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On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds.
He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons.
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Those of you saying "23 probes vs 14 drones", it's never so easy versus zerg because of queen mechanic. He will most probably exceed your probe count in the next two inject cycles. If anything, its a marginal disadvantage, which is offset by the fact that he forced you to get a forge + 2 cannons (450 minerals = 9 drones), and delayed your tech/expand significantly. Also more cannons = lower unit count while pressuring.
Counter intuitive as it may sound, I think a forge FE would be the best counter to this build. As a toss who goes fast nexus in always every game versus zerg (on all maps except steppes of war and DQ), I have faced my fair share of all-ins, and mostly defend them decently. I'm a 2700 Diamond toss with about 55% win ratio in all MU, but around 70% vs zerg, so take my low level experience for whatever it is worth.
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will this work on shakuras?
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On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons.
Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis.
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On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis.
So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here..
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On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis.
I still wonder about this. From trying out the timings myself, I felt like chronoing out sentries was enough and obviously if you can get away with not making cannons, that's going to be even better.
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On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here..
He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren.
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I always keep my scout probe around his natural, partially to delay any expo and partially to know if he's expo'ing at all. If nothing is down by 3:45, some stupid one base play is likely coming, and I forge and sack my scout probe in his base to see what might be coming. IOW, this is just a variation of a RR and is dealt with the same way you deal with any cheese: intel.
You can flame me now too 
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I played against this rush at least a dozen times in beta and the only way I was able to hold it was to get a forge when I scouted it and pump sentries. Even then it's very possible you will lose if you fuck up your micro or have poor building placement (single pylon powering your gate/cyber exposed to roach fire). I don't really see why people are being so defensive/hostile when a good amount of posts in this thread have been constructive.
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On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP.
You may not have directly insulted people, but your tone, intended or not, has been condescending, holier than thou, and often rude. Appeal to authority, for example, is my least favorite logical fallacy. A lot of the advice given here has been total crap, but a lot of it is reasonable. You don't seem like you've been approaching by this seeking help, just catharsis. That is probably why you got called out.
A lot of people gave you ways to adjust for this strategy with scouting, while adding very little risk. I think it was definitely beatable from the point where you saw his hatch missing (i.e. with no changes to your scouting pattern), and possibly from the point where you saw his forces at you ramp.
+ Show Spoiler +On February 02 2011 14:43 Omnipresent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 14:17 Lamabot wrote:
Since you invested into heavy warpgate count, it was in your best interest to close off the wall completely once you started to see you don't have enough sentries to hold it. Additional units after walloff is broken could have perhaps held it off.
This is essentially what I see as well. This is sort of a "Great wall of Hong Un" situation without the voidray, for anyone who saw that. You scouted a missing hatch a 4:40, which is later than what you would see out of a regular speed first expand. This is when you should have more or less known some rush was coming. At that point, you had a worker lead 22:14, 1 gateway up and 1 gateway warping in. by the time the rush hit and your delay tactics (sentries) gave way, it was 5:40. you had warpgates finished, 455 minerals banked, and a worker lead of 24:14. (I'd have to go back and check, but I think you also dropped an extra gateway in the middle of your base. It could have been used on the wall.) I think the best, and probably only solution, is to wall off with additional gateways. You could have dropped 3 more by the time your sentries ran out of FFs, though it'd be best to wall off as needed instead of in advance. If you can Keep them up while also building a small army, you can easily defend the push and counter for the win. You had almost twice his economy, and could have easily sacrificed the extra minerals for more gateways. It takes lings + 3 roaches a very long time to kill gateways, even longer if you keep making sentries. The only problem I see with this defense is that you're likely to lose your core before you can repel the push, and you'll need ranged units to hold it. Even then, it's not really too much trouble to build an extra core instead of a gateway to reinforce the wall. Alternatively you could finish the wall with a forge and reinforce with cannons (stop mining gas). This is a weaker choice, as you were already mostly saturated on minerals, and cannons are worthless after you defend. Hold the push at any cost, and you've probably secured a win. If you absolutely have to pull your probes, do it sooner so you can plug the hole and not get surrounded. I'm not saying I would have held the push, but it looks doable to me. On a side note, sentries outrange roaches.
