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On February 02 2011 15:44 Salv wrote:
True, if you could get away without cannons than it would be better, but from watching Travis' game, I dont see how that would be possible. If you can post a replay then we can see for sure. I'm entirely open to being convinced that gateways and chronoboosts are the way to go if it's shown to work. Also, it's important to remember that with an overlord, the roaches will be harassing your wall, so simply forcefielding will just keep them from flat-out killing out, and not from doing damage.
I'll see if I can find a decent Z to try this on me. True, I'm not sure how it would work out with roaches harassing your wall because I don't play P and never allin as Z myself. I guess cannons is the safe solution, but I have a feeling gateways should be enough.
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On February 02 2011 15:07 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:02 fraktoasters wrote:On February 02 2011 14:19 morimacil wrote:Cannons would work to defend it, but really, if Z going 13 pool into roach warren on 1 base means you have to sink 600 minerals into static defense, the MU is unwinnable. They could just skip the units, double expand and they win. hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
like if zerg was 1basing and had to get spine crawlers, it's the only way to live. Somehow you guys seem to think that if you have to account for a possible all-in from zerg, it suddenly makes the matchup unwinnable  As the roach warren went down, it was 14 drones vs 19 probes. If you have to cut a few probes, and invest a bit in defense to defend the all-in, its really not the end of the world. Zerg has to deal with this every match. Do you think its for fun that we invest in early ling speed, patrol a drone at the bottom of our ramp, or throw down a spine crawler as soon as we see any sign of a possible 2rax? Seems like you are just used to the fact that zerg cant touch you. If it helps, think of it as a terran or toss cheese. Yes, you need to scout, and make an investment to hold it off, but you are ahead, if you can hold the cheese, you win. Agreed. A lot of Zergs will instantly throw down a spine crawler when their expo finishes (or sooner and then walk it down to the expo). Not to mention the 5+ spine crawlers that go down when a 4 gate is spotted. It's silly that these guys are so appalled at getting static defenses to survive an all in. it's completely different. does a 1base zerg who goes for fast units EVER need to put down static defense? no, no they don't.
Because they're about to attack and if it fails they lose the game. One base zerg is completely different from one base protoss or terran. They won't need the static defense, because like this build, they will have a bunch of early units and then after that they are SOL. I think you are over reacting to this, you aren't accepting solutions, you are simply upset that there is something early you have to scout for, or lose the game. You're looking for a way to stop it blindly. Yes he is better than me, yes he wins tons of games. But it's because this is a new cheese people do not know how to react to, it isn't THAT powerful, if you know it's coming, because it's so all in.
You can get a forge ahead of time when you scout the early warren, then you can leave your probe somewhere outside his base. Saccing one probe is nothing compared to zerg going for a pool this early. Then when you spot the roaches inc, you can make a complele pylon wall and then put cannons behind it, this will buy you enough time. This way if you are worried that he will fake it and expand, you can use your early forge to FE yourself after you are sure the roaches are not inc.
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I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong?
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On February 02 2011 15:47 Bair wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren. Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production.
This is what I'd really be interested in seeing...
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On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote:
I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong?
You move the probe to the natural to block/delay the expansion that should be coming. If you leave your probe in the base he can take his natural and ignore this all in.
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On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote:
I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong?
Nothing, and this is what a lot of Protoss are saying. Travis thinks this isn't a good idea because he couldn't block the natural hatchery if the Zerg was going for hat first (not true), and because there's the potential for the probe to die (true).
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On February 02 2011 15:50 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:47 Bair wrote:On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:
[quote]
GFY
9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren. Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production. This is what I'd really be interested in seeing...
Zerg is too behind, protoss would be able to 4 gate and win while he is trying to catchup on drones. He doesn't just need to catch up on drones, he needs to drone AND expo to catch up, much further behind than spending three canons.
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On February 02 2011 15:50 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:47 Bair wrote:On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:
[quote]
GFY
9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren. Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production. This is what I'd really be interested in seeing...
