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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
Forge takes 50 seconds to build. You held that ramp for over a minute, meaning cannos would've had time to finish too, if you started the forge the second you saw a warren.
The second he drops that warren, he had not yet chased your scout out, he had no lings.
You had PLENTY of time to get up 2 cannons and auto win, since his attack was beyond all in.
On February 02 2011 13:39 eth3n wrote:
and scouting a pool officially requires building a forge now 8)
No, he could've easily scouted the warren, his scout wasn't chased out, he just left. Scouting a warren when zerg has 14 drones? Drop forge.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 Tantaburs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. if you knew it was coming then why did you not build cannons
because the matchup is retarded if i have to blindly get cannons every game vs zerg? i wanted to try to stop it without cannons.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this.
if i forged it would have to be ahead of time it'd be a pretty blind forge and that's pretty ridiculous don't u think?
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. or terran had to get 2 bunkers regardless of whatever else it was making.
This marks the day where Travis, one of the few veterans still left here loses his faith in TL.
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This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least.
http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p
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On February 02 2011 13:40 ch33psh33p wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. Forge takes 50 seconds to build. You held that ramp for over a minute, meaning cannos would've had time to finish too, if you started the forge the second you saw a warren.
a forcefield lasts 15 seconds, right?
i used 2 forcefields.
if even when i scouted the lack of an expansion i put down a forge cannons would not be done in time, I would have to add on to my wall. im sure its stoppable using cannons in theory but what about all the times I am not able to scout him?
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On February 02 2011 13:41 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 Tantaburs wrote:On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. if you knew it was coming then why did you not build cannons because the matchup is retarded if i have to blindly get cannons every game vs zerg? i wanted to try to stop it without cannons.
you dont have to blindy get cannons but if you scout a roach ling all in then yeah you need cannons.
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On February 02 2011 13:41 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:38 Tantaburs wrote:On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
some of u must not watch the replays very carefully.
firstly, i was already quite confident he would do this build. secondly, i DID scout the lack of an expansion(as so many of u told me i needed to do), and at that point i knew exactly what was coming.
some of u guys... just give unbelievable advice. like none of it would work in time to stop this. if you knew it was coming then why did you not build cannons because the matchup is retarded if i have to blindly get cannons every game vs zerg? i wanted to try to stop it without cannons.
How are you getting cannons blindly? You scout warren, drop forge, win game. I don't get why you're so against cannons, when clearly its the solution against zerg all ins that HE CANNOT RECOVER FROM.
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Lol. When I saw the thread topic, I had a feeling it might be this strat. Actually the guy didn't even do it all that great. Better way is to drone to 17, queen+warren at once, pull drones off gas @ 175mined, then same roach+massling but expand while at it. I've called this maxamrush for some while, since I've faced guy called that 5 times in blistering pvz and everytime done exactly the same.
I don't know how you should exactly play it out, but imo chronoing warp throughout if you see warren would be the best. I lost more times to this than won, but when I did just very fast 4gate with 5stalkers @ 5:30 I won it. Also it's true you should block the ramp with pylon instead of zealot if you know it's coming. That buys the required extra time. I suppose it's possible to counter this with sentries too, I just don't like it. Indeed going for cannons just because you see he starts warren isn't smart. You'll defend this rush, but lose if he changes his gameplan at all.
Basically imo you should defend it as you defend vs 6-10pools. If you sense it's coming, switch to 4gate. It's damn hard to counter, and when well executed the 1base zerg will definately lose to it if he gets no massive dmg done with the earlypool. From my experience very few <3,2k zergs ever win well executed 4gate in normal circumstances - zerg that craps on his own eco has even less of a chance. So I'd just go for saved chrono for warp and have it ready @ 5:20 or so and kill the guy if he tries this. 1gas, max 1 sentry. Ofc preferably you should do 10-12gate if you expect any cheesiness.
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I lost a few games to a similar build earlier today too. It might be worth it to completely wall your front using either a pylon, or even placing one of your gateways there so your wall consists of a core and 2 gateways. That will stall long enough for you to get out a round of stalkers.
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On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p
im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to.
i might get an immortal out as his roaches and speedlings enter my base and now i have an immortal to fight 1 or 2 roaches and 30 speedlings, doesn't sound like a very good plan
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lings are too good if they get a surround, I would say more zealots, and chrono units instead of warpgate, or make a complte wall with a forge as soon as you see it and add a cannon, he is totally all in at that point.
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On February 02 2011 13:44 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to.
It's how I stop roach rushes, I have never lost to a roach rush with it. I realize the zerglings are an additional problem, I don't know how to deal with that. But for god's sake just try it, I'm good enough to realize an immortal is good against roaches and that it can pop almost in time, probably in time if optimized, just try it. Or keep complaining that no one can help you at Zerg is imba. I also get 2 warp gates up, with more efficient use of chrono boosting, perhaps you could warp in an additional 2 units in time. It's not just an immortal, it's 2 zealots, a stalker, 2 warp ins, and an immortal
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I think maybe you could have made a couple more zealots and try to stall for stalkers, but I'm not sure.
