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this is the 3rd time i've played this guy. i even knew this was coming. yes of course i could get a forge and some cannons but let's be honest, if u have to blindly forge and put cannons on top of ur ramp there is something wrong with the matchup. I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced, but.. what the hell, come on.
could a player better than myself (3200 master) please tell me what im supposed to do? hell, could any player please tell me what to do to stop this?
http://www.2shared.com/file/FXZMev4q/how_do_i_beat_this_pvz.html
UPDATE:
someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice!
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Unfortunately when I try to use your link it keeps telling me my computer isn't compatible with their content.
Could you upload it on another site?
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This is the last person i expected to see write this sort of thread.. checking rep now though but I'm not better than you so take my advice with a grain of salt.
EDIT: Holy shit what the fuck.. thats.... WOW.
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On February 02 2011 13:11 TheButtonmen wrote: Unfortunately when I try to use your link it keeps telling me my computer isn't compatible with their content.
Could you upload it on another site?
http://www.mediafire.com/?nw2hgf4zjwwjcjh
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I'm so gonna try this on ladder ^^
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That was pretty damn cool.
For anyone who cant download the replay, its basically speedlings with 3 roaches to pressure the wall. And there are alot of lings.
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This seems like a roach rush with mass lings behind it. I know no one says this or does this, and I'm just a 2700 diamond, but if you go gateway, robo, gateway and chrono out your first immortal, it pops out just as the roaches are hitting your front, the hard part is the zerglings, but perhaps sentry control is the answer, but you can have an immortal out on time. Try testing that out, not guarenteeing it'll work, but try it.
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sweet strategy! i´m definetely doing this when i go ZvP next time (random) wouldn´t 2gate opening be pretty good just to delay the attack? can he get roaches out in time that is.. ?
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On February 02 2011 13:21 confusedcrib wrote: This seems like a roach rush with mass lings behind it. I know no one says this or does this, and I'm just a 2700 diamond, but if you go gateway, robo, gateway and chrono out your first immortal, it pops out just as the roaches are hitting your front, the hard part is the zerglings, but perhaps sentry control is the answer, but you can have an immortal out on time. Try testing that out
dude, ur so wrong, there is no way in hell the immortal would be out even close to in time
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I'm waiting to see exactly how many 3200+ Master Leaguers give a solution on this thread. :D
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Yeah, assuming you do scout it... either cannons or open void + complete wall off, I know the difficulty with opening void against zerg because then they go hydra and can really fuck you in a second attack with roach hydra, but unfortunately those are the only options I see.
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3200 master here too Try stalkers and add a pylon block entrance instead of zealot while harassing the roaches from attacking ur pylon until ur 3 gates are up to add more units in
He only has 3 roaches so he wont break that pylon too fast until u get out an additional 3 stalkers then use probes as well to stop the incoming lings wave
zealot sentry stalker instead of zealot sentry sentry
Not sure if this will stop, never seen this build
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ur not very high rated are u? t.t
it's about the timing. notice i make 2 sentries asap, i've used my gateway constantly, and i still can't hold it.
let's be honest, had i chronoboosted units out of the gateway i still wouldn't be able to stop it. that should be clear from the replay
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On February 02 2011 13:23 baoluvboa wrote: 3200 master here too Try stalkers and add a pylon block entrance instead of zealot while harassing the roaches from attacking ur pylon until ur 3 gates are up to add more units in
He only has 3 roaches so he wont break that pylon too fast until u get out an additional 3 stalkers then use probes as well to stop the incoming lings wave
zealot sentry stalker instead of zealot sentry sentry
Not sure if this will stop, never seen this build
yeah that's what i think... cancel second sentry build a stalker... but im gonna be honest, i don't think that will possibly stop it too. might stop it if i like just keep adding to my wall over and over but it's gonna be the most ridic hard hold ever
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On February 02 2011 13:23 travis wrote:ur not very high rated are u? t.t it's about the timing. notice i make 2 sentries asap, i've used my gateway constantly, and i still can't hold it. let's be honest, had i chronoboosted units out of the gateway i still wouldn't be able to stop it. that should be clear from the replay
I was going to stay you shoulda chronoed gateway but it still wouldnt have worked since they'd have busted before anything else..
This hits LONG before a 5RR does Travis is right guys look at the timing -.-
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The best idea I have without changing your build (which is pretty standard) would be to forcefield the ramp to lock some units in and then pull probes to kill them until your warp gate is done. You're 10 workers ahead when this attack comes so you can afford to lose some workers.
Another option is to scout his lack of expansion and throw down a forge, you can scout at the normal expo time for a speed first build and have almost enough time to get cannons up, he shouldn't be able to deny your scout since his speed isn't finished yet. The cannons would barely finish with 1 forcefield worth of delay. You can probably hold it with 2 cannons doing this since you'll have a second forcefield to cut his army in half.
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On February 02 2011 13:23 travis wrote:ur not very high rated are u? t.t it's about the timing. notice i make 2 sentries asap, i've used my gateway constantly, and i still can't hold it. let's be honest, had i chronoboosted units out of the gateway i still wouldn't be able to stop it. that should be clear from the replay
My apology, didn't look at the timing clearly.
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On February 02 2011 13:24 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:23 baoluvboa wrote: 3200 master here too Try stalkers and add a pylon block entrance instead of zealot while harassing the roaches from attacking ur pylon until ur 3 gates are up to add more units in
He only has 3 roaches so he wont break that pylon too fast until u get out an additional 3 stalkers then use probes as well to stop the incoming lings wave
zealot sentry stalker instead of zealot sentry sentry
Not sure if this will stop, never seen this build yeah that's what i think... cancel second sentry build a stalker... but im gonna be honest, i don't think that will possibly stop it too. might stop it if i like just keep adding to my wall over and over but it's gonna be the most ridic hard hold ever
yea its only the timing that is deadly, once u stop the initial break with pylon block, won't be too bad when u get out 3 additional units + probes
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lowly diamond here, but it seems like if you pull some probes to hold off the lings in lieu of zealots and get stalkers to back them up you should be able to come out roughly even.
edit- people keep mentioning getting three sentries. Even with them out the roaches can snipe buildings. If you didn't wall it would be easier to keep them safe.
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Well one way to stop it was to do exactly what you were doing(keep cranking sentries out). You could have had a 3rd sentry out if you cancelled the sentry that was no where near being finished. Then made ure gateway a warpgate and warped the sentry in. You should be able to permanently keep it out after warpgate tech finishes. ~3k Masters
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Seems like it could be stopped more easily if you scouted the roach warren/lack of expo. It's pretty aggressive from the zerg with only 14 drones. If you manage to see it coming, cut probes/2nd gas to add your gateways sooner you should be able to delay long enough for some more units to get out. Then just attack with units and some probes.
Think of it as something like a reverse 4-gate I guess. Just like Z has a hard time defending a 4gate that isn't scouted, P should have a hard time stopping a roach timing push that isn't scouted.
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Looks like if you spent that chrono on the gateway instead of the cyber core you would have had a third sentry for a third force field. The third force field would have bought enough time for 50 mana on the first sentry, and the first sentry's second force field would have bought enough time for your second sentry's force field. By now you should have your fourth sentry, or at the very least enough energy on the third sentry for another force field. Looks like a pretty simple hold from there.
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You scouted a finished gas at that point in the game and you didn't make a 2nd gateway instead of the core? Do you know what kind of damage a 13 pool 12 gas does to a zerg econ? Not to mention he stopped making drones and would have been way behind anyway. Try making the second gateway before the cyber. It might not work, but that's the only direction there is for beating something like this.
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You could've scouted the Warren and just put up 1 or 2 cannons. It wouldn't be blind, you hold his all-in, and be miles ahead. The FF's would've given you enough time to build the cannon.
You said you knew it was coming, so the second you see the warren go down, drop a forge. 1 or 2 cannons stop this attack dead.
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seems like its quite an all in.
didn't seem that hard to spot when u see a roach warren going down after pool finishes
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Are you sure you can't hold this by chronoing out your sentries instead of your warpgate? I thought 3 sentries were enough to block the ramp forever if the first sentry has time to build up a bit of energy. And you could definitely have gotten 3 sentries out in time if you'd chrono boosted them.
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I sort of agree. In the replay it looked like you didn't scout the Roach Warren. If you see the Warren you can expect either Roach aggression or Roach expand. Chrono out first immortal, get an obs, get your second gate up quickly and get some extra zealots out. Hold position the zealots and target fire the Roaches. If you can finish off the Roaches either he makes more or retreats. Considering that this is all-in he will make more. Therefore, continue making immortals. I am probably simplifying this too much, and I have not used nor played against this build but that is my take on it.
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Would this only work against protoss?
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This look freaking hard to stop, i will copy this build. The guy must be mad his secret BO's been exposed lol.
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United States8476 Posts
You have to check for the existence of a hatchery around 3:40. If it's not there, run up the ramp by clicking on some minerals and check for either roach warren, baneling nest, lair, or nothing. If it's a roach warren throw up a forge and delay with sentries for long enough to get 2 cannons up. The guy in the replay said to put 3, but in my experience, 2 is enough. I don't see baneling busts working vs sentries.
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Isn't this pretty much just a 5RR that's a little earlier with 2 less roaches? I feel like if you chrono your gateways instead of your warpgate research you'd be much better off. Also, a stalker or two would be better than a sentry.
What DID look scary was the lings running through the sentries. Was that just not a tight wall, or some kind of bug exploitation?
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On February 02 2011 13:29 echuchee wrote: Well one way to stop it was to do exactly what you were doing(keep cranking sentries out). You could have had a 3rd sentry out if you cancelled the sentry that was no where near being finished. Then made ure gateway a warpgate and warped the sentry in. You should be able to permanently keep it out after warpgate tech finishes. ~3k Masters
no... watch the replay carefully. there is no way to keep forcefielding the ramp in time to keep the roaches out. u don't have enough forcefields. and then as soon as the roaches get up ur zealot dies, and ur sentries will be next to die
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you need cannons to stop it.
if you see no hatch by 3-4 mins get a forge and cannons asap.
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Since he didn't even have lings out to chase your probe away before starting the roach warren, this seems pretty easy to scout. Wall off with a pylon and drop a cannon or two, along with a forcefield, should stop it cold.
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some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
if i forged it would have to be ahead of time it'd be a pretty blind forge and that's pretty ridiculous don't u think?
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
if you knew it was coming then why did you not build cannons
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and scouting a pool officially requires building a forge now 8)
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I agree a complete walloff temporarily will solve it till there are sufficient units already.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
Forge takes 50 seconds to build. You held that ramp for over a minute, meaning cannos would've had time to finish too, if you started the forge the second you saw a warren.
The second he drops that warren, he had not yet chased your scout out, he had no lings.
You had PLENTY of time to get up 2 cannons and auto win, since his attack was beyond all in.
On February 02 2011 13:39 eth3n wrote: and scouting a pool officially requires building a forge now 8)
No, he could've easily scouted the warren, his scout wasn't chased out, he just left. Scouting a warren when zerg has 14 drones? Drop forge.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 Tantaburs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. if you knew it was coming then why did you not build cannons
because the matchup is retarded if i have to blindly get cannons every game vs zerg? i wanted to try to stop it without cannons.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
if i forged it would have to be ahead of time it'd be a pretty blind forge and that's pretty ridiculous don't u think?
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making.
This marks the day where Travis, one of the few veterans still left here loses his faith in TL.
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This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p
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On February 02 2011 13:40 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. Forge takes 50 seconds to build. You held that ramp for over a minute, meaning cannos would've had time to finish too, if you started the forge the second you saw a warren.
a forcefield lasts 15 seconds, right?
i used 2 forcefields.
if even when i scouted the lack of an expansion i put down a forge cannons would not be done in time, I would have to add on to my wall. im sure its stoppable using cannons in theory but what about all the times I am not able to scout him?
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On February 02 2011 13:41 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 Tantaburs wrote:On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. if you knew it was coming then why did you not build cannons because the matchup is retarded if i have to blindly get cannons every game vs zerg? i wanted to try to stop it without cannons.
you dont have to blindy get cannons but if you scout a roach ling all in then yeah you need cannons.
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On February 02 2011 13:41 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 Tantaburs wrote:On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. if you knew it was coming then why did you not build cannons because the matchup is retarded if i have to blindly get cannons every game vs zerg? i wanted to try to stop it without cannons.
How are you getting cannons blindly? You scout warren, drop forge, win game. I don't get why you're so against cannons, when clearly its the solution against zerg all ins that HE CANNOT RECOVER FROM.
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Lol. When I saw the thread topic, I had a feeling it might be this strat. Actually the guy didn't even do it all that great. Better way is to drone to 17, queen+warren at once, pull drones off gas @ 175mined, then same roach+massling but expand while at it. I've called this maxamrush for some while, since I've faced guy called that 5 times in blistering pvz and everytime done exactly the same.
I don't know how you should exactly play it out, but imo chronoing warp throughout if you see warren would be the best. I lost more times to this than won, but when I did just very fast 4gate with 5stalkers @ 5:30 I won it. Also it's true you should block the ramp with pylon instead of zealot if you know it's coming. That buys the required extra time. I suppose it's possible to counter this with sentries too, I just don't like it. Indeed going for cannons just because you see he starts warren isn't smart. You'll defend this rush, but lose if he changes his gameplan at all.
Basically imo you should defend it as you defend vs 6-10pools. If you sense it's coming, switch to 4gate. It's damn hard to counter, and when well executed the 1base zerg will definately lose to it if he gets no massive dmg done with the earlypool. From my experience very few <3,2k zergs ever win well executed 4gate in normal circumstances - zerg that craps on his own eco has even less of a chance. So I'd just go for saved chrono for warp and have it ready @ 5:20 or so and kill the guy if he tries this. 1gas, max 1 sentry. Ofc preferably you should do 10-12gate if you expect any cheesiness.
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I lost a few games to a similar build earlier today too. It might be worth it to completely wall your front using either a pylon, or even placing one of your gateways there so your wall consists of a core and 2 gateways. That will stall long enough for you to get out a round of stalkers.
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On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p
im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to.
i might get an immortal out as his roaches and speedlings enter my base and now i have an immortal to fight 1 or 2 roaches and 30 speedlings, doesn't sound like a very good plan
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lings are too good if they get a surround, I would say more zealots, and chrono units instead of warpgate, or make a complte wall with a forge as soon as you see it and add a cannon, he is totally all in at that point.
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On February 02 2011 13:44 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to.
It's how I stop roach rushes, I have never lost to a roach rush with it. I realize the zerglings are an additional problem, I don't know how to deal with that. But for god's sake just try it, I'm good enough to realize an immortal is good against roaches and that it can pop almost in time, probably in time if optimized, just try it. Or keep complaining that no one can help you at Zerg is imba. I also get 2 warp gates up, with more efficient use of chrono boosting, perhaps you could warp in an additional 2 units in time. It's not just an immortal, it's 2 zealots, a stalker, 2 warp ins, and an immortal
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I think maybe you could have made a couple more zealots and try to stall for stalkers, but I'm not sure.
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On February 02 2011 13:35 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:29 echuchee wrote: Well one way to stop it was to do exactly what you were doing(keep cranking sentries out). You could have had a 3rd sentry out if you cancelled the sentry that was no where near being finished. Then made ure gateway a warpgate and warped the sentry in. You should be able to permanently keep it out after warpgate tech finishes. ~3k Masters no... watch the replay carefully. there is no way to keep forcefielding the ramp in time to keep the roaches out. u don't have enough forcefields. and then as soon as the roaches get up ur zealot dies, and ur sentries will be next to die
Woops, looking back at it, that would have worked if you had just a few more seconds. Well i guess the next best thing, is if you know its coming, then photons are the way to go. When they broke through you had 450 minerals and 200 gas. I'm sure the minerals could have been put into photons. You just have to use them to delay a bit until warpgate tech finishes.
Non Forge Option: I also saw suggestions in this thread for putting up a pylon to block it to buy time, but that would die way too quickly, you could consider putting a gateway down to block the gap, since it takes over twice as much hp and shields and only costs 50 minerals more, this could buy you even more time. After you buy yourself that time warpgate tech should be finished. Then make your 3 other gates into warpgates and u should be able to make enough units in time to defend it when they breach(may have to pull a few probes, but since their build is pretty much all-in, probes dieing wont hurt you too bad.
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On February 02 2011 13:35 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:29 echuchee wrote: Well one way to stop it was to do exactly what you were doing(keep cranking sentries out). You could have had a 3rd sentry out if you cancelled the sentry that was no where near being finished. Then made ure gateway a warpgate and warped the sentry in. You should be able to permanently keep it out after warpgate tech finishes. ~3k Masters no... watch the replay carefully. there is no way to keep forcefielding the ramp in time to keep the roaches out. u don't have enough forcefields. and then as soon as the roaches get up ur zealot dies, and ur sentries will be next to die
Alright, I just tried this out in single player (with my patchy p too, I'm sure it'd be possible to do it a few seconds faster). You put down your first FF at 5:11. If you chrono out sentries, you have 2 sentries at 5:11 with the third building. By the time the third FF wears off, your first sentry has enough energy for a fourth FF. By the time that wears off, you easily have a fourth sentry out and your warpgate research finishes.
What am I not getting here?
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On February 02 2011 13:44 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to. i might get an immortal out as his roaches and speedlings enter my base and now i have an immortal to fight 1 or 2 roaches and 30 speedlings, doesn't sound like a very good plan
why are you ignoring other people here?
wall off with another pylon, or even better, another gate way and this is not even as fast as the 7 roach rush, which can be blocked for a long time with just sentries
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On February 02 2011 13:48 han_han wrote: I think maybe you could have made a couple more zealots and try to stall for stalkers, but I'm not sure.
LOL. I wish I had words to describe my reaction to this post..
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Actually I'm surprised you don't see the "slow" warp as part of the problem. The earliest time you could've done +3units as warp was 5:45. That doesn't cut it against 10gate 4gates in pvp imo? Imo you should defend this the same way you defend 10gate 4gates, since 4-5 stalkers can hit @ 5:20 when well done. It's very similar rush with same effect, all you need to change is have some zealots in those first 5 units, where you usually have 5stalkers. Ofc 5stalkers with good probecontrol can do it too.
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On February 02 2011 13:46 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:44 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to. It's how I stop roach rushes, I have never lost to a roach rush with it. I realize the zerglings are an additional problem, I don't know how to deal with that. But for god's sake just try it, I'm good enough to realize an immortal is good against roaches and that it can pop almost in time, probably in time if optimized, just try it. Or keep complaining that no one can help you at Zerg is imba. I also get 2 warp gates up, with more efficient use of chrono boosting, perhaps you could warp in an additional 2 units in time. It's not just an immortal, it's 2 zealots, a stalker, 2 warp ins, and an immortal
To support OP: that indeed is not the way to do it. The push is _3_ roaches and rest lings, you don't want to use 200/100 on robo and 245/100 on very slow to make immortal to fight them, specially since lings will be surrounding your too small army making you actually unable to hit roaches with immos. Immos just don't fit 1base play all too well in pvz.
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For those who are curious or did not watch the replay, the roaches get into the toss base at 5:45, which I believe is the timing that the roaches show up at the opponent's base in a 7 roach rush. And in this case, they got in *after* being delayed by sentries' FF, so normally they could bust in even sooner.
BO is as follows.
10 ovie 10-13 drone 13 pool 12 gas 11-14 drone 15 queen 17 roach warren 16 a pair of lings to deny scouting @ 100 gas ling speed 17 ovie inject on queen pop and on every injection timing from there on out or the build will greatly suffer 3 roaches, pull drones from gas, and the rest lings.
Ling speed will finish at about the time roaches show up to your opponent's base. Make sure to have a spotter overlord to do what damage you can while you wait for any sentries to expend their energy from FF. Keep making lings, get them inside the base, and gg
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On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p
Yeah, uh, immortals won't really cut it. To get one out in time, you must cut from the already small enough gateway force and the lings will just tear through it once they get through.
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I suggest getting a practice partner who does this again and again to you. This way, you'll get to try out different techniques and find one that works best for you.
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I played against this build sometimes too I even had 2 stalker and no sentry still they just destroyed me.
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If you had dropped forge the second the warren went down, you would definitely have had up to two cannons before the roaches hit your front, though it would be close. (Cannon+forge=90 seconds, Warren+Roach=72 seconds, and the rush distance makes up for the rest) I'm not sure if there is any way for the Z to either transition out of the build or continue to put pressure on you after the cannons went up--as he would not be able to know that you had dropped a forge until the cannons were started. That's the only solution that I can think of--you seem to have tried everything else. The timings seem right, but I suppose that it needs testing.
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On February 02 2011 13:55 echuchee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p Yeah, uh, immortals won't really cut it. To get one out in time, you must cut from the already small enough gateway force and the lings will just tear through it once they get through. then instead of immortals make it a void ray
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I used similar build during beta on still on steppes. Why this works? It strikes just before warp upgrade on break ramp with roaches.
In this game you had 1 non-chronoboosted gate vs 1 hatch with constant injects. thats pretty bad match up no matter what units you make. You chronoboosted your warp upgrade which unfortunately didnt help to stop this.
So if you scout the build incoming you may have to plan stopping it without finishing warp technology. Whether it be using forge cannons or chrono boosting units from multiple gates before warp is done. Zerg is on 14 drones without any tech so you can use whatever to hold this and be fine. At least 1 non-chronoboosted gate and rushed warp upgrade wasnt enough.
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On February 02 2011 13:48 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:35 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 13:29 echuchee wrote: Well one way to stop it was to do exactly what you were doing(keep cranking sentries out). You could have had a 3rd sentry out if you cancelled the sentry that was no where near being finished. Then made ure gateway a warpgate and warped the sentry in. You should be able to permanently keep it out after warpgate tech finishes. ~3k Masters no... watch the replay carefully. there is no way to keep forcefielding the ramp in time to keep the roaches out. u don't have enough forcefields. and then as soon as the roaches get up ur zealot dies, and ur sentries will be next to die Alright, I just tried this out in single player (with my patchy p too, I'm sure it'd be possible to do it a few seconds faster). You put down your first FF at 5:11. If you chrono out sentries, you have 2 sentries at 5:11 with the third building. By the time the third FF wears off, your first sentry has enough energy for a fourth FF. By the time that wears off, you easily have a fourth sentry out and your warpgate research finishes. What am I not getting here?
it might be able to get enough sentries if u chrono them before u even know the attack is coming...
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Its just another stupidly powerful all in, ive had it happen to me when i 3 gate sentry expand and it pretty much hard counters it, you simply do not have the production to defend yourself at the time it usually comes.
If you rush to immortal then thats a huge resource sink and its countered by the majority of the zergs force, zerglings, the roaches are just their to take out the zealot wall in. Also you would have to blindly go for a fast robo, not good in pvz unless you plan on being cute with +1 zealot drop or something.
You could possibly get the forge up but i think if you dropped the forge purely off what you were scouting and not blindly putting it down it would be to late between forge + cannon build time.
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I too was hit with this build today @ 3k diamond on steppes. Completely crushed me doing a standard sentry heavy 3 gate expand. Roachling hit when i had 2 sentry 1 zeal and despite holding the push I had nearly nothing as I had to pull probes. He quickly ended it with speedlings afterward.
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Jesus. That's a scary timing. Thanks for posting--you just ensured that every good Z is about to start doing this. I'd need to practice against it, but I think the double gas is a mistake for sure. Unless you can get enough sentries to FF the ramp forever, the sentries are just going to wind up delaying for 30 sec and then being crappy combat units when he gets in. Think of it like a PvP 4 gate. 1 sentry to cut the army in half is great, but more than that and your army sucks when he does get up.
Robo is definitely not the answer. Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win.
I'd try to defend by staying on 1 gas and going mostly zealots with a sentry or 2 just to cut the army in half. If you cut probes to get a super fast second gate after your core, I think you could have a significant force of zealots at that timing. Then you let some lings in, forcefield the rest out, and try to clean up. You can afford to pull probes and lose some.
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Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you.
Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly.
What's the problem with this Travis?
On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win.
That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat.
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Delay more, Build more units, Build better units, use probes. It's quick, but it's just an all in timing you're not used to. Treat it more like an all in.
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Also, I always drop my gw on 12 just to help with chz against Z
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Well, you scouted a 13 pool. Only things that come to mind for me are speedling expand, roach rush, 1 base muta, or 1 base nydus. Chrono sentry. Why wouldn't you? It completely blocks standard roach rushes, 1 base muta fails, you're not hurt by it if he speedling expands, and no one nydus's effectively. You see he does not take guys off gas -> eliminates speedling expand. You see he throws down a roach warren -> continue chrono'ing sentries. Then you can forcefield...
Lastly, wtf @ the zerglings running by your units...
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clearly you need to put up 3 cannons travis. haha. i only bothered to check replay cause you started post.
time to make the map pool better. bigger maps usually solve everything.
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I think the first problem was your investment into post-warpgate. You spent just about every single chronoboost on warpgate tech and as a result suffered from quite a shortage of units. Perhaps chronoboosting units out (as long as you have scouted it, your probe should be alive for long enough to stop the roach warren) would give you a stronger army to fight or a higher sentry count.
Since you invested into heavy warpgate count, it was in your best interest to close off the wall completely once you started to see you don't have enough sentries to hold it. Additional units after walloff is broken could have perhaps held it off.
You continue producing a sentry out of a gateway after your warpgate has been researched. Cancelling that sentry and ordering warpgate should have gave you a third sentry in time for a third forcefield.
So TL;DR: You invested in warpgate so you should have delayed at all cost until your warpgates are in effect.
2760 Masters (P)
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Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win.
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live.
Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax?
Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win.
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I think imareaver3 is right, I like to think of this build in the same category as 6 pool. you have to treat this build as a cheesy all in and wall in might be ur best option, since zerg would not be able to transition out of it smoothly, ur 4 gate was 10sec away from kicking in. 1 zealot, 2 sentry + 4 warp unit, u literally lost the game by 10 secs.
Here is how i assume it'd go in a game without knowing which build zerg uses. once the early early roach warren is scouted, toss should go 4 gate, probe should be checking zerg mineral line, see if drone production is halted. if yes. wall off fully, (ofcoz chrono warpgate, get 1 sentry).
I'd assume once 4 gate kick in, hes production would not be even close.
i'm 1k master only though.
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I get with this today as well and went zealot and stalkers in the beginning and still lost...ugh have you tried just chronoboosting your gateway and opt for a sentry first then start the warp gate research?
your first sentry was about 13-17 energy away from having enough energy to cast another FF...this is definitely an all-in from Zerg but the overlord spotting on the top is painful...
I think 3 gate getting the sentries...once you have enough sentries to cast FF you should be fine
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I've been trying other 3gate builds where I go gateway-gas-gas-cyber to get more gas to start warp gate and the sentry at once
I need a Zerg practice partner to see if this build can hold it off
FlatLine.637
NA Server
I'm ~2800 Diamond Protoss
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On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. I would have to second this, I would expect an ordinary roach rush when I scouted this though.
What I always do when I suspect a roach rush and it's close enough positions is just rally my first zealot into their base instead of trying to defend it. It'll force them to make lings and throw their carefully planned and timed build off, sometimes I'll throw an extra stalker in their too depending on how it goes. Not sure if it'll work here as the timing is pretty tight.
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Not a pro here, but just observing. I think the critical time is at the 3 min mark. Thats about the time you planted the core and he plants the warren. It was also around the same time you moved out the scouting probe from his base to avoid the hatching lings. The probe wasnt too far from spotting the warren and since zerg cant really hide tech, to sacrifice that probe for that intel was a viable option. By that time, you can cancel the core, plant a forge, wall in and cannon up. Be aware though because he could see with the overlord and cancel the warren. Now thats another story... LOL
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On February 02 2011 14:19 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. Show nested quote +hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax? Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win.
HHAAH morimacil speaks the truth!!
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I tested against a similar build and attack timing a while ago. My conclusion was that to have the best chance of beating it you had to drop the second gas and warpgate, and chrono units out of two gates instead.
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i just watched the replay and lol wow that is rediculous to stop if you play standard.
You'd have to do a faster warp tech timing to keep adding sentries. i think if you had 10 or more seconds extra after your warp tech finished you could have kept warping in more sentries to hold.
maybe 10 gate will become standard T_T
Nerf larvae inject time :O
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On February 02 2011 14:02 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:48 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 13:35 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 13:29 echuchee wrote: Well one way to stop it was to do exactly what you were doing(keep cranking sentries out). You could have had a 3rd sentry out if you cancelled the sentry that was no where near being finished. Then made ure gateway a warpgate and warped the sentry in. You should be able to permanently keep it out after warpgate tech finishes. ~3k Masters no... watch the replay carefully. there is no way to keep forcefielding the ramp in time to keep the roaches out. u don't have enough forcefields. and then as soon as the roaches get up ur zealot dies, and ur sentries will be next to die Alright, I just tried this out in single player (with my patchy p too, I'm sure it'd be possible to do it a few seconds faster). You put down your first FF at 5:11. If you chrono out sentries, you have 2 sentries at 5:11 with the third building. By the time the third FF wears off, your first sentry has enough energy for a fourth FF. By the time that wears off, you easily have a fourth sentry out and your warpgate research finishes. What am I not getting here? it might be able to get enough sentries if u chrono them before u even know the attack is coming...
No, I did the exact same build (I watched the replay a few times to make sure) you did, 3 chronos on the nexus. The only thing I did differently was that all the cb you put into warpgate, I put into chronoing out sentries. The roach warren goes up well before the core finishes (and there's no way for Z to stop P from scouting it because it goes up before lings or queens are out), so by the time your core finishes and you'll have to make the decision what to chrono, you'll know the roaches are coming. It's not a blind decision.
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I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble.
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To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished.
Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
The only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either.
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the counter to this build is not to get sentries. get stalkers and kill the 3 roaches while on hold position. sentries are a stalling tactic that ends up hurting you when the ffs finally run out because they are so weak. stalkers can hold the wall until you can either kill the roaches or get a zealot out to wall with and still be able to hold the roaches. IMMORTAL DOES NOT WORK. it will get out as they are breaking through.
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When he came with the roaches you had 23 probes and he had 14 drones.
Now suppose I make a post complaining about how 4 gates kill me when I do expand and drone up to 30 drones while the protoss is on 23 probes when the 4 gate shows up.
You see the problem? He was being cheesy and aggressive, you still greedily probed up to 23 and payed for it. Change your BO, get the gateways faster and pump out units ASAP. You can affrod at most 16 probes if you know it's coming.
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On February 02 2011 14:29 perptuity wrote: I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble.
They have 14 drones and no tech. They can't double expand at all, they can barely expand just once, and even if they did, it won't be long after you expand yourself before you're knocking at their natural with immortals and gateway units. Watch the replay I posted.
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On February 02 2011 14:33 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:29 perptuity wrote: I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble. They have 14 drones and no tech. They can't double expand at all, they can barely expand just once, and even if they did, it won't be long after you expand yourself before you're knocking at their natural with immortals and gateway units. Watch the replay I posted.
This. If they expand, it will take them a ridiculous amount of time to even get TWO bases saturated, nevermind double expanding
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this build is extremely easy to counter
to counter this build you should start up warpgate tech but do not use any chronoboosts on warpgate tech. instead have 2 gateways and keep using your chronoboosts on the gateways to pump out more units before the roaches arrive
if you scout a zerg going 14-17 workers roach/ling rush you can seriously just beat it with a standard 4gate, or 2gate robo or 2gate stargate
this is VERY easy to beat
if you wanna see how to beat this i could even play a game with you and i will be protoss and you can be zerg and i will just use a standard build and beat this
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On February 02 2011 14:17 Lamabot wrote: Since you invested into heavy warpgate count, it was in your best interest to close off the wall completely once you started to see you don't have enough sentries to hold it. Additional units after walloff is broken could have perhaps held it off.
This is essentially what I see as well. This is sort of a "Great wall of Hong Un" situation without the voidray, for anyone who saw that.
You scouted a missing hatch a 4:40, which is later than what you would see out of a regular speed first expand. This is when you should have more or less known some rush was coming. At that point, you had a worker lead 22:14, 1 gateway up and 1 gateway warping in. by the time the rush hit and your delay tactics (sentries) gave way, it was 5:40. you had warpgates finished, 455 minerals banked, and a worker lead of 24:14. (I'd have to go back and check, but I think you also dropped an extra gateway in the middle of your base. It could have been used on the wall.)
I think the best, and probably only solution, is to wall off with additional gateways. You could have dropped 3 more by the time your sentries ran out of FFs, though it'd be best to wall off as needed instead of in advance. If you can Keep them up while also building a small army, you can easily defend the push and counter for the win. You had almost twice his economy, and could have easily sacrificed the extra minerals for more gateways. It takes lings + 3 roaches a very long time to kill gateways, even longer if you keep making sentries.
The only problem I see with this defense is that you're likely to lose your core before you can repel the push, and you'll need ranged units to hold it. Even then, it's not really too much trouble to build an extra core instead of a gateway to reinforce the wall.
Alternatively you could finish the wall with a forge and reinforce with cannons (stop mining gas). This is a weaker choice, as you were already mostly saturated on minerals, and cannons are worthless after you defend.
Hold the push at any cost, and you've probably secured a win. If you absolutely have to pull your probes, do it sooner so you can plug the hole and not get surrounded.
I'm not saying I would have held the push, but it looks doable to me.
On a side note, sentries outrange roaches.
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On February 02 2011 14:33 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:29 perptuity wrote: I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble. They have 14 drones and no tech. They can't double expand at all, they can barely expand just once, and even if they did, it won't be long after you expand yourself before you're knocking at their natural with immortals and gateway units. Watch the replay I posted.
........ if he pulled all 14 drones to mine, stuck 10+ speedling + 3 roaches outside ur base, ur cybercore would not be out untill at least 6mins since normal time is 4, if u cancel build forge+ cannon, it's almost 2 more mins, so warp gate wont be out till 7+, then u need to warp atleast 2 round of units to even think abt walking out since all the lings and 3 roaches......... and if u want immortal, that will take even longer.................that gives zerg 4-5 mins to drone up SAFELY and I dont see the need to go on.....
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this build is totally beatable, save CB for units while you tech to warpgate. protoss complaining about pressure vs zerg, now I've seen it all.
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im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol
did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those
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huh...
Well, now I feel like I've been working too hard for my ZvP wins .
Ok, so, just some theorycrafting here, and admittedly I play Zerg not Protoss...
First Option: I wonder if it would work to delay a probe a bit after scouting the roach den and get a second gate. As a previous poster mentioned, your 1 gate vs his injected hatch is a tough matchup unless you can manage to perma-forcefield your ramp. The problem is, zealots are made worthless by a bit of micro from the zerg player, and also being outnumbered. Stalkers just aren't powerful enough, and I don't know if you would have enough gas to get stalkers and sentries. Getting a fast stalker to get rid of the spotting overlord would be nice, but I don't think it would help as much as we need to hold this off.
All that leaves is sentries, and I doubt you have enough gas income to make a second gateway worth it for sentries.
That said, you were very close to getting another sentry and being able to potentially hold this off. If you scout a roach warren and ling speed, one crono boost on a sentry could give you that extra bit of time (and energy) that you need.
Second Option: I understand why getting a forge is horrible here. But you may have to do it. Considering the Zerg spent a drone and 150 mins on the roach warren, that doesn't really kill you. Then, you need to send a probe out to his base at 4:30 to look for roaches en route to your base. His ling speed isn't done yet, so you should be able to scout for a while before losing the probe, and hopefully either see it coming or delay it.
If/once you see it, my suggestion would be to wall off with another gate, get a cannon up, delay with the forcefields you have to let cannon(s) finish, and make stalker/sentry. Your income is greater than his, and once warp finishes, you're in a much more comfortable place. His mention of baneling busting seems a bit wierd. Though he did continue mining gas after the 176 for ling speed + 3 roaches, if he needs to baneling bust a hard wall (gate-core-gate), that requires him to build a baneling nest (which is 50 seconds IIRC) and 13 banelings just to take out your wall. I feel like in that amount of time/wasted resources to take out your wall, you would be in the favorable position.
But again, I've never used this or had it used on me, pure theorycrafting here.
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On February 02 2011 13:41 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 Tantaburs wrote:On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. if you knew it was coming then why did you not build cannons because the matchup is retarded if i have to blindly get cannons every game vs zerg? i wanted to try to stop it without cannons.
I love how you make a thread saying it's impossible to stop, but then say you just don't want to make cannons.
QQ more.
Or did you miss the part where 4Kmonk and several other good P tell you what to do?
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On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol
Oh?
On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either.
Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem.
On February 02 2011 14:43 perptuity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:33 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:29 perptuity wrote: I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble. They have 14 drones and no tech. They can't double expand at all, they can barely expand just once, and even if they did, it won't be long after you expand yourself before you're knocking at their natural with immortals and gateway units. Watch the replay I posted. ........ if he pulled all 14 drones to mine, stuck 10+ speedling + 3 roaches outside ur base, ur cybercore would not be out untill at least 6mins since normal time is 4, if u cancel build forge+ cannon, it's almost 2 more mins, so warp gate wont be out till 7+, then u need to warp atleast 2 round of units to even think abt walking out since all the lings and 3 roaches......... and if u want immortal, that will take even longer.................that gives zerg 4-5 mins to drone up SAFELY and I dont see the need to go on.....
Cybercore comes before 5 minutes; check my replay. All of what you just said is pointless because you'll be on one base fully saturated with tech and multiple gateways. Who cares if he expands? Who cares if he drones up? He'll have less drones and less tech than he would have if he simply made a 14 hatchery and droned, which is completely standard PvZ - either way you wind up ahead.
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Low masters SEA here The build from the roach looks really formidable, i think it would be autowin against standard gate core opener from toss who tries to go 3 gate to stop it. But 1 thing i notice from that build is that, you can completely scout it, because his roach warren timing comes up before lings, and first and foremost, the probe scout now needs to hang around the zerg base a bit longer to confirm that he is going for this build
Secondly, I tested it out, while doing the standard gate core opener, once you scout it, cut probes (still ahead a bit on worker count) and drop a forge asap then cannons, while chronoing the single gateway. The cannons should just start warping in as the units reach your base. 1 Forcefield, then 1 pylon block should buy enough time for 2-3 cannons to warp in to break the push. On close rush though this might be slightly more brutal, but yep, this build have to be absolutely scouted and a forge right after cybercore asap is needed to stop it
The zerg however is in no way crippled if he pulls back once the cannons warp in though, he can just expo, the game proceeds as normal. This looks brutally powerful. His lings roach can deny you from expoing for a pretty damn long time until your warp tech + 2 additional gates kick in for 2 cycles, while he can expo right away after he sees your cannons finish warping in. Man this build, really impressive
edit for grammer
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Why are forced cannons so bad? Isn't forced spine crawlers the standard in PvZ?
I guess Forge is a tech-path you don't want to go down while pool is a forced tech path anyway.
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2:57 Zerg puts down Roach Warren 3:23 1 pair of lings hatch 5:06 the first 3 Roaches arrive at the front of your base
Forge takes 45 seconds to build. Photon Cannon takes 40 seconds to build.
you can have a photon cannon up by 4:22+
don't really see why you think this Zerg cheese is impossible to stop. you just never scouted for it and pulled your drone out of his base when the spawning pool finished.
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On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol
did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those
Care to tell me what was wrong with my post? It sounds like you're just set on the idea that it's impossible and ignoring everything to the contrary.
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On February 02 2011 13:22 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:21 confusedcrib wrote: This seems like a roach rush with mass lings behind it. I know no one says this or does this, and I'm just a 2700 diamond, but if you go gateway, robo, gateway and chrono out your first immortal, it pops out just as the roaches are hitting your front, the hard part is the zerglings, but perhaps sentry control is the answer, but you can have an immortal out on time. Try testing that out dude, ur so wrong, there is no way in hell the immortal would be out even close to in time
very true, i'veface this before even on Steppes of War. except he did a 9 roach rush like literally roach warren at 9. basically what yo uhave to do is get 2 gate stalkers + wall off with anything you can even if its probes.
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On February 02 2011 14:58 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol
did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those Care to tell me what was wrong with my post? It sounds like you're just set on the idea that it's impossible and ignoring everything to the contrary.
Its completely stoppable, the guy was bsing you. This build is extremely easy to stop if scouted, is completely all in, and there is no transitioning out of it that won't leave the toss player ahead even if he dropped cannons.
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On February 02 2011 14:19 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. Show nested quote +hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax? Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win.
Agreed. A lot of Zergs will instantly throw down a spine crawler when their expo finishes (or sooner and then walk it down to the expo). Not to mention the 5+ spine crawlers that go down when a 4 gate is spotted. It's silly that these guys are so appalled at getting static defenses to survive an all in.
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On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem.
my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me.
If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge?
also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core?
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Yeah if you go standard 3-gate sentry expand you are dead in the water vs that. It does seem easy to scout though since he doesn't even make lings first to chase out your probe before he throws down his roach warren which is obviously super early. You can throw down a forge and make cannons but it's that all-in that you'll come up ahead in the scenario, i.e. he can make the warren but then continue drone production since he sees your reactions via his overlord.
So the best response I can think of is a complete wall-off (gate/gate/core), not making a sentry but actually going stalker first since your sentries are useless in that scenario. And of course chrono your warpgate tech. I don't even think you need to cut probes (just go 1 gas) and this way you should be able to whittle down their army before he can take down your wall. Maybe make 1 sentry with your first round of warp-ins to protect your wall if it is in danger of going down. The timing is probably very tight on Steppes though. If anybody wants to practice this against me PM me.
I think the trick w/ the build is that it throws a pool down at 12, so it's not like you can react with an earlier gate. That combined with your warpgate tech, if constantly chrono'ed, finishes at ~5:45, so the build has time to do some serious damage before warpgate is done. So it very well could be that you have to focus on getting earlier gates and chrono'ing out units instead of trying to rush to warpgate tech.
edit: Looking at the timings a bit more closely I think rushing warpgate tech isn't viable vs this. The optimal way seems to cut probes at 18 and don't make a zealot to get down 2 gates ASAP, which should be up with your core around 4:10 or so. You can them chrono out 3 stalkers, with 3 more on the way when it hits your front door. That combined with walling in with gate/gate/core should hold this. The optimal build to counter this I think is probably the fast double stalker build, but you would have to do it blind since he tosses his roach warren down right around the time you would toss your core down.
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and btw, i said in my original post it was stoppable with cannons. so yeah if u blindly run ur probe in the second their pool comes in, i guess looking only for this exact build (thats the ONLY thing u could possibly be looking for and before this happened i didn't even know about this build), then yeah u can probably scout it. and then u can immediately put down a forge and stop it. but then every other time u just lose ur probe to lings because u ran it into their base.
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On February 02 2011 14:58 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol
did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those Care to tell me what was wrong with my post? It sounds like you're just set on the idea that it's impossible and ignoring everything to the contrary.
My main contention is that it's irrational to chrono units instead of research, in preparation for a rush which may or may not ever come. Obviously if you 100% know a rush is coming from the start of the game, you can devote yourself to beating it. But that's not really a reasonable way to think of strategies.
I still think this is a beatable rush, even from the point where he knew some rush was coming (about 4:40). See my post on page 5 for details.
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On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core?
Uhh the timing of hte build revolves around not getting lings so you can completely scout the warren. You didn't even try. Besides, no expansion, he went early pool early gas, low drone count, all of this in conjuction should alert you of an ALL IN, and therefore you should prepare to defend as such.
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On February 02 2011 15:02 fraktoasters wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:19 morimacil wrote:Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax? Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win. Agreed. A lot of Zergs will instantly throw down a spine crawler when their expo finishes (or sooner and then walk it down to the expo). Not to mention the 5+ spine crawlers that go down when a 4 gate is spotted. It's silly that these guys are so appalled at getting static defenses to survive an all in.
it's completely different. does a 1base zerg who goes for fast units EVER need to put down static defense? no, no they don't.
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On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core?
That's a good argument, except I didn't go in and scout it at the perfect time, it was already half-way finished. Second, how will I lose my probe if he's making late lings and only two of them? I think it's pretty common to keep scouting their base with your probe if they're going pool first with gas - in fact, you're supposed to check to see when they take their drones off of gas.
You won't put down a forge if you don't scout the warren, but once again, why would you not scout it? Even if you scout last you'll get there with plenty of time to scout it. I started a zealot because his pool was finished and I 'didn't know' if he was making quick lings. I suppose it wasn't necessary, but ultimately it wasn't relevant to what I did.
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On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol
did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those
Star2 is far more accessible than Star1/BW and because of this anyone who can win a bronze league game thinks they know better than you and knows how to counter every single build in the game. Its what I've started to come to expect from the Star2 forum sections.
Anyway, staying on topic: Not sure what else I could say that hasnt already been said. Either drop a forge and 2 cannon when you see roach warren or one of the other builds already mentioned. Maybe cut a few probes and save chrono for more units. Going to have to show this build to my Zerg friend who whine about 4gate.
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On February 02 2011 15:07 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? Uhh the timing of hte build revolves around not getting lings so you can completely scout the warren. You didn't even try. Besides, no expansion, he went early pool early gas, low drone count, all of this in conjuction should alert you of an ALL IN, and therefore you should prepare to defend as such.
look, i just told u why i didn't run my probe into his base. as for not having an expansion, the timing of a normal expansion after 6lings with speed is late enough that i wouldn't be able to get a forge in time. it's absolutely hilarious for me to get a forge because i don't see an expansion RIGHT AWAY and then i build 2 cannons and all he's made is 6-8 speedlings and drones
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On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:43 perptuity wrote:On February 02 2011 14:33 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:29 perptuity wrote: I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble. They have 14 drones and no tech. They can't double expand at all, they can barely expand just once, and even if they did, it won't be long after you expand yourself before you're knocking at their natural with immortals and gateway units. Watch the replay I posted. ........ if he pulled all 14 drones to mine, stuck 10+ speedling + 3 roaches outside ur base, ur cybercore would not be out untill at least 6mins since normal time is 4, if u cancel build forge+ cannon, it's almost 2 more mins, so warp gate wont be out till 7+, then u need to warp atleast 2 round of units to even think abt walking out since all the lings and 3 roaches......... and if u want immortal, that will take even longer.................that gives zerg 4-5 mins to drone up SAFELY and I dont see the need to go on..... Cybercore comes before 5 minutes; check my replay. All of what you just said is pointless because you'll be on one base fully saturated with tech and multiple gateways. Who cares if he expands? Who cares if he drones up? He'll have less drones and less tech than he would have if he simply made a 14 hatchery and droned, which is completely standard PvZ - either way you wind up ahead.
Saw ur replay, Firstly, I m sorry. I think ur right, if u see a early roach warren, do forge then cyber core....it seems to be a very good way to handle that build, since this way, ur cyber is only delayed by 150 mineral( but normally cyber goes down soon as gate is done, would you then cancel or have a little delayed forge, would cannon be up in time)
any way, that build seems to be good, and does not stand in the way of toss's progress as much as i thought it would. If zerg does not attack after seeing cannons) and opt for more eco build, based on the warpgate timming + robo timming I have to admit, toss would not be behind.
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On February 02 2011 15:07 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? That's a good argument, except I didn't go in and scout it at the perfect time, it was already half-way finished. Second, how will I lose my probe if he's making late lings and only two of them? I think it's pretty common to keep scouting their base with your probe if they're going pool first with gas - in fact, you're supposed to check to see when they take their drones off of gas. You won't put down a forge if you don't scout the warren, but once again, why would you not scout it? Even if you scout last you'll get there with plenty of time to scout it. I started a zealot because his pool was finished and I 'didn't know' if he was making quick lings. I suppose it wasn't necessary, but ultimately it wasn't relevant to what I did.
it's normal to go sacrifice ur probe in hopes of catching something like drones coming off gas or a longshot roach warren? cuz it's not what I see on streams. it seems like a kind of big deal to lose ur probe for nothing(which is what will happen almost every time)
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On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core?
I think the game is evolving and there is no choice but to sac the probe to ensure this build is not happening. Once mainstream zerg catch up onto this that will probably be a standard for toss to scout.
But I do have an issue with wolf saying this attack is an all in. It really isnt. Those units at the bottom actually delays the toss expo by so long that its not funny. An early forge + 2-3 cannons = super delayed additional gates. You have no way of moving down til additional gates kick in. Meanwhile, the zerg stops at 14 drones for the 3 roach + 10 lings timing attack. His overlord by your ramp sees all. If he sees cannons starting to warp, he stops reinforcements, uses next round of inject for drones, then expos and pull drones off gas. If his OL spots no cannons, he just continue to reinforce with lings and autowin right there
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On February 02 2011 15:06 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:58 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol
did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those Care to tell me what was wrong with my post? It sounds like you're just set on the idea that it's impossible and ignoring everything to the contrary. My main contention is that it's irrational to chrono units instead of research, in preparation for a rush which may or may not ever come. Obviously if you 100% know a rush is coming from the start of the game, you can devote yourself to beating it. But that's not really a reasonable way to think of strategies. I still think this is a beatable rush, even from the point where he knew some rush was coming (about 4:40). See my post on page 5 for details.
You know it's coming because the Zerg can't stop you from scouting it. Just like in ZvZ you're supposed to stick around with your ol for a few extra seconds after pool finishes to check if he's throwing down a fast baneling nest/roach warren, you're supposed to stick around in Z's base with the probe if you see a pool/gas build. You need to know whether he's pulling drones off gas or doing something funky.
Check the replay, Travis could easily have scouted the roach warren. It didn't matter much in this case because he thought it was coming anyway, but there's really no way for Z to stop the scout unless he delays his roach warren.
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On February 02 2011 15:12 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:06 Omnipresent wrote:On February 02 2011 14:58 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol
did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those Care to tell me what was wrong with my post? It sounds like you're just set on the idea that it's impossible and ignoring everything to the contrary. My main contention is that it's irrational to chrono units instead of research, in preparation for a rush which may or may not ever come. Obviously if you 100% know a rush is coming from the start of the game, you can devote yourself to beating it. But that's not really a reasonable way to think of strategies. I still think this is a beatable rush, even from the point where he knew some rush was coming (about 4:40). See my post on page 5 for details. Check the replay, Travis could easily have scouted the roach warren. It didn't matter much in this case because he thought it was coming anyway, but there's really no way for Z to stop the scout unless he delays his roach warren.
ur right about zerg not being able to stop u from scouting it, but i actually didn't know what it was coming until i saw he never took an expansion (which i think in itself is very useful information and i will never find out if he actually just made some lings and kills my scouting probe and then contains me at my ramp)
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He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made.
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On February 02 2011 15:11 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:07 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? That's a good argument, except I didn't go in and scout it at the perfect time, it was already half-way finished. Second, how will I lose my probe if he's making late lings and only two of them? I think it's pretty common to keep scouting their base with your probe if they're going pool first with gas - in fact, you're supposed to check to see when they take their drones off of gas. You won't put down a forge if you don't scout the warren, but once again, why would you not scout it? Even if you scout last you'll get there with plenty of time to scout it. I started a zealot because his pool was finished and I 'didn't know' if he was making quick lings. I suppose it wasn't necessary, but ultimately it wasn't relevant to what I did. it's normal to go sacrifice ur probe in hopes of catching something like drones coming off gas or a longshot roach warren? cuz it's not what I see on streams. it seems like a kind of big deal to lose ur probe for nothing(which is what will happen almost every time)
If he goes gas first, you don't have to sacrifice the probe to see if he's pulling the drones off gas since he's going to want to pull them the instant the pool finishes, giving you enough time to get out before the lings hatch. Of course in this case it's a bit harder since he went pool first, but 13 pool 12 extractor is already pretty funky, so I think it's well worth it.
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On February 02 2011 15:11 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:07 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? That's a good argument, except I didn't go in and scout it at the perfect time, it was already half-way finished. Second, how will I lose my probe if he's making late lings and only two of them? I think it's pretty common to keep scouting their base with your probe if they're going pool first with gas - in fact, you're supposed to check to see when they take their drones off of gas. You won't put down a forge if you don't scout the warren, but once again, why would you not scout it? Even if you scout last you'll get there with plenty of time to scout it. I started a zealot because his pool was finished and I 'didn't know' if he was making quick lings. I suppose it wasn't necessary, but ultimately it wasn't relevant to what I did. it's normal to go sacrifice ur probe in hopes of catching something like drones coming off gas or a longshot roach warren? cuz it's not what I see on streams. it seems like a kind of big deal to lose ur probe for nothing(which is what will happen almost every time) You should be looking at larva count when you go in his base. When you only see one pair morphing, why would you not stick around to check other things, such as a roach warren, speed research, drones being pulled off gas, etc.? The amount of larva being morphed is a big clue to what you should do. Even if he were morphing 3 pair of lings, you can still stick around for a few seconds to see if he pulls drones from gas.
And yes, scouting information is everything. If you aren't sure on something, you should always check imo!
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On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote: my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me.
If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge?
also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core?
This is pretty funny.
Choice 1: Lose one probe and gain scouting information that will lead you to victory. Choice 2: Keep 1 probe, lose the game because of a lack of scouting information.
Travis: Losing scouting probe is unreasonable.
Hahaha.
It's not unreasonable. If zerg has not expanded between 15-20~ food; I would be willing to sacrifice a scouting probe to see what they are teching to, if not delay it.
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On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made.
GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded
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On February 02 2011 15:08 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:07 ch33psh33p wrote:On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? Uhh the timing of hte build revolves around not getting lings so you can completely scout the warren. You didn't even try. Besides, no expansion, he went early pool early gas, low drone count, all of this in conjuction should alert you of an ALL IN, and therefore you should prepare to defend as such. look, i just told u why i didn't run my probe into his base. as for not having an expansion, the timing of a normal expansion after 6lings with speed is late enough that i wouldn't be able to get a forge in time. it's absolutely hilarious for me to get a forge because i don't see an expansion RIGHT AWAY and then i build 2 cannons and all he's made is 6-8 speedlings and drones
I don't understand what you're saying here. You're saying that if you keep your probe outside his base at his natural (to stop an expansion I assume), and don't check his base, you won't see the warren in time, and therefore won't have time to put down a forge? Well why aren't you scouting his base? Do you never scout in case they are six pooling? Or going quick banelings? His warren goes down before he has any lings even building, and if he waits to kill your probe, then his rush is far later, and it's no longer powerful.
You don't need to add a forge because you don't see an expansion right away, once again, here's the timing:- 2:55 roach warren goes down.
- 5:00 until roaches are at your base.
That's more than two minutes to scout, and respond. All you need is 90 seconds - that means you could fuck around with your probe for 30 seconds because you scout and they will still warpin in time.
On February 02 2011 15:11 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:07 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? That's a good argument, except I didn't go in and scout it at the perfect time, it was already half-way finished. Second, how will I lose my probe if he's making late lings and only two of them? I think it's pretty common to keep scouting their base with your probe if they're going pool first with gas - in fact, you're supposed to check to see when they take their drones off of gas. You won't put down a forge if you don't scout the warren, but once again, why would you not scout it? Even if you scout last you'll get there with plenty of time to scout it. I started a zealot because his pool was finished and I 'didn't know' if he was making quick lings. I suppose it wasn't necessary, but ultimately it wasn't relevant to what I did. it's normal to go sacrifice ur probe in hopes of catching something like drones coming off gas or a longshot roach warren? cuz it's not what I see on streams. it seems like a kind of big deal to lose ur probe for nothing(which is what will happen almost every time)
Travis, his warren goes down before any zerglings are even making. There's literally no threat in his entire base. Second of all, you don't have to sacrifice anything, you bring the probe in, and you see he's making a pool and he has a gas, when he makes lings, you can leave if you want. Off of creep the lings are too slow to catch and kill your probe unless you try to continuously micro it around in his base. That's all irrelevant though because he cannot stop you from seeing his warren, and if he waits until the 2 lings pop out he's sacrificing the power of his rush.
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On February 02 2011 15:11 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:07 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? That's a good argument, except I didn't go in and scout it at the perfect time, it was already half-way finished. Second, how will I lose my probe if he's making late lings and only two of them? I think it's pretty common to keep scouting their base with your probe if they're going pool first with gas - in fact, you're supposed to check to see when they take their drones off of gas. You won't put down a forge if you don't scout the warren, but once again, why would you not scout it? Even if you scout last you'll get there with plenty of time to scout it. I started a zealot because his pool was finished and I 'didn't know' if he was making quick lings. I suppose it wasn't necessary, but ultimately it wasn't relevant to what I did. it's normal to go sacrifice ur probe in hopes of catching something like drones coming off gas or a longshot roach warren? cuz it's not what I see on streams. it seems like a kind of big deal to lose ur probe for nothing(which is what will happen almost every time) Is it normal? No. It might become normal if this build is popularized, though. However, i think that the warren before lings means that it will be obvious when someone isn't using this build.
Regardless, it has been disproven that this build is impossible to defend against. Cannons stop it, even if it costs a probe and you are stuck with static defenses.
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I sac an overlord every game at 5:30-:45. You should have your probe sitting at the expansion and by ~17 food, in a normal zerg build, he would have lings ready to clear your pylon/probe blocking it. What I see most Protoss players do is immediately build a pylon when my lings arrive and send the probe back into my main to scout around.
I don't see this as some sort of huge unacceptable deviation. Yes your probe might die, whoop dee fucking doo. If you do that every game you lose 50 minerals and save yourself another -10 points because you would have then scouted his roach warren.
If you want to be super gosu, you could build the hatch blocking pylon earlier and hide your probe in some cute little corner and then scout him at a specific time each game so you know he wont be able to just delay putting down his roach warren until your probe has left.
if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me.
I am forced to sacrifice an overlord every game which usually doesn't tell me jack, but sometimes gives me a heads up about an impending 4 gate. I also lose probably 200 minerals in zerglings sent to scout throughout a 15 minute game, and then an overseer at some point because changlings are a piece of shit. I don't really see the problem here.
Either way, this post makes me smile that there is a zerg out there cheesing the fuck out of the ladder with the oldest build in SC2.
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On February 02 2011 15:11 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:07 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol Oh? On February 02 2011 14:30 Salv wrote:To dispel any myth that you cannot get a forge in time without planting it before scouting, I played a game with SuperiorWolf on the same map, and we even spawned the same positions. Superiorwolf does the exact same build, and all I do in response is add a forge, and three cannons. I have vastly superior economy, and I get a robotics soon after to scout with an observer. I even planted the forge when the roach warren was halfway finished. Replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133862-2v2-protoss-zerg-metalopolisThe only thing that can possibly be argued is that once they stop your probe, they can theoretically try to drone up and expand, and that somehow this gives them a lead - however I wouldn't be convinced of that either. Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? That's a good argument, except I didn't go in and scout it at the perfect time, it was already half-way finished. Second, how will I lose my probe if he's making late lings and only two of them? I think it's pretty common to keep scouting their base with your probe if they're going pool first with gas - in fact, you're supposed to check to see when they take their drones off of gas. You won't put down a forge if you don't scout the warren, but once again, why would you not scout it? Even if you scout last you'll get there with plenty of time to scout it. I started a zealot because his pool was finished and I 'didn't know' if he was making quick lings. I suppose it wasn't necessary, but ultimately it wasn't relevant to what I did. it's normal to go sacrifice ur probe in hopes of catching something like drones coming off gas or a longshot roach warren? cuz it's not what I see on streams. it seems like a kind of big deal to lose ur probe for nothing(which is what will happen almost every time)
Welcome to sacing units for scouting information.
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On February 02 2011 15:17 SecondChance wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote: my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me.
If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge?
also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? This is pretty funny. Choice 1: Lose one probe and gain scouting information that will lead you to victory.
umm, except it won't every time they aren't doing this build. and it won't even lead u to victory it will just let u stop it. but yeah if thats what i need to do then that's what i need to do
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On February 02 2011 15:06 travis wrote: and btw, i said in my original post it was stoppable with cannons. so yeah if u blindly run ur probe in the second their pool comes in, i guess looking only for this exact build (thats the ONLY thing u could possibly be looking for and before this happened i didn't even know about this build), then yeah u can probably scout it. and then u can immediately put down a forge and stop it. but then every other time u just lose ur probe to lings because u ran it into their base.
If Zerg doesnt sack an overlord at the correct time for scouting they could easily die to a fourgate/dts/void rays if Protoss is walled off. The alternative to that sacrifice is blindly countering everything with spines and fast lair tech, which is as absurd as throwing down a blind forge.
Having to risk a probe for the sake of intel is not exactly what most people think of when they think of a broken matchup. Nobody knows the full implications of this new all-in just yet, but it'll get figured out quickly. I wouldn't panic just yet.
EDIT: Yeah everyone just already said all this. NEVERMIND
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On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth.
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On February 02 2011 15:19 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:06 travis wrote: and btw, i said in my original post it was stoppable with cannons. so yeah if u blindly run ur probe in the second their pool comes in, i guess looking only for this exact build (thats the ONLY thing u could possibly be looking for and before this happened i didn't even know about this build), then yeah u can probably scout it. and then u can immediately put down a forge and stop it. but then every other time u just lose ur probe to lings because u ran it into their base. If Zerg doesnt sack an overlord at the correct time for scouting they could easily die to a fourgate/dts/void rays if Protoss is walled off. The alternative to that sacrifice is blindly countering everything with spines and fast lair tech, which is as absurd as throwing down a blind forge. Having to risk a probe for the sake of intel is not exactly what most people think of when they think of a broken matchup. Nobody knows the full implications of this new all-in just yet, but it'll get figured out quickly. I wouldn't panic just yet.
Good points, but you don't even need to sacrifice the probe as I explained above :p. Your point stands though.
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On February 02 2011 15:18 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:17 SecondChance wrote:On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote: my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me.
If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge?
also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? This is pretty funny. Choice 1: Lose one probe and gain scouting information that will lead you to victory. umm, except it won't every time they aren't doing this build. and it won't even lead u to victory it will just let u stop it. but yeah if thats what i need to do then that's what i need to do Stopping a Zerg who has 14 drones when you have 23 isn't a victory, sure. It will almost certainly lead to one.
Saccing OL's to get information is a time-honored strategy for Zerg. The similarities between this build and a 4gate are actually quite surprising.
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On February 02 2011 15:17 Salv wrote: Travis, his warren goes down before any zerglings are even making. There's literally no threat in his entire base. Second of all, you don't have to sacrifice anything, you bring the probe in, and you see he's making a pool and he has a gas, when he makes lings, you can leave if you want. Off of creep the lings are too slow to catch and kill your probe unless you try to continuously micro it around in his base. That's all irrelevant though because he cannot stop you from seeing his warren, and if he waits until the 2 lings pop out he's sacrificing the power of his rush.
so i suppose i should keep the probe in the base a little longer(until the very last second). i do like to try to delay an expansion though, but i'll admit i don't even know the timings on it.
and lings can catch probes just fine, it just takes a long time to get them down so if u have a head start yes u will probably get away. im sure u know this though.
so basically in short the conclusion is that to stop this build it's important to keep scouting zerg main until very last second?
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I really hate to sound like village troll here but I can't help being cynical anymore but this is the perfect example of how downhill this forum has gotten over the last few months.
16k poster with creditability has a genuine rep of a fucked up build AND MENTIONS that it can be beaten with cannons but he can't figure out if he can with gateways. So then every silver/gold league player who saw the thread's first few sentances instantly replies without watching rep saying 'hey i never lose to this rush i chrono my sentries' or 'Hey u kno u can just build cannons to win rite'....
Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times...
Cmon guys.
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This has probably been stated before and I have not seen the replay yet but I´m guessing it all depends on map size.
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On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth.
Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP.
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On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP.
You should have just Ctrl+v'd your tagline into this post here...
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On February 02 2011 15:24 Atlare wrote:
Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times...
Cmon guys. I think if you read more than the first page on the thread you would find some compelling arguements as to why he should be doing that.
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FF stops this build pretty hard if you split his army, you reduce his army size while delaying for your army to grow. Of course, this requires precise micro, so its probably better to go with cannons or pylon/gateway block. Also, (using chrono since you scout no expo) Zealot, Stalker, Sentry or Zealot Sentry Stalker is a better army composition if you're prepared to split his army.
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On February 02 2011 15:23 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:17 Salv wrote: Travis, his warren goes down before any zerglings are even making. There's literally no threat in his entire base. Second of all, you don't have to sacrifice anything, you bring the probe in, and you see he's making a pool and he has a gas, when he makes lings, you can leave if you want. Off of creep the lings are too slow to catch and kill your probe unless you try to continuously micro it around in his base. That's all irrelevant though because he cannot stop you from seeing his warren, and if he waits until the 2 lings pop out he's sacrificing the power of his rush. so i suppose i should keep the probe in the base a little longer(until the very last second). i do like to try to delay an expansion though, but i'll admit i don't even know the timings on it. and lings can catch probes just fine, it just takes a long time to get them down so if u have a head start yes u will probably get away. im sure u know this though. so basically in short the conclusion is that to stop this build it's important to keep scouting zerg main until very last second?
You can't delay the expansion much with your probe if he's speedling expanding anyway. He's going to put down his hatch at 20 usually, after his first lings are already out. I mean I guess you can pylon block and delay it for a few seconds, but he's going to make the lings anyway and they'll get that pylon down pretty fast.
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On February 02 2011 15:24 Atlare wrote: I really hate to sound like village troll here but I can't help being cynical anymore but this is the perfect example of how downhill this forum has gotten over the last few months.
16k poster with creditability has a genuine rep of a fucked up build AND MENTIONS that it can be beaten with cannons but he can't figure out if he can with gateways. So then every silver/gold league player who saw the thread's first few sentances instantly replies without watching rep saying 'hey i never lose to this rush i chrono my sentries' or 'Hey u kno u can just build cannons to win rite'....
Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times...
Cmon guys. So when a 16k poster posts a strategy he thinks is unbeatable and gets responses on how to fix it, it's the forum going downhill, but if someone else does it it's stupid QQ?
Teamliquid, from what i've seen, is about finding way to beat a strategy. Can't blame its members for trying to do that.
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On February 02 2011 14:21 .kv wrote: I get with this today as well and went zealot and stalkers in the beginning and still lost...ugh have you tried just chronoboosting your gateway and opt for a sentry first then start the warp gate research?
your first sentry was about 13-17 energy away from having enough energy to cast another FF...this is definitely an all-in from Zerg but the overlord spotting on the top is painful...
I think 3 gate getting the sentries...once you have enough sentries to cast FF you should be fine
---------------
I've been trying other 3gate builds where I go gateway-gas-gas-cyber to get more gas to start warp gate and the sentry at once
I need a Zerg practice partner to see if this build can hold it off
FlatLine.637
NA Server
I'm ~2800 Diamond Protoss
Travis can I hear your thoughts and opinions on my theorycraft on how to deal with this one base attack...and yea I agree...I don't think protoss should heavily rely on a probe to not die when it goes back in and to scout a roach warren...in fact Protoss wants to keep that probe alive as much as possible to scout when he gets his expo and such
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Travis has not responded to my post, do I win? :p
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On February 02 2011 15:28 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:23 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 Salv wrote: Travis, his warren goes down before any zerglings are even making. There's literally no threat in his entire base. Second of all, you don't have to sacrifice anything, you bring the probe in, and you see he's making a pool and he has a gas, when he makes lings, you can leave if you want. Off of creep the lings are too slow to catch and kill your probe unless you try to continuously micro it around in his base. That's all irrelevant though because he cannot stop you from seeing his warren, and if he waits until the 2 lings pop out he's sacrificing the power of his rush. so i suppose i should keep the probe in the base a little longer(until the very last second). i do like to try to delay an expansion though, but i'll admit i don't even know the timings on it. and lings can catch probes just fine, it just takes a long time to get them down so if u have a head start yes u will probably get away. im sure u know this though. so basically in short the conclusion is that to stop this build it's important to keep scouting zerg main until very last second? You can't delay the expansion much with your probe if he's speedling expanding anyway. He's going to put down his hatch at 20 usually, after his first lings are already out. I mean I guess you can pylon block and delay it for a few seconds, but he's going to make the lings anyway and they'll get that pylon down pretty fast.
yeah that's generally exactly what i do. if he tries to go hat before speedlings then my probe is there, if it's speedlings first then i place a pylon and cancel at the last second
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On February 02 2011 15:23 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:17 Salv wrote: Travis, his warren goes down before any zerglings are even making. There's literally no threat in his entire base. Second of all, you don't have to sacrifice anything, you bring the probe in, and you see he's making a pool and he has a gas, when he makes lings, you can leave if you want. Off of creep the lings are too slow to catch and kill your probe unless you try to continuously micro it around in his base. That's all irrelevant though because he cannot stop you from seeing his warren, and if he waits until the 2 lings pop out he's sacrificing the power of his rush. so i suppose i should keep the probe in the base a little longer(until the very last second). i do like to try to delay an expansion though, but i'll admit i don't even know the timings on it. and lings can catch probes just fine, it just takes a long time to get them down so if u have a head start yes u will probably get away. im sure u know this though. so basically in short the conclusion is that to stop this build it's important to keep scouting zerg main until very last second?
Delaying the expansion is really helpful, so I understand that you want to make sure you stop it, but if you're controlling your probe as you go up the ramp, you can quickly double back if he's sending drones. The only way this could hurt you is if the Zerg anticipated this and put a drone near the natural, and then as you up the ramp they make the hatchery. I'm fairly sure InControl, if he's scouting the last position and knows it to be the Zerg, will place a pylon at the natural and then head inside to scout. Worst case scenario, you'll have to cancel, lose 25 minerals, and you'll get your scouting information - not a big loss.
You're right, lings can catch probes, what I mean is, if you head a probe home when the lings pop, the probe will make it back safely.
I would say in conclusion, yes, this build illustrates why you have to scout the Zerg main at least once, and then if they have a gas, you have to scout until the last possible second just in case they are doing something tricky, like this build. I don't think that's an unreasonable request for a high level Protoss player.
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I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble. For anyone thinking that zerg can have 9 workers less than toss, and comfortably sit back, triple expand (only 11 drones left then, less than half of the toss ), and somehow manage to catch up in drones, and make enough units to hold off the toss 4gate, nope, thats not going to happen.
and btw, i said in my original post it was stoppable with cannons. so yeah if u blindly run ur probe in the second their pool comes in, i guess looking only for this exact build (thats the ONLY thing u could possibly be looking for and before this happened i didn't even know about this build), then yeah u can probably scout it. and then u can immediately put down a forge and stop it. but then every other time u just lose ur probe to lings because u ran it into their base.
The way you say this is kinda strange. You "blindly run your probe in"? Well yeah, you run a worker into the opponent's base to check on what he is doing. Its called scouting. Looking for this build. Yes, when you scout, you usually check for specific things. And knowing the cheese helps beat it. And I dont see the problem with losing your probe. If you see him early expand, do something normal, then you scout as normal. If you see him put down an earlier pool, and then not expand when he normally would, you keep the probe around in his base, that way you can either confirm the roach warren, baneling nest, or whatever, or at least you can delay his roach warren by 40 seconds until the lings hatch and he kills your drone. And sure, in that scenario, when you scout an early pool, early gas, no expo, and low amounts of workers, you are forced to sacrifice your probe. Its not very different from sacrificing an overlord for scouting information, appart from the fact that it costs only half as much. And its still well worth it, since it allows you to win the game.
All you are saying really is "I know how to stop this build, but I dont want to have to sacrifice my scouting worker when I see something strange, and then have to adapt to win"
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On February 02 2011 15:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:24 Atlare wrote:
Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times...
Cmon guys. I think if you read more than the first page on the thread you would find some compelling arguements as to why he should be doing that.
I was 2nd in, and also constantly reading this. There is no legitimate gaurantee you can keep your probe in his base for that long OR you could miss the timing if he delays it to screw with you.
There are way too many factors in the scouting pattern to compensate, travis and other have being saying that.
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On February 02 2011 15:29 TNine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:24 Atlare wrote: I really hate to sound like village troll here but I can't help being cynical anymore but this is the perfect example of how downhill this forum has gotten over the last few months.
16k poster with creditability has a genuine rep of a fucked up build AND MENTIONS that it can be beaten with cannons but he can't figure out if he can with gateways. So then every silver/gold league player who saw the thread's first few sentances instantly replies without watching rep saying 'hey i never lose to this rush i chrono my sentries' or 'Hey u kno u can just build cannons to win rite'....
Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times...
Cmon guys. So when a 16k poster posts a strategy he thinks is unbeatable and gets responses on how to fix it, it's the forum going downhill, but if someone else does it it's stupid QQ? Teamliquid, from what i've seen, is about finding way to beat a strategy. Can't blame its members for trying to do that.
there's a question mark in the title for a reason.
On February 02 2011 15:29 evanthebouncy! wrote: Travis has not responded to my post, do I win? :p
I didn't think it would matter if I cut probes unless I was cutting them much earlier to get a 2nd gate down at a ridiculously early time.
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I am not even a good player, so ignore this post if you feel like it, but I think the reasons for your loss are quite obvious.
He executed his build pretty much flawlessly, while you had a lot of unneccessary breaks in your probe production.
He went for maximum early aggression while you went for maximum tech/economy (2 assimilators, only 1 Gate, no forge). You did not adjust your strategy based on what you scouted.
You spent all chronoboost on the warpgate upgrade and even opted to not chrono your units out when his units where literally at your ramp.
You were floating almost 300 minerals and a crapton of gas when his units arrived, while he kept his money very low and constantly reinforced.
Why not try the "get 3 cannons when you spot his early roach warren" idea? If it still doesn't work out, you can send a new replay.
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Ok, i'm not a Protoss player but if you know its coming, do not chronoboost your warpgate technology, you should use that chrono to get out more units.
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I think you have your answer, I have to admit I was slightly rofling when you seemed to suggest sacing a probe wasn't worth being safe in this scanerio (OLs/zergs=hard-knock life/etc), but ya, gotta wait to see what will become of those timings.
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Travis hasnt responded to my ~12 posts in this thread most of which are defending him... I win i think
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On February 02 2011 15:30 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble. For anyone thinking that zerg can have 9 workers less than toss, and comfortably sit back, triple expand (only 11 drones left then, less than half of the toss ), and somehow manage to catch up in drones, and make enough units to hold off the toss 4gate, nope, thats not going to happen. Show nested quote + and btw, i said in my original post it was stoppable with cannons. so yeah if u blindly run ur probe in the second their pool comes in, i guess looking only for this exact build (thats the ONLY thing u could possibly be looking for and before this happened i didn't even know about this build), then yeah u can probably scout it. and then u can immediately put down a forge and stop it. but then every other time u just lose ur probe to lings because u ran it into their base.
The way you say this is kinda strange. You "blindly run your probe in"? Well yeah, you run a worker into the opponent's base to check on what he is doing. Its called scouting. Looking for this build. Yes, when you scout, you usually check for specific things. And knowing the cheese helps beat it. And I dont see the problem with losing your probe. If you see him early expand, do something normal, then you scout as normal. If you see him put down an earlier pool, and then not expand when he normally would, you keep the probe around in his base, that way you can either confirm the roach warren, baneling nest, or whatever, or at least you can delay his roach warren by 40 seconds until the lings hatch and he kills your drone. And sure, in that scenario, when you scout an early pool, early gas, no expo, and low amounts of workers, you are forced to sacrifice your probe. Its not very different from sacrificing an overlord for scouting information, appart from the fact that it costs only half as much. And its still well worth it, since it allows you to win the game. All you are saying really is "I know how to stop this build, but I dont want to have to sacrifice my scouting worker when I see something strange, and then have to adapt to win"
the entire point is that the only thing i would be seeing is this exact timing of roach warren or possibly him taking drones off gas (which may or may not mean something). i suppose it's still worth it, though.
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On February 02 2011 15:31 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:29 TNine wrote:On February 02 2011 15:24 Atlare wrote: I really hate to sound like village troll here but I can't help being cynical anymore but this is the perfect example of how downhill this forum has gotten over the last few months.
16k poster with creditability has a genuine rep of a fucked up build AND MENTIONS that it can be beaten with cannons but he can't figure out if he can with gateways. So then every silver/gold league player who saw the thread's first few sentances instantly replies without watching rep saying 'hey i never lose to this rush i chrono my sentries' or 'Hey u kno u can just build cannons to win rite'....
Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times...
Cmon guys. So when a 16k poster posts a strategy he thinks is unbeatable and gets responses on how to fix it, it's the forum going downhill, but if someone else does it it's stupid QQ? Teamliquid, from what i've seen, is about finding way to beat a strategy. Can't blame its members for trying to do that. there's a question mark in the title for a reason. I was really talking to Altare more than you. IE the forum isn't going downhill because people disagree with you.
So the way to counter this seems somewhat sound. Regardless, it will be tested soon cause i can see this push becoming really popular really quickly.
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On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of your responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestions retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds.
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On February 02 2011 15:29 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:28 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 15:23 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 Salv wrote: Travis, his warren goes down before any zerglings are even making. There's literally no threat in his entire base. Second of all, you don't have to sacrifice anything, you bring the probe in, and you see he's making a pool and he has a gas, when he makes lings, you can leave if you want. Off of creep the lings are too slow to catch and kill your probe unless you try to continuously micro it around in his base. That's all irrelevant though because he cannot stop you from seeing his warren, and if he waits until the 2 lings pop out he's sacrificing the power of his rush. so i suppose i should keep the probe in the base a little longer(until the very last second). i do like to try to delay an expansion though, but i'll admit i don't even know the timings on it. and lings can catch probes just fine, it just takes a long time to get them down so if u have a head start yes u will probably get away. im sure u know this though. so basically in short the conclusion is that to stop this build it's important to keep scouting zerg main until very last second? You can't delay the expansion much with your probe if he's speedling expanding anyway. He's going to put down his hatch at 20 usually, after his first lings are already out. I mean I guess you can pylon block and delay it for a few seconds, but he's going to make the lings anyway and they'll get that pylon down pretty fast. yeah that's generally exactly what i do. if he tries to go hat before speedlings then my probe is there, if it's speedlings first then i place a pylon and cancel at the last second
Yeah I guess that does help a bit, but I feel like the scouting information's more critical.
edit: and on close positions you can delay the speedling expansions by chronoing out a zealot. Really annoying, especially when Z's trying to get away with only making 2 lings, because you have to wait for the larvae.
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On February 02 2011 15:31 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:24 Atlare wrote:
Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times...
Cmon guys. I think if you read more than the first page on the thread you would find some compelling arguements as to why he should be doing that. I was 2nd in, and also constantly reading this. There is no legitimate gaurantee you can keep your probe in his base for that long OR you could miss the timing if he delays it to screw with you. There are way too many factors in the scouting pattern to compensate, travis and other have being saying that.
What? There's absolutely a guarantee you could scout this if you went in the Zerg base - he has to place the warren the second the pool is finished otherwise he sacrifices power in the build. Also, this idea that you're going to be letting your probe die is ridiculous. If you send in a probe and there's no gas and only a pool, then you don't need to stay and keep looking around. You would only stay if they are mining gas, and you want to see what they do with it, quick lair, quick speed, baneling, roach? You want to know these things - if you think it's smarter to be one probe up and lose the chance to not scout these things you're not a good Protoss player.
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United States78 Posts
Should have chrono'd out units instead of the warp gate upgrade. Also should've been walled off. If not this then should've dropped forge with cannons.
Please don't act like this is unbeatable, it's easily stopped.
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On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds.
He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons.
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Those of you saying "23 probes vs 14 drones", it's never so easy versus zerg because of queen mechanic. He will most probably exceed your probe count in the next two inject cycles. If anything, its a marginal disadvantage, which is offset by the fact that he forced you to get a forge + 2 cannons (450 minerals = 9 drones), and delayed your tech/expand significantly. Also more cannons = lower unit count while pressuring.
Counter intuitive as it may sound, I think a forge FE would be the best counter to this build. As a toss who goes fast nexus in always every game versus zerg (on all maps except steppes of war and DQ), I have faced my fair share of all-ins, and mostly defend them decently. I'm a 2700 Diamond toss with about 55% win ratio in all MU, but around 70% vs zerg, so take my low level experience for whatever it is worth.
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will this work on shakuras?
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On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons.
Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis.
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On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis.
So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here..
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On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis.
I still wonder about this. From trying out the timings myself, I felt like chronoing out sentries was enough and obviously if you can get away with not making cannons, that's going to be even better.
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On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here..
He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren.
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I always keep my scout probe around his natural, partially to delay any expo and partially to know if he's expo'ing at all. If nothing is down by 3:45, some stupid one base play is likely coming, and I forge and sack my scout probe in his base to see what might be coming. IOW, this is just a variation of a RR and is dealt with the same way you deal with any cheese: intel.
You can flame me now too
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I played against this rush at least a dozen times in beta and the only way I was able to hold it was to get a forge when I scouted it and pump sentries. Even then it's very possible you will lose if you fuck up your micro or have poor building placement (single pylon powering your gate/cyber exposed to roach fire). I don't really see why people are being so defensive/hostile when a good amount of posts in this thread have been constructive.
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On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP.
You may not have directly insulted people, but your tone, intended or not, has been condescending, holier than thou, and often rude. Appeal to authority, for example, is my least favorite logical fallacy. A lot of the advice given here has been total crap, but a lot of it is reasonable. You don't seem like you've been approaching by this seeking help, just catharsis. That is probably why you got called out.
A lot of people gave you ways to adjust for this strategy with scouting, while adding very little risk. I think it was definitely beatable from the point where you saw his hatch missing (i.e. with no changes to your scouting pattern), and possibly from the point where you saw his forces at you ramp.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 02 2011 14:43 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:17 Lamabot wrote: Since you invested into heavy warpgate count, it was in your best interest to close off the wall completely once you started to see you don't have enough sentries to hold it. Additional units after walloff is broken could have perhaps held it off.
This is essentially what I see as well. This is sort of a "Great wall of Hong Un" situation without the voidray, for anyone who saw that. You scouted a missing hatch a 4:40, which is later than what you would see out of a regular speed first expand. This is when you should have more or less known some rush was coming. At that point, you had a worker lead 22:14, 1 gateway up and 1 gateway warping in. by the time the rush hit and your delay tactics (sentries) gave way, it was 5:40. you had warpgates finished, 455 minerals banked, and a worker lead of 24:14. (I'd have to go back and check, but I think you also dropped an extra gateway in the middle of your base. It could have been used on the wall.) I think the best, and probably only solution, is to wall off with additional gateways. You could have dropped 3 more by the time your sentries ran out of FFs, though it'd be best to wall off as needed instead of in advance. If you can Keep them up while also building a small army, you can easily defend the push and counter for the win. You had almost twice his economy, and could have easily sacrificed the extra minerals for more gateways. It takes lings + 3 roaches a very long time to kill gateways, even longer if you keep making sentries. The only problem I see with this defense is that you're likely to lose your core before you can repel the push, and you'll need ranged units to hold it. Even then, it's not really too much trouble to build an extra core instead of a gateway to reinforce the wall. Alternatively you could finish the wall with a forge and reinforce with cannons (stop mining gas). This is a weaker choice, as you were already mostly saturated on minerals, and cannons are worthless after you defend. Hold the push at any cost, and you've probably secured a win. If you absolutely have to pull your probes, do it sooner so you can plug the hole and not get surrounded. I'm not saying I would have held the push, but it looks doable to me. On a side note, sentries outrange roaches.
I'm sure you'd be more open to some of the ideas talked about here (and more likely to come up with your own) if you were less frustrated about a recent loss.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
Isn't this every toss' suggestion to holding a 4-gate as z?
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On February 02 2011 15:31 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:24 Atlare wrote:
Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times...
Cmon guys. I think if you read more than the first page on the thread you would find some compelling arguements as to why he should be doing that. I was 2nd in, and also constantly reading this. There is no legitimate gaurantee you can keep your probe in his base for that long OR you could miss the timing if he delays it to screw with you. There are way too many factors in the scouting pattern to compensate, travis and other have being saying that.
If he's forced to delay, and even make lings before his warren, that's probably going to screw up the all-in timing because the roaches are delayed, giving you more time for sentries to gain energy and get warped in and thus more forcefields, more time with warp-gate tech...I can't really see how it would work. And of course there's no guarantee you can keep the probe long enough, but you should be able to keep it running about before lings pop out, no?
I don't see why this thread has to become about travis' quality as a poster or the state of TL in general. I'll freely own I'm new to the board and that I'm probably not as good a player as a ton of people on here. But he posted here asking for help, and people are giving their best suggestions; some of them are good, some of them are freaking terrible, and that's just sort of how the internet rolls. Maybe back in the day this place used to be full of nothing but startling insight and intellectual rigour, an enclave of societies elite joined by the common goal of maintaining a noob-free forum....in which case I'm sorry for your loss O.O
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On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren.
You don't even need to see the warren. You forge as a response if zerg doesn't take expo by 4:00, because he is doing a one base play (RR or bling).
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On February 02 2011 15:35 Dice. wrote: Should have chrono'd out units instead of the warp gate upgrade. Also should've been walled off. If not this then should've dropped forge with cannons.
Please don't act like this is unbeatable, it's easily stopped.
I just watched the reps, didn't read the rest of the thread because I assume its mostly whine.
Very hard as Protoss to stop this kind of aggression from Zerg, mainly because you are so vulnerable early. That rush came very fast. It looked very hard to see it coming as well, because of the way its executed, you may or may not see the Roach Warren based on the speedlings/trying to delay the hatch that -should- be going down.
Blind forge against zerg is.. occasionally a good idea, less so this patch than the previous. Forge first aggression can be devastating. It could work, and probably would work to hold the first attack, but he says he will just switch to banes if he sees cannons, so he'll have 3 roaches + loads of banes to break the wall and your force.
Looks hard to stop, I used to have similar problems with a very fast roach rush, much faster then the 5RR.
2300 Diamond Random, take it or leave it.
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On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here..
On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren.
Exactly - there's a difference.
On February 02 2011 15:40 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. I still wonder about this. From trying out the timings myself, I felt like chronoing out sentries was enough and obviously if you can get away with not making cannons, that's going to be even better.
True, if you could get away without cannons than it would be better, but from watching Travis' game, I dont see how that would be possible. If you can post a replay then we can see for sure. I'm entirely open to being convinced that gateways and chronoboosts are the way to go if it's shown to work. Also, it's important to remember that with an overlord, the roaches will be harassing your wall, so simply forcefielding will just keep them from flat-out killing out, and not from doing damage.
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On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. If the easiest and most effecient way to defend this is cannons, he should build some fucking cannons. You could also fully block the entrance with a second gateway and go stalkers and then get blink later, or he could just power out some more zealots and stalkers. Neither of those options are preferable, which is why you make cannons.
*Note that i'm not protoss, so the builds might not be possible. But the point stands.
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It warms my heart to see Protoss struggling to beat an all in from zerg. Fact of the matter is, a zerg all in is very transparent (no way to hide it) and has no real fall back. And this was truly one with no fallback. I'm not going to explain ways of defending this since you Protoss know the answer. I will politely welcome you to hell.
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On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p
Please watch the original replay better. At 5:13 when the roach ling would be coming up your ramp, you have 2 zealot 1 stalker. Your zealots are going to get sniped and then the lings will swarm your stlaker. You could get a sentry out instead of the second zealot, but even then you'd only have 1, as you had 110 or so gas. Your robo bay wasn't even complete yet, so there was no way an immortal would be out in time to actually let you survive the rush.
On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote: That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat.
Not necessarily. They could skip the next rounds of units and build drones instead (there's an overlord at your ramp scouting what you are doing anyways, and you are blind at this point), pulling all drones off gas after you can no longer scout them. At that point, with 24 against 14 + some more drones about to hatch, the difference is not too great, as beyond 16 drones on minerals per base does not lead to a great increase.
Certainly if you cannon, you have to be able to exert mobile pressure, or else you are done. For example vs 7 pool if you just throw down a full block with cannon the moment you see it but then don't build units out of 2 or 3 gateways and threaten to push the zerg, zerg can have ~62 drones on 2 bases by the time your 4 warpgates finish, should you go that. In this case cyber core is already almost done by the time you scout this, so while not so dramatic, your subsequent gateways will be delayed, and zerg can probably be on 2 base with 40ish drones by the time you have any serious warpgate pressure possible - which leads one to tech cheese, not very stable imo.
Of course I don't know how exactly it would play out, just saying that cannons are usually a bad thing if you are going to be on 1 base.
Anyways, as far as holding this without cannon, your probe was alive - so do a poke barely within visual range of a building hatchery when you are about 25 supply (I think that's when zerg speedling expand would put hatchery down), and if you don't scout an expansion, then use all chronos on gateways for sentries (0 chrono on warpgate research), and scout for hidden expansions, going for 4 gate with delayed warpgate but faster sentry.
And, usually if I think that the egg that just started is zerglings, I have about 20 seconds before I need to be leaving his base, in order to possibly keep my probe alive and unseen, since zerglings take 24 ingame seconds to build. In this case, it would've let you spot the roach warren.
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On February 02 2011 15:37 Piledriver wrote: Those of you saying "23 probes vs 14 drones", it's never so easy versus zerg because of queen mechanic. He will most probably exceed your probe count in the next two inject cycles. If anything, its a marginal disadvantage, which is offset by the fact that he forced you to get a forge + 2 cannons (450 minerals = 9 drones), and delayed your tech/expand significantly. Also more cannons = lower unit count while pressuring.
Counter intuitive as it may sound, I think a forge FE would be the best counter to this build. As a toss who goes fast nexus in always every game versus zerg (on all maps except steppes of war and DQ), I have faced my fair share of all-ins, and mostly defend them decently. I'm a 2700 Diamond toss with about 55% win ratio in all MU, but around 70% vs zerg, so take my low level experience for whatever it is worth.
You have to enter a game planning on forge FE in order to counter this though...the hope here is to find ways in which to keep something resembling the standard 3-gate while also staving off the all-in, either by throwing down a forge immediately on scouting the warren or by some other method
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On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren.
Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production.
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On February 02 2011 15:44 Salv wrote: True, if you could get away without cannons than it would be better, but from watching Travis' game, I dont see how that would be possible. If you can post a replay then we can see for sure. I'm entirely open to being convinced that gateways and chronoboosts are the way to go if it's shown to work. Also, it's important to remember that with an overlord, the roaches will be harassing your wall, so simply forcefielding will just keep them from flat-out killing out, and not from doing damage.
I'll see if I can find a decent Z to try this on me. True, I'm not sure how it would work out with roaches harassing your wall because I don't play P and never allin as Z myself. I guess cannons is the safe solution, but I have a feeling gateways should be enough.
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On February 02 2011 15:07 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:02 fraktoasters wrote:On February 02 2011 14:19 morimacil wrote:Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax? Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win. Agreed. A lot of Zergs will instantly throw down a spine crawler when their expo finishes (or sooner and then walk it down to the expo). Not to mention the 5+ spine crawlers that go down when a 4 gate is spotted. It's silly that these guys are so appalled at getting static defenses to survive an all in. it's completely different. does a 1base zerg who goes for fast units EVER need to put down static defense? no, no they don't.
Because they're about to attack and if it fails they lose the game. One base zerg is completely different from one base protoss or terran. They won't need the static defense, because like this build, they will have a bunch of early units and then after that they are SOL. I think you are over reacting to this, you aren't accepting solutions, you are simply upset that there is something early you have to scout for, or lose the game. You're looking for a way to stop it blindly. Yes he is better than me, yes he wins tons of games. But it's because this is a new cheese people do not know how to react to, it isn't THAT powerful, if you know it's coming, because it's so all in.
You can get a forge ahead of time when you scout the early warren, then you can leave your probe somewhere outside his base. Saccing one probe is nothing compared to zerg going for a pool this early. Then when you spot the roaches inc, you can make a complele pylon wall and then put cannons behind it, this will buy you enough time. This way if you are worried that he will fake it and expand, you can use your early forge to FE yourself after you are sure the roaches are not inc.
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I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong?
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On February 02 2011 15:47 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote: He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren. Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production.
This is what I'd really be interested in seeing...
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On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote: I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong?
You move the probe to the natural to block/delay the expansion that should be coming. If you leave your probe in the base he can take his natural and ignore this all in.
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On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote: I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong?
Nothing, and this is what a lot of Protoss are saying. Travis thinks this isn't a good idea because he couldn't block the natural hatchery if the Zerg was going for hat first (not true), and because there's the potential for the probe to die (true).
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On February 02 2011 15:50 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:47 Bair wrote:On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote: [quote]
GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren. Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production. This is what I'd really be interested in seeing...
Zerg is too behind, protoss would be able to 4 gate and win while he is trying to catchup on drones. He doesn't just need to catch up on drones, he needs to drone AND expo to catch up, much further behind than spending three canons.
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On February 02 2011 15:50 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:47 Bair wrote:On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote: [quote]
GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren. Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production. This is what I'd really be interested in seeing...
I have a vague feeling Z's still going to end up behind, but that would definitely be the next thing to test.
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On February 02 2011 15:37 Piledriver wrote: Those of you saying "23 probes vs 14 drones", it's never so easy versus zerg because of queen mechanic. He will most probably exceed your probe count in the next two inject cycles. If anything, its a marginal disadvantage, which is offset by the fact that he forced you to get a forge + 2 cannons (450 minerals = 9 drones), and delayed your tech/expand significantly. Also more cannons = lower unit count while pressuring. If workers are made for the next 2 inject cycles, the zerg will quite simply die to any toss counter attack. In the 80 seconds it takes to do 2 rounds of injects, toss can easily throw down another 3 or so gateways, bringing him up to 5, let warpgate tech finish, and be attacking the front. If zerg wants to do 2 rounds of drones, and 1 of roaches for example, thats 40 seconds for the first one, 40 seconds again, another 40 seconds, so 120 seconds until the larva pops, and then another 30 seconds until the roaches are actually made, thats 150 seconds. 2 minutes and a half. More than enough time for the toss to make 3 gateways and cross the map.
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On February 02 2011 15:52 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote: I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong? Nothing, and this is what a lot of Protoss are saying. Travis thinks this isn't a good idea because he couldn't block the natural hatchery if the Zerg was going for hat first (not true), and because there's the potential for the probe to die (true).
eh no, firstly i said that it's probably what I need to do. secondly, blocking the hat is for hat after pool.. not hat first. i mean obviously i go in his main and scout for a pool and gas
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On February 02 2011 14:56 Nis wrote: Low masters SEA here The build from the roach looks really formidable, i think it would be autowin against standard gate core opener from toss who tries to go 3 gate to stop it. But 1 thing i notice from that build is that, you can completely scout it, because his roach warren timing comes up before lings, and first and foremost, the probe scout now needs to hang around the zerg base a bit longer to confirm that he is going for this build
Secondly, I tested it out, while doing the standard gate core opener, once you scout it, cut probes (still ahead a bit on worker count) and drop a forge asap then cannons, while chronoing the single gateway. The cannons should just start warping in as the units reach your base. 1 Forcefield, then 1 pylon block should buy enough time for 2-3 cannons to warp in to break the push. On close rush though this might be slightly more brutal, but yep, this build have to be absolutely scouted and a forge right after cybercore asap is needed to stop it
The zerg however is in no way crippled if he pulls back once the cannons warp in though, he can just expo, the game proceeds as normal. This looks brutally powerful. His lings roach can deny you from expoing for a pretty damn long time until your warp tech + 2 additional gates kick in for 2 cycles, while he can expo right away after he sees your cannons finish warping in. Man this build, really impressive
edit for grammer
I like your post .. Esesh the part where I can transition and play normally if I decide to pull out... Thank you much.
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Seems like a cheesy all-in build, much like many Terran and Protoss builds, which can be stopped by scouting and reacting to it. Zerg having on or two all-ins which may actually work if not scouted does not break the match up.
Being appalled at the idea of potentially sacrificing 50 minerals for scouting is bizarre, you do understand the Zerg scouting will cost 8 supply, 1 larva at 100 minerals?
People should be less concerned with whether or not they are being insulted, and more concerned with whether or not it's the truth.
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Here are some quick replays of this build. It's pretty nasty, and I think it instawins if they don't scout the roach warren, which is actually quite common if you are able to distract their probe with a fake expo drone.
I pull drones off gas after getting metabolic boost + 75, and when the push hits at ~34 supply you can actually expand.
I threw one in against Terran for good measure.
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Travis in the replay there are very few roaches compared to a pure roach rush, the DPS of roaches is so small that you would probably be able to pump zealots non stop to handle all the lings get a fast forge for +1 attack and a cannon to hold back roaches. the mass zealots can hold back lings as the roaches try to kill them. since zerg units come in waves it seems you'd be able to stem the first wave or two (except the roaches) and then go for charge or stalkers or sentry while staying alive. i really think that just alot of zealots and 1 well placed cannon can defend your ramp while you are working on either a gimmick shenanigan or a solid gateway army. Gimmicks would be DTs while holding off the rush with zealots your gas is free, void ray (similar). but the strong option would be zeal sentry with charge or blink stalkers. I think it'd be a little tense but with some good micro on your ramp vs the lings you could hold out.
EDIT: also pure zealot does an excellent job of pressurign a zerg FE if they DO do that, and so you'd be able to at least put some pressure on Z by playing it safe.
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On February 02 2011 15:54 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:52 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote: I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong? Nothing, and this is what a lot of Protoss are saying. Travis thinks this isn't a good idea because he couldn't block the natural hatchery if the Zerg was going for hat first (not true), and because there's the potential for the probe to die (true). eh no, firstly i said that it's probably what I need to do. secondly, blocking the hat is for hat after pool.. not hat first. i mean obviously i go in his main and scout for a pool and gas
So can we say this build has been debunked? We know of at least one safe way to deal with it?
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2400 master so not really your level, but I do play random and p is my best race.
Great Wall of HongUn at your ramp is probably the answer. This build is super all-in for the zerg. If you stop it, even with significant losses, you win. I would start building shit to block my ramp while chrono boosting stalkers out behind the wall to pick away at the lings. If you can stall long enough to get a voidray out you win.
Still, that is very powerful and his timing is precise. His BO is super tight and he even accounts for the fact that the lings can catch up to the first 3 roaches even if built after.
I could not stop that BO that well executed, but maybe you can.
Edit: After reading more of the thread, I think that blocking with buildings (and more and more buildings) that are fat but cheap (like gates) while rushing out a voidray is probably better than going for a forge and cannons. Your cannons cannot pick themselves up and attack him. As has been stated before, if the zerg is smart and pulls back, he can expo right away and be on par (if not ahead) of you econ wise... If you get a single voidray out you win.
The question is... can you stall that long? Depends on the map, I suppose, but with good FF placement it should be possible.
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On February 02 2011 15:45 Dali. wrote: It warms my heart to see Protoss struggling to beat an all in from zerg. Fact of the matter is, a zerg all in is very transparent (no way to hide it) and has no real fall back. And this was truly one with no fallback. I'm not going to explain ways of defending this since you Protoss know the answer. I will politely welcome you to hell.
I AGREE DALI!!! hahah burn toss lol jokes .. Welcome to our 4gate!!
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On February 02 2011 15:52 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:50 MajorityofOne wrote:On February 02 2011 15:47 Bair wrote:On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote: [quote] You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren. Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production. This is what I'd really be interested in seeing... I have a vague feeling Z's still going to end up behind, but that would definitely be the next thing to test.
Dopplewalk 362. Add me and we can give it a try. Currently running the build through the optimizer. Once it spits out a few possibilities I will be up for some testing.
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your conversation at the end of the replay annoyed me.
zergs complain because toss has many builds that require specific responses. You just scouted and made a sentry expecting 15 seconds to save the day. Maybe if you needed 15 seconds to get out something that could kill him, sure, but you just got out another sentry to waste everyones time for ANOTHER 15 seconds. A zerg one base all in that works, it's so unlikely that people can't stomach the thought of preparing in a suboptimal way to hold it off. (welcome to the life of a zerg)
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I always get a Forge if I don't see an expo go down by the 3:30min mark.
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On February 02 2011 16:03 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:54 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:52 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote: I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong? Nothing, and this is what a lot of Protoss are saying. Travis thinks this isn't a good idea because he couldn't block the natural hatchery if the Zerg was going for hat first (not true), and because there's the potential for the probe to die (true). eh no, firstly i said that it's probably what I need to do. secondly, blocking the hat is for hat after pool.. not hat first. i mean obviously i go in his main and scout for a pool and gas So can we say this build has been debunked? We know of at least one safe way to deal with it?
yes i will admit that there seems to be a timing in which u are able to scout the roach warren and then u can prepare with cannons, or possibly something else (im not sure about that though). and thank god for that.
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United States7483 Posts
Most of the arguments for explanations for what Travis could have done here are making a huge assumption that Travis has attempted to warn you of, but I don't think he's done the best job explaining it. You all assume that if he scouted the roach warren timing and what the zerg has, that he would always be able to perfectly deduce what zerg intends to do, and that zerg cannot change their mind based on what he sees either. Yes, if he scouts it, instantly decides what the build is going to be and throws down a forge and cannons, and zerg follows through he can defend it. But, if zerg decides to hatch instead and Travis threw down the cannons, he's boned. If zerg makes the units, then decides to not commit to the push and drones up while containing, the match might play standard from there but I'd guess zerg might be ahead, due to getting the extra base up and how fast you can drone.
I would suggest that your best bet with this would honestly be, after you are certain it is coming, to just delay with buildings at your wall and to get a stalker. Force field your ramp as much as you can and delay with buildings, and pull a few probes when it's time to fight them.
Reactionary it's pretty hard to stop this, although there are various planned builds out before hand that could blind counter this, like a 2 gate zealot rush or a forge fast expand.
I'm curious as to whether you could get voidrays out in time if you went one gate > cyber > stargate > other gates, and chrono boosted the stargate.
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On February 02 2011 16:05 Let it Raine wrote: your conversation at the end of the replay annoyed me.
zergs complain because toss has many builds that require specific responses. You just scouted and made a sentry expecting 15 seconds to save the day. Maybe if you needed 15 seconds to get out something that could kill him, sure, but you just got out another sentry to waste everyones time for ANOTHER 15 seconds. A zerg one base all in that works, it's so unlikely that people can't stomach the thought of preparing in a suboptimal way to hold it off. (welcome to the life of a zerg)
the difference is zergs can stop any build with units. and im oh so sorry i offended u mr zerg. do u notice how the zerg player laughs when i say that, he didn't seem offended did he? ur not gonna see me complaining about zerg even after this, because now i know how to deal with it. what's the excuse that zergs have?
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On February 02 2011 15:52 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:37 Piledriver wrote: Those of you saying "23 probes vs 14 drones", it's never so easy versus zerg because of queen mechanic. He will most probably exceed your probe count in the next two inject cycles. If anything, its a marginal disadvantage, which is offset by the fact that he forced you to get a forge + 2 cannons (450 minerals = 9 drones), and delayed your tech/expand significantly. Also more cannons = lower unit count while pressuring. If workers are made for the next 2 inject cycles, the zerg will quite simply die to any toss counter attack. In the 80 seconds it takes to do 2 rounds of injects, toss can easily throw down another 3 or so gateways, bringing him up to 5, let warpgate tech finish, and be attacking the front. If zerg wants to do 2 rounds of drones, and 1 of roaches for example, thats 40 seconds for the first one, 40 seconds again, another 40 seconds, so 120 seconds until the larva pops, and then another 30 seconds until the roaches are actually made, thats 150 seconds. 2 minutes and a half. More than enough time for the toss to make 3 gateways and cross the map.
Dude, everything is not so black and white. As long as you have your lings at the bottom of his ramp, you can see his army move out and decide how to use your next batch of larva appropriately. As long as there is no imminent threat you can throw down an expand get a couple of spine crawlers up. Its definitely winnable and not "all-in" as you claim it to be. And guess what, the same units that you made to attack can be used to defend, as long as you didnt suicide them into the cannons and knew how to pull back.
The term all-in is just abused in these forums I swear.
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I hope this ends up being a build buster, although it doesn't look like it.
Honestly though, if we're looking at this VERY objectively....
Z cuts workers at 14, puts all his economy into Army production.
P continues to make probes, doesn't build any units, loses to attack.
I think it's good that there's finally a definitive weakness to a 1z wall though.
You can't just go full econ and be secure while you chrono the shit out of WG anymore.
Also, is there a reason you didn't scout his pool or warren? (You said you knew it was coming so I guess that's why).
Assuming you scouted it before, just use your 3rd chrono on your WG instead, nd you'd have 3 stalkers by the time your FF's go down.
If we're speaking strictly reactionary here:
1WG chrono is going to give you 10 more seconds (I'm sure you know this)
I don't think you need to invest in a pylon that's going to prevent your probe maynarding and inhibit your own mobility.
You scout his early pool, and I think it would be the conservative play here to use your 3rd chrono on your WG instead of your nexus.
As I discussed in this thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179604
The 3rd chrono nets you only about 60 minerals over the following 3 minutes, and so if you can trade 60 minerals for 10 seconds on your WG, I think that's probably the key in this fight. It's more conservative and will allow you to beat this timing. Granted, most of the time you're going to scout a 14g/14p build (and this is close enough that you may have trouble distinguishing it), that just means that most of the time now, you're going to have to give that 3rd chrono to your WG instead of your econ.
One can argue that you could have stayed to spot the warren, but he could have simply delayed it by 3-5 seconds and that doesn't really help you enough to warrant the death of your worker.
TL;DR After scouting him and seeing the gas/pool build, just opt to use your 3rd chrono on your WG instead of your probes.
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On February 02 2011 16:07 Whitewing wrote: Most of the arguments for explanations for what Travis could have done here are making a huge assumption that Travis has attempted to warn you of, but I don't think he's done the best job explaining it. You all assume that if he scouted the roach warren timing and what the zerg has, that he would always be able to perfectly deduce what zerg intends to do, and that zerg cannot change their mind based on what he sees either. Yes, if he scouts it, instantly decides what the build is going to be and throws down a forge and cannons, and zerg follows through he can defend it. But, if zerg decides to hatch instead and Travis threw down the cannons, he's boned. If zerg makes the units, then decides to not commit to the push and drones up while containing, the match might play standard from there but I'd guess zerg might be ahead, due to getting the extra base up and how fast you can drone.
I would suggest that your best bet with this would honestly be, after you are certain it is coming, to just delay with buildings at your wall and to get a stalker. Force field your ramp as much as you can and delay with buildings, and pull a few probes when it's time to fight them.
Reactionary it's pretty hard to stop this, although there are various planned builds out before hand that could blind counter this, like a 2 gate zealot rush or a forge fast expand.
I'm curious as to whether you could get voidrays out in time if you went one gate > cyber > stargate > other gates, and chrono boosted the stargate.
I now used this build 5 times against protoss, all of them have been literally SMASHED trying to go 3warpgate.
Yes, people have placed forges(in reaction), but I break the wall before their cannon(s) is placed.
The key is keeping the initial(only) 3 roaches alive, and your 20+lings do the rest of the work taking out the stalker/sentries.
but to answer this quote, if he goes fast stargate, you can only Chrono a pheonix out. I'm at your door in 5:00 with 3 roaches and 16 speedlings.
Unless you go straight stargate I don't see the voidray coming out before I break the wall.
The only direct counter I can see to this is 1base forge contain (LOL wut)
But then I park my units outside your base and FE and win.
Every game I win with this strat reminds me of all those times I've had a line of zealots warped in when I 15 hatch.
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On February 02 2011 16:07 Whitewing wrote: Most of the arguments for explanations for what Travis could have done here are making a huge assumption that Travis has attempted to warn you of, but I don't think he's done the best job explaining it. You all assume that if he scouted the roach warren timing and what the zerg has, that he would always be able to perfectly deduce what zerg intends to do, and that zerg cannot change their mind based on what he sees either. Yes, if he scouts it, instantly decides what the build is going to be and throws down a forge and cannons, and zerg follows through he can defend it. But, if zerg decides to hatch instead and Travis threw down the cannons, he's boned. If zerg makes the units, then decides to not commit to the push and drones up while containing, the match might play standard from there but I'd guess zerg might be ahead, due to getting the extra base up and how fast you can drone.
I would suggest that your best bet with this would honestly be, after you are certain it is coming, to just delay with buildings at your wall and to get a stalker. Force field your ramp as much as you can and delay with buildings, and pull a few probes when it's time to fight them.
Reactionary it's pretty hard to stop this, although there are various planned builds out before hand that could blind counter this, like a 2 gate zealot rush or a forge fast expand.
I'm curious as to whether you could get voidrays out in time if you went one gate > cyber > stargate > other gates, and chrono boosted the stargate.
I'm not 100% on this because I never open VR, but I think the timing is too late.
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Voidray wont come out before you break 1 wall... but if you build another wall behind it, it might.
How many of you know what I'm talking about when I say "great wall of HongUn"? I'm refering to the game where HongUn holds off a super all-in from Fruitdealer by continually rebuilding his wall. Granted, this was done off two bases, so I'm not sure if you'd have enough income to keep building the wall off 1 base...
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On February 02 2011 16:10 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:07 Whitewing wrote: Most of the arguments for explanations for what Travis could have done here are making a huge assumption that Travis has attempted to warn you of, but I don't think he's done the best job explaining it. You all assume that if he scouted the roach warren timing and what the zerg has, that he would always be able to perfectly deduce what zerg intends to do, and that zerg cannot change their mind based on what he sees either. Yes, if he scouts it, instantly decides what the build is going to be and throws down a forge and cannons, and zerg follows through he can defend it. But, if zerg decides to hatch instead and Travis threw down the cannons, he's boned. If zerg makes the units, then decides to not commit to the push and drones up while containing, the match might play standard from there but I'd guess zerg might be ahead, due to getting the extra base up and how fast you can drone.
I would suggest that your best bet with this would honestly be, after you are certain it is coming, to just delay with buildings at your wall and to get a stalker. Force field your ramp as much as you can and delay with buildings, and pull a few probes when it's time to fight them.
Reactionary it's pretty hard to stop this, although there are various planned builds out before hand that could blind counter this, like a 2 gate zealot rush or a forge fast expand.
I'm curious as to whether you could get voidrays out in time if you went one gate > cyber > stargate > other gates, and chrono boosted the stargate. I now used this build 5 times against protoss, all of them have been literally SMASHED trying to go 3warpgate. Yes, people have placed forges(in reaction), but I break the wall before their cannon(s) is placed. The key is keeping the initial(only) 3 roaches alive, and your 20+lings do the rest of the work taking out the stalker/sentries. but to answer this quote, if he goes fast stargate, you can only Chrono a pheonix out. I'm at your door in 5:00 with 3 roaches and 16 speedlings. Unless you go straight stargate I don't see the voidray coming out before I break the wall. The only direct counter I can see to this is 1base forge contain (LOL wut) But then I park my units outside your base and FE and win. Every game I win with this strat reminds me of all those times I've had a line of zealots warped in when I 15 hatch.
oh ho ho, but didn't u read so many of the replies? this build is easy to stop!
but clearly i am just dismissive for not listening to those people or saying they don't know what they are talking about.
anyways it's stoppable yes. but it's ridiculously ridiculously powerful.
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On February 02 2011 16:13 farseerdk wrote: Voidray wont come out before you break 1 wall... but if you build another wall behind it, it might.
How many of you know what I'm talking about when I say "great wall of HongUn"? I'm refering to the game where HongUn holds off a super all-in from Fruitdealer by continually rebuilding his wall. Granted, this was done off two bases, so I'm not sure if you'd have enough income to keep building the wall off 1 base... by far the most rediculous thing done in sc2 and could only ever be beaten in crazy defense if the same happened in BW because of how buildings wall off you'd have to memorize every possible wall in for every situation just to keep up.
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On February 02 2011 16:13 farseerdk wrote: Voidray wont come out before you break 1 wall... but if you build another wall behind it, it might.
How many of you know what I'm talking about when I say "great wall of HongUn"? I'm refering to the game where HongUn holds off a super all-in from Fruitdealer by continually rebuilding his wall. Granted, this was done off two bases, so I'm not sure if you'd have enough income to keep building the wall off 1 base...
If this build is executed correctly (I pull the 3 drones off gas after I get 75 for the initial 3 roaches)
I'm expanding while wrecking his base. if he continuously builds his wall over and over, I know #1 his probes are stuck at 22, #2 his army is fairly small, #3 my army can just pull back and I'll be safe, his tech will be behind save maybe a stargate, and I'm droning like mad+queening up before he can mass a counter attack. He has to kill his wall before doing so though LOL.
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On February 02 2011 16:06 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:03 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:54 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:52 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote: I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong? Nothing, and this is what a lot of Protoss are saying. Travis thinks this isn't a good idea because he couldn't block the natural hatchery if the Zerg was going for hat first (not true), and because there's the potential for the probe to die (true). eh no, firstly i said that it's probably what I need to do. secondly, blocking the hat is for hat after pool.. not hat first. i mean obviously i go in his main and scout for a pool and gas So can we say this build has been debunked? We know of at least one safe way to deal with it? yes i will admit that there seems to be a timing in which u are able to scout the roach warren and then u can prepare with cannons, or possibly something else (im not sure about that though). and thank the TeamLiquid.net community for that. Credit where credit is due...
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This thread was a joke right? Only as Protoss would you be able to get to masters without being able to solve the problem of how to stop the rush that was revealed when the probe was still in his base.
User was warned for this post
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On February 02 2011 16:15 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:13 farseerdk wrote: Voidray wont come out before you break 1 wall... but if you build another wall behind it, it might.
How many of you know what I'm talking about when I say "great wall of HongUn"? I'm refering to the game where HongUn holds off a super all-in from Fruitdealer by continually rebuilding his wall. Granted, this was done off two bases, so I'm not sure if you'd have enough income to keep building the wall off 1 base... If this build is executed correctly (I pull the 3 drones off gas after I get 75 for the initial 3 roaches) I'm expanding while wrecking his base. if he continuously builds his wall over and over, I know #1 his probes are stuck at 22, #2 his army is fairly small, #3 my army can just pull back and I'll be safe, his tech will be behind save maybe a stargate, and I'm droning like mad+queening up before he can mass a counter attack. He has to kill his wall before doing so though LOL. Not quite.
If you pull back he can cancel his wall at minimal mineral loss and his void is still coming out which is going to cause much pain. Once the void is out, a phoenix can be boosted out next, which can not only be annoying wiht overlords, but cna pick up a queen while the voidray kills it. Once the 2nd phoenix is out you'd be 100% boned because hydras are NOT coming anytime soon and off 1 hatch you wont have enough queens.
Yes this forces the protoss all-in, but it's a potential response.
22 probes is more than enough for 1 stargate constant production and that's all he needs.
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[/QUOTE]
oh ho ho, but didn't u read so many of the replies? this build is easy to stop!
but clearly i am just dismissive for not listening to those people or saying they don't know what they are talking about.
anyways it's stoppable yes. but it's ridiculously ridiculously powerful. [/QUOTE]
It's equally as powerful as 2rax or 4-5scv+marine pressure vs zerg who 14g14p or 15hatch14pool.
it's not unbeatable, just as building a blind baneling nest will help in zvt, but it's pretty annoying.
needless to say, I'm riding the pleasure train. guys who "gl hf ^_^" then ragequit just make me lol.
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actually why am I even replying to you
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On February 02 2011 16:09 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:05 Let it Raine wrote: your conversation at the end of the replay annoyed me.
zergs complain because toss has many builds that require specific responses. You just scouted and made a sentry expecting 15 seconds to save the day. Maybe if you needed 15 seconds to get out something that could kill him, sure, but you just got out another sentry to waste everyones time for ANOTHER 15 seconds. A zerg one base all in that works, it's so unlikely that people can't stomach the thought of preparing in a suboptimal way to hold it off. (welcome to the life of a zerg) the difference is zergs can stop any build with units. and im oh so sorry i offended u mr zerg. do u notice how the zerg player laughs when i say that, he didn't seem offended did he? ur not gonna see me complaining about zerg even after this, because now i know how to deal with it. what's the excuse that zergs have?
Uh... a spine crawler is pretty standard for a few things. It's definitely not viable to try and stop 2rax without one.
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Oh I played you today. and that guy too.
Man, the moment you see the roach warren and the pool twitching, just slam a 2nd gateway down and chrono shit out. All it takes is for you to be smarter with your probe scout.
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On February 02 2011 16:21 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:09 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 16:05 Let it Raine wrote: your conversation at the end of the replay annoyed me.
zergs complain because toss has many builds that require specific responses. You just scouted and made a sentry expecting 15 seconds to save the day. Maybe if you needed 15 seconds to get out something that could kill him, sure, but you just got out another sentry to waste everyones time for ANOTHER 15 seconds. A zerg one base all in that works, it's so unlikely that people can't stomach the thought of preparing in a suboptimal way to hold it off. (welcome to the life of a zerg) the difference is zergs can stop any build with units. and im oh so sorry i offended u mr zerg. do u notice how the zerg player laughs when i say that, he didn't seem offended did he? ur not gonna see me complaining about zerg even after this, because now i know how to deal with it. what's the excuse that zergs have? Uh... a spine crawler is pretty standard for a few things. It's definitely not viable to try and stop 2rax without one.
ok ur prolly right i never was even thinking about tvz tbh just pvz
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This is theorycrafty, but could you cut probes to throw down two more gates when you see the Roach Warren building?
From what I gather, the real strength of this build is that it basically hits and breaks through right before warp-gate tech becomes meaningful.
So, the way I see it, if you want to stop it without using cannons, you need to use units, and since you can't take advantage of warpgates, those units need to come out of pre-warpgate gateways, and one gateway clearly isn't enough to stop it.
If you had...say...3 stalkers and a zealots, could you hold it? If you saw the Roach Warren when it was halfway done and immediately responded by cutting probes and throwing down two more gates, then saving up chronoboosts, would the units come out of those two gates fast enough to be of use?
I'll have to show this to a Z practice partner when I log on next time, since I'm mostly just pulling this stuff out of my ass.
Yea, it sucks having to cut probes, but even so, this build is very all-in-y by Zerg, and if you hold it without losing any probes, then you're miles ahead.
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1 zealot 2 stalker instead of 2 sentrys
Or the 4th sentry could have been canceled when you got warpgate tech to get earlier or even get something better to hold... like stalker.
Do it the same way as 7rr harass with stalkers until they reach you to wear the rush down.
Sorry if this was already told.
Also, 1 or 2 more chrono boost on warpgate and you could have 1 extra unit at the push (but less gateway i know)
Thats what i Did when i faced that push.
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Not to offend but I expected better manners from someone with a liquid tag
anyway I'm not on your level (2600 masters) so not sure if my advice will help. But as I think someone mentioned, with this build there is a window toscout the roach warren, and since he basicly has to drop it right after the pool finishes I think there's enough room to see the roach warren and build a forge and couple canons if you see it.
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Are you guys not seeing the big thing with this build? It's using the ovie for high ground sight to snipe the zealot
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On February 02 2011 16:27 hunts wrote:Not to offend but I expected better manners from someone with a liquid tag
where did I have bad manners?
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On February 02 2011 16:30 CellTech wrote: Are you guys not seeing the big thing with this build? It's using the ovie for high ground sight to snipe the zealot
Pretty sure that is standard operating procedure for any roach rush.
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The build is unstoppable. Sacrificing a probe to scout is unreasonable. Making cannons to stop and all-in is unreasonable Having half the amount of workers your opponent has doesnt make you all in Due to larva inject, zerg can always be magically ahead in workers, no matter how far behind they start off. triple expanding off 14 drones vs a toss with 24 probes and warp gate reasearch finishing is viable.
Seems like Im a bit slow, took me over 10 pages to realise Im being trolled -_- mod edit- removing stupid image
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morimacil who are you even replying to? random people in the thread? because i didn't say any of that, lol. other than sacrificing a probe is unreasonable, which i kinda backtracked on
god, why are people so full of shit. how dare i post this and then argue a position. why am i getting so much shit for this from random people who probably are terrible at the game anyways
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@travis
I'm not high in the ladder but off the timing apparent with your replay you would have scouted his gas after pool and lack of expo at 2:30 (about the time you did scout him after catching his ovie and redirecting your 9 scout probe). Since it is clear that a 2ff defense isn't good enough to hold you either need to save your 3rd chrono for warpgate (spent on probe avail@2:15) to get up warpgate JUST before attack arrives . You had 31seconds of non-chrono'd WG research. The 1 extra chrono would cut an additional 10seconds extra off the research time allowing you to have that extra little bit to get out 2 additional sentries before the roach/ling come barreling up your ramp, the window of opportunity is small, but it is there.
Markers the Zerg is doing this build Save 3rd Chrono @2:15 Probe arrives @~2:30 (assuming it is the 2nd base to scout and a 9scout) Extractor finshes @2:30 Roach Warren starts @ 2:55 (this is ofc a pool first build)
You deal with it either by: forgoing your 3rd pylon and dropping a forge(after cyber) and then 2 cannons with a pylon wall off, sentries are still necessary to keep the roach from sniping the pylon so don't stop your gas collection. If you go this route the 3rd chrono shouldn't be necessary to speed up warp-gate since you will only be on 1 gate anyway, instead I would chrono sentries. (this is untested but I'm pretty confident a couple sentries with a 2cannon wall would hold it)
-or-
The 3gate Warpgate defense is afaik the best defense possible since if you are able to hold the attack you can easily expand behind it or counter due to your overwhelming economic advantage. You MUST Chrono Warpgate completely anything less will leave a timing apparent in the replay.
I envision the 3gate defense as such:
Normal gate (13) and cyber (17) timing 2nd gate @26/34* or 4:15 3rd gate @ 29/34* or 4:40 *this should be very close since there was a little downtime in probe production vs. using 1 less chrono on them The second Gate should finish about the same time as WG and be in on your 1st round of WG sentries. Walling off with your 3rd pylon might be a good idea although if it isn't traded for some enemy units will limit your retaliation, the sentries should be sufficient IF your WG & 2nd gas timing is spot on.
The BO: Pylon (9) Scout Gate (13) Gas (14) Cyber (17) Zealot (20) Gas (21) (this is needed no later, and assuming your scout arrives when it does it isn't blind) Pylon (22) Warpgate (22) -you saved your 3rd Chrono right?- Sentry (24) Gate (26) Sentry (29) Gate (29)
WIN
Basic follow up should be to expand and keep pressure so that the zerg cannot drone up. I don't see Immortal as a strong following move since mass ling will deal with your army well already. Get many sentrii (6-8) and pressure the zerg, kill them if they expand with a ramp ff and nat snipe. basically the 3gate 2base timing except that you should have a expo and worker advantage, DO NOT OVERCOMMIT, if the zerg hasn't expanded he should be able to overrun you if you arn't careful with the ff's at this timing.
I could also see a 10gate doing well against this build since you will get up WG sooner but this will bust the quickest 4gate if lacking sentries. This build if done well by zergs up and down the ladder is going to cause absolute havoc for the match-up and have people QQ'ing like 4gate had for every match up since it appears to be very strong. Just speculation but I am pretty confident that 2gate wouldn't work against this build AT ALL because it is pool first and ling speed+queen is quite quick. I am really wondering if this build will filter down the ladder and I am always excited to see some more options for Zerg early against protoss even if it is still a cheese.
EDIT- hope that helps, your build was on the right track just needed a little more refining imo
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On February 02 2011 16:31 travis wrote: [where did I have bad manners?
The way you talked in the replay kinda seemed a bit BM but I guess it's to be expected when someone loses to the same thing 3x in a row.
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On February 02 2011 16:30 CellTech wrote: Are you guys not seeing the big thing with this build? It's using the ovie for high ground sight to snipe the zealot
Eh? This is done in every RR. Or is my sarcasm meter epic fail?
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On February 02 2011 16:35 hunts wrote:The way you talked in the replay kinda seemed a bit BM but I guess it's to be expected when someone loses to the same thing 3x in a row.
what did i say in the replay that was bm? the "what the hell" or "what the fuck?"? that was in response to his lings running right through my guys. wtf was the deal with that, anyways. i was actually pretty good spirited about it considering how frustrating it was.
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On February 02 2011 16:36 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:35 hunts wrote:On February 02 2011 16:31 travis wrote: [where did I have bad manners? The way you talked in the replay kinda seemed a bit BM but I guess it's to be expected when someone loses to the same thing 3x in a row. what did i say in the replay that was bm? the "what the hell" or "what the fuck?"? that was in response to his lings running right through my guys. wtf was the deal with that, anyways.
You units can sense tilt and they start to rebel.
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I'd like someone to post a replay of a Protoss holding this push without having to lose probes.
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10 gate could work, but having to open 10 gate every game in case the Zerg is doing this is a little unreasonable.
Also, when deciding how to beat this, you have to assume that you can't attack the overlord from your platform, even with stalkers. A well-positioned overlord will be un-attackable while still having sight up the platform, and having an overlord within attack range of a stalker would be the Zerg player's mistake, so dealing with the overlord isn't really the answer here.
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Worked first time for me. Opponent went Zealot Stalker and killed off my overlord but didnt help him.
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btw, im very appreciative to people who actually seriously discussed the game and what to build / what to do without being sarcastic or sidetracking or being a dick. im even a little appreciative to the ones who didn't know what they were talking about.
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-sacrifice units (for nothing) -get (possible) useless units/buildings -get your scouting denied -get steamrolled if you have guessed wrong -ultra tight timings that decide to die/not to die -being behind no matter what
That sounds like a pretty normal Zerg day since day 1 of SC2.
Im obviously a Zerg player that said the only tip I can give you is: if you smell something fishy like no expansion throw down your forge and at least 1 cannon even when you get behind if hes not rushing. Although Im 100% sure if this build gets popular (and now it will) there will be a good solution to crush this very hard in no time. I guess starting to wall your ramp with a pylon will be a good point to start from... at least it gives you a few extra seconds.
Last but not least I hope T and P will sooner or later get rid of the mentality to think only they have the right to pressure and dictate where the game is going. Even Blizzard stated this in the last interview with Dustin Browder they will fix this problem with Z at least with the next expansion. I dont really believe it but hope dies last.
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On February 02 2011 16:36 travis wrote: [what did i say in the replay that was bm? the "what the hell" or "what the fuck?"? that was in response to his lings running right through my guys. wtf was the deal with that, anyways. i was actually pretty good spirited about it considering how frustrating it was.
that's true, I just found the imbalance talk i guess "less mannered than ive seen from other liquid guys" but yeha, I'm not here to try and judge or analyse your manners or anything, was just kinda my opinion.
anyway I tried this a coiple times with afriend after reading this and watching that replay. (again I'm not on your level, only 2600) What would basicly happen is his probe would stay around untill after pool finished and would see the roach warren, then either run away or stay and die. But seeing that gave him the signal to make a forge and couple canons at the ramp, and it nullified that attack. Then it would go into a normal game with both of us being behind in econ from me trying to all in like that, and him having to make the forge and canons without it being a forge FE.
