EPT[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ - Page 8
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stink123
United States241 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:23 travis wrote: so i suppose i should keep the probe in the base a little longer(until the very last second). i do like to try to delay an expansion though, but i'll admit i don't even know the timings on it. and lings can catch probes just fine, it just takes a long time to get them down so if u have a head start yes u will probably get away. im sure u know this though. so basically in short the conclusion is that to stop this build it's important to keep scouting zerg main until very last second? You can't delay the expansion much with your probe if he's speedling expanding anyway. He's going to put down his hatch at 20 usually, after his first lings are already out. I mean I guess you can pylon block and delay it for a few seconds, but he's going to make the lings anyway and they'll get that pylon down pretty fast. | ||
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TNine
United States46 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:24 Atlare wrote: I really hate to sound like village troll here but I can't help being cynical anymore but this is the perfect example of how downhill this forum has gotten over the last few months. 16k poster with creditability has a genuine rep of a fucked up build AND MENTIONS that it can be beaten with cannons but he can't figure out if he can with gateways. So then every silver/gold league player who saw the thread's first few sentances instantly replies without watching rep saying 'hey i never lose to this rush i chrono my sentries' or 'Hey u kno u can just build cannons to win rite'.... Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times... Cmon guys. So when a 16k poster posts a strategy he thinks is unbeatable and gets responses on how to fix it, it's the forum going downhill, but if someone else does it it's stupid QQ? Teamliquid, from what i've seen, is about finding way to beat a strategy. Can't blame its members for trying to do that. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On February 02 2011 14:21 .kv wrote: I get with this today as well and went zealot and stalkers in the beginning and still lost...ugh have you tried just chronoboosting your gateway and opt for a sentry first then start the warp gate research? your first sentry was about 13-17 energy away from having enough energy to cast another FF...this is definitely an all-in from Zerg but the overlord spotting on the top is painful... I think 3 gate getting the sentries...once you have enough sentries to cast FF you should be fine --------------- I've been trying other 3gate builds where I go gateway-gas-gas-cyber to get more gas to start warp gate and the sentry at once I need a Zerg practice partner to see if this build can hold it off FlatLine.637 NA Server I'm ~2800 Diamond Protoss Travis can I hear your thoughts and opinions on my theorycraft on how to deal with this one base attack...and yea I agree...I don't think protoss should heavily rely on a probe to not die when it goes back in and to scout a roach warren...in fact Protoss wants to keep that probe alive as much as possible to scout when he gets his expo and such | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:28 Orome wrote: You can't delay the expansion much with your probe if he's speedling expanding anyway. He's going to put down his hatch at 20 usually, after his first lings are already out. I mean I guess you can pylon block and delay it for a few seconds, but he's going to make the lings anyway and they'll get that pylon down pretty fast. yeah that's generally exactly what i do. if he tries to go hat before speedlings then my probe is there, if it's speedlings first then i place a pylon and cancel at the last second | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:23 travis wrote: so i suppose i should keep the probe in the base a little longer(until the very last second). i do like to try to delay an expansion though, but i'll admit i don't even know the timings on it. and lings can catch probes just fine, it just takes a long time to get them down so if u have a head start yes u will probably get away. im sure u know this though. so basically in short the conclusion is that to stop this build it's important to keep scouting zerg main until very last second? Delaying the expansion is really helpful, so I understand that you want to make sure you stop it, but if you're controlling your probe as you go up the ramp, you can quickly double back if he's sending drones. The only way this could hurt you is if the Zerg anticipated this and put a drone near the natural, and then as you up the ramp they make the hatchery. I'm fairly sure InControl, if he's scouting the last position and knows it to be the Zerg, will place a pylon at the natural and then head inside to scout. Worst case scenario, you'll have to cancel, lose 25 minerals, and you'll get your scouting information - not a big loss. You're right, lings can catch probes, what I mean is, if you head a probe home when the lings pop, the probe will make it back safely. I would say in conclusion, yes, this build illustrates why you have to scout the Zerg main at least once, and then if they have a gas, you have to scout until the last possible second just in case they are doing something tricky, like this build. I don't think that's an unreasonable request for a high level Protoss player. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
I see alot ppl suggesting forge into cannon, I think that's a terrible idea, forge into cannon on one base against zerg is suicide, zerg can easily double or even triple expand if ur cybercore is THAT delayed. And toss would be in deep trouble. For anyone thinking that zerg can have 9 workers less than toss, and comfortably sit back, triple expand (only 11 drones left then, less than half of the toss  ), and somehow manage to catch up in drones, and make enough units to hold off the toss 4gate, nope, thats not going to happen. and btw, i said in my original post it was stoppable with cannons. so yeah if u blindly run ur probe in the second their pool comes in, i guess looking only for this exact build (thats the ONLY thing u could possibly be looking for and before this happened i didn't even know about this build), then yeah u can probably scout it. and then u can immediately put down a forge and stop it. but then every other time u just lose ur probe to lings because u ran it into their base. The way you say this is kinda strange. You "blindly run your probe in"? Well yeah, you run a worker into the opponent's base to check on what he is doing. Its called scouting. Looking for this build. Yes, when you scout, you usually check for specific things. And knowing the cheese helps beat it. And I dont see the problem with losing your probe. If you see him early expand, do something normal, then you scout as normal. If you see him put down an earlier pool, and then not expand when he normally would, you keep the probe around in his base, that way you can either confirm the roach warren, baneling nest, or whatever, or at least you can delay his roach warren by 40 seconds until the lings hatch and he kills your drone. And sure, in that scenario, when you scout an early pool, early gas, no expo, and low amounts of workers, you are forced to sacrifice your probe. Its not very different from sacrificing an overlord for scouting information, appart from the fact that it costs only half as much. And its still well worth it, since it allows you to win the game. All you are saying really is "I know how to stop this build, but I dont want to have to sacrifice my scouting worker when I see something strange, and then have to adapt to win" | ||
