EPT[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ - Page 5
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JoonX
Canada72 Posts
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perptuity
8 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:19 morimacil wrote: Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable  As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax? Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win. HHAAH morimacil speaks the truth!! | ||
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jaj22
United Kingdom1376 Posts
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
You'd have to do a faster warp tech timing to keep adding sentries. i think if you had 10 or more seconds extra after your warp tech finished you could have kept warping in more sentries to hold. maybe 10 gate will become standard T_T Nerf larvae inject time :O | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:02 travis wrote: it might be able to get enough sentries if u chrono them before u even know the attack is coming... No, I did the exact same build (I watched the replay a few times to make sure) you did, 3 chronos on the nexus. The only thing I did differently was that all the cb you put into warpgate, I put into chronoing out sentries. The roach warren goes up well before the core finishes (and there's no way for Z to stop P from scouting it because it goes up before lings or queens are out), so by the time your core finishes and you'll have to make the decision what to chrono, you'll know the roaches are coming. It's not a blind decision. | ||
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perptuity
8 Posts
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolis The only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. | ||
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bigbeau
368 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Now suppose I make a post complaining about how 4 gates kill me when I do expand and drone up to 30 drones while the protoss is on 23 probes when the 4 gate shows up. You see the problem? He was being cheesy and aggressive, you still greedily probed up to 23 and payed for it. Change your BO, get the gateways faster and pump out units ASAP. You can affrod at most 16 probes if you know it's coming. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:29 perptuity wrote: I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble. They have 14 drones and no tech. They can't double expand at all, they can barely expand just once, and even if they did, it won't be long after you expand yourself before you're knocking at their natural with immortals and gateway units. Watch the replay I posted. | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:33 Salv wrote: They have 14 drones and no tech. They can't double expand at all, they can barely expand just once, and even if they did, it won't be long after you expand yourself before you're knocking at their natural with immortals and gateway units. Watch the replay I posted. This. If they expand, it will take them a ridiculous amount of time to even get TWO bases saturated, nevermind double expanding | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
to counter this build you should start up warpgate tech but do not use any chronoboosts on warpgate tech. instead have 2 gateways and keep using your chronoboosts on the gateways to pump out more units before the roaches arrive if you scout a zerg going 14-17 workers roach/ling rush you can seriously just beat it with a standard 4gate, or 2gate robo or 2gate stargate this is VERY easy to beat if you wanna see how to beat this i could even play a game with you and i will be protoss and you can be zerg and i will just use a standard build and beat this | ||
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:17 Lamabot wrote: Since you invested into heavy warpgate count, it was in your best interest to close off the wall completely once you started to see you don't have enough sentries to hold it. Additional units after walloff is broken could have perhaps held it off. This is essentially what I see as well. This is sort of a "Great wall of Hong Un" situation without the voidray, for anyone who saw that. You scouted a missing hatch a 4:40, which is later than what you would see out of a regular speed first expand. This is when you should have more or less known some rush was coming. At that point, you had a worker lead 22:14, 1 gateway up and 1 gateway warping in. by the time the rush hit and your delay tactics (sentries) gave way, it was 5:40. you had warpgates finished, 455 minerals banked, and a worker lead of 24:14. (I'd have to go back and check, but I think you also dropped an extra gateway in the middle of your base. It could have been used on the wall.) I think the best, and probably only solution, is to wall off with additional gateways. You could have dropped 3 more by the time your sentries ran out of FFs, though it'd be best to wall off as needed instead of in advance. If you can Keep them up while also building a small army, you can easily defend the push and counter for the win. You had almost twice his economy, and could have easily sacrificed the extra minerals for more gateways. It takes lings + 3 roaches a very long time to kill gateways, even longer if you keep making sentries. The only problem I see with this defense is that you're likely to lose your core before you can repel the push, and you'll need ranged units to hold it. Even then, it's not really too much trouble to build an extra core instead of a gateway to reinforce the wall. Alternatively you could finish the wall with a forge and reinforce with cannons (stop mining gas). This is a weaker choice, as you were already mostly saturated on minerals, and cannons are worthless after you defend. Hold the push at any cost, and you've probably secured a win. If you absolutely have to pull your probes, do it sooner so you can plug the hole and not get surrounded. I'm not saying I would have held the push, but it looks doable to me. On a side note, sentries outrange roaches. | ||
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perptuity