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On February 02 2011 16:40 travis wrote: btw, im very appreciative to people who actually seriously discussed the game and what to build / what to do without being sarcastic or sidetracking or being a dick. im even a little appreciative to the ones who didn't know what they were talking about.
classy and XD
im not gonna lie i was a little tilt when i saw that "im not losing that drone damnit!! =O" but otherwise this was a useful thread for me as a Z, and im sure the Ps got something out of it as well. Lets go to bed
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lol.. I think I played this guy's rush.. its the reason I have been changing my old 3 gate expand a bit after getting destroyed by the rush to try to survive it if I face it again.
Some things I have thought of are..
1. 24 supply (22 probe, 1 zealot sentry starts 5 seconds later) 2nd gateway for me which is 4:00. Your 2nd started 4:18 I think.. build a sentry in it.. I think that would get 3rd sentry done at 5:47 with no chronoboost on it. If its chronboosted you can FF ramp again.. then your warp gate tech is done. Cancel sentry from first gate change to warp gate and 2nd.. thats 2 more FF.
2. Earlier 2nd gas so you can start sentry sooner.. cybernetics core was done 10 seconds before you had enough gas.
3. Sentry before warpgate tech and more chrono on sentries... I think would get 3rd sentry from first gate in time to FF after 2nd gates sentry FFs. So that would be 4 FF on ramps without warp gate tech done..
4. Watch tower to scout.. if you see it coming then chronoboost sentries.. Also though maybe to save energy to have 2 chronoboosts possible if needed.
I am pretty sure 1 or 2 of those would work.. I have mainly been doing faster 2nd gas for faster sentry start.. and slightly faster 2nd gate than what I used to do.. havent faced it again so dunno if it would work.
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On February 02 2011 16:36 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:35 hunts wrote:On February 02 2011 16:31 travis wrote: [where did I have bad manners? The way you talked in the replay kinda seemed a bit BM but I guess it's to be expected when someone loses to the same thing 3x in a row. what did i say in the replay that was bm? the "what the hell" or "what the fuck?"? that was in response to his lings running right through my guys. wtf was the deal with that, anyways. i was actually pretty good spirited about it considering how frustrating it was.
Big ups to you for bringing about a discussion on this build. I think the discussion was helpful to alot of us, though I have no freaking idea why people got so touchy
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Like I said if anybody wants to practice the timings with me PM me. I'm pretty sure you can hold it off by going skipping zealot, throwing down 2 gates after you scout early roach warren, and doing a complete wall-off with gate/gate/core. Other than that I'm out of here because the thread is getting derailed.
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I was just playing a game vs the computer (very hard) to see what could be done in that time, when the cpu roach rushed me and did a very similar timing to the replay in the op(no lings though so that is the big question, you may have to pull a 4 or 5 probes for the lings so there is no runby, but I don't think it will put you behind even if they all were to die but you stop the attack) . Warren after pool, with no lings. I pylon blocked his expo (which I always do in pvz, it also would let you know your opponent is not trying to expo in a normal game and give you view of units coming off the ramp) Replay below.
This replay might be the answer Travis. Also note, the followup I use to provide me with a normal expansion timing. This build should be able to keep your ability to expo and counter attack viable, so if the zerg plays an econ game or hides an expo (because of the pylon) you are still fine as toss. Notice as soon as I scout the warren I cut probes, and all my crono goes to gates, and I stay on 1 gas and don't make sentries (although 1 sentry will probably still be fine to buy the 15 seconds to get 2 more units from the gateways out)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133906-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
If you want to try it out, just play the very hard cpu on steppes of war. I'm pretty sure if you pylon block the expo like I did, the cpu will do this rush at the timing we're worried about automatically as a response.
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Ok Travis, here is what you have to do: make forge at 10, wall inn with a nexus, and surround with canons. Its so easy!
On a more serious note though, I have absolutely no idea. Going to spread this replay to some of my clanmates and see if I can work up a solution. And even then it might not help you even in the slightest, seeing as I'm only 2600 master myself.
This only really confirms what I've already had huge troubles with against zerg lately, which is early aggression. It seems that if its not scouted the exact second it happens, and you somehow manage to get a forge and two canons down, there is no way to defend against it.
On a light note, if you can stop this without losing too many probes, you are pretty much ensured a victory, seeing as he's still on one base on 30 food.
EDIT: also, hitboxes on stalkers and sentries seriously need an update. It is practically impossible to block lings with those two units. I dunno how many times I've had 8-9 stalkers crammed into a small opening between gateway and cyber core, and lings still somehow manage to find space to run through..
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On February 02 2011 16:40 travis wrote: btw, im very appreciative to people who actually seriously discussed the game and what to build / what to do without being sarcastic or sidetracking or being a dick. im even a little appreciative to the ones who didn't know what they were talking about.
Hope mine was helpful and not to repetitive, If I shouldn't have went to bed 2hrs ago I would have player through this build a couple times with some friends to see if they could shave the timing down some more as well although it seems in good hands.
The forge/cannon build is likely the safer of the two options I refer to, but I can't think of a good way of following it up other then stargate since baneling/roach will tear through any expo if he faints expanding himself and then all-in's. The choke is sooo important to mitigate the banes. (Although I think the effectiveness of the Stargate is offset if he doesn't go banes and instead techs to lair while holding you contained.)
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On February 02 2011 16:51 Excludos wrote: Ok Travis, here is what you have to do: make forge at 10, wall inn with a nexus, and surround with canons. Its so easy! .
You forgot the part where you carrier rush, and then transition into losing your whole fucking base
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I'm not familiar with timings, but here is a shot Travis:
One question I have is would you scout what he's doing before the completion of the cybernatics core?
Would the probe count you have suffice zealots from two gate, and then you use the zealots to hold the attack off. From there, he probably will stop making lings if enough zealots are presant and retreat the attack. You start the core as soon as you think possible while holding the attack off (if you have the money to make it and have enough lots to hold the ramp), and then build stalkers.
Before stalkers finish, it should be likely he will back off and would it be possible to pump probes, get three stalkers and six zealots, and pressure out while building a expansion.
They will hold their ramp, and you use stalkers to attack roaches that may be present and zealots to take care of any lings on the ramp. Pressure into the main base.
If there are spine crawlers, stay out where the expansion area is for zerg and delay his expansion while you set your expansion up. Reinforce with Sentries/Stalkers/lots, and contain him.
Would some version of that be viable, or would the timings put you far behind and allow the Zerg player to be ahead? Or would there be too many roaches/lings for the small counter-attack force to do anything?
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On February 02 2011 16:53 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:51 Excludos wrote: Ok Travis, here is what you have to do: make forge at 10, wall inn with a nexus, and surround with canons. Its so easy! . You forgot the part where you carrier rush, and then transition into losing your whole fucking base
woosh!
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Why is it unreasonable to sac a probe to scout? zerg is expected to regularly sac OL's worth twice as much, terran at least pays a price for a scan, and you are not willing to sac one probe to avert disaster?!
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A protoss should _always_ make one last lap around the hatchery when z pool is finished before he flees with his probe. That's the most vital timing to scout a Z. You should note the following:
If ling speed starts to upgrade and he pulls all drones off gas. If ling speed isn't being researched immediately, or if he does not pull drones of gas once ling speed upgrade starts, he's usually not going for a normal expand eco build. Either some fast lair build or early roaches.
If a queen starts. If the queen does not start building just as the pool finishes, expect him to place an early hatchery.
If you don't see any eggs morphing or if he saves up larvae. If z has idle larvae and not building drones, he's up to something. You don't have to flee with your probe until ~5 seconds after you see the first egg after spawning pool being morphed.
You could have spotted his roach warren if you were more active with your scouting probe, sure he could have delayed it like 5 seconds. But 5 seconds can be critical in these types of rushes. The biggest tell in this case was however not the roach warren, but the idle larvae. You should always be weary of a rush build when you see unused larvae early on.
As for the attack: when you saw the 3 roaches, you should have mentally gone into "all-in defense mode" and immediately started to cb your gateway instead of your core and be ready to place a pylon/gate when your FF energy runs out to make a ling tight wall-in.
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What makes this work is that Roaches are used for breaking the wall off to enable the run-by, this is aided by the scouting overlord. A pretty interesting strategy really.
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On February 02 2011 16:58 AKA. wrote: Why is it unreasonable to sac a probe to scout? zerg is expected to regularly sac OL's worth twice as much, terran at least pays a price for a scan, and you are not willing to sac one probe to avert disaster?!
my main problem with doing that is that the probe can be super useful later on, and if he gets lings outside ur ramp quick enough ur never gonna be able to get another probe out. but i suppose u could just send a 2nd probe out before lings get there.
also as i said before i kinda backtracked, i suppose it's not that unreasonable
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That's an interesting timing, I don't play PvZ so I won't comment, but I'm intuitively thinking that this may need to be a build where you need to pull probes to defend (probably a ramp cut with FF and packing the ramp - similar to how the old proxy 9rax concussive marauder rush required you to pull probes TvP) if you want to counter it in a non-blind way.
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Also I've tried this build several times vs a practice partner. Its VERY good, theres no doubt. Heres how we figured to stop it w/o knowing to much in advance, but its not pretty:
1) scout that a rush is coming, take an educated guess 2) get sentrys up ASAP 3) the sentrys wont be there in time 4) sac probes to hold wall till senty 5) keep makeing sentry at a rate so the FF never falls 6) hope to god the R1 plat isnt full of shit 7) wish #6 had worked
good luck
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you just don't have to make any mistakes. lol do you even know how hard it its to defend a very good 4gate? you often can't defend it even when you scouted it.... and you start complaining after losing to a zerg rush twice -.-
Like many other said you can easily defend it by: - Seeing his roach warren go up at 3:00 with your probe - Immidiatly throw down a forge - Scout for expansion, if there is none at 3:40 put down some cannons -> cannons are up even before he starts attacking you -> WIN
If he doesn't come attacking (you can scout again with a probe) cancel all but one cannon and forge expand yourself. you a clearly ahead because his build sucks when he doesn't attack. also please stop whining in op and in your games because you lost to a rush... its not good for you and not good for the community :/ stay calm and focused !
not that hard
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On February 02 2011 17:04 TehForce wrote: you just don't have to make any mistakes. lol do you even know how hard it its to defend a very good 4gate? you often can't defend it even when you scouted it.... and you start complaining after losing to a zerg rush twice -.-
Like many other said you can easily defend it by: - Seeing his roach warren go up at 3:00 with your probe - Immidiatly throw down a forge - Scout for expansion, if there is none at 3:40 put down some cannons -> cannons are up even before he starts attacking you -> WIN
If he doesn't come attacking (you can scout again with a probe) cancel all but one cannon and forge expand yourself. you a clearly ahead because his build sucks when he doesn't attack. also please stop whining in op and in your games because you lost to a rush... its not good for you and not good for the community :/ stay calm and focused !
not that hard
The reason your post is both poorly thought out and incorrect is because he could easily just make drones after dropping a warren, and your scenario doesn't preclude the possibility of him just canceling it outright after you leave. You won't get further information due to lings.
Then you've made a forge and cannons with no knowledge of what the zerg is actually doing.
You're right that a forge and 9 cannons is going to stop 3 roaches and 16 lings. It's not cost efficient to do so, and then you're self-inflicting a lot of phantom damage.
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On February 02 2011 17:09 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 17:04 TehForce wrote: you just don't have to make any mistakes. lol do you even know how hard it its to defend a very good 4gate? you often can't defend it even when you scouted it.... and you start complaining after losing to a zerg rush twice -.-
Like many other said you can easily defend it by: - Seeing his roach warren go up at 3:00 with your probe - Immidiatly throw down a forge - Scout for expansion, if there is none at 3:40 put down some cannons -> cannons are up even before he starts attacking you -> WIN
If he doesn't come attacking (you can scout again with a probe) cancel all but one cannon and forge expand yourself. you a clearly ahead because his build sucks when he doesn't attack. also please stop whining in op and in your games because you lost to a rush... its not good for you and not good for the community :/ stay calm and focused !
not that hard
The reason your post is both poorly thought out and incorrect is because he could easily just make drones after dropping a warren, and your scenario doesn't preclude the possibility of him just canceling it outright after you leave. You won't get further information due to lings. Then you've made a forge and cannons with no knowledge of what the zerg is actually doing. You're right that a forge and 9 cannons is going to stop 3 roaches and 16 lings. It's not cost efficient to do so, and then you're self-inflicting a lot of phantom damage.
no offense but this kinda sounds like what zerg has to deal with vs protoss.
imagine how hard this build was if the probe couldn't even get into his base (imagine protoss wall) lol
blind cannons doesn't sound like a bad idea if it keeps you alive, kind of like how we have to blindly make units before the 7:00 mark or drop 3-5 spine crawlers without even knowing if protoss is even going to push (thereby making us waste larva)
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i think that in the rep if the zerg did not have his ovie on your ramp it would be diffferent, what about if he does not have the overlord on your ramp?
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You build a third sentry from the gateway instead of morphing warpgate immediately.
You have the gas to warp in two more sentries and nearly a third, delaying the push significantly. At your own discretion any of those can be stalkers if you truly feel that is what you will need in order to best hold the push. Your first forcefield expire with 4 seconds remaining on warpgate research.
This would be cutting it very close, but manually building the sentry is a mistake regardless at that point.
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After watching the replay... I just had to give this bad boy all-in a try. This all-in is the best ive seen against protoss (IMO stronger than the roach rush). FINALLY a clean cut way to punish religious 4 gaters. Have you tryed stalker then sentry (skipping zelot), or are 6/10 pools common enough to make the zelot mandatory?
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Friend tried it on a 2.9K Masters Toss who has never read this thread and he beat it easily by making some cannons and sentries. Please change thread title to reflect the possible'ness of beating this build. Also, the game was on close position Meta.
EDIT: Question mark?
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the correct answer is obviously early scout and go forge after gate and canons, he's totally allin and 1 or 2 canon holds and u can transition into exp or 4 gate +1. But because you scouted him last you could not go for this.
nevertheless if you're not into this kind of thing, just make a full block and chronboost out units out of 2 gate, no need for 2nd sentry, just units, and pull probes if he brakes the full wall
3200 masters here (and totally trying out this build :D)
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On February 02 2011 17:29 aquanda wrote: Friend tried it on a 2.9K Masters Toss who has never read this thread and he beat it easily by making some cannons and sentries. Please change thread title to reflect the possible'ness of beating this build. Also, the game was on close position Meta.
do you know what a question mark is?
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I'd be curious to see how this would play out on some of the other maps...Scrap station immediately comes to mind and my (poorly) executed vs-computer build put the roach/ling push at the front door at around 5:20. The difference in time likely allows for warp gate to finish, though with the wider ramp i'm not entirely certain how that would work out. (particularly if, as in the OP, the zerg could follow up with banelings, which are a bit more difficult to deal with due to the width of the ramp, and ability to 'bait' FFs with the first roaches...hmm...)
Of course, if the zerg opted to, as has been mentioned, the zerg player could pull the drones off gas after mining enough for the push, put them back on mins, and be able to expand. While this is late, the pressure kind of serves as a game state reset (protoss has been delayed, probably to a lesser extent, if he opts to forge + cannon defense)
So, while in this case it's not all-in, it certainly makes for an interesting building-block to explore and see what can develop from this.
On topic. One thing that came to mind, and may not work out due to the timing, would be the zealot/stalker pressure (with the stalker popping when the zealot is 40-50% of the way there) and how, if at all, that would change the timing/availability of larva for the zerg player. At best, it seems they'd end up dying as speed finished, perhaps delaying the roaches/push for long enough to get WG finished. Zealot/stalker pressure isn't something you particularly want to do against speedling/expand though...bleh. I dunno, these are the thoughts that come to me when i read forums/watch replays instead of sleeping.
Edit: Spelling, prob more mistakes to be edited as I learn to read better.
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Overlords have a sight range of 11. You'll not be able to remove it without moving out from the ramp where the lings will have a field day with anything you got. I imagine that you could possibly drop a pylon near his ramp to force Drones off the line while you start building the forge after scouting the early Spawning Pool. Not elegant, but it can buy you some time if they take the bait... especially if they scouted that you placed a pylon away from the wall.
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finally, zerg have something as cheesy as a 4 gate :/
start with forge, pylon block the ramp and put a cannon or three behind it, autowin vs Z
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Canada13372 Posts
I am not sure about how to deal with this but i feel you should have left a probe at his natural to scout if they are expanding or not. Often when a Zerg doesnt expand by the time you have 20 food as protoss it means they are all ining off of one base. I at this point and realisation cut probes to put down more gateways against Zerg all ins in general and focus my chronoboost on units. I think perhaps the pylon block and stalkers could be the best option but this is difficult since the Z has sooo many more units than you. It truly is a really brutal timing. :/
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Ok just tried and lost a couple of times against that build but i came up with a variation of 3 gate expand that i am 90% sure can hold that The master zerg I was playing agianst went afk so i cant really test it again but it involves probe cut at 20, second gas before first zealot, 1 chrono on gate and 4 chrono on core, as well as intentional food block at 26 to drop 2 additional gates (+ build the third sentry) before dropping a pylon. 2 FFs at ramp, keeping sentries safe from roach snipes from below, before second ff ends, drop a fourth gateway to full wall off as you morph the additional gates and warp in 2 stalker 1 sentry. If he tries to force his way up, FF his forces in half and pick off the lings. Cancel the fourth gate at the last moment after 2 warp cycles and resume macro game with expand
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On February 02 2011 17:39 ZeromuS wrote: I am not sure about how to deal with this but i feel you should have left a probe at his natural to scout if they are expanding or not.
im pretty sure i do go check with a probe. u can't just leave a probe sitting there or the zerg will surely go kill it with lings.
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I watched the replay and your cybernatics core went down right before his roach warren. Also, your probe left right after he started the warren.
Cancel the core, start a second Gateway, and then get two zealots. Build a core, get two more zealots.
By the time his attack comes, the minerals you used for the third gateway with what you did normally instead is used on forces to hold the attack off. Core should finish while you chrono out zealots to deal with mass lings, and have a sentry chrono'ed with the other gate providing zealots.
From there I'm not sure how things would pan out...but if the attack is being held off then forcefield and reinforce army.
Would something like that work ?
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I'm at page 9. It seems to me, the only answer to this is 3 cannons. Which is utter ridiculousness because of the fact that cannons are COMPLETELY immovable. 450 minerals + 150 for a Forge you won't be using for a long while. If we had recyclable Bunkers or Spine crawlers to use at an expansion, this would be completely different.
The fact that we'll be potentially 600 minerals behind at the start, and for all we know they've cancelled the Roach Warren... it FEELS like this is completely broken at first glance.
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Wow. That sure is terrifying. This has been mentioned before but my gut reaction would be that the most efficient way to hold this involves a full wall in with gateway or maybe a second cyber to prevent getting your cyber sniped and some different chrono spending. To the lab!
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so i loaded this up with a friend, and it seems to come down to some reallllyyy thin chronoboosted sentry timings. only ~2.6k diamond, but i feel like that's the only real chance :[
this also relies on close positions to really be effective - cross position on metal sentries should be there in time
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I hope this turns out to be viable in the long run.
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You can´t hold a 4gate without building 1-2 spinecrawlers and completely cutting drone production. Seems fair to me that there are zerg allins that you need cannons against. And the time needed for the roach warren to build, the roaches to build and the roaches slowly crawling to your base is more than enough to get a forge up and build cannons, not even calculating your 2 force fields in.
600 minerals isn´t even that much seeing how you are ahead in worker by like 10. No way any zerg can recover from that.
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WHAT IN GODS NAME IS THIS TOTAL BS. Ahem. So, wdh?
I watched the replay, and first thing I thought was, wow, that's a total load of bull crap, because that came so fast. 5:00 mark, and he's going up your base and you've got nothing to defend.
OKAY WHEW. I did some hard core analysis, with some of the very early gate builds I was trying early on, and I figure I can somewhat defend this, with obvious pulling of a few probes here and there. First thing to note, I get second gas late as hell. 9 pylon 12 gate <- You got 13 gate. Marginal but important? Tbh I doubt it but w/e. 14 assim 16 pylon Barely 17 cyber (or 18 really) 19 gate(cut probes for a moment here) 24 assim
First of all. ROFL on le copter. I know it's a bit weird for you guys, but I was comparing timing with my early gateway, and realized my extra units pop up at 5:20, which coincidentally on that replay, is just the time those speedlings start to arrive at ur base!
So first the build. You get zealot as fast as possible, not messing with cyber timing. Moment zealot finishes, stalker out of the same gateway. You're building second gateway. The 1st gate finishes stalker and 2nd gate finishes at good timings within each other. Build another zealot, and a sentry.
How this build would work: So first of all, here's the units you would have. 2 zealots, a stalker, and a sentry. AGAINST, 12 lings and 3 roaches. Well first thing to say is, kind of ouch? Zealots will clean up lings with a fair amount of decency, in this case you use the ff from your sentry to just split the speedlings, so your zealots should be able to kill like 6 of the lings. 10 probes lead can be used to kill (obviously you don't know this, so a move all probes really..) Would it work?
2 zealots, stalker, sentry (with only 1 ff) 10 probes vs 12 speedlings and 3 roaches. I have to say that's actually a tough call, but I mean even if you barely live you're ahead in tech, and can proceed to faceroll his rushing ass. Besides, most rushers even just quit when their attack fails.
Now in the replay I used as a reference I actually didn't chrono boost anything but the stalker, because I wasn't in any kind of early attack, it was just a 2 gate robo variation I was trying against a 4 gate protoss lol. ANYWAY, timing of when units pop can definitely be enhanced with the chrono boosts. Still wondering if the armies listed above would clash well, and protoss would come out ahead. And note that of course while this is going on, he's sending more speedlings while you're building out of 2 gateways (I believe warp gate tech finishes around this point), and feasibly a 3rd gate if you start cutting the probes.
It's pretty close. Zealot and stalker make do for about 10 seconds facing 3 roaches, until zealot and sentry pops, at which time speedlings come. Pull 10 probes, and its an "interesting" battle. Still, you have the ff on your side and the wall, which dramatically decreases the effectiveness of zerglings. Not sure if you can fend it off, it's a strong push ><"
-- EDIT: So basically I'd like to know. You have high ground, and 1 force field to use. 10 Probes, 1 stalker, 2 zealots, 1 sentry 3 Roaches, 12 speedlings Who wins?
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On February 02 2011 17:53 TearDrop wrote: You can´t hold a 4gate without building 1-2 spinecrawlers
yes... u certainly can.
also, spinecrawlers can move, AND they are being used to protect an expansion, which makes it a ridiculous comparison anyways.
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Canada13372 Posts
On February 02 2011 17:40 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 17:39 ZeromuS wrote: I am not sure about how to deal with this but i feel you should have left a probe at his natural to scout if they are expanding or not. im pretty sure i do go check with a probe. u can't just leave a probe sitting there or the zerg will surely go kill it with lings.
yes he can kill it with lings but its just one probe and knowing that he isnt expanding gives you info. Upon rewatching the replay yeah you did scout with the probe. To me, honestly, I feel that this rush is really just designed to exploit the fact that Protoss needs to tech to cybernetics core and warpgate but this is detrimental because theres only one gateway up and working when this attack comes.
While a forge would help I agree that it isn't realy viable since it does put your tech to stalkers behind and this is a necessary tech to get alongside warpgate research. and cannons are expensive.
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I won't have time to play with this, but it looks fun. And I think it's going to get worse for Protoss before it gets better, too. Looking at the build in the replays, there's a lot of room for faking this. Once this becomes a fairly common occurrence on the Ladder, faking this becomes really easy. Further, I think there might be a faster way to do it. If someone can figure out a branch-point for this in the 11 overpool, 18 hatch build, they could force you to blindly put down a Forge.
This definitely is going to shift PvZ for a while to come, at least on the short-rush distance maps. Or maybe even the normal Forge FE maps (like Shakuras-Cross). As Zerg figure it out more, there's also room for it to become far more deadly.
Oh, and the replays Stomp put up were pretty good. I really loved the 2 rax, 4 marines + 6 SCV rush that saw 3 roachs and went "oh shit", ran back, threw up some bunkers and promptly died. (That's never a bad thing to see!)
Yeah, this is going to change a lot of things.
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OK, I'm just a diamond zerg so you can choose not to take my advice. I will say I've roach rushed a fair bit in my past, and there's one huge difference between this build and a normal roach rush.
The roach warren timing.
This guy throws down his warren at around 2:57, immediately after his pool finishes. He's also making a queen at this point (you can see his hatch wobbling differently so you can confirm this, no reason he wouldn't be making a queen of course).
In a standard roach rush (5RR/7RR) you throw down the warren when the queen is ~75% complete. That gives you time to get lings out and try to deny a scout. From his immediate warren, you can be fairly sure this build is coming; there's no reason to have the warren earlier otherwise.
The next important part is that you definitely could have scouted this earlier warren; it starts just as you tell your probe to leave. Had you scouted around his base for just a couple of seconds, you'd have seen how early his warren was, and there weren't any zerglings coming to stop you for a while yet.
This is where my suggestions start:
1) You definitely could and should have scouted the early warren timing. I understand you were trying to block his hatch, but that's fairly futile against pool first anyway. A speedling expand gets to around 20 supply before expanding with 4 lings, which completely stop any block attempts; at best you'd have delayed his hatch with a pylon for a couple of seconds and lost the probe. Why am I saying this? It's pretty pointless to try and delay the hatch when the pool's already finished, and you don''t lose much by staying in his base after scouting the really fast roach warren.
2) There was literally no danger at all to stop your scout until the roach warren was halfway done. This is when 2 lings pop, which couldn't have killed your probe straight away if you'd run about in his base off creep. You could probably scout his warren getting to about 75% done. At this point, even if it's a fake to trick you and he cancels it after your probe dies, he's lost so much from cancelling and lost mining time that the death of your scouting probe is justified. By staying in his base, you also see he's not building drones, further delaying his econ if he's faking the rush.
3) When the warren is 75% complete, I'd say it's a fairly safe bet he's not faking the build because the lost mining time of the drone and the lost minerals from cancel mean a standard speedling expand would always be better. If he does fake at this point, he's miles behind against standard play. From this point, we can assume he is doing the rush.
4) Let's assume that you see the warren get to 50% and your probe spontaneously combusts as his lings pop (i.e. you can't keep it alive longer than that point). If you put down a forge now, it'll be done by 4:10 and you haven't lost much. He is miles behind on econ (6 harvesters behind, in fact) already and if pressure doesn't work, he's definitely at a massive disadvantage. You can afford to delay a probe and get a forge and still be ahead. Note that this forge isn't blind, it's in response to the roach warren immediately after pool which is 100% scoutable.
5) When your not-blind-forge finishes at 4:10, 2 roaches are at 75% done and 1 is at 25% done and his army consists of 2 lings. He's not a threat until his next round of larvae. 2 roaches pop at 4:19. The next roach finishes at 4:26, and his inject finishes at this point too. He is totally committed to the rush at this point, and I'd go as far as to say at this point he's all in. The roaches arrive at 5:10 ish, which gives you a whole minute to make cannons in preparation of the rush. You can afford 2 cannons just by not making the third gate, which probably isn't going to help too much even after it finishes, especially when you can see his roaches coming. 2 cannons will go a very long way to stopping what this guy did. You can certainly justify making a delayed third cannon if you still feel pressured. At this point you know he has large amounts of lings and 3 roaches (read: not a large amount of drones back home).
Those cannons will win you the game, and even if they don't and he expands, he's massively behind. Even if he solidly makes drones for a few minutes, your econ will be better for a long, long time after holding him off, letting you expand or 1 base-allin (a 4WG response would be strong) him after a couple of minutes when your stronger econ has benefited you and when his heavy drone production hasn't had chance to benefit him yet. His army can't get bigger if he pumps drones, and yours will naturally and at a faster rate because of your econ advantage now.
If he was faking the build, the suggestions that he could double/triple expand are hard to take seriously. If you get fooled and make a forge and 2 cannons, you've spent 450 minerals to be invincible for a good long time and he's got to spend 300 + a drone of which he has very few to make a single, very delayed hatch that won't benefit him for 100 seconds. If nothing attacks you by 5:20, you can safely chrono out a shitload of probes, expand and be miles ahead. He'll have to be mass producing drones because he faked it, meaning no army, meaning a safe expo for p. Alternatively since you have a forge, get a chrono'd +1 attack upgrade and do a timing attack. He's unlikely to have gotten carapace since he'll have had to focus on drone production, so his lings will melt.
Basically, faking this build would be crazy and nearly always leave you behind unless your opponent goes nuts and over produces cannons. The build is strong, but if you drop a forge in response to his early roach warren, you can easily stop it in a similar fashion to how a 6 pool is strong until you scout it and make a complete wall.
Finally, to comment on what he said about needing 3 cannons because of a baneling followup; ignore that, he's miles behind if he has to get to that point, his econ is still trash because he can't feasibly make drones and units at the same time, and you'll have sentries with forcefields to stop him more than likely. If he's had time to get a baneling nest as well, you've had time to hold him off for a while, make a building to wall off, get more units and make more cannons if needed. You can probably even make some probes while doing all this.
Sorry for the massive wall of text As I said you don't need to take my advice.
EDIT: removed TL;DR.
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2.6k terran I'm not sure if this will help too much, but I recognize the roach rush if when at 3:30 he doesn't have an expo. When I see that I send the worker into his base... right clicking the minerals to make sure it'll pass through any attacking units. If he doesn't have expo and he kills my worker I just throw down a scan... Now seeing as how you can't do that, what do you think about throwing down the forge when you scout no expo and then using the cannons to expand on top of that so that you're not behind?
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This is a better variation of a speedling all in that I do a lot against protoss and gives me plenty of free wins (10 gas 11 pool).
Reason for it is that protoss are so used to the "fact" that a wall in with gateway, cybernetics core, and 1 zealot (and really safe, with 1 zealot 1 sentry), makes them completely safe.
So I'm scouted - repeatedly. And I do the same build against the same players two games in a row. Against different players. And still - almost no one throws down a forge then cannons. Even though they see that I am getting ling speed, and have 12 drones. So they have to know that I am going all in pretty much (what else could I do? fake all in and mass drones?).
Then I simply attack move into their base, they throw down a force field, and think that makes th em safe - but when it ends, I just power through.
The proper response to this is cannoning into a forge expand imho, or if you were smart, you threw down a proxy pylon with your scouting drone when you saw it, and then you can cannon up and go normal 4 gate. Which will crush it honestly (move into base with 6 zealots, 2 sentries, force field his ramp so his units cannot get back, and gg when you kill his drones and queen).
You are actually far ahead in economy, so yes, you can afford to throw down forge, 3 cannons, and upgrade +1 melee attack (the variation that makes it very strong against mass ling).
I mean, a zerg sacrifice an overlord to see if it's a strong 4 gate that requires cutting drones and getting spine crawlers (1 gas 20ish probles = oh yeah). That's a stronger rush actually, it's just so well known and have been practiced for months so everyone knows the theory of how to deal with it (static defense on most maps, + cutting drones and a good unit combination).
So to me, this is a strong rush, but it's easily beatable by scouting, and treating it like the rush it is: static defense being key to beating it.
Possible to beat by units? Sure ... but that's just making it harder for yourself. Why would you do it? You will be well ahead by simply getting forge, 3 cannons, and chronoboosting probes or getting tech.
You have to know that when the rush fails, he will mass drones, and expo once, and try to use his units to contain you and stop you from expanding. That means his tech will be really late. DT would be a pretty certain option if you failed to put down a proxy pylon somewhere to kill his base - and it goes well with forge expand since it's so gas heavy.
If anyone wants to practice against this and other types of early zerg all ins on EU as protoss, aebriol.380 - but I am only 2500 master.
I still don't think this is as powerfull as terran 2 rax bunker, or 4 gate (20 or so probes), as far as all ins go, but it's unusual, which makes it hard in itself.
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On February 02 2011 17:55 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 17:53 TearDrop wrote: You can´t hold a 4gate without building 1-2 spinecrawlers yes... u certainly can. also, spinecrawlers can move, AND they are being used to protect an expansion, which makes it a ridiculous comparison anyways.
Though you can transition out of a 4 gate much more easily.
It's going to be impossible for the zerg to recover if the push does no dmg, so the cannons would be well worth it anyway.
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A well executed 4gate, either an offensive one with temporary probe cut @22-23 or a defensive one with zealot, stalker, sentry from 1gate beats this. On close position you probably have to replace the blocking zealot with a pylon, and you should always be careful spending more then three cb on your nexus vs zerg.
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Change the way you wall in. I change the way I walled in because of stuff like this. Line up your core and gateway at the ramp vertically with a max distance pylon (this leaves a gap for a building that is 3x3). If your scout probe sees the roach warren going down immediately after the pool, then save that gap for your next gateway. If it looks like a normal opening, you would normally have the 100 minerals for a pylon when the zealot is about to pop out. The zealot normally comes out right before lings from a standard gas/pool build gets to your base, so your ramp will still be guarded by a zealot from a normal opener (and the pylon won't be an issue with baneling busts, because you are getting sentries. This gives your wall way more HP, and 3 roaches cannot snipe a core or gateway down fast enough (especially since your core is centered as far from the ramp as possible), and it provides enough HP to get you some extra time for warpgate. Your gates warped in right as he finally got through the forcefields, and you faltered due to a risky wall. Poster a few above me is correct that this is 100% scoutable and fully telling of what is coming.
*also, quite a few people are suggesting that you do in fact get cannons, which is completely a correct decision to make in this case. Instead of adding the second gateway to wall off completely with core + initial gate, just drop a forge in its place. Hope this helps out!
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On February 02 2011 18:03 sgtcodfish wrote:
TL;DR: You can easily scout an immediate roach warren after pool, which is a tell for this build, and make a forge in response to this and have cannons up in time to defend. Even if it was a fake, you're ahead.
you know, instead of the 20+ zerglings he made, he could easily just pull 3 drones from gas, and add 3 more before the initial push, leaving him closer to 20 (i don't cut drones at 14 lol wtf man)
even from the replay, his zerglings were overkill.
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I just played a few ladder games so that I could try this build out. It worked, but it was against a much lower ranked player.
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On February 02 2011 17:45 Obelisk7 wrote: I watched the replay and your cybernatics core went down right before his roach warren. Also, your probe left right after he started the warren.
Cancel the core, start a second Gateway, and then get two zealots. Build a core, get two more zealots.
By the time his attack comes, the minerals you used for the third gateway with what you did normally instead is used on forces to hold the attack off. Core should finish while you chrono out zealots to deal with mass lings, and have a sentry chrono'ed with the other gate providing zealots.
From there I'm not sure how things would pan out...but if the attack is being held off then forcefield and reinforce army.
Would something like that work ?
No. Overlords can give vision, then roaches will just pick off zealots and zerg will lose nothing. Your sentries will be late. Also it's actually ridiculous how many players comment here who haven't tested the timings. Getting an immortal out at 5:15? Really? Teching to stargate? You can't be serious. Although I understand your resentments regarding the problem of having to defend with cannons, since I've seen even HuK do this against a 7RR by Slush about 3 months ago I've come to accept that...well....it's just how it is. I don't think you can defend without forge cost efficiently (meaning without probe-pull).
Now for the theory-craft on scouting: The main point about scouting this and other early roach one-basing strats is the pool BEFORE the gas. If he doesn't get pool before the gas, then the roach warren will be severely delayed, screwing up timings. 13 pool 12 gas isn't easy to catch unless your scout arrives right before the buildings are thrown down, but if you catch him doing this, you KNOW that there's a high chance he will do something all-in-ish. At this point, I'd definitely say you need to run your probe back in and scout for the potential roach warren. If he did indeed just go for the usual speedling-expo, then his build will be quite uneconomical - worth sacking a probe for this intel, imo.
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You're probe gets to his base and does a quick check for gas.. then stops at 2:33 and doesnt move until 3:03. His pool finishes at 2:52.. so that means that at the earliest he will have lings hatch at 3:16. He starts his roach warren at 2:57.
So you have 20 seconds after pool finishes to look for a warren. I think you just need to be more active with your probe in his base. But this is just one replay so... and you said that you knew it was coming.
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I am not a protoss, but I noticed that my build finishes warpgate research ten seconds earlier than you did in your game. That would have been enough to warp in two sentries to force field the ramp as he walks up splitting the army, or any other combination of units. I could get three gates up by that point along with a zealot and two sentries before the tech finished. I'm not sure if it will stop this build but it definitely seems like a step in the right direction. I think i did a 12 or 13 gate, and only chronoboosted probes twice before saving energy for warpgate. I didn't chronoboost units, but one less chronoboost could be used on probes to account for that if it is important.
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It's interesting because this is a rush in pvz that's extremely strong. It's funny, because one of my friends told me he found a new rush which was just speedlings, where he won practically all of his zvps on the ladder.
Now obviously my post sadly got kind of buried with the activity going down on the chat. I really, dislike the idea of getting a forge. Unlike zerg or terran, a cannon is something not on our standard early tech path, and deviations can cause lots of problems, like if they then proceed to mass expand, you're left with static defense you'll hardly use, and can not move in anyway what so ever, not to mention they barely guard your natural.
So again, (page 14 if you want to check), I posted up a build I thought was viable as a counter. 2 zealot, stalker, sentry, (10 probes also, considering the advantage in economy) vs 3 roach 12 speedlings. Considering the ff, I would imagine it's a close call, any other thoughts?
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On February 02 2011 18:10 Gooey wrote: Change the way you wall in. I change the way I walled in because of stuff like this. Line up your core and gateway at the ramp vertically with a max distance pylon (this leaves a gap for a building that is 3x3). If your scout probe sees the roach warren going down immediately after the pool, then save that gap for your next gateway. If it looks like a normal opening, you would normally have the 100 minerals for a pylon when the zealot is about to pop out. The zealot normally comes out right before lings from a standard gas/pool build gets to your base, so your ramp will still be guarded by a zealot from a normal opener (and the pylon won't be an issue with baneling busts, because you are getting sentries. This gives your wall way more HP, and 3 roaches cannot snipe a core or gateway down fast enough (especially since your core is centered as far from the ramp as possible), and it provides enough HP to get you some extra time for warpgate. Your gates warped in right as he finally got through the forcefields, and you faltered due to a risky wall. Poster a few above me is correct that this is 100% scoutable and fully telling of what is coming.
Can you post a screenshot of this kind of wall-in? Thanks
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I have been nuking the shizz out of the build on Diamond players (prac-partners) and un-scouted is a insta win!! I LOve that you found this.
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On February 02 2011 18:08 aebriol wrote: This is a better variation of a speedling all in that I do a lot against protoss and gives me plenty of free wins (10 gas 11 pool).
Reason for it is that protoss are so used to the "fact" that a wall in with gateway, cybernetics core, and 1 zealot (and really safe, with 1 zealot 1 sentry), makes them completely safe.
So I'm scouted - repeatedly. And I do the same build against the same players two games in a row. Against different players. And still - almost no one throws down a forge then cannons. Even though they see that I am getting ling speed, and have 12 drones. So they have to know that I am going all in pretty much (what else could I do? fake all in and mass drones?).
Then I simply attack move into their base, they throw down a force field, and think that makes th em safe - but when it ends, I just power through.
The proper response to this is cannoning into a forge expand imho, or if you were smart, you threw down a proxy pylon with your scouting drone when you saw it, and then you can cannon up and go normal 4 gate. Which will crush it honestly (move into base with 6 zealots, 2 sentries, force field his ramp so his units cannot get back, and gg when you kill his drones and queen).
You are actually far ahead in economy, so yes, you can afford to throw down forge, 3 cannons, and upgrade +1 melee attack (the variation that makes it very strong against mass ling).
I mean, a zerg sacrifice an overlord to see if it's a strong 4 gate that requires cutting drones and getting spine crawlers (1 gas 20ish probles = oh yeah). That's a stronger rush actually, it's just so well known and have been practiced for months so everyone knows the theory of how to deal with it (static defense on most maps, + cutting drones and a good unit combination).
So to me, this is a strong rush, but it's easily beatable by scouting, and treating it like the rush it is: static defense being key to beating it.
Possible to beat by units? Sure ... but that's just making it harder for yourself. Why would you do it? You will be well ahead by simply getting forge, 3 cannons, and chronoboosting probes or getting tech.
You have to know that when the rush fails, he will mass drones, and expo once, and try to use his units to contain you and stop you from expanding. That means his tech will be really late. DT would be a pretty certain option if you failed to put down a proxy pylon somewhere to kill his base - and it goes well with forge expand since it's so gas heavy.
If anyone wants to practice against this and other types of early zerg all ins on EU as protoss, aebriol.380 - but I am only 2500 master.
I still don't think this is as powerfull as terran 2 rax bunker, or 4 gate (20 or so probes), as far as all ins go, but it's unusual, which makes it hard in itself.
thanks needed that info...don't know much about Zerg as I don't play that race at all...so how many drones does Zerg tend to have to place a standard pool and extractor to get speed?
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do what u did that game but just pylon block ur entrance. Its when the lings get in ur base when it gets bad.
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On February 02 2011 18:35 Looky wrote: do what u did that game but just pylon block ur entrance. Its when the lings get in ur base when it gets bad.
A pylon block actually gets sniped down pretty fast when its warping in by lings and the 3 roaches. However, a gate block is far better and serves the same purpose imho, costing only 50 minerals more. Also you can cancel it at the last moment so you dont have to blow it up to get out of the base
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On February 02 2011 18:37 Nis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 18:35 Looky wrote: do what u did that game but just pylon block ur entrance. Its when the lings get in ur base when it gets bad. A pylon block actually gets sniped down pretty fast when its warping in by lings and the 3 roaches. However, a gate block is far better and serves the same purpose imho, costing only 50 minerals more. Also you can cancel it at the last moment so you dont have to blow it up to get out of the base
not when he pylon block it at his small choke where 1 ling would hit it. every protoss block with gateway and core. no way he would break a pylon with 3 roaches. plus you wouldnt want to cancel a gateway since you need to make units.
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The warren is down before anything is out to kill the scout, so you wouldn't blindly have to cannon, just cannon in response to a rush.
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On February 02 2011 18:28 Ingruz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 18:10 Gooey wrote: Change the way you wall in. I change the way I walled in because of stuff like this. Line up your core and gateway at the ramp vertically with a max distance pylon (this leaves a gap for a building that is 3x3). If your scout probe sees the roach warren going down immediately after the pool, then save that gap for your next gateway. If it looks like a normal opening, you would normally have the 100 minerals for a pylon when the zealot is about to pop out. The zealot normally comes out right before lings from a standard gas/pool build gets to your base, so your ramp will still be guarded by a zealot from a normal opener (and the pylon won't be an issue with baneling busts, because you are getting sentries. This gives your wall way more HP, and 3 roaches cannot snipe a core or gateway down fast enough (especially since your core is centered as far from the ramp as possible), and it provides enough HP to get you some extra time for warpgate. Your gates warped in right as he finally got through the forcefields, and you faltered due to a risky wall. Poster a few above me is correct that this is 100% scoutable and fully telling of what is coming.
Can you post a screenshot of this kind of wall-in? Thanks
Here ya go http://img64.imageshack.us/i/tosswallin.png/
This gives you the room to block with an additional forge/gateway against any cheese and still provides the zealot blocking gap. You will be able to afford the pylon before the zealot pops out with a normal sentry expand build. It is the safest wall imo.
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Has anybody tried the OL scout spotting forge and then not building any roaches (but finishing roach warren)? How far behind/ahead is the z after that?
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Sweden164 Posts
I'm not a protoss player but i think i have a solution. It's quite simple. Delay your warp gate tech and instead just make sentrys. Use 3 chrono boosts on probes and the rest on sentrys. Then add some more gates. Start your warp gate tech when you started your 3rd sentry.
I was able to continously force field the ramp from 5:15 onwards (around 5:15 is when his roaches arrived at your ramp).
Replay: http://www.2shared.com/file/Gl-YItB4/Metalopolis__19_.html
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Someone tried this on me a few days ago, and what I did to stop it was add a gateway to block the gap, and save forcefields until I absolutely need them. I was improvising but it worked.. Just get your warpgate production going asap, get out stalkers, and you'll be fine. My base ended up being very messy because I had to re-wall in a lot, but it was a win.
Watched your replay and your warptech could have been chrono'ed more, extra gates could have went down earlier. You also wasted your forcefields. Full wall off with an extra building, and let them attack it while you snipe his units. FF only when absolutely needed.
In hindsight I probably should have completed the wall with a forge instead, and use cannons to re-wall in. That would make life much easier.
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On February 02 2011 18:12 Asparagus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 18:03 sgtcodfish wrote:
TL;DR: You can easily scout an immediate roach warren after pool, which is a tell for this build, and make a forge in response to this and have cannons up in time to defend. Even if it was a fake, you're ahead. you know, instead of the 20+ zerglings he made, he could easily just pull 3 drones from gas, and add 3 more before the initial push, leaving him closer to 20 (i don't cut drones at 14 lol wtf man) even from the replay, his zerglings were overkill.
OK, I'm definitely removing the TLDR...
If he drones up more before the push and Travis did what I suggested with a forge + 2 cannons, the push will fail even harder when it comes, and if the push fails without dealing significant damage, z is definitely behind compared to p. Building a pylon to wall off and 2 cannons nullifies the attack pretty well. At worst it would have delayed the attack, giving Travis time to complete wg research and make 2 more sentries to hold off the ramp permanently - when the z broke through, travis had 1 warp-in ready from a just-finished warpgate, and 1 sentry on the way from a gateway.
If 2 cannons and a wall had delayed the push by just 10 seconds, Travis would have had another sentry out for another forcefield, giving him time to get the second sentry and forcefield again. That makes 4 sentries and that means permanent forcefields. Alternatively, you could get stalkers/zealots out to fight back and along with the cannons, z isn't getting through a small choke against zealots with mainly lings and 3 roaches. I don't know what the better response is, I don't play P (I'm guessing heavy zealots would be best, though) but I do know Z isn't breaking through that.
When the push broke P's ramp, P had a 10 harvester lead. Even with 3 more drones, that's still a lead of 7, and if the push fails, which it almost certainly would, Z is down an army and 7 drones, which is a lot at this point.
Please note I'm just theorycrafting... wouldn't mind testing this stuff out with someone, but I need to go AFK for a few hours
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On February 02 2011 18:41 Looky wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 18:37 Nis wrote:On February 02 2011 18:35 Looky wrote: do what u did that game but just pylon block ur entrance. Its when the lings get in ur base when it gets bad. A pylon block actually gets sniped down pretty fast when its warping in by lings and the 3 roaches. However, a gate block is far better and serves the same purpose imho, costing only 50 minerals more. Also you can cancel it at the last moment so you dont have to blow it up to get out of the base not when he pylon block it at his small choke where 1 ling would hit it. every protoss block with gateway and core. no way he would break a pylon with 3 roaches. plus you wouldnt want to cancel a gateway since you need to make units.
Actually its really eady to break that pylon because it is warping in and 3 roach can outdps the warp in. unless you pylon that gap really early, before the roaches arrive. But if you add a pylon after you ff then it can get broken down really fast. I dont quite like the idea of walling myself in totally before I see an attack though, but thats my personal preference
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You complain about having to put cannons down? EVERY zerg build which isn't pretty much all-ni has to pump roach/ling while making spines, vs protoss, so that isn't imbalanced then?
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You could have scouted the roach warren with your probe And you had 500 overmins when he attacked you
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On February 02 2011 13:41 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 Tantaburs wrote:On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. if you knew it was coming then why did you not build cannons because the matchup is retarded if i have to blindly get cannons every game vs zerg? i wanted to try to stop it without cannons. and i want to stop coloball without corruptors
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On February 02 2011 19:15 InsaniaK wrote: You complain about having to put cannons down? EVERY zerg build which isn't pretty much all-ni has to pump roach/ling while making spines, vs protoss, so that isn't imbalanced then?
That's because you're getting an expo that you didn't earn. Play off of one base and earn your expansion like everyone else and you won't need to make any spines.
Protoss being forced to make cannons 1 base vs. 1 is a lot more ridiculous than zerg having to put up spines to protect their expansion that they get "for free"
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First off, thanks for posting this build Travis, it looks extremely scary. I have played against less powerful versions on ladder for a while now.
My suggestion for beating it without having to lose a probe or anything like that: 1-If the zerg 13 pools you should see it when your scout goes to the zerg base (assuming a 9 pylon scout). You will also see the 13 gas. If you see both of these things... [move to step 2] 2-Once the pool finishes you still have 24 seconds before a zergling could possibly come out, so check the pool to see if he upgrades ling speed (the pool will shake reflecting that it is "evolving" an upgrade. This is important because in the replay your opponent made the warren immediately after the pool finished. Even if he delays for the 24 seconds, that would really slow down the build. Continually scout to see if he throws down a roach warren. [if true go to step 3] 3-If you see the warren, throw down a forge and 2 cannons and proceed to 4 gate, if not play normally. In either case, keep scouting to see if he expands, tries to "fake" the build, or does it delayed by ~20 seconds.
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this guy is on the top of my division, and im just below him. ALL his games end under 15 minutes. these are basically the kinds of builds he does. very alliny zerg.
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On February 02 2011 18:54 Thorzain wrote:I'm not a protoss player but i think i have a solution. It's quite simple. Delay your warp gate tech and instead just make sentrys. Use 3 chrono boosts on probes and the rest on sentrys. Then add some more gates. Start your warp gate tech when you started your 3rd sentry. I was able to continously force field the ramp from 5:15 onwards (around 5:15 is when his roaches arrived at your ramp). Replay: http://www.2shared.com/file/Gl-YItB4/Metalopolis__19_.html
Can't check the rep right now for the timings, but normally the overlord gives vision so that roaches can pick up stuff from the low-ground - if not units then at least buildings. While this "might" not be a major problem vs only 3 roaches, from the set-up of the zerg-BO it's literally impossible to know if he isn't going for a all roach all-in. Meaning, if he doesn't get ling speed but invests his gas into more roach, you are basicly screwed because the roaches will shred your buildings into pieces quite quickly.
The cannons are not necessary specificly vs heavy ling play (I believe what you are saying, that you are able to prevent this by constantly force-fielding) but vs the roach picking off stuff from the low-ground.
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I still don't understand why you're so opposed to having to build 2-3 cannons to defend an all-in from the zerg. You're up like 22 workers to his 14. Hold the push and you win. Why do you want to do this so badly without cannons?
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it's probably because of the old progamer mentality where less is more. it's just not happening this time though
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BitbyBitZerg
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Really, he didn't convert gateways into warp gates when the research finished. And there of course a few (10-15) seconds of time which can be shaved off the build. Five seconds on cyber core being late, a few more seconds on the first sentry popping out.
You can stop this with forcefields. I posted this a few pages ago, rewatch the replay if you're in doubt.
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Sure the guy win a lot with this build, since every damn protoss think they can get to void ray + colossus with 1 freeking zealot and a bunch of sentries. Ho damn there is one zerg that rush in this damn game... imbalance!
It's all in, the guy have 14 drone. When I'm getting 4gated, I just can't defend the rush without spine crawlers, even if I know it come at this time. And it's even less all in than that.
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*edit* how to delete posts? : [
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On February 02 2011 18:54 Thorzain wrote:I'm not a protoss player but i think i have a solution. It's quite simple. Delay your warp gate tech and instead just make sentrys. Use 3 chrono boosts on probes and the rest on sentrys. Then add some more gates. Start your warp gate tech when you started your 3rd sentry. I was able to continously force field the ramp from 5:15 onwards (around 5:15 is when his roaches arrived at your ramp). Replay: http://www.2shared.com/file/Gl-YItB4/Metalopolis__19_.html
Can't check the rep right now for the timings, but normally the overlord gives vision so that roaches can pick up stuff from the low-ground - if not units then at least buildings. While this "might" not be a major problem vs only 3 roaches, from the set-up of the zerg-BO it's literally impossible to know if he isn't going for a all roach all-in. Meaning, if he doesn't get ling speed but invests his gas into more roach, you are basicly screwed because the roaches will shred your buildings into pieces quite quickly.
The cannons are not necessary specificly vs heavy ling play (I believe what you are saying, that you are able to prevent this by constantly force-fielding) but vs the roach picking off stuff from the low-ground.
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On February 02 2011 19:27 Nashun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 19:15 InsaniaK wrote: You complain about having to put cannons down? EVERY zerg build which isn't pretty much all-ni has to pump roach/ling while making spines, vs protoss, so that isn't imbalanced then? That's because you're getting an expo that you didn't earn. Play off of one base and earn your expansion like everyone else and you won't need to make any spines. Protoss being forced to make cannons 1 base vs. 1 is a lot more ridiculous than zerg having to put up spines to protect their expansion that they get "for free"
First of all a 1 base zerg is waaay worse than a 1base protoss. Secondly you have to do spinecrawlers even though you're on 1base vs a 4gate.
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he has 14 drones, worse, you know he has 14 drones. any costs you have to incur in a hold wont offset the massive advantage you gain from holding. so do what zergs do when toss cheese them and throw out whatever build you wanted to use. Zerg has to cut drones at 20 to hold some warpgates, so here's your first suggestion: try cutting probes. you can scout this easily by seeing no eggs incoming and can confirm it by waiting for the warren. no amount of cannons will set you further behind than sitting on 14 drones for the duration of the pools build time w/ a saturated gyser.
stop being so greedy and scout properly. i guess you were probably tilting alittle bit when you posted this, but seriously. look at what he's doing. he's just capitalizing on a popular protoss mindset, that even with low unit counts zerg cannot typically push against a toss.
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On February 02 2011 19:53 WhiteDog wrote: Sure the guy win a lot with this build, since every damn protoss think they can get to void ray + colossus with 1 freeking zealot and a bunch of sentries. Ho damn there is one zerg that rush in this damn game... imbalance!
It's all in, the guy have 14 drone. When I'm getting 4gated, I just can't defend the rush without spine crawlers, even if I know it come at this time. And it's even less all in than that.
Totally agree
I think we should open some threads about this Z BO, as it is done with 4 gates "strategies", and try to improve it to the max.
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Why the hell is this becoming a balance discussion?
If you're on one base as zerg you do not need spine crawlers insaniaK.
Are you dense????
This replay is about a one base zerg. If he had been 4gating there would be no senties to delay the initial push around 4:45.
This means there are 3 roaches and a few lings (eight or so) in your base one minute before warp gate finishes. At this point a 4gate has 1 zealot one stalker.
At least use solid evidence with your balance trolls.
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The real interesting part about this build is forcing protoss to do something they really shouldn't be doing in early game, cannons. Also you can deny your protoss opponent's scouting while scouting with your own overlord. If roach warren after pool forces cannons, it means you can easily just drone hard and expand after protoss scouts your early warren, his tech and unit production will be severely slowed down.
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On February 02 2011 20:13 Ummbeefy wrote: Why the hell is this becoming a balance discussion?
If you're on one base as zerg you do not need spine crawlers insaniaK.
Are you dense????
This replay is about a one base zerg. If he had been 4gating there would be no senties to delay the initial push around 4:45.
This means there are 3 roaches and a few lings (eight or so) in your base one minute before warp gate finishes. At this point a 4gate has 1 zealot one stalker.
At least use solid evidence with your balance trolls. If you want to be able to still drone you need spines. I don't see why protoss's are screaming so much because a zerg didn't play the way they expected him to. he had 14 drones. it's an all-in. A marine scv all-in for example is really powerful, why shouldn't this be?
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Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end.
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Whenever I see a zerg doing something suspicious off of one base with a fast warren I do a low economy 1 gate instant stargate with max 3 zealots to hold the front and saved boosts.
You can have a voidray out and a second one on the way by the time he is about done busting in. While you might lose almost all your probes the first ray should clean up his attack and the second one along with a phoenix will definitely clean up his main in this case.
Is this entirely stupid? Compared to getting a near useless immortal at a similar point in time it actually puts him in a pretty nasty spot if he is all in.
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Having read all 16 pages of this thread, it seems there are some questions left unanswered:
For instance, if the Protoss does as some suggest and responds with a forge when he sees the roach warren, can the Zerg expect to see that happen? And if he can/does, and pumps drones instead of roaches, where does that leave everyone's economy and timings? What about the other wall-in or unit-based responses?
Finally (and this is a bit more out-there and a bit less of a question), the build has enough minerals for a queen and a warren when the pool pops, right? So it has enough to drop an expo hatch somewhere and then cancel it into a roach warren, at the expense of slightly delaying the queen. I'll be able to test the timings vs the replay in an hour or so...
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On February 02 2011 20:14 Minastir wrote: The real interesting part about this build is forcing protoss to do something they really shouldn't be doing in early game, cannons. Also you can deny your protoss opponent's scouting while scouting with your own overlord. If roach warren after pool forces cannons, it means you can easily just drone hard and expand after protoss scouts your early warren, his tech and unit production will be severely slowed down. protoss spends 300 minerals because of this. you stop droning at 14. saturate a gas. build up a larvae lock. get roach warren get z speed keep mining gas after z speed.
and you do all of these things while a probe is probably alive in your base. somehow i don't think droning hard and expanding will make this economical before the 5:30 mark when toss realizes somethings up again.
this build certainly beats 4gates clean, so i suggest not 4 gating when you scout it. if it comes out that 4gate style openings do not cleanly transition into defense as well as this does offense, then this build is exactly what zvp needs.
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On February 02 2011 20:13 Ummbeefy wrote: Why the hell is this becoming a balance discussion?
If you're on one base as zerg you do not need spine crawlers insaniaK.
Are you dense????
This replay is about a one base zerg. If he had been 4gating there would be no senties to delay the initial push around 4:45.
This means there are 3 roaches and a few lings (eight or so) in your base one minute before warp gate finishes. At this point a 4gate has 1 zealot one stalker.
At least use solid evidence with your balance trolls.
Sorry to say so but just cant take your "if 4 gate cant hold it off its imbalanced", if your opponent is hitting your base with 3 roaches and 8 lings you cant expect to hold it off with a sentry and a zealot.. this may change the weird idea that toss doesnt need to build anything till their warpgates finish, which is kinda cool. I dont think this is in any way imbalanced, just like a zerg getting attacked will have to cut drones and a terran being attacked will have to build bunkers/pull svc's protoss will need to realise they cant hold off an all in while using all their economy on teching
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You protoss need to learn that you cant just get a cyber right after ur gateway. Did you know u can get 2 gateways then a cyber too? I dont see whats the problem here except the whole notion of getting tech is a risk.
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On February 02 2011 20:22 Umpteen wrote: Having read all 16 pages of this thread, it seems there are some questions left unanswered:
For instance, if the Protoss does as some suggest and responds with a forge when he sees the roach warren, can the Zerg expect to see that happen? And if he can/does, and pumps drones instead of roaches, where does that leave everyone's economy and timings? What about the other wall-in or unit-based responses?
The overlord is camped over the ramp the whole time, and can see exactly how prepared the Protoss is for the rush. With shortish rush distances, the Forge pretty much *must* be started before the warren completes, and with speedlings out, Protoss will be blind in the short term. If zerg cancels the warren and immediately drones hard and expands, where are they at compared to a Protoss still cannoning up in anticipation?
So I tested it, and the good news is, Zerg isn't ahead here. At the 6:00 mark (probably the very latest the Protoss will realise that nothing's coming) the "cancelled roach warren into hardcore macro" build is still significantly economically behind a more typical speedling expand, and the available tech is identical. Protoss have some sunken cannon costs, but they haven't had to cut probes, they do have a Forge, and the ramp is nice and safe... it felt OK as Protoss in that position. I didn't have a cluster of sentries to start collecting mana with yet, but I definitely didn't feel behind.
I didn't try the "let Roach Warren finish and just not use it" - I assume that would be worse, since Protoss can't scout the difference anyway until much later.
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my system found 2 viruses in the replay file?
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On February 02 2011 20:35 HitStarcraft wrote: You protoss need to learn that you cant just get a cyber right after ur gateway. Did you know u can get 2 gateways then a cyber too? I dont see whats the problem here except the whole notion of getting tech is a risk.
What? "Us Protoss" pretty much always can get a Cyber right after our Gateway. Which is good, because we pretty much need it, given we have zero ranged units, and zero fast units, until it's done.
And in this case, delaying it would mean we're relying on pure zealot and a nice delayed warpgate tech. That's not gonna work out so well against this build.
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On February 02 2011 20:13 parn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 19:53 WhiteDog wrote: Sure the guy win a lot with this build, since every damn protoss think they can get to void ray + colossus with 1 freeking zealot and a bunch of sentries. Ho damn there is one zerg that rush in this damn game... imbalance!
It's all in, the guy have 14 drone. When I'm getting 4gated, I just can't defend the rush without spine crawlers, even if I know it come at this time. And it's even less all in than that. Totally agree I think we should open some threads about this Z BO, as it is done with 4 gates "strategies", and try to improve it to the max. hell no, if it gets popularized it wont ever work. Even so too many ppl know about it, i want a cheese like this up on my sleeve
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On February 02 2011 20:35 HitStarcraft wrote: You protoss need to learn that you cant just get a cyber right after ur gateway.
And you zergs need to learn that you cant just get an expansion right after your pool.
Oh wait...
WTF is it with the redonculous stupidity around here the last couple of pages? Just because there's a new zerg all-in around, this doesn't mean every zerg-troll has to get out of his hole to screw around here? People are trying to find the most efficient way to beat it, how about either you participate or please go away?
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its funny how op (who really should know better, considering how long he is on this board) cries imbalance as he gets rushed 3 times and refuses to refine his scouting/build and put up some cannons against an allin.
so no wonder this thread derails into balance whine when op as a master player (which again prooves that you can get to masters without understanding the game a bit) shouts out imbalance all over the place.
You could have easily scoutet the roach warren / no expo with your probe and had enough time to build forge and cannons. thats really all that there is to say. If z fakes the roach warren, cancel all but one cannon and forge expand. gratulation, you have more workers than him and can immidiatly start researching +1 weapons. where is the problem?
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On February 02 2011 20:49 Geo.Rion wrote: hell no, if it gets popularized it wont ever work. Even so too many ppl know about it, i want a cheese like this up on my sleeve
It's in Zerg's best interests to try and min/max the build, really. Ideally (from the zerg perspective) you will be able to find an ordering which will force the Protoss behind to be safe against it, while you're not forced to actually do it. (The same thing the Terrans have done to zerg several times since beta).
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On February 02 2011 20:50 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 20:35 HitStarcraft wrote: You protoss need to learn that you cant just get a cyber right after ur gateway. And you zergs need to learn that you cant just get an expansion right after your pool. Oh wait... WTF is it with the redonculous stupidity around here the last couple of pages? Just because there's a new zerg all-in around, this doesn't mean every zerg-troll has to get out of his hole to screw around here? People are trying to find the most efficient way to beat it, how about either you participate or please go away?
