quick blink and archons. Phase prisms actually are safer than when doing drops than medivacs are, because you never have to worry about units being sniped off in transit. Simply send over an empty prism, and once it safely arrives start to warp in units in the fog.
Think like a terran does though. Never blindly send a single drop, either send 2 drops at a different locations, or send 1 drop as you push out. Or, to be fancy, you can even sneak out a drop when the mutas are in your base. But sending out blind singular drops is asking for zerg to pick them off.
On August 28 2011 12:23 Noumena wrote: I am not exactly sure what you mean by "don't have much tech/base defense." You should have a Twilight Council and a Robotics Facility, this allows you to transition into Blink Stalkers, Charge Zealots, Immortals, Templar, DTs, and Colossus. Pretty much you already have the Tier 2 to cover any tech into Tier 3. As far as losing your Warp Prism to queens or spores, then that is simply a fault in your micro, and really that's more of a mechanics issue than a build issue.
On August 28 2011 10:13 xomel wrote: also, what most people dont realize is that with spending all these minerals youre going to pool a bunch of gas and be able to easily throw up that templar archives and with a couple archons in your base you can almost completely shut down muta harassment while warping in chargelots to harass
This pretty much says it all. You are spending minerals on Warp Prisms/Zealots, but not gas. Archons with +2 Weapons and +1 Armor will absolutely rip apart Hydras/Roaches. If you see he has a couple Roaches to clean up your Zealots, start making Immortals while you continue to harass. I'll upload a couple of replays and edit this post once I have them.
On August 28 2011 12:23 Noumena wrote: I am not exactly sure what you mean by "don't have much tech/base defense." You should have a Twilight Council and a Robotics Facility, this allows you to transition into Blink Stalkers, Charge Zealots, Immortals, Templar, DTs, and Colossus. Pretty much you already have the Tier 2 to cover any tech into Tier 3. As far as losing your Warp Prism to queens or spores, then that is simply a fault in your micro, and really that's more of a mechanics issue than a build issue.
On August 28 2011 10:13 xomel wrote: also, what most people dont realize is that with spending all these minerals youre going to pool a bunch of gas and be able to easily throw up that templar archives and with a couple archons in your base you can almost completely shut down muta harassment while warping in chargelots to harass
This pretty much says it all. You are spending minerals on Warp Prisms/Zealots, but not gas. Archons with +2 Weapons and +1 Armor will absolutely rip apart Hydras/Roaches. If you see he has a couple Roaches to clean up your Zealots, start making Immortals while you continue to harass. I'll upload a couple of replays and edit this post once I have them.
Really appreciate all the feedback and discussion. Didn't expect this strategy to be received so well.
On August 30 2011 01:42 Stropheum wrote: I'd like to know what your credentials are, no offense
I don't necessarily like to throw out names of "pro" players that I have beaten, mainly because I don't particularly see that as something classy or respectful. If you absolutely must know, the game I am most proud of is when I beat CheckPrime(bbaboomPrime on NA) in a 30minute game on Xel'Naga Caverns in a ZOTAC Cup NA. As for ladder, like I said in my OP, I am High Masters/GM. I say "/GM" because I could have been Grandmaster if I didn't use the Ladder as my testing grounds, sorry for the excuse but its the truth. =/
Keep on posting results/feedback, it makes my day I'll also be trying to work on a PvT build order involving Warp Prisms for anyone who is interested.
I've been watching all your replays like twice, first was I was curious about your late scouting concerning early pools, but you replied to these thoughts already in this thread. :-)
I've been trying this out the last two days a little bit myself, since i like to put on pressure to the zerg (I've been using zealots while feing to pressure the zerg myself, also starting +1 asap even before wg tech but your gas timings+cyber timing works much better. I really like that you use chargelot+immo+archon as a main unit composition vs the current common zerg styles of roach-ling, roach-infestor etc. However, I've had problems with zergs not getting a fast third and quickly getting their roach warren and not letting me get up my 3rd base. Do you have maybe more replays of you showing your style vs early roaches? Do you add a 2nd robo earlier in that case? Or do you just keep dropping hardcore and trying to snipe drones/queens/tech/hatches?
Lets say for instance the Zerg defends your attack and decides to make a few corruptors to fend off other possible drops ( keeping them outside the edges of your base to snipe the prisms )?
I haven't tested this out yet but usually when I play against Zerg they usually have like 3ish corruptors out just in case.
Just another possibility they can do.
Great post though I like it from reading it and will definitely test it tonight :D
That wouldn't be effective in any sense, craziekev. You wouldn't just get Phoenixs to surround your base to defend from drops. It is a huge investment for a Zerg to get a Spire, 200/200, and then Corruptors, 150/100??x3, just to defend a Warp Prism for 200 minerals. If this does happen though, there is a reason you have multiple Warp Prisms. They can't be everywhere at once, and with the power of warping in, you can.
Fairwell, in the case of an early roach warren, of course I throw down an early cannon, and only use one Warp Prism if I fear an attack or early aggression. Instead, I will be making mass Immortals/chargelots. I keep the Warp Prism alive for as long as possible, and drop in multiple locations, trying to steer away from the roaches as much as possible, and once Charge is finished, I continue to warp in mass Zealots. At this time , I take my third and do a push out with my main army. I'll upload a replay of this in a bit.
I'd just like to say that, even though i'm only in plat, I haven't lost since I started to do this. It's just so strong, lol. Not to mention so much fun. My macro slips a little bit because my multitasking just isn't that great, but I imagine that'll improve in time.
Hello! I haven't tried using this build or testing if for myself, yet after watching the replays, I feel as though you've crafted a fine opening for Protoss vs Zerg. I don't want to call this a full-blown Strategy however, simply due to the fact that you can really choose from so many different styles of play after you begin your harass.
I feel that if this becomes popular, Zergs may have no choice but to stop delaying their Lairs in ZvP.
One of my favorite things about Warp Prism play is that you get very easy influence on Xel Naga Towers. I also recommend bringing a probe with your warp prism to build pylons in hard-to-reach locations for vision and enhanced harassment opportunities.
On August 27 2011 20:11 userstupidname wrote: FINALLY
protoss take this to heart from a zerg
I have rambled on this forum on protoss to use the damn warpprism Hopefully protoss idiocy will end when people from your own group propagates for it >.<
Excellent post
User was banned for this post.
what the hell why was this guy banned. i totally vouch for him. this strategy is amazing, its one of the things that always crushes me when i play vs toss. zvp is my best MU, but this is one of the things that always kills me. zealots just kill tech SOO fast. another thing that i didnt see in the post was, when you drop, if you drop a sentry with the drop, you can FF the ramp. EZ extra time. :D
Do you use chargelot-immo-archon(ht for feedback) mix to counter roach (roach-infestor) in your games? With the style you have shown in this thread it never really got so far. :-)
I'm really interested, since the normal stalker-sentry-immo unit mix hasn't been working out too well for me lately once they switch over to some infestors and if you can't take your 3rd quickly hts consume too much gas for that usually. In the style your provided trying to go for this unit comp after not having early gases/sentries to build up energy it wouldn't make too much sense anyways, so i'm referring here also to other styles/games you play vs zerg.
I considered that, but I feel like it would just require too much extra APM that you will already be needing to control 2/3 Warp Prisms, macro, take new bases, upgrade, chrono, etc. Not a bad idea, but just a bit too fancy
Fairwell,
Yes, I love using charge lots, immortals, and archons sided with HT if there are A LOT of Infestors. One danger though is the clumping of Zealots, try to use small forces vs Infestors/Roaches because they can just chain fungal your units, Neural the archons/immortals, and wipe your big ball. Luckily, archons/immortal/zealots are amazing in small numbers, and infestors need to ball together to be able to chain fungal effectively.
So I tried this build, but my opponent saw the fast expo, and threw down a roach warren instead of an expand. I couldn't even hold this with 3 cannons. They just took out a building and ran the speedlings past, and that was it.
awesome guide - big fan of this style. have only got a couple of games in using it so far though with mixed success. i find that my ~100apm isn't quite enough for me to effectively do multi-pronged prism harass whilst macroing but i'm sure i'll improve.
i had one game though where i lost and wasn't entirely sure what to do. it was on antiga shipyard, Z got a quick third after seeing my FFE. i got quite a few drone kills and a queen kill with my initial pressure and eventually had a couple of prisms flying around dropping zealots while trying to pressure the front a bit. the zerg just spammed spines and spores at all three bases and with bunch of roaches roaming around was just shutting down my harass way too easily and i was donating zealots for very little damage in return. i tried to pump out some immortals but he eventually just overran me with mass roaches and a few hydra due to his superior econ. i got a third base up but it was a bit delayed (partly to me blocking the expo with a pylon... facepalm). my templar tech was also delayed due to my poor macro whilst harassing.
i'm just not sure what to do in a situation like this where he easily shuts down my harass and just gets way ahead in supply. will upload a replay when i'm home from work.
On August 30 2011 09:05 Thugtronik wrote: awesome guide - big fan of this style. have only got a couple of games in using it so far though with mixed success. i find that my ~100apm isn't quite enough for me to effectively do multi-pronged prism harass whilst macroing but i'm sure i'll improve.
i had one game though where i lost and wasn't entirely sure what to do. it was on antiga shipyard, Z got a quick third after seeing my FFE. i got quite a few drone kills and a queen kill with my initial pressure and eventually had a couple of prisms flying around dropping zealots while trying to pressure the front a bit. the zerg just spammed spines and spores at all three bases and with bunch of roaches roaming around was just shutting down my harass way too easily and i was donating zealots for very little damage in return. i tried to pump out some immortals but he eventually just overran me with mass roaches and a few hydra due to his superior econ. i got a third base up but it was a bit delayed (partly to me blocking the expo with a pylon... facepalm). my templar tech was also delayed due to my poor macro whilst harassing.
i'm just not sure what to do in a situation like this where he easily shuts down my harass and just gets way ahead in supply. will upload a replay when i'm home from work.
If the Zerg has "spammed Spines and Spores," then you are ahead without having to do any real damage. If you can do a poke here or there, then you're fine. The very moment you see a single Roach, make Immortals. Chronoboost Immortals out and make as many as you can. Once you have 3-4 with a solid number of Zealots and +2 Weapons, I would do a push out with Prisms, your Charge should be done at about this time and you will destroy him. This build honestly is all about the multi-tasking, and once you have that down, you will be practically unstoppable. You will ALWAYS cause damage and he effective with the Warp Prisms. Intelligence/scouting information in a RTS such as SC2, or any other game, is worth more than some minerals.
Wouldn't you die if the Zerg is going for a 2 base play? I mean... 4 zealots won't do much is he's massing an army. Usually a Zerg is already drones by 7 minutes and will start to produce army.
I think you need to add one thing. If going for chargelot archon HT mix you need to be super careful against broodlords in the later stages of the game. Getting a stargate or two and scouting for the hive timing is extremely important when you do take the 4th. Should the game get to that point it is.
On August 30 2011 08:58 Noumena wrote: Yes, I love using charge lots, immortals, and archons sided with HT if there are A LOT of Infestors. One danger though is the clumping of Zealots, try to use small forces vs Infestors/Roaches because they can just chain fungal your units, Neural the archons/immortals, and wipe your big ball. Luckily, archons/immortal/zealots are amazing in small numbers, and infestors need to ball together to be able to chain fungal effectively.
Just to make sure I understand that correctly, by doing multipronged attacks/warping in units etc you keep unit numbers small and there these units are very cost efficient (that is chargelots/immo/archon). You don't try to engage his army directly until you have secured a lead. I've tried a couple more matches and did exactly this, which worked out quite well for me (I play on a lower level though as you, my opponents are like mid master).
When playing the same style several times against the same opponent they try to adapt, getting roaches earlier, planting spines in mineral lines etc (the harassment still works though). If it happens that you both end up being somewhat equal on bases/income/army size and he managed to get a middlish-sized roach ball with some infestors together, do you switch your unit composition to something oldschool or just keep going and try to spread out your zealots better vs fg (they often don't have enough energy to fg all zealots + np other units then ...)? I've encountered the very same problem twice where the army ball got bigger and chainfungals on zealots + np on archon/immo killed my army.
Thanks for all the input so far, you are more or less revolutionizing my pvz right now. :-)
No. Have you watched any of the replays.. or read any of the discussion? =/
@ZeromuS
Yes, of course you won't stick on one army composition just like with any other strategy. If you must tech switch, then by all means do it. I could add this to the OP, but I figured it was a given.
@Fairwell
Precisely. Basically like what I told ZeromuS, you can tech switch if you feel it would be a wise move. The problem is that any staple Protoss army composition has a fairly cheap unit that clumps up, (stalkers and zealots), with power units that will be NP, (colossus/archons/immortals) and all require sufficient spreading and focus firing down of the Infestor.
What I mainly meant was that Infestors require clumping and a grouping. 2-3 Infestors can chain fungal, but that is assuming they're full energy, which is highly unlikely if you are harassing correctly. In the late game where you have a big enough army that needs to be spread, you can be doing various split attacks to do as much damage as possible.
Generally I like to send my main army to attack their 3rd or 4th, while I use a Warp Prism(s) at their expo or main base, warping in zealots and Archons.
My PvZ was my worst matchup, now I think PvZ is my VERY BEST matchup. Took me some time to refine it (I'm still refining it, actually), but even in a 'rough state' it worked sooooo, so well! Lots of rage quits of zergs saying they 'love how easy protoss is!' and that 'warp prism is OP!'.
I believe we're gonna see a lot of QQ threads saying that Zealots and Warp Prisms are OP. After that Immortal-WarpPrism buff, I think this build is gonna be so broken...
Just a few questions. You cant support 2 bases with 4 gateways ? i normally have to make 6 or 7. And also, how important is the warp prism speed in this. could it be justified getting the robo bay just for the speed or would you have to go down the colossus route ?
Tried this out in a few pub matches last night, and it does work.
My timings and execution are piss poor at the moment, but I can see myself using this regularly when I get the hang of it. Hard to learn a completely new way of playing pvz when I have relied on sentries forever!
TY for this build, im starting to do it right now! I think that this build + 2 robos constant immortal production will own zerg as hell! Sniping roach warrens, spires etc. with a quick back off option + zealots warpin for zerglings. So OP!
First off, love the idea of the build, but if you have any replays of the zerg going 2-base muta I'd love to see them. In my mind the zerg will be ahead as his mutas should pop right around when your prism trucks it over to their base and they should be able to fend it off with minimal losses. Then you are forced to cannon up, grab blink and start massing stalkers but you will be stuck on 2 bases while they will be free at that point to grab their 3rd. It's not an unwinnable situation but you will be behind.
You may scout the spire with earlier harass but I've seen quite a few Zergs lately hiding their spire in some obscure locations with the overlord spew creep ability.
On August 27 2011 18:25 skatbone wrote: Given that you don't like sentries and collosus, I'm wondering how you respond to a 2-base hydra attack on your wall, or a hydra-ling-nydus into your main.
I ask this not to discount your build, but out of genuine curiosity. I've encountered this a number of times at my lowly diamond level when I FFE.
Get one warp prism while building a robo bay?
And how about versus fast spire builds?
Again, I'm not discounting, just wondering how you handle the other options options (besides roach warren, lots of lings, and fast third) that a zerg has.
I have tried warp prism play before, but never with multiple prism. Great idea.
Hmmmm, I haven't really used colossus in PvZ / PvT since I hate them so much (and sentries to an extent).
You find ways to deal with hydra aggression as protoss. Blink Stalker & armor upgrades w/ sentry works well until HT are out (with immortals to deal with roaches). The key is to not be surprised by the hydras when they walk up in to your base, which hallucination provides.
Blink stalkers are pretty much a swiss army knife against zerg until infestors come out, and its just a small leap to HT from them, so there really isn't a scenario where opening blink stalkers is bad.
