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On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p
Yeah, uh, immortals won't really cut it. To get one out in time, you must cut from the already small enough gateway force and the lings will just tear through it once they get through.
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I suggest getting a practice partner who does this again and again to you. This way, you'll get to try out different techniques and find one that works best for you.
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I played against this build sometimes too I even had 2 stalker and no sentry still they just destroyed me.
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If you had dropped forge the second the warren went down, you would definitely have had up to two cannons before the roaches hit your front, though it would be close. (Cannon+forge=90 seconds, Warren+Roach=72 seconds, and the rush distance makes up for the rest) I'm not sure if there is any way for the Z to either transition out of the build or continue to put pressure on you after the cannons went up--as he would not be able to know that you had dropped a forge until the cannons were started. That's the only solution that I can think of--you seem to have tried everything else. The timings seem right, but I suppose that it needs testing.
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On February 02 2011 13:55 echuchee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p Yeah, uh, immortals won't really cut it. To get one out in time, you must cut from the already small enough gateway force and the lings will just tear through it once they get through.
then instead of immortals make it a void ray
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I used similar build during beta on still on steppes. Why this works? It strikes just before warp upgrade on break ramp with roaches.
In this game you had 1 non-chronoboosted gate vs 1 hatch with constant injects. thats pretty bad match up no matter what units you make. You chronoboosted your warp upgrade which unfortunately didnt help to stop this.
So if you scout the build incoming you may have to plan stopping it without finishing warp technology. Whether it be using forge cannons or chrono boosting units from multiple gates before warp is done. Zerg is on 14 drones without any tech so you can use whatever to hold this and be fine. At least 1 non-chronoboosted gate and rushed warp upgrade wasnt enough.
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On February 02 2011 13:48 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 13:35 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 13:29 echuchee wrote:
Well one way to stop it was to do exactly what you were doing(keep cranking sentries out). You could have had a 3rd sentry out if you cancelled the sentry that was no where near being finished. Then made ure gateway a warpgate and warped the sentry in. You should be able to permanently keep it out after warpgate tech finishes.
~3k Masters no... watch the replay carefully. there is no way to keep forcefielding the ramp in time to keep the roaches out. u don't have enough forcefields. and then as soon as the roaches get up ur zealot dies, and ur sentries will be next to die Alright, I just tried this out in single player (with my patchy p too, I'm sure it'd be possible to do it a few seconds faster). You put down your first FF at 5:11. If you chrono out sentries, you have 2 sentries at 5:11 with the third building. By the time the third FF wears off, your first sentry has enough energy for a fourth FF. By the time that wears off, you easily have a fourth sentry out and your warpgate research finishes. What am I not getting here?
it might be able to get enough sentries if u chrono them before u even know the attack is coming...
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Its just another stupidly powerful all in, ive had it happen to me when i 3 gate sentry expand and it pretty much hard counters it, you simply do not have the production to defend yourself at the time it usually comes.
If you rush to immortal then thats a huge resource sink and its countered by the majority of the zergs force, zerglings, the roaches are just their to take out the zealot wall in. Also you would have to blindly go for a fast robo, not good in pvz unless you plan on being cute with +1 zealot drop or something.
You could possibly get the forge up but i think if you dropped the forge purely off what you were scouting and not blindly putting it down it would be to late between forge + cannon build time.
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I too was hit with this build today @ 3k diamond on steppes. Completely crushed me doing a standard sentry heavy 3 gate expand. Roachling hit when i had 2 sentry 1 zeal and despite holding the push I had nearly nothing as I had to pull probes. He quickly ended it with speedlings afterward.
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Jesus. That's a scary timing. Thanks for posting--you just ensured that every good Z is about to start doing this. I'd need to practice against it, but I think the double gas is a mistake for sure. Unless you can get enough sentries to FF the ramp forever, the sentries are just going to wind up delaying for 30 sec and then being crappy combat units when he gets in. Think of it like a PvP 4 gate. 1 sentry to cut the army in half is great, but more than that and your army sucks when he does get up.
Robo is definitely not the answer. Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win.