Zerg trolls? Given his reply wasn't very good as 2 gate is terrible against roach openings but it seems pretty clear that he was not trolling, he was just being clueless.
Several posters have established that throwing down a forge will make the Protoss come out ahead.
In the replay, Travis scouts 13 pool 12 gas early Roach Warren and plays as normal. This is a HUGE investment for Zerg early on. I'd say that most proxy gates would leave you with a better economy than this would. Zerg cuts drones and spends three very early drones on buildings.
A Zerg won't play as usual after scouting a two rax or a two gate. He will invest heavily in defense that he usually doesn't get.
Travis, in the end of the replay, comments that "so I'm supposed to forge every pvz" while this would only be true if he didn't scout. He was tilting and I think he knows better. I also think a lot of people have a point when they say that Protoss players are too comfortable against cheese - they expect to play standard and still be safe against Zerg.
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I'm not going to give you advice on how to beat it directly, because I A) don't play protoss and B) don't have experience using this build, but I can tell you that this sort of play is pretty standard in Korea (roach/ling agression makes up the majority of zerg play over there), so if you can find some pvz ladder games and just download a bunch, I'd bet you a minty mojito you'd find at least one of a guy with a build similar to yours holding this off.
On the off chance this doesn't work for you, A really good technique for finding a solution to your problems in A race vs B race is to play some ladder games as B race using X strategy and see how people respond. You might find one guy who faced this a ton and just smashes your face, then take that build and if you scout your opponent doing that, respond with what that guy who just smashed you did. This is something SAviOr did a ton in his reign as bonjwa which gave him a supreme edge vs his opponents. Granted the ladder system now isn't as conducive as you can't say, "I'm playing ONLY ZvP on ONLY this map (and perhaps using a smurf to do it)", which helped with consistency, and in the extremely high leagues, which you are in, vying for top of your division, or trying to make top 200 list, etc makes it scary to play a different race (which I think they need to change, but cest la vie, we have to work with what we have), if this thing really has the win rate he says it does, you're going to get a bunch of free wins until you get that one key loss you're waiting for, then you have a solution.
I didn't read the other posts to see if there was a similar post to this, b/c there are 17 pages, but if you stumble across this post, I'm thinking that you'd find a solution there. Good Luck.
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I'm Terran.
Why would going Forge FE be bad against this build? The guy said if he does this against Forge FE he just goes banelings and pops it... If there's one thing I know about playing Terran, spreading things out makes banelings much less effective. Not like you're going to have 4-5 cannons powered off 1 pylon...
Either way, ignore this comment. From my perspective this build just stops Protoss players from doing their 4gate build they love so much. I'm sure this build is only strong because conventional means of dealing with it aren't in the norm.
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On February 02 2011 20:54 Paradice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 20:49 Geo.Rion wrote: hell no, if it gets popularized it wont ever work. Even so too many ppl know about it, i want a cheese like this up on my sleeve It's in Zerg's best interests to try and min/max the build, really. Ideally (from the zerg perspective) you will be able to find an ordering which will force the Protoss behind to be safe against it, while you're not forced to actually do it. (The same thing the Terrans have done to zerg several times since beta). i have full confidence in my abilities to optimzie an early game simple rush build, with possible followups. The protoss should not change up his build necessarily unless he sees it's coming, so i dont gain a lot from that either :D
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I think chances are just to do the great wall of HongUn to hold this off. It is ridiculously fast. I haven't laddered for a few days and the last few Zergs have been slaughtering me with this. I tried with 3 sentries. They will come out fast enough to FF just until the warp-gate upgrade completes. In between there is a 10 second gap for him to run in and kill you. 1 Option would be to wall in completely to delay the push a little longer. Another Option would be to pull probes, but I doubt that this would would because roaches deal insane DPS.
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I just tried this build. Personally I think it's strong in that it is designed around punishing protoss "standard" PvZ (ie 1 gate core) play in the current metagame. With this build becoming more popular, it will get worked out and new "standard" play that is safe from this build will emerge.
On a larger level, I think this is great for the game as a whole as it gives zergs some more additional early options and can produce a wider variety of matches.
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Okay, I'm not exactly better than you but basically you're going to need a third sentry in time to FF to hold that.
In order to get one, you just need to chrono the cybercore 4 times instead of 3(After that, had you done the build perfectly, your first gate would have finished warping in a Sentry at 5:36, and you would have had time to forcefield). After that you can get a 4th and a 5th one in time and then you're all right.
In short: Chrono 4 times instead of 3.
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On February 02 2011 20:58 Gigaudas wrote: Travis, in the end of the replay, comments that "so I'm supposed to forge every pvz" while this would only be true if he didn't scout. He was tilting and I think he knows better. I also think a lot of people have a point when they say that Protoss players are too comfortable against cheese - they expect to play standard and still be safe against Zerg.
Yes of course he is/was on tilt - nevertheless see you protoss-players trolling around when zerg-players look for help against yet another different 4-gate (timing/composition)? Do you see us post "haha, stupid zergs have to learn that they can't get early expo and drone so hard"?
The way about 70% of the zerg-posters behave is childish, insulting and completely unnecessary.
On February 02 2011 21:09 Shikyo wrote: Okay, I'm not exactly better than you but basically you're going to need a third sentry in time to FF to hold that.
In order to get one, you just need to chrono the cybercore 4 times instead of 3(After that, had you done the build perfectly, your first gate would have finished warping in a Sentry at 5:36, and you would have had time to forcefield). After that you can get a 4th and a 5th one in time and then you're all right.
In short: Chrono 4 times instead of 3.
Again: from the set-up of the zerg-BO it's IMPOSSIBLE to know, if there will be a roach-all-in or a ling/roach-composition. Now...yet again: you will be dead with 3 sentries against 7 roaches happily shooting at your buildings with an overlord giving vision. Going all-out sentries without cannons is death vs a delayed roach-rush.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it.
I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well.
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Master 2500 Protoss (for what it is worth).
You could have easily scouted one of the two : -early roach warren (if you leave the probe in his base) -one base-ing zerg (if you leave the probe outside and come back to poke once in a while)
In both cases, if would think it is rather standard play for protoss to answer to that by forge + cannons and still be miles ahead of zerg... If you think you can defend this by doing some unorthodox gateway units defense, you're the one that should come up with the solution. Or else you might as well ask us "How do i stop mutalisk rush without cannons or stalkers ???"
TLDR : 1base zerg = forge + cannon
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great replay, thanks for sharing! =)
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Well you wanted to 3gate FE. Teh thing about that is, you do not try to build units asap out of ur one gate, you just trust that one zealot and one sentry is enough to keep zerg away. Obviously it is not. if oyu would add your first gate earlier and chronoboost a stalker out, you defenitely could harras his overlord before it is in position. From there you have to handle it like a strong Terran Bio push, try to cut off a few units at the front and kill them etc. It's an all-in, it will take a little time for toss to adjust, I would not call it imbalanced quite yet.
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On February 02 2011 21:10 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 20:58 Gigaudas wrote: Travis, in the end of the replay, comments that "so I'm supposed to forge every pvz" while this would only be true if he didn't scout. He was tilting and I think he knows better. I also think a lot of people have a point when they say that Protoss players are too comfortable against cheese - they expect to play standard and still be safe against Zerg. Yes of course he is/was on tilt - nevertheless see you protoss-players trolling around when zerg-players look for help against yet another different 4-gate (timing/composition)? Do you see us post "haha, stupid zergs have to learn that they can't get early expo and drone so hard"? The way about 70% of the zerg-posters behave is childish, insulting and completely unnecessary. Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 21:09 Shikyo wrote: Okay, I'm not exactly better than you but basically you're going to need a third sentry in time to FF to hold that.
In order to get one, you just need to chrono the cybercore 4 times instead of 3(After that, had you done the build perfectly, your first gate would have finished warping in a Sentry at 5:36, and you would have had time to forcefield). After that you can get a 4th and a 5th one in time and then you're all right.
In short: Chrono 4 times instead of 3. Again: from the set-up of the zerg-BO it's IMPOSSIBLE to know, if there will be a roach-all-in or a ling/roach-composition. Now...yet again: you will be dead with 3 sentries against 7 roaches happily shooting at your buildings with an overlord giving vision. Going all-out sentries without cannons is death vs a delayed roach-rush. He said he even knew it was coming. =P That's true though, but you can warp in a few Stalkers after you have enough FF to perma-hold. Forge would be the safest option, of course.
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i think there was a little lack of scouting..
if i am right he attacks when u have 1 zealot and 2 sentry, wp not rdy
after scouting the roachwarren, did u ever trieged to go forge?
i mean u have a little timingwindow with the 2ff, but not sure if cannons are up in time
anyways, it seem prety strong
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On February 02 2011 21:23 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 21:10 sleepingdog wrote:On February 02 2011 20:58 Gigaudas wrote: Travis, in the end of the replay, comments that "so I'm supposed to forge every pvz" while this would only be true if he didn't scout. He was tilting and I think he knows better. I also think a lot of people have a point when they say that Protoss players are too comfortable against cheese - they expect to play standard and still be safe against Zerg. Yes of course he is/was on tilt - nevertheless see you protoss-players trolling around when zerg-players look for help against yet another different 4-gate (timing/composition)? Do you see us post "haha, stupid zergs have to learn that they can't get early expo and drone so hard"? The way about 70% of the zerg-posters behave is childish, insulting and completely unnecessary. On February 02 2011 21:09 Shikyo wrote: Okay, I'm not exactly better than you but basically you're going to need a third sentry in time to FF to hold that.
In order to get one, you just need to chrono the cybercore 4 times instead of 3(After that, had you done the build perfectly, your first gate would have finished warping in a Sentry at 5:36, and you would have had time to forcefield). After that you can get a 4th and a 5th one in time and then you're all right.
In short: Chrono 4 times instead of 3. Again: from the set-up of the zerg-BO it's IMPOSSIBLE to know, if there will be a roach-all-in or a ling/roach-composition. Now...yet again: you will be dead with 3 sentries against 7 roaches happily shooting at your buildings with an overlord giving vision. Going all-out sentries without cannons is death vs a delayed roach-rush. He said he even knew it was coming. =P That's true though, but you can warp in a few Stalkers after you have enough FF to perma-hold. Forge would be the safest option, of course.
The problem is, that you'll lose your cybernetics core vs the roaches quite quickly. You can't repair and when they go all-in on your core you are done Doesn't matter if they lose stuff in the process, sentries and 2-3 warped stalkers don't kill 7 roaches fast enough.
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On February 02 2011 18:47 Gooey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 18:28 Ingruz wrote:On February 02 2011 18:10 Gooey wrote: Change the way you wall in. I change the way I walled in because of stuff like this. Line up your core and gateway at the ramp vertically with a max distance pylon (this leaves a gap for a building that is 3x3). If your scout probe sees the roach warren going down immediately after the pool, then save that gap for your next gateway. If it looks like a normal opening, you would normally have the 100 minerals for a pylon when the zealot is about to pop out. The zealot normally comes out right before lings from a standard gas/pool build gets to your base, so your ramp will still be guarded by a zealot from a normal opener (and the pylon won't be an issue with baneling busts, because you are getting sentries. This gives your wall way more HP, and 3 roaches cannot snipe a core or gateway down fast enough (especially since your core is centered as far from the ramp as possible), and it provides enough HP to get you some extra time for warpgate. Your gates warped in right as he finally got through the forcefields, and you faltered due to a risky wall. Poster a few above me is correct that this is 100% scoutable and fully telling of what is coming.
Can you post a screenshot of this kind of wall-in? Thanks Here ya go http://img64.imageshack.us/i/tosswallin.png/This gives you the room to block with an additional forge/gateway against any cheese and still provides the zealot blocking gap. You will be able to afford the pylon before the zealot pops out with a normal sentry expand build. It is the safest wall imo.
Thanks mate, seems interesting!
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You might as well get a forge and some cannons. When he does this and you try go for a 3warp gate expand you are not going to be able to spend that money (your expo isn't going down until you break that strangehold they have on the ramp), I was holding it off without cannons (albiet to a poorly played rush, he sent all his lings to their deaths first then the roaches) and my money really sky rocketed, I think I was at around 800minerals when I managed to get out, really at that stage if you want to be really safe just drop a forge and some cannons then expand after.
Also if you follow this up with 3stargates after you expand and boost out 9 Pheonixes TLO style, you instantly win :D There is almost nothing they can do to stop your Pheonixes raping everything unless they go something like 1base hydra with 3 spore crawlers, but then you just transition into Voidray Colossus.
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Ok, watched that - I seriously dont know what you can do to stop it. Even if you had your 4 gate up you would have lost.
Edit: After reading some more posts. I think having a solid block wall with a cannon would be good. Then once you get enough sentries, you would be safe. Its a tough build to counter - I luckily haven't faced it yet, however I expect that to change soon.
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On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well.
Exactly what I was going to say. How exactly do you defend against a 7RR if you can't defend against this?
Also, I'm increasingly starting to think chronoing WG is a build-specific move, and that it's almost always better to chrono your 1 or 2 gates instead; the only time chronoing WG really helps is if you've got a super refined build and with X number of predetermined chronos on WG your gates finish right at the same time and bam you can warp in 3-4 units simultaneously.
Lastly, a forge + 2 cannons is 450 minerals; the forge isn't wasted, and the cannons mean you can tech instead of making more units. So you come out with a +1 timing attack and crush the zerg who had 14 drones when you had 20. How is that a problem?
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On February 02 2011 21:44 spacenegroes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote:On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well. Exactly what I was going to say. How exactly do you defend against a 7RR if you can't defend against this? Also, I'm increasingly starting to think chronoing WG is a build-specific move, and that it's almost always better to chrono your 1 or 2 gates instead; the only time chronoing WG really helps is if you've got a super refined build and with X number of predetermined chronos on WG your gates finish right at the same time and bam you can warp in 3-4 units simultaneously.
This is indeed something I've been noticing a lot in even pro-gamer replays. Everyone seems to just "randomly" chrono-boost the warpgate, even without any specific timing in mind. Personally, I chrono-boost my nexus almost exclusively and always end up with 2-4 probes more when I compare my games with the games of the pros (don't worry, I screw up my macro afterwards often enough to not feel too proud about this). Chrono-boosting warpgate-tech is almost always inferior to chrono-boosting the nexus or the gateway. If you just use 1-2 chronos on warpgate-tech, you will get only 3 instead of 4 units out of your gateway and have some idle time. If you start your 4th unit, the warpgate-tech will finish ahead of time....nothing you could want either, then it would've been better to just not have chrono-boosted it at all.
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Thanks for the BO Travis . Won 9 In a row ZvZ / ZvP with this build and I am finally experiencing what P feel like when they 4 warp gate rush and win. Thanks for the free wins.
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You need to wall off with a Pylon or two. At very worst you need to pull probes. And Chrono Boosting your gateway is a MUST against a Roach rush, especially one that is coming faster than usual like that. You shouldn't be wasting it on warp gate. Keep in mind you were ahead 10 probes at that point in the game as well, throwing down a forge and 2 cannons wouldn't have cost you all that much in the long run if you feel you must go that route against the rush.
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On February 02 2011 20:21 Kickboxer wrote: Whenever I see a zerg doing something suspicious off of one base with a fast warren I do a low economy 1 gate instant stargate with max 3 zealots to hold the front and saved boosts.
You can have a voidray out and a second one on the way by the time he is about done busting in. While you might lose almost all your probes the first ray should clean up his attack and the second one along with a phoenix will definitely clean up his main in this case.
Is this entirely stupid? Compared to getting a near useless immortal at a similar point in time it actually puts him in a pretty nasty spot if he is all in. By that point I've noticed a second queen can be made as well as additional AA defense. If you lose all/most of your probes, even if you clean up the attack, you've lost.
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Never liked 4-Gate at all... This All-In just forces you to play the Zergs game. Actually a huge mindgame advantage if it can be faked for Canons.
and may be can recover quickly enough, i mean even from 6-Pools Zergs can recover if they get their time.
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Zerg is forced to lose his scouting drone if he wants to spot a 3 gate expand/4 gate without wasting an ovie. Now I'm glad Toss also has to lose their scouting probe to get some useful information!
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On February Sbrubbles wrote: Zerg is forced to lose his scouting drone if he wants to spot a 3 gate expand/4 gate without wasting an ovie. Now I'm glad Toss also has to lose their scouting probe to get some useful information!
A zerg can keep his drone alive against zealots which forces the protoss to either get a stalker out before we can choose strategy or it will get scouted, delaying tech alot. So it's not by near comparison.
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Just won 5 in a row PvZ using this build.
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If I all in as zerg vs you, and you give up keeping the ramp and go stargate, I win 100% of the time. I'll start building another queen (and a third eventually), get down evo chamber, and keep rallying units to your base. Any base race, I win with superior mobility of lings, and if you defend, I'll just get enough defense up to beat you when you have killed off the ling stream.
That's pretty much the worst response you could have.
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Just been messing around with this with a practice partner and the only way we could find to beat it with gates was to use a gate/core/ - gap - gate wall with a gap near the side the roaches will go for, add a pylon next to the core to continue the choke, drop a second gate as soon as you scout and get 1 zealot then pure stalkers + chrono with a late second gas. The roaches can't hit anything but the gateway giving you plenty of time, if they try to rush up bring 3 or 4 probes to assit at the choke and u are totally fine. Follow up with a 3rd gate and a Stargate and u can chrono warpgate once early. Seemed to work ok with good micro. Changed what I scout for in PvZ totally this thread =].
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Ok I know problem has been solved, but I am trying to maybe open the eyes of some Players to alternative Solutions for Problems instead of q.q imba or whatever.
Okay I am not trying to be a pro just want to voice my Opinion before every Ladder Session I play some matches against the very Hard AI because in Term of Macro execution Timing nothing beats the AI for obvious Reasons and to get APM up to speed try new builds etc etc good fun stuff,
So I watched the Replay and noted at 5.45 in close Pos. he atk you with 3 Roaches and a Bunch of Lings. now I copied the Build and after I got it down tried it against the very Hard AI and the AI has no problem Crushing this.
Hard AI opens 2 inbase Gates +Core -no Rampblock- Build straight 6 Zealots and Blocks Ramps with them and by the Time i got there at 6.00 I was far Pos by the way so I adapted the Timings some, he had 1 Stalker + another in the making. not to tell my atk got crushed I won still in the end cause the very Hard AI is fucking easy in the Long run but this supposed to be imba Atk got even crushed easily by the very Hard AI. maybe something to consider giving the BlizzAI atleast some credit in earlier day I think heard in in Sotg or somewhere else even a Pro in their free Time try against the AI to perfect their Build, Just a Opinion not trying to start anything peace and out.
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A friend just showed me this thread and i must say, that i never laughed so hard in the last couple of months. How did you get those 3200 rating? Let me guess - 4 gate rush or cannon rush/if fail - expand and 4 gate push or fe > cannons > phoenix/Void, switch to coloss or Mothership? You can`t complain, about the single strat, that can do actually real damage to Protoss. And you can really easily counter it if you scout early. Your void is up just in time and it`s just GG. This matchup is really imbalanced, but from the other side. I really can`t belive, that there are 19 pages and noone flamed you hard already.
User was warned for this post
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Tested out the hatch cancel proxy warren at lunchtime. Near as I can tell, it delays your roaches by 10 in-game seconds:
Same build order as original replay rally 14th drone to proxy location hatch cancel into roach warren.
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On February 02 2011 23:18 Alkazar wrote: A friend just showed me this thread and i must say, that i never laughed so hard in the last couple of months. How did you get those 3200 rating? Let me guess - 4 gate rush or cannon rush/if fail - expand and 4 gate push or fe > cannons > phoenix/Void, switch to coloss or Mothership? You can`t complain, about the single strat, that can do actually real damage to Protoss. And you can really easily counter it if you scout early. Your void is up just in time and it`s just GG. This matchup is really imbalanced, but from the other side. I really can`t belive, that there are 19 pages and noone flamed you hard already.
B/c 1 void ray is gunna kill 30 lings before all your probs are dead.
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I can`t see nothing wrong on going forge + cannons then or whatever. His build will die to any early Roaches/lings all-in, that`s what i ment.
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I see why this push is stronger than 7 roach rush... But I still believe that you can kill it with stalkers instead of making sentry early game.
Its easily scoutable since your opponent need to throw the roach warren right away + he doesnt spawn unit. The scouting probe should still be at the natural location at that time. Doing 1-1-1 (zealot - sentry - staler) at this point is still possible... holding off with these 3 while waiting for 2 gate to warp in (since warpgate actually finish around the push)
Worst case, you have to build a pylon to get you time...
I did that recently against that push and it work wonder trust me.
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so far i've done it 4 times and won all 4 games - 2x vs 4 gate attempts, once vs phoenix and once vs voids (all master players besides me) - needless to say that voids killed all my units but lings are so fast that charge doesnt really work good on and the damage i could do to the economy was insane (was like 3-4 probes left); against phoenix play it was definitely the easiest time
when the protoss tried to counter with his 2 void rays it was np to have 3 queens and an evo chamber ready; its quite funny that such an easy build was possible and none did it this way - so far i think on most maps the toss have to start with forge (scrap and shakuras are fine against this build)
hopefully someone comes up with something similar for zvt because i would really like to strike back with copied all-in strats like those im facing in 90% of my games
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On February 02 2011 23:18 Alkazar wrote: A friend just showed me this thread and i must say, that i never laughed so hard in the last couple of months. How did you get those 3200 rating? Let me guess - 4 gate rush or cannon rush/if fail - expand and 4 gate push or fe > cannons > phoenix/Void, switch to coloss or Mothership? You can`t complain, about the single strat, that can do actually real damage to Protoss. And you can really easily counter it if you scout early. Your void is up just in time and it`s just GG. This matchup is really imbalanced, but from the other side. I really can`t belive, that there are 19 pages and noone flamed you hard already. Go back to 4chan or whatever other Internet cesspool taught you that posting like that is acceptable. Back to topic, if cannons are required to hold this rush then on some maps it might be possible to simcity at your natural and at least have the cannons in position to defend an eventual expo.
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Hmmm... Seeing as this is a crazy all-in i think you really need to be more paranoid than you were. I mean you see a very early roach warren and no expo, and yet you continue with your 3gate sentry expand.
If i suspected this was coming (after watching the replay, it would kill me the first time no doubt) i think i would get a forge up along with the 3gates. When you are sure this is actually whats incoming block your ramp with a pylon and stall while getting cannon(s) + warpgate ready. With cannons at your ramp, and probes on hold position around the cannons zerglings tend to be very weak. Also, you should probably do everything you can to stuff your ramps choke with hold position probes if its even possible. Zerglings tend to be very stupid when it comes to hold position probes that blocks for an actual attacking unit, since they want to kill that before the probes..
So i guess it will cost probes, but i think its possible to hold, and you will probably be ahead after.
If you throw up the forge and he doesnt go for that attack, you can still follow up with an expansion at a reasonable time, and his own expansion would be very late.
only 2.7k masters, but thats my view.
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On February 02 2011 23:24 Finite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 23:18 Alkazar wrote: A friend just showed me this thread and i must say, that i never laughed so hard in the last couple of months. How did you get those 3200 rating? Let me guess - 4 gate rush or cannon rush/if fail - expand and 4 gate push or fe > cannons > phoenix/Void, switch to coloss or Mothership? You can`t complain, about the single strat, that can do actually real damage to Protoss. And you can really easily counter it if you scout early. Your void is up just in time and it`s just GG. This matchup is really imbalanced, but from the other side. I really can`t belive, that there are 19 pages and noone flamed you hard already. B/c 1 void ray is gunna kill 30 lings before all your probs are dead.
Don't feed the troll, trolls seem hungry today...
On topic: everyone with a 3 digit IQ will realize that 1 ray, 2 rays or even 3 rays will never be able to deal with mass-lings streaming inside the base killing everything.
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Wow, this opener is amazing. Protoss players, expect to see every zerg player doing this soon.
I can only guess what might work here... a full wall off with two gateways and cybercore and make stalkers? Or maybe a full wall off and your first 3-4 units have to be sentries, and just keep FFing the ramp until you can get more units out.
Seems like a huge pain in the ass for protoss to deal with, if it's even possible. Some awkward opener like this, or maybe even a required forge-defensive cannon opening, might start to be a must-have when playing protoss against zerg.
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My suggestion is to look at his match list and see games where he loses to protoss and see what their responses were.
Then try to formulate a response from what you see in his previous match list.
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This is a really gay build, you have to start cutting probes very early. You were 6 workers ahead, and I really think you need to mod your build :S , cause that timing hits before almost anything. The indicator is really the roach warren going up without expanding, well that's standard for any of these gimmicky rushes. Instead of FFing the ramp completely let half the army walk up and split the army, while you buy time. Maybe block the wall another pylon, as I think the zealot was useless. You have a much better time dealing with the 3 roaches, without getting surrounded by the lings. You also used alot of gas on sentries, convert them to only stalker? I really have no idea, I haven`t seen this much effective offensive play since beta where roaches were one supply. :S Theoretically, a toss can hold with less economy than a Zerg, I think you can really afford cutting probe production after like 20, so don`t be afraid to be behind. try getting gates up early etc. As long as you hold this off you win rite? this is an all in. For what its worth, I'm only 2600 Masters Zerg. (I will never do this :D)
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First, I would chronoboost units out Second, I would focus his overlord instead of keeping units idle (if he gets no vision = gg) Third, I would use forcefields for splitting his army
I think this way you can easily stop this all-in and win the game right there.
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On February 03 2011 00:25 Twaxter wrote: For what its worth, I'm only 2600 Masters Zerg. (I will never do this :D)
I'm beginning to wonder if that's why Zerg is constantly under the cosh in the early game: anything that doesn't involve droning this hard is frowned upon.
What if, instead, we treated this like the all-in variant of 2-rax play, and started looking for other variants or deviations to punish the responses we scout? We might not find anything, but I can't believe it's not worth a try...
First, I would chronoboost units out Second, I would focus his overlord instead of keeping units idle (if he gets no vision = gg) Third, I would use forcefields for splitting his army
I think this way you can easily stop this all-in and win the game right there.
Travis, if you want to hit him, I'll cheerfully hold him for you
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I don't really see the big deal here. Down in terrid silver league, I see badly executed variations of this all the time, and it can hurt. See, bad zergs haven't been told 9000 times that the only way to survive vs Toss/T is to 15 hatch, so they do random crap all the time that can be surprisingly effective. What you have to do is start playing the game like you're supposed to play it. Actually scouting and countering your opponents build instead of just blindly going 4 gate and 2 rax scv pull EVERY SINGLE GAME, because you know half the time it gives you free bo wins, and the other half play out as normal macro games.
What this really farks up, however, it team games. Imagine 4 zergs doing this on one of the 2 players per base kind of maps. Painful. 12 roaches and 40 zerglings at your base at 5:20. OUCH.
Oh, and a proxy hatch cancel into roach warren could be amazing. It doesn't even really have to be out of your base....who scouts the corners of a zergs base?
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So I am going to have to mess around with evo chamber, because right now I am getting the third roach spawned at 4:48 with it, which is slower than the 7rr. I did some manual testing, and here is the BO I came up with on my own (or something close, doing this from memory):
9 ovie 10 drone 11 drone 12 gas (@ ~150 minerals) 11 pool 10 drone 11 drone 12 drone 13 drone 14 queen 16 roach warren 15 zergling @ 100/100 metabolic boost 16 overlord @ 48 gas pull 1 drone off gas 16 roach 18 roach 20 roach 22 overlord and then from there transition out if you scout cannons with those first 2 lings, or just build lings and go for the GG. This build was getting the third roach out for me at around 4:20 game time.
If I get evo chamber to get me something better I will post it, but that is the best I have been able to do so far.
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On February 03 2011 00:50 Bair wrote: So I am going to have to mess around with evo chamber, because right now I am getting the third roach spawned at 4:48 with it, which is slower than the 7rr.
Hmm. That's weird, because even with the 10 second delay incurred by the hatch-cancel I tested, my roaches were ready at 4:30. I desperately want to go check the original replay again now to make sure I'm right :D
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On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote: i even knew this was coming.
Yet you spent a huge amount of time, resources, and chronoboosts towards teching to warpgates, which would not finish until after the timing attack hit. The timing on your second gateway was also such that it was totally useless against this push. It's not enough to know what the opponent is doing, you need to adapt to it. Fire up YABOT and find a build that doesn't leave you with one zealot and one sentry 5 minutes into the game.
Also, you played THREE games (in which you probably did basically the same thing), and started a post cying imba? Come'on man...
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On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat.
They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout.
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You could scout better, put second gate faster and chrono all gateway units. His attack comes extremly quickly( around 5 minuts i think) but by this time you could have had 1 zealot 1 sentry 2 stalker. He didnt build too many roaches and effectivness of lings can be decresed by puting all your units at the choke hope it helps
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Just tried it out against a protoss who cut probes and went straight for chronoboosted immortals, robobay up immediately after cybercore. I'm not sure if this is an effective counter at masters league level (high diamond here so I didn't execute 100% perfectly), but with immortals and zealots he was able to hold me off after I broke through the front door. If this zerg build does counter a fast immortal build, then there's very little room for error I would say.
BTW this was on Steppes and he held me off... fast immortal/zealot really came a lot sooner than I thought it could.
However, after my "all-in" failing I was only 3 drones behind, had my queen out, and toss had only two gateways. I was able to drone up, get right back in the game, and went on to win it. If he had tried to attack me, speedlings would have held off immortal + 2 warpgate zealot just fine.
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I've been hit by this and even with going 1 gate robo and getting a fast immortal, there is just too many lings to deal with. It seems like you almost need to get a really fast void ray and possibly cannons to deal with, but doing that blind isnt really a good choice :/
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i mean if you see roachwarren, expecting a Roachrush, its obvious that Zealots wont be effectiv. so a complete Wall-In with 1 Canon should be the way to go.
well actually i would first off all suggest, skipping any Zealots, as long as you don't see any Zerglings at all.
for 50 more mins, you get double the HP and more DPS with 1 Canon, also gonna remember, you need less Pylons due to less Supply.
definitly you should put only as much canons as necessary, gonna keep that probe at least alive to judge if they are building the units they are supposed to build.
If its clear their coming let the Canons chop of some of their units, by trapping them with forcefields. As long as Canons get into the fight, their pretty cost effectiv.
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On February 03 2011 00:56 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 00:50 Bair wrote: So I am going to have to mess around with evo chamber, because right now I am getting the third roach spawned at 4:48 with it, which is slower than the 7rr. Hmm. That's weird, because even with the 10 second delay incurred by the hatch-cancel I tested, my roaches were ready at 4:30. I desperately want to go check the original replay again now to make sure I'm right :D
Nonono, I meant using evolution chamber (the zerg BO optimizer) the order I was getting got the third roach out on that timing. 4:20ish is when I was able to get it using the BO I just posted (which is a little different than the one in the first replay).
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On February 03 2011 01:19 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 00:56 Umpteen wrote:On February 03 2011 00:50 Bair wrote: So I am going to have to mess around with evo chamber, because right now I am getting the third roach spawned at 4:48 with it, which is slower than the 7rr. Hmm. That's weird, because even with the 10 second delay incurred by the hatch-cancel I tested, my roaches were ready at 4:30. I desperately want to go check the original replay again now to make sure I'm right :D Nonono, I meant using evolution chamber (the zerg BO optimizer) the order I was getting got the third roach out on that timing. 4:20ish is when I was able to get it using the BO I just posted (which is a little different than the one in the first replay).
Oh, so the evo chamber was giving you roaches at 4:48? Interesting. What other specifications did you supply, apart from the three roaches?
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Just mid level 3300 terran, masters but my advice from watching a prime member deal with early rush is to constantly rebuild your pylon wall as he breaks it and keep falling back with stalkers, when you wall ur ramp, instead of using zealots u pop 1 pylon (this will go down) and as he is about to break it you make more to constantly keep walling. His build is an all in, so if he fails he loses, you just need to hold.
Hope this helps, it was just rough from watching a Prime members play.
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I've had this happen to me before. In retrospect, a complete wall off with cannons and using Stalker/Sentry fire to fend off the attack could have worked. Then again, once the wall is breached, there's probably more ling/roach reinforcements that will just roll you over.
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On February 03 2011 01:23 MERLIN. wrote: Just mid level 3300 terran, masters but my advice from watching a prime member deal with early rush is to constantly rebuild your pylon wall as he breaks it and keep falling back with stalkers, when you wall ur ramp, instead of using zealots u pop 1 pylon (this will go down) and as he is about to break it you make more to constantly keep walling. His build is an all in, so if he fails he loses, you just need to hold.
Hope this helps, it was just rough from watching a Prime members play.
Zealot -> stalker -> sentry? I agree that you want buildings involved however you choose to defend it, but I wonder what the unit order should be.
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On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. I agree with this, if he fakes you into building a forge with 3 cannons and goes pure drones then as Protoss you are royally fucked. How do you come back in that situation? It puts you on the backfoot the entire game...
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Just tried this twice and won both, even with slight errors in the build. it seems very strong, as toss cant get enough sentries out
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I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced
Of course not you play toss
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Now that Zerg has a viable 4gate / 2rax rush perhaps their openings will stop being so predictable.
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On February 03 2011 01:37 nvs. wrote:Now that Zerg has a viable 4gate / 2rax rush perhaps their openings will stop being so predictable.
It's only equivalent to a 4gate or a 2rax if it lets Zerg do all the fake-out bullshit and eco-friendly deviations those builds permit - which is yet to be determined empirically
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As someone who plays P and Z about evenly (only at high diamond though, no masters) I just don't understand why cannoning should be out of the question against this build.
1) You can scout it coming by seeing the early warren before zerglings can deny you 2) If you immediately drop a forge, cannons will be complete or very near complete (depending on map) when his push arrives 3) Spending 300 minerals on cannons (not counting a forge here cause you want it anyway) will still leave you lightyears ahead of a Zerg who is on 14 drones to your ~20 workers 4) Even if Z cancels the rush upon seeing your forge (which you can sac a 50 mineral probe to determine), you will still be close to even and now it is 1 base toss vs 1 base zerg. Guess who wins that race?
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Zergs are either reading this thread or everyone just feels like doing variations on 5RR. Seems like I can beat it the same way I beat 5RR around my level (2500 diamond): scout it, stay on one gas, chrono heavily on stalkers with just one chrono on warpgate research. Floating the overlord in is definitely catching on, and stalkers shut that down pretty well.
YMMV!
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4) Even if Z cancels the rush upon seeing your forge (which you can sac a 50 mineral probe to determine), you will still be close to even and now it is 1 base toss vs 1 base zerg. Guess who wins that race?
I wouldn't be so confident about that, you know. The lings made right after the roach warren will make it difficult for the probe, especially when speed finishes, and an expansion can be dropped pretty quickly if that's what Zerg wants to do. Heck, he could even cut gas after enough for one roach and send that over to loiter at the edge of sight and really convince you he's serious...
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Unfortunately, because of these rushes i feel like i have to get a forge if Z does not expand by the four minute mark. And even if you make two cannons the Z can just make a hatch and he is ahead. What i do is chrono 3 sentries so that i have 45 seconds to stall and make the cannons, because if you make them while the Z army is morphing Z can cancel some units and make a hatch instead. EDIT: why is everyone flaming travis? i was hoping to find a decent way to stop this build too...
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well im gonna bring up an importent point:
1: artosis now plays protoss
2: artosis havent whined about this build
3: artosis whines about anything even near "hard to stop"
from these 3 points i can tell u this build either doesn't excist, or is easy to handle
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On February 03 2011 01:36 BandonBanshee wrote: I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced
Of course not you play toss
Thank you for your extremely insightful first post. Do you guys crawl out of the woodwork to post random nonsense in the "Strategy forum"?
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On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout.
From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in.
If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons.
However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off.
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On February 02 2011 13:22 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:21 confusedcrib wrote: This seems like a roach rush with mass lings behind it. I know no one says this or does this, and I'm just a 2700 diamond, but if you go gateway, robo, gateway and chrono out your first immortal, it pops out just as the roaches are hitting your front, the hard part is the zerglings, but perhaps sentry control is the answer, but you can have an immortal out on time. Try testing that out dude, ur so wrong, there is no way in hell the immortal would be out even close to in time
yeah....no way in hell that immo could be out by then. did you even watch the replay?
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The rush comes at around 6 min.
Can you guise name other rushes that comes around that time?
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On February 03 2011 02:01 Kralle333 wrote: The rush comes at around 6 min.
Can you guise name other rushes that comes around that time?
Mothership rush?
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wow, i had respect for you before, but damn, you QQ so much in that replay...
you "know it is coming" but you don't forge.... c'mon son
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On February 03 2011 02:01 Kralle333 wrote: The rush comes at around 6 min.
Can you guise name other rushes that comes around that time? It was there around 5 minutes.
On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. he did not get 3 roaches first, he got 2 lings first.
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Just curious, how would a 2gate opening work? I'm a newb, don't hate
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I just tried this on far position metalopolis. It was a pretty easy win but I was worried he would hold it because he already had two stalkers out and was literally morphing his warpgates as I was killing the zealot. Once the zealot went down though it was pretty much over, I immediately killed a pylon so he was supply blocked and couldn't use the warpgates until it was way to late.
One risk for me I saw is he might have been about to walk his stalkers down and snipe the overlord, though it would be risky if he was still outside when the lings showed up.
So I don't think you can hold it with stalkers, I might have even fucked up the timing a little bit. Though I wonder how well he would have been able to hold it if he had a pylon wall instead of zealot wall because he would quickly be able to warp in more units.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133986-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
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the best feature about this rush is probably that it offers quite some flexibility as lings are cheaper than roaches especially in supply so a transition into an expansion is viable
though i think there will be a solution for protoss appearing soon; a forge is definitely not a bad idea because it forces zerg to stay back and start expanding and drone up while the protoss can expand with cannons too
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So this stops the 20 probe 4 gate all in? And by stops I mean put them on the backfoot for once.
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I've been watching the replay a couple of times. First of all, travis didnt need to scout it as he knew what was coming since he had played the zerg already. I don't think he made any major mistakes. The only think I could come up with is retreating the zealot and wall off completely with a gateway/pylon and allow warp-gate to kick in. The three chrono boosts on warp gate could have been chronoboosts on units, prob allowing 1/2 even 3 more FFs. However, i think it would do little to change the outcome.
The problem here could have been the BO? as Travis was getting the sentries for an early expo, an the attack was too early to defend with FFs
After watching the replay more, i guess 2 chrono boosts on the gateway would allow a 3rd sentry to come out and enough for the first sentry to have another FF ready. Warp gate would come out and probably be able to hold it. (I think u still need to rewall tho) This is just theory tho.
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EDIT:Not worth to get a ban for.
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Hes completely All-in, you have to not play standard in order to beat it..... seems pretty straightforward.
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I saw Idra do with on JP against some random protoss. He brought his overlord near his ramp with roachs and sniped the zealot/sentry from the low ground and then ran his speedlings in. This can easly be stoped with scouting and stalkers. It has potential but it is much weaker then a 4 gate. And its not a build, its a strategy.
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On February 03 2011 02:08 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 02:01 Kralle333 wrote: The rush comes at around 6 min.
Can you guise name other rushes that comes around that time? It was there around 5 minutes. Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. he did not get 3 roaches first, he got 2 lings first.
Hm I'm at work and can't re-check the replay. Still you should be able to confirm the all-in by being smart w/ your probe because they won't have ling speed up, and I still believe a complete wall-in with 3 stalkers + 3 more on the way should be able to hold this rush easy and cannons aren't needed.
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I feel like the standard 3gate expand would work fine vs this. You can have around 6 sentrys out by the time this comes, so theres no way he can get into your base. Then just build up an army and ur fine.
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How the hell are you asking how to beat it when you didn't even scout it? You can easily stop this if you scout it coming
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I don't know if this has been said before but isn't this fucking ridiculously easy to counter? A friend who read this topic (before me) did this exact build on steppes of war (and he's even slightly faster with the exact same build due to steppes' close positions) and I just forcefield him forever.
This is very likely to be just a skill-related issue. What stopped you, in that exact game that you posted, from cancelling your 3rd sentry, chronoboosting your gateway as it is transforming into a warpgate and warping in a bunch of sentries? This is not theorycraft, you can check the replay. I can imagine you being confused or whatever in the game itself (well not really if you're 3200 and/or if he did it twice before) but really man?
An extra chrono on your c-core for warpgate technology or an impromptu chrono on the gateway as it was morphing and you would have been perfectly fine, there's nothing unbeatable about this build with gateway play - in fact, this was a free win for you. I also do not believe the guy with his '99% winrate'. I'm not playing at 3.2k level (I'm slightly higher) but damn son.
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This type of thing pops up every month or so with zerg.
Someone comes up with a build/idea that allows Zerg to make a strong 1 base push and everyone freaks out and then Zerg overuses it(10 pool speed ling, 5RR, 7RR), it becomes easy to identify and stop, and then we are back to where we were before. So before everyone freaks out like this will change some meta game, at the end of the day these types of builds leave Zerg so much further behind than the comparable builds of the other races(things like 4 gates, 2 rax, etc). Zerg players should farm some wins with this for the next week or two while they can.
I just remember after the build order creator came out and the 7RR was developed. It was "unstoppable." People freaked out... and then you never hear much about it again.
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On February 03 2011 02:21 FearTHeFrO wrote: I feel like the standard 3gate expand would work fine vs this. You can have around 6 sentrys out by the time this comes, so theres no way he can get into your base. Then just build up an army and ur fine. He was doing the 3gate expand and got stomped :S, it hits before you get all your sentrys out.
The problem for me is not the rush but rather Zerg just faking it and going pure eco, then you are left to blindly go cannon + forge then lose the eco war
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i watched the replay and it does seem like a build that would be pretty good on ladder for easy wins but when you where trying to hold your ramp with just a couple of units waiting for warpgates i think you should just spend the extra money and do a complete wall of with another gateway.
he sacrifices so much drones (it was around 24 probe vs 14 drones) doing this so you should easily be able to out macro him and i think that complete wall should hold until you get warpgates ready for the 4-5 number sentry to constantly keep ff up until you can go kill him.
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THANK YOU TRAVIS!!!!
Just by reading a few pages of this thead I can see how CRAZY hard it is for anyone to get a decent responses. The amount of bile that spews up is actually hilarious.
I have really learned something from this thead, which often hard, considering how much bs has to be sifted through
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On February 03 2011 02:17 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:36 BandonBanshee wrote: I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced
Of course not you play toss First post, which is a biased zerg whine. I fucking hate you. I'm so sick of people like you. Your race isn't weak, it is you who fucking suck at this game and cries about balance to have an excuse for loses. idra/ret fucking suck at this game?
but whatever, i think that the best way to deal with it is going to be getting walling with gates/pylons and make time until wg kicks in
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What about getting one zealot two stalkers instead of sentries when you scout the warren. You can harass his lings outside your base while they don't have speed upgraded and retreat when roaches comes. Have stalkers FF roaches from behind the wall/shoot at overlord when he's not engaging. And then build zealot to reinforce the block and stalker/zealot as needed?
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That is crazy! And you were on not close position! Imagine that on Steppes!!
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On February 02 2011 16:09 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:05 Let it Raine wrote: your conversation at the end of the replay annoyed me.
zergs complain because toss has many builds that require specific responses. You just scouted and made a sentry expecting 15 seconds to save the day. Maybe if you needed 15 seconds to get out something that could kill him, sure, but you just got out another sentry to waste everyones time for ANOTHER 15 seconds. A zerg one base all in that works, it's so unlikely that people can't stomach the thought of preparing in a suboptimal way to hold it off. (welcome to the life of a zerg) the difference is zergs can stop any build with units. and im oh so sorry i offended u mr zerg. do u notice how the zerg player laughs when i say that, he didn't seem offended did he? ur not gonna see me complaining about zerg even after this, because now i know how to deal with it. what's the excuse that zergs have?
becuase this is a build that you can scout 100% and defend 100%
its not 'ridiculously powerful' its just bad cheese, like building your Dark Shrine at the bottom of your ramp when you DT rush.
What Zergs complain about is that you cant scout for shit early game and have to account for 100 different openings, which Terran and Protoss don't.
Please stop talking about PvZ balance, you're literally the only guy i know that complains about PvZ and it's getting quite ridiculous.
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dude i think its pretty easy to stop it/ If zerg is 1 basing all u gotta is scout a roach warren. and drop ur forge immediately 2 cannons maybe 3 would be enough. Maybe a complete wallin too. Its not hard. Zerg at this point is very allin. One base zerg is basically an autolose if allin fails. I am a zerg myself and i used to practice builds like his. Just dont be afraid to drop a forge. Forge works against 5rr 7 rr and this type of rush too. Ur scout in the replay left without even looking around.
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On February 03 2011 02:31 Nik0 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 02:17 Huragius wrote:On February 03 2011 01:36 BandonBanshee wrote: I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced
Of course not you play toss First post, which is a biased zerg whine. I fucking hate you. I'm so sick of people like you. Your race isn't weak, it is you who fucking suck at this game and cries about balance to have an excuse for loses. idra/ret fucking suck at this game? but whatever, i think that the best way to deal with it is going to be getting walling with gates/pylons and make time until wg kicks in
Why the hell people keep involving pros into their unconstructive/biased whine posts ? In my eyes, you are just humiliating them by doing this.
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On February 03 2011 02:34 Rosvall wrote: What about getting one zealot two stalkers instead of sentries when you scout the warren. You can harass his lings outside your base while they don't have speed upgraded and retreat when roaches comes. Have stalkers FF roaches from behind the wall/shoot at overlord when he's not engaging. And then build zealot to reinforce the block and stalker/zealot as needed?
Without the Sentries the Lings wouldn't have been outside his base to begin with, and he'd only have one Stalker out with his Zealot by the time those first Roaches hit, which isn't enough to deal with them. What I'm wondering is how well this would've done if instead of the Zealot he'd thrown down a 2nd Gateway earlier and Boosted out as many Sentries as he could from both Gateways.
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On February 03 2011 02:45 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 02:31 Nik0 wrote:On February 03 2011 02:17 Huragius wrote:On February 03 2011 01:36 BandonBanshee wrote: I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced
Of course not you play toss First post, which is a biased zerg whine. I fucking hate you. I'm so sick of people like you. Your race isn't weak, it is you who fucking suck at this game and cries about balance to have an excuse for loses. idra/ret fucking suck at this game? but whatever, i think that the best way to deal with it is going to be getting walling with gates/pylons and make time until wg kicks in Why the hell people keep involving pros into their unconstructive/biased whine posts ? In my eyes, you are just humiliating them by doing this.
And you're humiliating yourself by randomly assaulting new posters ('I fucking hate you'). Please keep this on-topic, frankly I don't think anyone cares who you hate, you can exchange such sentiments per PM.
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Travis, I think you need to adjust the way you approach the game. If the Zerg goes out of his way to NOT go for the fast expand build, then you need to go out of your way to NOT play against the fast expand build. It's the same way as how if you scout a terran doing a 2 port banshee build, you need to not play against MMM. Only difference is you're not used to being forced to play as well in PvZ as in PvT, because you didn't need as much scouting against zerg before they came up with this build.
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On February 03 2011 02:50 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 02:45 Huragius wrote:On February 03 2011 02:31 Nik0 wrote:On February 03 2011 02:17 Huragius wrote:On February 03 2011 01:36 BandonBanshee wrote: I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced
Of course not you play toss First post, which is a biased zerg whine. I fucking hate you. I'm so sick of people like you. Your race isn't weak, it is you who fucking suck at this game and cries about balance to have an excuse for loses. idra/ret fucking suck at this game? but whatever, i think that the best way to deal with it is going to be getting walling with gates/pylons and make time until wg kicks in Why the hell people keep involving pros into their unconstructive/biased whine posts ? In my eyes, you are just humiliating them by doing this. And you're humiliating yourself by randomly assaulting new posters ('I fucking hate you'). Please keep this on-topic, frankly I don't think anyone cares who you hate, you can exchange such sentiments per PM.
That isn't a random assault. And yes, I do hate him, so what? Would you love a guy who had no self-respect ?
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On February 03 2011 01:22 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:19 Bair wrote:On February 03 2011 00:56 Umpteen wrote:On February 03 2011 00:50 Bair wrote: So I am going to have to mess around with evo chamber, because right now I am getting the third roach spawned at 4:48 with it, which is slower than the 7rr. Hmm. That's weird, because even with the 10 second delay incurred by the hatch-cancel I tested, my roaches were ready at 4:30. I desperately want to go check the original replay again now to make sure I'm right :D Nonono, I meant using evolution chamber (the zerg BO optimizer) the order I was getting got the third roach out on that timing. 4:20ish is when I was able to get it using the BO I just posted (which is a little different than the one in the first replay). Oh, so the evo chamber was giving you roaches at 4:48? Interesting. What other specifications did you supply, apart from the three roaches?
Hopefully you see this with all the shit slinging going on in the thread, but I set the final state to 2 lings (for the denial of scouting), 1 queen, metabolic boost, 12 drones, and 3 roaches. That gave me the 3rd roach at 4:48. I tried again with 14 drones and got it at 4:50 :/
That of course was all using those specs as a final state, not using the waypoint system since it gets kind of wonky with drone count if you do individual waypoints (wonky like 9 pool double extractor trick with a warren on 11). And from what testing I have done you can transition out of this with my BO or the original BO, but not these ones the optimizer is spitting out.
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takes 20 seconds of watching the replay to realise cannons rape this. takes a further 20 seconds to realise you can scout it and get cannons up before anything gets to your base. furthermore all this scouting is easily done by the first worker scout you send out. i do not get why a whine thread needed to be made at all.
i find the crying about the "probe sacrifice" laughable also. 1. no you dont need to sacrifice it just keep it running around the enemy base till something pops out that can kill it, like everyone else does. 2. zerg have to sacrifice overlords alla time so whining about such a thing comes off as pretty lame idd.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making.
When you scout such an early spawning pool (anything other than 14+) and an early roach warren (before lings), it is not ridiculous to get a forge. It isn't blind at all. Its very scoutable since the warren comes before lings and also the zerg cuts a huge number of drones. Terrans get bunkers up for all-in pushes all the time if they scout a 4gate.
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So I just had a fairly interesting experience playing against this build on shakuras plateau.
I was actually thinking about the build in question while I was playing, and was just building as per usual. I spot that he is obviously going for a roach rush, and I realize this would be a great example to see how my theorized build would work against it.
What comes at an amazing surprise to me, is that the attack actually is the exact same as listed in said thread. I did not use cannons, I did not pull probes.
If you watch the replay, you see the zerg hit at about 5:50. So obviously, it's later than the example given in the OP's replay. Ugh. So obviously a large difference here. HOWEVER, the second zealot that I use pops out at 5:30, only a marginal 10 seconds after the ideal 5:20. Had I perfectly done chronoboosting of course, it would've been at or before 5:20 ANYWAY. When you watch the battle... it's not even CLOSE. and when I say that, I mean I barely micro and I easily get out ahead.
The only reason why I wouldn't say its obvious the build is a counter, is because the zerg mis microes like 4 speedlings and a roach and makes the move-glitch into the ff, not shooting back for a moment. But if you think about it, I had warp gate complete while the battle was going on, and I DIDNT EVEN PULL PROBES YET. 10 probes would've made me won that battle losing ridiculously little.
So I realize some of you will say "LOL ZERG DIDN'T MICRO, THAT'S WHY U WINZ LIKE THAT LOLOL." But frankly, I didn't get hindered economically at all. I cut probes for a few moments to make sure key buildings (like second gateway) come out in time, but nothing that actually is major.
The rest of the game is obviously just clean up, I get really really lazy here, which is pretty stupid, considering I didn't out right win yet, but still, I was ahead by a LOT when that roach push was finished. For all those who are wondering, I LOL pretty hard when the attack comes, because I was thinking about the build the whole time when I was starting, and was wondering how a roach rush would compare, only to see it's exactly the same as this.
So my question is, if I can rofl stomp defend a not THAT well executed roach rush, without cannons, how would a well executed one make the difference, where I pull off 10 freaking probes to assist?
-------- EDIT: And I totally remember to put the link... COUGH http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133999-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateau My bad :D
RE-EDIT: And frankly the main thing I would like to point out, is I'm not sacrificing anything to stop the attack. If he doesn't rush me, I don't lose anything, except maybe 1/2 chrono boosts that could've gone on nexus. It's not like the mandatory forge ideas cropping up, where if zerg expands you're then placed at a huge disadvantage. Hell, the build I used was basically a variation on 3 gate robo.
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This build has a few variations that could be experimented with as zerg.
1) You could proxy the roach warren, delaying the build slightly, about 10-15 seconds.
2) You can open with a fake all in by copying the build order, and just making drones and expanding after the warren, canceling the roach warren after scouted. If they know about the build and how to stop it, this can work. If they have no clue how to stop it and are just playing standard, the fake will set you behind to any standard play.
3) Utilize a gas steal. This will limit sentry and sentry+stalker a bit during the rush timing.
4) Actually go ALL in by bringing drones along. Drone drill up the ramp to get past blocking zealot or force an early force field. Not sure on the timing of this for if it is worth it, but if the build has enough money for the zergling reinforcements, you could send all your drones to hit shortly before the roaches arrive. *Tested this once, if you send drones when roaches pop, you have about 250 minerals to spend on making 5 pairs of lings. If you send your queen after the first inject, it might get there depending on the map and positions. By the time it gets there it will have enough energy for transfuse.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On February 03 2011 03:00 imbs wrote: takes 20 seconds of watching the replay to realise cannons rape this. takes a further 20 seconds to realise you can scout it and get cannons up before anything gets to your base. furthermore all this scouting is easily done by the first worker scout you send out. i do not get why a whine thread needed to be made at all.
i find the crying about the "probe sacrifice" laughable also. 1. no you dont need to sacrifice it just keep it running around the enemy base till something pops out that can kill it, like everyone else does. 2. zerg have to sacrifice overlords alla time so whining about such a thing comes off as pretty lame idd.
Doesn't surprise me, travis has always been a whiner, he is the equivalent of avilo for protoss.
I think Darkforce's advice was the best.
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On February 03 2011 03:00 imbs wrote: takes 20 seconds of watching the replay to realise cannons rape this. takes a further 20 seconds to realise you can scout it and get cannons up before anything gets to your base. furthermore all this scouting is easily done by the first worker scout you send out. i do not get why a whine thread needed to be made at all.
i find the crying about the "probe sacrifice" laughable also. 1. no you dont need to sacrifice it just keep it running around the enemy base till something pops out that can kill it, like everyone else does. 2. zerg have to sacrifice overlords alla time so whining about such a thing comes off as pretty lame idd.
The thing about Zerg is that they can easily just not rush and crank out Drones instead. The Overlord was already in place to scout a Forge (which would've had to be in place of where the Core went) and then the Photon Cannons. Just make a few Zerglings or a Roach to deny scouting and macro up while he sits there wasting resources on static defense.
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On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off.
He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution.
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i lost to an all-in variation of this where he brought his queen and drones. I will have to try that next time i see it coming
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On February 03 2011 03:07 sas911 wrote:So I just had a fairly interesting experience playing against this build on shakuras plateau. I was actually thinking about the build in question while I was playing, and was just building as per usual. I spot that he is obviously going for a roach rush, and I realize this would be a great example to see how my theorized build would work against it. What comes at an amazing surprise to me, is that the attack actually is the exact same as listed in said thread. I did not use cannons, I did not pull probes. If you watch the replay, you see the zerg hit at about 5:50. So obviously, it's later than the example given in the OP's replay. Ugh. So obviously a large difference here. HOWEVER, the second zealot that I use pops out at 5:30, only a marginal 10 seconds after the ideal 5:20. Had I perfectly done chronoboosting of course, it would've been at or before 5:20 ANYWAY. When you watch the battle... it's not even CLOSE. and when I say that, I mean I barely micro and I easily get out ahead. The only reason why I wouldn't say its obvious the build is a counter, is because the zerg mis microes like 4 speedlings and a roach and makes the move-glitch into the ff, not shooting back for a moment. But if you think about it, I had warp gate complete while the battle was going on, and I DIDNT EVEN PULL PROBES YET. 10 probes would've made me won that battle losing ridiculously little. So I realize some of you will say "LOL ZERG DIDN'T MICRO, THAT'S WHY U WINZ LIKE THAT LOLOL." But frankly, I didn't get hindered economically at all. I cut probes for a few moments to make sure key buildings (like second gateway) come out in time, but nothing that actually is major. The rest of the game is obviously just clean up, I get really really lazy here, which is pretty stupid, considering I didn't out right win yet, but still, I was ahead by a LOT when that roach push was finished. For all those who are wondering, I LOL pretty hard when the attack comes, because I was thinking about the build the whole time when I was starting, and was wondering how a roach rush would compare, only to see it's exactly the same as this. So my question is, if I can rofl stomp defend a not THAT well executed roach rush, without cannons, how would a well executed one make the difference, where I pull off 10 freaking probes to assist? -------- And I totally remember to put the link... COUGH http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133999-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateauMy bad :D
Well it is a big difference on shakuras than other maps, personally this seems way too risky to try on shakuras.
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Played 8 games won 7, the one i lost, he pulled probes so my lings couldnt get in. and roach couldnt shoot the sentries as they were too far back... then he has time for more sentries / forcefield... got stopped.
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On February 03 2011 03:09 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution.
edit: ok i noticed my post is a little unorganized. i hope you get the point anyway.
I think you underestimate the economic sacrifice. Have you tested going cannons against this specific build? Im pretty sure you didnt. Furthermore, why dont you send a second scouting probe, lure the lings away with the first one and then run in with your second probe and check whether he built 3 roaches or not.
Its unbelievable how much uninformed shit is being spilled in this thread.
The only reason why people fail with this so hard is because they are not used to dealing with any kind of early aggression from zerg, so they started to slack super hard on their scouting - because it didnt matter anyway. Now you have to scout a little more thoroughly again, wow, big deal.
Its also funny how bad people are at observing. At first i didnt want to say this here, because i actually like the fact that i might be able to play this build against some protoss in a tournament who doesnt scout or doesnt look closely (for example, whitera sometimes doenst scout at all). Anyway, when you compare this build to a more normal build, you will notice that at 15 supply, no overlord is being build, but instead, the build goes roach warren, queen, zergling, overlord. this is a huge giveaway. this also means that this build is even farther behind in economy compared to a normal build than people think. which is the reason why i think that even if you do go forge +2 cans and then transition into for example a phoenix opening you wont be worse off compared to a normal game.
Furthermore, even IF you are behind if the cancels his roach warren, you have AT LEAST a 50% chance to win against his strategy (of either cancelling or not cancelling). This is assuming that you will win 100% if he does go for the allin and you built cannons. Because if he always cancels, there is no reason to go for a forge, and then you are far ahead.
From a game theory perspective, winning with at least 50% chance is a pretty good result. I say "at least" because i think the chance of you winning after going forge + cannons against the cancel seems to be higher than him winning with his allin against cannons.
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Also this build get owned hard if he goes 2 gate robo then a pylon to wall off while your units are reinforcing.
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On February 03 2011 03:14 Treemonkeys wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 03:07 sas911 wrote:So I just had a fairly interesting experience playing against this build on shakuras plateau. I was actually thinking about the build in question while I was playing, and was just building as per usual. I spot that he is obviously going for a roach rush, and I realize this would be a great example to see how my theorized build would work against it. What comes at an amazing surprise to me, is that the attack actually is the exact same as listed in said thread. I did not use cannons, I did not pull probes. If you watch the replay, you see the zerg hit at about 5:50. So obviously, it's later than the example given in the OP's replay. Ugh. So obviously a large difference here. HOWEVER, the second zealot that I use pops out at 5:30, only a marginal 10 seconds after the ideal 5:20. Had I perfectly done chronoboosting of course, it would've been at or before 5:20 ANYWAY. When you watch the battle... it's not even CLOSE. and when I say that, I mean I barely micro and I easily get out ahead. The only reason why I wouldn't say its obvious the build is a counter, is because the zerg mis microes like 4 speedlings and a roach and makes the move-glitch into the ff, not shooting back for a moment. But if you think about it, I had warp gate complete while the battle was going on, and I DIDNT EVEN PULL PROBES YET. 10 probes would've made me won that battle losing ridiculously little. So I realize some of you will say "LOL ZERG DIDN'T MICRO, THAT'S WHY U WINZ LIKE THAT LOLOL." But frankly, I didn't get hindered economically at all. I cut probes for a few moments to make sure key buildings (like second gateway) come out in time, but nothing that actually is major. The rest of the game is obviously just clean up, I get really really lazy here, which is pretty stupid, considering I didn't out right win yet, but still, I was ahead by a LOT when that roach push was finished. For all those who are wondering, I LOL pretty hard when the attack comes, because I was thinking about the build the whole time when I was starting, and was wondering how a roach rush would compare, only to see it's exactly the same as this. So my question is, if I can rofl stomp defend a not THAT well executed roach rush, without cannons, how would a well executed one make the difference, where I pull off 10 freaking probes to assist? -------- And I totally remember to put the link... COUGH http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133999-1v1-protoss-zerg-shakuras-plateauMy bad :D Well it is a big difference on shakuras than other maps, personally this seems way too risky to try on shakuras.
Well what's the difference? Again, the timing as I mentioned in the post though way later, doesn't actually matter in the fact that my second zealot pops at 5:30. I could've used my first sentry and did 1 ff to just completely block, waiting for zealot, and had enough energy to ff again anyway/
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On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well.
no, with the way i play i'd easily hold it off with sentries. but anyways yes, as multiple people have told me the problem is i need to scout the roach warren at the proper timing and adapt.
however i do still think the build is overpowered, as many builds in sc2 are, and it would be very very easy to lose to a modified version of this once ur first 2 probes die to 2-4 speedlings. also a good player could just build the roach warren and then cancel it and ur gonna be behind if u try to build cannons.
that said, u won't find me crying imba about it anymore. not like that was some big deal anyways I didn't insult the guy or anything I just said that the strategy is imbalanced. and it's not like there AREN'T imbalanced allin strategies in sc2 that are too easy to do for the possible reward.
On February 03 2011 01:54 gnurk wrote: well im gonna bring up an importent point:
1: artosis now plays protoss
2: artosis havent whined about this build
3: artosis whines about anything even near "hard to stop"
from these 3 points i can tell u this build either doesn't excist, or is easy to handle
this is probably the best post in the thread btw
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I don't think its imba at all... toss: pull probes, most of them along with a zealot, at the choke, lings can't get in and the toss just chips away with 2 sentries + stalker. Just lost vs a toss who did that.
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On February 03 2011 03:24 valckrie wrote: I don't think its imba at all... toss: pull probes, most of them along with a zealot, at the choke, lings can't get in and the toss just chips away with 2 sentries + stalker. Just lost vs a toss who did that.
He only had a Zealot and 2 Sentries out by the time he ran out of Force Fields, and the Zealot couldn't do any walling because the Roaches were picking it off using the Overlord spotting.
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Well, I don't know about how to stop this because A: I'm terrible and B: I play Zerg (btw: thanks I'll probably copy this build shamelessly).
It seems to me there were two keys to the replay you shared: - His roach warren went down while your probe was ON his creep (but sitting there near the ramp... it didn't scout it it just left) - He can't see the top of your ramp without that overlord.