Also, chargelot flanks really put the hurt on hydras. Anytime you're trading minerals for minerals and gas is good, just save the merchandise when things start to get dicey (sentries, HT, stalkers especially). Too many protoss players are losing stalkers willy-nilly and I can attribute most of my losses to this happening.
I'm around 600 points in masters (~100 games played).
Very good and cost effective harassment, definitely will be more careful about my army positioning in the future. Generally, a very good guide for the protoss players, hopefully they can be more creative in the future.
Can this style work vs Terran? I was working on similar style vs Terran a month or two ago and done some play test with mixed results. I was thinking more on the lines of quickly teching to Chargelots and Archons but with less warp-prism use.
On August 30 2011 09:19 Kluey wrote: Wouldn't you die if the Zerg is going for a 2 base play? I mean... 4 zealots won't do much is he's massing an army. Usually a Zerg is already drones by 7 minutes and will start to produce army.
If you check out the replays of the OP you'll see that he is able to keep his money quite low by good usage of cb/using his warping cycles/basically produce nonstop prism/immos out of his robo. With the leftover money at the point where his worker count starts to get beyond 50 on 2 base he is already starting to think about a 3rd base which (depending on the gameflow) he is trying to take around 9-10min (in some matches it was a bit later or even cancelled, whenever he is able to do so). He adds more gateways later on when his 3rd base is on the way or up and running ofc.
Constant production out of a robo (prism/immos) actually consumes quite some ressources as well, hence why he gets away with 4 gateways till that point in the game.
As a NA grandmaster protoss... this build is fucking insane!
Major props man. I love it! I get 2 warp prisms later on though. You can spread out the zerg army so hard. The super quick +1 is insane as well. <3<3<3
Will definitely be playing around with this build every PvZ where I can FFE. Also the lovely thing is both the immortal and warp prism are getting buffs. Fun times incoming
On August 31 2011 03:18 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Can this style work vs Terran? I was working on similar style vs Terran a month or two ago and done some play test with mixed results. I was thinking more on the lines of quickly teching to Chargelots and Archons but with less warp-prism use.
To a certain extent, yes, the same concepts will apply. However with Terran you can't do the early aggression with pure Zealots for obvious reasons, and you will want to create a bigger main army with a single Prism harassing. Generally I like to open 1 gate FE into Robo, into 3 more gates. This holds off a good number of openings, and allows me to use Warp Prisms.
Really glad to see everyone is enjoying the build!
Just a question OP, which type of zerg defense usually works well against your build? Or rather, which type of zerg defense and play style you would have the most trouble with this heavy-warp prism usage build? It is great when i ladder as toss, but i would love to know how to stop/deal with it accordingly. Or you won't share its weakness with us :p
This build is awesome, adding a few immortals to snipe tech (they scale super well vs armoured with upgrades) adds quite a lot too. I don't really like the fact that you don't scout before plopping your nexus though, you might suffer horribly from a 7 pool.
Now if only I had an opener that doesn't put me behind on maps where I can't FFE.
On August 31 2011 09:35 TolEranceNA wrote: Just a question OP, which type of zerg defense usually works well against your build? Or rather, which type of zerg defense and play style you would have the most trouble with this heavy-warp prism usage build? It is great when i ladder as toss, but i would love to know how to stop/deal with it accordingly. Or you won't share its weakness with us :p
Honestly, I am not exactly sure. To put it in better terms, it isn't a build but more of an opening like someone else in this thread has mentioned. Just because a Terran gets Medivacs and uses them to drop, it doesn't make their build a "Medivac build." The versatility with this opening is what makes it so strong, and as the Protoss player you are able to adapt and react according to what the Zerg defends with and decides to make. Unfortunately, I can't really tell you how to stop/deal with it because I am not a Zerg player and don't have enough knowledge to really suggest anything.
As for the scouting, I am not controlling your hands or your play style You can scout earlier if you'd like.
On August 31 2011 09:35 TolEranceNA wrote: Just a question OP, which type of zerg defense usually works well against your build? Or rather, which type of zerg defense and play style you would have the most trouble with this heavy-warp prism usage build? It is great when i ladder as toss, but i would love to know how to stop/deal with it accordingly. Or you won't share its weakness with us :p
Honestly, I am not exactly sure. To put it in better terms, it isn't a build but more of an opening like someone else in this thread has mentioned. Just because a Terran gets Medivacs and uses them to drop, it doesn't make their build a "Medivac build." The versatility with this opening is what makes it so strong, and as the Protoss player you are able to adapt and react according to what the Zerg defends with and decides to make. Unfortunately, I can't really tell you how to stop/deal with it because I am not a Zerg player and don't have enough knowledge to really suggest anything.
As for the scouting, I am not controlling your hands or your play style You can scout earlier if you'd like.
Thanks for the reply, i guess i will have to make 3 spines and 1 spore at my base when i see heavy warp prism usages :[ , at least they will be useful for DTs after
Just lost a game against a zerg who went 2 base hydra ling. my 4 zealot pressure killed 2 queens, lots of lings and a couple drones. first prism harass after that scouted the hydra den and i killed it only to discover he had built two hydra dens (wat?). zealots were killed before being able to take that down. he then just rallied hydra ling to my front door and I couldn't hold it.
obviously since he made the mistake of building two it kinda worked in his favour since he had only built about 7 hydra when i sniped the first den. however, if in a normal game he had just built one and i hadnt managed to kill it how do i respond? i feel like archons, storm or colossus are too far away for me to get them out in time to respond to a hydra bust? replay is below. my macro is terrible of course, only just got back into playing 1v1 and my mechanics are pretty rusty. diamond level btw.
p.s. noumena i love you for posting this guide <3 im a bit below 50% winrate with this cos i'm still getting the hang of the multitasking but goddamn i'm having fun with it. warp prisms are the shit cant wait for the next patch
edit: watching my replay i can see that my twilight council was at least 1:30 slower than it could have been. i guess dropping that faster and getting charge straight away means my zealots can handle hydra ling? then after charge has started throw down a templar archives?
I'm really liking a second forge right after the TC+ charge, and constantly chronoing double ups- delays your expo but makes your drops alllll the more effective, and IMO makes it easier to defend counters
On August 31 2011 11:33 Thugtronik wrote: Just lost a game against a zerg who went 2 base hydra ling. my 4 zealot pressure killed 2 queens, lots of lings and a couple drones. first prism harass after that scouted the hydra den and i killed it only to discover he had built two hydra dens (wat?). zealots were killed before being able to take that down. he then just rallied hydra ling to my front door and I couldn't hold it.
obviously since he made the mistake of building two it kinda worked in his favour since he had only built about 7 hydra when i sniped the first den. however, if in a normal game he had just built one and i hadnt managed to kill it how do i respond? i feel like archons, storm or colossus are too far away for me to get them out in time to respond to a hydra bust? replay is below. my macro is terrible of course, only just got back into playing 1v1 and my mechanics are pretty rusty. diamond level btw.
p.s. noumena i love you for posting this guide <3 im a bit below 50% winrate with this cos i'm still getting the hang of the multitasking but goddamn i'm having fun with it. warp prisms are the shit cant wait for the next patch
edit: watching my replay i can see that my twilight council was at least 1:30 slower than it could have been. i guess dropping that faster and getting charge straight away means my zealots can handle hydra ling? then after charge has started throw down a templar archives?
Upgraded Charge lots will pretty much handle any type of hydra/ling aggression, and if you are able to have a Warp Prism in his base using maybe 1/4 Gates to make him waste a bit of APM at home, then even better. Never be afraid to throw up some extra Cannons, as they will take care of the Lings quite nicely. If you so desire, you can transition into Colossus since you already have the Robo, but I personally like Templar better because of Archon warp ins.
On August 27 2011 18:25 skatbone wrote: Given that you don't like sentries and collosus, I'm wondering how you respond to a 2-base hydra attack on your wall, or a hydra-ling-nydus into your main.
I ask this not to discount your build, but out of genuine curiosity. I've encountered this a number of times at my lowly diamond level when I FFE.
Get one warp prism while building a robo bay?
And how about versus fast spire builds?
Again, I'm not discounting, just wondering how you handle the other options options (besides roach warren, lots of lings, and fast third) that a zerg has.
I have tried warp prism play before, but never with multiple prism. Great idea.
Hmmmm, I haven't really used colossus in PvZ / PvT since I hate them so much (and sentries to an extent).
You find ways to deal with hydra aggression as protoss. Blink Stalker & armor upgrades w/ sentry works well until HT are out (with immortals to deal with roaches). The key is to not be surprised by the hydras when they walk up in to your base, which hallucination provides.
Blink stalkers are pretty much a swiss army knife against zerg until infestors come out, and its just a small leap to HT from them, so there really isn't a scenario where opening blink stalkers is bad.
Also, chargelot flanks really put the hurt on hydras. Anytime you're trading minerals for minerals and gas is good, just save the merchandise when things start to get dicey (sentries, HT, stalkers especially). Too many protoss players are losing stalkers willy-nilly and I can attribute most of my losses to this happening.
I'm around 600 points in masters (~100 games played).
Thanks for the response. I share your disdain for collosus, though I have had trouble microing blink stalkers against hydras. This led me back to collosus-tech.
I've always wanted to know: how do you keep your APM above 300 at 15 seconds? People always say 'Oh, you just need to spam'. What does that mean, exactly? Because your APM, Noumena, hit 514 at 20 seconds, more or less. I wanna do that too >.>
On September 01 2011 00:00 Avan wrote: I've always wanted to know: how do you keep your APM above 300 at 15 seconds? People always say 'Oh, you just need to spam'. What does that mean, exactly? Because your APM, Noumena, hit 514 at 20 seconds, more or less. I wanna do that too >.>
Well , what I do to get that high early APM is going through my control groups and selecting workers. Mostly it's to get my hands ready to be moving that fast later on, but normally I'll only average low 200's at the end of the game. That is part of the reason this strategy works so well for me, is I have a decent capability to move fast and multi task
This build is just amazing! Smashed some top masters zerg today. Again. And I'm not nearly executing it optimal.
I must confess that I have one major concern. This strat feels a bit OP (10 of 10 so far on ladder, none game was even close) so I hope blizz won't decide to nerf warp prisms instead of buff in new patch. ^^
If you manage to pull out some simiilar pvt (hopefully not a pvp :D) build you will become my favourite toss.
On September 01 2011 11:13 XelNaga89 wrote: This build is just amazing! Smashed some top masters zerg today. Again. And I'm not nearly executing it optimal.
I must confess that I have one major concern. This strat feels a bit OP (10 of 10 so far on ladder, none game was even close) so I hope blizz won't decide to nerf warp prisms instead of buff in new patch. ^^
If you manage to pull out some simiilar pvt (hopefully not a pvp :D) build you will become my favourite toss.
First just wanted to say thank you to Noumena for writing up this guide. I have been struggling badly with Zerg lately (High Plats/Low Diamonds) because I was unable to force pressure with the builds I was using but this strategy is spectacular for that purpose!
They couldn't really nerf the Prism any more than it is now, the problem with this strategy and how effective it is the warp in mechanic they built into our race. It is really hard to balance around since if used properly by players like Noumena, White-Ra and some others it is really hard to stop.
But then again I think this is one of those moments that iNcontrol mentioned on STOG about how the players get accustomed to being able to do a certain build and still expect to win. Most of the zerg I've played when they spot my ForgeFE they go for a quick third which is pretty much instant death, at least in my experiences in plat. A few Zergs that saw the build for what it was went for a strong 2 Base Roach/Infestor compositon that caused some big problems for me.
TL;DR I think before any Zerg come in here and claim OP they should experiment with some strong 2 base play.
What I am enjoying about this build is the massive amount of gas I have freed up to put into Immortals and high templar/archon. I normally love my sentries, but wow, they are a gas sink. Playing this style makes 2-base templar more feasible.
For the zerg asking about counters, how about defensive infestors to fungal the prisms?
On September 01 2011 21:00 neoghaleon55 wrote: My question is You're advocating the use of primarily zealots against lings... So how do you stop zergs that will mix in speed banes?
I am advocating the primary use of Zealots, yes. However, I am not advocating that you ONLY use Zealots, rather to use Archons/immortals/etc. Have you ever seen speed banes vs Archons ?
If they are quick Banelings, then I would just suggest doing Zealot drops on a group of Banes and since it takes quite a few banelings to kill a Zealot, you will always come out on top. Really banelings would be a bad choice imo.
Thanks everyone for your kind words, keep on winning those PvZs
one of my first games , have to get used to the timings, but i had so much pleasure from the general concept of being the active player. so i wanted to thank you and share an entertaining PvZ
in fact many of my opponents take the 2base muta way after the first harrass.but i think if you see only lings you can add HT tech faster than usual ( works also vs infestors ,so you can t be wrong)
So someone attempted to counter me today using this build by sneaking in a drone and building a hatchery in my base and then making lings/spinecrawlers... Cutting to the point I surrounded it with cannons and proceeded to victory march like 20 zealots in his nearly defenseless base..
On September 03 2011 07:12 TolEranceNA wrote: Just a question OP, what was the best zerg response you have seen with this play style and lost to it? Or it is just that "good" ?
A spire being started by the 5:30 mark and mutas out at 7 mins or so. However, I still won. My first straight up loss (no all-ins etc.) was to someone who had Roaches by the time I was at his base with my 4 Zealots, but I want to credit that loss to just poor execution and play on my part =/ Generally forgetting your cybercore isn't the best play.
On September 03 2011 07:12 TolEranceNA wrote: Just a question OP, what was the best zerg response you have seen with this play style and lost to it? Or it is just that "good" ?
A spire being started by the 5:30 mark and mutas out at 7 mins or so. However, I still won. My first straight up loss (no all-ins etc.) was to someone who had Roaches by the time I was at his base with my 4 Zealots, but I want to credit that loss to just poor execution and play on my part =/ Generally forgetting your cybercore isn't the best play.
. Forgetting Cybercore is almost as bad as going 1 gate 4 core timing attack...
On September 03 2011 07:12 TolEranceNA wrote: Just a question OP, what was the best zerg response you have seen with this play style and lost to it? Or it is just that "good" ?
A spire being started by the 5:30 mark and mutas out at 7 mins or so. However, I still won. My first straight up loss (no all-ins etc.) was to someone who had Roaches by the time I was at his base with my 4 Zealots, but I want to credit that loss to just poor execution and play on my part =/ Generally forgetting your cybercore isn't the best play.
So i guess i will have to leave some of my army in base like i would in zvt : [
Well thanks OP for providing this incredibly strategy to the protoss players, hope fully more of them will start using warp prism instead of QQing about PvZ. And thanks for making me days harder
Hey, I'm not a toss (I play zerg) so I don't know how feasible this is, but what if during warp mode you warped in a couple sentries and then FFed the ramp so that the zerg couldn't get his army up to his base.
Someone did a blink push like this where he blinked into the main and had a warp prism drop a few sentries. I couldn't get my army up to the main (my burrow move for roaches was mid-research) and he killed my lair before his sentries ran out of energy. I don't know if this would work at a high level with a better zerg player, but I thought it was cool.
On August 31 2011 11:33 Thugtronik wrote: Just lost a game against a zerg who went 2 base hydra ling. my 4 zealot pressure killed 2 queens, lots of lings and a couple drones. first prism harass after that scouted the hydra den...
Your 4 zealot pressure larva starved him. No queens + need to replace drones means no lings are possible, but he also needs an army pronto. His only choice is to tech + drone now, mass up when injects are online. Even if he's putting up crawlers there's money floating without queens making larva. Hydras do well against gateway armies and are the fastest building lair tech by a LOT. You could have assumed 2 base hydra right there.
and i killed it only to discover he had built two hydra dens (wat?).