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On February 02 2011 13:35 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:29 echuchee wrote:
Well one way to stop it was to do exactly what you were doing(keep cranking sentries out). You could have had a 3rd sentry out if you cancelled the sentry that was no where near being finished. Then made ure gateway a warpgate and warped the sentry in. You should be able to permanently keep it out after warpgate tech finishes.
~3k Masters no... watch the replay carefully. there is no way to keep forcefielding the ramp in time to keep the roaches out. u don't have enough forcefields. and then as soon as the roaches get up ur zealot dies, and ur sentries will be next to die
Woops, looking back at it, that would have worked if you had just a few more seconds. Well i guess the next best thing, is if you know its coming, then photons are the way to go. When they broke through you had 450 minerals and 200 gas. I'm sure the minerals could have been put into photons. You just have to use them to delay a bit until warpgate tech finishes.
Non Forge Option:
I also saw suggestions in this thread for putting up a pylon to block it to buy time, but that would die way too quickly, you could consider putting a gateway down to block the gap, since it takes over twice as much hp and shields and only costs 50 minerals more, this could buy you even more time. After you buy yourself that time warpgate tech should be finished. Then make your 3 other gates into warpgates and u should be able to make enough units in time to defend it when they breach(may have to pull a few probes, but since their build is pretty much all-in, probes dieing wont hurt you too bad.
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On February 02 2011 13:35 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:29 echuchee wrote:
Well one way to stop it was to do exactly what you were doing(keep cranking sentries out). You could have had a 3rd sentry out if you cancelled the sentry that was no where near being finished. Then made ure gateway a warpgate and warped the sentry in. You should be able to permanently keep it out after warpgate tech finishes.
~3k Masters no... watch the replay carefully. there is no way to keep forcefielding the ramp in time to keep the roaches out. u don't have enough forcefields. and then as soon as the roaches get up ur zealot dies, and ur sentries will be next to die
Alright, I just tried this out in single player (with my patchy p too, I'm sure it'd be possible to do it a few seconds faster). You put down your first FF at 5:11. If you chrono out sentries, you have 2 sentries at 5:11 with the third building. By the time the third FF wears off, your first sentry has enough energy for a fourth FF. By the time that wears off, you easily have a fourth sentry out and your warpgate research finishes.
What am I not getting here?
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On February 02 2011 13:44 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to. i might get an immortal out as his roaches and speedlings enter my base and now i have an immortal to fight 1 or 2 roaches and 30 speedlings, doesn't sound like a very good plan
why are you ignoring other people here?
wall off with another pylon, or even better, another gate way and this is not even as fast as the 7 roach rush, which can be blocked for a long time with just sentries
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On February 02 2011 13:48 han_han wrote:
I think maybe you could have made a couple more zealots and try to stall for stalkers, but I'm not sure.
LOL. I wish I had words to describe my reaction to this post..
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Actually I'm surprised you don't see the "slow" warp as part of the problem. The earliest time you could've done +3units as warp was 5:45. That doesn't cut it against 10gate 4gates in pvp imo? Imo you should defend this the same way you defend 10gate 4gates, since 4-5 stalkers can hit @ 5:20 when well done. It's very similar rush with same effect, all you need to change is have some zealots in those first 5 units, where you usually have 5stalkers. Ofc 5stalkers with good probecontrol can do it too.
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On February 02 2011 13:46 confusedcrib wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:44 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p im not being high and mighty. im just good enough at the game to know what im talking about. there is no way i would get an immortal in time end of story. not that i would even want to. It's how I stop roach rushes, I have never lost to a roach rush with it. I realize the zerglings are an additional problem, I don't know how to deal with that. But for god's sake just try it, I'm good enough to realize an immortal is good against roaches and that it can pop almost in time, probably in time if optimized, just try it. Or keep complaining that no one can help you at Zerg is imba. I also get 2 warp gates up, with more efficient use of chrono boosting, perhaps you could warp in an additional 2 units in time. It's not just an immortal, it's 2 zealots, a stalker, 2 warp ins, and an immortal
To support OP: that indeed is not the way to do it. The push is _3_ roaches and rest lings, you don't want to use 200/100 on robo and 245/100 on very slow to make immortal to fight them, specially since lings will be surrounding your too small army making you actually unable to hit roaches with immos. Immos just don't fit 1base play all too well in pvz.
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For those who are curious or did not watch the replay, the roaches get into the toss base at 5:45, which I believe is the timing that the roaches show up at the opponent's base in a 7 roach rush. And in this case, they got in *after* being delayed by sentries' FF, so normally they could bust in even sooner.
BO is as follows.
10 ovie
10-13 drone
13 pool
12 gas
11-14 drone
15 queen
17 roach warren
16 a pair of lings to deny scouting
@ 100 gas ling speed
17 ovie
inject on queen pop and on every injection timing from there on out or the build will greatly suffer
3 roaches, pull drones from gas, and the rest lings.
Ling speed will finish at about the time roaches show up to your opponent's base. Make sure to have a spotter overlord to do what damage you can while you wait for any sentries to expend their energy from FF. Keep making lings, get them inside the base, and gg
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EPT