Scouting probably didn't matter... because you said you knew it was coming, but it's still worth mentioning.
I think I would take my chances trying to pick off that overlord before it can see the ramp, if you want to try to maintain the same build you used in that matchup. It seems others with a better idea have already posted some ideas.
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Now I just think of it more like a normal rush.. No need to go all crazy over it and whine imba and all that. Seriously as proven by replay above, defending this without cannon is very easy, and pulling probes isn't that extensive.
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All the things that TC says are unreasonable are done by Zergs every game. Saccing units for scouting, looking for small details to gain knowledge of a build, halting all production/doing whatever possible to stop an incoming all in etc. What was shown in the replay is quite strong if unscouted, just like tons of other builds. Only difference is that this one is way easier to scout then others and in no way deserves a thread this huge.
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On February 03 2011 03:01 calvinL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making. When you scout such an early spawning pool (anything other than 14+) and an early roach warren (before lings), it is not ridiculous to get a forge. It isn't blind at all. Its very scoutable since the warren comes before lings and also the zerg cuts a huge number of drones. Terrans get bunkers up for all-in pushes all the time if they scout a 4gate.
bunkers don't require a building that costs 150 and does nothing in the early game, and bunkers can be salvaged. honestly...
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Alot of the sentiment i'm seeing here is that you shouldn't need to heavily alter your build or sacrifice a worker for additional intel when you scout the possibility of early aggression.
The problem i'm seeing though is that's essentially how zerg needs to play against protoss, and even then alot of what it comes down to is making an educated guess based upon my limited intel & knowledge of timings. If I think a 1 gas 4 warpgate rush is coming, my build must be altered radically. Drones must be stopped, crawlers must be built, and you need to basically build nothing but lings in the interim. If i'm wrong, and the rush never comes (or it's a different rush), my punishment is severe. I invested a huge sum into defense against a particular strategy that isn't actually coming.
Alot of protoss players have gotten far too used to 9 pylon, 13-14 gate, CC, and building nothing but probes and 1-2 defending units in the early game. When your opponent is going to be attacking you YOU are the one that needs to be reactive, sometimes radically so, and oftentimes without perfect knowledge of what's coming.
That isn't a new phenomenon to starcraft, to be fair.
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/facepalm
scout at 20 no expo.
zerg is 1 basing.
never scout again.
just chrono probes pretty much.
zerg all ins 14 workers vs 24 workers.
you control your few units poorly
clearly unstoppable.
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it really comes down to being more active in scouting. if the zerg doesn't throw down a hatch between 14-22 you should know he is 1 basing and throw down a 4th gateway as it gets pretty dicey on just 3 gateways against all ins
the 3gate expo build you were going for is inherently economically focused so you should use your first 2 cb's on probes and the rest should be put on warpgate research and units, regardless of what you scout. while it is true that warpgate would not finish by the time the all in comes, you should have 2 sentries out at that time; you only had one
minor things i'd point out would be the fact that you 9scouted and 13gated. if you 9 scout you need to 14gate to continue probe production with 2 cb's on nexus before gateway. if you are getting all inned don't be afraid to throw up a pylon to block off speedlings. it's true that roaches can hit it but you are just buying time til your warpgates finish or you can get another sentry out.
this build does look pretty dangerous though.
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Did the OP just say he would lose 2 scouting probes to speedlings? ru kidding me?
You do know that speed upgrade is finished at the time of the attack, right? Whine all you want, but don't say overtly false things like that.
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Forge isn't the answer, it puts you behind against Zerg for many reasons.
The build simply seems really strong against zeal/sentry openings, but not against stalkers. I think you already know after having this thread take off what is good vs it and what is not. Your sentry and your zealot took more damage than they should have, and I think you can see that force field doesn't really help if you don't do damage.
I have certain things that I do vs. warren/no hatch and hatch first openings, and I saw your probe around his natural so you knew he didn't expand. That was probably a red flag to you but your response (getting sentries) was improper
Good luck!
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I mean this as politely as possible, but I get some satisfaction in seeing a high level protoss player struggle with a zerg all in :D. Its a nice change in role reversal. If the 4 warp gate rush is considered a balanced part of the game then this must be too. If you don't scout it and don't alter your build to defend it you will loose, the same way a zerg will if they don't start massing early to prepare for a 4 gate. A few cannons probably would have shut it down fairly easily. You "shouldn't" have to build cannons and completely abandon a macro build for a while to stop the rush, but in this case looks like you do.
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When the lings come, pull all your probes along with zealot (save it from roach) and warp in 1 stalker which stays out of range of the roach, chipping at it while the probe + zeaot + sentry stop the lings from coming in. Once they are in you've lost.
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Just a random thought on the whole "cancel roach warren, expo and drone hard" - wouldn't this be easy to prevent if you just put a pylon down a the natural? I realize that the 100 minerals are a pretty steep price to pay, but let's say he goes for the all-in, it would just slow him down to shoot down the pylon instead of just going for it....or am I totally wrong on this one.
@Darkforce: although I agree with pretty much everything, if there indeed IS NO COST EFFICIENT RESPONSE to an early roach warren, then this build order would be imbalanced indeed. Winning/losing 50/50 just by guessing can't be the answer in a competitive strategy game.
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I gotta say I find it funny that people keep telling me I played badly vs it or that it is easy to stop (which obviously I could play better after discussing some theory, and you're right I didn't want to alter my build drastically if I could help it). And yet zerg after zerg comes in saying that they try it and they win over and over with it.
It's pretty easy to criticize other people huh. I guess tt1 and cruncher suck too. It's like the sensationalist title (which was the point) is a calling for assholes to come in and criticize a player who's better than them anyways. I know I suck but jesus 98% of you suck worse.
It's just a build that requires drastic action as far as modifying your build, and I didn't take drastic enough action, and now I know better.
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On February 03 2011 03:18 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote:On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well. no, with the way i play i'd easily hold it off with sentries. but anyways yes, as multiple people have told me the problem is i need to scout the roach warren at the proper timing and adapt. however i do still think the build is overpowered, as many builds in sc2 are, and it would be very very easy to lose to a modified version of this once ur first 2 probes die to 2-4 speedlings. also a good player could just build the roach warren and then cancel it and ur gonna be behind if u try to build cannons. that said, u won't find me crying imba about it anymore. not like that was some big deal anyways I didn't insult the guy or anything I just said that the strategy is imbalanced. and it's not like there AREN'T imbalanced allin strategies in sc2 that are too easy to do for the possible reward. Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:54 gnurk wrote: well im gonna bring up an importent point:
1: artosis now plays protoss
2: artosis havent whined about this build
3: artosis whines about anything even near "hard to stop"
from these 3 points i can tell u this build either doesn't excist, or is easy to handle this is probably the best post in the thread btw
..................
if u get speedlings to deny scouting of the roach warren its a shit build and you can even 4gate him before he gets roaches out. (ling speed finishes at 5.00, first 4gate warp in happens at 5:45)
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On February 03 2011 03:34 jacksonlee wrote: Did the OP just say he would lose 2 scouting probes to speedlings? ru kidding me?
You do know that speed upgrade is finished at the time of the attack, right? Whine all you want, but don't say overtly false things like that.
oh i see what ur saying. well read my reply right below this one
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Point of Interest perhaps, scBuildOrder generator shows that you could get this exact 6 minute zerg unit composition much earlier, but it wouldnt be effective because the roaches come out last and the zerglings first.
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On February 03 2011 03:39 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:18 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 21:11 Plexa wrote:On February 02 2011 20:19 DarKFoRcE wrote: Try to go for 12 Gate and have a Probe standing at the spot where you want to build the core when the gate is finished. This saves you a couple of seconds. Furthermore, scout his main again (dunno why you didnt do this) before speed is finished. Also, you used all your chronoboost on warpgate. Have you tried using it all on sentries?
Also, when you DO scout his main again and you see the super fast roach warren and the very few drones, there is really nothing wrong with building a forge and maybe 2 cannons.
You could also completely wall off at the top of the ramp once you see his roaches, that gives the building enough time to warpin almost completely, and as he only has few roaches (you see how many he has), he cant kill buildings super fast.
lol @ the chat at the end. There really isn't anything more that needs to be said on the matter. DarKFoRcE nailed it. I don't know how you hold off 7RR with your build Travis I'm sure if you played the same as you did in that game you would die to that as well. no, with the way i play i'd easily hold it off with sentries. but anyways yes, as multiple people have told me the problem is i need to scout the roach warren at the proper timing and adapt. however i do still think the build is overpowered, as many builds in sc2 are, and it would be very very easy to lose to a modified version of this once ur first 2 probes die to 2-4 speedlings. also a good player could just build the roach warren and then cancel it and ur gonna be behind if u try to build cannons. that said, u won't find me crying imba about it anymore. not like that was some big deal anyways I didn't insult the guy or anything I just said that the strategy is imbalanced. and it's not like there AREN'T imbalanced allin strategies in sc2 that are too easy to do for the possible reward. On February 03 2011 01:54 gnurk wrote: well im gonna bring up an importent point:
1: artosis now plays protoss
2: artosis havent whined about this build
3: artosis whines about anything even near "hard to stop"
from these 3 points i can tell u this build either doesn't excist, or is easy to handle this is probably the best post in the thread btw .................. if u get speedlings to deny scouting of the roach warren its a shit build and you can even 4gate him before he gets roaches out. (ling speed finishes at 5.00, first 4gate warp in happens at 5:45)
i mean normal lings, not speedlings. he'll be getting speed but at that point it's just normal lings. clearly they are normal lings. normal lings catch probes just fine. why do u guys have to be nitpicky dicks
so i accidentally typed speedlings when they are still normal lings. CLEARLY THATS WHAT I MEAN. god
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I'm pretty sure this is the same build. Seems pretty easy to defend with 1 gas 3 gate (transition to 4 gate)
Although on LT it's much easier to defend than metal I'm sure
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i don't think lt/metal makes a difference really since it hits before ~6:20 which is when the 3gate expo is establishing the natural
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I dont see the big deal. Z has to worry about like 4 1-base builds from toss and we have like 1 thats been working recently and everyone is in an uproar.
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On February 03 2011 03:18 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:09 kcdc wrote:On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution. edit: ok i noticed my post is a little unorganized. i hope you get the point anyway. I think you underestimate the economic sacrifice. Have you tested going cannons against this specific build? Im pretty sure you didnt. Furthermore, why dont you send a second scouting probe, lure the lings away with the first one and then run in with your second probe and check whether he built 3 roaches or not. Its unbelievable how much uninformed shit is being spilled in this thread. The only reason why people fail with this so hard is because they are not used to dealing with any kind of early aggression from zerg, so they started to slack super hard on their scouting - because it didnt matter anyway. Now you have to scout a little more thoroughly again, wow, big deal. Its also funny how bad people are at observing. At first i didnt want to say this here, because i actually like the fact that i might be able to play this build against some protoss in a tournament who doesnt scout or doesnt look closely (for example, whitera sometimes doenst scout at all). Anyway, when you compare this build to a more normal build, you will notice that at 15 supply, no overlord is being build, but instead, the build goes roach warren, queen, zergling, overlord. this is a huge giveaway. this also means that this build is even farther behind in economy compared to a normal build than people think. which is the reason why i think that even if you do go forge +2 cans and then transition into for example a phoenix opening you wont be worse off compared to a normal game. Furthermore, even IF you are behind if the cancels his roach warren, you have AT LEAST a 50% chance to win against his strategy (of either cancelling or not cancelling). This is assuming that you will win 100% if he does go for the allin and you built cannons. Because if he always cancels, there is no reason to go for a forge, and then you are far ahead. From a game theory perspective, winning with at least 50% chance is a pretty good result. I say "at least" because i think the chance of you winning after going forge + cannons against the cancel seems to be higher than him winning with his allin against cannons.
Unless Z screwed up, Z still has his scouting probe in P's base when P has to make the decision to cannon or not to cannon. You're suggesting that you have a 50% chance to guess right (Z either all-ins, or goes econ), but if Z is smart, he just responds to what P does.
And I do understand that going 13 pool, 12 gas and roach warren + queen as soon as pool finishes is an economic set-back for Z, but if P builds cannons, Z has a looooong period where he's free to drone his heart out. If the only way to defend were to get cannons, faking an early roach warren would be an effective way to rule out zealot/stalker pressure and 4 gate. Z will be way ahead if P bites on the fake and gets 2 cannons, and if P doesn't cannon, Z can go ahead with the all-in.
I actually think this could be defended with zealots, so I'm not crying imbalance here. I just think that cannons are a losing strategy because the scouting information you can reasonably count on getting is not enough to tell you whether Z is truly all-in. And if Z is not all-in, cannons will put you behind.
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I've faced this a couple of times (Protoss master league) and if you scout it fast enough a forge works very well to stop it. Just stop mining gas, put up a canon or two + wall in and you will be fine. However, you need to scout the roach warren being dropped instantly.
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Enough flaming already, everyones come to the agreement that additional scouting is needed to make the appropriate decision/reaction. Travis has backtracked on his earlier statements about losing his scouting probe. Tough build to stop, but now we know what to look for.
It's allllllll good
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On February 03 2011 03:38 travis wrote: I gotta say I find it funny that people keep telling me I played badly vs it or that it is easy to stop (which obviously I could play better after discussing some theory, and you're right I didn't want to alter my build drastically if I could help it). And yet zerg after zerg comes in saying that they try it and they win over and over with it.
It's pretty easy to criticize other people huh. I guess tt1 and cruncher suck too. It's like the sensationalist title (which was the point) is a calling for assholes to come in and criticize a player who's better than them anyways. I know I suck but jesus 98% of you suck worse.
It's just a build that requires drastic action as far as modifying your build, and I didn't take drastic enough action, and now I know better.
Nuh-uh you suck worse.
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Dude, I thing you lost because you bo was bad. Also, this build is vulnerable to early chronoboosted stalkers.
What I would do to stop this would be to make a second gate after the cybercore and while the first zealot is being built. Stop chronoboosting probes, and chronoboost the shit out of the UNITS not the warpgate technology, because it will not be out in time.
I mean, after you scout it, its pretty easy to handle it.
And you really need stalkers because of the range. Like, maybe one sentry, them only stalkers.
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When the attacke came you had 21 to 14 workers so when you see a zerg all in you can get a forge+cannons knowing that your ahead
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On February 03 2011 03:38 travis wrote: I gotta say I find it funny that people keep telling me I played badly vs it or that it is easy to stop (which obviously I could play better after discussing some theory, and you're right I didn't want to alter my build drastically if I could help it). And yet zerg after zerg comes in saying that they try it and they win over and over with it.
It's pretty easy to criticize other people huh. I guess tt1 and cruncher suck too. It's like the sensationalist title (which was the point) is a calling for assholes to come in and criticize a player who's better than them anyways. I know I suck but jesus 98% of you suck worse.
It's just a build that requires drastic action as far as modifying your build, and I didn't take drastic enough action, and now I know better.
Dude, that was the most obvious cheese. It's like losing to a 2 gate in PvT and whining that it is overpowered because you will never win without a wall
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On February 03 2011 03:42 arterian wrote:I'm pretty sure this is the same build. Seems pretty easy to defend with 1 gas 3 gate (transition to 4 gate) Although on LT it's much easier to defend than metal I'm sure
Catz did a build with a similar idea, but it was muuuuch slower. Most importantly, he delayed his roach warren and his queen after his pool finished for no reason, slowing down the attack substantially. Travis's sentry expand build would have held that attack easily because he would have been able to get enough sentries to continuously forcefield. Catz also went gas before pool which got him zergling speed a lot earlier than he actually used it. Pool first would get his queen and roach warren up earlier. Because of the delays on his pool, queen and roach warren, Catz was also unable to spend his minerals and was floating ~300 while macroing off of 13 drones.
The end result was an attack of the same size, but about 30 seconds later. Catz is a good player, but I'm guessing that was one of his first times testing that timing. He was a long way away from an optimal 3 roach + speedling all-in.
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Im not as good as you so this might be completly wrong, but if you scouted the super fast roach warren and the 1 base chrono boosting units instead of warpgate tech might have helped you out has a couple more and split the army in half with a force feild.
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i mean normal lings, not speedlings. he'll be getting speed but at that point it's just normal lings. clearly they are normal lings. normal lings catch probes just fine. why do u guys have to be nitpicky dicks
so i accidentally typed speedlings when they are still normal lings. CLEARLY THATS WHAT I MEAN. god
You need to calm down. When you make a relatively inflammatory post you're inviting a certain level of skepticism and nit.....pickiness.
Back on topic though, normal lings are faster than probes slightly off creep, signifigantly on creep. It's not unreasonable to leave with the probe once you see the pool finish and eyeball how many larvae just started morphing, and then return 30-60 seconds later. There is no real chance that 2 slow lings off creep are going to end your probe before he gets back in there.
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I knew someone would find a catz version of this
He's experimented with so much, theres no way he hasn't tried it
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As usual, Darkforce gets it. Only people who don't play zergs can not understand how cheesy and allinish this is.
Well, at least maybe protoss can now join zergs in wanting better maps
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Is it possible to rework the positioning of your wall so the gap where the zealot sits is more central, away from the edges and prevents the sniping of the zealot(s) with the roaches from the low ground?
Obviously this means he can still plug away at your buildings, but better that than the walling zealot. If he moves up to the high ground to attack the zealot then the FFs become more effective in splitting his forces.
Just a suggestion, sorry if its bollocks, I am a mere platinum idiot and only play zerg.
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I can't say I'm a terribly good player, but a friend and I just played 10 ZvPs in a row with this build. We found that going 10 gate, two pylons in the wall-off, and a more stalker heavy mix with only one sentry was the best way to hold off the rush. The idea was to trap the roaches in a FF if possible and focus the stalkers on the roaches. If the three roaches go down without the front wall being compromised, the rush basically fails.
The 10-gate and faster warpgate upgrade hurts your early economy a bit, but is more safe against any type of early zerg cheese. Plus, if the zerg plays standard, your faster gateway lets you send a zealot and stalker to apply pressure and force lings before speed goes up. I don't know if any of this would hold true for higher levels of play, but it worked pretty well for a couple of diamond scrubs.
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once you saw that you weren't going to have another FF and they were going to breach, you obv couldn't hold with just a zealot and 2 sentries, so throw down another gateway to complete the wall off. It would take a while for lings and 3 roaches to breach the wall and by then you've warped in quite a gateway army.
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things i observe, ur gas is too late, u dont make a sentry for at least 10-15 seconds ( main issue ) and you dont chrono out units. ur 3rd gateway was very late and to hold cheese there's no room for error sadly.
basically, chrono out units and 4gate him he's cutting drone production to do this attack.
im rewatching this, you make a lot of errors in your build order ( probe timings ) ( cyber timings ) ( gate timings) and pylon timings and you mess up chrono timings too.
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On February 03 2011 03:33 gustavo wrote:/facepalm scout at 20 no expo. zerg is 1 basing. never scout again. just chrono probes pretty much. zerg all ins 14 workers vs 24 workers. you control your few units poorly clearly unstoppable. Don't understand what you're trying to say here. And clearly you're blind in the sense that I see his whole army, realizing that he's going for the same build as mentioned in the this thread, with my second probe. If you're going to criticize someone, at least see the obvious scouts.
Further more control few units poorly? How? What did you want me to do, focus fire lings with zealots and make sure not one unit freaking dies? It was simple defense, and no amount of micro would've made a difference, Zealots in front to mash lings, stalkers at back to range the sht out of everything, ff ramp and win the game. I'm sorry I didn't use 200 apm to block a ramp.
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I think his build was just bad. My 3gate expand build can hold this off. I can get 3 forcefields off and then my warpgate finishes and i warp in 3 more sentrys. But his build he only had 2 sentrys. So I think his build was just a little bad so it caused it to look imbalanced when its really not.
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Can I commend Travis for not getting too pissed of with some of the replys. At this level of play I don't really know what I'm talking enough to comment, so I won't. A choice that a lot of other people possibly should have taken.
As a pretty bad player myself all I can say is losing the probe for scouting doesn't seem to bad and thats already been covered.
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just by using the term "impossible" you take a simple request for feedback and turn it into a firestorm, was it really necessary to title the post like that? Perhaps it's impossible to hold off with the build you used, I could see that, but you don't seem to be trying to make that your main point. I also see that you used the dreaded "imba" term a lot as well at the end there, is there really a need for that to come into play when you've only lost to it 3 times? Cheer up, and why bother with page after page of this?
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought all Roach Rush builds require that the protoss player gets cannons to fend it off. I didn't think there was another way to do it. I thought the second you see a zerg 1base and grab a roach warren, your forge should go down immediately.
Kind of like it's impossible to fend off a cannon rush without spinecrawlers (Assuming you didn't kill the pylon). This is why static defense is in the game.
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Your units are not on hold position zerglings have no trouble running thru two sentries and a zealot not even on hold position
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On February 03 2011 04:42 Dubz wrote: Your units are not on hold position zerglings have no trouble running thru two sentries and a zealot not even on hold position
oh i didn't realize they had to be on hold position. i don't understand the basis for that. why are opponents units able to push my units out of the way, that doesn't seem like a good aspect to the game at all -.-
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probably because the commands dont specifically contradict each other. This is a strange case because there isn't any other way for the lings to get around, unlike an open-landscape battle where the lings AI will auto-avoid the sentries instead of pushing them. That's interesting to note, either bugged here or is actually the way the mechanic works. would be nice to know if it applies everywhere (i.e. placing a stalker in a mineral line gap without being on hold position and seeing if lings push it out of the way)
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After reading the topic a zerg friend played several games against me using this build (we're both around 2750 master). A solution that worked for me, which has already been found, was to build another gateway to close the wall completely.
I went zealot, sentry, sentry, with 3 gates, classic build, and used the two forcefields to prevent zerglings from destroying the wall too quickly. That gave me enough time to warp some stalkers, once the zerg managed to break the wall i had enough units to hold the push.
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On February 03 2011 04:46 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 04:42 Dubz wrote: Your units are not on hold position zerglings have no trouble running thru two sentries and a zealot not even on hold position oh i didn't realize they had to be on hold position. i don't understand the basis for that. why are opponents units able to push my units out of the way, that doesn't seem like a good aspect to the game at all -.-
Holy crap. With all due respect travis, how did you become so high-ranked if you didn't know that units had to be on hold position to not get pushed by enemy units? If you don't put them on hold position then they can get baited by enemy units too..have you not ever been juked by a zerg before?
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i don't think that would've changed anything. i really can't think of any way to stop that other than blindly doing something which you've already pointed out is retarded and could possibly be preparing for the attack that "might" be there. i'd be careful would throwing imbalanced around because i think this would work with a lot of early stuff, you might just have to make drastic changes but i just can't think of anything that isn't going to shit on you if he just expands and drones, lol. would have to watch the replay more from zergs POV to see what he's actually cutting maybe? =\
stumped honestly =\ get a zerg buddy and crank out 10-15 games vs this.
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i think your question has been answered travis, time to close the thread?
the sensationalist title sure gave it a lot of activity.
On February 03 2011 05:03 Xanbatou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 04:46 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 04:42 Dubz wrote: Your units are not on hold position zerglings have no trouble running thru two sentries and a zealot not even on hold position oh i didn't realize they had to be on hold position. i don't understand the basis for that. why are opponents units able to push my units out of the way, that doesn't seem like a good aspect to the game at all -.- Holy crap. With all due respect travis, how did you become so high-ranked if you didn't know that units had to be on hold position to not get pushed by enemy units? If you don't put them on hold position then they can get baited by enemy units too..have you not ever been juked by a zerg before?
:D
The strategy forum in its full glory.
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Tbh that zerg build is kind of cool
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On February 03 2011 05:03 Xanbatou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 04:46 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 04:42 Dubz wrote: Your units are not on hold position zerglings have no trouble running thru two sentries and a zealot not even on hold position oh i didn't realize they had to be on hold position. i don't understand the basis for that. why are opponents units able to push my units out of the way, that doesn't seem like a good aspect to the game at all -.- Holy crap. With all due respect travis, how did you become so high-ranked if you didn't know that units had to be on hold position to not get pushed by enemy units? If you don't put them on hold position then they can get baited by enemy units too..have you not ever been juked by a zerg before?
uh, i always put my units on hold position when i can. but in the game i had to move my units to go meet the lings at the choke and try to get there first, which they did. tbh i probably did put them on hold position at that point but maybe it was just too late. "holy crap".
also, why would that even be important information. why would it be important information to know that units have to be on hold position to keep enemy units from running through them. i doubt i have EVER needed to know that up until this game. and also it is just stupid that that's in the game.
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On February 03 2011 05:17 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 05:03 Xanbatou wrote:On February 03 2011 04:46 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 04:42 Dubz wrote: Your units are not on hold position zerglings have no trouble running thru two sentries and a zealot not even on hold position oh i didn't realize they had to be on hold position. i don't understand the basis for that. why are opponents units able to push my units out of the way, that doesn't seem like a good aspect to the game at all -.- Holy crap. With all due respect travis, how did you become so high-ranked if you didn't know that units had to be on hold position to not get pushed by enemy units? If you don't put them on hold position then they can get baited by enemy units too..have you not ever been juked by a zerg before? uh, i always put my units on hold position when i can. but in the game i had to move my units to go meet the lings at the choke and try to get there first, which they did. tbh i probably did put them on hold position at that point but maybe it was just too late. "holy crap". also, why would that even be important information. why would it be important information to know that units have to be on hold position to keep enemy units from running through them. i doubt i have EVER needed to know that up until this game. and also it is just stupid that that's in the game.
Oh okay. Nevermind then, your post just made it seem like you never hold position your units, which would be astounding for a player of your level. That's the only reason I was surprised.
Umm, its important information because its the very basis of walling-off with a zealot? Otherwise it's extremely easy to just run lings past it and into the base. Has that never happened to you before? :S
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On February 03 2011 05:22 Xanbatou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 05:17 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 05:03 Xanbatou wrote:On February 03 2011 04:46 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 04:42 Dubz wrote: Your units are not on hold position zerglings have no trouble running thru two sentries and a zealot not even on hold position oh i didn't realize they had to be on hold position. i don't understand the basis for that. why are opponents units able to push my units out of the way, that doesn't seem like a good aspect to the game at all -.- Holy crap. With all due respect travis, how did you become so high-ranked if you didn't know that units had to be on hold position to not get pushed by enemy units? If you don't put them on hold position then they can get baited by enemy units too..have you not ever been juked by a zerg before? uh, i always put my units on hold position when i can. but in the game i had to move my units to go meet the lings at the choke and try to get there first, which they did. tbh i probably did put them on hold position at that point but maybe it was just too late. "holy crap". Oh okay. Nevermind then, your post just made it seem like you never hold position your units, which would be astounding for a player of your level. That's the only reason I was surprised.
hahaha naw, that'd be incredible if i made it to that level without hold positioning my units.
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skip the zelot and just get 3 sentery and try that maybe lol
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so my useful post was skipped completely? I see.
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On February 03 2011 05:34 Kefka.dancingmad wrote: so my useful post was skipped completely? I see.
no It was read and appreciated I just don't want to reply to literally every post
oh some mod changed my title
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On February 03 2011 02:25 the p00n wrote: I don't know if this has been said before but isn't this fucking ridiculously easy to counter? A friend who read this topic (before me) did this exact build on steppes of war (and he's even slightly faster with the exact same build due to steppes' close positions) and I just forcefield him forever.
This is very likely to be just a skill-related issue. What stopped you, in that exact game that you posted, from cancelling your 3rd sentry, chronoboosting your gateway as it is transforming into a warpgate and warping in a bunch of sentries? This is not theorycraft, you can check the replay. I can imagine you being confused or whatever in the game itself (well not really if you're 3200 and/or if he did it twice before) but really man?
An extra chrono on your c-core for warpgate technology or an impromptu chrono on the gateway as it was morphing and you would have been perfectly fine, there's nothing unbeatable about this build with gateway play - in fact, this was a free win for you. I also do not believe the guy with his '99% winrate'. I'm not playing at 3.2k level (I'm slightly higher) but damn son.
Did anyone actually read my post? This 'new' zerg build dies to a simple 3gate expand if you chrono the warpgate technology 3 times or chrono the gateway transforming into a warpgate. Why would you make cannons?
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On February 03 2011 03:45 kcdc wrote: Unless Z screwed up, Z still has his scouting probe in P's base when P has to make the decision to cannon or not to cannon. You're suggesting that you have a 50% chance to guess right (Z either all-ins, or goes econ), but if Z is smart, he just responds to what P does.
And I do understand that going 13 pool, 12 gas and roach warren + queen as soon as pool finishes is an economic set-back for Z, but if P builds cannons, Z has a looooong period where he's free to drone his heart out. If the only way to defend were to get cannons, faking an early roach warren would be an effective way to rule out zealot/stalker pressure and 4 gate. Z will be way ahead if P bites on the fake and gets 2 cannons, and if P doesn't cannon, Z can go ahead with the all-in.
I actually think this could be defended with zealots, so I'm not crying imbalance here. I just think that cannons are a losing strategy because the scouting information you can reasonably count on getting is not enough to tell you whether Z is truly all-in. And if Z is not all-in, cannons will put you behind.
Yea keep in mind that at the time P needs to decide to go for cannons, Queen has popped out so if the scouting Z drone sees cannons being made Z can just make drones from the larvae produced by vomit, closing the harvester cap significantly. Also the P can't really scout whether or not the push is actually coming, making it quite easy to expand for Z.
This seems to be a zerg build that puts pressure on your opponent and thus giving you chance to expand, instead of usual zerg builds where you expand first and then need to defend for a long time.
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Protoss tears about not being able to completely thwart any early zerg aggression = tasty.
Why is is supposed to be fair that Zerg bases are completely open to attack the entire game, but 'toss and terran can wall off and tech or do whatever they want with impunity?
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On February 03 2011 05:37 the p00n wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 02:25 the p00n wrote: I don't know if this has been said before but isn't this fucking ridiculously easy to counter? A friend who read this topic (before me) did this exact build on steppes of war (and he's even slightly faster with the exact same build due to steppes' close positions) and I just forcefield him forever.
This is very likely to be just a skill-related issue. What stopped you, in that exact game that you posted, from cancelling your 3rd sentry, chronoboosting your gateway as it is transforming into a warpgate and warping in a bunch of sentries? This is not theorycraft, you can check the replay. I can imagine you being confused or whatever in the game itself (well not really if you're 3200 and/or if he did it twice before) but really man?
An extra chrono on your c-core for warpgate technology or an impromptu chrono on the gateway as it was morphing and you would have been perfectly fine, there's nothing unbeatable about this build with gateway play - in fact, this was a free win for you. I also do not believe the guy with his '99% winrate'. I'm not playing at 3.2k level (I'm slightly higher) but damn son. Did anyone actually read my post? This 'new' zerg build dies to a simple 3gate expand if you chrono the warpgate technology 3 times or chrono the gateway transforming into a warpgate. Why would you make cannons?
I read it, one of the few informative posts in here. (along with darkforce's)
Unfortunately posts like yours get drowned by the sheer masses of people that don't know shit.
If there was a masters only forum we would have a thorough response on how to fend this all-in off in the first 2 pages, but alas, this isnt the place for me to talk about stuff that isnt in my hands.
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Only diamond here but what about instead starting your wall-in on the low ground. Then when you see one base play, you get 3 cannons automatically. Difference is that these 3 cannons now protect your natural so are not completely useless like they would be if they were at the top of your ramp.
Obviously depends on map and will need an appropriate sim-city.
Also to all the zerg being smug, protoss need to hold of stuff like this without cannons as they cannot be moved like spinecrawlers can or salvaged like bunkers can. 3 cannons at top of ramp means that you will never be able to have enough to defend your natural. Zerg can just expand and make sure they deny your natural expo.
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On February 03 2011 02:56 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 01:22 Umpteen wrote:On February 03 2011 01:19 Bair wrote:On February 03 2011 00:56 Umpteen wrote:On February 03 2011 00:50 Bair wrote: So I am going to have to mess around with evo chamber, because right now I am getting the third roach spawned at 4:48 with it, which is slower than the 7rr. Hmm. That's weird, because even with the 10 second delay incurred by the hatch-cancel I tested, my roaches were ready at 4:30. I desperately want to go check the original replay again now to make sure I'm right :D Nonono, I meant using evolution chamber (the zerg BO optimizer) the order I was getting got the third roach out on that timing. 4:20ish is when I was able to get it using the BO I just posted (which is a little different than the one in the first replay). Oh, so the evo chamber was giving you roaches at 4:48? Interesting. What other specifications did you supply, apart from the three roaches? Hopefully you see this with all the shit slinging going on in the thread, but I set the final state to 2 lings (for the denial of scouting), 1 queen, metabolic boost, 12 drones, and 3 roaches. That gave me the 3rd roach at 4:48. I tried again with 14 drones and got it at 4:50 :/
Ah. I think I've spotted the problem (not your fault, merely a limitation of the evo chamber): you specified that metabolic boost should be finished.
When the roaches pop in the original replay, MB isn't finished. It finishes as the roaches are in transit. What the evo chamber has given you is the fastest way to get three roaches to spawn with MB already done, which isn't the fastest way to get 3 roaches at your opponent's base with MB done.
Seems like it would be useful to add an option to evochamber to say "have had 3 roaches for XX seconds" rather than "have 3 roaches"
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On February 03 2011 03:18 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:09 kcdc wrote:On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution. edit: ok i noticed my post is a little unorganized. i hope you get the point anyway. I think you underestimate the economic sacrifice. Have you tested going cannons against this specific build? Im pretty sure you didnt. Furthermore, why dont you send a second scouting probe, lure the lings away with the first one and then run in with your second probe and check whether he built 3 roaches or not. Its unbelievable how much uninformed shit is being spilled in this thread. The only reason why people fail with this so hard is because they are not used to dealing with any kind of early aggression from zerg, so they started to slack super hard on their scouting - because it didnt matter anyway. Now you have to scout a little more thoroughly again, wow, big deal. Its also funny how bad people are at observing. At first i didnt want to say this here, because i actually like the fact that i might be able to play this build against some protoss in a tournament who doesnt scout or doesnt look closely (for example, whitera sometimes doenst scout at all). Anyway, when you compare this build to a more normal build, you will notice that at 15 supply, no overlord is being build, but instead, the build goes roach warren, queen, zergling, overlord. this is a huge giveaway. this also means that this build is even farther behind in economy compared to a normal build than people think. which is the reason why i think that even if you do go forge +2 cans and then transition into for example a phoenix opening you wont be worse off compared to a normal game. Furthermore, even IF you are behind if the cancels his roach warren, you have AT LEAST a 50% chance to win against his strategy (of either cancelling or not cancelling). This is assuming that you will win 100% if he does go for the allin and you built cannons. Because if he always cancels, there is no reason to go for a forge, and then you are far ahead. From a game theory perspective, winning with at least 50% chance is a pretty good result. I say "at least" because i think the chance of you winning after going forge + cannons against the cancel seems to be higher than him winning with his allin against cannons.
This isnt necessarily directed at darkforce, but i wanted to use your post as a jumping off point
While I appreciate and understand your use of the larva use order as a means to justify a setback to the zerg. I think you may be overlooking a less than mathematical aspect of the game from that point forward. Sinking 600 minerals to defend an attack that might not happen delays any possibility of aggression from the protoss for an extremely long time. Since the threat of aggression is so far off suddenly due specifically to your choice to open this way... your decision of whether or not this larva will become a drone or a combat unit becomes substantially easier. More likely than not, it will be a drone knowing you are completely safe.
This delay in the ability to move out of your base as the protoss segues into my next point. There are obviously different phases in the game for map control and both players are constantly vying for map control and to regain map control, etc. Zerg get free map control early on with a couple overlords and some really quick and inexpensive combat units. To combat this the protoss will either make a sentry based army to ensure a safe retreat if you run into problems OR phoenix/VR (each operate differently in their role to obtain midgame map control). Now phoenix can give you SOME control and mobility, but basically what a phoenix based map control attempt does for you is show you a bunch of shit all over the map (expansions/creep spread/what have you) that you cant do anything about. Its tantamount to getting your observer into their base to see that a cloaked banshee just arrived at yours... All your doing is getting a glimpse and what is going to kill you sooner or later. 600 minerals in a forge and 3 cannons along with the delay in tech and expansion allows the zerg (or any race really that scouted you have such a defensive posture) to cut into this period of time where protoss can gain map control. Essentially you are skipping the early-midgame phase where protoss has a chance to seize map control back before the possible mutas hit or the creep has spread like crazy.
Having said all that, I am happy that this build has surfaced... I've actually seen this style quite a few times but none so precise as the one in this replay. I think we protoss got too used to zergs being predictable.... and they really are. Builds like this help the game more than they hurt the game and make it more dynamic. While I think roaches are a little too efficient for their cost (ive always felt 100/25 would be appropriate for their relative power and high hp) i do think there are some do's and don'ts in dealing with zerg in these first 5 minutes..
1) Do keep your probe in their base until a queen pops or lings pop. Your probe might live... might die... regardless of either... the information its giving you is worth the 50 minerals and production time, etc. Even if you are just seeing what kills it. I'm surprised you arent doing this anyways... I make sure 100% of the time that I see either lings or a queen before i try to escape because no matter what build hes doing how can you be sure those arent just more drones? The simple fact that he built lings covers some of the cost of losing that scout. If he sees you leave before he makes lings he can just make a drone with that larva instead. You are actually worse off in that situation than if you just let his lings kill you.
2) Do BUILD STALKERS if you see a roach warren. Regardless of whether its 7RR or this roach/ling all in... Protoss got so used to this 3 gate sentry expand. Its a great build... I love it... i used it in 90% of my PvZ games... but just be flexible... if they GAS steal you... another reason to build more stalkers and less sentries. If they gas steal you I would expect roaches to be honest. Start making logical conclusions if you cant see exactly what theyre doing. You might be wrong sometimes and it might put you behind and you might lose due to that... but you aren't learning ANYTHING by not making those theoretical leaps. There is alot of discovery to be done in those theoretical leaps whether you are wrong or not.
3) Don't rely on sentries to defend a 1 base all in from zerg. With OL sight range, sentries plain suck at defending against this type of thing. They can be good, but dont rush to get a ton, they dont make you invincible.
4) Don't be afraid to lose probes for information... To do so is assuming that you and your opponent are so evenly matched that even 1 probe can change the outcome of the game. Sometimes that is the case, but in EVERY game you should always assume you are a stronger player and that you will respond to what you see in a way that makes sense even if it doesnt work out.
all in all i think it was unreasonable on your part build a second sentry and that was mainly due to poor scouting. If you knew he would do it a third time... all the less reason to build the second sentry. Having said that, you tried it, it didnt work... and it wont work. Its not the correct response. I agree cannon is not the correct response either. Getting a fast +1 can help mitigate the setback you imposed on yourself... but overall you will be behind the zerg that sees the forge with his OL and decides to just not all-in. Its always better to defend with units when possible because units move (duh).
Earlier 2nd gate, more stalkers, delay third gate to ensure constantly produce units and chrono gateways instead of warpgates. Additionally, scout better. If you scout an indicator that hes not expanding quick, (saving larva for instance), get fewer sentries and more stalkers. The stalkers are crucial but its by no means a slam dunk. Basically hes cutting workers at 14, youve spent another 500 minerals on workers that he put towards units. His army should be about 500 minerals stronger than yours as such... why should your army win? scout. extrapolate. learn from the poorer extrapolations you make. improve.
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hello
i watched the replay and read the first couple of pages, i admit i didn't had the time to read all of it so i don't know what conclusion was drawn, if any... but it just happened to me on the ladder.
i knew all the zergs will be trying it so when i scouted the pretty fast pool first and no hatch afterwards i knew that this was it
i am only 2.2k diamond so it may not be against the best zerg and my micro isn't stellar, but i think my build can hold it
first of all i always go 10 gate against zerg, regardless of my future plan, its safer for me even if i lose some early econ i manage to destroy all the early nonsense
the 4 gate build i went is quite fast, usually i have my warpgate research done at about 5.00 so i managed to hold it with my first units and some probes.. i knew i had more probes than him, maybe not so much as travis did... but i could sacrifice some of them
again this is not at all an econ build but i suspected the all in from him and i wanted to be as fast as i can with my warpgates
http://www.mediafire.com/?7p1n3t9qdsvjiyd
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hum, i faced this allin today in ladder. Dont know, if the zerg do it very well. But, i scout the roach warren, and thats the crucial thing, after seeing the roach warren, you should instantly cronoboost warpgate research and warp some stalkers in. Its low diamond (2.6k) but eventually it helps
http://www.mediafire.com/?9joma9bk9mgky9w
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i just lose to this 30 minutes ago..
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On February 03 2011 06:39 methoD. wrote:hum, i faced this allin today in ladder. Dont know, if the zerg do it very well. But, i scout the roach warren, and thats the crucial thing, after seeing the roach warren, you should instantly cronoboost warpgate research and warp some stalkers in. Its low diamond (2.6k) but eventually it helps http://www.mediafire.com/?9joma9bk9mgky9w
Just so you know, his execution was very sloppy. If that was executed properly, you would have lost imo.
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How does this build fare against a terran?
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You can improve the build a bit: 11 overpool 12 gas 15 queen 17 roach warren 16 ling 17 speed 17 ov 17 3 roach -> take drone off gas 23 ov mass lings
The earlier pool is not there for an earlier roach (you don't have the gas for it) but for an earlier queen. Roach warren is at 2:57, the same time as for the op build, but inject comes much sooner. You have to take drone off gas to afford the lings earlier.
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On February 03 2011 06:29 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:18 DarKFoRcE wrote:On February 03 2011 03:09 kcdc wrote:On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution. edit: ok i noticed my post is a little unorganized. i hope you get the point anyway. I think you underestimate the economic sacrifice. Have you tested going cannons against this specific build? Im pretty sure you didnt. Furthermore, why dont you send a second scouting probe, lure the lings away with the first one and then run in with your second probe and check whether he built 3 roaches or not. Its unbelievable how much uninformed shit is being spilled in this thread. The only reason why people fail with this so hard is because they are not used to dealing with any kind of early aggression from zerg, so they started to slack super hard on their scouting - because it didnt matter anyway. Now you have to scout a little more thoroughly again, wow, big deal. Its also funny how bad people are at observing. At first i didnt want to say this here, because i actually like the fact that i might be able to play this build against some protoss in a tournament who doesnt scout or doesnt look closely (for example, whitera sometimes doenst scout at all). Anyway, when you compare this build to a more normal build, you will notice that at 15 supply, no overlord is being build, but instead, the build goes roach warren, queen, zergling, overlord. this is a huge giveaway. this also means that this build is even farther behind in economy compared to a normal build than people think. which is the reason why i think that even if you do go forge +2 cans and then transition into for example a phoenix opening you wont be worse off compared to a normal game. Furthermore, even IF you are behind if the cancels his roach warren, you have AT LEAST a 50% chance to win against his strategy (of either cancelling or not cancelling). This is assuming that you will win 100% if he does go for the allin and you built cannons. Because if he always cancels, there is no reason to go for a forge, and then you are far ahead. From a game theory perspective, winning with at least 50% chance is a pretty good result. I say "at least" because i think the chance of you winning after going forge + cannons against the cancel seems to be higher than him winning with his allin against cannons. This isnt necessarily directed at darkforce, but i wanted to use your post as a jumping off point While I appreciate and understand your use of the larva use order as a means to justify a setback to the zerg. I think you may be overlooking a less than mathematical aspect of the game from that point forward. Sinking 600 minerals to defend an attack that might not happen delays any possibility of aggression from the protoss for an extremely long time. Since the threat of aggression is so far off suddenly due specifically to your choice to open this way... your decision of whether or not this larva will become a drone or a combat unit becomes substantially easier. More likely than not, it will be a drone knowing you are completely safe. This delay in the ability to move out of your base as the protoss segues into my next point. There are obviously different phases in the game for map control and both players are constantly vying for map control and to regain map control, etc. Zerg get free map control early on with a couple overlords and some really quick and inexpensive combat units. To combat this the protoss will either make a sentry based army to ensure a safe retreat if you run into problems OR phoenix/VR (each operate differently in their role to obtain midgame map control). Now phoenix can give you SOME control and mobility, but basically what a phoenix based map control attempt does for you is show you a bunch of shit all over the map (expansions/creep spread/what have you) that you cant do anything about. Its tantamount to getting your observer into their base to see that a cloaked banshee just arrived at yours... All your doing is getting a glimpse and what is going to kill you sooner or later. 600 minerals in a forge and 3 cannons along with the delay in tech and expansion allows the zerg (or any race really that scouted you have such a defensive posture) to cut into this period of time where protoss can gain map control. Essentially you are skipping the early-midgame phase where protoss has a chance to seize map control back before the possible mutas hit or the creep has spread like crazy. Having said all that, I am happy that this build has surfaced... I've actually seen this style quite a few times but none so precise as the one in this replay. I think we protoss got too used to zergs being predictable.... and they really are. Builds like this help the game more than they hurt the game and make it more dynamic. While I think roaches are a little too efficient for their cost (ive always felt 100/25 would be appropriate for their relative power and high hp) i do think there are some do's and don'ts in dealing with zerg in these first 5 minutes.. 1) Do keep your probe in their base until a queen pops or lings pop. Your probe might live... might die... regardless of either... the information its giving you is worth the 50 minerals and production time, etc. Even if you are just seeing what kills it. I'm surprised you arent doing this anyways... I make sure 100% of the time that I see either lings or a queen before i try to escape because no matter what build hes doing how can you be sure those arent just more drones? The simple fact that he built lings covers some of the cost of losing that scout. If he sees you leave before he makes lings he can just make a drone with that larva instead. You are actually worse off in that situation than if you just let his lings kill you. 2) Do BUILD STALKERS if you see a roach warren. Regardless of whether its 7RR or this roach/ling all in... Protoss got so used to this 3 gate sentry expand. Its a great build... I love it... i used it in 90% of my PvZ games... but just be flexible... if they GAS steal you... another reason to build more stalkers and less sentries. If they gas steal you I would expect roaches to be honest. Start making logical conclusions if you cant see exactly what theyre doing. You might be wrong sometimes and it might put you behind and you might lose due to that... but you aren't learning ANYTHING by not making those theoretical leaps. There is alot of discovery to be done in those theoretical leaps whether you are wrong or not. 3) Don't rely on sentries to defend a 1 base all in from zerg. With OL sight range, sentries plain suck at defending against this type of thing. They can be good, but dont rush to get a ton, they dont make you invincible. 4) Don't be afraid to lose probes for information... To do so is assuming that you and your opponent are so evenly matched that even 1 probe can change the outcome of the game. Sometimes that is the case, but in EVERY game you should always assume you are a stronger player and that you will respond to what you see in a way that makes sense even if it doesnt work out. all in all i think it was unreasonable on your part build a second sentry and that was mainly due to poor scouting. If you knew he would do it a third time... all the less reason to build the second sentry. Having said that, you tried it, it didnt work... and it wont work. Its not the correct response. I agree cannon is not the correct response either. Getting a fast +1 can help mitigate the setback you imposed on yourself... but overall you will be behind the zerg that sees the forge with his OL and decides to just not all-in. Its always better to defend with units when possible because units move (duh). Earlier 2nd gate, more stalkers, delay third gate to ensure constantly produce units and chrono gateways instead of warpgates. Additionally, scout better. If you scout an indicator that hes not expanding quick, (saving larva for instance), get fewer sentries and more stalkers. The stalkers are crucial but its by no means a slam dunk. Basically hes cutting workers at 14, youve spent another 500 minerals on workers that he put towards units. His army should be about 500 minerals stronger than yours as such... why should your army win? scout. extrapolate. learn from the poorer extrapolations you make. improve.
If you actually think roaches should be 100/25 you're insane. The roach is only strong in the early game and eary mid game before protoss gets massive ammounts of sentries, or collosus, or void rays. After that roaches just get decimated by proper use of FF and Collosus, and making them more expensive would only exacerbate the problem.
And it should also be noted that while roaches can be strong early game, if you get them early game, your economy is completely screwed and you pretty much auto-lose if you don't do serious damage with them, which is why this kind of all-in strategy isn't seen that frequently by zerg players.
I'd much rather have the power of the 4 gate over this build.
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On February 03 2011 07:00 JoeCrow wrote: How does this build fare against a terran?
It would die to 1 bunker, 1 marine, and scv repair..
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It should also be noted that the Zerg who did this build didn't do it nearly as optimally as he could have. he should have taken drones off mining gas after getting ling speed and making 3 roaches, which would have put him in a far better economic position if it failed or only did marginal damage.
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On February 03 2011 03:42 arterian wrote:I'm pretty sure this is the same build. Seems pretty easy to defend with 1 gas 3 gate (transition to 4 gate) Although on LT it's much easier to defend than metal I'm sure
no its not you silly boy, I didnt want to play, so I was gonna go for a proxy hatch in plain sight, as you can see my minerals pile up to 300 early on, and my drone can't hatch so i just go back to my base and try to all in asap.
I was playing RANDOM, so the last race I wanted to get was ZERG. im glad you're an acomplished progamer, but you did not beat the strategy that's talked about in this thread, sorry.
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Hey just faced this on the ladder,
[url blocked]
THATS HOW YOU DO ITTTTTTT :D
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On February 03 2011 07:11 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 06:29 Jayrod wrote:On February 03 2011 03:18 DarKFoRcE wrote:On February 03 2011 03:09 kcdc wrote:On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution. edit: ok i noticed my post is a little unorganized. i hope you get the point anyway. I think you underestimate the economic sacrifice. Have you tested going cannons against this specific build? Im pretty sure you didnt. Furthermore, why dont you send a second scouting probe, lure the lings away with the first one and then run in with your second probe and check whether he built 3 roaches or not. Its unbelievable how much uninformed shit is being spilled in this thread. The only reason why people fail with this so hard is because they are not used to dealing with any kind of early aggression from zerg, so they started to slack super hard on their scouting - because it didnt matter anyway. Now you have to scout a little more thoroughly again, wow, big deal. Its also funny how bad people are at observing. At first i didnt want to say this here, because i actually like the fact that i might be able to play this build against some protoss in a tournament who doesnt scout or doesnt look closely (for example, whitera sometimes doenst scout at all). Anyway, when you compare this build to a more normal build, you will notice that at 15 supply, no overlord is being build, but instead, the build goes roach warren, queen, zergling, overlord. this is a huge giveaway. this also means that this build is even farther behind in economy compared to a normal build than people think. which is the reason why i think that even if you do go forge +2 cans and then transition into for example a phoenix opening you wont be worse off compared to a normal game. Furthermore, even IF you are behind if the cancels his roach warren, you have AT LEAST a 50% chance to win against his strategy (of either cancelling or not cancelling). This is assuming that you will win 100% if he does go for the allin and you built cannons. Because if he always cancels, there is no reason to go for a forge, and then you are far ahead. From a game theory perspective, winning with at least 50% chance is a pretty good result. I say "at least" because i think the chance of you winning after going forge + cannons against the cancel seems to be higher than him winning with his allin against cannons. This isnt necessarily directed at darkforce, but i wanted to use your post as a jumping off point While I appreciate and understand your use of the larva use order as a means to justify a setback to the zerg. I think you may be overlooking a less than mathematical aspect of the game from that point forward. Sinking 600 minerals to defend an attack that might not happen delays any possibility of aggression from the protoss for an extremely long time. Since the threat of aggression is so far off suddenly due specifically to your choice to open this way... your decision of whether or not this larva will become a drone or a combat unit becomes substantially easier. More likely than not, it will be a drone knowing you are completely safe. This delay in the ability to move out of your base as the protoss segues into my next point. There are obviously different phases in the game for map control and both players are constantly vying for map control and to regain map control, etc. Zerg get free map control early on with a couple overlords and some really quick and inexpensive combat units. To combat this the protoss will either make a sentry based army to ensure a safe retreat if you run into problems OR phoenix/VR (each operate differently in their role to obtain midgame map control). Now phoenix can give you SOME control and mobility, but basically what a phoenix based map control attempt does for you is show you a bunch of shit all over the map (expansions/creep spread/what have you) that you cant do anything about. Its tantamount to getting your observer into their base to see that a cloaked banshee just arrived at yours... All your doing is getting a glimpse and what is going to kill you sooner or later. 600 minerals in a forge and 3 cannons along with the delay in tech and expansion allows the zerg (or any race really that scouted you have such a defensive posture) to cut into this period of time where protoss can gain map control. Essentially you are skipping the early-midgame phase where protoss has a chance to seize map control back before the possible mutas hit or the creep has spread like crazy. Having said all that, I am happy that this build has surfaced... I've actually seen this style quite a few times but none so precise as the one in this replay. I think we protoss got too used to zergs being predictable.... and they really are. Builds like this help the game more than they hurt the game and make it more dynamic. While I think roaches are a little too efficient for their cost (ive always felt 100/25 would be appropriate for their relative power and high hp) i do think there are some do's and don'ts in dealing with zerg in these first 5 minutes.. 1) Do keep your probe in their base until a queen pops or lings pop. Your probe might live... might die... regardless of either... the information its giving you is worth the 50 minerals and production time, etc. Even if you are just seeing what kills it. I'm surprised you arent doing this anyways... I make sure 100% of the time that I see either lings or a queen before i try to escape because no matter what build hes doing how can you be sure those arent just more drones? The simple fact that he built lings covers some of the cost of losing that scout. If he sees you leave before he makes lings he can just make a drone with that larva instead. You are actually worse off in that situation than if you just let his lings kill you. 2) Do BUILD STALKERS if you see a roach warren. Regardless of whether its 7RR or this roach/ling all in... Protoss got so used to this 3 gate sentry expand. Its a great build... I love it... i used it in 90% of my PvZ games... but just be flexible... if they GAS steal you... another reason to build more stalkers and less sentries. If they gas steal you I would expect roaches to be honest. Start making logical conclusions if you cant see exactly what theyre doing. You might be wrong sometimes and it might put you behind and you might lose due to that... but you aren't learning ANYTHING by not making those theoretical leaps. There is alot of discovery to be done in those theoretical leaps whether you are wrong or not. 3) Don't rely on sentries to defend a 1 base all in from zerg. With OL sight range, sentries plain suck at defending against this type of thing. They can be good, but dont rush to get a ton, they dont make you invincible. 4) Don't be afraid to lose probes for information... To do so is assuming that you and your opponent are so evenly matched that even 1 probe can change the outcome of the game. Sometimes that is the case, but in EVERY game you should always assume you are a stronger player and that you will respond to what you see in a way that makes sense even if it doesnt work out. all in all i think it was unreasonable on your part build a second sentry and that was mainly due to poor scouting. If you knew he would do it a third time... all the less reason to build the second sentry. Having said that, you tried it, it didnt work... and it wont work. Its not the correct response. I agree cannon is not the correct response either. Getting a fast +1 can help mitigate the setback you imposed on yourself... but overall you will be behind the zerg that sees the forge with his OL and decides to just not all-in. Its always better to defend with units when possible because units move (duh). Earlier 2nd gate, more stalkers, delay third gate to ensure constantly produce units and chrono gateways instead of warpgates. Additionally, scout better. If you scout an indicator that hes not expanding quick, (saving larva for instance), get fewer sentries and more stalkers. The stalkers are crucial but its by no means a slam dunk. Basically hes cutting workers at 14, youve spent another 500 minerals on workers that he put towards units. His army should be about 500 minerals stronger than yours as such... why should your army win? scout. extrapolate. learn from the poorer extrapolations you make. improve. If you actually think roaches should be 100/25 you're insane. The roach is only strong in the early game and eary mid game before protoss gets massive ammounts of sentries, or collosus, or void rays. After that roaches just get decimated by proper use of FF and Collosus, and making them more expensive would only exacerbate the problem. And it should also be noted that while roaches can be strong early game, if you get them early game, your economy is completely screwed and you pretty much auto-lose if you don't do serious damage with them, which is why this kind of all-in strategy isn't seen that frequently by zerg players. I'd much rather have the power of the 4 gate over this build.
Forcefields dont exclusively own roaches. Forcefields own everything that isnt flying, massive, or have movable burrow. You can go all roaches and overkill on corruptors and just overrun a collossus based army. Some zergs do this, some zergs dont.. .the good zergs do, the mediocre zergs dont. In fact roaches are so incredibly efficient they can actually ignore incoming damage at times and focus fire key targets, burrow and heal...A roach hydra corruptor build actually needs very few hydras to actually work. I cant tell you how many times ive seen both firsthand and watching top players just get overhwelmed because forcefields last 15 seconds and well... roaches have to die.
People act like the reason zergs struggle is due to their weaker units... thats not it at all. The struggle specifically deals with how the zerg economy works and zerg struggles when their opponents are able to do actual damage (whether thats due to forcing them to make units or actually killing things). It doesn't have much to do with the units themselves.
Maybe its not the cost, maybe they should have 5 or 10 less hp, but its just my personal opinion that they are over the top in terms of efficiency and my personal opinion probably wont affect patching in any way.
People cling to this idra mentality that zerg is so weak but they are doing quite well in every league and tournaments when you factor in how many people actually play zerg. GSL qualifiers are just one other example. 13 zerg 13 terran 6 protoss. Zerg armies are very very efficient.
Here's my compromise. Roaches either lose 10 hp or cost slightly more minerals and you increase hydra speed off creep a bit. I feel like hydras off creep could be slightly faster and it would promote more diversity as well as attack options for zerg midgame.
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On February 03 2011 07:22 CatZ.root wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:42 arterian wrote:I'm pretty sure this is the same build. Seems pretty easy to defend with 1 gas 3 gate (transition to 4 gate) Although on LT it's much easier to defend than metal I'm sure no its not you silly boy, I didnt want to play, so I was gonna go for a proxy hatch in plain sight, as you can see my minerals pile up to 300 early on, and my drone can't hatch so i just go back to my base and try to all in asap. I was playing RANDOM, so the last race I wanted to get was ZERG. im glad you're an acomplished progamer, but you did not beat the strategy that's talked about in this thread, sorry.
Hah, I couldn't figure out why you piled up 300 minerals. Makes sense now.
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On February 03 2011 07:22 CatZ.root wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 03:42 arterian wrote:I'm pretty sure this is the same build. Seems pretty easy to defend with 1 gas 3 gate (transition to 4 gate) Although on LT it's much easier to defend than metal I'm sure no its not you silly boy, I didnt want to play, so I was gonna go for a proxy hatch in plain sight, as you can see my minerals pile up to 300 early on, and my drone can't hatch so i just go back to my base and try to all in asap. I was playing RANDOM, so the last race I wanted to get was ZERG. im glad you're an acomplished progamer, but you did not beat the strategy that's talked about in this thread, sorry. Someone's insecure...
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Just a few notes if you're plan is 3gate sentry expand, Your core is ~5 seconds late. You usually build a 2nd gas before zealot with this build. Your sentry is ~13 seconds late because you don't have enough gas to start it on time.
You have several bumps in probe production because you don't have the money to constantly produce them.
1 second after gateway 3 seconds after gas 3 seconds after second pylon 1 second after core 1 second after second gas 11 seconds after warpgate tech 5 seconds after 2nd/3rd gateway
This might seem super nitpicky but as each chronoboost gives you an extra 10 seconds of production time thats over 2 chronoboosts of wasted production time.
So basically if you: - place your core on time - only chrono boost your nexus once - constantly build probes from your nexus (this part requires pretty good worker micro actually) - build a 2nd gas before zealot - chrono boost out the zealot - chrono boost out the first sentry
You end up with the exact same everything except you have an extra sentry and a second forcefield on your first sentry.
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im ok with roaches being 100/25 if they require only one supply and start with the speed they get after upgrade
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On February 03 2011 07:31 Kefka.dancingmad wrote: Hey just faced this on the ladder,
[url blocked]
THATS HOW YOU DO ITTTTTTT :D
...when they build their roach warren 25 seconds after the pool pops, yeah, that's how you do it.
If he had done roach warren as soon as pool done, his roaches would reach your zealot just as the 2nd and 3rd gateway finish warping in, and you only have 1 zealot, 1 sentry, and 1 stalker, and only enough energy to forcefield once, witch about 10-15 energy left before you could forcefield again, meaning the roaches kill the zealot with spotter overlord, and zerglings run up after forcefield is down, and then its lings vs 3 stalkers.
This replay shows how small the timing really is for the rush, you can't delay it at all or its completely worthless.
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On February 03 2011 07:12 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 07:00 JoeCrow wrote: How does this build fare against a terran? It would die to 1 bunker, 1 marine, and scv repair..
a 7RR expand can catch an unsuspecting Terran offguard since they kill sooo many SCVs even if they dont break through (this happened to SjoW vs Nerchio (and he did scout lol))
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On February 03 2011 07:59 Jaeger wrote: Just a few notes if you're plan is 3gate sentry expand, Your core is ~5 seconds late. You usually build a 2nd gas before zealot with this build. Your sentry is ~13 seconds late because you don't have enough gas to start it on time.
You have several bumps in probe production because you don't have the money to constantly produce them.
1 second after gateway 3 seconds after gas 3 seconds after second pylon 1 second after core 1 second after second gas 11 seconds after warpgate tech 5 seconds after 2nd/3rd gateway
This might seem super nitpicky but as each chronoboost gives you an extra 10 seconds of production time thats over 2 chronoboosts of wasted production time.
So basically if you: - place your core on time - only chrono boost your nexus once - constantly build probes from your nexus (this part requires pretty good worker micro actually) - build a 2nd gas before zealot - chrono boost out the zealot - chrono boost out the first sentry
You end up with the exact same everything except you have an extra sentry and a second forcefield on your first sentry.
Wow, this is really helpful. Thanks!
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One thing worth trying might be to build your wall-off slightly differently such that the choke is inbetween the cyber and the gate. By doing this, it might be possible to FF the ramp such that the zelaot cannot be attacked from the ground as it is in the replay. FYI, it requires 3 structures to do this wall off
This isn't a solution, but a possible way to deal maybe?
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I beat two protoss with a sloppy version of this build in gold this morning. The first one I expanded behind the attack, it delayed his colossus stalker deathball long enough to have broodlords, the second Player just rage quit after my lings arrived in his base and started attacking my own roach (missclick) . I think it's a nice build to avoid the 4 gate or zealot sentry poke or any of that annoying business that usually beat me.
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Lol I really don't understand why everyone on ladder does this. It happens every time a new abusive build is posted on team liquid, and then the race uses it over and over until the victim race learns to counter the gimmick. It leads to no skill increase, nothing more than points earned from a cheese which I don't understand being satisfying. Well, time to mess around in AI games to see the timings of what I can do, so I can get tons of free wins from every zerg trying this. Same with 7RR, once I learned how to defend it it always become a fairly easy win for me unless I make some retarded mistake one in ten games.
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in the replay the zerg has 3 roaches and 24 speedlings at the enemy protoss base at 5:30
i have come to the conclusion that this build is COMPLETELY UNBEATABLE by protoss unless he does 1 of 2 things right when he scouts the roach warren
1) make cannons in time. most toss wont do this, and there are options for the zerg to baneling bust this properly
2) completely wall with 4gates quickly upon scouting this build which stops the lings from coming in because they have to destroy a gateway first while the stalkers shoot at them
most protoss will not do any of those 2 things, meaning for all the zergs out there if you copy the build in the replay it will give you FREE WINS against EVERY PROTOSS PLAYER (even master protoss players) until it catches on that the above are the 2 counters
and i dont even think cannons properly counter this. when a zerg scouts forge+cannon he can use the next inject on 4 drones and get 2gas baneling bust which probably will beat the cannons
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Wzp was on LA server and has been the top 1 for some weeks (as zerg), but he isn't anymore, maybe you should ask the protoss tops on LA (FkcXypheR, Potiguar), maybe they already figured that out?
