EPTI guess Forge is a tech-path you don't want to go down while pool is a forced tech path anyway.
[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ - Page 6
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TNine
United States46 Posts
I guess Forge is a tech-path you don't want to go down while pool is a forced tech path anyway. | ||
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udgnim
United States8024 Posts
3:23 1 pair of lings hatch 5:06 the first 3 Roaches arrive at the front of your base Forge takes 45 seconds to build. Photon Cannon takes 40 seconds to build. you can have a photon cannon up by 4:22+ don't really see why you think this Zerg cheese is impossible to stop. you just never scouted for it and pulled your drone out of his base when the spawning pool finished. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those Care to tell me what was wrong with my post? It sounds like you're just set on the idea that it's impossible and ignoring everything to the contrary. | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On February 02 2011 13:22 travis wrote: dude, ur so wrong, there is no way in hell the immortal would be out even close to in time very true, i'veface this before even on Steppes of War. except he did a 9 roach rush like literally roach warren at 9. basically what yo uhave to do is get 2 gate stalkers + wall off with anything you can even if its probes. | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:58 Orome wrote: Care to tell me what was wrong with my post? It sounds like you're just set on the idea that it's impossible and ignoring everything to the contrary. Its completely stoppable, the guy was bsing you. This build is extremely easy to stop if scouted, is completely all in, and there is no transitioning out of it that won't leave the toss player ahead even if he dropped cannons. | ||
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fraktoasters
United States617 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:19 morimacil wrote: Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable  As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax? Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win. Agreed. A lot of Zergs will instantly throw down a spine crawler when their expo finishes (or sooner and then walk it down to the expo). Not to mention the 5+ spine crawlers that go down when a 4 gate is spotted. It's silly that these guys are so appalled at getting static defenses to survive an all in. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote: Oh? Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
So the best response I can think of is a complete wall-off (gate/gate/core), not making a sentry but actually going stalker first since your sentries are useless in that scenario. And of course chrono your warpgate tech. I don't even think you need to cut probes (just go 1 gas) and this way you should be able to whittle down their army before he can take down your wall. Maybe make 1 sentry with your first round of warp-ins to protect your wall if it is in danger of going down. The timing is probably very tight on Steppes though. If anybody wants to practice this against me PM me. I think the trick w/ the build is that it throws a pool down at 12, so it's not like you can react with an earlier gate. That combined with your warpgate tech, if constantly chrono'ed, finishes at ~5:45, so the build has time to do some serious damage before warpgate is done. So it very well could be that you have to focus on getting earlier gates and chrono'ing out units instead of trying to rush to warpgate tech. edit: Looking at the timings a bit more closely I think rushing warpgate tech isn't viable vs this. The optimal way seems to cut probes at 18 and don't make a zealot to get down 2 gates ASAP, which should be up with your core around 4:10 or so. You can them chrono out 3 stalkers, with 3 more on the way when it hits your front door. That combined with walling in with gate/gate/core should hold this. The optimal build to counter this I think is probably the fast double stalker build, but you would have to do it blind since he tosses his roach warren down right around the time you would toss your core down. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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Omnipresent
United States871 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:58 Orome wrote: Care to tell me what was wrong with my post? It sounds like you're just set on the idea that it's impossible and ignoring everything to the contrary. My main contention is that it's irrational to chrono units instead of research, in preparation for a rush which may or may not ever come. Obviously if you 100% know a rush is coming from the start of the game, you can devote yourself to beating it. But that's not really a reasonable way to think of strategies. I still think this is a beatable rush, even from the point where he knew some rush was coming (about 4:40). See my post on page 5 for details. | ||
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ch33psh33p
7650 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote: my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? Uhh the timing of hte build revolves around not getting lings so you can completely scout the warren. You didn't even try. Besides, no expansion, he went early pool early gas, low drone count, all of this in conjuction should alert you of an ALL IN, and therefore you should prepare to defend as such. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:02 fraktoasters wrote: Agreed. A lot of Zergs will instantly throw down a spine crawler when their expo finishes (or sooner and then walk it down to the expo). Not to mention the 5+ spine crawlers that go down when a 4 gate is spotted. It's silly that these guys are so appalled at getting static defenses to survive an all in. it's completely different. does a 1base zerg who goes for fast units EVER need to put down static defense? no, no they don't. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote: my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? That's a good argument, except I didn't go in and scout it at the perfect time, it was already half-way finished. Second, how will I lose my probe if he's making late lings and only two of them? I think it's pretty common to keep scouting their base with your probe if they're going pool first with gas - in fact, you're supposed to check to see when they take their drones off of gas. You won't put down a forge if you don't scout the warren, but once again, why would you not scout it? Even if you scout last you'll get there with plenty of time to scout it. I started a zealot because his pool was finished and I 'didn't know' if he was making quick lings. I suppose it wasn't necessary, but ultimately it wasn't relevant to what I did. | ||
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KovuTalli