I'm sure you'd be more open to some of the ideas talked about here (and more likely to come up with your own) if you were less frustrated about a recent loss.
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On February 02 2011 13:38 travis wrote:
hell, isn't it ridiculous to have to forge in this spot at all? "oh the only way to hold off this rush is to get cannons"
Isn't this every toss' suggestion to holding a 4-gate as z?
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On February 02 2011 15:31 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:28 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:24 Atlare wrote:
Oh and don't even get me started on the scouting bullshit why should he be scouting for one rare build a specific time to lose the probe 9 out of 10 times...
Cmon guys. I think if you read more than the first page on the thread you would find some compelling arguements as to why he should be doing that. I was 2nd in, and also constantly reading this. There is no legitimate gaurantee you can keep your probe in his base for that long OR you could miss the timing if he delays it to screw with you. There are way too many factors in the scouting pattern to compensate, travis and other have being saying that.
If he's forced to delay, and even make lings before his warren, that's probably going to screw up the all-in timing because the roaches are delayed, giving you more time for sentries to gain energy and get warped in and thus more forcefields, more time with warp-gate tech...I can't really see how it would work. And of course there's no guarantee you can keep the probe long enough, but you should be able to keep it running about before lings pop out, no?
I don't see why this thread has to become about travis' quality as a poster or the state of TL in general. I'll freely own I'm new to the board and that I'm probably not as good a player as a ton of people on here. But he posted here asking for help, and people are giving their best suggestions; some of them are good, some of them are freaking terrible, and that's just sort of how the internet rolls. Maybe back in the day this place used to be full of nothing but startling insight and intellectual rigour, an enclave of societies elite joined by the common goal of maintaining a noob-free forum....in which case I'm sorry for your loss O.O
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On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren.
You don't even need to see the warren. You forge as a response if zerg doesn't take expo by 4:00, because he is doing a one base play (RR or bling).
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On February 02 2011 15:35 Dice. wrote:
Should have chrono'd out units instead of the warp gate upgrade. Also should've been walled off. If not this then should've dropped forge with cannons.
Please don't act like this is unbeatable, it's easily stopped.
I just watched the reps, didn't read the rest of the thread because I assume its mostly whine.
Very hard as Protoss to stop this kind of aggression from Zerg, mainly because you are so vulnerable early. That rush came very fast. It looked very hard to see it coming as well, because of the way its executed, you may or may not see the Roach Warren based on the speedlings/trying to delay the hatch that -should- be going down.
Blind forge against zerg is.. occasionally a good idea, less so this patch than the previous. Forge first aggression can be devastating. It could work, and probably would work to hold the first attack, but he says he will just switch to banes if he sees cannons, so he'll have 3 roaches + loads of banes to break the wall and your force.
Looks hard to stop, I used to have similar problems with a very fast roach rush, much faster then the 5RR.
2300 Diamond Random, take it or leave it.
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On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here..
On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren.
Exactly - there's a difference.
On February 02 2011 15:40 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. I still wonder about this. From trying out the timings myself, I felt like chronoing out sentries was enough and obviously if you can get away with not making cannons, that's going to be even better.
True, if you could get away without cannons than it would be better, but from watching Travis' game, I dont see how that would be possible. If you can post a replay then we can see for sure. I'm entirely open to being convinced that gateways and chronoboosts are the way to go if it's shown to work. Also, it's important to remember that with an overlord, the roaches will be harassing your wall, so simply forcefielding will just keep them from flat-out killing out, and not from doing damage.
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On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here..