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Could you post of a replay of you beating this? As a toss, it would be nice to know how to beat this w/o cannons...
thank you ~1k dia toss
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terran got the two raxs protoss got the 4 warp gate and has zerg this i dont see anything wrong o.o
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zerg dont expo => full chrono warp. Then you have to rely on sentry (4-5) and stalkers to shot overlords/roach/... Most all in's (p-t-z) are countered by 3gate with chrono.
You can also make gate cyber forge if you are not sure that you will ff perfectly.
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Not that hard if i see a zerg going 1base anything Just 4gate while chrono on your gateways with stalkers, not very hard throw a pylon down instead of the zealot to complete your wall. Its basically the idea of 1base toss> 1 base zerg so just go with your strongest 1base build, i figure most toss are used to barely holding a rush between PvP 4gates and PvT fast conc shells
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im a noob so take this as a grain of salt. Since stalkers don't work well against speedlings, you could alter your wall, if you know it is coming and go gateway-forge-pylon, so that stalkers can't get out and zealots can, with the pylon covering the small hole between the gateway and the forge,which would be on both sides of the ramp, and make cannons behind that wall. you would have to destroy the pylon later, and stalkers could be warped in on the low ground until blink is researched.
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I would say this is absolutely difficult to hold on and if i saw this for the first time i would get rofl STOMPED.
But the only thing i can think of besides cannons are to let the first 3 roaches up the ramp and keep using the range 5 and cut either the 1-2 roaches in half with FF and using Zealot and sentry to try to pick off the roaches.
You have to be really scared of the Zerglings if they manage to get past your units and surround you have lost as you know.
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On February 02 2011 13:46 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:44 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to. It's how I stop roach rushes, I have never lost to a roach rush with it. I realize the zerglings are an additional problem, I don't know how to deal with that. But for god's sake just try it, I'm good enough to realize an immortal is good against roaches and that it can pop almost in time, probably in time if optimized, just try it. Or keep complaining that no one can help you at Zerg is imba. I also get 2 warp gates up, with more efficient use of chrono boosting, perhaps you could warp in an additional 2 units in time. It's not just an immortal, it's 2 zealots, a stalker, 2 warp ins, and an immortal
crib you are a fucking bronze retard. immortal rush is NOT the answer to a zerg allin like this. he needs to hold his wall when the attack comes and there is NO way an immortal is gonna be present at that time. even if it was present at that time, an immortal is gonna do exactly SQUAT against 3 roaches and a shit ton of lings. this is not the standard roach rush timing taht you have prolly seen 100x it is an allin designed to hit much earlier.
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Edit: Possible solution included? Worth a try by better players than myself at least to make sure it works, but it appeared to in my impromptu game.
This is actually pretty funny, I saw this thread on teamliquid earlier today and as a diamond z player myself who has problems with ZvP, I immediately watched the replay and put it into my build list. A friend came over and I decided to show him how to korean 4 warpgate all in on Steppes. My 4 gate started seconds before his 3 roaches and 12+ lings hit my base. I laughed since I had JUST read about the build on TL. We base traded and I ended up losing but it did surprise me with one thing, my 4 warpgate all in hit seconds before his units hit my base, even on a very small map (Steppes of War). Had I not warped my units in at the proxy, I would've been able to defend. After watching the zerg build several times it is pretty all in, you cut drones for a significant period of time to get those units out and they show up about 5:30. The korean 4 gate all in I was using had all gates into warpgates and warping in units by 5:10-5:15, enough time to defend the 3 RR + Lings. Yes you have to cut probes to get out the four gates that quick, but at least it's possible to defend the roach + lings rush. The build I was using is the 10 pylon, 10 gate, 13 assim, 15 core, 18 @ 450 build 3 more gates, instant WG research + constant chrono boost on it. You must save all chronoboost after your first 2 chrono'd probes to have enough to constantly chrono the WG research. Gates and chrono'd WG research finish at the same time ~5:00.
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i dont see why so many people suggest an immortal when there are only 3 roaches coming. the roaches are only there so you cant just have 1-2 zealots blocking the gap between the buildings...
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On February 03 2011 05:17 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 05:03 Xanbatou wrote:On February 03 2011 04:46 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 04:42 Dubz wrote: Your units are not on hold position zerglings have no trouble running thru two sentries and a zealot not even on hold position oh i didn't realize they had to be on hold position. i don't understand the basis for that. why are opponents units able to push my units out of the way, that doesn't seem like a good aspect to the game at all -.- Holy crap. With all due respect travis, how did you become so high-ranked if you didn't know that units had to be on hold position to not get pushed by enemy units? If you don't put them on hold position then they can get baited by enemy units too..have you not ever been juked by a zerg before? uh, i always put my units on hold position when i can. but in the game i had to move my units to go meet the lings at the choke and try to get there first, which they did. tbh i probably did put them on hold position at that point but maybe it was just too late. "holy crap". also, why would that even be important information. why would it be important information to know that units have to be on hold position to keep enemy units from running through them. i doubt i have EVER needed to know that up until this game. and also it is just stupid that that's in the game.
wow travis i cannot BELIEVE youve never had a string of lings run right past your blocking zealot into your mineral line. i ALWAYS test the the blocking zealot if i have lings available.
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On February 03 2011 08:08 P00RKID wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 07:31 Kefka.dancingmad wrote: Hey just faced this on the ladder,
[url blocked]
THATS HOW YOU DO ITTTTTTT :D ...when they build their roach warren 25 seconds after the pool pops, yeah, that's how you do it. If he had done roach warren as soon as pool done, his roaches would reach your zealot just as the 2nd and 3rd gateway finish warping in, and you only have 1 zealot, 1 sentry, and 1 stalker, and only enough energy to forcefield once, witch about 10-15 energy left before you could forcefield again, meaning the roaches kill the zealot with spotter overlord, and zerglings run up after forcefield is down, and then its lings vs 3 stalkers. This replay shows how small the timing really is for the rush, you can't delay it at all or its completely worthless.
wouldnt of matterd i rolled it neway
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Masters, i play random. I think the best solutions were already presented (pylon block +stalker), and i'd even put a gateway behind the pylon if they tried to power through it. Zerg is pretty far behind on workers, so as long as you survive you should be ahead.
Also, you didnt scout the roach warren, but if zerg gets gas+ling speed+roaches before expanding and cuts drones, a forge isnt that much of an investment. So, if you saw it coming a forge+cannon would definitely be viable. 3 cannons definitely seems like overkill though, and sentries nullify the threat of a baneling bust, plus if he transitioned to that Zerg would be even farther behind in econ, and P will have warpgate by then.
and theres been a billion posts by now, so have you had any success against this yet?
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3300 protoss and you have to reinforce your wall and and always have a ff on hand should your reinforced wall falls and get your 3 gates up.
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On February 03 2011 10:24 charlie420247 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:46 confusedcrib wrote:On February 02 2011 13:44 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to. It's how I stop roach rushes, I have never lost to a roach rush with it. I realize the zerglings are an additional problem, I don't know how to deal with that. But for god's sake just try it, I'm good enough to realize an immortal is good against roaches and that it can pop almost in time, probably in time if optimized, just try it. Or keep complaining that no one can help you at Zerg is imba. I also get 2 warp gates up, with more efficient use of chrono boosting, perhaps you could warp in an additional 2 units in time. It's not just an immortal, it's 2 zealots, a stalker, 2 warp ins, and an immortal crib you are a fucking bronze retard. immortal rush is NOT the answer to a zerg allin like this. he needs to hold his wall when the attack comes and there is NO way an immortal is gonna be present at that time. even if it was present at that time, an immortal is gonna do exactly SQUAT against 3 roaches and a shit ton of lings. this is not the standard roach rush timing taht you have prolly seen 100x it is an allin designed to hit much earlier.
You should calm down.
Okay, the immortal will not come out unless you're on a lolmap such as Shakuras Plateau. When you're in any type of close-positions, that immortal simply won't come in time. You need sentries in close-positions, and you just need a lot of them to repel the zerglings. By producing sentries, you will probably not have an immortal.
Also, he can also snipe the zealots with the roaches and just attack because you have way too few units. You need at least 2 zealots as an insurance by the time he comes. I actually don't know how to stop this build because I never faced it, so I'm just trying to give a little tips. Please don't flame.
On February 03 2011 09:55 cekkmt wrote: im a noob so take this as a grain of salt. Since stalkers don't work well against speedlings, you could alter your wall, if you know it is coming and go gateway-forge-pylon, so that stalkers can't get out and zealots can, with the pylon covering the small hole between the gateway and the forge,which would be on both sides of the ramp, and make cannons behind that wall. you would have to destroy the pylon later, and stalkers could be warped in on the low ground until blink is researched.
You can't blindly go this. You won't be able to scout him quickly enough with a 9 pylon scout unless he's in close-positions, and using the pylon as a wall is never a good idea (referring back to doing it blindly).
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I'm going to farm some wins with this tonight. I apologize in advance. I realize it's all-in, but goddamn it will feel good to be aggressive for once.
Cheers.
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On February 03 2011 09:16 roymarthyup wrote: in the replay the zerg has 3 roaches and 24 speedlings at the enemy protoss base at 5:30
i have come to the conclusion that this build is COMPLETELY UNBEATABLE by protoss unless he does 1 of 2 things right when he scouts the roach warren
1) make cannons in time. most toss wont do this, and there are options for the zerg to baneling bust this properly
2) completely wall with 4gates quickly upon scouting this build which stops the lings from coming in because they have to destroy a gateway first while the stalkers shoot at them
most protoss will not do any of those 2 things, meaning for all the zergs out there if you copy the build in the replay it will give you FREE WINS against EVERY PROTOSS PLAYER (even master protoss players) until it catches on that the above are the 2 counters
and i dont even think cannons properly counter this. when a zerg scouts forge+cannon he can use the next inject on 4 drones and get 2gas baneling bust which probably will beat the cannons
If you go with the cannon counter, couldn't you warp Stalkers in front of the Cannons to counter the looming Baneling Bust?
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On February 03 2011 10:50 Conrose wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 09:16 roymarthyup wrote: in the replay the zerg has 3 roaches and 24 speedlings at the enemy protoss base at 5:30
i have come to the conclusion that this build is COMPLETELY UNBEATABLE by protoss unless he does 1 of 2 things right when he scouts the roach warren
1) make cannons in time. most toss wont do this, and there are options for the zerg to baneling bust this properly
2) completely wall with 4gates quickly upon scouting this build which stops the lings from coming in because they have to destroy a gateway first while the stalkers shoot at them
most protoss will not do any of those 2 things, meaning for all the zergs out there if you copy the build in the replay it will give you FREE WINS against EVERY PROTOSS PLAYER (even master protoss players) until it catches on that the above are the 2 counters
and i dont even think cannons properly counter this. when a zerg scouts forge+cannon he can use the next inject on 4 drones and get 2gas baneling bust which probably will beat the cannons If you go with the cannon counter, couldn't you warp Stalkers in front of the Cannons to counter the looming Baneling Bust?
Well, actually it's hard to baneling bust a proper sim wall. However, the massive amount of units will eventually run it over and there is almost always a weak spot in the wall, whether it's the zealot or a pylon. Roaches could always attack from below while the speedlings/banelings just rampage the wall.
Once that wall goes down it's basically game-over. The next reinforcements will seal the deal even if you somehow defend the 1st attack by sacrificing probes.
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Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines.
Anyway, this strategy is not unstoppable. If it's so good then people would've been successful with it in major tournaments.
It's an all-in because he's still a one-base Zerg with a weak economy against a Protoss with an average economy.
On February 03 2011 04:46 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 04:42 Dubz wrote: Your units are not on hold position zerglings have no trouble running thru two sentries and a zealot not even on hold position oh i didn't realize they had to be on hold position. i don't understand the basis for that. why are opponents units able to push my units out of the way, that doesn't seem like a good aspect to the game at all -.-
This is his attitude through out the entire thread. If he doesn't like it then he either won't play it or just blames the game.
On February 02 2011 17:00 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:58 AKA. wrote: Why is it unreasonable to sac a probe to scout? zerg is expected to regularly sac OL's worth twice as much, terran at least pays a price for a scan, and you are not willing to sac one probe to avert disaster?! my main problem with doing that is that the probe can be super useful later on, and if he gets lings outside ur ramp quick enough ur never gonna be able to get another probe out. but i suppose u could just send a 2nd probe out before lings get there. also as i said before i kinda backtracked, i suppose it's not that unreasonable
It's just 50 fucking minerals. You sound like a retarded baby.
I'll probably get warned or even banned by moderators but Travis just pissed me off with his stupid posts.
User was temp banned for this post.
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excuse me dingoman, what's your problem? I am not an idiot and I can type just fine.
and clearly the strategy isn't unstoppable, I never said it was unstoppable, the entire point of the thread was to discuss how to stop it. I may be a whiner sometimes but I am actually a really nice guy and I try hard to never make things personal and to treat any specific person I am talking to with respect, unlike some people.
then u quote a completely normal reply to something and say it's "my attitude throughout the entire thread." what is my attitude, what the hell are you even talking about. it's wrong for me to think it's weird that my opponents units can literally run right through my units, like right through them? I can't possibly be the only person who thinks that's really silly.
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On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one.
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On February 03 2011 11:35 Nemara wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one.
if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that
I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond.
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On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:35 Nemara wrote:On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one. if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond.
To be quite frank your posting attitude in this thread has been somewhat along the lines of giving the impression "this is so retardedly strong, game is broken, don't see how it can be stopped when I know it's coming," when your OP in and of itself was absolutely awful (go reread it, you don't even describe how it's even done, the build order, how you responded, ANYTHING) and all the advice is responded to overly negatively, even though I admit a ton of it was pretty bad.
It's really hard to differentiate the thread you made from someone who just came from BNET and started a nondescriptive thread, in my opinion. The only difference is you're actually at masters level as opposed to Plat or something.
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On February 03 2011 11:33 travis wrote: excuse me dingoman, what's your problem? I am not an idiot and I can type just fine.
and clearly the strategy isn't unstoppable, I never said it was unstoppable, the entire point of the thread was to discuss how to stop it. I may be a whiner sometimes but I am actually a really nice guy and I try hard to never make things personal and to treat any specific person I am talking to with respect, unlike some people.
then u quote a completely normal reply to something and say it's "my attitude throughout the entire thread." what is my attitude, what the hell are you even talking about. it's wrong for me to think it's weird that my opponents units can literally run right through my units, like right through them? I can't possibly be the only person who thinks that's really silly.
On February 03 2011 03:38 travis wrote: I gotta say I find it funny that people keep telling me I played badly vs it or that it is easy to stop (which obviously I could play better after discussing some theory, and you're right I didn't want to alter my build drastically if I could help it). And yet zerg after zerg comes in saying that they try it and they win over and over with it.
It's pretty easy to criticize other people huh. I guess tt1 and cruncher suck too. It's like the sensationalist title (which was the point) is a calling for assholes to come in and criticize a player who's better than them anyways. I know I suck but jesus 98% of you suck worse.
It's just a build that requires drastic action as far as modifying your build, and I didn't take drastic enough action, and now I know better.
On February 02 2011 13:23 travis wrote:ur not very high rated are u? t.tit's about the timing. notice i make 2 sentries asap, i've used my gateway constantly, and i still can't hold it. let's be honest, had i chronoboosted units out of the gateway i still wouldn't be able to stop it. that should be clear from the replay
On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol
did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those
You are very bad at asking for advice my friend. Don't act like you treat people with respect.
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On February 03 2011 11:45 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 11:35 Nemara wrote:On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one. if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. To be quite frank your posting attitude in this thread has been somewhat along the lines of giving the impression "this is so retardedly strong, game is broken, don't see how it can be stopped when I know it's coming," when your OP in and of itself was absolutely awful (go reread it, you don't even describe how it's even done, the build order, how you responded, ANYTHING) and all the advice is responded to overly negatively, even though I admit a ton of it was pretty bad. It's really hard to differentiate the thread you made from someone who just came from BNET and started a nondescriptive thread, in my opinion. The only difference is you're actually at masters level as opposed to Plat or something.
well im sorry, clearly I was kind of tilted. jesus christ though it's not that big of a deal, have u actually read my posts in this thread? I didn't respond to all the advice overly negatively, i was negative towards the REALLY bad REALLY clueless advice and I wasn't even negative towards all of that. should we actually go through and quote my replies so we can discuss them? since this issue apparently needs to be a focus of this thread?
as soon as someone actually got to the root of the issue (scouting the timing and responding accordingly at that moment), I admitted it was good advice and that it should work. I am so sorry I wasn't more pleasant to the dozens of people who had no clue what they were talking about whatsoever.
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On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:35 Nemara wrote:On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one. if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond.
I made post way back, but this is how I started walling off to allow for stopping 1 base all in's if I scout them, and how to turn it into a normal wall after.
http://img64.imageshack.us/i/tosswallin.png/
Basically, build your core vertical with your first gateway, and then build a pylon right before zealot pops out of the gateway (you can afford it at like 70% completion) for a normal wall-in. Or, just use another gateway in the 3x3 spot to block cheeze. Safest wall I have come up with period for the top of a ramp. Something small, but it helps
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crib, everything i said there was EXACTLY RIGHT.
lets look through the bolded words
"I know I suck but jesus 98% of you suck worse."
are you arguing that that ISNT the case? I am SURE it's the case, it's simple statistics. How is that disrespectful at all???? Please explain
"ur not very high rated are u? t.t"
again, how is this disrespectful? if someone says
"LOL is this a joke u have no clue what you are talking about" when in fact THEY have no clue what they are talking about, how is it disrespectful to call them out on it?
"im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol"
again, explain how this statement of the truth that doesn't even target any specific person is disrespectful?
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On February 03 2011 11:51 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:45 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 11:35 Nemara wrote:On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one. if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. To be quite frank your posting attitude in this thread has been somewhat along the lines of giving the impression "this is so retardedly strong, game is broken, don't see how it can be stopped when I know it's coming," when your OP in and of itself was absolutely awful (go reread it, you don't even describe how it's even done, the build order, how you responded, ANYTHING) and all the advice is responded to overly negatively, even though I admit a ton of it was pretty bad. It's really hard to differentiate the thread you made from someone who just came from BNET and started a nondescriptive thread, in my opinion. The only difference is you're actually at masters level as opposed to Plat or something. well im sorry, clearly I was kind of tilted. jesus christ though it's not that big of a deal, have u actually read my posts in this thread? I didn't respond to all the advice overly negatively, i was negative towards the REALLY bad REALLY clueless advice and I wasn't even negative towards all of that. should we actually go through and quote my replies so we can discuss them? since this issue apparently needs to be a focus of this thread? as soon as someone actually got to the root of the issue (scouting the timing and responding accordingly at that moment), I admitted it was good advice and that it should work. I am so sorry I wasn't more pleasant to the dozens of people who had no clue what they were talking about whatsoever.
I didn't say it was a massive deal, I just said it was the impression you kind of gave off. I've had my own share of being rude on this forum anyways, so I'm not exactly chastising you or anything.
Nonetheless, I'm sort of surprised you can't see how the above posts, regardless of the truth to them, are disrespectful. If I said you were ugly, even if it happened to be true, wouldn't mean it isn't disrespectful.
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On February 03 2011 11:59 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:51 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 11:45 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 11:35 Nemara wrote:On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one. if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. To be quite frank your posting attitude in this thread has been somewhat along the lines of giving the impression "this is so retardedly strong, game is broken, don't see how it can be stopped when I know it's coming," when your OP in and of itself was absolutely awful (go reread it, you don't even describe how it's even done, the build order, how you responded, ANYTHING) and all the advice is responded to overly negatively, even though I admit a ton of it was pretty bad. It's really hard to differentiate the thread you made from someone who just came from BNET and started a nondescriptive thread, in my opinion. The only difference is you're actually at masters level as opposed to Plat or something. well im sorry, clearly I was kind of tilted. jesus christ though it's not that big of a deal, have u actually read my posts in this thread? I didn't respond to all the advice overly negatively, i was negative towards the REALLY bad REALLY clueless advice and I wasn't even negative towards all of that. should we actually go through and quote my replies so we can discuss them? since this issue apparently needs to be a focus of this thread? as soon as someone actually got to the root of the issue (scouting the timing and responding accordingly at that moment), I admitted it was good advice and that it should work. I am so sorry I wasn't more pleasant to the dozens of people who had no clue what they were talking about whatsoever. I didn't say it was a massive deal, I just said it was the impression you kind of gave off. I've had my own share of being rude on this forum anyways, so I'm not exactly chastising you or anything. Nonetheless, I'm sort of surprised you can't see how the above posts, regardless of the truth to them, are disrespectful. If I said you were ugly, even if it happened to be true, wouldn't mean it isn't disrespectful.
It wouldn't be disrespectful if it was in response to me giving you beauty advice. I don't go around telling people how bad they are at things I have no clue about. If I did I would absolutely deserve to be told "wtf man u have no clue what you're talking about".
And besides, calling someone ugly isn't at all comparable to saying "they aren't high rated". If one thinks it's comparable to call someone ugly vs call someone "low rated", they have some issues.
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i think that a CLOSE THREAD its the best choice for you and mods.
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I'd be totally fine with that though at the same time the thread could still be useful for a lot of people.
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If you found a solution, can you put it in the first post?
I was thinking of doing this build and keep getting gas to get banelings.
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On February 03 2011 10:56 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 10:50 Conrose wrote:On February 03 2011 09:16 roymarthyup wrote: in the replay the zerg has 3 roaches and 24 speedlings at the enemy protoss base at 5:30
i have come to the conclusion that this build is COMPLETELY UNBEATABLE by protoss unless he does 1 of 2 things right when he scouts the roach warren
1) make cannons in time. most toss wont do this, and there are options for the zerg to baneling bust this properly
2) completely wall with 4gates quickly upon scouting this build which stops the lings from coming in because they have to destroy a gateway first while the stalkers shoot at them
most protoss will not do any of those 2 things, meaning for all the zergs out there if you copy the build in the replay it will give you FREE WINS against EVERY PROTOSS PLAYER (even master protoss players) until it catches on that the above are the 2 counters
and i dont even think cannons properly counter this. when a zerg scouts forge+cannon he can use the next inject on 4 drones and get 2gas baneling bust which probably will beat the cannons If you go with the cannon counter, couldn't you warp Stalkers in front of the Cannons to counter the looming Baneling Bust? Well, actually it's hard to baneling bust a proper sim wall. However, the massive amount of units will eventually run it over and there is almost always a weak spot in the wall, whether it's the zealot or a pylon. Roaches could always attack from below while the speedlings/banelings just rampage the wall. Once that wall goes down it's basically game-over. The next reinforcements will seal the deal even if you somehow defend the 1st attack by sacrificing probes.
I'm talking about using Stalkers to soak Baneling Hits and essentially serve as a wall for the wall. Sort of like placing Marauders or later a Thor in front of the Supply Depot of a wall when you scout a baneling's nest.
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god, i hate you guys... why do you post this cheesy strategy on TL! every fuking zerg in ladder are doing it now lol
ç_ç
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On February 03 2011 11:51 Gooey wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 11:35 Nemara wrote:On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one. if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. I made post way back, but this is how I started walling off to allow for stopping 1 base all in's if I scout them, and how to turn it into a normal wall after. http://img64.imageshack.us/i/tosswallin.png/Basically, build your core vertical with your first gateway, and then build a pylon right before zealot pops out of the gateway (you can afford it at like 70% completion) for a normal wall-in. Or, just use another gateway in the 3x3 spot to block cheeze. Safest wall I have come up with period for the top of a ramp. Something small, but it helps
I was thinking of this wall off technique that you have a picture of, and was wondering if somebody else might talk about it. This is a good post because this wall off (if you make it gate-core-gate after scouted cheese) you can wall in and get stalkers before lings and the 3 roaches can take down a gateway. And, by the time (if) they kill a gateway, you can forcefield, or have used forcefield to delay it dieing, either way you have to slow it down a little, so you can have about 4-5 stalkers + probes fighting to help stabilize.
The reason the 3rr is so powerful is because they bust down your wall (the zealot). The answer, is a better wall.
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Tried it on ladder, if you go for 1 gate - robo into 3 gate robo and chrono your buildings you can have enough zealots and immortals to hold it off. You really only need 1 immo and 5-6 lots, less if you fight at a choke.
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You did a 13 gate. If you 10 gate your warpgates are up earlier and you will have 1 zealot + 5 stalkers to hold it off. He is pretty much all in. With some micro and good unit composition + a little probe help if necessary you can fairly easily stop it and have an advantage. As far as I can tell this is a typical 1 base zerg push.
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This is easily stopped by making a second gateway sooner (not making 2nd and 3rd gateways at once) and chrono boosting units out, not probes and warpgate. Pretty straightforward and similar to how you can stop a regular 5RR.
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Anyone actually using this (Z) or fighting this (P) on ladder? I am not using it atm, and I am curious if P is seeing it...
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I agree with aurum510 and what some of the other people have said. You have to scout the 1 base play and delay the second gas and get a quick second gateway and then chronoboost stalkers and zealots out, and adding structures to the wall if needed. The roach rush has gone away a bit after its popularity post roach buff patch but now you have to think about this again IMO.
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Ive been using this for relatively close posistions ZvP all day and won 6 out of 6 times with it. Really strong build because most people wont fully wall off. It also doesnt seem to matter what unit comp they have. Every different skew of zealots, stalkers, and sentrys falls the same.
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On February 03 2011 12:47 BrenttheGreat wrote: You did a 13 gate. If you 10 gate your warpgates are up earlier and you will have 1 zealot + 5 stalkers to hold it off. He is pretty much all in. With some micro and good unit composition + a little probe help if necessary you can fairly easily stop it and have an advantage. As far as I can tell this is a typical 1 base zerg push.
That is a blind 10 gate, though. He is looking for solutions to stop it with a standard 3 gate zealot/sentry expand build. The thing that makes his persistence good, is that he wants his build to be as safe to everything a zerg can do as possible without deviating from the standard look of his build. It is what makes your build strong, by being able to use it effectively against anything. I think he realizes that it all comes down to scouting and using chrono boost on the right buildings based on what he scouts, and how is sim city is done.
If you wade through some of the muck in the last 30 pages, there are a couple of good constructive posts of people who have gone and tested timings and analyzed when zerg got what in the replay, and how to react properly.
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On February 03 2011 13:20 HardCorey wrote: Ive been using this for relatively close posistions ZvP all day and won 6 out of 6 times with it. Really strong build because most people wont fully wall off. It also doesnt seem to matter what unit comp they have. Every different skew of zealots, stalkers, and sentrys falls the same.
The reason it works is because the Lings counter all the early Toss Units when they get a good surround, zealots are pummeled with Lings are assisted by Roaches. Lings are terribad in a choke, and that's the sole purpose of making the 3 Roaches, to break the wall and allow the Lings to engage in their element.
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I faced it only once on Ladder and was just as helpless. I couldn't believe how many units he had at that time, and with speed. I expected Roaches even with a 1-1-1 gateway army, the sentry didn't have enough energy for 2 FF's, the Stalker is notoriously horrible against even 3 or 4 speedlings, let alone 10... and 3 roaches is just too much, Even a FULL wall in would only allow your one stalker and one sentry to do miserable DPS to the 10 speedlings at your door while roaches break it down. I don't see a way to stop it cold unless you alter the build from the beginning, which as we know is impossible to do with any reasonable amount of success. The only tell tale sign is the drone count, that I can see.
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hey, been using this a bunch on ladder and it's really strong but very all-in ish, you can transition to a macro build but you are severely behind on drones for quite awhile plus expanding rather than making more lings can result in sub par damage to the protoss. If you are going to do this strat, I recommend just going all-in there really is no going back.
So I used this build, I modified it but it's basically what that wzp guy does:
14/18 gas 14/18 pool 16/18 roach warren @100 gas take 1 drone off gas 15/18 queen + ling speed 17/18 overlord 18/18 ling 24/26 3 roaches 24/26 overlord 24+ lings from here on out + overlords
First overlord has to try and spot the high ground to snipe pylon or zealot, then stream lings in while rallying in. The only ones who have stopped this has been 1 guy who got a quick robotics and chronoboosted an immortal asap, I was able to break his front door but using probes and an immortal allowed him to hold my push. The 2nd guy spotted my build and apparently had enough time to get a forge, gateway and cybernetcis with a cannon and a zealot and stalker. I'm still figuring out a transition, but basically if toss can hold on they can win because I've had no success in coming back after trying this and not winning right away.
ALSO! this build works EXCELLENT in ZvZ, works well against 7RR and other Roach openings, as long as you can keep your roaches a live and let the lings tank the damage and surround. It's very important in both matchups, that your roaches stay alive! I got a pretty damn good record tonight using this in ZvZ.
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I actually read through the whole thread.
i think it was 20% advice ( both sound and misguided ) and 60% BS of flaming on Travis, flaming on Protoss in comparison to Zerg and just 20% pure BS in general.
Dear @Travis, I hope you find out a way to deal with this build and really appreciate it for posting the replay here so we can all check it out. I'm interested what you personally have come up with. PM me if you prefer.
I guess you have to be a saint or something to get reasonable & positive feedback from a thread with no whining, no imba crying, no rebuttals to bad comments and suggestions. Or maybe you just have to be thick-skinned and know what to expect when you post a thread.
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First time i saw this it looked rly scary but i think the edit to the OP giving advice on how to stop is useful and should be able to hold it if doing that correctly.
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you can actually drop a hatch out of this as well, especially if you force protoss to do something weird like forge.
i also think you should steal the gas when doing this build, it'll help limit the sentry count.
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HAI PEOPLE HOW YOU DOING !!? FINE COPYING MY STRAT EH ?? ? ? welly welly well.... i got some news from here and there so lets make it a bit more clear, this strat is not-doable , just knowing the build order wont make it happen, there is a secret beneath it that will make it not good for most players, ......but i will surely share it with ppl just contact me in-game and ill show you a trip to make this the way it does, because those guys doing their own "builds" that look like my build, are not gonna make it tru.. anyways
WZP <----------------------
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This replay is all about learning how to play vs a 1 base zerg. There is no reason you are going to need 2 gas vs a 1 base zerg.
Step 1. There is no reason you shouldn't be seeing this roach warren go down, seeing gas after a decently fast pool is already fishy, that cancels out basically any sort of expand, except for maybe a speedling expand. Either way you should be dancing your probe in his base untill the roach warren gets down.
Step 2. Obviously since you KNOW he is doing a funny roach aggression opening you need to actually vary your own build. You don't need 2 gas that early, sentries are great in theory, but you dont have the dps to deal with the lings.
Step 3. Ideally you needed to get your 2/3 gateways much faster and focus on more stalkers and zealots rather than a few ff's. Worst case scenario you have to bring your probes to plug the gap untill your warpgate tech is done, but you had about 10 more workers then he did so sacking a few to gaurenteed a choke point is worth.
Not sure why we need 30 pages of this...
Anyways hope that helps.
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On February 02 2011 14:46 Dromar wrote:
His mention of baneling busting seems a bit wierd. Though he did continue mining gas after the 176 for ling speed + 3 roaches, if he needs to baneling bust a hard wall (gate-core-gate), that requires him to build a baneling nest (which is 50 seconds IIRC) and 13 banelings just to take out your wall. I feel like in that amount of time/wasted resources to take out your wall, you would be in the favorable position.
But again, I've never used this or had it used on me, pure theorycrafting here.
There is a very similar banes + slings bust that can be in your base by 5:00. MxiuMxiu always always always opens with it, regardless of matchup. He's also able to transition out of it and go macro if the bust doesn't work.
I'll post the replay of him executing it against me as P, its and extremely tight build and cuts drones at 13.
I've since switch to Z and am totally aping MxiuMxiu's build. It is exceedingly effective.
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Ok so im in the gold league atm (think ima lil better idk you tell me).
But i just read this post and tryed it just from watched the replay and my roaches got there way faster then his i dont know what i did but i just winged it same spots basically on meta.
heres the replay: http://www.2shared.com/file/3mMx2Cun/ZvP_3_Roach_rush.html
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United States7483 Posts
Tried it on ladder, if you go for 1 gate - robo into 3 gate robo and chrono your buildings you can have enough zealots and immortals to hold it off. You really only need 1 immo and 5-6 lots, less if you fight at a choke.
You didn't fight the build this thread is discussing, it hits well before you could possibly have an immortal out unless you do something weird like 10 gate, immediate cyber core, immediate robo spam chrono immortal, at which point you'd have no other forces. That, and an immortal isn't so great when the rush has only a small amount of roaches and is mostly lings.
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I tried it twice and worked both games. 2,8k diamond
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I just fought a master-leaguer who tried the build against me. He biffed it slightly by making 4 roaches instead of 3 and he made a few lings early to deny my scouting but I still saw the build coming. As soon as I was sure that he was doing this particular rush, I cancelled my 2nd gas and immediately put up 2 gateways, and a 3rd when I had the resources. I cut probes. When his units were coming up to my ramp, I had 1 zelot, 1 stalker, and 1 sentry that had come out of the 1st gate, and 2 stalkers and a zelot that had come out of the rest of them. I put the lots at my choke, put up 1 Forcefield at my ramp, and fought it off. Then warpgate research finished seconds later (because I used chrono on my gateways to get units) and I proceeded to push out with sentrys and zelots off of 4 gates. He was able to produce enough units to stop the attack but I was expanding behind it comfortably and my 2nd attack had +1 dmg so he just couldn't do anything about it. The trick to stopping the build was not taking the 2nd gas, and instead pouring all early resources into stalkers, 2 zelots, and a sentry. If u want I could link the replay but I don't feel like uploading it ^.^
-2500-2600 masters
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I just played a Z who did this, even asked him if he copied the build order Travis mentioned and he admitted to it. I held off the rush easily, granted he was a ~2700 dia and I'm a ~2600 masters, the b.o. was executed relatively well.
How I stopped it:
Standard build up until cyber + 2 gas, when you notice he is throwing down a quick roach warren, you know the larva inject is coming at 5:00 so you have until 5:30-6 min depending on map and positions. After you scout this, throw down a forge, build one cannon at ramp with your zeal and constant chrono out sentries and warpgates. Then throw down 2 more gates when you have resources to.
The attack:
This part is important! You have to have good FF's and hold off the initial push, the real damage will come with the scouting OL who will give sight into your base. You need to have at least 3 sentries at this point (4 FF's assuming your first sentry was on time), when the OL is close to the cliff, use 2 FF's and push the roaches back from the cliff, then focus down the OL. If you can do this, the rest of the rush is easy to hold off with stalkers and sentries warping in.
After this, you're in the clear to expo or robo tech. You'll be up ~10 probes with his expo just being underway.
Hope this helps all the tosses out there.
REPLAY: http://www.2shared.com/file/8Ys_-BE_/Z_allin_counter_5roachpush.html
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jesus christ come up with your own builds people. the game wouldnt be so boring if people actually did variations of openers. that said, whoever made this one deserves a lot of cred.
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On February 03 2011 15:48 scvtear wrote:I just played a Z who did this, even asked him if he copied the build order Travis mentioned and he admitted to it. I held off the rush easily, granted he was a ~2700 dia and I'm a ~2600 masters, the b.o. was executed relatively well. How I stopped it: Standard build up until cyber + 2 gas, when you notice he is throwing down a quick roach warren, you know the larva inject is coming at 5:00 so you have until 5:30-6 min depending on map and positions. After you scout this, throw down a forge, build one cannon at ramp with your zeal and constant chrono out sentries and warpgates. Then throw down 2 more gates when you have resources to. The attack: This part is important! You have to have good FF's and hold off the initial push, the real damage will come with the scouting OL who will give sight into your base. You need to have at least 3 sentries at this point (4 FF's assuming your first sentry was on time), when the OL is close to the cliff, use 2 FF's and push the roaches back from the cliff, then focus down the OL. If you can do this, the rest of the rush is easy to hold off with stalkers and sentries warping in. After this, you're in the clear to expo or robo tech. You'll be up ~10 probes with his expo just being underway. Hope this helps all the tosses out there. REPLAY: http://www.2shared.com/file/8Ys_-BE_/Z_allin_counter_5roachpush.html
ur opponent did the build wrong
the build is supposed to have 3 roaches at your doorstep by 5 minutes, this is before you dropped the cannon and you only had 1 sentry at that point. the roaches if they arrived at 5 minutes would have forced you to waste force fields
also, the build is supposed to have 3 roaches and 24 speedlings at your base by 5:30. your opponent had much less than that. if your opponent did the build correctly you wouldnt have been able to forcefield and those 24 speedlings / 2 roaches would kill your cannon
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On February 03 2011 12:03 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:59 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 03 2011 11:51 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 11:45 FabledIntegral wrote:On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:On February 03 2011 11:35 Nemara wrote:On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one. if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. To be quite frank your posting attitude in this thread has been somewhat along the lines of giving the impression "this is so retardedly strong, game is broken, don't see how it can be stopped when I know it's coming," when your OP in and of itself was absolutely awful (go reread it, you don't even describe how it's even done, the build order, how you responded, ANYTHING) and all the advice is responded to overly negatively, even though I admit a ton of it was pretty bad. It's really hard to differentiate the thread you made from someone who just came from BNET and started a nondescriptive thread, in my opinion. The only difference is you're actually at masters level as opposed to Plat or something. well im sorry, clearly I was kind of tilted. jesus christ though it's not that big of a deal, have u actually read my posts in this thread? I didn't respond to all the advice overly negatively, i was negative towards the REALLY bad REALLY clueless advice and I wasn't even negative towards all of that. should we actually go through and quote my replies so we can discuss them? since this issue apparently needs to be a focus of this thread? as soon as someone actually got to the root of the issue (scouting the timing and responding accordingly at that moment), I admitted it was good advice and that it should work. I am so sorry I wasn't more pleasant to the dozens of people who had no clue what they were talking about whatsoever. I didn't say it was a massive deal, I just said it was the impression you kind of gave off. I've had my own share of being rude on this forum anyways, so I'm not exactly chastising you or anything. Nonetheless, I'm sort of surprised you can't see how the above posts, regardless of the truth to them, are disrespectful. If I said you were ugly, even if it happened to be true, wouldn't mean it isn't disrespectful. It wouldn't be disrespectful if it was in response to me giving you beauty advice. I don't go around telling people how bad they are at things I have no clue about. If I did I would absolutely deserve to be told "wtf man u have no clue what you're talking about". And besides, calling someone ugly isn't at all comparable to saying "they aren't high rated". If one thinks it's comparable to call someone ugly vs call someone "low rated", they have some issues.
Of course it's comparable, because you didn't say "they aren't high rated." You said that they suck really badly. Saying they aren't high rated would have been the truth, in a much classier manner.
Saying "LOL what a joke" isn't exactly respectful either.
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i think adels opening does well against this zerg rush, u push with (2gate) 4 zealots + 2 stalkers while u expo or do a delayed 4gate (obv 4gate if u spot 1 base zerg i guess)
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On February 03 2011 07:59 Jaeger wrote: Just a few notes if you're plan is 3gate sentry expand, Your core is ~5 seconds late. You usually build a 2nd gas before zealot with this build. Your sentry is ~13 seconds late because you don't have enough gas to start it on time.
You have several bumps in probe production because you don't have the money to constantly produce them.
1 second after gateway 3 seconds after gas 3 seconds after second pylon 1 second after core 1 second after second gas 11 seconds after warpgate tech 5 seconds after 2nd/3rd gateway
This might seem super nitpicky but as each chronoboost gives you an extra 10 seconds of production time thats over 2 chronoboosts of wasted production time.
So basically if you: - place your core on time - only chrono boost your nexus once - constantly build probes from your nexus (this part requires pretty good worker micro actually) - build a 2nd gas before zealot - chrono boost out the zealot - chrono boost out the first sentry
You end up with the exact same everything except you have an extra sentry and a second forcefield on your first sentry.
To expand upon this:
http://www.mikemarcin.com/media/starcraft2/jaeger(p)_brain(z)_3roachspeedling.SC2Replay
A practice game played earlier, don't pay attention to the game so much as the timings of certain things. Despite several obvious bumps and horrible worker micro due to me being extremely tired you can see it is easily held using the OP's build with subtle chronoboost tweaks and has probe parity.
I'm not exactly decided on if it's better to spend 3 chronos on warpgate tech and 2 on the gateway or vice versa but I'm leaning towards the former.
Its the timings of the zerg in the op and the protoss in this that matter not the actual details of the game (i.e. obviously easier to hold in cross positions).
At the critical moment where the OP's ramp is broken 5:41 he has had 2 available forcefields 2 sentries a zealot and 24 probes.
At 5:41 in this replay which tries to closely mimic the OP's build you have 3 sentries a zealot with 3 forcefields and a 4th ready in plenty of time with 26 probes.
No need for cannons, fast stalkers, giant deviations, and no need to throw away the 3gate sentry build if for instance your scouting probe gets killed by drones and you don't actually see this coming until there are roaches at your front.
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On February 03 2011 11:54 travis wrote: crib, everything i said there was EXACTLY RIGHT.
lets look through the bolded words
"I know I suck but jesus 98% of you suck worse."
are you arguing that that ISNT the case? I am SURE it's the case, it's simple statistics. How is that disrespectful at all???? Please explain
"ur not very high rated are u? t.t"
again, how is this disrespectful? if someone says
"LOL is this a joke u have no clue what you are talking about" when in fact THEY have no clue what they are talking about, how is it disrespectful to call them out on it?
"im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol"
again, explain how this statement of the truth that doesn't even target any specific person is disrespectful?
You're such a joke. Let's take your quotes one by one.
1. Regardless of whether or not this is statistically accurate (lol ladder ranking, can 4gate to masters), you're still completely arrogant for saying it and not thinking your tone is disrespectful. If a really smart person walks into the room and says "you're all dumber than me", that's still rude despite it being true.
2. Instead of commentating on why you think his advice doesn't make sense, you brush it off as if he was obviously low rated. It's not the comment that's disrespectful, it's the way you went about replying to him.
3. Just because you're not targeting specific people doesn't make you not disrespectful. "Most of you in this thread are retarded" is still a rude thing to say. Again, you're brushing everyone's advice off by saying that they would get "absolutely raped to pieces" despite you coming here for advice.
Man, I wouldn't think someone with over 16 thousand posts in a rather well-mannered community would have to be taught proper etiquette.
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YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:
I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable?
This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20).
The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge.
Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
ALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sands http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolis
I am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness.
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On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisI am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness.
this is actually a very good idea and completely viable. because most of the time this build gets 2 zerglings right around the time the pool finishes, instead you can just get an extra drone early game to pay for the 75 mineral loss (skip those 2 lings) and you essentially make this build unscoutable at the cost of 2 lings
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In response to people saying that proxying the roach warren is a smart way to hide this strategy, note that any player good enough to scout and understand your 1-base drone cutting play will not really be tricked by a missing roach warren when every other sign is there. Unless your opponent just assumes you are awful, it won't change anything.
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On February 03 2011 16:45 oOOoOphidian wrote: In response to people saying that proxying the roach warren is a smart way to hide this strategy, note that any player good enough to scout and understand your 1-base drone cutting play will not really be tricked by a missing roach warren when every other sign is there. Unless your opponent just assumes you are awful, it won't change anything.
That's not true. My standard opening is 15 pool 14 gas into an immediate 4 lings. The econ here is pretty much the same as the roach rush. Are you saying they should just blindly invest in defending something they cant see or find?
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Dudes following:
I have been using this, and a variation of this (like 7 roach push + 4 lings) very successfully. Mainly you also can trick the protoss into you will be expanding. When you delay the roach warren just so your lings are out and kill the probe (or push it away, block your ramp with lings and queen once larvae vomited) you can have roach warren finished when larvae spawn.
The rush distance is crucial imo, since it arrives at Ps base when 3 or 4 Gate just finished. The problem I see is that P is like 10 probes AHEAD when it comes. If P holds, Z is basically gg.
IMO it's pretty similiar to the 4 gate protoss all in. Except they try to expand of course.
This can easily be hold by a) scouting. b) Zealot, Sentry, Stalker + quick 2nd gate.
BTW: What does Z do against 2 gate pressure? Zealots arrive before 6 lings are out (standard build).
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On February 03 2011 07:34 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 07:11 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 03 2011 06:29 Jayrod wrote:On February 03 2011 03:18 DarKFoRcE wrote:On February 03 2011 03:09 kcdc wrote:On February 03 2011 01:56 Skyro wrote:On February 03 2011 01:02 kcdc wrote:On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote: Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. They can deny scouting with 2 zerglings. All you know is that they went roach warren at 14 food. From that point forward, they could do this all-in or they could make 100% drones. If a roach warren at 14 food means you need a forge and 3 cannons, Z auto-wins every game. You can't kill their scout at this time, so if they see you cannoning, they just stop at 2 or 4 zerglings, take an expansion and make 100% drones. Meanwhile, you've spent 600 early minerals on static defense to deal with 2 zerglings, and you're behind in tech and economy with no way to attack or defend your natural. Cannons aren't a good solution because it's not all-in until Z makes a ton of zerglings, and by that point, you can't scout. From the replay he queues up 3 roaches first, then lings after inject. So not only do you scout the early warren you scout the early roaches, and by that point I think you can confirm it is an all-in. If you go the standard gate-core opener and spot the early warrren, you can cancel zealot, cut probes and skip 2nd gas and drop down 2 gates ASAP. Then chrono out 3 stalkers while you park your probe at his base to 100% confirm the all-in. Once you do, make a complete wall-in at your ramp and queue up 3 more stalkers. You will have your 3 stalkers behind a complete wall-in with 3 more stalkers on the way vs 3 roaches and 8 lings. You should know the outcome from here. I do not believe you need cannons. However what is scary is if they do a hatch -> proxy roach warren in some cornor where you don't spot it. That would probably throw a lot of people off. He can make a pair of lings to kill the probe before the roaches pop. It'll screw up the timing if he waits to chase off the probe to start the roach warren, but a pair of lings while the roach warren builds won't screw anything up. All Z needs to let you know is that a roach warren has been started. Hell, he could cancel and go econ even harder. Cannons are not a good solution. edit: ok i noticed my post is a little unorganized. i hope you get the point anyway. I think you underestimate the economic sacrifice. Have you tested going cannons against this specific build? Im pretty sure you didnt. Furthermore, why dont you send a second scouting probe, lure the lings away with the first one and then run in with your second probe and check whether he built 3 roaches or not. Its unbelievable how much uninformed shit is being spilled in this thread. The only reason why people fail with this so hard is because they are not used to dealing with any kind of early aggression from zerg, so they started to slack super hard on their scouting - because it didnt matter anyway. Now you have to scout a little more thoroughly again, wow, big deal. Its also funny how bad people are at observing. At first i didnt want to say this here, because i actually like the fact that i might be able to play this build against some protoss in a tournament who doesnt scout or doesnt look closely (for example, whitera sometimes doenst scout at all). Anyway, when you compare this build to a more normal build, you will notice that at 15 supply, no overlord is being build, but instead, the build goes roach warren, queen, zergling, overlord. this is a huge giveaway. this also means that this build is even farther behind in economy compared to a normal build than people think. which is the reason why i think that even if you do go forge +2 cans and then transition into for example a phoenix opening you wont be worse off compared to a normal game. Furthermore, even IF you are behind if the cancels his roach warren, you have AT LEAST a 50% chance to win against his strategy (of either cancelling or not cancelling). This is assuming that you will win 100% if he does go for the allin and you built cannons. Because if he always cancels, there is no reason to go for a forge, and then you are far ahead. From a game theory perspective, winning with at least 50% chance is a pretty good result. I say "at least" because i think the chance of you winning after going forge + cannons against the cancel seems to be higher than him winning with his allin against cannons. This isnt necessarily directed at darkforce, but i wanted to use your post as a jumping off point While I appreciate and understand your use of the larva use order as a means to justify a setback to the zerg. I think you may be overlooking a less than mathematical aspect of the game from that point forward. Sinking 600 minerals to defend an attack that might not happen delays any possibility of aggression from the protoss for an extremely long time. Since the threat of aggression is so far off suddenly due specifically to your choice to open this way... your decision of whether or not this larva will become a drone or a combat unit becomes substantially easier. More likely than not, it will be a drone knowing you are completely safe. This delay in the ability to move out of your base as the protoss segues into my next point. There are obviously different phases in the game for map control and both players are constantly vying for map control and to regain map control, etc. Zerg get free map control early on with a couple overlords and some really quick and inexpensive combat units. To combat this the protoss will either make a sentry based army to ensure a safe retreat if you run into problems OR phoenix/VR (each operate differently in their role to obtain midgame map control). Now phoenix can give you SOME control and mobility, but basically what a phoenix based map control attempt does for you is show you a bunch of shit all over the map (expansions/creep spread/what have you) that you cant do anything about. Its tantamount to getting your observer into their base to see that a cloaked banshee just arrived at yours... All your doing is getting a glimpse and what is going to kill you sooner or later. 600 minerals in a forge and 3 cannons along with the delay in tech and expansion allows the zerg (or any race really that scouted you have such a defensive posture) to cut into this period of time where protoss can gain map control. Essentially you are skipping the early-midgame phase where protoss has a chance to seize map control back before the possible mutas hit or the creep has spread like crazy. Having said all that, I am happy that this build has surfaced... I've actually seen this style quite a few times but none so precise as the one in this replay. I think we protoss got too used to zergs being predictable.... and they really are. Builds like this help the game more than they hurt the game and make it more dynamic. While I think roaches are a little too efficient for their cost (ive always felt 100/25 would be appropriate for their relative power and high hp) i do think there are some do's and don'ts in dealing with zerg in these first 5 minutes.. 1) Do keep your probe in their base until a queen pops or lings pop. Your probe might live... might die... regardless of either... the information its giving you is worth the 50 minerals and production time, etc. Even if you are just seeing what kills it. I'm surprised you arent doing this anyways... I make sure 100% of the time that I see either lings or a queen before i try to escape because no matter what build hes doing how can you be sure those arent just more drones? The simple fact that he built lings covers some of the cost of losing that scout. If he sees you leave before he makes lings he can just make a drone with that larva instead. You are actually worse off in that situation than if you just let his lings kill you. 2) Do BUILD STALKERS if you see a roach warren. Regardless of whether its 7RR or this roach/ling all in... Protoss got so used to this 3 gate sentry expand. Its a great build... I love it... i used it in 90% of my PvZ games... but just be flexible... if they GAS steal you... another reason to build more stalkers and less sentries. If they gas steal you I would expect roaches to be honest. Start making logical conclusions if you cant see exactly what theyre doing. You might be wrong sometimes and it might put you behind and you might lose due to that... but you aren't learning ANYTHING by not making those theoretical leaps. There is alot of discovery to be done in those theoretical leaps whether you are wrong or not. 3) Don't rely on sentries to defend a 1 base all in from zerg. With OL sight range, sentries plain suck at defending against this type of thing. They can be good, but dont rush to get a ton, they dont make you invincible. 4) Don't be afraid to lose probes for information... To do so is assuming that you and your opponent are so evenly matched that even 1 probe can change the outcome of the game. Sometimes that is the case, but in EVERY game you should always assume you are a stronger player and that you will respond to what you see in a way that makes sense even if it doesnt work out. all in all i think it was unreasonable on your part build a second sentry and that was mainly due to poor scouting. If you knew he would do it a third time... all the less reason to build the second sentry. Having said that, you tried it, it didnt work... and it wont work. Its not the correct response. I agree cannon is not the correct response either. Getting a fast +1 can help mitigate the setback you imposed on yourself... but overall you will be behind the zerg that sees the forge with his OL and decides to just not all-in. Its always better to defend with units when possible because units move (duh). Earlier 2nd gate, more stalkers, delay third gate to ensure constantly produce units and chrono gateways instead of warpgates. Additionally, scout better. If you scout an indicator that hes not expanding quick, (saving larva for instance), get fewer sentries and more stalkers. The stalkers are crucial but its by no means a slam dunk. Basically hes cutting workers at 14, youve spent another 500 minerals on workers that he put towards units. His army should be about 500 minerals stronger than yours as such... why should your army win? scout. extrapolate. learn from the poorer extrapolations you make. improve. If you actually think roaches should be 100/25 you're insane. The roach is only strong in the early game and eary mid game before protoss gets massive ammounts of sentries, or collosus, or void rays. After that roaches just get decimated by proper use of FF and Collosus, and making them more expensive would only exacerbate the problem. And it should also be noted that while roaches can be strong early game, if you get them early game, your economy is completely screwed and you pretty much auto-lose if you don't do serious damage with them, which is why this kind of all-in strategy isn't seen that frequently by zerg players. I'd much rather have the power of the 4 gate over this build. Forcefields dont exclusively own roaches. Forcefields own everything that isnt flying, massive, or have movable burrow. You can go all roaches and overkill on corruptors and just overrun a collossus based army. Some zergs do this, some zergs dont.. .the good zergs do, the mediocre zergs dont. In fact roaches are so incredibly efficient they can actually ignore incoming damage at times and focus fire key targets, burrow and heal...A roach hydra corruptor build actually needs very few hydras to actually work. I cant tell you how many times ive seen both firsthand and watching top players just get overhwelmed because forcefields last 15 seconds and well... roaches have to die. People act like the reason zergs struggle is due to their weaker units... thats not it at all. The struggle specifically deals with how the zerg economy works and zerg struggles when their opponents are able to do actual damage (whether thats due to forcing them to make units or actually killing things). It doesn't have much to do with the units themselves. Maybe its not the cost, maybe they should have 5 or 10 less hp, but its just my personal opinion that they are over the top in terms of efficiency and my personal opinion probably wont affect patching in any way. People cling to this idra mentality that zerg is so weak but they are doing quite well in every league and tournaments when you factor in how many people actually play zerg. GSL qualifiers are just one other example. 13 zerg 13 terran 6 protoss. Zerg armies are very very efficient. Here's my compromise. Roaches either lose 10 hp or cost slightly more minerals and you increase hydra speed off creep a bit. I feel like hydras off creep could be slightly faster and it would promote more diversity as well as attack options for zerg midgame. You are so clueles about zerg. Roach is a damn good unit early game and mid game. But with less range than stalker, same foodcost, less dps overall, it is a unit that is not good in big mass. It's less efficient when you have a tons of roach (not to mention you can't micro them properly when there are too much). See Kiwikaki that goes for 100 stalker with mothership. That's good because stalker is good in mass, with nice range and blink for positionning. Roach cost wise are BETTER than stalker, but not in big army because they suck at positionning (burrow is too slow, cannot compare to blink) and with less range.
I don't even wanna talk about zerg economy, but I think the biggest problem I have with zerg is not maccro, it's more that in many situation (early late game or late midgame), I'm stuck with hydra roach zergling corruptor muta bling when I should already have broodlord or ultra. T3 units are very expensive, very long to build (you just can't go for end tier tech with zerg on 1base, unlike protoss or terran who can tech very fast, you can actually have a Thor BEFORE the zerg get any mutas...). In some way, and I think it's the most for most zergs out there, i feel that I just can't go T3 without having at least 2-3 expand, and at this point the game is (most of the time) already decided.
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Posters who are flaming Travis and saying that he is disrespectful are completely out of line... basically you're a bunch of noobs who cannot understand in the least the question that Travis posed in his original post...
The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting....
I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:
if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that
I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond.
But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time?
+ Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisI am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness.
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On February 03 2011 17:41 oygp wrote:Posters who are flaming Travis and saying that he is disrespectful are completely out of line... basically you're a bunch of noobs who cannot understand in the least the question that Travis posed in his original post... The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting.... I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:
if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that
I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time? + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisI am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness.
I personally am in the camp that believes he is being entirely disrespectful and dismissive, and simply saying "I'm not being disrespectful" does not allay his attitude...
If he were any other user he'd probably be at least temp banned for his demeanor and this thread would have been closed (and should be).
I PM'd him and posted on page 10 a simple solution that hard counters this without any more than a change of one click (use your 3rd chrono on WG instead of Nexus) and he just said "THANKS!" and went right back to complaining in this thread.
edit: this replay posted just before I wrote this exemplifies what I said. The player uses his 3rd chrono on the wg research, and easily holds because his units warp in as this hits:
In his replay, when his FF finally broke he would have had 4 stalkers already warped in at 5:37 to deal with this, and not lost as much as a single probe, and not had to build a forge and 9 cannons.
And I take a bit of offense that some simple math gets brushed off as "bad noob advice." You don't need to be a 3700 Master player to understand mechanics of chrono boosting. And even if you don't, I made a nice thread about the economic value of each of the first several.
This isn't some magical build that requires an insane amount of micro or super scouting information to stop, just don't play so greedily and you'll crush this build. Games aren't won or lost from playing it safe in the first several minutes, but they are definitely lost from being overly greedy.
He lost 3 times in a row, came on posting when he couldn't figure it out (completely fine), and then refused to alter anything about his opener and complain about how overpowered this rush is. And because he's a liquid member with 17000 posts here, this thread ballooned into the 30+ page spectacle it is.
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Thank you very much, I'll check it out when I get home from work!
Also: people how about stop flaming around and pay attention to this guy and appreciate the effort that he only registered to post a game where he BEATS THE EXACT SAME PLAYER DOING THIS in order to help us all!
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I played vs a practice buddy on this build about 6 times on xel caverns ( the only place ive had it used vs me in ladder) and it was easy to hold, gate and core are normal, soon as you scout it you toss down a forge and then one cannon behind the core, or close to the wall, thats just where i keep my core. And then one cannon near the gate way so that he cant snipe from the low ground, and thats it. Seems to always work, we arnt great only 1500 diamond but it was a easy stop.
The scout is easy all you have to do is wait because the warren goes down RIGHT after pool. he does not get lings out to chase probe away so there is nothing to stop you seeing it
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On February 03 2011 18:04 Deathmanbob wrote: I played vs a practice buddy on this build about 6 times on xel caverns ( the only place ive had it used vs me in ladder) and it was easy to hold, gate and core are normal, soon as you scout it you toss down a forge and then one cannon behind the core, or close to the wall, thats just where i keep my core. And then one cannon near the gate way so that he cant snipe from the low ground, and thats it. Seems to always work, we arnt great only 1500 diamond but it was a easy stop.
The scout is easy all you have to do is wait because the warren goes down RIGHT after pool. he does not get lings out to chase probe away so there is nothing to stop you seeing it
Did you even read my above post about proxy hiding the warren? He would never see it and it's the same build.
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On February 03 2011 18:08 Encrypto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 18:04 Deathmanbob wrote: I played vs a practice buddy on this build about 6 times on xel caverns ( the only place ive had it used vs me in ladder) and it was easy to hold, gate and core are normal, soon as you scout it you toss down a forge and then one cannon behind the core, or close to the wall, thats just where i keep my core. And then one cannon near the gate way so that he cant snipe from the low ground, and thats it. Seems to always work, we arnt great only 1500 diamond but it was a easy stop.
The scout is easy all you have to do is wait because the warren goes down RIGHT after pool. he does not get lings out to chase probe away so there is nothing to stop you seeing it Did you even read my above post about proxy hiding the warren? He would never see it and it's the same build.
Maybe he missed it. Like you missed my post about proxy hiding the warren back on page 17
And the one a bit later after I'd gone and tested out the timing difference. It delays you by about 10 seconds, by the way.
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@michaelhasanalias... + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 17:54 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 17:41 oygp wrote:Posters who are flaming Travis and saying that he is disrespectful are completely out of line... basically you're a bunch of noobs who cannot understand in the least the question that Travis posed in his original post... The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting.... I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:
if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that
I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time? + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisI am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. I personally am in the camp that believes he is being entirely disrespectful and dismissive, and simply saying "I'm not being disrespectful" does not allay his attitude... If he were any other user he'd probably be at least temp banned for his demeanor and this thread would have been closed (and should be). I PM'd him and posted on page 10 a simple solution that hard counters this without any more than a change of one click (use your 3rd chrono on WG instead of Nexus) and he just said "THANKS!" and went right back to complaining in this thread.In his replay, when his FF finally broke he would have had 4 stalkers already warped in at 5:37 to deal with this, and not lost as much as a single probe, and not had to build a forge and 9 cannons. And I take a bit of offense that some simple math gets brushed off as "bad noob advice." You don't need to be a 3700 Master player to understand mechanics of chrono boosting. And even if you don't, I made a nice thread about the economic value of each of the first several. This isn't some magical build that requires an insane amount of micro or super scouting information to stop, just don't play so greedily and you'll crush this build. Games aren't won or lost from playing it safe in the first several minutes, but they are definitely lost from being overly greedy. He lost 3 times in a row, came on posting when he couldn't figure it out (completely fine), and then refused to alter anything about his opener and complain about how overpowered this rush is. And because he's a liquid member with 17000 posts here, this thread ballooned into the 30+ page spectacle it is. Well,I'm still going to disagree on the "disrespectful" part... as I've read about 20+ pages of this thread.. and most of the time, Travis is being completely reasonable..
I don't think Travis is refusing to alter his build upon scouting the roach warren, which he now knows to do... But a lot of noob posters (not including you) are saying crazy stupid stuff... where they're suggesting that Protoss blindly change their builds to simply counter this one rush... every. single. game. Seriously, saying something as innocuous as "10 gate builds counter this rush" are really NOT helpful at all, b/c it suggests that protoss should go 10 gate blindly every game against zerg.. or risk dying to this build by chance alone if zerg happens to decide to use it. That's the context in which people have been accusing Travis of "refusing" to change his opening build.
As for your "simple hard-counter," on page 10, that's actually not a viable counter at all... Simply using your 3rd chronoboost on your warpgate tech isn't going to help all that much against this 3 roach+speedling all-in. When 3 roaches come in, snipe ur blocking zealot, and allow 24 speedlings to run into your base, when you have 2 warpgates just finished, you're still gonna die. In fact, in order for warpgate tech to finish researching just as the 3 roaches arrive along with the speedlings right behind, i believe you need to continuously chronoboost the cyber core... (correct me if I'm wrong) not just once with your 3rd chrono... but 3-4 times continuously from that point on.. as if u were doing a fast 4 warpgate rush.
I'm saying this as a Masters protoss player who has personally experienced playing against this build for the first time yesterday... The fact you PM'ed Travis your "solution" and he said "Thanks"... only tells me that Travis was being polite to you. But sadly your solution actually doesn't counter the build. I hope you understand that.