LOL I've done that. One of those was supposed to be a nydus network. We never hit v->n, your fingers think you mean v->h when you try... especially if you're still thinking about the hydra den you just made.
zealots were killed before being able to take that down. he then just rallied hydra ling to my front door and I couldn't hold it.
Mistarget on your part. Your advantage was his restricted unit count, and hydras weren't going to be a show stopper. How many zealots did this cost you? Next time kill drones/queens and throw down gates. Defend with mass warp in by your cannons if you can't tech to aoe. Charge would be fine too.
I've been doing this build for a day now against various Zerg opponents and it works great. You need a lot of apm to pull it off though. Im only a plat player so i did not pull off the build perfectly. I was floating a lot of minerals in all of the games, but i managed to deal hard blows to their economy, so not the biggest deal. Still if i had the apm i would be way ahead.
Also what i like about the build is that you're always ahead in upgrades and the use of warp prism is something i like. Im know for sure that im gonna start using this in every Zerg match up on the ladder.
Also, in my first game i got demolished by a player who made a nydus worm and just a lot of roaches early on, so beware of something like that. Mutalisks was an easy task
hmm.. just watched the game on abyssal caverns and not really convinced. edit: realized that was the one labled 'strong opener tons of damage' :D
FFE no scout, gotta be annoying if lings get by (any pool before 12?)... blind 3 zealots if he makes any amount of lings or roach ling they die for free, no micro queens ftw and 3 zealots kill 3rd base that guy was bad :O I guess the potential for damage like that makes it worth it though.
Interesting it did so much lol maybe i overestimate my opponentsO.o looks fun ill try it out
OP I LOVE this build and this guide thank you soo much PvZ was so rough. Since i started doing this on ladder (Diamond Protoss) my PvZ went from like 45% w/l to 65% w/l :D I have a couple of zergs who are fans of 9 and 12 pool in my team '>.> and this still works great when you have to wall in before nexus. Their transitions/econ take a nice of enough hit from the lings they made at first and having their third denied that the zealot drop into the main mineral line usually kills them outright. So much fun!
what do you do against a 2 base ling/bane bust against your natural, when your not building sentrys? Usually the banes can be made before you scout it or theres enough lings allready made to shut down the first 4 zealots
On September 04 2011 10:16 MaK UK wrote: what do you do against a 2 base ling/bane bust against your natural, when your not building sentrys? Usually the banes can be made before you scout it or theres enough lings allready made to shut down the first 4 zealots
same again but with a roach/ling all in?
Yeah I'm running into issues with this as well. I've been barely scraping by just making 2-3 extra cannons and smart simcity but it gets pretty ugly at times. I feel you kind of need sentries if they go all out with it. Another issue is actually knowing it's coming and preparing for it. I'm starting to incorporate poking out with my zealot(s) every so often and if you see a lot of lings it probably will mean a baneling bust. Often times I've caught the zerg morphing banelings since most zergs will just morph the banelings right outside your base.
But I too would like to know how the OP handles baneling busts, both 1 and 2 base varieties.
Very good opening I feel. Works very well as it is quite hard to scout, except for the very obvious research on forge.
However I think this really gets countered by early lings as you can never fully cover a FE with only one cannon. The very late cannon/gateway makes it very dangerous on open maps like XNC, it's kinda like 1 gate FE, very risky i feel.
Also, I do believe it's pretty weak against a zerg who goes banelings and sets himself up for a bling drop on you. But then again bling drops are one of the hardest things to stop as protoss, along with roach infestors.
Smart cannon placement makes it easier to defend on maps like XNC where you place the cannon above the Gas. You will defend early ling aggression just like with any other build.. just because you use Warp Prisms doesn't mean you can't play like you normally do, thats the beauty of the build.
As for banelings, it is hard to defend on large open maps, and I don't suggest doing this build on large naturals, for instance Typhon Peaks. However, to successfully defend it you should able to scout the Baneling nest with your initial poke, and can plan accordingly. Reinforce your wall with gateways/cannons etc. I wouldn't suggest going Warp Prism after successfully defending an attack like this, since it is pretty all-in if they're trying to bust a SMART Protoss Wall.
When I say "smart," a Terran player would understand this. A baneling proof wall does not have vulnerable points where there is only a Pylon blocking. Same thing goes or ZvT, you won't find a Terran walling off with only Supply Depots.
Edit: You can get sentries since you are doing a pretty mineral heavy build, but I choose not to rely on them too much because of how imbalanced I think FF's are (just like I don't like Concussive Shells with Stim, and Fungal Growth.) Use my build as a guide to help you with your games, not as a set in stone build order that can never be altered.
Played about 10 pvz's using this style but all i can say is muta locks down this build hard. Warp prism harras is so hard against muta's and unless you have about 4 cannons, your going to have to commit your archons to defending the mineral lines, which results in hard to take 3rd
Mak - I encountered fast mutas the first time I tried this on shakuras plateau, and all you need to do is swtich to stalkers with a couple archons. add a couple more cannons to your mineral lines and then when you feel ready, push out. He can't harass your base when you attack him or else you will win the base trade, and the stalkers should mop up the mutas while archons tank the lings that he would be making alongside them.
edit - I will agree the 3rd is hard to take, if not impossible.
On September 05 2011 01:35 WoolySheep wrote: Mak - I encountered fast mutas the first time I tried this on shakuras plateau, and all you need to do is swtich to stalkers with a couple archons. add a couple more cannons to your mineral lines and then when you feel ready, push out. He can't harass your base when you attack him or else you will win the base trade, and the stalkers should mop up the mutas while archons tank the lings that he would be making alongside them.
edit - I will agree the 3rd is hard to take, if not impossible.
Can you post the replay for this, please? My experience as Z is that when playing ling/muta vs archon/stalker the stalkers auto-target the zerglings due to them being closer than mutas. It usually doesn't end that well for P if the armies are comparable in resources (more or less: 1 muta and 6 zerglings every 2 stalkers, 5 mutas every 2 archons).
On September 05 2011 01:35 WoolySheep wrote: Mak - I encountered fast mutas the first time I tried this on shakuras plateau, and all you need to do is swtich to stalkers with a couple archons. add a couple more cannons to your mineral lines and then when you feel ready, push out. He can't harass your base when you attack him or else you will win the base trade, and the stalkers should mop up the mutas while archons tank the lings that he would be making alongside them.
edit - I will agree the 3rd is hard to take, if not impossible.
Can you post the replay for this, please? My experience as Z is that when playing ling/muta vs archon/stalker the stalkers auto-target the zerglings due to them being closer than mutas. It usually doesn't end that well for P if the armies are comparable in resources (more or less: 1 muta and 6 zerglings every 2 stalkers, 5 mutas every 2 archons).
You want to mix in some zealots to deal with the lings, and try to blink the stalkers right underneath the mutas after you engage. Also if possible you want to FF the mutas with your archons (if you have more than a few archons it's likely not all the archons are in range so just select each archon that is in range of the mutas individually and target the mutas). It only takes like a couple of archon hits to destroy packs of mutas due to splash. Guardian shield is also very important.
I have to say from just watching the replays... this build is absolutely fucking sick. Will be trying this a ton and will report back when I can. Thanks for your unique approach dude
I've lost to stuff like this. Zealots everywhere at my bases. A few sentries are killer ffing off my ramps, taking out all my tech, I went roaches and then immortals from the robo after he had enough warp prisms destroyed me. This is very very powerful, if new patch goes through, well let's just say I might not be playing zerg nearly as much and it also says the warp prism really doesn't need a buff, it just needs to be used better.
Been playing this for a few days and can only say that it works very well and it has quickly made the zerg matchup my best.
I'm in gold - so here's my perspective from lower level play: there is few in gold / plat that quickly expands to third unlike higher levels where this build is at its best. Those who do however is often quickly forced to gg.
What I have lost to:
1 base roach all inns should be easy to hold with plenty of cannons, I made 5-6. Do not have any holes where they can just run into your main btw... Was punished hard for that one.
Nydus in main with roach from 2 bases. After that I have made more pylons in main instead of randomly puttting them around (should of course be obvious - remember - I'm in gold
3-4 games where I just make one prism and don't use it very well and I generally play against a better player.
Never lost when I use two prisms and harass at the same time as larger engagements.
It's so simple but I have never thought of it. I guess the reason for that is my incomprehension of the strategy part of SC2. But I have to say, I tried to incorporate few things from this guide into my PvZ with hell of a success. Simply build few Zealots with +1, then add warp prism, and after that dump money intro production and tech. Good old zerg pressure - everyone know that it's necessary, but how to do that effectively is always the question. Well, now I know how. 5 wins with zerg so far in Diamond EU for me, where I had like 30% overall ratio vZ before.
On September 05 2011 01:35 WoolySheep wrote: Mak - I encountered fast mutas the first time I tried this on shakuras plateau, and all you need to do is swtich to stalkers with a couple archons. add a couple more cannons to your mineral lines and then when you feel ready, push out. He can't harass your base when you attack him or else you will win the base trade, and the stalkers should mop up the mutas while archons tank the lings that he would be making alongside them.
edit - I will agree the 3rd is hard to take, if not impossible.
Can you post the replay for this, please? My experience as Z is that when playing ling/muta vs archon/stalker the stalkers auto-target the zerglings due to them being closer than mutas. It usually doesn't end that well for P if the armies are comparable in resources (more or less: 1 muta and 6 zerglings every 2 stalkers, 5 mutas every 2 archons).
You want to mix in some zealots to deal with the lings, and try to blink the stalkers right underneath the mutas after you engage. Also if possible you want to FF the mutas with your archons (if you have more than a few archons it's likely not all the archons are in range so just select each archon that is in range of the mutas individually and target the mutas). It only takes like a couple of archon hits to destroy packs of mutas due to splash. Guardian shield is also very important.
Yeah, I wasn't implying that there is no way to deal with muta+ling. I'm just saying that "switching to stalkers and mixing in a couple archons" doesn't seem to describe a good way to fight the composition. I wanted to see the replay to check if WoolySheep actually meant to mix in stalkers, or if there was a sufficient head start to be able to mass enough stalkers to just trounce the zerg before army numbers got high, or... whatever else might interfere with theorycraft, which only goes so far.
(I'm also somewhat doubtful about blinking right underneath the mutas, since that looks like it would defeat the purpose of having zealots to tank the lings - it sort of messes up with archon positioning, too. That is an entirely different remark from my skepticism about pure stalker+archon, however)
Just a couple of replays (victories) I've had with this play. I would be happy if someone could point out what I could have done better and if I'm doing this right. As far as I see, I'm kind of doing the build ok, but would be happy to hear comments.
On September 05 2011 01:35 WoolySheep wrote: Mak - I encountered fast mutas the first time I tried this on shakuras plateau, and all you need to do is swtich to stalkers with a couple archons. add a couple more cannons to your mineral lines and then when you feel ready, push out. He can't harass your base when you attack him or else you will win the base trade, and the stalkers should mop up the mutas while archons tank the lings that he would be making alongside them.
edit - I will agree the 3rd is hard to take, if not impossible.
Can you post the replay for this, please? My experience as Z is that when playing ling/muta vs archon/stalker the stalkers auto-target the zerglings due to them being closer than mutas. It usually doesn't end that well for P if the armies are comparable in resources (more or less: 1 muta and 6 zerglings every 2 stalkers, 5 mutas every 2 archons).
You want to mix in some zealots to deal with the lings, and try to blink the stalkers right underneath the mutas after you engage. Also if possible you want to FF the mutas with your archons (if you have more than a few archons it's likely not all the archons are in range so just select each archon that is in range of the mutas individually and target the mutas). It only takes like a couple of archon hits to destroy packs of mutas due to splash. Guardian shield is also very important.
Yeah, I wasn't implying that there is no way to deal with muta+ling. I'm just saying that "switching to stalkers and mixing in a couple archons" doesn't seem to describe a good way to fight the composition. I wanted to see the replay to check if WoolySheep actually meant to mix in stalkers, or if there was a sufficient head start to be able to mass enough stalkers to just trounce the zerg before army numbers got high, or... whatever else might interfere with theorycraft, which only goes so far.
(I'm also somewhat doubtful about blinking right underneath the mutas, since that looks like it would defeat the purpose of having zealots to tank the lings - it sort of messes up with archon positioning, too. That is an entirely different remark from my skepticism about pure stalker+archon, however)
Zealots are not there to just tank but to actually kill the lings as well. Blinking stalkers under the mutas will cause a portion of your stalkers to target the mutas just because of the targeting AI. Sure I mean obviously don't blink stalkers if their mutas are behind their lings but 99% of the time their mutas will flank from another side and focus fire your stalkers as he knows he can clean up your zealots if all you stalkers are killed.
But really if you have zealot/archon/stalker you'll probably destroyo mutaling with little micro, the issue is just making them engage your army w/o ramming your head into his wall of spinecrawlers. I've lately been grabbing my 3rd during the initial warp prism harass and if I spot mutas I'll grab blink ASAP and cannon up all my bases, then focus on denying the zerg 3rd which on most maps is a lot harder for zerg to defend than their main base and natural and eventually just wittle them down.
Doesn't the amount of scouting coming out of this build make it very easy to spot the spire? So why not just build one or two stargates in response and pump Phoenixes to deal with the mutas?
On September 07 2011 19:41 RRjr wrote: Doesn't the amount of scouting coming out of this build make it very easy to spot the spire? So why not just build one or two stargates in response and pump Phoenixes to deal with the mutas?
Yes it does, actually. I played around a little bit with it, and you definitely see the spire when it is building. I tried just making blink stalkers to deal with it, since twilight was already going down to start working towards HTs, but throwing down 2 stargates right as I see it could do really well, too. If they cancel it, then whatever other tech they decide to go will be much slower anyways.
I think at that point, after landing some +1 zealots in their base for harass, going 2 star phoenix would let me get a fast 3rd on a map like tal'darim. Zealot/phoenix is already so strong on that map, but this would make it even better. Same for shattered, too. Hmm, time for some more testing. I really like the quick prism, though. Don't need to get an observer until you move out, because cannons provide detection at the front, the only place you need it. Allows for a lot of pressure potential against zerg. PvZ has been so fun lately
whitera doing something like this build. if zerg takes a fast third i'd say this is another/better response if you want to just kill him 7-8 gate 2 base warp in attack combines with ramp is awesome when it works.
Just tried out the build, it went really well, better than I thought, I especially liked the four zealot attack, can really catch a zerg of guard, and can snipe a few queens or drones.
Zealot immortal also deals with roaches quite rapidly as well.
One problem I faced though was that I banked a lot of resources. The gas I can understand, because you can dump it into archons/HT, but the minerals could be an issue. A solution I can think of would be just more gateways and cannons at expos.
I like the multitasking part of the strat as well, really helps me improve as a random player
On September 10 2011 04:09 Mr.X546 wrote: Just tried out the build, it went really well, better than I thought, I especially liked the four zealot attack, can really catch a zerg of guard, and can snipe a few queens or drones.
Zealot immortal also deals with roaches quite rapidly as well.
One problem I faced though was that I banked a lot of resources. The gas I can understand, because you can dump it into archons/HT, but the minerals could be an issue. A solution I can think of would be just more gateways and cannons at expos.
I like the multitasking part of the strat as well, really helps me improve as a random player
Looking forward to 1.4!
Thanks for the build!
I tried yesterday too, an it went reaaaaaly well, thanks to the OP! ^^
I would suggest you to drop unusual amounts of wargates, given that with the warprisms around the zerg base you can apply enourmous located amounts of pression if you use the warp-in mode of the warprism. So this way, for instance, you can warpin 8 zealots in his third just after he is finishing to deal with another warpin you did in another base.