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Atlare
Australia893 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote: I think if you read more than the first page on the thread you would find some compelling arguements as to why he should be doing that. I was 2nd in, and also constantly reading this. There is no legitimate gaurantee you can keep your probe in his base for that long OR you could miss the timing if he delays it to screw with you. There are way too many factors in the scouting pattern to compensate, travis and other have being saying that. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:29 TNine wrote: So when a 16k poster posts a strategy he thinks is unbeatable and gets responses on how to fix it, it's the forum going downhill, but if someone else does it it's stupid QQ? Teamliquid, from what i've seen, is about finding way to beat a strategy. Can't blame its members for trying to do that. there's a question mark in the title for a reason. On February 02 2011 15:29 evanthebouncy! wrote: Travis has not responded to my post, do I win? :p I didn't think it would matter if I cut probes unless I was cutting them much earlier to get a 2nd gate down at a ridiculously early time. | ||
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Yeld
Austria106 Posts
He executed his build pretty much flawlessly, while you had a lot of unneccessary breaks in your probe production. He went for maximum early aggression while you went for maximum tech/economy (2 assimilators, only 1 Gate, no forge). You did not adjust your strategy based on what you scouted. You spent all chronoboost on the warpgate upgrade and even opted to not chrono your units out when his units where literally at your ramp. You were floating almost 300 minerals and a crapton of gas when his units arrived, while he kept his money very low and constantly reinforced. Why not try the "get 3 cannons when you spot his early roach warren" idea? If it still doesn't work out, you can send a new replay. | ||
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Xadar
497 Posts
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eth3n
718 Posts
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Atlare
Australia893 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:30 morimacil wrote: For anyone thinking that zerg can have 9 workers less than toss, and comfortably sit back, triple expand (only 11 drones left then, less than half of the toss ), and somehow manage to catch up in drones, and make enough units to hold off the toss 4gate, nope, thats not going to happen. The way you say this is kinda strange. You "blindly run your probe in"? Well yeah, you run a worker into the opponent's base to check on what he is doing. Its called scouting. Looking for this build. Yes, when you scout, you usually check for specific things. And knowing the cheese helps beat it. And I dont see the problem with losing your probe. If you see him early expand, do something normal, then you scout as normal. If you see him put down an earlier pool, and then not expand when he normally would, you keep the probe around in his base, that way you can either confirm the roach warren, baneling nest, or whatever, or at least you can delay his roach warren by 40 seconds until the lings hatch and he kills your drone. And sure, in that scenario, when you scout an early pool, early gas, no expo, and low amounts of workers, you are forced to sacrifice your probe. Its not very different from sacrificing an overlord for scouting information, appart from the fact that it costs only half as much. And its still well worth it, since it allows you to win the game. All you are saying really is "I know how to stop this build, but I dont want to have to sacrifice my scouting worker when I see something strange, and then have to adapt to win" the entire point is that the only thing i would be seeing is this exact timing of roach warren or possibly him taking drones off gas (which may or may not mean something). i suppose it's still worth it, though. | ||
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TNine
United States46 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:31 travis wrote: there's a question mark in the title for a reason. I was really talking to Altare more than you. IE the forum isn't going downhill because people disagree with you. So the way to counter this seems somewhat sound. Regardless, it will be tested soon cause i can see this push becoming really popular really quickly. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote: Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of your responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestions retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:29 travis wrote: yeah that's generally exactly what i do. if he tries to go hat before speedlings then my probe is there, if it's speedlings first then i place a pylon and cancel at the last second Yeah I guess that does help a bit, but I feel like the scouting information's more critical. edit: and on close positions you can delay the speedling expansions by chronoing out a zealot. Really annoying, especially when Z's trying to get away with only making 2 lings, because you have to wait for the larvae. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:31 Atlare wrote: I was 2nd in, and also constantly reading this. There is no legitimate gaurantee you can keep your probe in his base for that long OR you could miss the timing if he delays it to screw with you. There are way too many factors in the scouting pattern to compensate, travis and other have being saying that. What? There's absolutely a guarantee you could scout this if you went in the Zerg base - he has to place the warren the second the pool is finished otherwise he sacrifices power in the build. Also, this idea that you're going to be letting your probe die is ridiculous. If you send in a probe and there's no gas and only a pool, then you don't need to stay and keep looking around. You would only stay if they are mining gas, and you want to see what they do with it, quick lair, quick speed, baneling, roach? You want to know these things - if you think it's smarter to be one probe up and lose the chance to not scout these things you're not a good Protoss player. | ||
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Dice.
United States78 Posts
Please don't act like this is unbeatable, it's easily stopped. | ||
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