I have a vague feeling Z's still going to end up behind, but that would definitely be the next thing to test.
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On February 02 2011 15:37 Piledriver wrote:
Those of you saying "23 probes vs 14 drones", it's never so easy versus zerg because of queen mechanic. He will most probably exceed your probe count in the next two inject cycles. If anything, its a marginal disadvantage, which is offset by the fact that he forced you to get a forge + 2 cannons (450 minerals = 9 drones), and delayed your tech/expand significantly. Also more cannons = lower unit count while pressuring.
If workers are made for the next 2 inject cycles, the zerg will quite simply die to any toss counter attack. In the 80 seconds it takes to do 2 rounds of injects, toss can easily throw down another 3 or so gateways, bringing him up to 5, let warpgate tech finish, and be attacking the front.
If zerg wants to do 2 rounds of drones, and 1 of roaches for example, thats 40 seconds for the first one, 40 seconds again, another 40 seconds, so 120 seconds until the larva pops, and then another 30 seconds until the roaches are actually made, thats 150 seconds. 2 minutes and a half. More than enough time for the toss to make 3 gateways and cross the map.
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On February 02 2011 15:52 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote:
I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong? Nothing, and this is what a lot of Protoss are saying. Travis thinks this isn't a good idea because he couldn't block the natural hatchery if the Zerg was going for hat first (not true), and because there's the potential for the probe to die (true).
eh no, firstly i said that it's probably what I need to do. secondly, blocking the hat is for hat after pool.. not hat first. i mean obviously i go in his main and scout for a pool and gas
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On February 02 2011 14:56 Nis wrote:
Low masters SEA here
The build from the roach looks really formidable, i think it would be autowin against standard gate core opener from toss who tries to go 3 gate to stop it.
But 1 thing i notice from that build is that, you can completely scout it, because his roach warren timing comes up before lings, and first and foremost, the probe scout now needs to hang around the zerg base a bit longer to confirm that he is going for this build
Secondly, I tested it out, while doing the standard gate core opener, once you scout it, cut probes (still ahead a bit on worker count) and drop a forge asap then cannons, while chronoing the single gateway. The cannons should just start warping in as the units reach your base. 1 Forcefield, then 1 pylon block should buy enough time for 2-3 cannons to warp in to break the push. On close rush though this might be slightly more brutal, but yep, this build have to be absolutely scouted and a forge right after cybercore asap is needed to stop it
The zerg however is in no way crippled if he pulls back once the cannons warp in though, he can just expo, the game proceeds as normal. This looks brutally powerful. His lings roach can deny you from expoing for a pretty damn long time until your warp tech + 2 additional gates kick in for 2 cycles, while he can expo right away after he sees your cannons finish warping in. Man this build, really impressive
edit for grammer
I like your post .. Esesh the part where I can transition and play normally if I decide to pull out... Thank you much.
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Seems like a cheesy all-in build, much like many Terran and Protoss builds, which can be stopped by scouting and reacting to it. Zerg having on or two all-ins which may actually work if not scouted does not break the match up.
Being appalled at the idea of potentially sacrificing 50 minerals for scouting is bizarre, you do understand the Zerg scouting will cost 8 supply, 1 larva at 100 minerals?
People should be less concerned with whether or not they are being insulted, and more concerned with whether or not it's the truth.
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Here are some quick replays of this build. It's pretty nasty, and I think it instawins if they don't scout the roach warren, which is actually quite common if you are able to distract their probe with a fake expo drone.
I pull drones off gas after getting metabolic boost + 75, and when the push hits at ~34 supply you can actually expand.