I'm not able to watch your replay, I download them but I just can't watch them. Can you upload your replays on an other website? I'm very interested by your strat and I would like to watch your replay.
Been using this with great success on ladder recently (low-mid master).
The +1 3 zealot strike is just sick...most Zergs respond to a FFE or nexus first with a super fast greedy 3rd and that strange timing attack rips it apart.
The real fun part is being able to be active with units all game. Way more fun than defensively constructing a deathball to steamroll across the map IMO.
This build got me hooked on chargelots...so much more fun than colossus micro!
This is a very good strat I saw response do this against...i think it was mondragon...Super annoying to deal with against zerg just as dealing with terran drops. But atleast vs. Terran you're going to make mutas anyways, but vs. toss going mutas is difficult to pull off...
:o just watched one of the games on shattered, was incredible
Whenever I got lazy watching that replay I would miss a bunch of zealots slicing shit up, I actually had to rewind a few times because I wondered when the zerg lost his natural, so I hate to think how your opponents would have felt :p
Just one complaint though, I assume because you were playing with people you knew that you got a bit greedy... I.e 15 nexus on shattered temple despite not scouting, you would have insta lost against an early pool. Apart from that awesome game, gonna watch a few more.
After laddering with this opening a bunch I think the 2 things you have to watch out for that you didn't cover in the early to mid-game is baneling busts and quick tech switch to hydras in the mid-game.
2-base baneling busts will hit you right around when your zealots are trucking it over, so if you see way more lings in the early game than normal it's 99% chance he's going for a baneling bust. I usually throw down 2-3 more cannons and chrono out 1-2 sentries ASAP.
The hydra tech switch caught me off-guard a couple of times. The hydra den and hydras themselves pop out pretty fast and a lot of zergs I'm facing are doing this when they see the heavy immortal mid-game, so be sure to tech switch over to HT fairly quickly after you throw down your twilight council.
On September 12 2011 14:52 Skyro wrote: After laddering with this opening a bunch I think the 2 things you have to watch out for that you didn't cover in the early to mid-game is baneling busts and quick tech switch to hydras in the mid-game.
2-base baneling busts will hit you right around when your zealots are trucking it over, so if you see way more lings in the early game than normal it's 99% chance he's going for a baneling bust. I usually throw down 2-3 more cannons and chrono out 1-2 sentries ASAP.
The hydra tech switch caught me off-guard a couple of times. The hydra den and hydras themselves pop out pretty fast and a lot of zergs I'm facing are doing this when they see the heavy immortal mid-game, so be sure to tech switch over to HT fairly quickly after you throw down your twilight council.
I agree with the baneling bust being something you have to watch out for, and I have been encountering it a couple of times... along with a lot of other varied all-ins such as 9pool pull all drones.....
However for the Hydras, I don't necessarily think you should just be going heavy-immortal for your mid-game, unless you see Roaches. By this time you should have your TC up and be researching chargelots with +2 wep +1 armor (assuming you're upgrading properly), will destroy Hydralisks.
On September 12 2011 14:52 Skyro wrote: After laddering with this opening a bunch I think the 2 things you have to watch out for that you didn't cover in the early to mid-game is baneling busts and quick tech switch to hydras in the mid-game.
2-base baneling busts will hit you right around when your zealots are trucking it over, so if you see way more lings in the early game than normal it's 99% chance he's going for a baneling bust. I usually throw down 2-3 more cannons and chrono out 1-2 sentries ASAP.
The hydra tech switch caught me off-guard a couple of times. The hydra den and hydras themselves pop out pretty fast and a lot of zergs I'm facing are doing this when they see the heavy immortal mid-game, so be sure to tech switch over to HT fairly quickly after you throw down your twilight council.
I agree with the baneling bust being something you have to watch out for, and I have been encountering it a couple of times... along with a lot of other varied all-ins such as 9pool pull all drones.....
However for the Hydras, I don't necessarily think you should just be going heavy-immortal for your mid-game, unless you see Roaches. By this time you should have your TC up and be researching chargelots with +2 wep +1 armor (assuming you're upgrading properly), will destroy Hydralisks.
I meant when they open roaches so I react by pumping immortals, and then zerg reacts to the heavy immortal composition with a quick-tech switch to hydras. Roach/hydra will melts zealot/immortal. That's why I said I usually go right into templar tech ASAP after I research charge, because the zerg player can switch tech and pump out a lot of hydras a lot quicker than you can react with storm, which is why I was caught off guard a couple of times.
I agree with the baneling busts being the major thing to watch out for when doing this build. If anyone has replays of them vs banelings I wouldn't mind seeing them.
Noumena you are seriously awesome... I am also a high master P playing at GM level and I can already tell this build is sick. I can't wait to try it tomorrow!
Updated the main post with a way to hold a Baneling bust. The way I knew it was coming was the excessive amount of lings that greeted my initial zealots, which is why I got the Observer to scout what he was doing before my Warp Prism. I am not sure if this Zerg just did it poorly and thats why I held or what, but anyways here is the replay if you don't want to search the OP:
-Do you still find you have time to get a third up before 2-base mutas hit, or do you just turtle up on 2-base and push out when you have a big enough army? It feels very uncomfortable attempting to grab your 3rd with mutas out, even if you know you dealt a good bit of damage with your harass. Sniping the spire seems more like "do it if you have the chance" rather than a solid strategy you can employ everytime you go up against mutas.
-Vs 2-base Roach do you still continue Warp Prism harass? You don't trade effectively with Roaches with just Zealots, though I imagine that abusing the ramp with Sentries is a definite possibility.
On September 21 2011 03:23 Skyro wrote: -Do you still find you have time to get a third up before 2-base mutas hit, or do you just turtle up on 2-base and push out when you have a big enough army? It feels very uncomfortable attempting to grab your 3rd with mutas out, even if you know you dealt a good bit of damage with your harass. Sniping the spire seems more like "do it if you have the chance" rather than a solid strategy you can employ everytime you go up against mutas.
-Vs 2-base Roach do you still continue Warp Prism harass? You don't trade effectively with Roaches with just Zealots, though I imagine that abusing the ramp with Sentries is a definite possibility.
Two Base Muta: I wouldn't say I necessarily turtle up, but I put "safe" pressure onto the Zerg. When I say safe, I never really put myself into a position where I must commit to the attack and have my army in danger of dying or losing significantly. Since you should be using Cannons to defend Mutalisk harassment, your army will be somewhat safe to move out to Zerg's base to snipe any 3rd, or stray overlords. This also helps the Mutas stay close to the main and lessens the harassment. Once I feel like I have done enough damage to defend a 3rd, while pressuring, I will take my 3rd.
2 Base Roach: I continue my Warp Prism harass once Charge kicks in, but I lessen the amount of Zealots I will be warping in via my Prisms. The idea behind this is to keep sufficient damage and the Zerg creating units/having to spend time in his base and gives the Protoss the opportunity to mass up an Immortal force/tech to Archons or whatever you may desire.
Peronsally, vs 2 base Roach play I like to get an observer out and keep it moving around the Zerg's base, look for when he decides he is going to move out, and then move my Warp Prism(s) back in to continue pressure, to yo-yo his army around.
How does 1.4 affect your play with this strategy and Zerg counters?
I have personally taken a few days off from playing because I am a) busy, and b) waiting to see how top-level zergs handle top-level sentry drops with the +60hp to prisms.
still using this and still loving it. having pretty good success with it at mid diamond level. gonna start trying to incorporate sentry drops into my strat. pressure the front, FF ramp and try and snipe tech rather than drones
I have been fairly busy lately, which means no time to play =/ I will try to upload more replays tonight for 1.4, hopefully. The new patch will only help this strategy essentially. +60 Shields to the Warp Prism, and +1 Range to Immortals (for when there are roaches). Only issue I can think of is the slower Blink research, which seems pretty miniscule to work around. Simply spread your stalkers out better and wait to move out until Blink is finished.
Glad to see everyone still loves the strat and it is working out for them.
Edit: Slight delay on the 1.4 Replays, forgot I am getting my wisdom teeth pulled tonight.
i have been trying similar stuff to this except doing 1 gate forge expo into stargate, then pushing around with void rays to harass 3rd while i make gates and a prism.
i'll have to try zealot pressure instead of void, will let me get prism and forge/twilight upgrades out much faster! solid write up.
the increased usage of warp prisms only adds to the complexity and skill level and understanding of PvZ matchup.
however people should not treat this as an end-all-be-all. its not a 'solution' its an additional aspect of play just like medivac drops in TvZ.
very patient zergs will be able to overcome this, but most will eventually crumble. zergs like darkforce and sheth are the ones who know how to combat this. they are also one of a kind.
very patient zergs will be able to overcome this, but most will eventually crumble. zergs like darkforce and sheth are the ones who know how to combat this. they are also one of a kind.
If they are "one of a kind" how are there two of them?
Thanks so much for this build! Been working wonders for me in diamond against the excess of Zergs on ladder. The only things I'm having trouble with are muta openers and baneling busts, but it's definitely not an insta-loss or anything. The scouting zealot spots any baneling attack, and if I chronoboost sentries and add cannons I think I can survive. The mutas pop out right about as my warp prism reaches his base if he's doing a 2-base muta rush, but one warp in of stalkers should fend off the initial 8-10 mutas. I'd be interested in a faster way to scout the spire, as my preferred method of countering mutas is phoenixes instead of blink stalkers. Sometimes if I rally the very first zealot to their main I can see if they're making a fast lair or not, but it depends on how many zerglings they make.
I do a modified version of the build where I mine with 2 gases at the start (quicker +1), and get a 3rd and 4th gas after Robo and Citadel and then get a DT shrine.
I then use my army, the Warp Prism + DTs to constantly harass, whilst at the same time, building up my Collosus count (or Stalkers if he goes air) and expanding. It's basically a free win when Zerg move their army half way across the map and you warp in 4 DTs into their main and there is nothing there to defend it.
very patient zergs will be able to overcome this, but most will eventually crumble. zergs like darkforce and sheth are the ones who know how to combat this. they are also one of a kind.
If they are "one of a kind" how are there two of them?
Anybody incorporating sentries during the initial warp prism harass? It seems to me that if your opponent is sticking on any type of 2-base play it is highly beneficial to immediately follow-up with sentries after your initial 3-5 zealot since:
1) Sentries can protect your main from ALL follow-up aggression 2) Sentries are allowed to build up energy and can be loaded up with the initial warp prism to continually FF the ramp b/w their main and natural (keep 1-2 sentries back at your base and cannon up for the eventual counterattack). Warp Prism harass with just zealots is not very effective vs a 2-base roach play but with sentries you can still do severe damage.
Also to the OP I see you almost always expand during your initial warp prism harass, but I've found that if they don't make roaches and rely on lings/spines for defense, I've found a lot of success just throwing down 6 more gates (8 total) and outright killing them. It appears to be very hard for zerg to defend +1/+1 mass zealots at that timing with just lings and crawlers.
You have to be very sharp with your timings however since if they are going for a ling defense early on and is on only 2 bases that means infestors or mutas and your warp prism will get to their base right around the time infestors or mutas would be popping and you need to hit them before their infestors build up too much energy or they get too many mutas. I find this preferrable than having to worry about a 2-base infestor timing or being forced to turtle up once mutas hit the field.
I've been using sentry drop's on any map with a ramp. If you drop some Sentries, close up the ramp and warp in some zealots, you can ABSOULUTELY wreck a base. If your timing is crisp, you can snipe a massive amount of tech and a base worth of drones. It's also fairly low risk anymore, with the Prism shield buff, it's a lot more likely you'll be able to get out of there with all of your sentries and prism barring a major control error.
On September 28 2011 02:01 EvilZergling wrote: With the 1.4 patch why would you even need to be innovative? With infestor nerf it's pretty much a free win for protoss in PvZ right now :'(
I agree, with this patch we're seeing zerg win rates plummeting. Some speculate that they are down as low as 50% versus Protoss.
I must say i have been practising this build and since then my PvZ success rate went through the roof. Zergs are so passive in the early fase of the game, and they think they can get away with maximum drones till the 9 minute mark, but this really puts them on the spot as they have to think what to do.
I'm no where near pro level ( only mid masters ) but this is a build that is NOT for anyone without decent multitasking, since you are constantly teching/upgrading/double harassing, and you need to keep your prisms alive as long as you can to keep the zerg at bay.
Also don't go with fancy units with your harass, i've fallen into the trap of sending in too much DT's to harass, trying to snipe spores, and then kill drones/tech/hatches, but the zealots will be WAY more cost effecient then DT's. Because if you spend too much on DT's your main army will be too small to fend off any huge timing attack from a zerg.
Oh i've been doing something similar but with sentries but this looks way better and way faster and way more adaptable. I will try it and give you my toughts. thxxx <3
Running this build in diamond, I've found that against a macro zerg that doesn't take much damage from the harassment, this puts you about even with Zerg economically and with a fairly solid mid-game. The early and constant zealot aggression prevents him from getting a drone lead (which used to be such a big downfall of forge fe and pvz in general). I really love it! The prisms also mean tons of constant scouting of his unit composition and bases, without the need for hallucination.
I've had better success against muta rushes lately too. I don't think it's a build order loss or anything that extreme; your initial warp prism gets there about when the mutas pop (at least when I do it; it's possible I'm not doing it the fastest), you lose the prism but it's also possible to snipe the spire if you're lucky. As soon as I spot the mutas I warp in stalkers and make cannons, which all finish in time to prevent any econ damage from the initial mutas. Then it's just blink and high templar, which is tech that's readily available since the council is already built. And if you keep doing prism harass, it keeps the mutas off your back for the cost of 200 minerals, and his lings won't be too effective at defending harassment by zealots.
My one question right now is this: if I scout roach infestor, do I continue to go for charge zealots in combination with immortals and HT/archons? Or do I instead go straight to blink/HT/Immortal? Chargelots are decent against roaches in small numbers, especially with the immortals backing them up, but when they begin massing roaches or with hydras behind it seems like the zealots lose a lot of effectiveness.
I opened with quick robot warprism while 6 gates or cannon rush to kill Zerg's quick third base. drop in the main and nonstop harass. You don't to commit to much in to it. Just 1-2 zealots at a time to kill drone or buying time. And then get your third. Double robot colossus is the best. And eventually move out and roll them.
On October 03 2011 04:20 wildstyle1337 wrote: zerg will have overlords around your base and will see incoming wapr prism
Genius. Absolutely brilliant...
OT: When scouting Roach/infestor, generally I will try to spread the Zerg army as thing as possible if it is still in the mid game (10-16minute range), because as stated, Zealot/HT/Archon/Immortal rips small groups of Roach/Infestor. However I eventually will switch into Blink Stalker/Colossus/Archon to battle the inevitable Brood Lords that are incoming.
Also , sorry for waaay late update on the new replays. I have 4 Patch 1.4 replays posted in the OP, forgive my sloppy play in the game vs ostoji
Edit: I added an Early Roach pressure replay with notes about my thoughts and decisions. Hopefully it is useful. GL!
Seems like you are really forcing it in some of those new replays, i.e. when they are on 2 base roach and make a lot of spines at both their bases. Also I'm not a fan of this opener on XNC for basically the reason you show, it sucks for the roachling all-in that is so popular there. It's nice that you came back and won but... that's because you outplayed your opponent and not because of the build.
On October 07 2011 14:46 Skyro wrote: Seems like you are really forcing it in some of those new replays, i.e. when they are on 2 base roach and make a lot of spines at both their bases. Also I'm not a fan of this opener on XNC for basically the reason you show, it sucks for the roachling all-in that is so popular there. It's nice that you came back and won but... that's because you outplayed your opponent and not because of the build.