I'd try to defend by staying on 1 gas and going mostly zealots with a sentry or 2 just to cut the army in half. If you cut probes to get a super fast second gate after your core, I think you could have a significant force of zealots at that timing. Then you let some lings in, forcefield the rest out, and try to clean up. You can afford to pull probes and lose some.
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Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you.
Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly.
What's the problem with this Travis?
On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote:
Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win.
That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat.
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Delay more, Build more units, Build better units, use probes. It's quick, but it's just an all in timing you're not used to. Treat it more like an all in.
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Also, I always drop my gw on 12 just to help with chz against Z
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Well, you scouted a 13 pool. Only things that come to mind for me are speedling expand, roach rush, 1 base muta, or 1 base nydus. Chrono sentry. Why wouldn't you? It completely blocks standard roach rushes, 1 base muta fails, you're not hurt by it if he speedling expands, and no one nydus's effectively. You see he does not take guys off gas -> eliminates speedling expand. You see he throws down a roach warren -> continue chrono'ing sentries. Then you can forcefield...
Lastly, wtf @ the zerglings running by your units...
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clearly you need to put up 3 cannons travis. haha. i only bothered to check replay cause you started post.
time to make the map pool better. bigger maps usually solve everything.
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I think the first problem was your investment into post-warpgate. You spent just about every single chronoboost on warpgate tech and as a result suffered from quite a shortage of units. Perhaps chronoboosting units out (as long as you have scouted it, your probe should be alive for long enough to stop the roach warren) would give you a stronger army to fight or a higher sentry count.
Since you invested into heavy warpgate count, it was in your best interest to close off the wall completely once you started to see you don't have enough sentries to hold it. Additional units after walloff is broken could have perhaps held it off.
You continue producing a sentry out of a gateway after your warpgate has been researched. Cancelling that sentry and ordering warpgate should have gave you a third sentry in time for a third forcefield.
So TL;DR: You invested in warpgate so you should have delayed at all cost until your warpgates are in effect.
2760 Masters (P)
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Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win.
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live.
Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable 
As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world.
Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax?
Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win.
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I think imareaver3 is right,
I like to think of this build in the same category as 6 pool. you have to treat this build as a cheesy all in and wall in might be ur best option, since zerg would not be able to transition out of it smoothly, ur 4 gate was 10sec away from kicking in. 1 zealot, 2 sentry + 4 warp unit, u literally lost the game by 10 secs.
Here is how i assume it'd go in a game without knowing which build zerg uses. once the early early roach warren is scouted, toss should go 4 gate, probe should be checking zerg mineral line, see if drone production is halted. if yes. wall off fully, (ofcoz chrono warpgate, get 1 sentry).
I'd assume once 4 gate kick in, hes production would not be even close.
i'm 1k master only though.
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I get with this today as well and went zealot and stalkers in the beginning and still lost...ugh have you tried just chronoboosting your gateway and opt for a sentry first then start the warp gate research?
your first sentry was about 13-17 energy away from having enough energy to cast another FF...this is definitely an all-in from Zerg but the overlord spotting on the top is painful...
I think 3 gate getting the sentries...once you have enough sentries to cast FF you should be fine
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I've been trying other 3gate builds where I go gateway-gas-gas-cyber to get more gas to start warp gate and the sentry at once
I need a Zerg practice partner to see if this build can hold it off
FlatLine.637
NA Server
I'm ~2800 Diamond Protoss
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On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:Firstly, this guy threw down the roach warren at 2:55 - so let's just say at 3:00 you would scout this, which is totally assumable because he has nothing to stop you from looking around his base for as long as you want. Even when his two lings pop, he has to still chase you. Secondly, a forge has a 45 second build time, and a cannon has a 40 second build time. With your forcefields, it was 5:40 until he was able to climb your ramp. That's 160 seconds to get your forge and cannons, and it takes less than a minute and a half to do so - two minutes if you want to do it really non chalantly. What's the problem with this Travis? Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:08 kcdc wrote:
Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat. I would have to second this, I would expect an ordinary roach rush when I scouted this though.
What I always do when I suspect a roach rush and it's close enough positions is just rally my first zealot into their base instead of trying to defend it. It'll force them to make lings and throw their carefully planned and timed build off, sometimes I'll throw an extra stalker in their too depending on how it goes. Not sure if it'll work here as the timing is pretty tight.
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EPT