I threw one in against Terran for good measure.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-185767.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-185770.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-185771.jpg)
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Travis in the replay there are very few roaches compared to a pure roach rush, the DPS of roaches is so small that you would probably be able to pump zealots non stop to handle all the lings get a fast forge for +1 attack and a cannon to hold back roaches. the mass zealots can hold back lings as the roaches try to kill them. since zerg units come in waves it seems you'd be able to stem the first wave or two (except the roaches) and then go for charge or stalkers or sentry while staying alive. i really think that just alot of zealots and 1 well placed cannon can defend your ramp while you are working on either a gimmick shenanigan or a solid gateway army. Gimmicks would be DTs while holding off the rush with zealots your gas is free, void ray (similar). but the strong option would be zeal sentry with charge or blink stalkers. I think it'd be a little tense but with some good micro on your ramp vs the lings you could hold out.
EDIT: also pure zealot does an excellent job of pressurign a zerg FE if they DO do that, and so you'd be able to at least put some pressure on Z by playing it safe.
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On February 02 2011 15:54 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:52 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:49 Papvin wrote:
I've tried to think this through again and again, but I reach the same conclusion. You can easily scout the roach warren. Tell me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the following be quite bulletproof:
Your probe sees pool in production. Place your probe close to hatchery, in sightrange of pool. When pool finishes, if he makes something with his 2+ of his larvae, gtfo of there, since he'll now have delayed his roach warren with 100 mins, which I would assume would crumble the rush. If he builds nothing or from one larva after pool, feel free to scout his base, since 2 zerglings will not kill your probe if you retreat right after you've scouted all of his creep.
What am I doing wrong? Nothing, and this is what a lot of Protoss are saying. Travis thinks this isn't a good idea because he couldn't block the natural hatchery if the Zerg was going for hat first (not true), and because there's the potential for the probe to die (true). eh no, firstly i said that it's probably what I need to do. secondly, blocking the hat is for hat after pool.. not hat first. i mean obviously i go in his main and scout for a pool and gas
So can we say this build has been debunked? We know of at least one safe way to deal with it?
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2400 master so not really your level, but I do play random and p is my best race.
Great Wall of HongUn at your ramp is probably the answer. This build is super all-in for the zerg. If you stop it, even with significant losses, you win. I would start building shit to block my ramp while chrono boosting stalkers out behind the wall to pick away at the lings. If you can stall long enough to get a voidray out you win.
Still, that is very powerful and his timing is precise. His BO is super tight and he even accounts for the fact that the lings can catch up to the first 3 roaches even if built after.
I could not stop that BO that well executed, but maybe you can.
Edit: After reading more of the thread, I think that blocking with buildings (and more and more buildings) that are fat but cheap (like gates) while rushing out a voidray is probably better than going for a forge and cannons. Your cannons cannot pick themselves up and attack him. As has been stated before, if the zerg is smart and pulls back, he can expo right away and be on par (if not ahead) of you econ wise... If you get a single voidray out you win.
The question is... can you stall that long? Depends on the map, I suppose, but with good FF placement it should be possible.
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On February 02 2011 15:45 Dali. wrote:
It warms my heart to see Protoss struggling to beat an all in from zerg. Fact of the matter is, a zerg all in is very transparent (no way to hide it) and has no real fall back. And this was truly one with no fallback. I'm not going to explain ways of defending this since you Protoss know the answer. I will politely welcome you to hell.
I AGREE DALI!!! hahah burn toss lol jokes .. Welcome to our 4gate!!
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On February 02 2011 15:52 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:50 MajorityofOne wrote:On February 02 2011 15:47 Bair wrote:On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
[quote]
You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren. Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production. This is what I'd really be interested in seeing... I have a vague feeling Z's still going to end up behind, but that would definitely be the next thing to test.
Dopplewalk 362. Add me and we can give it a try. Currently running the build through the optimizer. Once it spits out a few possibilities I will be up for some testing.
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your conversation at the end of the replay annoyed me.
zergs complain because toss has many builds that require specific responses. You just scouted and made a sentry expecting 15 seconds to save the day. Maybe if you needed 15 seconds to get out something that could kill him, sure, but you just got out another sentry to waste everyones time for ANOTHER 15 seconds. A zerg one base all in that works, it's so unlikely that people can't stomach the thought of preparing in a suboptimal way to hold it off. (welcome to the life of a zerg)
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EPT