To each his own on which maps you favor to use this opener , but I do agree that roachling all-ins are very popular on XNC. I am a bit confused though on what you mean by the last part of where I won because I outplayed my opponent and not because of the build. In no way do I intend for this build to be a BO win, but in some cases it just is simply that. Generally I like to think that most people win the majority of their games based on the fact that they played better than their opponent.
I'll be adding some more replays and hopefully they are a bit better, but as far as the build seeming forced, well it is. I join games with a mindset based on the map/player of what I want to do, and then carry that out with slight variations depending on scouting. The Warp Prism play continues no matter what, but I do not commit as much with it depending on the defenses. Warp Prism's in a certain sense contain the Zerg; they can't move out knowing you have a flying Pylon in their base ready to warp in units, and from this is where you gain your lead.
On September 28 2011 02:01 EvilZergling wrote: With the 1.4 patch why would you even need to be innovative? With infestor nerf it's pretty much a free win for protoss in PvZ right now :'(
Lol. Sarcasm? Whine? Drama for drama's sake? I find PvZ to be consistently fun and challenging with this strategy. Post-patch, I've seen a lot more muta and roach-hydra play so I'd say Zerg as adapting just fine.
As others have suggested, I, too, struggle with taking a third against muta--not 2-base muta so much as a Z who makes muta as he's taking a 3rd. I'll try pressuring their 3rd without overcommitting as Noumena suggested.
On October 07 2011 14:46 Skyro wrote: Seems like you are really forcing it in some of those new replays, i.e. when they are on 2 base roach and make a lot of spines at both their bases. Also I'm not a fan of this opener on XNC for basically the reason you show, it sucks for the roachling all-in that is so popular there. It's nice that you came back and won but... that's because you outplayed your opponent and not because of the build.
To each his own on which maps you favor to use this opener , but I do agree that roachling all-ins are very popular on XNC. I am a bit confused though on what you mean by the last part of where I won because I outplayed my opponent and not because of the build. In no way do I intend for this build to be a BO win, but in some cases it just is simply that. Generally I like to think that most people win the majority of their games based on the fact that they played better than their opponent.
I'll be adding some more replays and hopefully they are a bit better, but as far as the build seeming forced, well it is. I join games with a mindset based on the map/player of what I want to do, and then carry that out with slight variations depending on scouting. The Warp Prism play continues no matter what, but I do not commit as much with it depending on the defenses. Warp Prism's in a certain sense contain the Zerg; they can't move out knowing you have a flying Pylon in their base ready to warp in units, and from this is where you gain your lead.
I just mean you seem to force this build/strat to your detriment. The XNC is just an example where you take a lot of damage from the roach/ling all-in but you are able to come back because you outplayed him later on. XNC is a map where it is difficult to FFE and roachling all-in is popular which is pretty much a direct counter to this opener. The zealot opener IMO is most effective on maps where you can FFE very safely and your opponent is greedy and/or is relying only on lings for early defense.
I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game?
To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts.
On October 24 2011 16:05 bankai wrote: I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game?
To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts.
Advice??
What kind of newb does that O_o If you scouted it, you can throw down a stargate. I actually don't see too many zergs doing this as stargate shuts down 2 base roach all-in.
On October 24 2011 16:05 bankai wrote: I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game?
To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts.
Advice??
Get like 3 immortals and keep them behind your canons. Split up the incoming roaches with forcefield and watch them melt.
On October 12 2011 23:48 TylerThaCreator wrote: Just posting to let you know that this build is effective at 1400 masters
ROFL of course this build works at 1400 Masters. The guy that designed it is basically GM and he successfully dismantled ReignSlush on ladder with it And if you are not sure who that is, just check out the MLG Pro Circuit, his name is up there.
I like the warp prism harass as followup to a FFE but I dislike getting the early +1 and poking with zealots like that. If they happen to go blind roaches then such a zealot opening is really bad, and i'd rather have spend the early minerals on something more useful. The additional problem with just sending out zealots is that they have so much time to react and they're so slow, with the right amount of lings and some queen usage they can counter it really easily while losing less then you.
I myself just go quick warp prism and a few sentries while getting warpgates (4 or 5) and then send a warp prism with 1 zealot and 3 sentries. Sentries in the mineral line are really strong against lings and if they did go roach i haven't wasted too much on useless units, ie roaches. Not getting +1 so early makes it much easier to defend a unexpected roach push or transition to colo quickly if needed.
On October 24 2011 18:01 T.O.P. wrote: How is zerg supposed to kill a warp prism?
You can't unless you go spire or hydras, and even then if they get speed the only thing that can follow are mutas. The most effective counter to warp prism is just not let them drop, like in ZvT. I play with baneling drops in ZvP and can't spread many overlords around my bases to spot them incoming so I have a lot of trouble vs this play. Lategame dts and zealots wreck a base so fast it's disgusting.
On October 24 2011 18:01 T.O.P. wrote: How is zerg supposed to kill a warp prism?
You can't unless you go spire or hydras, and even then if they get speed the only thing that can follow are mutas. The most effective counter to warp prism is just not let them drop, like in ZvT. I play with baneling drops in ZvP and can't spread many overlords around my bases to spot them incoming so I have a lot of trouble vs this play. Lategame dts and zealots wreck a base so fast it's disgusting.
Warp Prism completely changes the metagame. It forces me to build some anti-air (muta, corrupter) where in the past I didn't need to. When I build air units, I can be so weak to timing attacks.
There's also a issue of protoss spreading your army apart. There's nothing you can do to stop a 10 zealot warp in from killing your hatchery unless you have a part of your army nearby. 4 Spines won't do anything. It lets protoss maneuver in ways that could put you in a lose lose situation.
Let's say he walks his main army out to your nat then flies a warp prism to your 3rd. Are you gonna put part of your army at the 3rd? If you are, then he'll just warp in next to his main army and crush you. If you don't, he'll warp in 10 zealots at your 3rd kill the hatch and just walk back home with the main army.
On October 24 2011 18:01 T.O.P. wrote: How is zerg supposed to kill a warp prism?
You can't unless you go spire or hydras, and even then if they get speed the only thing that can follow are mutas. The most effective counter to warp prism is just not let them drop, like in ZvT. I play with baneling drops in ZvP and can't spread many overlords around my bases to spot them incoming so I have a lot of trouble vs this play. Lategame dts and zealots wreck a base so fast it's disgusting.
Warp Prism completely changes the metagame. It forces me to build some anti-air (muta, corrupter) where in the past I didn't need to. When I build air units, I can be so weak to timing attacks.
There's also a issue of protoss spreading your army apart. There's nothing you can do to stop a 10 zealot warp in from killing your hatchery unless you have a part of your army nearby. 4 Spines won't do anything. It lets protoss maneuver in ways that could put you in a lose lose situation.
Let's say he walks his main army out to your nat then flies a warp prism to your 3rd. Are you gonna put part of your army at the 3rd? If you are, then he'll just warp in next to his main army and crush you. If you don't, he'll warp in 10 zealots at your 3rd kill the hatch and just walk back home with the main army.
As you said it has the potential to change the metagame, which is a good thing imo, maybe it will give protoss the small nudge in the right direction they need. It also gives some stupid strategies like the "warp 3 sentries in your main and you're going to loose everything in it and you can't do anything about it lololol", but maybe that will mean a zerg has to get some units earlier and thus the 3 hatch play vs FFE won't be as powerful as it is now. Wait & see, even if I hate playing against it I like that it's changing how the matchup can be played and opening more strategies. Where it's really scary as said before is the late game, where dts and zealots snipe your tech structures literally in seconds, could force zergs to get an extra roach warren or spire at other locations lategame.
On October 24 2011 16:05 bankai wrote: I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game?
To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts.
Advice??
Personally I'm not a fan of the zealot opening or FFE on XNC due to the open natural for this very reason. The usual means of defending out of a FFE is stalkers + sentries or void rays, neither of which is a viable option since you won't have enough gas (you're only going to have 1 geyser at this point). So your only option is just to make cannons, and due to the open natural it is hard to defend every point with adequately with cannons.
On October 24 2011 20:49 Markwerf wrote: I like the warp prism harass as followup to a FFE but I dislike getting the early +1 and poking with zealots like that. If they happen to go blind roaches then such a zealot opening is really bad, and i'd rather have spend the early minerals on something more useful. The additional problem with just sending out zealots is that they have so much time to react and they're so slow, with the right amount of lings and some queen usage they can counter it really easily while losing less then you.
I myself just go quick warp prism and a few sentries while getting warpgates (4 or 5) and then send a warp prism with 1 zealot and 3 sentries. Sentries in the mineral line are really strong against lings and if they did go roach i haven't wasted too much on useless units, ie roaches. Not getting +1 so early makes it much easier to defend a unexpected roach push or transition to colo quickly if needed.
The +1 Zealot push comes @ ~7mins, so as long as you scouted a FE from zerg he won't have roaches unless he is doing a roachling bust. So as long as you are active with your initial zealots and scout the roachling coming from across the map so you can get cannons up, you will actually be ahead due to all the drones he had to cut to get those early roaches.
Ofc if you are going for a sentry drop you can get that going faster if you get earlier gasses and skip the initial zealot pressure, so it's a trade-off. The zealot pressure is meant to keep the zerg honest out of a FFE so they don't go drone-crazy off a fast 3rd. The opening your choose also effects your mid and end game composition. When I go zealot opening I end up with zealot + Immortal + HT whereas if skip the zealot pressure for early gasses I go the traditional stalker + sentry + colossus.
I used this build a few times but my micro isn't good enough to execute perfectly.
I did however take your general concept of utilizing warp prisms as an extension of my mid-game harassment, even against terran. It completely solves the problem of protoss mobility by forcing overreactions.
I use zealot drops/warp in for different purposes too. Loading up 2-4 zealots and dropping them into a mineral line will do economy damage and cause your opponent to send a few units back. This is good for the first few drops because it can cause macro to slip. retreat with the warp prism full of any units you can grab and hide them in a corner.
Later in the game, I use this same prism in particularly effective tactic to deny the third. Have an obs at the potential third base with your army nearby (I put zealots at other close bases to deny them outright, the obs lets him build a third where I want). As soon as his third completes, I drop 2 zealots and 2 sentries into the mineral line, and FF the escape routes. I immediately warp in more zealots and begin targeting workers/tech/supply.
This second drop is different because it forces the opponent to send his entire army back usually and is guaranteed to do damage. If he only sends a few units u can warp in more to make the drop more threatening. As soon as he starts attacking your units in his base, retreat with the warp prism full of whatever u can save, and go kill his third with your army. Immediately retreat back to a favorable position and take a third.
As of now I think this is the only viable strategy I know to deny a third without risking your army too much.
On October 24 2011 16:05 bankai wrote: I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game?
To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts.
Advice??
Get like 3 immortals and keep them behind your canons. Split up the incoming roaches with forcefield and watch them melt.
Thanks but this sounds really hard to pump out 3 immortals by the 8-8:30min mark if you follow this build. Have you been able to do this before??
On October 24 2011 16:05 bankai wrote: I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game?
To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts.
Advice??
Personally I'm not a fan of the zealot opening or FFE on XNC due to the open natural for this very reason. The usual means of defending out of a FFE is stalkers + sentries or void rays, neither of which is a viable option since you won't have enough gas (you're only going to have 1 geyser at this point). So your only option is just to make cannons, and due to the open natural it is hard to defend every point with adequately with cannons.
Yeah I totally understand what you mean. It sorta feels like im forcing a strategy onto a map that doesnt work with it. However, as a low plat player, i follow the advice of "master 1 build per match up until masters" and opted with Forge FE. Also, generally I feel Forge FE is safer to secure expansions cos whenever I try 1 gate FE or 2 gate FE, it relies on good FF skill which is something I lack
On October 24 2011 20:49 Markwerf wrote: I like the warp prism harass as followup to a FFE but I dislike getting the early +1 and poking with zealots like that. If they happen to go blind roaches then such a zealot opening is really bad, and i'd rather have spend the early minerals on something more useful. The additional problem with just sending out zealots is that they have so much time to react and they're so slow, with the right amount of lings and some queen usage they can counter it really easily while losing less then you.
I myself just go quick warp prism and a few sentries while getting warpgates (4 or 5) and then send a warp prism with 1 zealot and 3 sentries. Sentries in the mineral line are really strong against lings and if they did go roach i haven't wasted too much on useless units, ie roaches. Not getting +1 so early makes it much easier to defend a unexpected roach push or transition to colo quickly if needed.
I was also thinking about this. Yes the zealots are important to scout, and they dont die as fast as probes, but then I maybe its better to go with a 1zealot/1probe scout (which is faster and should see the tech or early third if any), and then IF you scout the early third, go for more zealots to deny it, or if not, then just use those zealots with the warp prism for the mineral drop later.
Zealots take 35-50 seconds to walk from one natural to another and zerglings have 27s build time. 4 zealots should not be able to deny a third or do economic damage to a natural, specially when you notice 2 gateways instead of gateway+core. 2 gate should always make Zerg wary of the attack. The dual gate cronoboosted zealots delays the warp gate technology to about 9 minutes non-cronoboosted) so Zerg should be able to catch up in potential drones lost when making zerglings to defend the early attack.
I think it's a good build for protoss though. It's non-standard and puts on pressure earlier than the zergs expects so it could throw of his sense of timings. Even if the attack is effected, the zealots will still be cost effective due to +1 zealots effectiveness vs lings. Plus it reveals Z infrastructure and tech when protoss usually plays blind. I also like the warp prism follow-up.
Apologies if these have been answered before, I've read through a few pages of the thread. I'm a high diamond rank for reference, and loving this build. Few pretty easy questions for the pros of this build:
Is there any case where doing a FFE with this build would be safe enough to NOT fully wall-in? I find that walling in completely actually slows down my 3rd timing quite a bit, even if thats just personal issues. What would I look for to show me when I can afford a small gap in my wall (since there's going to be few zealots and sentries)?
Additionally, when should I be looking to take a third with this build? Assuming a relatively normal amount of damage that doesn't win the game outright, should my 3rd line up with something that I see out of MY tech (that leads to better aggression) or a response to something that I see out of him?
Lastly, lets say I see a quick third go down for him. How / where should I send my zealots in the initial attack? To his natural, to take advantage of his low defense, or to his third to essentially force a cancel? I can see both sides of this argument, and although I've traditionally just been sending them to his third to take it out, I can also see how leaving it alive allows for your warp prism harass to work even better (since his forces are forced to be spread even further apart).
On October 24 2011 16:05 bankai wrote: I have been doing this build lately and wondering, how do you react to mass roaches in early-mid game?
To be more specific, on XNC, im talking like 20 roaches at 8mins...the guy 2 based with only 18 drones and massed roached. I built like 5 cannons in my natural, had 3 sentries when he hit, but couldnt hold off that many roaches. I only knew the roaches were coming by about 7mins because according to this build, thats when the 3-4zealot pressure/scouting starts.
Advice??
Personally I'm not a fan of the zealot opening or FFE on XNC due to the open natural for this very reason. The usual means of defending out of a FFE is stalkers + sentries or void rays, neither of which is a viable option since you won't have enough gas (you're only going to have 1 geyser at this point). So your only option is just to make cannons, and due to the open natural it is hard to defend every point with adequately with cannons.
Yeah I totally understand what you mean. It sorta feels like im forcing a strategy onto a map that doesnt work with it. However, as a low plat player, i follow the advice of "master 1 build per match up until masters" and opted with Forge FE. Also, generally I feel Forge FE is safer to secure expansions cos whenever I try 1 gate FE or 2 gate FE, it relies on good FF skill which is something I lack
FFE should be the 2nd opening you learn, the first should be 3-Gate Sentry expand. Also learning how to FF properly is essential and IMO would be #1 on my list of things to improve if I felt it was lacking. Try grabbing a practice partner and tell him to roachling all-in you every game and try to defend out of a 3-gate expand with 1 cannon.