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Ive done this rush as a Z alot before, and it definately isn't unbeatable, and is not at all really OP, It isn't an insta win that is for sure
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On February 03 2011 18:26 oygp wrote:@michaelhasanalias... + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 17:54 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 17:41 oygp wrote:Posters who are flaming Travis and saying that he is disrespectful are completely out of line... basically you're a bunch of noobs who cannot understand in the least the question that Travis posed in his original post... The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting.... I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:
if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that
I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time? + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisI am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. I personally am in the camp that believes he is being entirely disrespectful and dismissive, and simply saying "I'm not being disrespectful" does not allay his attitude... If he were any other user he'd probably be at least temp banned for his demeanor and this thread would have been closed (and should be). I PM'd him and posted on page 10 a simple solution that hard counters this without any more than a change of one click (use your 3rd chrono on WG instead of Nexus) and he just said "THANKS!" and went right back to complaining in this thread.In his replay, when his FF finally broke he would have had 4 stalkers already warped in at 5:37 to deal with this, and not lost as much as a single probe, and not had to build a forge and 9 cannons. And I take a bit of offense that some simple math gets brushed off as "bad noob advice." You don't need to be a 3700 Master player to understand mechanics of chrono boosting. And even if you don't, I made a nice thread about the economic value of each of the first several. This isn't some magical build that requires an insane amount of micro or super scouting information to stop, just don't play so greedily and you'll crush this build. Games aren't won or lost from playing it safe in the first several minutes, but they are definitely lost from being overly greedy. He lost 3 times in a row, came on posting when he couldn't figure it out (completely fine), and then refused to alter anything about his opener and complain about how overpowered this rush is. And because he's a liquid member with 17000 posts here, this thread ballooned into the 30+ page spectacle it is. Well,I'm still going to disagree on the "disrespectful" part... as I've read about 20+ pages of this thread.. and most of the time, Travis is being completely reasonable.. I don't think Travis is refusing to alter his build upon scouting the roach warren, which he now knows to do... But a lot of noob posters (not including you) are saying crazy stupid stuff... where they're suggesting that Protoss blindly change their builds to simply counter this one rush... every. single. game. Seriously, saying something as innocuous as "10 gate builds counter this rush" are really NOT helpful at all, b/c it suggests that protoss should go 10 gate blindly every game against zerg.. or risk dying to this build by chance alone if zerg happens to decide to use it. That's the context in which people have been accusing Travis of "refusing" to change his opening build. As for your "simple hard-counter," on page 10, that's actually not a viable counter at all... Simply using your 3rd chronoboost on your warpgate tech isn't going to help all that much against this 3 roach+speedling all-in. When 3 roaches come in, snipe ur blocking zealot, and allow 24 speedlings to run into your base, when you have 2 warpgates just finished, you're still gonna die. In fact, in order for warpgate tech to finish researching just as the 3 roaches arrive along with the speedlings right behind, i believe you need to continuously chronoboost the cyber core... (correct me if I'm wrong) not just once with your 3rd chrono... but 3-4 times continuously.. as if u were doing a fast 4 warpgate rush. I'm saying this as a Masters protoss player who has personally experienced playing against this build for the first time today... The fact you PM'ed Travis your "solution" and he said "Thanks"... only tells me that Travis was being polite to you. But sadly your solution actually doesn't counter the build. I hope you understand that.
You misunderstood my post. I mean, in addition to the other chronos, use the third on this build.
It's very easy to stop, and in fact someone was kind enough to post a replay of a pvz with timings almost exactly as in Travis's replay. The only difference is he also used his 3rd chrono on wg research instead of probes, and he was able to easily hold.
One chrono makes a huge difference when it's the difference between having 6-7 units and having 2-3. when this attack comes.
Using that 3rd chrono on WG research sacrifices minimal economy and absolutely crushes any 1-base all-in wall-busting shenanigans like this. It isn't gimmicky, and it's surely cheaper than spending 600 minerals on a forge and 3 cannons in the hope that your opponent is actually going to attack you (since he can always cancel the warren).
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If the zerg player doesn't micro poorly, this build is strong. The forge response to a 1-base zerg is a hard counter. Still haven't seen a 3-chrono'd WG beat a properly executed 3 roach rush.
As for "blindly" responding to 1-base play with cannons, note that a zerg player who isn't building drones and has larvae saved up is going to be aggressive or just lose instantly. If you scout this exact scenario but don't see the roach warren, you can assume it's a proxy and maybe send your probe around to verify that there's a warren somewhere. Like I said, proxying it only will really help against opponents who don't know what they're looking for.
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On February 03 2011 18:43 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 18:26 oygp wrote:@michaelhasanalias... + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 17:54 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 17:41 oygp wrote:Posters who are flaming Travis and saying that he is disrespectful are completely out of line... basically you're a bunch of noobs who cannot understand in the least the question that Travis posed in his original post... The whole point of this thread is that we are trying to understand how to counter the 3 roach+speedling all-in in PvZ... and you guys are derailing this meaningful discussion into a flame war on why you think Travis is being disrespectful for asking the TL community for help. It's pathetic and disgusting.... I think the question has been mostly answered.. + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:
if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that
I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. But as Encrypto shows us in this post, it seems zerg can hide the roach tech using a hidden hatchery.. and thus make the build unscoutable. Then my question is, using your initial scouting probe in the zerg's main, what signs would there be that a proxy hatch/roach warren has been laid down somewhere? How would u still know to get that 2nd gate blocking ur ramp in time? + Show Spoiler +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote:YOU MUST READ THIS IF YOU LIKE THIS BUILD:I read through this forum, looking at what people said was the best way to counter this (I play Zerg), and most people said "Once you scout the warren", "the warren is easy to scout", etc. SO I got to thinking, is there any way I could make the Roach Warren unscoutable? This build has a perfect timing in it that allows for this. When your spawning pool finishes, if you did the build correctly, you have EXACTLY 300 minerals for a queen and a roach warren. INSTEAD, send a drone out when your spawning pool is about halfway done, and make a hidden hatchery in the corner of the map (you have exactly 300 minerals), cancel it, and make a roach warren on the small creep that remains! Yes, you lose 75 minerals, but I was messing with it, and you can either cut the 15th drone or the 17 (supply) lings and your roaches still arrive at the enemy base almost the EXACT SAME TIME (around 5:20). The weakest part of the original build was scouting the roach warren. Now your opponent never even knows it's coming! My build is identical (in terms of timings), but your opponent never has the opportunity to throw down a forge. Here is the replay of my build (there are still a couple minor kinks). It is against a "hard" computer, and because of the computer's mineral advantage, I am unable to win. However, note that the atatcka dn build timings are near identical. http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134297-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-cavernsALSO: The reason I am revealing this, not only because I think it is an awesome addition to this already very powerful build, but is also because I played it with a friend of mine, and he utterly destroyed it multiple times with ease (both my version and the original). Here are the replays: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134300-1v1-protoss-zerg-blistering-sandshttp://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/134301-1v1-protoss-zerg-metalopolisI am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. I personally am in the camp that believes he is being entirely disrespectful and dismissive, and simply saying "I'm not being disrespectful" does not allay his attitude... If he were any other user he'd probably be at least temp banned for his demeanor and this thread would have been closed (and should be). I PM'd him and posted on page 10 a simple solution that hard counters this without any more than a change of one click (use your 3rd chrono on WG instead of Nexus) and he just said "THANKS!" and went right back to complaining in this thread.In his replay, when his FF finally broke he would have had 4 stalkers already warped in at 5:37 to deal with this, and not lost as much as a single probe, and not had to build a forge and 9 cannons. And I take a bit of offense that some simple math gets brushed off as "bad noob advice." You don't need to be a 3700 Master player to understand mechanics of chrono boosting. And even if you don't, I made a nice thread about the economic value of each of the first several. This isn't some magical build that requires an insane amount of micro or super scouting information to stop, just don't play so greedily and you'll crush this build. Games aren't won or lost from playing it safe in the first several minutes, but they are definitely lost from being overly greedy. He lost 3 times in a row, came on posting when he couldn't figure it out (completely fine), and then refused to alter anything about his opener and complain about how overpowered this rush is. And because he's a liquid member with 17000 posts here, this thread ballooned into the 30+ page spectacle it is. Well,I'm still going to disagree on the "disrespectful" part... as I've read about 20+ pages of this thread.. and most of the time, Travis is being completely reasonable.. I don't think Travis is refusing to alter his build upon scouting the roach warren, which he now knows to do... But a lot of noob posters (not including you) are saying crazy stupid stuff... where they're suggesting that Protoss blindly change their builds to simply counter this one rush... every. single. game. Seriously, saying something as innocuous as "10 gate builds counter this rush" are really NOT helpful at all, b/c it suggests that protoss should go 10 gate blindly every game against zerg.. or risk dying to this build by chance alone if zerg happens to decide to use it. That's the context in which people have been accusing Travis of "refusing" to change his opening build. As for your "simple hard-counter," on page 10, that's actually not a viable counter at all... Simply using your 3rd chronoboost on your warpgate tech isn't going to help all that much against this 3 roach+speedling all-in. When 3 roaches come in, snipe ur blocking zealot, and allow 24 speedlings to run into your base, when you have 2 warpgates just finished, you're still gonna die. In fact, in order for warpgate tech to finish researching just as the 3 roaches arrive along with the speedlings right behind, i believe you need to continuously chronoboost the cyber core... (correct me if I'm wrong) not just once with your 3rd chrono... but 3-4 times continuously.. as if u were doing a fast 4 warpgate rush. I'm saying this as a Masters protoss player who has personally experienced playing against this build for the first time today... The fact you PM'ed Travis your "solution" and he said "Thanks"... only tells me that Travis was being polite to you. But sadly your solution actually doesn't counter the build. I hope you understand that. You misunderstood my post. I mean, in addition to the other chronos, use the third on this build. It's very easy to stop, and in fact someone was kind enough to post a replay of a pvz with timings almost exactly as in Travis's replay. The only difference is he also used his 3rd chrono on wg research instead of probes, and he was able to easily hold. One chrono makes a huge difference when it's the difference between having 6-7 units and having 2-3. when this attack comes. Using that 3rd chrono on WG research sacrifices minimal economy and absolutely crushes any 1-base all-in wall-busting shenanigans like this. It isn't gimmicky, and it's surely cheaper than spending 600 minerals on a forge and 3 cannons in the hope that your opponent is actually going to attack you (since he can always cancel the warren).
(I'm not sure which replay u are referring to, Encrypto's, right?) but the toss player in that replay also went for a fast 1 gas, 4 warpgate all-in build himself...
In contrast, Travis (in his replay in the OP) had 2 gas, and only 2 gates finished at the time the rush arrived, with a 3rd still in the process of warping in.. so even with the early 3rd chrono on the warpgate tech, he still would have been overrun with less than 4 gates...
In your solution, I think you need to specify building 4 warpgates quickly, and possibly taking workers off of the 2nd gas, upon scouting the fast roach warren. You totally don't mention getting 4 gates at all, which would allow you to have the "6-7 units" needed to hold off the rush...
even then... you still might need to do a complete wall-in of the ramp with a 2nd gateway (gate-core-gateway wall) to hold on until the ~5:40 mark which is the earliest possible moment that your warpgates can be ready. The roaches with lings following behind can arrive as early as 5:10 on maps/positions with short rush distances... so you're still in trouble for about 30 seconds until your warpgates kick in. One sentry with ff will give u 15 seconds, but a 2nd sentry might not be a good idea b/c those ffs will wear out, and then you'll be wishing you warped in an extra zealot or stalker instead.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
if i forged it would have to be ahead of time it'd be a pretty blind forge and that's pretty ridiculous don't u think?
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making.
Now you know what it is like to be a zerg. Get used to it. We have to handle such situations almost every game.
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Isn't the best solution the same thing as every game vs 1 base allin? Wall with cannons and go voidrays or dts?
It's not like they're going to have anything lair tech and multiple queens anytime soon. Hell, at least you can secure an expo with unkillable units.
Now of course, if the issue is scouting, such that you cannot see the roach warren in time and it looks like a speedling expand, then cannons aren't gonna work, but you're gonna have a damn hard time holding anything unscouted.
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This is what I do:
I keep my scouting probe alive untill at least 4 mins. If he takes an really fast roach warren without taking his expo before 4 mins, I expect a roach all-in. If scouting in the main gets denied I keep looking at his natural. At this point I instantly make my forge and keep chronoboosting out sentries. I scout for hidden expo's, since that would suck if he had one. If I see him moving out, I make 2 cannons and survive on my FF and stalkers. If he does not move out, I get my +1 fast and still 3gate expo, while being a bit more agressive.
It's not the magic counter build, but it works on high diamond level. I tried it at mid master level too. It worked but he could get away with an expo. In the end I still won the game with a good protoss deathball ^^
Unfortunatly I am not at home so I cannot upload a replay =(
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as i said before, i think adel's one gas opening actually crushes this allin, someone tried it?
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On February 03 2011 19:49 Humil wrote: This is what I do:
I keep my scouting probe alive untill at least 4 mins. If he takes an really fast roach warren without taking his expo before 4 mins, I expect a roach all-in. If scouting in the main gets denied I keep looking at his natural. At this point I instantly make my forge and keep chronoboosting out sentries. I scout for hidden expo's, since that would suck if he had one. If I see him moving out, I make 2 cannons and survive on my FF and stalkers. If he does not move out, I get my +1 fast and still 3gate expo, while being a bit more agressive.
It's not the magic counter build, but it works on high diamond level. I tried it at mid master level too. It worked but he could get away with an expo. In the end I still won the game with a good protoss deathball ^^
Unfortunatly I am not at home so I cannot upload a replay =(
Yep, I agree with you, I think this is the proper response. I find it frustrating that so many p-players in this thread and the poll will not even concider the possibility of building a saftey-forge. They simply refuse to adapt.
Early roachwarren on 1 base = forge. But dont build canons until you know for certain the roach/ling will come before youve got units enough to handle them. Its a 150 mineral investment that will make you safe from this build; and only when you suspect it is coming. Its not a waste in any sense of the word. 150 mineral investment is not nearly as big a sacrifice as Z cutting drones; so if you end up not needing them you will still be ahead.
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On February 03 2011 19:59 locohero wrote:as i said before, i think adel's one gas opening actually crushes this allin, someone tried it?
adel's one gas opening is a PvP opening that gets 2 gates first, then 1st gas at 20 supply, and then core at 24 supply.
Are you suggesting that protoss blindly go for a 2 gate, late first gas, and super late core opening every time against zerg? Tell me what happens if zerg doesn't do the 3 roach+speedling all-in? How's does adel's build fare then?
Your suggestion is basically the same as every other noob posting here that a quick forge would easily block this rush.. but does that mean toss in PvZ has to get an early forge every. single. game?
So with adel's PvP build, you're saying toss in PvZ should go 13 gate, 14 pylon, then 16 gate against zerg every single game? You'd have to do that blindly every. single. game?
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On February 03 2011 20:17 oygp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 19:59 locohero wrote:as i said before, i think adel's one gas opening actually crushes this allin, someone tried it? adel's one gas opening is a PvP opening that gets 2 gates first, then 1st gas at 20 supply, and then core at 24 supply. Are you suggesting that protoss blindly go for a 2 gate, late first gas, and super late core opening every time against zerg? Tell me what happens if zerg doesn't do the 3 roach+speedling all-in? How's does adel's build fare then? Your suggestion is basically the same as every other noob posting here that a quick forge would easily block this rush.. but does that mean toss in PvZ has to get an early forge every. single. game? So with adel's PvP build, you're saying toss in PvZ should go 13 gate, 14 pylon, then 16 gate against zerg every single game? You'd have to do that blindly every. single. game? Thanks for calling me a noob. Please just read. You might need a forge when you scout this. But, if you don't use a forge against an 1base all-in, then when do you get it? Only for the +1 upgrades?
Please, don't post like this. I'm just posting ideas and examples how I beat this. Don't put them all under 1 category, read it and post to that particular post. At least explain what's wrong about that forge idea.
It's logical that the PvP build does not work, though...
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On February 03 2011 20:17 oygp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 19:59 locohero wrote:as i said before, i think adel's one gas opening actually crushes this allin, someone tried it? adel's one gas opening is a PvP opening that gets 2 gates first, then 1st gas at 20 supply, and then core at 24 supply. Are you suggesting that protoss blindly go for a 2 gate, late first gas, and super late core opening every time against zerg? Tell me what happens if zerg doesn't do the 3 roach+speedling all-in? How's does adel's build fare then? Your suggestion is basically the same as every other noob posting here that a quick forge would easily block this rush.. but does that mean toss in PvZ has to get an early forge every. single. game? So with adel's PvP build, you're saying toss in PvZ should go 13 gate, 14 pylon, then 16 gate against zerg every single game? You'd have to do that blindly every. single. game?
im not sayin im any good (2600 diamond for what its worth) but what i think is that the adel's opening also works vs zerg in alot of situations.
u can call me a noob but maybe u should try it out first, what u do is u rush to 4 zealots and 2 stalkers (btw its 12 gate, 14 pylon, 16 gate, 20 gas, 21 pylon, 24 core) and start harassing the zerg while u expand if possible or either do a delayed 4gate if u see something weird.
I like this opening more then 3gate sentry expand, because of the very early pressure which can do alot of damage.
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this thread should just be closed. The solution is already provided tons of times and is painfully easy.
Just go 3 warpgate but make sure to use a chronoboost on the first sentry after your zealot. Having your first 2 sentries both out 10 secs earlier is very important to be able to ff 2 times, 2 with your first sentry, once with your 2nd. Get a stalker after the first 2 sentries to help poker at the roaches that are poking you.
Now if he does commit you simply wall yourself off (use a cybernetics core as that is the strongest building since it has most hp per buid time). and shoot at him from behind your walls while warpgate finishes. Warp in 1 more sentry and 2 stalkers and you should be fine. Just don't let his lings enter your base....
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On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote: I am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness.
Sorry, but your friend isn't even scouting, which of course give him additional Minerals. A simple 6-Pool or other earlier timed aggresion would break this.
Especially both replays play on maps with long rush distances, where your RR hits later so he manages to get his 4 Gate ready.
Now Protoss has to go 4 Gate blind against zerg or what...?
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On February 03 2011 21:18 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 16:29 Encrypto wrote: I am no longer positive of the viability of this build at higher levels, However, if it is viable, the roach warren-hiding technique will double its effectiveness. Sorry, but your friend isn't even scouting, which of course give him additional Minerals. A simple 6-Pool or other earlier timed aggresion would break this. Especially both replays play on maps with long rush distances, where your RR hits later so he manages to get his 4 Gate ready. Now Protoss has to go 4 Gate blind against zerg or what...?
Now Protoss can't spend all his chrono boost on his nexus and defend any rush in the first 6 minutes with 1 zealot and possibly a sentry.....
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On February 03 2011 23:18 michaelhasanalias wrote:
Now Protoss can't spend all his chrono boost on his nexus and defend any rush in the first 6 minutes with 1 zealot and possibly a sentry.....
Yea, I feel like this is the simple solution. I had this rush done to me, and it definitely caught me off guard. Upon watching the replay I feel like if I had pooled some Chronoboost and scouted the Roach Warren earlier I could have gotten Warp Gates up in time and delayed further with a pylon block.
If not, then in regards to your replay specifcally Travis, I feel like the instant you scout the Roach Warren that early, you can swap out your 3rd Gate for a Forge and get a Cannon in time? Too lazy to look at the timing right now, but I feel like it could work.
I open very similar to what its looks like you were going for (3 Gate Sentry heavy expo), so I'd love to figure out a way to adapt to this allin. It's just a flavor of the month build, and once the timings are figured out it'll go away.
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This thread feels kinda ridiculous. Every time a Protoss does an early all-in and Zerg is 9 drones ahead, its a sure win for Protoss. And now you are calling this build imbalanced, because you need to scout it and leave your standard build route to survive? Chronoboosting Nexus several time is actually very greedy, maybe you need to realize this.
Its like calling a hardcore Zealot rush imbalanced, because Zerg cannot take an expansion without teching to roach or baneling.
Some guy just figured out another all in timing the Protoss players need to know about. Sorry about that.
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Oh you were all gonna 4gate anyway
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2800 diamond here.
(no i didnt read all of the replies)
I watched the replay and i have to agree with most of the things being said, its very early (5min mark), and he hits with quite alot of force. That being said i feel
- You could have scouted better. - Micro on the zealot was a bit off.
But the main problem ofcourse is the very very early attack. I havent stumbled up this kind of build, if anyone want to play around with this build/counter you can add me on bnet - BBC.807 (im protoss - seeking zerglings).
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lol the 1st time he did to me that i stopped him that guy will ALWAYS but ALWAYS cheese he dosent know how to macro or anything like that he plays like that all his games soo i owned him 3-0 on a b05 soo dont loose ur head, a good way tyo counter any cheese is always scouting on right time soo SCOUT SCOUT!!
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I think i found a way to stop this without canons and with an opening that is pretty much standart.
Im a 3100~ protoss player for wathever is worth.
9 Pylon and scout 12 Gateway 15 Gas 16 Pylon 17 Cyber
Then when minerals allow it without cutting much in probes get another gateway and then the other gas, when the core is finished, start producing non stop stalkers with chronobust and add another gateway, and start warpgates but dont use chrono on it. When you first stalker is out, you can try to kill his overlord or/and the first 2 lings that are used to chase your scouting probe. By the time his roaches get to your ramp, you probably have 3 salkers plus 2 more building, its important to block yourself complety, so the lings can't enter. After this, if they cant destroy your wall is GG.
Hope it helps.
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On February 04 2011 01:06 Anwyn wrote: I think i found a way to stop this without canons and with an opening that is pretty much standart.
Im a 3100~ protoss player for wathever is worth.
9 Pylon and scout 12 Gateway 15 Gas 16 Pylon 17 Cyber
Then when minerals allow it get another gateway and then the other gas, when the core is finished, start producing non stop stalkers with chronobust and add another gateway, and start warpgates but dont use chrono on it. When you first stalker is out, you can try to kill his overlord or/and the first 2 lings that are used to chase your scouting probe. By the time his roaches get to your ramp, you probably have 3 salkers plus 2 more building, its important to block yourself complety, so the lings can enter. After this, if they cant destroy your wall is GG.
Hope it helps.
A replay would probably be more worthwhile to post than your rank...
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On February 04 2011 01:07 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 01:06 Anwyn wrote: I think i found a way to stop this without canons and with an opening that is pretty much standart.
Im a 3100~ protoss player for wathever is worth.
9 Pylon and scout 12 Gateway 15 Gas 16 Pylon 17 Cyber
Then when minerals allow it get another gateway and then the other gas, when the core is finished, start producing non stop stalkers with chronobust and add another gateway, and start warpgates but dont use chrono on it. When you first stalker is out, you can try to kill his overlord or/and the first 2 lings that are used to chase your scouting probe. By the time his roaches get to your ramp, you probably have 3 salkers plus 2 more building, its important to block yourself complety, so the lings can enter. After this, if they cant destroy your wall is GG.
Hope it helps.
A replay would probably be more worthwhile to post than your rank...
I will try to post a replay when i get home.
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This build is a bitch on blistering sands. Time to adjust my thumbs.
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This game was facepalm from the beginning. Protoss: "I wonder if you have the balls to rush me again." Zerg: "I wonder if you have the balls to only build one gateway and no cannons."
5.5 Minute Mark: 16 Speedlings, 3 Roaches VS 1 Zealot, 2 Sentries In the future, take a deep breath and watch the replay yourself with an open mind. You could have chrono'd more units, or built a cannon, or built another gateway sooner, or had better scouting, etc, etc.
In other news: Your bad manners and negativity have made this thread long and bitter. You:
"This is impossible to stop." "I have never cried imbalance... but.. what the hell, come on." "if u have to blindly forge and put cannons on top of ur ramp there is something wrong with the matchup." TL-goers:
"This is the last person i expected to see write this sort of thread.." "Wait is this a joke or something? This is a standard 5RR, except he cut some roaches and added more lings..." "He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy. Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made." Your replies:
"ur not very high rated are u? t.t" "some of u must not watch the replays very carefully." "some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. " "im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about." "im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol" "9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded" "did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins?" "Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool." Almost every post you wrote was incredibly negative, derogatory, and sometimes even straight up lies:
I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. And then you have the audacity to try to end the thread with:
anyways it's stoppable yes. but it's ridiculously ridiculously powerful.
This sounds just like the kind of stuff that is on the battlenet forums everyday...
TL-Goer:
Not to offend but I expected better manners from someone with a liquid tag Your reply back:
where did I have bad manners? You again... contradicting yourself some more:
god, why are people so full of shit. how dare i post this and then argue a position. why am i getting so much shit for this from random people who probably are terrible at the game anyways
Hey, TL Mods, I hope you read this and think twice about who has a TL tag, and about who should get a warning/ban/whatever: the inciter of flame, or people caught in fire.
EDIT: P.S. Please lock this thread.
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Here's a quick replay of this opener. I say opener because you can expand and drone up if you do good damage.
I tried to trick the Protoss into thinking I wanted an expansion while I built a roach warren, which was slightly delayed in doing so. I got 4 roaches and pushed out immediately, rallying speedlings until 34 supply before building an expo.
Killing his army and just a few probes gave me the time I needed to drone up past his probe count. Rest of the game was EZ PZ
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On February 03 2011 11:37 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2011 11:35 Nemara wrote:On February 03 2011 11:11 dingoman wrote: Travis is a fucking idiot who can't even type properly. Just build cannons like the people have said. Send a scouting probe. Who cares if it dies? Zerg drones die all the time to Stalkers or Marines. Thing is, had he just chrono boosted out his sentries, he'd been able to chain ff while upgrading warpgate tech and then he could've kept on force fielding. Its very holdable without canons, atleast on maps with small ramps. And btw, if a zerg is 1 base, you should ALWAYS sac a probe to scout him, especially if you know he's capable of doing an all-in like that one. if i chronoboosted sentries before i saw the roaches yeah that'd work, but i have to be chronoboosting them every time instead of warpgate. after playing vs it some more I think it's quite easy to hold if you scout it (which I now know to do), then just get a 2nd gate blocking ur ramp (so gate/core/gate wall), then start chronoboosting stalkers after ur sentry. quite an easy hold if u do that I absolutely do not think forge + cannons are optimal at all, I think its a very poor way to respond. A friend and I worked on this about 10 games last night (hes zerg). I was able to hold it with decent success.. its really all about the stalkers. I think you're right... best success is to fully gateway block, get stalkers, etc. Since you already have a second gas you can transition to 4 gates with blink (that build Nazgul brought back briefly at MLG) or even 3 gate blink pressure with an expansion knowing hydras are delayed and his economy is too behind to produce enough lings AND drone. I think the 4 gate with blink option because I really dont think they could hold that off and why give them a chance to get back in the game? If you protoss' reading this remember, that 4 gate blink build beats like 90% of zerg builds when you're on even footing... it requires a very specific response from the zerg.... a response that just isn't possible with that shitty of an economy.
Blink obviously allows you to save a building when you push out as well. I think if they saw your wall off and went home with a ton of units instead of forcing the issue, maybe 3 gate into expand, but if they proceed with the all-in and you hold it off.. just go 4 gates with blink and secure the win. I suppose a normal 4 gate could work too but i feel like blink adds insurance and a transition into a tech tree that is good in every PvZ if shit gets a little crazy
edit: I should clarify, I pulled probes to defeat the non-wallin attempts. checking the replays it put us on even workers when i did this. just fyi.
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i'll take my "bad attitude" and stop posting on the strategy forums with it, everyone will be better off that way. I didn't want to tiptoe around a bunch of clueless people. and guess what, that's not an insult, it's just the truth. there's a reason very few top players bother posting here and it's because they don't want to argue with a bunch of clueless people, many of whom want to fight about shit that doesn't even have to do with the game.
im serious, too. im not gonna post in the strategy forum anymore. that way I won't be rude to people who 1.) were completely wrong and 2.) were actually rude to me.
goodbye
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I hate to say it but I think that dealing with rushes like this are going to become a way of life for protoss. Our early game units are so terrible that we have to use FF to even have a chance before warpgate research finishes. And as the other races find ways to negate that advantage (such as the clever overlord placement and roaches in this replay) toss will just have to resort to more and more extreme measures. If toss gets to the point where on any map with less than 16 bases it needs to blind forge/cannon/complete wall... it will be a sad day indeed. Although i am confident Blizzard will step in before that.
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On February 04 2011 03:39 travis wrote: i'll take my "bad attitude" and stop posting on the strategy forums with it, everyone will be better off that way. I didn't want to tiptoe around a bunch of clueless people. and guess what, that's not an insult, it's just the truth. there's a reason very few top players bother posting here and it's because they don't want to argue with a bunch of clueless people, many of whom want to fight about shit that doesn't even have to do with the game.
im serious, too. im not gonna post in the strategy forum anymore. that way I won't be rude to people who 1.) were completely wrong and 2.) were actually rude to me.
goodbye
Regardless of the clueless people in here, and I admit there's many, you still did get legitimate solutions to your build, the process of getting there might have been shitty, but don't you think the way the thread was made had something to do with that? I hope you post again, you're a legitimate good Protoss.
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On February 04 2011 03:39 travis wrote: i'll take my "bad attitude" and stop posting on the strategy forums with it, everyone will be better off that way. I didn't want to tiptoe around a bunch of clueless people. and guess what, that's not an insult, it's just the truth. there's a reason very few top players bother posting here and it's because they don't want to argue with a bunch of clueless people, many of whom want to fight about shit that doesn't even have to do with the game.
im serious, too. im not gonna post in the strategy forum anymore. that way I won't be rude to people who 1.) were completely wrong and 2.) were actually rude to me.
goodbye
good decision, i think its better for you and the fellow readers... u need to deep breathe, anb back to this forum in some days or weeks later...
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On February 04 2011 03:39 travis wrote: I didn't want to tiptoe around a bunch of clueless people. and guess what, that's not an insult,
Don't hate bro, it's still an insult.
I'm glad Zerg finally has something close to an early pressure. At least, Protoss cant be greedy as hell anymore. Only 2 units by 5:00 should always die to an allin. It's that simple; the game makes sense now. It brings joyful tears to my Zerg eyes.
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i think the best way to do this strategy is to proxy the roach warren with a proxy hatch which costs 75 minerals
to make up for the 75 mineral loss and still allow you to get those first quick 2 zerglings after the pool to deny scouting, you put 2 drones on gas instead of 3 which pays for the lost 75 minerals. this will give you slightly slower lingspeed but it wont matter thaat much
next, after you start lingspeed you put 3 drones on gas until you have 50gas then you take all drones off gas and put on minerals
instead of getting 3 roaches, you only get 2 roaches. thats all you really need because you combine those 2 roaches with the 2 original lings to attack the blocking zealot
with this strategy you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches+2lings (instead of 3+2lings) at 5 and you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches + 20 speedlings (instead of 3 roaches + 20 speedlings) at 5:30
this rush is pretty much exactly as powerful as the original build, but you proxy the warren making it unscoutable
the real true benefit of the warren in this build is it allows the 2 original larva to be turned into 4food of fighting units instead of 2food, and those fighting units are ranged and kill zealots well
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On February 04 2011 03:55 roymarthyup wrote: i think the best way to do this strategy is to proxy the roach warren with a proxy hatch which costs 75 minerals
to make up for the 75 mineral loss and still allow you to get those first quick 2 zerglings after the pool to deny scouting, you put 2 drones on gas instead of 3 which pays for the lost 75 minerals. this will give you slightly slower lingspeed but it wont matter thaat much
next, after you start lingspeed you put 3 drones on gas until you have 50gas then you take all drones off gas and put on minerals
instead of getting 3 roaches, you only get 2 roaches. thats all you really need because you combine those 2 roaches with the 2 original lings to attack the blocking zealot
with this strategy you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches+2lings (instead of 3+2lings) at 5 and you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches + 20 speedlings (instead of 3 roaches + 20 speedlings) at 5:30
this rush is pretty much exactly as powerful as the original build, but you proxy the warren making it unscoutable
the real true benefit of the warren in this build is it allows the 2 original larva to be turned into 4food of fighting units instead of 2food, and those fighting units are ranged and kill zealots well
Saving up 300 minerals delays the warren pretty significantly... This build is a timing attack before WG finishes.. if you delay any part of it, its no longer a timing attack, its just bad.
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Wow, what started as an interesting thread on an aggressive ZvP all in quickly deteriorated into severe juvenile flaming and one of the worst threads on this site.
Way to go guys.
I think this thread could have ended after Darkforce's excellent advice.
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I tried this three times last night.
The first protoss 2 gated and I absolutely crushed him with roach ling on steppes in under six minutes.
The second guy went for a gateway/forge, and I decided to abandon it before I spent any money on units and ended up winning in the long game with muta ling.
The other time was on metal, and I got my overlord sniped by a chronoed out stalker above his ledge. That put a pretty fast end to this rush, and I think the same opening would have worked for travis because there is no cover for the overlord and no units to kill the stalker with.
I think on steppes I'm going to rotate this into my primary build, and possibly also on delta quadrant. That's because I have a 33% win rate on both maps and this seems to have a much better win rate when there is overlord cover.
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On February 04 2011 03:39 travis wrote: i'll take my "bad attitude" and stop posting on the strategy forums with it, everyone will be better off that way. I didn't want to tiptoe around a bunch of clueless people. and guess what, that's not an insult, it's just the truth. there's a reason very few top players bother posting here and it's because they don't want to argue with a bunch of clueless people, many of whom want to fight about shit that doesn't even have to do with the game.
im serious, too. im not gonna post in the strategy forum anymore. that way I won't be rude to people who 1.) were completely wrong and 2.) were actually rude to me.
goodbye
Then why do you bother posting in the strategy forum knowing that most "top players" don't bother posting ? I don't know if people here are masters or gold level and frankly i don't think it matters. There are good advices and bad advices . You can replay to advices you think are usefull and don't replay to advices that are bad or at least not in a negative way . When you ask for help you don't need to be all superior like and bash on people who are trying to help you regardless of their knowledge of the game ...
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On February 04 2011 02:16 Sajuuk7 wrote:This game was facepalm from the beginning. Protoss: "I wonder if you have the balls to rush me again." Zerg: "I wonder if you have the balls to only build one gateway and no cannons." 5.5 Minute Mark: 16 Speedlings, 3 Roaches VS 1 Zealot, 2 SentriesIn the future, take a deep breath and watch the replay yourself with an open mind. You could have chrono'd more units, or built a cannon, or built another gateway sooner, or had better scouting, etc, etc. In other news: Your bad manners and negativity have made this thread long and bitter.You: Show nested quote +"This is impossible to stop." "I have never cried imbalance... but.. what the hell, come on." "if u have to blindly forge and put cannons on top of ur ramp there is something wrong with the matchup." TL-goers: Show nested quote +"This is the last person i expected to see write this sort of thread.." "Wait is this a joke or something? This is a standard 5RR, except he cut some roaches and added more lings..." "He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy. Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made." Your replies: Show nested quote +"ur not very high rated are u? t.t" "some of u must not watch the replays very carefully." "some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. " "im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about." "im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol" "9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded" "did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins?" "Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool." Almost every post you wrote was incredibly negative, derogatory, and sometimes even straight up lies: Show nested quote +I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. And then you have the audacity to try to end the thread with: This sounds just like the kind of stuff that is on the battlenet forums everyday... TL-Goer: Your reply back: You again... contradicting yourself some more: Show nested quote +god, why are people so full of shit. how dare i post this and then argue a position. why am i getting so much shit for this from random people who probably are terrible at the game anyways Hey, TL Mods, I hope you read this and think twice about who has a TL tag, and about who should get a warning/ban/whatever: the inciter of flame, or people caught in fire. EDIT: P.S. Please lock this thread.
This is the best post of this thread.
I 100% agree, and I highly suggest everyone including Travis read it again.
I haven't been on TL for a very long time, and I don't really know who this Travis person is, or what his his history is in this community; but i think a lot of regular posters would have been warned/banned by now if we said some of the exact same things he has said in this thread.
I actually watched some of the replays posted in response to this, and some of the strategies and builds were actually quite effective at beating that zerg all-in. Anyways, to me it's just another zerg one base all-in that is very powerful against a protoss player who doesn't respond properly. Either way, this thread was ruined by the very ridiculously poor manners and illogical posts by Travis.
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On February 04 2011 03:39 travis wrote: i'll take my "bad attitude" and stop posting on the strategy forums with it, everyone will be better off that way. I didn't want to tiptoe around a bunch of clueless people. and guess what, that's not an insult, it's just the truth. there's a reason very few top players bother posting here and it's because they don't want to argue with a bunch of clueless people, many of whom want to fight about shit that doesn't even have to do with the game.
im serious, too. im not gonna post in the strategy forum anymore. that way I won't be rude to people who 1.) were completely wrong and 2.) were actually rude to me.
goodbye
Still with the arrogance... You asked for help and you got literally 100's of response (some even by pro-gamers!!) and yet you still insist with this negative attitude. Learn to show some humility :S.
Someone needs to call the care-police because our beloved travis is leaving the strategy forum, tears in my eyes, dripping one drop at a time.
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Intresting build tried it as zerg its perrrtty good
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As 3k Diamond I got 100% win ratio so far. About 25 games. Closest so far was one guy who had 1 cannon ready and another one warping in, on Shakuras. He fend it off but lost all but 5 probes. Easy win 10 minutes later.
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On February 04 2011 03:39 travis wrote: i'll take my "bad attitude" and stop posting on the strategy forums with it, everyone will be better off that way. I didn't want to tiptoe around a bunch of clueless people. and guess what, that's not an insult, it's just the truth. there's a reason very few top players bother posting here and it's because they don't want to argue with a bunch of clueless people, many of whom want to fight about shit that doesn't even have to do with the game.
im serious, too. im not gonna post in the strategy forum anymore. that way I won't be rude to people who 1.) were completely wrong and 2.) were actually rude to me.
goodbye
You made a sensational O/P with an over-the-top title (until it was mod edited). Additionally some/most of your replies in the thread were inflammatory. I think alot of the responses you got were reflections of that.
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The problem is people are theorycrafting an explanation. The point is not to have a hypothetical discussion. It's to figure out an answer. It's hard to sift through a bunch of wrong suggestions to find the right solution. There is much to discuss in other threads, but threads like this are mainly to find a real reasonable answer.
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On February 04 2011 04:02 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 03:55 roymarthyup wrote: i think the best way to do this strategy is to proxy the roach warren with a proxy hatch which costs 75 minerals
to make up for the 75 mineral loss and still allow you to get those first quick 2 zerglings after the pool to deny scouting, you put 2 drones on gas instead of 3 which pays for the lost 75 minerals. this will give you slightly slower lingspeed but it wont matter thaat much
next, after you start lingspeed you put 3 drones on gas until you have 50gas then you take all drones off gas and put on minerals
instead of getting 3 roaches, you only get 2 roaches. thats all you really need because you combine those 2 roaches with the 2 original lings to attack the blocking zealot
with this strategy you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches+2lings (instead of 3+2lings) at 5 and you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches + 20 speedlings (instead of 3 roaches + 20 speedlings) at 5:30
this rush is pretty much exactly as powerful as the original build, but you proxy the warren making it unscoutable
the real true benefit of the warren in this build is it allows the 2 original larva to be turned into 4food of fighting units instead of 2food, and those fighting units are ranged and kill zealots well Saving up 300 minerals delays the warren pretty significantly... This build is a timing attack before WG finishes.. if you delay any part of it, its no longer a timing attack, its just bad.
The timing for this works out perfectly. I explained it on page 31. It IS a better build.
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On February 04 2011 05:26 Encrypto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 04:02 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 04 2011 03:55 roymarthyup wrote: i think the best way to do this strategy is to proxy the roach warren with a proxy hatch which costs 75 minerals
to make up for the 75 mineral loss and still allow you to get those first quick 2 zerglings after the pool to deny scouting, you put 2 drones on gas instead of 3 which pays for the lost 75 minerals. this will give you slightly slower lingspeed but it wont matter thaat much
next, after you start lingspeed you put 3 drones on gas until you have 50gas then you take all drones off gas and put on minerals
instead of getting 3 roaches, you only get 2 roaches. thats all you really need because you combine those 2 roaches with the 2 original lings to attack the blocking zealot
with this strategy you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches+2lings (instead of 3+2lings) at 5 and you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches + 20 speedlings (instead of 3 roaches + 20 speedlings) at 5:30
this rush is pretty much exactly as powerful as the original build, but you proxy the warren making it unscoutable
the real true benefit of the warren in this build is it allows the 2 original larva to be turned into 4food of fighting units instead of 2food, and those fighting units are ranged and kill zealots well Saving up 300 minerals delays the warren pretty significantly... This build is a timing attack before WG finishes.. if you delay any part of it, its no longer a timing attack, its just bad. The timing for this works out perfectly. I explained it on page 31. It IS a better build.
A probe should still be scouting around and should notice a drone leaving the base.
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On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote: UPDATE: someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice!
This doesn't seem right, as soon as he scouts your full wall-in with 2gates and a core with his ovie or first lings he should be able to halt the rush expand and drone completely safe from anything you're going to do, you have a brief worker advantage easily made up despite him delaying his 15 overlord and he has full map control behind 2 speedlings. You can't attack or expand until blink/warp prism or you kill one of your gateways.
How is this an adequate response?
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On February 04 2011 05:28 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 05:26 Encrypto wrote:On February 04 2011 04:02 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On February 04 2011 03:55 roymarthyup wrote: i think the best way to do this strategy is to proxy the roach warren with a proxy hatch which costs 75 minerals
to make up for the 75 mineral loss and still allow you to get those first quick 2 zerglings after the pool to deny scouting, you put 2 drones on gas instead of 3 which pays for the lost 75 minerals. this will give you slightly slower lingspeed but it wont matter thaat much
next, after you start lingspeed you put 3 drones on gas until you have 50gas then you take all drones off gas and put on minerals
instead of getting 3 roaches, you only get 2 roaches. thats all you really need because you combine those 2 roaches with the 2 original lings to attack the blocking zealot
with this strategy you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches+2lings (instead of 3+2lings) at 5 and you should be knocking on the protoss door with 2 roaches + 20 speedlings (instead of 3 roaches + 20 speedlings) at 5:30
this rush is pretty much exactly as powerful as the original build, but you proxy the warren making it unscoutable
the real true benefit of the warren in this build is it allows the 2 original larva to be turned into 4food of fighting units instead of 2food, and those fighting units are ranged and kill zealots well Saving up 300 minerals delays the warren pretty significantly... This build is a timing attack before WG finishes.. if you delay any part of it, its no longer a timing attack, its just bad. The timing for this works out perfectly. I explained it on page 31. It IS a better build. A probe should still be scouting around and should notice a drone leaving the base.
This a completely average scout timing. Your opponent will think nothing of it. If you are worried about this, just send an early scouting drone (around 9 ot 10), scout their base, and then leave and use that drone. I guarantee you they will never know about or find the warrren. Nobody can scout the whole map.
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Tried it and it worked brilliantly
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On February 04 2011 05:29 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote: UPDATE: someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice! This doesn't seem right, as soon as he scouts your full wall-in with 2gates and a core with his ovie or first lings he should be able to halt the rush expand and drone completely safe from anything you're going to do, you have a brief worker advantage easily made up despite him delaying his 15 overlord and he has full map control behind 2 speedlings. You can't attack or expand until blink/warp prism or you kill one of your gateways. How is this an adequate response?
You are incredibly ahead in econ, it isn't "brief". 150mins for busting a gateway is nothing to what the Zerg invested in the feint.
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On February 04 2011 05:29 Jaeger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote: UPDATE: someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice! This doesn't seem right, as soon as he scouts your full wall-in with 2gates and a core with his ovie or first lings he should be able to halt the rush expand and drone completely safe from anything you're going to do, you have a brief worker advantage easily made up despite him delaying his 15 overlord and he has full map control behind 2 speedlings. You can't attack or expand until blink/warp prism or you kill one of your gateways. How is this an adequate response?
not like its the end all be all solution but i would keep that probe that build the 2nd gateway out of your base for proxy pylons. a 4gate might be able to even things up if you just warp to the outside of your wall. this thing does make an insane ammount of units tho. but they are sure to be droning only after that. so you might be able to pull it off. i would have to see it in real game tho.
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here is the complete breakdown of the build
without proxy warren it hits with 3roach+2ling at 5 minutes forcing you to use forcefields and it hits your door with 3roach+20 speedling at 5:30
with proxy warren it hits with 2roach+2ling at 5 minutes and 2roach+20speedling at 5:30. with proxy warren the zerg can still get 2 lings right after the pool to deny your scouting
proxy warren costs 75 minerals (when you cancel the hatchery). when the pool finishes the zerg has 300 minerals to proxy a warren and make a queen so its possible to do it. In order to pay for the cost of proxy'ing the warren the zerg gets lingspeed 10 seconds slower (which has no effect on the rush) and 1 less roach (because the zerg has to pay for that 75 somehow)
with or without proxy warren, the zerg has 14 drones right when the warren finishes
a hatchery+queen produces 10 larva every 60 seconds (gameclock)
this means the zerg has 14 drones when when the warren finishes. if the zerg sees that you built a forge+cannons, he could opt to NOT BUILD THE ROACHES and put all his drones on minerals and build 10 drones a minute until he reaches 23 workers (full 1base saturation with 1gas) while expanding
because a hatch/queen produces 10 larva every 60 seconds, the zerg could theoretically get himself to full 1base saturation in less than a minute, and you already invested 450 minerals in full wall + 2 cannons and you have to kill the forge to break your wall
so is that viable? who knows im thinking of the zerg scouts the forge then once his roach warren finishes he should NOT build roaches and instead put all drones on minerals and expand + build 10 drones a minute to drone up hard
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I think that this build is quite strong on the right maps. The best way to counter would just be a full walloff with an extra gate, while chronoboosting warpgate and units. But if they proxy it, then it can be quite hard to scout. If Z sees P with a forge, they can either just swarm and kill it if it's misplaced. Otherwise, they can catch up in workers in 60s, while dropping down their expo and getting a 2nd gas to tech up. The P will most likely have delayed tech from dropping down 3-4 cannons, so the Z has enough time to respond, as well as being able to prevent any expo for a decent amount of time.
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while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp.
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On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote: while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp.
if the protoss uses a forge to counter this he should use the forge to complete his wall with no entrance to his base
you are right. the protoss should keep a probe near the enemy ramp where nonspeed lings cannot kill the probe and if he sees roaches running out THEN he drops the cannons
and the protoss will only need to drop ONE CANNON because he completed his wall with the forge and the zerg wont be able to drop the wall before 1 cannon kills everything
and if no roaches come out the protoss can walk up the zergs ramp and if he sees plenty drones and no roaches, then the protoss kills the forge to open the wall and maybe attacks with 4gate
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I am diamond 2k Z on EU. I did try this and i can crush every single P i found on ladder and all my friends. I think this build is way too strong at least at my level of play (and below) and is very easy to execute.
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On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote: while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp.
What method would you suggest the protoss use to see the roaches pop out of the eggs at this stage of the game? (that is, the stage where the zerg a queen and lings on the field)
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I just played someone who did this on the ladder, and then just opted to drone up when I put cannons. After playing the game, I am further convinced that if you just put cannons, you will be fine, no matter what they do. I wasn't really expecting this, and I was being sloppy with my scouting. Even so however, one tip is to not be too scared to lose a cannon. Put them right at the edge of the ramp. I put mine too far back and the roaches were able to snipe my buildings, making defendig harder than it had to be.
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On February 04 2011 06:50 icezar wrote: I am diamond 2k Z on EU. I did try this and i can crush every single P i found on ladder and all my friends. I think this build is way too strong at least at my level of play (and below) and is very easy to execute.
Are you sure you aren't crushing people because the have never seen it before? It can easily be countered with cannons, and various people have come up with ways to avoid cannons altogether and still stand a fighting chance. This is an all-in after all...
EDIT: This seems like a metagame counter build to the common 4/3gate opener, I don't really think it's overpowered...
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Though travis handle his responses extremely poorly and in a very snobbish and e-thug way, I can understand his frustration. I think limiting the discussion to protoss players may have alleviated that a bit because its really easy for a random guy to say "just add cannons" without understanding the effect or viability. Its like when Idra complains about not being able to open a certain way because of a certain threat and all the protoss on the forums are like "just do this, just do that". At a level when fewer mistakes are made, some of these inefficiencies can seal your fate even if that effect isnt felt for 10 minutes. The OP is frustrated at the oversimplification but IMO thats to be expected in every thread and its perfectly normal for a forum.
I think his biggest mistake was choosing to respond to literally every suggestion rather than sifting through the ones that warranted discussion. He sabotaged his own thread by responding to the "clueless" people and not focusing on the posts that make you think "okay okay now we're getting somewhere"
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On February 04 2011 06:55 bramapanzer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 06:50 icezar wrote: I am diamond 2k Z on EU. I did try this and i can crush every single P i found on ladder and all my friends. I think this build is way too strong at least at my level of play (and below) and is very easy to execute. Are you sure you aren't crushing people because the have never seen it before? It can easily be countered with cannons, and various people have come up with ways to avoid cannons altogether and still stand a fighting chance. This is an all-in after all... EDIT: This seems like a metagame counter build to the common 4/3gate opener, I don't really think it's overpowered... I have to disagree with the metagame conclusion. The deviation to throw down that early roach warren comes at a time before you can ascertain what opener the protoss is going. You can make theoretical leaps, but I think the leaps are too large to really be accurate around the time you choose to do this build. Maybe you can get enough information before you make the extra lings to turn them into drones instead? I'm not sure yet.
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Jayrod, I'm apologize if I sound condescending, but I think you are interpreting the term "metagame" to mean "mid-game"
Meta-game means game within the game. Since almost almost all toss open 3gateExp/4gatePress, this build has been developed to combat that. On it's own, it's not that strong. If you open with this against a ForgeFE you will prob lose or some strange Indywall with cannons you would probably lose. It's meta because it only really hard counters this one MU. Now if this opening starts winning against all MUs >50% we may have a problem and I would start to consider the term "Imbalance"
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On February 04 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote: while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp. What method would you suggest the protoss use to see the roaches pop out of the eggs at this stage of the game? (that is, the stage where the zerg a queen and lings on the field)
the two lings chase the first probe and you run a second probe in at the time the roaches should pop. the queen wont kill the probe fast enough before it sees whether you built drones or roaches.
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On February 04 2011 07:10 bramapanzer wrote: Jayrod, I'm apologize if I sound condescending, but I think you are interpreting the term "metagame" to mean "mid-game"
Meta-game means game within the game. Since almost almost all toss open 3gateExp/4gatePress, this build has been developed to combat that. On it's own, it's not that strong. If you open with this against a ForgeFE you will prob lose or some strange Indywall with cannons you would probably lose. It's meta because it only really hard counters this one MU. Now if this opening starts winning against all MUs >50% we may have a problem and I would start to consider the term "Imbalance" I should have been more clear. What i meant was you conclusion that its a metagame counter. Its not a counter at all in any sense IMO. Its a powerful all-in that may blind counter openers that aren't adaptative. I don't think 4 gating defines the PvZ metagame. Sentry expand is the current flavor, but its adaptative and very basic up to the point where you can just do a different build in response to this rush. Thats why I dont think this is a metagame counter. I dont think any of the games discusssed in this thread even make it to mid-game
@darkforce. Ya, you can get lucky, but keep in mind that probe dies in seconds and if you arent at the exact right moment and their build isnt exactly perfect your probe wont reliably be around when those hatch. Possible? yes. worth a shot? yes. Reliable? no. I think wall off with stalkers is a better solution if you cant get that information but im going to keep testing it out. Ill try to nail the probe timing to see how reliable that method is, but if im zerg im hiding those roaches when i see his probe come towards my base past my OLs
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On February 04 2011 07:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote: while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp. What method would you suggest the protoss use to see the roaches pop out of the eggs at this stage of the game? (that is, the stage where the zerg a queen and lings on the field) the two lings chase the first probe and you run a second probe in at the time the roaches should pop. the queen wont kill the probe fast enough before it sees whether you built drones or roaches.
Seems excessive to send 2 probes just to scout for an uncommon roach all-in. You'd probably lose less econ by placing the 2nd+3rd gates before the 3rd pylon, and even if they bust up the ramp initially, you'll be able to reinforce more quickly and with more units than the zerg.
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On February 04 2011 06:13 Champ24 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 05:29 Jaeger wrote:On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote: UPDATE: someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice! This doesn't seem right, as soon as he scouts your full wall-in with 2gates and a core with his ovie or first lings he should be able to halt the rush expand and drone completely safe from anything you're going to do, you have a brief worker advantage easily made up despite him delaying his 15 overlord and he has full map control behind 2 speedlings. You can't attack or expand until blink/warp prism or you kill one of your gateways. How is this an adequate response? You are incredibly ahead in econ, it isn't "brief". 150mins for busting a gateway is nothing to what the Zerg invested in the feint.
Quantify their investment if they just make 2 zerglings scout your full wall and make drones + expand.
13pool 12gas, a fine aggressive opening, no huge economic hit here just a stylistic opening
Roach warren and queen and pair of lings before overlord, investment for sure but Overlord in position to see the full wall off with 2 gateways, zerglings out to chase away the scout your lings are out well before you hit 3 larva which means you don't have to waste any larva, your roach warren hasn't finished yet so you can cancel it even after your queen pops out.
So the cost over a normal 13pool 12gas speedling opening is is the mining time lost by the drone making the roach warren, the 40ish minerals you lose canceling the roach warren, the mining time lost by not building your drones on time because you delayed your overlord, the mining time lost by the drones mining gas not minerals after you start speed and before you pull them off.
I contend that it is quite brief as after the first inject you'll have made around 6 drones from the hatchery larva and 4 from the queen larva putting you at about 24 drones to 22 probes if you adjust from the replay in the OP and it only gets worse from there when an expansion and another queen come online.
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your replay on the first post is just fail. You posted the false replay
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On February 04 2011 07:00 Jayrod wrote: Maybe you can get enough information before you make the extra lings to turn them into drones instead? I'm not sure yet.
There are a couple of things you could do.
1. If the Protoss player sees your roach warren then just chase of his probe and cancel the warren and start droning up again. Or If he scouts your roach warren don't cancel it but send a lord over to his base (there should be one there already) and see if he responds with a forge. He should but if he doesn't continue to rush. You can then use that overlord to creep block his natural or third in case things somehow go horribly wrong during the rush.
2. Keep the warren continue to rush even if he has a forge going but build 2 drones per inject so that you can expand to your natural. You probably won't win the fight but if you can at least get some lings into his mineral line its going to hurt him obviously and you will already be expanding while he is rebuilding.
Either way you are going to put pressure on early which most people aren't expecting from zerg and you are going to cause the Protoss player to use a lot of resources early defending.
If he walls off completely I would then just probably go straight to mutas and prevent him from expanding with lords dropping creep until I could muta harass.
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So, I finally watched the replay, havent read everything.
I think it's possible to defend this without changing anything in your build.
You should cancel the third sentry to morph in warp gate asap.
If you do this, when your last forcedfield ended, at the 5min41 mark, you would have 500 minerals and 300 gas in the bank.
From my opinion, with so much in the bank, you should not survive an attack without perfect micro.
At this point, you have 500 minerals and 300 gas, 2 warp gate, and a third warp gate morphing. Not enough energy for forcefield.
Warp in a freaking nexus to block the ramp. 3roache & 1 ling will need 15seconde to kill the warping nexus, cancel at the last moment. This gives you more than enough time to warp in 3 sentries and forcefield everything back. At this point you have 5 sentries, 1 zealot, 3 warpgates.
You can save few more seconds by better use of your chronoboost on the warp gates. Your cyber core is chornoboosted 7s after the warp gate is finished.
....
Yes my answer looks silly, and probably is. But it's probably the one that modifies your build the least, so if it can help even a little bit...
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why the mods don't close this thread? the OP said that he left the thread and the strategy forum for a while...
and the whole discussion its about HIS point of view and game experience its just a horrible thread for bump.
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On February 04 2011 08:42 Elean wrote: So, I finally watched the replay, havent read everything.
I think it's possible to defend this without changing anything in your build.
You should cancel the third sentry to morph in warp gate asap.
If you do this, when your last forcedfield ended, at the 5min41 mark, you would have 500 minerals and 300 gas in the bank.
From my opinion, with so much in the bank, you should not survive an attack without perfect micro.
At this point, you have 500 minerals and 300 gas, 2 warp gate, and a third warp gate morphing. Not enough energy for forcefield.
Warp in a freaking nexus to block the ramp. 3roache & 1 ling will need 15seconde to kill the warping nexus, cancel at the last moment. This gives you more than enough time to warp in 3 sentries and forcefield everything back. At this point you have 5 sentries, 1 zealot, 3 warpgates.
You can save few more seconds by better use of your chronoboost on the warp gates. Your cyber core is chornoboosted 7s after the warp gate is finished.
....
Yes my answer looks silly, and probably is. But it's the probably the one that modify your build the least, so if it can help even a little bit...
Warping a nexus is a pretty great idea actually. Buys you invaluable time.
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Warping in a nexus reminds me of the HongUnPrime vs Fruitdealer game with tons of buildings being warped in and canceled XD
But thats a great idea imo. If you held that off and your opponent hasnt started an expansion when the attack commences, then he is royally screwed. But I tried this and I still had enough resources to make a hatch and continue making roach/ling at 5:20 with the same unit count.
But this one other game my opponent scouted and went into cannon expansion mode, and since my version has the roach warren made 1 supply later I was able to cancel the roach warren just in time and immediately threw down a hatch at my natural. This just forces the game to go into a Protoss FE vs Julyzerg opener.
I for one am glad I longer have to deal with 4gates on Blistering sands.
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Here is the thing though, any variant that relies on WG, either 3 WG expand, 4 WG all-in or even 2 gate aggression falls to this hard. It's basically punishment for the time when you have basically 2 units out, either a zealot/sentry or zealot/stalker because the Toss is thinking the zerg is droning/expanding rather than rushing. Even if the Toss sees the roach warren and is familiar with this build, it's possible to chase the scouting probe with the 2 lings, cancel the warren then go for a more economical build.
This rush fits in to any type of build really, because it opens speedling and offers a roach all-in on the side, if you don't like your chances, whether it be long positions or if your opponent is ready for it, you can change into a more economical game. The great thing about only getting 3 roaches, is that you committing to lings and either building an expansion with the 300 minerals you pile up or using it on lings to finish your opponent. I always open speedling in all my matchups lately and this is a great option for ZvP or ZvZ, been having crazy success using it when my opponent just masses roaches or if they open banelings, I just use the 3 roaches as a wall and mass speedlings in my base waiting for the bust to move out.
This build may be abusive, but it's just as fair as any 4WG rush I've been running into since day 1 of this game. If a Toss can hold it off they can win because there is a timing where after the roaches are gone where you can just wall off completely and 4 WG rush them back and win. Against Zerg, I don't know, I'm thinking more and more that this is probably the best 1 base build you can do. I've had opponents hold it off by getting a FE and basically out produce my rush but it was very close and was a micro war. But most of the time I've been beating zergs with this build, because you actually only need 3 roaches to do significant damage, keep them alive and let your lings tank all the damage.
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On February 04 2011 08:46 No_eL wrote: why the mods don't close this thread? the OP said that he left the thread and the strategy forum for a while... If you read the replies, this all-in is now very used in the ladder.
If the thread is closed, someone will make another one on the same topic in no time. Until the best response is known, it's normal to have a thread to discuss the build.
Although, it wouldn't hurt to have a new and clean thread.
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seems walling is the best counter
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I am a zerg player and so far only 1 person has managed to counter this but he had to really micro his units like crazy, and on top of that my 2nd wave came in right after he killed my last unit so i still won after that. Another person managed to stop me a bit while using this which forced him into immortals, so i made mutas after my second wave which ended on a GG again.
All i got to say is that this is the only way a zerg can prevent a colossus/stalker ball that is completly over powered for zerg, even with good micro and macro skills and 200/200 army zerg units get obliderated unless we pump out 5+ ultras which are very expensive.
Its nice to know that zerg gots something vs protoss on early game that finally works, was getting irritating trying to win a game with 3+ bases vs 1 toss base and still lose to that colossus/stalker or colossus/void ray combo.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote: some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
if i forged it would have to be ahead of time it'd be a pretty blind forge and that's pretty ridiculous don't u think?
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making.
this is a bit of a riddiculous statement this is an all in rush.
when protoss 2 gate zealot rushes, or proxy 2 gates, zerg has to get spine crawlers to defend, same if terran is doing a 2 rax rush spines are almost a necessity.
saying "i shouldn't have to" is a bit of a sad mentality to have no offense. zergs have for a long time relied on static defense for a lot of t/p's rushes.
hell even against some zergling speed ins, or baneling attacks from zerg we need multiple spines to defend.
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Done this build about 10 times now on my Zerg account and I´m 9-1. Only time I lost was when he cannonrushed me on delta quadrant and I didn't see him starting to build close to my base. I'm 2150 master zerg with 450 bonuspool if it matters.
One game on shakuras my opponent started cannoning his front on shakuras but I was able to get through his backdoor. He couldnt get the cannons up in time there even though he started right when his rocks got attacked.
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should i open a thread about how to do this build? if u wanna beat a master protoss with this build u dont need way more advice than the opening BO, took me a while to undestand what i was really doing there. it seems easy but keep in mind that if u get to the other player 5 seconds later you are gone, i wouldnt recoment trying this in ladder unless you know the step by step
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On February 04 2011 14:41 wzp wrote: should i open a thread about how to do this build? if u wanna beat a master protoss with this build u dont need way more advice than the opening BO, took me a while to undestand what i was really doing there. it seems easy but keep in mind that if u get to the other player 5 seconds later you are gone, i wouldnt recoment trying this in ladder unless you know the step by step
if it would give extra information not apparent from a viewing of OP's replay, then sureeee
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i was able to hold this build off with 2 sentries quite easily and here is how i did it- not saying its the best or most efficient way- but i had just read the op and started to ladder- the map was xelnaga caverns- 9 pylon sent to scout- 13 gateway- at this time my scout got to his base and saw the spawning pool go down so at 15 i built a second gateway 16 pylon and at 18 built a zealot chrono boosting it out and then my other gateway completed so i began building a second zealot from it and a third zealot from my first gateway and chronoboosted it out as well- when the 3 zealots were done i sent them to attack- during this time i was running my probe around trying to scout as much as i could and never scouted the roach warren but did notice he had no expansion up- so i dropped a forge and cyber core and assimilator (don't remember the timings on that)- but the key thing i think is the 3 zealots take just enough time to kill off with the roaches with proper micro that it allows you to get a sentry out and 2-3 cannons +2-4 gateways depending on how you do it
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If you don't mind can people post replays of them holding it off?
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On February 04 2011 14:41 wzp wrote: should i open a thread about how to do this build? if u wanna beat a master protoss with this build u dont need way more advice than the opening BO, took me a while to undestand what i was really doing there. it seems easy but keep in mind that if u get to the other player 5 seconds later you are gone, i wouldnt recoment trying this in ladder unless you know the step by step
I'm not sure if its that necessary, as I believe this is the easiest rush to pull off I've ever seen... To check travis' claim, I watched the replay once and tested ladder (low masters division). Still 8-0 and no one has held the initial rush, regardless of map (shakuras it gets there at least 5sek later than close pos metalopolis, and yet still as effective.).
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On February 04 2011 07:50 PJA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 07:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:On February 04 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote: while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp. What method would you suggest the protoss use to see the roaches pop out of the eggs at this stage of the game? (that is, the stage where the zerg a queen and lings on the field) the two lings chase the first probe and you run a second probe in at the time the roaches should pop. the queen wont kill the probe fast enough before it sees whether you built drones or roaches. Seems excessive to send 2 probes just to scout for an uncommon roach all-in. You'd probably lose less econ by placing the 2nd+3rd gates before the 3rd pylon, and even if they bust up the ramp initially, you'll be able to reinforce more quickly and with more units than the zerg.