United Kingdom325 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:45 travis wrote: im sorry but a lot of u are completely clueless, like absolutely clueless. u play this guy and u would get absolutely raped to pieces yet u say how easy this is to stop, lol did u even read the chat? the guy talking about how much he wins? im sure he is serious and u know what, he's playing players better than u guys who are saying how easy this is to stop in every single one of those Star2 is far more accessible than Star1/BW and because of this anyone who can win a bronze league game thinks they know better than you and knows how to counter every single build in the game. Its what I've started to come to expect from the Star2 forum sections. Anyway, staying on topic: Not sure what else I could say that hasnt already been said. Either drop a forge and 2 cannon when you see roach warren or one of the other builds already mentioned. Maybe cut a few probes and save chrono for more units. Going to have to show this build to my Zerg friend who whine about 4gate. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:07 ch33psh33p wrote: Uhh the timing of hte build revolves around not getting lings so you can completely scout the warren. You didn't even try. Besides, no expansion, he went early pool early gas, low drone count, all of this in conjuction should alert you of an ALL IN, and therefore you should prepare to defend as such. look, i just told u why i didn't run my probe into his base. as for not having an expansion, the timing of a normal expansion after 6lings with speed is late enough that i wouldn't be able to get a forge in time. it's absolutely hilarious for me to get a forge because i don't see an expansion RIGHT AWAY and then i build 2 cannons and all he's made is 6-8 speedlings and drones | ||
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perptuity
8 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:50 Salv wrote: Oh? Care to respond to this? SuperiorWolf and I did the exact same build, on the same map, same positions - easily defended. It sounds more like you're looking for everyone to agree it's impossible and there's nothing you could have done, and not that you're looking for an actual solution to your problem. Cybercore comes before 5 minutes; check my replay. All of what you just said is pointless because you'll be on one base fully saturated with tech and multiple gateways. Who cares if he expands? Who cares if he drones up? He'll have less drones and less tech than he would have if he simply made a 14 hatchery and droned, which is completely standard PvZ - either way you wind up ahead. Saw ur replay, Firstly, I m sorry. I think ur right, if u see a early roach warren, do forge then cyber core....it seems to be a very good way to handle that build, since this way, ur cyber is only delayed by 150 mineral( but normally cyber goes down soon as gate is done, would you then cancel or have a little delayed forge, would cannon be up in time) any way, that build seems to be good, and does not stand in the way of toss's progress as much as i thought it would. If zerg does not attack after seeing cannons) and opt for more eco build, based on the warpgate timming + robo timming I have to admit, toss would not be behind. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:07 Salv wrote: That's a good argument, except I didn't go in and scout it at the perfect time, it was already half-way finished. Second, how will I lose my probe if he's making late lings and only two of them? I think it's pretty common to keep scouting their base with your probe if they're going pool first with gas - in fact, you're supposed to check to see when they take their drones off of gas. You won't put down a forge if you don't scout the warren, but once again, why would you not scout it? Even if you scout last you'll get there with plenty of time to scout it. I started a zealot because his pool was finished and I 'didn't know' if he was making quick lings. I suppose it wasn't necessary, but ultimately it wasn't relevant to what I did. it's normal to go sacrifice ur probe in hopes of catching something like drones coming off gas or a longshot roach warren? cuz it's not what I see on streams. it seems like a kind of big deal to lose ur probe for nothing(which is what will happen almost every time) | ||
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Nis
Singapore45 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:03 travis wrote: my response is that u go in and scout the roach warren with perfect timing because u know exactly what is comign. 9 times out of 10 vs zerg if u do that ur just going to lose ur probe. if ur suggesting i should just sac my probe 9 times out of 10 to try to see a roach warren then well maybe that is the answer, but it doesn't sound very reasonable to me. If u don't scout the roach warren right away then how are u going to know to put down a forge? also whats with building a zealot and not starting a core? I think the game is evolving and there is no choice but to sac the probe to ensure this build is not happening. Once mainstream zerg catch up onto this that will probably be a standard for toss to scout. But I do have an issue with wolf saying this attack is an all in. It really isnt. Those units at the bottom actually delays the toss expo by so long that its not funny. An early forge + 2-3 cannons = super delayed additional gates. You have no way of moving down til additional gates kick in. Meanwhile, the zerg stops at 14 drones for the 3 roach + 10 lings timing attack. His overlord by your ramp sees all. If he sees cannons starting to warp, he stops reinforcements, uses next round of inject for drones, then expos and pull drones off gas. If his OL spots no cannons, he just continue to reinforce with lings and autowin right there | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:06 Omnipresent wrote: My main contention is that it's irrational to chrono units instead of research, in preparation for a rush which may or may not ever come. Obviously if you 100% know a rush is coming from the start of the game, you can devote yourself to beating it. But that's not really a reasonable way to think of strategies. I still think this is a beatable rush, even from the point where he knew some rush was coming (about 4:40). See my post on page 5 for details. You know it's coming because the Zerg can't stop you from scouting it. Just like in ZvZ you're supposed to stick around with your ol for a few extra seconds after pool finishes to check if he's throwing down a fast baneling nest/roach warren, you're supposed to stick around in Z's base with the probe if you see a pool/gas build. You need to know whether he's pulling drones off gas or doing something funky. Check the replay, Travis could easily have scouted the roach warren. It didn't matter much in this case because he thought it was coming anyway, but there's really no way for Z to stop the scout unless he delays his roach warren. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:12 Orome wrote: Check the replay, Travis could easily have scouted the roach warren. It didn't matter much in this case because he thought it was coming anyway, but there's really no way for Z to stop the scout unless he delays his roach warren. ur right about zerg not being able to stop u from scouting it, but i actually didn't know what it was coming until i saw he never took an expansion (which i think in itself is very useful information and i will never find out if he actually just made some lings and kills my scouting probe and then contains me at my ramp) | ||
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