8 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:33 Salv wrote: They have 14 drones and no tech. They can't double expand at all, they can barely expand just once, and even if they did, it won't be long after you expand yourself before you're knocking at their natural with immortals and gateway units. Watch the replay I posted. ........ if he pulled all 14 drones to mine, stuck 10+ speedling + 3 roaches outside ur base, ur cybercore would not be out untill at least 6mins since normal time is 4, if u cancel build forge+ cannon, it's almost 2 more mins, so warp gate wont be out till 7+, then u need to warp atleast 2 round of units to even think abt walking out since all the lings and 3 roaches......... and if u want immortal, that will take even longer.................that gives zerg 4-5 mins to drone up SAFELY and I dont see the need to go on..... | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those | ||
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
Well, now I feel like I've been working too hard for my ZvP wins  .Ok, so, just some theorycrafting here, and admittedly I play Zerg not Protoss... First Option: I wonder if it would work to delay a probe a bit after scouting the roach den and get a second gate. As a previous poster mentioned, your 1 gate vs his injected hatch is a tough matchup unless you can manage to perma-forcefield your ramp. The problem is, zealots are made worthless by a bit of micro from the zerg player, and also being outnumbered. Stalkers just aren't powerful enough, and I don't know if you would have enough gas to get stalkers and sentries. Getting a fast stalker to get rid of the spotting overlord would be nice, but I don't think it would help as much as we need to hold this off. All that leaves is sentries, and I doubt you have enough gas income to make a second gateway worth it for sentries. That said, you were very close to getting another sentry and being able to potentially hold this off. If you scout a roach warren and ling speed, one crono boost on a sentry could give you that extra bit of time (and energy) that you need. Second Option: I understand why getting a forge is horrible here. But you may have to do it. Considering the Zerg spent a drone and 150 mins on the roach warren, that doesn't really kill you. Then, you need to send a probe out to his base at 4:30 to look for roaches en route to your base. His ling speed isn't done yet, so you should be able to scout for a while before losing the probe, and hopefully either see it coming or delay it. If/once you see it, my suggestion would be to wall off with another gate, get a cannon up, delay with the forcefields you have to let cannon(s) finish, and make stalker/sentry. Your income is greater than his, and once warp finishes, you're in a much more comfortable place. His mention of baneling busting seems a bit wierd. Though he did continue mining gas after the 176 for ling speed + 3 roaches, if he needs to baneling bust a hard wall (gate-core-gate), that requires him to build a baneling nest (which is 50 seconds IIRC) and 13 banelings just to take out your wall. I feel like in that amount of time/wasted resources to take out your wall, you would be in the favorable position. But again, I've never used this or had it used on me, pure theorycrafting here. | ||
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Flexx
United States87 Posts
On February 02 2011 13:41 travis wrote: because the matchup is retarded if i have to blindly get cannons every game vs zerg? i wanted to try to stop it without cannons. I love how you make a thread saying it's impossible to stop, but then say you just don't want to make cannons. QQ more. Or did you miss the part where 4Kmonk and several other good P tell you what to do? | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote: To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolis The only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. On February 02 2011 14:43 perptuity wrote: ........ if he pulled all 14 drones to mine, stuck 10+ speedling + 3 roaches outside ur base, ur cybercore would not be out untill at least 6mins since normal time is 4, if u cancel build forge+ cannon, it's almost 2 more mins, so warp gate wont be out till 7+, then u need to warp atleast 2 round of units to even think abt walking out since all the lings and 3 roaches......... and if u want immortal, that will take even longer.................that gives zerg 4-5 mins to drone up SAFELY and I dont see the need to go on..... Cybercore comes before 5 minutes; check my replay. All of what you just said is pointless because you'll be on one base fully saturated with tech and multiple gateways. Who cares if he expands? Who cares if he drones up? He'll have less drones and less tech than he would have if he simply made a 14 hatchery and droned, which is completely standard PvZ - either way you wind up ahead. | ||
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Nis
Singapore45 Posts
The build from the roach looks really formidable, i think it would be autowin against standard gate core opener from toss who tries to go 3 gate to stop it. But 1 thing i notice from that build is that, you can completely scout it, because his roach warren timing comes up before lings, and first and foremost, the probe scout now needs to hang around the zerg base a bit longer to confirm that he is going for this build Secondly, I tested it out, while doing the standard gate core opener, once you scout it, cut probes (still ahead a bit on worker count) and drop a forge asap then cannons, while chronoing the single gateway. The cannons should just start warping in as the units reach your base. 1 Forcefield, then 1 pylon block should buy enough time for 2-3 cannons to warp in to break the push. On close rush though this might be slightly more brutal, but yep, this build have to be absolutely scouted and a forge right after cybercore asap is needed to stop it The zerg however is in no way crippled if he pulls back once the cannons warp in though, he can just expo, the game proceeds as normal. This looks brutally powerful. His lings roach can deny you from expoing for a pretty damn long time until your warp tech + 2 additional gates kick in for 2 cycles, while he can expo right away after he sees your cannons finish warping in. Man this build, really impressive edit for grammer | ||
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