Lol are you fucking kidding me? Have you read my other posts? Of course you only send a second drone if you notice that he delays his third overlord.
Its probably still possible to hold this without cannons, but i was just pointing out that even if IT ISNT its still possible to hold this without blindly investing into 2 cannons or whatever amount you need.
anyway im done with this, this thread really shows how terrible the strategy forum is right now.
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Simple question. The basic(as seen on broodwar) 2 gate build (on the main without proxy), would not break this?
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Still waiting for counters...
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I tried to defend 8 of these rushes on steppes of war and this is what I did. note that I knew it was coming every time but I still didn't addapt before I knew for sure:
when you see the roach warren just throw down a 2nd gate in your opening and leave your zealot outside and you will be fine. chrono boost 1 stalker out and then sentry or even a 2nd stalker. I tried this a few times with success. forge would also work.
(2,7 master league)
edit: I will try to get a replay up soon
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On February 04 2011 22:18 FastApologies wrote:Still waiting for counters... It's been mentioned a few times, I've tried it, and it works: 1) Keep your probe in their base as long as you can, if you see them drop a roach warren, drop your own forge. (If they wait for a ling to chase you out the rush is 24 seconds later and totally worthless) -Also you can see whether or not they're getting ling speed (an important part of the build). 2) Chronoboost your gateway to squeeze everything out (I go zealot, 2 sentries, then stalkers (instead of the 3rd sentry) and try to see zerg moving out, if he does, drop 1 cannon and keep chronoboosting your gateway, you're miles ahead if you survive. 3) If he pulls back research +1 at the forge, and go for a 4-gate +1 timing attack and win the game. - If he attacks into you just make sure gateways 2 and 3 are on the way and delay as much as possible and warp in stalkers and/or zealots and win the game.
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On February 04 2011 18:43 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 07:50 PJA wrote:On February 04 2011 07:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:On February 04 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote: while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp. What method would you suggest the protoss use to see the roaches pop out of the eggs at this stage of the game? (that is, the stage where the zerg a queen and lings on the field) the two lings chase the first probe and you run a second probe in at the time the roaches should pop. the queen wont kill the probe fast enough before it sees whether you built drones or roaches. Seems excessive to send 2 probes just to scout for an uncommon roach all-in. You'd probably lose less econ by placing the 2nd+3rd gates before the 3rd pylon, and even if they bust up the ramp initially, you'll be able to reinforce more quickly and with more units than the zerg. Lol are you fucking kidding me? Have you read my other posts? Of course you only send a second drone if you notice that he delays his third overlord. Its probably still possible to hold this without cannons, but i was just pointing out that even if IT ISNT its still possible to hold this without blindly investing into 2 cannons or whatever amount you need. anyway im done with this, this thread really shows how terrible the strategy forum is right now. Also I think trying this rush while waiting for 2 lings to drop the RW after skipping the OL is not viable, takes 24 seconds for lings to build, that's an eternity to delay any rush build.
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On February 04 2011 22:56 MoreFaSho wrote:It's been mentioned a few times, I've tried it, and it works: 1) Keep your probe in their base as long as you can, if you see them drop a roach warren, drop your own forge. (If they wait for a ling to chase you out the rush is 24 seconds later and totally worthless) -Also you can see whether or not they're getting ling speed (an important part of the build). 2) Chronoboost your gateway to squeeze everything out (I go zealot, 2 sentries, then stalkers (instead of the 3rd sentry) and try to see zerg moving out, if he does, drop 1 cannon and keep chronoboosting your gateway, you're miles ahead if you survive. 3) If he pulls back research +1 at the forge, and go for a 4-gate +1 timing attack and win the game. - If he attacks into you just make sure gateways 2 and 3 are on the way and delay as much as possible and warp in stalkers and/or zealots and win the game.
If I'm zerg I will just chase your probe out of sight then cancel the warren and build as normal.
I think what is great about this rush strat is how easily it can transition to your first natural or any other build you want to do. As zerg I try to force toss to build a certain way and if I can pull off the rush then great but if not then I can still make you think I'm going to rush and force you to contain yourself while i get my first expo. You can try to scout it but I will at the very least have a couple lings at my ramp to prevent that plus a queen in back. I also try to hide my warren as far back as possible.
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If you drop a forge after scouting the warren, build it out of the overlord's sight. At that point you want the z to spend larvae on units, not drones. Chase the ol away, drop two cannons and get ready to counter after you hold it off.
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I'm protoss player, tried this build 5 times, lost all. My two cents: If you made only 1, i said, only 1 mistake you are dead.
my most mistake were: forget to add larvas asap queen is done.
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my most mistake were: forget to add larvas asap queen is done.
Well... if you don't use your Queen properly early game, you are dead no matter what build! Guess your not that experienced with Zerg? No offense ...
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I tried this build multiple times and won with no effort. I guess it's just a simple timing attack (same with 4gate for protoss) but if i played toss i would be so mad against this build
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http://www.2shared.com/uploadComplete.jsp?sId=Q3j8gnfibof5MYUY
thats how I beat it on steppes. I taught my friend (the zerg) how to do it so he may not execute it optimal. should he wait for more lings before engagement? the only thing I do different than others I've seen is the zealot-stalker-stalker and some sim city. I've found that after walling in it's better to max damage output than to opt for force fields.
<edit> I did the one mistake this time to do the 2nd gate before 1st stalker.
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Played against it 3 times and won 2, the one time I lost was because I tried to gas first blink rush and basically had no units and my scout was killed by workers early
Generally just build units off 3 gates, build an extra gateway to make another 1 whole entrance farther back to keep him from sniping with roaches and just harass with stalkers block with zeals. CB mostly on gateways but I'd spend 1 on warp because it makes your production cycles fit warpgate finishing better imo.
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On February 05 2011 01:44 Lobber wrote:Played against it 3 times and won 2, the one time I lost was because I tried to gas first blink rush and basically had no units and my scout was killed by workers early Generally just build units off 3 gates, build an extra gateway to make another 1 whole entrance farther back to keep him from sniping with roaches and just harass with stalkers block with zeals. CB mostly on gateways but I'd spend 1 on warp because it makes your production cycles fit warpgate finishing better imo. The build when executed properly comes about half a minute before a fairly fast warpgate timing. Your warpgates should not be complete if they are doing the proper rush. Im sure this is being done at all levels with varying degrees of execution. Regardless of the level of execution, the OP updated the original post to include the most valuable information from the thread about how to beat the build without a forge.
A forge would make things much easier if you are 100% sure they built units and didnt do a fake out. If you can ascertain they decided to drone instead, you can use that forge for a faster upgrade for a timed attack.
I think where we're at now is, how does the game play out if they just drone up instead of attacking? How far ahead does it put them if at all? I think that will take time to answer, but like I said, he updated the original post with some band-aid solutions.
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On February 04 2011 18:43 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 07:50 PJA wrote:On February 04 2011 07:35 DarKFoRcE wrote:On February 04 2011 06:51 Jayrod wrote:On February 04 2011 06:42 DarKFoRcE wrote: while i agree that going forge cannon might very well be an overreaction, i think you are exaggerating. if the protoss scouts at the right time (if necessary with a second probe) and sees that there are no roaches, but drones popping instead, he can just opt to not build cannons. in this case the zerg invested quite a bit into tricking the protoss into thinking that an allin is coming (when he is actually building drones) that the forge is probably a smaller setback than the disadvantage the zerg has from his inferior BO.
what im trying to say is, why do you always say that protoss has to build forge + 2 cannons immidiately? im pretty sure you have enough time to build the cannons once you see that roaches are popping out of the eggs, especially because you have at least 1 forcefield to delay them at your ramp. What method would you suggest the protoss use to see the roaches pop out of the eggs at this stage of the game? (that is, the stage where the zerg a queen and lings on the field) the two lings chase the first probe and you run a second probe in at the time the roaches should pop. the queen wont kill the probe fast enough before it sees whether you built drones or roaches. Seems excessive to send 2 probes just to scout for an uncommon roach all-in. You'd probably lose less econ by placing the 2nd+3rd gates before the 3rd pylon, and even if they bust up the ramp initially, you'll be able to reinforce more quickly and with more units than the zerg. anyway im done with this, this thread really shows how terrible the strategy forum is right now. Srsly. When a top-notch progamer gives you advice on how to deal with a build on the strat forums, FUCKING LISTEN instead of trying to argue with him.
It's these ignorant theorycrafting arguments in the strat forums that make pros not want to post here and help the rest of us. Why should they if whenever they do post people jump down their throats with purely speculative arguments?
/rant
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Just wait until the zergs get better with this build. It didnt take long for the 4gate to get incorporated perfectly into toss players. Then we'll see, its too early to tell now.
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Practiced this with my master's buddies and the only way they could hold it off was cannons. Although if you scout at the right time as zerg and see the forge you can cancel and expand and the cannons that they throw down put them behind.
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On February 02 2011 14:26 perptuity wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:19 morimacil wrote:Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax? Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win. HHAAH morimacil speaks the truth!!
Lol This is so true look at all the protoss desperately trying to deal with a simple all in, when we zergs deal with these types of allins from T and P 4 out of 5 matches. Try not being so greedy along with scoutting and cutting some probes like everyone else when faced with an allin.
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Theyve just never seen a "WAAWAWAAWAAAT" zerg all-in and the average man we know today is afraid of the unknown.
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Im no great player, but faced this 3 times today now (before reading this thread >_>), last time I knew what to look for and scouted it the second the roach warren was dropped.
It was cross-positions LT - cant think of many longer ground distances too...
Still got completely rimmed when I tried to transition from a 13gate->14gas->15core into flat out defence.
I dropped 2 additional gates after the first zealot, cut all probes, and chrono'd out stalkers and zealots.
It didnt go well. Although the person doing the rush was higher rated than me.
Im not really understanding how I could get more units out in a faster time as a response to this, and so I am thinking the only guarenteed way to hold it is cannons?
Replay: http://htlr.org/chelios-denvy
Second link to same replay: http://www.filefront.com/17894595/RR2.SC2Replay
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Lol This is so true look at all the protoss desperately trying to deal with a simple all in, when we zergs deal with these types of allins from T and P 4 out of 5 matches. Try not being so greedy along with scoutting and cutting some probes like everyone else when faced with an allin.
Uhh what? PvP is basically 4gate every game and all the PvTs I've been playing on ladder has been one base allins from Terran. PvZ is the only matchup where we usually don't see allins.
Toss has to deal with allins too. Please stop being so arrogant.
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Canada13372 Posts
Would someone please post a replay of the credence travis mentions in the updated op? If it has been posted I'm sorry I'm using the tl app on my phone and it's hard to search through a thread for a replay with it. Thanks :D also maybe travis can add a replay to the op if he reads this.
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This has happened a few times on the ladder all of them RAPING me (2600 Masters) I think this thread will make it more popular lol
Thanks for the input, ill be trying some of the suggestions
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SoCal8898 Posts
On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote:this is the 3rd time i've played this guy. i even knew this was coming. yes of course i could get a forge and some cannons but let's be honest, if u have to blindly forge and put cannons on top of ur ramp there is something wrong with the matchup. I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced, but.. what the hell, come on. could a player better than myself (3200 master) please tell me what im supposed to do? hell, could any player please tell me what to do to stop this? http://www.2shared.com/file/FXZMev4q/how_do_i_beat_this_pvz.htmlUPDATE: someone wanted to know how to beat it well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to 1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out 2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber 3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech 4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out thanks for everyone's advice!
i hope this can add to the solution to this build:
for starters, you were working on your economy while he was working on his army - what i mean is, you got a 2nd gas before your 2nd gateway.
if you see a zerg isn't expanding early, there's no reason to get a 2nd gas..to deal with zerglings, a wall of zealots at the top of the ramp work just fine. to make that many zealots, you needed to spend that money (75 for the gas, 150 for the probes = 225 minerals for gas you can't spend) on at least another gateway after your cyber.
in general, it was a pretty early 2nd gas depending on what your plan was, but against a 1-base zerg, teching usually isn't the best choice.
i'd even be willing to say that if you scout the early roach warren, to pull probes from gas once warpgate starts and make zealots + cannons behind your wall in. focus down the roaches with the cannons, use the zealots to slice up the lings. the DPS for stalkers simply isn't worth spending your production time, gas, and minerals to stop a rush like this. cannons on the other hand are slightly more expensive, AND they don't eat up the production time/cooldown of your gateways.
finally, if the zerg was committing to this sort of rush, you can bet there will be plenty more units to follow up the initial push..2 sentries isn't gonna delay it long enough because the zerg will simply overwhelm you just like it did in the replay you linked.
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Show nested quote +Lol This is so true look at all the protoss desperately trying to deal with a simple all in, when we zergs deal with these types of allins from T and P 4 out of 5 matches. Try not being so greedy along with scoutting and cutting some probes like everyone else when faced with an allin.
Uhh what? PvP is basically 4gate every game and all the PvTs I've been playing on ladder has been one base allins from Terran. PvZ is the only matchup where we usually don't see allins. Toss has to deal with allins too. Please stop being so arrogant. not nearly as many as zerg. as protoss you can be pretty confident about the type of cheese if you will see any. if its zerg itll be 6pool or some kind of roach (sometimes with speed lings) all in. if its toss itll probly be 4gate. terran usually bio all in or sometimes a raven/banshee all in. as zerg there are a ridiculous amount of things that you need to be able to recognise and know the counter to.
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Cannon rush or any other proxy stuff would work, because you cannot afford to scout.
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On February 05 2011 08:09 immortlone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote:this is the 3rd time i've played this guy. i even knew this was coming. yes of course i could get a forge and some cannons but let's be honest, if u have to blindly forge and put cannons on top of ur ramp there is something wrong with the matchup. I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced, but.. what the hell, come on. could a player better than myself (3200 master) please tell me what im supposed to do? hell, could any player please tell me what to do to stop this? http://www.2shared.com/file/FXZMev4q/how_do_i_beat_this_pvz.htmlUPDATE: someone wanted to know how to beat it well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to 1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out 2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber 3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech 4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out thanks for everyone's advice! + Show Spoiler +i hope this can add to the solution to this build:
for starters, you were working on your economy while he was working on his army - what i mean is, you got a 2nd gas before your 2nd gateway.
if you see a zerg isn't expanding early, there's no reason to get a 2nd gas..to deal with zerglings, a wall of zealots at the top of the ramp work just fine. to make that many zealots, you needed to spend that money (75 for the gas, 150 for the probes = 225 minerals for gas you can't spend) on at least another gateway after your cyber.
in general, it was a pretty early 2nd gas depending on what your plan was, but against a 1-base zerg, teching usually isn't the best choice.
i'd even be willing to say that if you scout the early roach warren, to pull probes from gas once warpgate starts and make zealots + cannons behind your wall in. focus down the roaches with the cannons, use the zealots to slice up the lings. the DPS for stalkers simply isn't worth spending your production time, gas, and minerals to stop a rush like this. cannons on the other hand are slightly more expensive, AND they don't eat up the production time/cooldown of your gateways.
finally, if the zerg was committing to this sort of rush, you can bet there will be plenty more units to follow up the initial push..2 sentries isn't gonna delay it long enough because the zerg will simply overwhelm you just like it did in the replay you linked. This is terrible advice, making only zealots and cannons behind the wallin? Doing that will cripple your ability to do anything and the zerg can just drone up and expand. You will need the second gas since sentries are obviously the ultimate defensive unit early game. You pretty much suggested the worst possible way to deal with this.
I just played a 2700 Master's zerg doing this build on the ladder and the method that Travis suggested worked just fine. I walled in my ramp completely with my second gateway and chronoed out some stalkers and sentries to hold it off. The zerg then transitioned into a baneling allin which I killed with my sentries. If his first push doesn't work he's pretty much screwed, so just use your initial scouting probe wisely and you'll be superduper fine.
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On February 05 2011 08:20 imbs wrote:Show nested quote +Lol This is so true look at all the protoss desperately trying to deal with a simple all in, when we zergs deal with these types of allins from T and P 4 out of 5 matches. Try not being so greedy along with scoutting and cutting some probes like everyone else when faced with an allin.
Uhh what? PvP is basically 4gate every game and all the PvTs I've been playing on ladder has been one base allins from Terran. PvZ is the only matchup where we usually don't see allins. Toss has to deal with allins too. Please stop being so arrogant. not nearly as many as zerg. as protoss you can be pretty confident about the type of cheese if you will see any. if its zerg itll be 6pool or some kind of roach (sometimes with speed lings) all in. if its toss itll probly be 4gate. terran usually bio all in or sometimes a raven/banshee all in. as zerg there are a ridiculous amount of things that you need to be able to recognise and know the counter to.
If we're dealing with one simple all-in, and you're dealing with "those" simple all-in's as well, shouldn't it be easy to recognize "simple" all-ins and be able to counter those "simple" all-ins?
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On February 05 2011 04:03 RoboSnail wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:26 perptuity wrote:On February 02 2011 14:19 morimacil wrote:Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax? Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win. HHAAH morimacil speaks the truth!! We scout for cannon rushes and we throw down cannons via 3 Gate Expo into forge. We don't have to patrol our drone, but we have to scout for proxies just like zergs against terran or protoss because they're so strong. We have to invest in early ling speed + robotics/hallucination to scout you just like you use early ling speed to deny and scout as well. Please don't try to make any race sound worse than the other, all has their own strengths and weaknesses. Everything's fair imo excluding a few recognizable things such as colossi + chokes. Lol This is so true look at all the protoss desperately trying to deal with a simple all in, when we zergs deal with these types of allins from T and P 4 out of 5 matches. Try not being so greedy along with scoutting and cutting some probes like everyone else when faced with an allin.
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Someone has posted it before but after scouting the Roach Den you can easily track their progress with your scouting probe via Xel Naga. Once you see him coming with his 3 roaches+lings quickly block your ramp with the 1 zealot with Gateway and make stalkers. You can either hold on till your warp tech is up or you can chrono them out. 3 Roaches just simply isn't enough to take down 2 gateways. It buys you the time you need to get warp gates up or simply more units out. After defending the initial push your much larger critical mass 4-gate should simply maul him down. Stalkers have longer range than the roaches and can snipe down the lings/roaches without too much trouble. With this build you don't even have to focus on sentries too much (although 1-3 are always a good idea) and focus more on stalkers. Might even transition into blink stalkers to prevent having to break down that 4th or 5th gate.
This push was used against my friend last night and he successfully blocked it many times with this without a sweat. A few smirks. Props to him for figuring it out. This also works vs 5RR 7RR etc.
A pylon won't cut it. Don't try.
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My friend suggest throwing down the forge and cannons like some of you suggested. If they decide not to push because of the cannons you can easily get +1, expand and make a timing push.
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I GET TO FINALLY ENJOY THESE EZtoss players cry.
Ahh it's so nice. This is how zerg feels 90% of all ladder games. Stop QQing.
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I beat this today on the ladder without knowing what it was. If a zerg does not take an expo, I find it more than likely that they are allin-ing and i just go for 2 gate stargate or 3 gate. forcefields work nicely on the ramp as well.
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On February 05 2011 12:25 eZ[]rashin.sama wrote: I GET TO FINALLY ENJOY THESE EZtoss players cry.
Ahh it's so nice. This is how zerg feels 90% of all ladder games. Stop QQing.
No one is crying, zergs basically found a more effective cheese than 6 pool and are using it constantly, and it's already been figured out. Now it's an instant loss if you do this to anyone who knows how to defend it, same as 6pool. If you want to go all-in to win instead of playing standard where protoss or terran have to stop the zerg from just droning up, maybe you should learn to play another race.
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I was playing with a friend, doing a 7 roach rush, with an olord scout to the ramp, and was consistently kicking his ass, until he tried to do a 3 gate, with 2 gates at his ramp, so as to prevent a cyb core getting the snipe. I believe the build that worked was him just making a crap ton of stalkers via 3 gate, cutting probes at one point, with a priority on making units constantly, with a probe when he could afford it, rather than the other way around (also a single sentry and a zealot to plug his zealot-wide hole). I'm assuming that would hold this variation of a roach rush off as well, perhaps test it out with a friend and see how it works out, what timings, what triggers to scout for, etc.
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On February 05 2011 12:55 WoolySheep wrote: I beat this today on the ladder without knowing what it was. If a zerg does not take an expo, I find it more than likely that they are allin-ing and i just go for 2 gate stargate or 3 gate. forcefields work nicely on the ramp as well.
this is why I doubt this build will work well against pro level Toss
the latest standard timing for a Zerg expo in PvZ is a little before the 4 minute mark. so even if a Zerg tries to hide a Roach Warren in some corner of the map, a Toss should be suspecting cheese or some type of aggressive opening if they don't see an expo building by the 4 minute mark.
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Just another build... get over it!
You lost and couldn't figure out why your greedy build wasn't able to hold off an all-in.
As it was said before, toss already solved this.
The game is still new let's all learn together and hold the QQ
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is this on LA server traviz? i know wzp
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On February 05 2011 04:38 resilve wrote:Im no great player, but faced this 3 times today now (before reading this thread >_>), last time I knew what to look for and scouted it the second the roach warren was dropped. It was cross-positions LT - cant think of many longer ground distances too... Still got completely rimmed when I tried to transition from a 13gate->14gas->15core into flat out defence. I dropped 2 additional gates after the first zealot, cut all probes, and chrono'd out stalkers and zealots. It didnt go well. Although the person doing the rush was higher rated than me. Im not really understanding how I could get more units out in a faster time as a response to this, and so I am thinking the only guarenteed way to hold it is cannons? Replay: http://htlr.org/chelios-denvySecond link to same replay: http://www.filefront.com/17894595/RR2.SC2Replay I looked at this replay. You had really bad micro, your stalkers kept attacking lings instead of roaches, and you pulled your probes when it was already over. Also one sentry would have worked much better in this situation.
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i faced this rush for the first time yesterday. When i saw the roach warren dropped down immediately, i had a deja vu moment, hey didn't i read this strat somewhere?
The timing is really sick. Roaches to snipe the zealot blocking the ramp, and speedlings to run in immediately.
I had like 1 zealot 1 stalker, 1 sentry on the way and warpgate research halfway done when i spotted the roaches coming in shakuras horizontal positions.
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my own standard pvz opening for shortish rush maps seems to deal with this ok: constant probe production 9p 12g ~15g pylon scout his nat w/ 1st zealot drop 1 gas after starting 3rd zealot if he didn't expo, drop core and another gate, and start mining gas immediately, then pump a round of zealots before starting on stalkers and warp research if he expoed, CB more zealots to force units and/or just kill his expo, drop core and another gate as you can afford it while constantly making probes/zealots.
When warp research finishes, push and expo follow up with like 5gate robo(obs and immortals), then start teching HT/DT
on long rush maps i tend to FFE instead.
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Are there any trigger-happy banlings who specifically focus on the strategy forums? If not it needs to happen. It would probably be a tedious and thankless job, but someone must be willing to do it. I'm not talking about posts with bad strategy either since I'm not so great myself, but there are tens of posts in this thread which are just plain trolling/idiocy.
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the 5 zealot rush does ok against this
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When I do a 3gate expand i usually put my extra gates up around 4:30 and this rush seems to hit at around 5:20 depending on how well it was executed. What i like to do is make a forge and a gate and do a 2gate forge expand instead of a 3gate expand if i see that Z has not secured his natural at that point. The forge finishes at around 5:15 and then you put up 2-3 cannons and FF your ramp to hold off. This usually works against roach rushes but how do you guys think it would work against this rush? I wish i could post a replay but i don't have SC2 installed on this computer. It is sort of comparable to this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152940
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Just played wzp and he used this cheese. It was my first try against the build, and I defended okay, but there were a lot of micro spots I could have improved upon. I wasted my 1 forcefield for no reason, and I should have walled completely off earlier. Still, I think you could defend pretty easily with zealot/stalker/probe off of 3 gates if you just wall off completely to buy yourself a little extra time.
He told me he screwed up the build tho, so maybe I just had an easy go against it. His attack did manage to kill enough probes to leave the game even, but I think with an earlier wall-off and better judgement about when to use my 1 forcefield, I would have escaped with a lot less damage.
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Hi
Did some testing today with a mate.
I held the push 1 out of 10 tries or so testing on steppes and caverns.
Tried the following builds: A:12gate chronoboost on gateway to put zealot preasure. adding a second gate before cyber.
No success, i get free lings. But after that his army can take out my zealots i manage to get 3 down there 1 first then 2 together. his roach ling finish me off and my best ben from here is to forcefield to buy time enough to get the 4 gate up, timing seems to not work though, he's in my base before it finishes.
B:standart 4 gate I get utterly crushed with 2 zealots out 4 gate finishes but by then he's through my wall and its a micro battle with me on the loosing side as im constantly overpowered in numbers.
C: no wall 4 gate I get crushed. same as above.
D: 3gate expand build with zealot sentries. Same as above, i end up panic throwing down a fourth gate late, because i cant hold it off.
Things i want to test, total wall off with extra gateway or forge, that is thrown down by the time the attack hits.. The idea is to emulate a real game, since even if you scout the roach warren your not sure this is the attack thats comming. See if this can buy me enough time to get enough to defend, or posibly get a cannon down without rushing to the cannon blind.
/Krev
EDIT: when i held he missed a queen spit.
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UPDATE:
someone wanted to know how to beat it
well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to
1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out
2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber
3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech
4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out
thanks for everyone's advice!
I definitely agree that this is one of the best responses to this rush but I prefer finishing my wall off with a pylon. Using a Gateway is very safe but depending on the rush distances I think you can get away with a pylon. I've found that the pylon will fall right around the time I have enough units to defend. If it goes down early, I'll have another force field to seal the gap a delay for my warp in.
This rush is scary! If you make a blunder (supply block yourself or what not), your are 100% screwed. The timings are narrow, but you can hold it.
Edit: Glad to see you edited the post title.
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On February 02 2011 13:08 travis wrote:this is the 3rd time i've played this guy. i even knew this was coming. yes of course i could get a forge and some cannons but let's be honest, if u have to blindly forge and put cannons on top of ur ramp there is something wrong with the matchup. I have never cried imbalance in pvz before because I never thought the matchup was imbalanced, but.. what the hell, come on. could a player better than myself (3200 master) please tell me what im supposed to do? hell, could any player please tell me what to do to stop this? http://www.2shared.com/file/FXZMev4q/how_do_i_beat_this_pvz.htmlUPDATE: someone wanted to know how to beat it well, the best way to beat this by far (that i've found, im sure there's other ways but i really think this is the best way to maintain a huge advantage) is to 1.) scout the timing. scout for roach warren just after pool, keep probe scouting zerg base just until lings are coming out 2.) make a 2nd gateway to complete ur wall. ur wall should be 2gateways and a cyber 3.) make a sentry after zealot like normal, but then start chronoboosting stalkers out while getting warpgate tech 4.) use ur forcefield to delay while u get some more stalkers out thanks for everyone's advice!
I'm just curious...you see that he's going all in, he's cut drones severely and he isn't expanding....but you stick with the one gateway and continue to pump probes.
I get your idea behind the sentries....you clearly can't do it in time but you try anyways.
For starters, build your pilon in the middle of your upper ramp so if you see this all in you can do a wall in. Its a small change you can make that greatly improves your odds of survival.
If you do a gateway gas gateway core, save 2 or 3 chrono's yada yada yada..... I can have 4 stalkers out behind a wall by 4:58 game time. All this while having 19 probes vs his 14 drones.
This attack hit you at 5:15.
The roaches are what will eat your pilon, so if you target fire them down with the stalkers you very well could hold it off without him being able to get the pylon down. If he does get it to the point where its almost down, this wall configuration should allow you to place an emergency blocking pilon behind the first pylon. I was able to do it on metal 5'oclock position, but haven't tried on the other sides.
Did this over 3 practice games so I'm sure it could be refined more. You'd obviously need to scout early, or do the 2 stalker opener blind (which isn't a total fail). You could also reasonably delay the 2nd gateway until later when you would of scouted it for sure...in that case you're likely to only have 3 stalks out by the time the attack hits, with the 4th on the way.
Would love for better players than me to test this out, as I don't have a solid zerg partner to try it with.
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This build doesn't work well against a good Toss, my friend got the hang of how to hold it off on his second game, and it wasn't even close in my second game at that and i had the timing even better second time and positions were close on metalopolis.
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Hey guys, i just got owned today by the noob 5 minute zerg rush. metalopolis In this replay i messed up my force fields, but i this is my build order when i found out what build this guy is doing..
Xel'naga Here is another replay i lost today... I lost 3 games today to this build and i like to know how to adjust my build after scouting it.
Thnx for input! (2.5k point diamond protoss)
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Friend of mine just figured out kinda how to stop this build:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/136011-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
Try using a pylon to wall yourself in. Lings won't be able to break it and neither will roaches. Just pop out a few stalkers and it's GG for zerg as they will only have 14-15 drones to try and survive with.
He scouted the early roaches so skipped the zealot and dropped right into stalker first and 2 gate stalker squished this build.
This is not a perfect solution just giving some food for thought
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The counter to this is getting 1 or 2 early sentries and slamming down 2 gates, and using a pylon to completely wall of to buy time. If played correctly, your warp gate should finish in time and save you. This happened to me 4 times today, I held it off 3 times. After you fend it off, some will try to catch up by expoing and some by just making roaches and doing damage. Follow up with a 4 gate push and gg.
Also Make sure to have a probe by the natural, if by 20~ food there is no expo, you should brace yourself.
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Canada1009 Posts
This build just happened to me today. SO ANNOYING X_X
PvZ just got even worst. -_-
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This Build is AMAZING and it fits in so perfectly, but there is a easy ways to scout this as a protoss player
Stopped Drone production at 15 (major giveaway of an all in) you dont even have to wait for roach warren to go down to realize this, but you should still hang around to make sure.
So do what you need to do since i only play zerg i cant help you in defending it, but if you know this all in is coming then good luck.
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But just like any other ALL IN or any other god dam build, you can counter this all long as you scout it coming, it is very beatable and Addonex proves that
just look at the reply called "new 3rr ling build defeated hard"
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On February 07 2011 15:55 gautamvirk86 wrote: This Build is AMAZING and it fits in so perfectly, but there is a easy ways to scout this as a protoss player
Stopped Drone production at 15 (major giveaway of an all in) you dont even have to wait for roach warren to go down to realize this, but you should still hang around to make sure.
So do what you need to do since i only play zerg i cant help you in defending it, but if you know this all in is coming then good luck.
Actually stopping drone production at 15 food is actually kind quite standard in ZvP if you open 14 gas 14 pool speedling expand. The only real give away is the fast roach warren right after the pool finishes.
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i think now the most toss players get the feeling of being 4gatet. its boring... and because you can crush 4gate with this, and nearly everyone on ladder is 4gating its successful, but its also boring... lol
but i think, toss general is thinking to narrow, everything is based on warpgate tech, why no 2 gate opening with litte early pressure.
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On February 07 2011 04:22 cyrusdm wrote:
For starters, build your pilon in the middle of your upper ramp so if you see this all in you can do a wall in. Its a small change you can make that greatly improves your odds of survival.
If you do a gateway gas gateway core, save 2 or 3 chrono's yada yada yada..... I can have 4 stalkers out behind a wall by 4:58 game time. All this while having 19 probes vs his 14 drones.
This attack hit you at 5:15.
The roaches are what will eat your pilon, so if you target fire them down with the stalkers you very well could hold it off without him being able to get the pylon down. If he does get it to the point where its almost down, this wall configuration should allow you to place an emergency blocking pilon behind the first pylon. I was able to do it on metal 5'oclock position, but haven't tried on the other sides.
Did this over 3 practice games so I'm sure it could be refined more. You'd obviously need to scout early, or do the 2 stalker opener blind (which isn't a total fail). You could also reasonably delay the 2nd gateway until later when you would of scouted it for sure...in that case you're likely to only have 3 stalks out by the time the attack hits, with the 4th on the way.
Would love for better players than me to test this out, as I don't have a solid zerg partner to try it with.
For people still wondering how to stomp this all in, I posted this earlier in the thread and its still effective.
Its as free of a win as you can possibly get.
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On February 07 2011 16:06 gautamvirk86 wrote:But just like any other ALL IN or any other god dam build, you can counter this all long as you scout it coming, it is very beatable and Addonex proves that just look at the reply called "new 3rr ling build defeated hard"
I think this replay shows it fine. The zerg didn't execute his build properly - but regardless the fast stalkers end all possibility of this attack being successful.
I still think its best to include the original pilon in the wall though. By building the pilon in the middle of the upper ramp and then the gateway sealing the one side, you're able to throw down the cyber core behind the 1st gateway and then put a 2nd gateway down completely sealing off the entrance.
Also, one comment about the build that Addonex posted a replay off...I think you can delay your 2nd pilon so that you can get your 2nd gateway out a little sooner. I don't believe this will result in you getting supply locked and it gets you stalkers that much faster.
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I'm a little confused on all the QQ about not being able to beat a build specifically made to counter your build. Especially when you open normally. If you refuse to change your BO, you're going to get beat. I'm a little irritated, regardless of who you are, that you ask for advice and then refuse to try any of it.
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i played against this recently. i had my probe in his base, and saw that he put down a roach immediately after his pool was done. i responded by putting down a forge immediately and 2 cannons. however, i feel that a robo transition into obs to see what he's doing is a poor choice. Especially since he transitioned into muta/ling and tore me apart. I think it would be better to 3 gate (or maybe 4), get hallu asap (comes out wicked fast with chrono), apply pressure and either kill him or expand behind it.
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Dear Davis,
I watched your replay a couple of times and noted the following in chronological order:
- 1st pylon is 20 minerals late. - If you go for a 12 gate, thats shaves of another 17 seconds, granted the 13th probe is a bit delayed. (huge imo) - cyber is 50 minerals late. - 2nd gas is definitely a mistake. - how did you scoute exactly? The probe only saw drones. - Ur APM was mostly 60ish (like me and i'm in bronze league in EU) - Dont queue stuff, day9 hates it - At the 5:00 mark you had 23 probes and a 150/100 army, zealot and sentry.
I downloaded the qxc tester map, tested a bit and came up with the following probe/army comp (even took the probe of minerals that created the gateway)
- 26 probes (could be more, I screwed up) - 2 zealots, 2 sentries and a wooping 5 stalkers
On another note, you could go fast forge as the +1 attack really helps vs lings. +1 is also very good with collosus, which I assume your midgame plan was anyways (and a rush like that does not throw off a master off this midgame plan, right?)
btw, what was your midgame plan? In 5 mins I can also get 27 probes, 1 zealot and sentry, 2 stalkers and 2 immortals.
-Taakie
Nevermind, the timer in the build tester is waayyyyyyyyy off Got 1 zealot and 2 stalkers .... lol
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I've noticed that zerg players don't really know how to deal with this build either. They always go heavy on roaches in zvz and are not expecting the early speedlings. If you are faster than your opponent in zvz then odds are you will win with this build.
Now if I could just figure out how to beat Terran players quickly. Those are always long games ><
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Speedling expand builds often are 14 pool 14 gas or 14 gas 13 pool. So if you see a 13 pool 12 gasl then you can go ahead and have your probe at his base when pool finish. Don't know what is best, 13 pool --> chance to sneak an expansion when the protoss probe is scouting the main or a 14 pool --> expand a bit later.
I am 700 points behind you so the zerg players you are playing would win vs me regardless of what build they use. But i can really notice how good zergplayers can get ahead of you very fast, and i understand why you need to block this hatchery as long as possible in order to not to get to far behind.
I am also a bit worried about the state of TL. People don't seams to realize that you are interested in ways to incorporate a counter into your standard protoss play.
And i plan to learn to see the difference between a 13 and a 14 pool because of this rush.
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TT1 just fell to this on his stream. He went forge expand with 4 or 5 cannons on lost temple. He put the forge and gateway in front of his cannons. The 3 roaches picked off the forge and a high ground pylon and later banelings came in to clean up the cannons.
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I think this just happened to me on zel naga and because of this awesome thread, I totally over reacted and made 3 canons and held it off easily. Just wanted to say thanks to the people in this thread for making me win this :D and share the replay of the game.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/136335-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dna
(im only high diamond Eu player, dont expect too much. I do realise a good zerg wouldve killed me because I invested ALOT (too much?) in cannons.
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I am just a bit curious why you did not scout his pool? (or was the replay broken?) You saw his gas finished (or at least how much gased he had mined) as you did that curl around and then seen his pool finished right afterwards. That would had given you the intel that he was not going for speed asap.
Then you should at least expected that he was doing something unorthodox. Like roaches, banelings or perhaps fast lair, or some weird fast expand with later ling speed build (however the fact that he got pool first mean he can't afford the expand hatch that quickly and your probe could had blocked it).
I am not that good with protoss since I play zerg. However if I were you I would first try delay second gas. In other words second gate, before second gas and third gate when you could afford it. (this perhaps delay second sentry? however you had 1 unspent chrono boost that might make up for it ??? produce mainly stalkers and sentries,perhaps first unit has to be a zealot). Scout to see expanded if not, use chrono boost on units rather than warp gate might be an option. If that did not work I would put down 1 forge before second gas then second gateway (as response to his spawning pool and not necessarily required to scout the roach warren) and play a forge fast expand game (sound a bit flimsy when I put that thought into words).
Blocking the ramp with pylon or gateway seem not so drastical since you then know his economy is lacking. All you need is to buy time.
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Woah, this is damn strong o.O Wouldn't stalkers + Complete walloff be able to deal with it?
Just to throw something out there: I'm saying forge FE will become standard for toss, as in, nearly every Game. This will be ONE of the strongest zerg all-ins against it, and can be stopped by adding more cannons + cancelling Nexus.
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On February 08 2011 06:43 SlapMySalami wrote: TT1 just fell to this on his stream. He went forge expand with 4 or 5 cannons on lost temple. He put the forge and gateway in front of his cannons. The 3 roaches picked off the forge and a high ground pylon and later banelings came in to clean up the cannons.
How did the roaches pick off the buildings on lost temple ?If you have 4-5 cannons you should be able to defend the wall from EVERY angle. Hell, I think 4-5 cannons is the max you can put behind the walls, iirc. He probably didn't know this build yet and was surprised. If he put supporting pylons he would've done better.
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How about blindly opening with a Forge, then when you scout if you see any indication of the roach rush you make cannons otherwise you transition into 4GATE +1 attack upgrade or FE with cannons. Wouldn't that work?
Stalkers + Complete wall off also work.
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Let a bad player tell you how to stop this. You cut probe and make faster gateway. faster cyber core. faster units to defend. Everything is faster by losing a bit of economy.
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Ever since this thread this build has become a lot more popular, but forge is still the best option. Two cannons, a zealot, and chronoing out sentries does just fine holding this off. Transitioning to robotics play afterward is a bad idea, and it's generally better to three or four gate behind this to put a lot of pressure so they will lose right away if they droned too hard, and if they defend, you're ahead. I've yet to lose to this after playing it a couple times. It's easy to spot, and it's easy to defend. I don't do any builds that straight-counter it, so maybe that's why I have a lot of success - what I do safely gets me to midgame without being behind at all, and likely putting him behind instead.
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I held this off fairly easily the other day by just blocking with a 2nd gateway and doing the stalker thing. It works, he built the units anyways and I held it off, transitioned to blink but realized before pushing out that he was gonna have a ton of speedlings, mixed in some zealots meaning i had to kill a gateway to get out of the base. I blocked it with a pylon and threw down a nexus and proxy pylon with my blink + zealot attack. He barely held it off with hydra/ling and the game just kind of turned into a normal game from there.
My concern was in watching the replay and noticing that he surpassed my worker count in 1 cycle (2 total but one of them he gets to choose if hes gonna reinforce or drone). Since he retreated wisely after losing just 2 roaches, he still had a lot of stuff to defend his base with, he was able to freely drone and surpass me very easily, hold off my timed attack (though it was delayed by zealots) and be fairly even with me. I actually disconnected from this game around 15 minutes but we were pretty even at that point, I was like 3k ahead in points on the score screen.
I guess I can't help feeling that an All-In SHOULD be almost impossible to recover from. He wasn't actually behind at all.
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This build can be tricky because a tiny micro mistake can cause you to lose it. You ought to be scouting the entire game vs zerg, so if you no it's coming it is very easy to stop. For example, this just happened to me on Steppes of War which zerg really like to do on that map.
I scouted on 9, saw a pool on 14, and then a gas right after. I was like okay, hmmm maybe this build because the gas comes after pool all the times I've run into this build. Either way, I continued doing my thing. If you play fairly standard in PvZ, then you're probably going for something like a 3gate expand on SoW. This is what I was doing, so my next unit out of my gateway was a sentry.
The probe I originally scouted with, I was hiding somewhere on the map in order to suicide it into his base. When I did so, I saw no hatch. was like uh oh. Threw up a forge. Since I was going 3 gate expand, I was making sentries anyways. So when he came, i FF the bottom of the ramp. Your warpgates should be finishing just as he is getting there. So with a few FF's at the bottom of the ramp, you can get a few more sentries out when warpgate is done and throw up a couple cannons and be just fine. If need be completely wall off.
On LT, I go 15nexus. I love when zerg tries to bust my front, because they will inevitably fail. The choke is to small. You just need to make sure you're constantly scouting and suiciding probes into his base. If you don't see an expo you obviously know something is up. Depending on the threat level, you put up how many ever cannons you think you need. If he's going for some sort of roach bust, put a couple cannons on the high ground at the choke.
The key with these builds is to make sure you are scouting. It really helps to hide your first scouting probe and then suicide him in at like 4 mins or so. If you don't see an expo, then get ready to defend (throw down a forge and chrono out some sentries).
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So when he came, i FF the bottom of the ramp. Your warpgates should be finishing just as he is getting there.
The zerg you were playing against did this build wrong then (especially considering it was SoW). The whole point is that it arrives before warpgate, that's the beauty of it and why it's so hard to stop. One FF is not nearly enough time.
I tried this build under the assumption that I'd lose, and said I would stop doing it after the first loss. All-in rush builds make me feel guilty. Unfortunately I'm still doing it because it hasn't lost once. No one has tried walling in with stalkers, that probably will be my first loss. Protoss is a free win on ladder right now. The closest thing to a loss was actually against a forge FE, but I actually got in and killed off the toss's main so it went into a "normal" longer game.
2800-3000 Master.
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This is cheese Travis, so if you complete a wall off with a forge and make a cannon or two, hes going to be behind.
From there, just do a timing attack when he tries to drone back up.
But I'm not downplaying the fact that this is hard to stop, because it is.
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Maybe it is just me but I have been crushing all these roach/ling attacks all day. I do regular 3 gate, but when I see the Warren I stop the 3rd gate and make a forge, you only need one cannon to defend against it...
If the Zerg contains me I just get +1/+1 and bust out with Immortals :S, Zerg is super behind at that point
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Noob.. ZvP is imba for Protoss. Cry more.
User was warned for this post
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here is some very nice defend from 3 roach after opening 2 gate: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/137864-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
didntt seem like the canon is even needed, ofc if the initial 3 roaches didnt get traped on ramp by mismicro... instead killing zealots from side thanks to overlord vision, canon would probably help a lot then.
so you can start 2 gate for pressure in case of early expand, while still beeing perfectly safe from 3 roach ling by just puting cyber after scouting warren and walling off
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I tried the advice in the OP for fending this off and it seems to work brilliantly. You scout the roach warren right as your cybercore goes down then wall off with a second gate, make a second gas, and then chrono out stalkers after your first sentry. The attack hits around when you have 1 zealot, 1 sentry, and 2 stalkers close to done. When the stalkers pop it is pretty easy to handle, make sure you just keep pumping them out and add a third gateway and resume probe production as soon as you can handle it.
My question is now how to follow through for the win. Obvious follow throughs are 4 gate, though you need to destroy one of your wall in gates. I tried rushing for blink and pumping stalkers out of 3-4 gates and attacking soon after blink was done. I won the game but against a better zerg I think I would have been in some trouble, or at least gone into a longer game. He did have hydras and said that he thinks he should have rushed hydra a bit sooner to defend.
BTW for everyone that has commented in this thread or any other with "here's what I think" your advice is next to useless, please just go practice whatever you are commenting on to see how it feels and then report back. So annoying having to sift through hundreds of posts of 95% misguided comments to find the people who have actually been trying the builds.
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Drudging up an aging thread, but I was wondering what initial building placement should be. The norm against Zerg would be a Gate/Core block with a 1 tile space for a Zealot to block. Is there a safe opener that allows one to block off the 3roach/speedling build, or is the 1 tile space even necessary anymore? There are several maps where an early pool guarantees the lings getting into your base before the Zealot comes out, or is my thought process wrong.
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On February 19 2011 12:38 Supah wrote: Drudging up an aging thread, but I was wondering what initial building placement should be. The norm against Zerg would be a Gate/Core block with a 1 tile space for a Zealot to block. Is there a safe opener that allows one to block off the 3roach/speedling build, or is the 1 tile space even necessary anymore? There are several maps where an early pool guarantees the lings getting into your base before the Zealot comes out, or is my thought process wrong.
I actually just made a guide addressing this. Let me know your thoughts.
[G] A Smarter Protoss Wall-In?
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me defending this 3 roach ling rush , that comes at my ramp at 5.00 on close posi metalopolis check it out :
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If you do a properly executed 1 gas 4 gate, you can get out 1 zeal, 1 stalker, 1 sentry, and then have warpgates done just as your first FF runs out on anymap except for steppes
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Gonna be honest I'm one of those guys who didn't bother reading everyone's posts but the OP. If this is since irrelevant please ignore over flame.
My defense of the 3 roach push a few seconds later than yours because of rush distance
Break down:
1. Cut probe production as soon as I see roach. 2. Chrono all used on stalkers none on warpgate 3. Be ready to fully wall in with pylon if you think you're in trouble(more necessary on shorter rush distance maps) 4. 3 gates, I know robo is your first reaction when you see roach warren, but you wont have the time or funds for an immortal in time. 5. instead of your normal 2 gate tech, go 3 gate. 6. Transistion into 4 gate, easy win as Zerg has no choice but to try and expand already down in probe count.
Btw: This is Cheese, this is all in. Zerg can not effectively transition out of this, ever. If it's scouted it is easily countered for the win. If it takes you by surprise you're gonna be fucked.
Zboss 2.9k Diamond.
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On February 28 2011 10:32 zab329 wrote:Gonna be honest I'm one of those guys who didn't bother reading everyone's posts but the OP. If this is since irrelevant please ignore over flame. My defense of the 3 roach push a few seconds later than yours because of rush distance Break down: 1. Cut probe production as soon as I see roach. 2. Chrono all used on stalkers none on warpgate 3. Be ready to fully wall in with pylon if you think you're in trouble(more necessary on shorter rush distance maps) 4. 3 gates, I know robo is your first reaction when you see roach warren, but you wont have the time or funds for an immortal in time. 5. instead of your normal 2 gate tech, go 3 gate. 6. Transistion into 4 gate, easy win as Zerg has no choice but to try and expand already down in probe count. Btw: This is Cheese, this is all in. Zerg can not effectively transition out of this, ever. If it's scouted it is easily countered for the win. If it takes you by surprise you're gonna be fucked. Zboss 2.9k Diamond.
Yo, no offense man, but this was a poor game for both sides. You let the zerg take your gas, and then had a pretty much worthless FF while you let him snipe your sentry. You then didn't do ure warpgates for a good 30s after the research was done. You could have killed those 3 roaches without losing a single unit. Then on the zerg's side the rush was horrible, he didn't even have his zerglings with him and just threw away his 3 roaches for no reason, not to mention he didn't have speedlings.
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On February 21 2011 16:58 turbopasca1 wrote:me defending this 3 roach ling rush , that comes at my ramp at 5.00 on close posi metalopolis check it out :
I think it was a good defense, but I'm also curious how you transition into the win, especially after this defense. You have to kill a whole gateway when you're ready to expand or push. I think a 2 gas sentry stalker defense with a pylon block is more appropriate. Once again though, how do you guys recommend transitioning into the win? Should you just expand and get more ahead? Or do some sort of 3 gate robo 1 base?
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Im only diamond but i would recommend to chrono your gateways instead of warpgate tech and getting a few more sentrys b4 he hits and this buys you time to get troops out
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On February 28 2011 11:51 Acridice wrote: I think it was a good defense, but I'm also curious how you transition into the win, especially after this defense. You have to kill a whole gateway when you're ready to expand or push. I think a 2 gas sentry stalker defense with a pylon block is more appropriate. Once again though, how do you guys recommend transitioning into the win? Should you just expand and get more ahead? Or do some sort of 3 gate robo 1 base?
at the time the attack hits it's going to be 25 to 14 supply, and he has a choice to drone or produce income, but it's on one base. Zerg's only chance is to expand, while you've been running on a strong 1 base for a very long time now and you can just roll them pretty safely on 1 base by adding a 4th gate or a robo.
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The 3RR + speedling rush can be stopped; check the OP for one good option (although there's several things you can do to stop it; another common response I've seen is getting a single cannon by your ramp once your probe scouts the roach warren; then wall + FF to victory).
After Protoss stops the rush, it's practically auto-win since their probe saturation is miles ahead of the Zerg, making their economy way stronger. Protoss can either all-in 4-gate and crush the Zerg outright, or expand safely and pressure the Zerg into making crawlers to defend their expo and waste even more drones/economy.
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I just look for a roach warren if he didnt expand and then put down a forge, then chorno boost out 2 lots (keep making probes) then put 2 cannnon on the ramp ez ez counter
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Looking at the strategy, because he's floating the OL around, couldn't he send a second OL over to do an OL Sac around the 3-4 minute mark to see if it is indeed safe to commit with the build or if it would be more worthwhile to start droning up? The counters for this build seem to include a lot of "Cut probe production" so while the Protoss player is still probing up, the zerg could drone up and throw down an expansion. Hell, even using the spotting Overlord to scout the wall a little should give you good info on whether or not to commit to the 3 Roaches + Slings or to morph Lair and powerdrone/expand.
While it is "All in" the moment they start morphing the Mass SLings + 3 Roaches, he still has options even after throwing down the Roach Warren.
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According to Minigun, you can't stop this rush unless you wall off completely, so scouting + walling off are essential components of stopping this rush
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Build is easy to stop, wall off, build a forge and a couple cannons, build a stargate, hold off attack get a couple void rays and win. hardest part is scouting it. After I figured this out, i have not lost to this build.
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Seriously, thank you so much for posting this. I just beat a #3 diamond ranked protoss with this build. I fixed it up a bit compared to what that kid did. But this build works very nice. Overlord placement is so important. He even had 6 zealots and 2 stalkers when I did my timing attack, and I won with ease, thanks to reinforcing lings. This build works very well due to the fact your lings are what's tanking the damage, meanwhile your roaches take down the gateway units and push you're able to out mass your opponent due to the strong one base.
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On February 28 2011 11:41 Acridice wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 10:32 zab329 wrote:Gonna be honest I'm one of those guys who didn't bother reading everyone's posts but the OP. If this is since irrelevant please ignore over flame. My defense of the 3 roach push a few seconds later than yours because of rush distance Break down: 1. Cut probe production as soon as I see roach. 2. Chrono all used on stalkers none on warpgate 3. Be ready to fully wall in with pylon if you think you're in trouble(more necessary on shorter rush distance maps) 4. 3 gates, I know robo is your first reaction when you see roach warren, but you wont have the time or funds for an immortal in time. 5. instead of your normal 2 gate tech, go 3 gate. 6. Transistion into 4 gate, easy win as Zerg has no choice but to try and expand already down in probe count. Btw: This is Cheese, this is all in. Zerg can not effectively transition out of this, ever. If it's scouted it is easily countered for the win. If it takes you by surprise you're gonna be fucked. Zboss 2.9k Diamond. Yo, no offense man, but this was a poor game for both sides. You let the zerg take your gas, and then had a pretty much worthless FF while you let him snipe your sentry. You then didn't do ure warpgates for a good 30s after the research was done. You could have killed those 3 roaches without losing a single unit. Then on the zerg's side the rush was horrible, he didn't even have his zerglings with him and just threw away his 3 roaches for no reason, not to mention he didn't have speedlings.
Not gonna tell you I'm pro but to respond:
1. When I saw roach warren I cut probe production and get 3-gate, that's my response. My mistake wasn't letting zerg get the gas, but taking it after, I don't remember why I did that.
2. True my FF was oddly timed and the sentry did get sniped. - I missed clicked my sentry trying to draw it back, by the time I clicked it it was about to die, I threw down a ff to use it's energy. And the FF saved the lings from entering my base = successful? Misclicks suck we've all been there.
3. And my warpgates were a little late true, but the tech finished as the attack was happening, I'm not pro so I was busy(trying to micro), wasn't a huge deal, I was able to stop the attack b/c of chronoboosting units before hand.
4. He had speedlings... so yeah.
5. His zerglings came right when they were suppose to after the roaches broke the seal. The problem was I had more units that were "suppose" to be there b/c I was chronoboosting them out of 2 and then a 3rd gateway = how I am demonstrating the defense to the strat..
Conclusion: Yes there were a few minor details that were off on both our parts. That's why I am probably in 2.9k diamond instead of masters. But this is still IMO a good example of defending the 3 roach attack. In masters league BOTH players would have cleaner play, but the result would be the same.
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On February 28 2011 15:28 JerKy wrote: According to Minigun, you can't stop this rush unless you wall off completely, so scouting + walling off are essential components of stopping this rush
If you scout the full wall off (Seems to be done with 2 Gates and the Cyber) + Chronos on the Gateways, it should be quite visible to your spotting OL. If you scout this move after starting the Roach Warren but before committing to the production of attack units minus the first 2 lings, you should be able to transition into a macro build and have additional time to macro up a defense in the face of a push since you can keep an eye out on his wall with the spotting overlord to determine his push timing since you can see him start tearing down one of the wall in buildings.
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Just watched this replay again, so fun :D
I can throw out this build as nicely as wzp can now i reckon and will always keep it in mind vs a protoss. So good against such a common protoss build.
The drawbacks are pretty clear though, at the time the roaches get there you are 14 drones to 24 probes, you have to do damage.
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Stopping this pretty easily, when I spot it I just drop an earlier second gate (around 24-25 food), then I just chronoboost sentires non stop, you should be able to hold easily if you can keep the ramp force fielded.
But I have no idea what to do with the excess minerals, since you are making Sentries non-stop, by the time you hit the magic number of 6 sentries, your minerals end up jumping to 800+ easily, but your low on gas though
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Someone did this to me in zvz against a fast expand (with 4 spine crawlers and 2 queens to block the ramp); suddenly I don't like this build that much anymore...
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You could wall it off with a forge instead of a pylon. Then out range the roach/lings with ur sentries while you buy yourself sometime. Until the cannons are up.
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I wonder if the Z build can be refined a bit more by going 11 pool --> earlier zergling to deny scouting probe like the 7 RR, and drop the roach warren once probe is dead, and then pulling guys off gas after to support lings. It's very tricky to scout in that case and the P needs to send a 2nd probe in a bit later to see the lack of hatchery and tons of units moving out to respond properly.
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On February 28 2011 19:25 Dommk wrote: Stopping this pretty easily, when I spot it I just drop an earlier second gate (around 24-25 food), then I just chronoboost sentires non stop, you should be able to hold easily if you can keep the ramp force fielded.
But I have no idea what to do with the excess minerals, since you are making Sentries non-stop, by the time you hit the magic number of 6 sentries, your minerals end up jumping to 800+ easily, but your low on gas though
stalkers
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I countered this build versus a 3600 masters zerg with a 3 gate standard opening with decent pylon/gateway placement (after messing up my initial wall) on Mr Bitter's stream last night.
Don't know what all the fuss is about, just cut workers to get all 3 gates out faster - no need for a forge.
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On February 28 2011 23:31 Antimage wrote: I countered this build versus a 3600 masters zerg with a 3 gate standard opening with decent pylon/gateway placement (after messing up my initial wall) on Mr Bitter's stream last night.
Don't know what all the fuss is about, just cut workers to get all 3 gates out faster - no need for a forge.
Did you make a complete wall? If so, did you just use a pylon to complete the wall? I have a real problem with completely walling off with a second gateay. I dunno, I guess you could just transition to a blink all-in if you do that, but I'd still be more comfortable with just walling with a pylon.
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No i did not make a complete wall. I lost my first 2 units but I made 2 sentries to FF while pulling probes. I warped in 3 zealots and used my probes to clean up with the help of my building placement.
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What's wrong with building a forge? Even if he doesn't do this strat, you're going to need it to defend a potential expo and get upgrades anyway.
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If you build a forge then you'll miss out on a potential counter-attack (which you will have a chance to do with more gates), allowing the zerg to more readily recover from his early-game gamble.
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Hi Antimage! I am really sorry this is a bit off topic but do you usually 3 gate anyway? Also do you still opening void ray every game? What is your standard build these days?
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If you're 3 gating with sentries, then your safe, because you get earlier gateways and can pull out a round of units before warpgate Just make sure that you chrono first round of units out instead of warpgate like your normally would
If your 4 gating, youre OK if you scout/block with gateway and its a hardcore 4 gate with max chronoboost on warpgates
Basically, if you wanna beat a clean, well executed build order, you need a clean well executed build order yourself
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On March 01 2011 10:05 milfhunter wrote: Hi Antimage! I am really sorry this is a bit off topic but do you usually 3 gate anyway? Also do you still opening void ray every game? What is your standard build these days?
When I was on his stream, I asked him this. He doesn't use the void ray expand anymore, but he does use the 3 gate sentry expo (iirc).
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I just played like 15 custom games against a comp to figure out the correct timings to hold this push. I made the assumption that the 3roaches get to your base at 5:00 even. I chrono boosted my warpgate tech all the way through while making 2 sentries out of my first gate. Then I have one more chrono boost for the tail end of the second sentry which I use on the gateway itself which hustles out your 2nd sentry in time for another FF and also brings your warpgate up quicker. With this build, I was able to keep the ramp with a permanent FF on it starting from 5 Mins. I'll upload replay.
Here is the replay: Counter 3 Roach Rush with 3 gate
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On March 01 2011 10:24 iChau wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 10:05 milfhunter wrote: Hi Antimage! I am really sorry this is a bit off topic but do you usually 3 gate anyway? Also do you still opening void ray every game? What is your standard build these days? When I was on his stream, I asked him this. He doesn't use the void ray expand anymore, but he does use the 3 gate sentry expo (iirc).
Yes I actually did see that on his game, thats why I wanted to ask. it just feels like at the low master level, 3 gate expo will make you so behind because its so easy for the Z to take a 3rd, and your sentry zealots certainlly isn't going to be able to put ANY sort of pressure on the Z at all without risking loosing everything you got.
Even with perfect forcefields, mid map its just so suicidal when there is speedlings running around.
IChau what do you like opening with? Do you guys reckon a 15 nexus will be able to hold off 3roach speedlings?
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On March 01 2011 14:00 milfhunter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 10:24 iChau wrote:On March 01 2011 10:05 milfhunter wrote: Hi Antimage! I am really sorry this is a bit off topic but do you usually 3 gate anyway? Also do you still opening void ray every game? What is your standard build these days? When I was on his stream, I asked him this. He doesn't use the void ray expand anymore, but he does use the 3 gate sentry expo (iirc). Yes I actually did see that on his game, thats why I wanted to ask. it just feels like at the low master level, 3 gate expo will make you so behind because its so easy for the Z to take a 3rd, and your sentry zealots certainlly isn't going to be able to put ANY sort of pressure on the Z at all without risking loosing everything you got. Even with perfect forcefields, mid map its just so suicidal when there is speedlings running around. IChau what do you like opening with? Do you guys reckon a 15 nexus will be able to hold off 3roach speedlings?
When you 3 gate expand, then zerg has to match your army, and as a result, zerg will be cutting his econ to do so
Obviously, you have to actually force him to match your army by applying SOME kind of pressure, because if he say, makes an entire round of drones with zero zerglings, and you turn up at his nat right after, he loses the game
If he has actually make those zerglings, then youre in a good position, mostly because zerglings are very larvae expensive. Not only that, the key is to attack really early, (and i mean REALLY early) - hence why whenever i 3g expand ill spend all my chrono on gates so that i can do an early a push as possible with my 3g. The reason is the earlier you pressure zerg, the less econ he has and the more he has to invest in army, which again, makes it EVEN MORE difficult to come back. Most low-mid(even high) masters tosses push out way too late and zerg has already saturated his main and natural, and THEN makes the big wad of zerglings Lastly, for your "early push" timing you have to actually scout the zergs army count.. somehow One way of doing this is using hallucinate (which you have to invest in asap when your warpgate finishes) - which is too slow if oyur opponent didnt do a gas/pool build, in which case his speed lings are late so you need to push out with your first stalker/zealot to scout and force some lings
If you 3g expand, even if zerg matches your initial army, but then he greeds like crazy then you are going to be behind because you let him greed like crazy, so constant pressure is really important
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Watch this replay... I believe it is a solution to the problem
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/145026-1v1-protoss-steppes-of-war
You definitely don't need cannons to stop this. Cannons may make it easy, but if you don't wanna waste money on static defenses you don't need to. I stopped this the other day on my friends comp, and my micro was horrible cuz his mouse and shit was weird. If you keep doin a 3 gate expand build you're usually okay with chrono's on your warpgates. I also blocked off with a couple pylons. It was messy but I cleaned it up and only lost like 3 probes.
The replay above though is a different solution. If you chrono your cyber 4 times and your gateway once to hustle out the 2nd sentry you can have your ramp FF from the 5 min mark until your warpgate tech is up and then u can have it perma FF. Try reading more than the OP guys.
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wtf dude nice thread, I'm gonna steal his build for my zerg play ;D Just kicked some protoss ass with it^^
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On February 28 2011 23:31 Antimage wrote: I countered this build versus a 3600 masters zerg with a 3 gate standard opening with decent pylon/gateway placement (after messing up my initial wall) on Mr Bitter's stream last night.
Don't know what all the fuss is about, just cut workers to get all 3 gates out faster - no need for a forge. Can I have a link to this video? I could learn a lot from it.
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Do people still lose to this? 3gate expand crushes this so hard (you just need earlier gates). When you go for 6 sentry perma ramp block, your money sky rockets, you can chronoboost your nexus non stop through the entire time, when you expand you can have your expo at 80% saturation the moment it comes up while the Zerg is screwed
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On March 01 2011 04:31 Antimage wrote: If you build a forge then you'll miss out on a potential counter-attack (which you will have a chance to do with more gates), allowing the zerg to more readily recover from his early-game gamble. Don't mean to sound like I know it better than you, you're higher than me after all. However, the roach rush is pretty much all in, if you hold it you're so far ahead you don't even need to punish him because he already is. Forge is less risky in this situation and it's also extremely helpfull in surviving early pool rushes. What I'd do is expand right after I beat his roach push, then go 6 gate timing push after +1 dmg finishes, 14 forge just feels a lot more safe, I can hardly imagine him surviving this after his semi-allin earlier . This is all my opinion of course, but is it really that important to counter attack after it?
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