On October 25 2011 09:46 Zarent wrote: Apologies if these have been answered before, I've read through a few pages of the thread. I'm a high diamond rank for reference, and loving this build. Few pretty easy questions for the pros of this build:
Is there any case where doing a FFE with this build would be safe enough to NOT fully wall-in? I find that walling in completely actually slows down my 3rd timing quite a bit, even if thats just personal issues. What would I look for to show me when I can afford a small gap in my wall (since there's going to be few zealots and sentries)?
Additionally, when should I be looking to take a third with this build? Assuming a relatively normal amount of damage that doesn't win the game outright, should my 3rd line up with something that I see out of MY tech (that leads to better aggression) or a response to something that I see out of him?
Lastly, lets say I see a quick third go down for him. How / where should I send my zealots in the initial attack? To his natural, to take advantage of his low defense, or to his third to essentially force a cancel? I can see both sides of this argument, and although I've traditionally just been sending them to his third to take it out, I can also see how leaving it alive allows for your warp prism harass to work even better (since his forces are forced to be spread even further apart).
Thanks in advance!
-I personally prefer to wall-in but of course you can leave a 1 zealot gap if you want. I don't know how it would delay your 3rd as you can just destroy part of your wall when you are ready to expand.
-I personally time my 3rd based on the map, what I scout from the initial warp prism harass, and if zerg took a 3rd. Unfortunately there are just too many possibilities/variations at this point in the game so I don't know if I can give you a rule of thumb here, it's just experience/game sense.
-I use my initial probe scout to scout for an early 3rd. If my probe scout dies I send my first 1-3 zealots to check for the third. If I scout the third I always send my first batch of +1 zealots to his 3rd because it is harder to reinforce units to his 3rd. There's also a far less likely chance they have any spinecrawlers there since the hatchery should be freshly spawned if you hit @ 7mins.
Are people still using this build to much success, if so have you had to make any significant adaptations?
It's been steadily going downhill for me and zergs are defending it much better than before(both the intial zealot harass and the prism harass). I'm not sure if they're just used to dealing with it now or if I'm facing better players who can handle it without taking much damage. I usually run into two things, either mass roaches or fast mutas and either one is a pain to handle. The roaches are usually too many for me to handle back at home due to the smaller army from warping in zealots, I either lose my third or take big losses holding my natural wall. If they go fast mutas I can do some damage but they take out the prisms and then its hard to get a big enough army at home to hold the trend of mass mutas that has been bopping up. Most of the early gas is in robo, twilight, charge and upgrades so the stalker count is low and going for charge delays blink.
I've adapted to include a stargate with this build (Like what Hero did in MLG Providence)
If you can't do damage with your zealot attack, pull back and save them OR, if you feel you can sacrifice them and gain valuable info, run them into the main to scout tech. (This doesnt always work if the zerg is good and gets a surround on your zealots.)
If I can't get a decent scout, instead of rushing the robo, i'll get a stargate then chrono out a phoenix to scout/prep for mutas (because that's what owns me the most). If he's going muta, throw down a 2nd stargate and get more phoenix. If he's going roach/hydra, throw down the robo. Depending on how many roaches, get an immortal or 2. If not, get the warp prism and start your harass. It's good to 2 prong attack here. Then FF the ramp and take out either the main or the nat.
That's been working for me lately... Given, I'm low diamond right now so take this advice how you will
On November 22 2011 00:08 SethDrone wrote: Are people still using this build to much success, if so have you had to make any significant adaptations?
It's been steadily going downhill for me and zergs are defending it much better than before(both the intial zealot harass and the prism harass). I'm not sure if they're just used to dealing with it now or if I'm facing better players who can handle it without taking much damage. I usually run into two things, either mass roaches or fast mutas and either one is a pain to handle. The roaches are usually too many for me to handle back at home due to the smaller army from warping in zealots, I either lose my third or take big losses holding my natural wall. If they go fast mutas I can do some damage but they take out the prisms and then its hard to get a big enough army at home to hold the trend of mass mutas that has been bopping up. Most of the early gas is in robo, twilight, charge and upgrades so the stalker count is low and going for charge delays blink.
I still use a variation of this opening as my standard PvZ opening on maps I can wall-off and FFE (which is every current ladder map except XNC and metal IIRC). It still is very effective even vs my practice partners who know exactly what is coming, you just have to react properly yourself. The OP seems to tend to expand during the initial warp prism harass, however I prefer to throw down an additional 3 gates instead to have 7 gates backing my initial warp prism. The reason is simple, the surging popularity of mutas.
First off I think you should have a mental checklist in your head on what is possible during different periods of the game. If he they go for a fast 3rd hatch (e.g. ~5 mins), your initial zealot harass should hit them before roaches. If they had the balls to go fast 3rd into muta then you should basically have a BO win as they won't have enough defenses when your warp prisms hit.
Now if you're talking about 2-base muta, if your BO is tight (and it needs to be for this to work), you can hit them with your warp prism shortly after 9 mins depending on the map (your 7 gates should be transforming into warp-gate as your warp prism is trucking it over to their base) and you should be able to hit them before their first batch of mutas pop. Your zealots should be able to do significant amounts of damage as mutas take forever to kill +1 armor zealots. I like to focus down the hatch or spire in this scenario. This harass gives you time to cannon up your mineral lines and research blink once you confirm mutas (your twilight council should complete right around your first big warp-in at their base). At this point you're ahead so you can either expand or just 2-base push him if you think you can finish him off.
As for 2-base roaches, most zergs will get a later expand behind a strong roach army right around when your warp prism is hitting. In this case I like to go double warp prism and harass his main and 3rd at the same time. Do what harass you can, and when they wise-up and split their army to defend their bases, I then know it is safe to take my 3rd since they lose their ability to push me. In the case of roaches I get charge first instead of blink.
As for defending against roach pushes, you should be pumping non-stop immortals after your warp prisms once you scout roaches. Immortals + cannons + complete wall-off will stop any roach push dead in its tracks.
Also your initial zealot poke should give you a lot of insight on if they are going mutas. For example if you scout no 3rd base, only lings/crawlers as defense and/or both geyers are up at their natural you can pretty much assume mutas since infestorling has fallen out of popularity (and you pretty much have a build order win if they go infestorling anyway so you don't have to worry about it). Sometimes I even catch their spire building if I can sneak my initial zealots into their main.
Last point is that I get my twilight council + 2 gas right after my 7 gates because you're going to need the gas income for HT ASAP regardless if they go roach or muta.
On November 22 2011 00:08 SethDrone wrote: Are people still using this build to much success, if so have you had to make any significant adaptations?
It's been steadily going downhill for me and zergs are defending it much better than before(both the intial zealot harass and the prism harass). I'm not sure if they're just used to dealing with it now or if I'm facing better players who can handle it without taking much damage. I usually run into two things, either mass roaches or fast mutas and either one is a pain to handle. The roaches are usually too many for me to handle back at home due to the smaller army from warping in zealots, I either lose my third or take big losses holding my natural wall. If they go fast mutas I can do some damage but they take out the prisms and then its hard to get a big enough army at home to hold the trend of mass mutas that has been bopping up. Most of the early gas is in robo, twilight, charge and upgrades so the stalker count is low and going for charge delays blink.
I still use a variation of this opening as my standard PvZ opening on maps I can wall-off and FFE (which is every current ladder map except XNC and metal IIRC). It still is very effective even vs my practice partners who know exactly what is coming, you just have to react properly yourself. The OP seems to tend to expand during the initial warp prism harass, however I prefer to throw down an additional 3 gates instead to have 7 gates backing my initial warp prism. The reason is simple, the surging popularity of mutas.
First off I think you should have a mental checklist in your head on what is possible during different periods of the game. If he they go for a fast 3rd hatch (e.g. ~5 mins), your initial zealot harass should hit them before roaches. If they had the balls to go fast 3rd into muta then you should basically have a BO win as they won't have enough defenses when your warp prisms hit.
Now if you're talking about 2-base muta, if your BO is tight (and it needs to be for this to work), you can hit them with your warp prism shortly after 9 mins depending on the map (your 7 gates should be transforming into warp-gate as your warp prism is trucking it over to their base) and you should be able to hit them before their first batch of mutas pop. Your zealots should be able to do significant amounts of damage as mutas take forever to kill +1 armor zealots. I like to focus down the hatch or spire in this scenario. This harass gives you time to cannon up your mineral lines and research blink once you confirm mutas (your twilight council should complete right around your first big warp-in at their base). At this point you're ahead so you can either expand or just 2-base push him if you think you can finish him off.
As for 2-base roaches, most zergs will get a later expand behind a strong roach army right around when your warp prism is hitting. In this case I like to go double warp prism and harass his main and 3rd at the same time. Do what harass you can, and when they wise-up and split their army to defend their bases, I then know it is safe to take my 3rd since they lose their ability to push me. In the case of roaches I get charge first instead of blink.
As for defending against roach pushes, you should be pumping non-stop immortals after your warp prisms once you scout roaches. Immortals + cannons + complete wall-off will stop any roach push dead in its tracks.
Also your initial zealot poke should give you a lot of insight on if they are going mutas. For example if you scout no 3rd base, only lings/crawlers as defense and/or both geyers are up at their natural you can pretty much assume mutas since infestorling has fallen out of popularity (and you pretty much have a build order win if they go infestorling anyway so you don't have to worry about it). Sometimes I even catch their spire building if I can sneak my initial zealots into their main.
Last point is that I get my twilight council + 2 gas right after my 7 gates because you're going to need the gas income for HT ASAP regardless if they go roach or muta.
edit: oh mid-masters player here btw
Could you post some recent replays of muta and 7gate? Having trouble securing a third and not sure when exactly to move out.
So basically this is a fancy +1 delayed 2gate attack->4gate w/ warp prism->expand->deathball? A few complaints...first, if I poke up the ramp and see your second gateway, I'm going to go for a roach/ling attack because you won't have the sentry count to deny it. Assuming you fully wall-in and make enough cannons to defend it, I'm going to suspect *something* and sac an overlord. This seems very frail. I do like warp prism harass, because it can be very hard to deal with, but I don't think a delayed 2gate is the right way to buy time for this. Why not traditional FFE straight into 6gate +1 (or greater) warp prism harass->expand? If he takes a third, you'll be able to do still more damage with the harassment, and he'll be less likely to be able to deny your expansion.
On November 22 2011 04:00 bigbros2 wrote: Could you post some recent replays of muta and 7gate? Having trouble securing a third and not sure when exactly to move out.
If you're talking about 2-base fast muta, I almost always 2-base push a fast muta player because I know I can usually win outright since most likely I did a lot of damage with my initial warp prism. I may have some replays of me getting a 3rd vs someone who went 2 or 3 base roach into muta though if that's what you're talking about (which is also becoming very popular in ladder lately).
On November 22 2011 04:19 CreativeAlias wrote: So basically this is a fancy +1 delayed 2gate attack->4gate w/ warp prism->expand->deathball? A few complaints...first, if I poke up the ramp and see your second gateway, I'm going to go for a roach/ling attack because you won't have the sentry count to deny it. Assuming you fully wall-in and make enough cannons to defend it, I'm going to suspect *something* and sac an overlord. This seems very frail. I do like warp prism harass, because it can be very hard to deal with, but I don't think a delayed 2gate is the right way to buy time for this. Why not traditional FFE straight into 6gate +1 (or greater) warp prism harass->expand? If he takes a third, you'll be able to do still more damage with the harassment, and he'll be less likely to be able to deny your expansion.
EDIT: Just realized how old this is >.<
Any protoss player doing this opener is fully aware this is completely scoutable. The fact that it is still incredibly effective even though it is easily scoutable actually is a testament to its strength.
As for roachling push I am comfortable enough with the opening now that I want zerg to roachling all-in me. My initial zealots give me the map control I need to scout it and build cannons in time to fend it off. It doesn't matter if you scout what I'm doing at that point as you're already very far behind economically.
Also the 2-gate pressure doesn't necessarily delay anything. I've seen some variations who do delay their core to get more early zealots, but personally I still get core after my first gate is done and robo right after core. There is really no delay in my warp prism compared to any other FFE. What I don't get is early sentries, which allows me to tech with only 1 gas.
Also a "traditional" 6-gate has pretty much been figured out to a science. Trying to grab a warp prism with that would only delay it and make it worse. The "new" 6-gate (well it's 7-gate actually) is the +2 blink stalker push which hits a bit later but with a vastly stronger army.
On November 22 2011 04:19 CreativeAlias wrote: So basically this is a fancy +1 delayed 2gate attack->4gate w/ warp prism->expand->deathball? A few complaints...first, if I poke up the ramp and see your second gateway, I'm going to go for a roach/ling attack because you won't have the sentry count to deny it. Assuming you fully wall-in and make enough cannons to defend it, I'm going to suspect *something* and sac an overlord. This seems very frail. I do like warp prism harass, because it can be very hard to deal with, but I don't think a delayed 2gate is the right way to buy time for this. Why not traditional FFE straight into 6gate +1 (or greater) warp prism harass->expand? If he takes a third, you'll be able to do still more damage with the harassment, and he'll be less likely to be able to deny your expansion.
EDIT: Just realized how old this is >.<
Any protoss player doing this opener is fully aware this is completely scoutable. The fact that it is still incredibly effective even though it is easily scoutable actually is a testament to its strength.
As for roachling push I am comfortable enough with the opening now that I want zerg to roachling all-in me. My initial zealots give me the map control I need to scout it and build cannons in time to fend it off. It doesn't matter if you scout what I'm doing at that point as you're already very far behind economically.
Also the 2-gate pressure doesn't necessarily delay anything. I've seen some variations who do delay their core to get more early zealots, but personally I still get core after my first gate is done and robo right after core. There is really no delay in my warp prism compared to any other FFE. What I don't get is early sentries, which allows me to tech with only 1 gas.
Also a "traditional" 6-gate has pretty much been figured out to a science. Trying to grab a warp prism with that would only delay it and make it worse. The "new" 6-gate (well it's 7-gate actually) is the +2 blink stalker push which hits a bit later but with a vastly stronger army.
This was directed towards the OP (hence the "oh...this is old" edit). See, you are doing a different opener than the OP lays out, so the roach/ling all-in won't be scary for you. Against a delayed 2gate attack, it's often a painful loss.
I wasn't clear enough there, sorry. Let me try "why not open traditional FFE, then get 6 gates (rather than 4) and use them (and warp prisms) to harass/buy time for your third (I'm assuming you won't do constant warp-ins since you will be moving the warp prism(s) around like nuts and you really just want to scare him, but you could need the extra production to defend against an all-in)?" What I'm trying to get at is, rather than 2base all-inning and expanding behind it, it might be good to go for more warpgates for more harassment to buy time for an expansion, because 3base Protoss is of course far stronger than 2base Protoss, and on maps where FFE is viable/common, it's pretty easy to take a 3rd/4th (to keep you on 3 mining bases). I'm not saying "do a 6gate all-in with a warp prism." I apologize for the vagueness.
On November 22 2011 04:54 SethDrone wrote: Skyro, do you have some replays of hitting them at 9 mins with your prism? I'd like to see how that plays out.
My robo is slightly late but you get the idea. In this particular game I went in with a few zealots before +1 was done because I saw an opportunity, but usually I wait for 5 zealots and +1 before I engage. This game also doesn't really show the harass potential of prisms because the zerg grabbed his 3rd really late. You can at least see the relative worker counts, timings but the timings could definitely be tighter. When I practice on the comp I can get 5 zealots @ my enemy's base with +1 done @ 7 mins, and warp prism warping in 7 zealots in their base @ 9 mins but in a real game it'll probably be slightly later than those timings.
I'm glad to see this thread is still kicking ass :D Awesome build. Mutas are terrible at the moment, and I hope they get a speed or damage nerf, or even a cost nerf, because they're way too cheap and way too powerful and way too easy to mass and way too hard to defend.
i've been using the sentry drop with warp prism warping in zealots at the main. usually wins me the game or at least gets me far away since they will have 1-2 bases with no lair which allows you to tech dt if you really want which is nice. Many transitional courses from there!
When doing a FFE like this, do people generally favor a complete wall off on maps that it is possible on, or is a wall off covering the ramp sufficient? I've been doing similar builds to the one in the OP lately, but have been struggling against 8-9min roach/ling aggression, and I wonder if this is because I don't do a full wall off.
On November 23 2011 20:22 ppterodactyl wrote: When doing a FFE like this, do people generally favor a complete wall off on maps that it is possible on, or is a wall off covering the ramp sufficient? I've been doing similar builds to the one in the OP lately, but have been struggling against 8-9min roach/ling aggression, and I wonder if this is because I don't do a full wall off.
It is highly recommended you only do this particular opening on maps where you can wall-off. You're using all your gas for upgrades and tech early on so you won't have much to spare for stalkers or sentries, and it is simply too hard to defend roachling aggression with only zealots w/o spamming a crazy amount of cannons.
On November 22 2011 04:19 CreativeAlias wrote: So basically this is a fancy +1 delayed 2gate attack->4gate w/ warp prism->expand->deathball? A few complaints...first, if I poke up the ramp and see your second gateway, I'm going to go for a roach/ling attack because you won't have the sentry count to deny it. Assuming you fully wall-in and make enough cannons to defend it, I'm going to suspect *something* and sac an overlord. This seems very frail. I do like warp prism harass, because it can be very hard to deal with, but I don't think a delayed 2gate is the right way to buy time for this. Why not traditional FFE straight into 6gate +1 (or greater) warp prism harass->expand? If he takes a third, you'll be able to do still more damage with the harassment, and he'll be less likely to be able to deny your expansion.
EDIT: Just realized how old this is >.<
Any protoss player doing this opener is fully aware this is completely scoutable. The fact that it is still incredibly effective even though it is easily scoutable actually is a testament to its strength.
As for roachling push I am comfortable enough with the opening now that I want zerg to roachling all-in me. My initial zealots give me the map control I need to scout it and build cannons in time to fend it off. It doesn't matter if you scout what I'm doing at that point as you're already very far behind economically.
Also the 2-gate pressure doesn't necessarily delay anything. I've seen some variations who do delay their core to get more early zealots, but personally I still get core after my first gate is done and robo right after core. There is really no delay in my warp prism compared to any other FFE. What I don't get is early sentries, which allows me to tech with only 1 gas.
Also a "traditional" 6-gate has pretty much been figured out to a science. Trying to grab a warp prism with that would only delay it and make it worse. The "new" 6-gate (well it's 7-gate actually) is the +2 blink stalker push which hits a bit later but with a vastly stronger army.
This was directed towards the OP (hence the "oh...this is old" edit). See, you are doing a different opener than the OP lays out, so the roach/ling all-in won't be scary for you. Against a delayed 2gate attack, it's often a painful loss.
I wasn't clear enough there, sorry. Let me try "why not open traditional FFE, then get 6 gates (rather than 4) and use them (and warp prisms) to harass/buy time for your third (I'm assuming you won't do constant warp-ins since you will be moving the warp prism(s) around like nuts and you really just want to scare him, but you could need the extra production to defend against an all-in)?" What I'm trying to get at is, rather than 2base all-inning and expanding behind it, it might be good to go for more warpgates for more harassment to buy time for an expansion, because 3base Protoss is of course far stronger than 2base Protoss, and on maps where FFE is viable/common, it's pretty easy to take a 3rd/4th (to keep you on 3 mining bases). I'm not saying "do a 6gate all-in with a warp prism." I apologize for the vagueness.
The age of my post/build does not necessarily mean it is no longer effective. I have just been busy with real life hince the lack of replies from me and or even playtime in SC2.
Ironically, while trying to clear up your previous statement you have lost me even more. Yes, you can simplify my opening down to a "fancy 2gate attack," but I am curious to where the idea of a 2base all-in comes from. I am positive there is a replay somewhere that shows how I handle the opening, and as Skyro has stated, I like to take a 3rd while doing the Warp Prism harass. In those replays, you will also notice I don't just stay on 4 Warp Gates the entire game, or really even transition into a "death ball." Pretty sure I have expressed my dislike towards deathballs and the concept behind them.
However, for your argument that the "fancy 2gate attack" is countered by roach-ling all-ins, I disagree. I love it when I am roach/ling all-in'd, because it simply means an easy win. With my Zealots early on before the push happens, I am scouting with a probe and my initial Zealots, trying to take control of the Xel'Nagas and do any other scouting I can. The moment I see an early batch of Roaches, or an absurd amount of speedlings, I know to build more cannons. By the time their attack hits, my cybercore should be close to finishing meaning I can build a Stalker to fend off the push even harder. Honestly, the only roach/ling all-in that I felt I have lost decisively was vs. LiquidRet.
I always have a problem getting out a warpprism and starting the harass without feeling very weak and spread out. Whether I use this build or a different one, if I want to use a prism on 2 bases I always feel vulnerable to a counter attack. Getting a 3rd up is very hard, you have to warp in at home ,which means your harass is a lot weaker, if you warp in for harassment, your third might die to a counter.
How do you deal with that? I'm not very experienced with warp prism play, but I want to improve my multitasking and start using it now that my other mechanics are decent enough =)
On December 01 2011 19:00 Darkomicron wrote: I always have a problem getting out a warpprism and starting the harass without feeling very weak and spread out. Whether I use this build or a different one, if I want to use a prism on 2 bases I always feel vulnerable to a counter attack. Getting a 3rd up is very hard, you have to warp in at home ,which means your harass is a lot weaker, if you warp in for harassment, your third might die to a counter.
How do you deal with that? I'm not very experienced with warp prism play, but I want to improve my multitasking and start using it now that my other mechanics are decent enough =)
I share your fear, except in PvT. I know this may sound lame, but it is especially true in this case, "a strong offense is the best defense." If you are able to effectively macro while you are harassing with your Warp Prism(s), then you should be in an amazing position. To specifically answer your question, I react to my opponent. With any type of harassment, you walk a fine line which decides whether you over commit and he just counters you, or you effectively deal damage and slowly pull ahead. I honestly can't think of such a thing as "safe harassment."
However, there are a few key things you will want to look for while you are harassing. Ask yourself these questions:
- Does he have Roaches? Yes. Build immortals. No? Suspect Mutas or Infestors
- Do I see a Spire? Yes. Cannon Up, research blink, warp in ONLY Stalkers at the main base.
- Is my harass being effectively "shut down?" If so, pause harassment briefly and start to macro in your main base/scout the map/prepare to take a 3rd.
For that last question, I want to emphasize on the idea of "prepare to take a 3rd." Scout out if he has any overlords spewing down creep, or lings blocking your pathway. Build a pylon with 1-2 Cannons, and when you feel completely safe, then take your third.
Noumena I love this! Some advice for me please: I took what you said and did some variation I think that sacrifices cb on probes (doesn't cut them though and it's still a normal FFE) to get +1 and 4 zeals pretty fast (I burn like 5 cbs on the attack upgrade) but only off of 1 gate (If I scout no third or roaches the rest doesn't apply).
I take the towers with initial zealots and push the third when I have 4, which the last one completes before the +1 is done. When I push with the zeals I have my warpgate working and I place a twilight council early, while probing. I add a 3rd gas and get a shrine as soon as TC is done and then a few sentries with the goal to have 2 DT when shrine is done. My thought process is to use mineral only units to harass third because the strength of +1 attack and just a few zealots is pretty underrated; it literally forces a ton of lings which is a huge depletion of larva (victory for Protoss since the fast third requires saturation to make it pay off in a decent amount of time), or it forces roaches which take a toll on the speed in which Zerg can get muta.
The DT then hit the third since the zealots typically don't kill it, and are able to either snipe about 8 drones and/or the hatch, but also to allow me to take my 3rd relatively quickly and without fear of reprisal in most cases. In the limited time they are there, the +1 works in my favor to allow me to use 1 less attack to kill roaches who are waiting on the overseer. After this it's pretty general, get robo, then blink, then storm, while getting more bases and upgrades. I'm not a good player by any means, so can you comment on this thought process?
When constructing this plan, I was thinking on how to hit Zerg in different ways, and this does an upgrade advantage timing at the 6:30 mark, then a detection requirement at around 8:30, and then a tech advantage right after that (the archon plus sentry zeal), and then a macro advantage with the 3rd base and TC/Robotech. Would you be so kind as to comment on that? I need guidance :p
"Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive.
On December 02 2011 08:15 Jackal888 wrote: "Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive.
1) You should realize that you get a pretty good indication if they are going 2-base muta with your early zealot pressure (e.g. you see no 3rd, both gasses taken at natural, only lings and/or spines as defense). I always throw down 5 more gates (for a total of 7) timed as my warpgate tech finishes instead of grabbing a 3rd like the OP, so you can easily adjust your build if you suspect mutas and be warping in mass zealots in his base before his mutas spawn and usually can cripple them enough to end the game shortly afterwards. It takes quite a while for mutas to kill a pack of +1 armor zealots and I can usually kill their spire and lair before he can clean my zealots up. 2-base muta is not what I would call a safe or standard build for zerg so I don't know why you are seeing it so much on ladder. Early 3-base play is a lot more common from my experiences (low to mid master).
2) You are somewhat correct here. Mutas definitely deter drops, but they don't completely shut it down. It's like saying mutas shut down drops in ZvT, which obviously they do not. DTs are awesome late-game PvT, though I'm not a fan of them as any sort of reliable counter of anything. They basically bank on you catching your opponent off-guard in some fashion. It's an "icing-on-the-cake" unit, not a core unit IMO.
On December 02 2011 08:15 Jackal888 wrote: "Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive.
1) You should realize that you get a pretty good indication if they are going 2-base muta with your early zealot pressure (e.g. you see no 3rd, both gasses taken at natural, only lings and/or spines as defense). I always throw down 5 more gates (for a total of 7) timed as my warpgate tech finishes instead of grabbing a 3rd like the OP, so you can easily adjust your build if you suspect mutas and be warping in mass zealots in his base before his mutas spawn and usually can cripple them enough to end the game shortly afterwards. It takes quite a while for mutas to kill a pack of +1 armor zealots and I can usually kill their spire and lair before he can clean my zealots up. 2-base muta is not what I would call a safe or standard build for zerg so I don't know why you are seeing it so much on ladder. Early 3-base play is a lot more common from my experiences (low to mid master).
2) You are somewhat correct here. Mutas definitely deter drops, but they don't completely shut it down. It's like saying mutas shut down drops in ZvT, which obviously they do not. DTs are awesome late-game PvT, though I'm not a fan of them as any sort of reliable counter of anything. They basically bank on you catching your opponent off-guard in some fashion. It's an "icing-on-the-cake" unit, not a core unit IMO.
Your responses are well thought out and thanks for the clarification. I am still seeing a lot of 2 base muta play form zergs on NA & SEA ladder (i'm mid Master on both) - The logic being.... sacrifice econ early to tech to mutas and one this is achieved safely... harass and take map control off the Protoss. They make up for the forgone econ during the mid / late game as they double and triple expand as part of the process.
The toss is often left with 2 options:
1) All in and kill the Zerg before his muta flock is big enough to cause excessive damage and before he has his spine crawler wall established.
2) Play a macro game against the Zerg and try and harass back and limit the Zerg's ability to get 100 drones and then tip half of them into spines during the late game.
Personally I have been trying to do the 2nd option against Zergs and find it increasingly difficult to pull it off with Warp prism use. Against almost all builds apart from Muta's... the warp prism is an awesome unit. Ones mutas are out... it becomes very ineffective and not cost efficient... especially if you are trapped on 2 base. For Terran's its different dropping stimmed marines as they are so cost effective against Mutas that loosing the investment of 8 marines and a medivac is worth killing 4, 5 or 6 mutas and keeping the flock to a reasonable number.
I have been doing big stargate plays and forcing the zerg away from mutas with superior pheonix play. The usual follow up to this is Roach Hydra and late game Infestor / Broodlord..... although I did meet one guy who raped me with Ultras late game as his transition.
On December 02 2011 08:15 Jackal888 wrote: "Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive.
1) You should realize that you get a pretty good indication if they are going 2-base muta with your early zealot pressure (e.g. you see no 3rd, both gasses taken at natural, only lings and/or spines as defense). I always throw down 5 more gates (for a total of 7) timed as my warpgate tech finishes instead of grabbing a 3rd like the OP, so you can easily adjust your build if you suspect mutas and be warping in mass zealots in his base before his mutas spawn and usually can cripple them enough to end the game shortly afterwards. It takes quite a while for mutas to kill a pack of +1 armor zealots and I can usually kill their spire and lair before he can clean my zealots up. 2-base muta is not what I would call a safe or standard build for zerg so I don't know why you are seeing it so much on ladder. Early 3-base play is a lot more common from my experiences (low to mid master).
2) You are somewhat correct here. Mutas definitely deter drops, but they don't completely shut it down. It's like saying mutas shut down drops in ZvT, which obviously they do not. DTs are awesome late-game PvT, though I'm not a fan of them as any sort of reliable counter of anything. They basically bank on you catching your opponent off-guard in some fashion. It's an "icing-on-the-cake" unit, not a core unit IMO.
Your responses are well thought out and thanks for the clarification. I am still seeing a lot of 2 base muta play form zergs on NA & SEA ladder (i'm mid Master on both) - The logic being.... sacrifice econ early to tech to mutas and one this is achieved safely... harass and take map control off the Protoss. They make up for the forgone econ during the mid / late game as they double and triple expand as part of the process.
The toss is often left with 2 options:
1) All in and kill the Zerg before his muta flock is big enough to cause excessive damage and before he has his spine crawler wall established.
2) Play a macro game against the Zerg and try and harass back and limit the Zerg's ability to get 100 drones and then tip half of them into spines during the late game.
Personally I have been trying to do the 2nd option against Zergs and find it increasingly difficult to pull it off with Warp prism use. Against almost all builds apart from Muta's... the warp prism is an awesome unit. Ones mutas are out... it becomes very ineffective and not cost efficient... especially if you are trapped on 2 base. For Terran's its different dropping stimmed marines as they are so cost effective against Mutas that loosing the investment of 8 marines and a medivac is worth killing 4, 5 or 6 mutas and keeping the flock to a reasonable number.
I have been doing big stargate plays and forcing the zerg away from mutas with superior pheonix play. The usual follow up to this is Roach Hydra and late game Infestor / Broodlord..... although I did meet one guy who raped me with Ultras late game as his transition.
My point about 2-base muta play not being safe for zerg is you can do a 2-base timing and just outright win the game. The only scenarios a zerg can defend a 2-base push is either with roaches or mass spinecrawlers on maps where there is a choke at the natural. Roaches will delay mutas, and spinecrawlers can be circumvented with a single warp prism. If you let a zerg get away with 2-base muta just realize that you let them get away with what I like to call "greedy tech" build. In my experiences, going 2 or 3-base roach into mutas is a lot more common nowadays than a 2-base straight tech to mutas.
You make good points about the warp prism/medivac comparisons. The advantages of the warp prism though is that you don't have to load it with units and it is still a threat, as well as having access to a speed upgrade. Also even when the muta ball gets very large, you can load 1 or 2 HT in your prism and if they engage you you can storm his mutas which is not a good trade for zerg. I do agree with your point that if you did in fact let them get mutas off 2-base that warp prism harass is not worth it in that scenario (since you have neither prism speed nor HTs at that point) and should be either be trying to secure your 3rd or gearing up for an all-in, and IMO in neither case should your standard strat be DTs (trust me I've tried it and while I did get some wins I got some losses too where the zerg simply reacted properly). However I would just reiterate that you shouldn't be letting them get 2-base mutas up safely with this build if you react properly and your timings are tight.
I've also been revisiting the whole phoenix vs muta dynamic too, due to the recent popularity of roach -> muta. If the zerg went roaches to stop my warp prism harass I then grab my 3rd and the game settles into a macro game, and this is around the time when I get double stargates. This hedges your armies weakness against both mutas and broodlords. I it's popular opinion around these parts that phoenixes don't work vs mutas, but the delayed mutas due to going roaches first gives you enough time to get the infrastructure up for phoenixes (I always grab blink right after charge using this build so that also buys you time to get your phoenix army going).
On December 02 2011 08:15 Jackal888 wrote: "Generally Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base Mutalisk play, but it is a possibility. This may be a bit tough to deal with, but you should continue to get out the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons instead of Zealots. Try your best to snipe the Spire. Add Cannons into your mineral line as you see fit. Page 2 in the comments gives more of an in-depth discussion on the timings and handling the Mutalisks."
I do not agree with this at all:
1) "Zerg's will try and steer away from 2 base muta play"... WRONG - I have been meeting that almost exclusively on ladder. They go fast muta and then secure base 3 & 4 at the same time. Then they proceed to take the whole map and any gold bases they can get their hands on.
2) "Continue with the warp prism despite him having muta map control". Dumb. Zergs will snipe the prism full of units due to the speed of the mutas and overlord map vision. The viable answer to harass a zerg is DT once twilight council tech has been established. Hide them around the map for vision and harass zerg expo's. The amount of gas spent on DT's needs to be limited as your are off 2 base and trying to get HT / blink stalker tech up also. I only even get 4 or 5 DT's and do my best to keep them alive.
I'm not really sure why you're taking what I say out of context, and then saying it is "dumb" and "wrong." Nonetheless, I will gladly respond.
1) Builds on the ladder vary so much that it is hard to really gauge when a certain style/build is rare, or very popular. You may face 4gate every single game one day, and the next 3 Gate expand. When I say "Zerg's will try to steer away from 2 base muta play," I am thinking in a broad sense. If you find a Zerg who does go that route, because it is so unsafe and susceptible to a 2 base timing by the Protoss, then you can assume that they had the idea of winning with this strategy out right. With that in mind, I like to think that 2 base Mutalisk is uncommon, just like any other strategy with the same intentions.
2) If you are going to quote me, at least quote me properly. I said "you should continue to get the Warp Prism, but switch into Blink Stalkers/Archons." What I am implying here is that if you are facing Mutalisk play, then there will be a ball of Mutalisks. How can a Zerg have "muta map control," harass your mineral line/third, and be able to deal with Blink Stalkers/Archons? You simply can't with a "ball." This is also why I suggest multiple Warp Prisms to do multi-pronged attacks which again, the Zerg will not be able to hold with a ball of Mutas. If the harass is effective and well executed, then something important should and will die.
As far as your DT argument goes, I strongly disagree on the "viable answer to harass a zerg is DT." Gas is extremely valuable to the Protoss army. I would not want to "maybe" kill something for 125 gas, rather than "most likely" kill something for pure minerals. Also, I heard Phoenixes were pretty good at harassing as well.
Great read and a great guide. Very well done! I love the versatility and aggression of this build. This allows me to react to anything the zerg can throw at me as well as stay ahead economically. I've been struggling a lot with PvZ lately, but haven't dropped a game to zerg in the past few days. This is my go-to build and I can vouch for its effectiveness.
Sorry for my absence, other priorities have gotten in the way. I'll be adding more replays as they come and I will even throw in a couple of me losing with this build, as it does happen, rarely
On April 05 2012 10:16 Noumena wrote: Updated the OP severely.
Sorry for my absence, other priorities have gotten in the way. I'll be adding more replays as they come and I will even throw in a couple of me losing with this build, as it does happen, rarely
Thanks! I've been doing variations on your build for months.
Warp Prism PvZ is what allows me to win. Get a DT shrine and just got for hatches its amazing how many games you win without an Army vs Army fight. Seriously Warp Prism is so amazing
@skatbone - That's awesome to hear man, hope it continues to work out.
@YourGoodFriend You can also do the same with Zealots + Sentires in a Zerg's main :D I believe in one of my replays I did just that, and then went and sniped his 3rd, then came back to snipe the Roach Warren lol. Flying Pylon carriers ftw.
I've used a tweaked version of your build to great effect for a few months but then started doing the gate-nexus expand above. You can actually hit a much stronger zealot timing with that opening as you can move out with 4 Zealots (all made from your initial gate) from your base @ 6mins but you have the ability to reinforce with warp gate tech being done (lined up with your +1 weapons) ~7:20 or so, so you can essentially hit with 7 zealots at the same timing with this opening, compared to 4 or 5 with no ability to reinforce. It's also not such dead giveaway since you don't make 2 early gates (once my practice partners saw that opening once, they never fell for it again, though it worked on ladder). It's similar in concept staying on 1 gas for a while to afford zealots to pressure with. I highly recommend it as IMO it is the perfect fit for your style (though it can transition into anything really).
I've heard of the YufFE, but I've never had the chance to try it.. It just seems very paper thin in the sense of if you don't scout X in his base then you lose. However I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. Perhaps his opening followed by the rest of my BO would be most optimal? I'll have to try that out sometime.
I'd definitely say YufFE and my opening has similar qualities but different advantages and disadvantages. Obviously, as you said, the 2 gates right off the bat is a dead giveaway for pressure which is both a pro and con since you're essentially forcing units out of the Zerg just by making a 2nd gateway faster than normal.
I'm interested in what the probe count is at 7 minutes for Build A and B for the YufFE, and when +1 finishes. Do you perhaps know a rough estimate on the top of your head?
On April 05 2012 16:40 Noumena wrote: I've heard of the YufFE, but I've never had the chance to try it.. It just seems very paper thin in the sense of if you don't scout X in his base then you lose. However I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. Perhaps his opening followed by the rest of my BO would be most optimal? I'll have to try that out sometime.
I'd definitely say YufFE and my opening has similar qualities but different advantages and disadvantages. Obviously, as you said, the 2 gates right off the bat is a dead giveaway for pressure which is both a pro and con since you're essentially forcing units out of the Zerg just by making a 2nd gateway faster than normal.
I'm interested in what the probe count is at 7 minutes for Build A and B for the YufFE, and when +1 finishes. Do you perhaps know a rough estimate on the top of your head?
Yes I had concerns about the safety of YufFE but so far it seems incredible solid as long as you scout correctly and adjust the build accordingly (along with proper sim city of course, which makes YufFE's opening not viable on certain maps where the ramp is far away from your natural nexus). Like I said I've played a slightly tweaked version of your build for months and now do the YufFE opening and although I don't follow it up with your build anymore I know from using the 2 builds that you can hit all the same timings from your build out of a FFE with the main difference being that your initial zealot push is a lot stronger.
In terms of worker count, YufFE's opening varies a lot based on what you scout, but if zerg opens 14 or later pool with hatch before gas then your worker count is identical to a forge first FFE since you don't cut probes except to get your nexus down at 17, which is exactly when a forge first nexus would go down. Currently I'm mixing it up between using this build (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315275) and faking the initial zealot pressure into a 6:45 3rd Nexus.
@Skyro - Awesome, thanks. I'll have to try both of those out since it never hurts to have multiple openings/tricks. Especially since I've been playing more seriously.
On April 05 2012 17:16 silentdecay01 wrote: This build is very out of date and very easy to destroy as a zerg player. Kinda of a necro post.
Great. Thank you for this riveting contribution to the discussion. Anyways, I don't necessarily see how this build is out-of-date when there are multiple similar builds springing up with a similar style, which is why I decided to update mine slightly to keep up with the current trends.. If any Z or P has really any decent argument on why this build is bad or is easy to destroy then please don't hide it..
I don't expect this to be the end all of PvZ strategy.. just to add some insight on the MU. Take what you want.
You get only 1 prism? I went roboallin with prism first for sentry drop and my enemy had units EVRYwhere because he spotted prism with OL because I didn't open SG. Pretty much after that I've skipped prism drop on midgame totally unless im going heroic expansion dtzealot lair snipe style which is also relying on your opponent...
Yeah overall I do like prisms and very useful and awesome, but when your opening and starts relies on prism doing damage it's like going tvp 1base hellion drop? I guess..
This is the part of the build that I love the most. It is incredibly versatile, and whatever unit composition you want to get will most likely work, as long as it counters what the Zerg is doing (ex: can't go mass Zealots vs Mutas...) However, there is one unit you must get for this build to be optimal. The Warp Prism. You should make roughly 2-3 of these wonderful units, and have them spread out over the Zerg's base. (ex:One in the corner of his main, one at his natural, one infront of his natural etc.)"
You're mixing strats here.. The biggest problem people have in PvZ is the idea that you MUST do damage with the units you push out with.. Well you already have by threatening them. Zergs want to expand,macro, and tech. They don't want to have to deal with your Warp Prism or any type of aggression. If it get's denied, oh well. You have all of your basic tech structures and +1 Wep +1 Armor and have just feigned pressure. Your opponent now has to be defensive and is cautious that you are on the map. Sounds like it's done it's job to me. Also, in no way is it like a 1base.. because it's a FFE..?
On April 05 2012 17:16 silentdecay01 wrote: This build is very out of date and very easy to destroy as a zerg player. Kinda of a necro post.
I get that this is basically true - if you see the chronoed forge faster than you'd expect, and a second gateway instead of a cyber core, you as a zerg player should know this is coming. Then you plant down a roach warren a minute or so earlier than you normally would.
So my question to the OP is that: How can you make this work to deal damage to the enemy player's 3rd if this happens? What's the followup plan if your pressure doesn't work, and how do you deal with Stephano style 60 drone 3 hatch roach/ling hammering away at your nat if you don't successfully kill off his third?
I -really- want to be able to go back to this style; it was my favorite for a long time. But now it's just too reliant upon the initial attack dealing damage, which, sadly, higher level players can't be relied on to fall for.
So i have had some seriously insane success with this build on the mid master ladder. It's too solid and i love the style. However instead of going chargelot archon i warp in 4 sentries when i think the attack has done enough damage and 2 immortals while it is going on and expand. By the time the zerg attacks(counters) i have 2 immortals a bunch of sentries and 6 gates of blink stalker warp in ability with colo tech on the way with a third almost fully saturated.
I love this build sheerly because it punishes the zerg the moment they become greedy. I played a game in particular where the zerg expands 3 times by the 8 minute mark and expects to be safe, especially after the first 5 zealots only got a few drones/queen. However, double warp prism harass is just delightfully good at ruining any plans the zerg have. Mid game harrassment resulted in denying about 6 expansions and reducing the zerg drone count to 3.
Would you reccomend using the Warp Prism against Terran? I'd love to begin to use the warp prism in my other match ups.
@Zarent - I've been trying a lot of various things vs the Stephano style roach play, but I think my most successful was throwing down a second Robo once I realized what it was, and getting an absurd amount of Immortals. I pretty much blindly go +2 Immortals vs every Z now unless I know for sure that it's muta or infestor. To ensure more damage, I've also been adding a sentry into my drops, for obvious reasons and sniping the Roach Warren/drones.
@Razultull - Awesome man, thanks a bunch.
@KimJong1L - I do recommend Warp Prism vs Terran, I've been using it a lot of late. I favor the Parting style of PvT since it's really my style, although a bit hard. Since you get the Robo and observers early, you can always load up 1-2 HT with 2 Zealots and go into a mineral line. Terrans seem to be the worst at handeling drops just from lack of experience, so it's an amazing sight once a Prism with 7-8 gates is in their main, with an almost maxed attacking one of their expos.
Against Stephano style roach play what composition do you build your army towards and do you continue to use warp prism if you lose your initial warp prism? Also, how do you respond to someone who covers all their bases with 5+ spines and spores.
Admittedly the Stephano style roach with some hydras added in has been giving me a lot of trouble lately. Mostly due to the fact that I don't use sentries.. However, in any PvZ my ideal composition is stalkers,sentries(guardian shield), 2-3 HT for storm, archons, colossi, mothership, and 2-3 immortals.
More to the point, when facing a Stephano style push, I try to get 2-3 colossi with blinkstalkers/sentry instead of any Immortals. I feel with the amount of reinforcements that are coming, the postioning the immortals need with 6 range, and their attack rate of only a single shot, isn't enough. On the other end you have obviously colossi with AoE and 9 range.
If someone has 5spines and spores at EACH base, then you've done an amazing amount of damage and I'd say your job is done. The Warp Prism is to punish, not kill.If you're wanting to keep the Prism going even during the late game, then you'll have much bigger warp-ins to easily dispose of those spines/spores. It's also a great tool to deny new expansions.
I have more replays! I haven't been doing this style as much but I decided to do it in a PvZ playhem match, and in just a regular old ladder game. Some notes on what I have learned vs this fast 3 hatch with Roaches:
- Trade regularly. You do not want them maxed. If you damage their economy and you get a lead, then force them to continue to produce units.
- Storm is still amazing
- DTs are also amazing on containing your opponent.
On April 22 2012 03:06 Noumena wrote: I have more replays! I haven't been doing this style as much but I decided to do it in a PvZ playhem match, and in just a regular old ladder game. Some notes on what I have learned vs this fast 3 hatch with Roaches:
- Trade regularly. You do not want them maxed. If you damage their economy and you get a lead, then force them to continue to produce units.
- Storm is still amazing
- DTs are also amazing on containing your opponent.
I watched the first, the problem is with that style, is if he spends his money correctly he could have just moved out and killed you at any time. he was floating 1500+ mins most of the game and didn't have a macro hatch either(combined with some forgotten injects). Spending that much on harass is just asking for someone to bust down the front of your base. So yea harassing works against most people, but the build that roman did was different than stephano's build. He went hatch first, which lets you nexus first, which does not gain anything.
I agree, if my opponent played perfectly then I would have lost. But the idea here is he didn't play perfectly, and no one does. I don't think you can necessarily discredit something because my opponent wasn't playing his absolute best.. I missed WG rounds, chronoboost etc. You can't really expect someone to hit larvae injects, spend all of their minerals, and play perfectly when they have all 3 of their expos being harassed almost all game.
I don't understand the last bit of what you said.. "So yea harassing works against most people, but the build that roman did was different than stephano's build. He went hatch first, which lets you nexus first, which does not gain anything." Harassing always works vs Zerg. If they have to stop droning to make units, then it has worked.. period. If he 14 pooled, I still would have Nexus first because of the rush distance and my confidence in holding lings with a nexus first. Sure, if he were to have stayed on two base then he wouldn't have gained anything... but he gets his econ up faster with a hatch first, and he still is getting a 3rd hatch so I don't see the point you're going for.
Oh I agree, people don't always play perfectly, it just seemed like you outclassed what he was doing pretty severely that game, regardless of the harass. I agree though, harassment is a great tool that everyone should utilize, i just don't think people should bank their whole game on harassment, and obviously I see that there is a followup, it just seems like when zergs play against this a bit and realize they can just move-out it doesn't necessarily work anymore.
Also, the stephano roach build takes the third and nat at the same time(well sorta, around 20~ supply), but can use early lings to kill stuff when you nexus first like that. And the econ difference is minimal if at all, getting base 2 and 3 up at the same time and already having 3 queens is a nice part about going pool first.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1WCEg.jpg)
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thanks a lot for that PvZ style/build. Only thing that is causing me to lose is rush to mass muta. 
hasnt happened yet but wondering how to deal with this? ty 
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