If the easiest and most effecient way to defend this is cannons, he should build some fucking cannons. You could also fully block the entrance with a second gateway and go stalkers and then get blink later, or he could just power out some more zealots and stalkers. Neither of those options are preferable, which is why you make cannons.
*Note that i'm not protoss, so the builds might not be possible. But the point stands.
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It warms my heart to see Protoss struggling to beat an all in from zerg. Fact of the matter is, a zerg all in is very transparent (no way to hide it) and has no real fall back. And this was truly one with no fallback. I'm not going to explain ways of defending this since you Protoss know the answer. I will politely welcome you to hell.
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On February 02 2011 13:42 confusedcrib wrote:This is a replay of me getting an immortal and two warp gates at around 5:40. It's worth testing instead of being all high and mighty about other peoples advice. It's worth trying as my build is not optimized in the least. http://www.mediafire.com/?ttqasdfku14hq4p
Please watch the original replay better. At 5:13 when the roach ling would be coming up your ramp, you have 2 zealot 1 stalker. Your zealots are going to get sniped and then the lings will swarm your stlaker. You could get a sentry out instead of the second zealot, but even then you'd only have 1, as you had 110 or so gas. Your robo bay wasn't even complete yet, so there was no way an immortal would be out in time to actually let you survive the rush.
On February 02 2011 14:08 Salv wrote:
That's ridiculous. They have 14 drones and no tech. You will have close to 25 probes yourself, and you can start to tech. It's a tricky all-in at best - but there has been nothing to suggest it's even that hard to beat.
Not necessarily. They could skip the next rounds of units and build drones instead (there's an overlord at your ramp scouting what you are doing anyways, and you are blind at this point), pulling all drones off gas after you can no longer scout them. At that point, with 24 against 14 + some more drones about to hatch, the difference is not too great, as beyond 16 drones on minerals per base does not lead to a great increase.
Certainly if you cannon, you have to be able to exert mobile pressure, or else you are done. For example vs 7 pool if you just throw down a full block with cannon the moment you see it but then don't build units out of 2 or 3 gateways and threaten to push the zerg, zerg can have ~62 drones on 2 bases by the time your 4 warpgates finish, should you go that. In this case cyber core is already almost done by the time you scout this, so while not so dramatic, your subsequent gateways will be delayed, and zerg can probably be on 2 base with 40ish drones by the time you have any serious warpgate pressure possible - which leads one to tech cheese, not very stable imo.
Of course I don't know how exactly it would play out, just saying that cannons are usually a bad thing if you are going to be on 1 base.
Anyways, as far as holding this without cannon, your probe was alive - so do a poke barely within visual range of a building hatchery when you are about 25 supply (I think that's when zerg speedling expand would put hatchery down), and if you don't scout an expansion, then use all chronos on gateways for sentries (0 chrono on warpgate research), and scout for hidden expansions, going for 4 gate with delayed warpgate but faster sentry.
And, usually if I think that the egg that just started is zerglings, I have about 20 seconds before I need to be leaving his base, in order to possibly keep my probe alive and unseen, since zerglings take 24 ingame seconds to build. In this case, it would've let you spot the roach warren.
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On February 02 2011 15:37 Piledriver wrote:
Those of you saying "23 probes vs 14 drones", it's never so easy versus zerg because of queen mechanic. He will most probably exceed your probe count in the next two inject cycles. If anything, its a marginal disadvantage, which is offset by the fact that he forced you to get a forge + 2 cannons (450 minerals = 9 drones), and delayed your tech/expand significantly. Also more cannons = lower unit count while pressuring.
Counter intuitive as it may sound, I think a forge FE would be the best counter to this build. As a toss who goes fast nexus in always every game versus zerg (on all maps except steppes of war and DQ), I have faced my fair share of all-ins, and mostly defend them decently. I'm a 2700 Diamond toss with about 55% win ratio in all MU, but around 70% vs zerg, so take my low level experience for whatever it is worth.
You have to enter a game planning on forge FE in order to counter this though...the hope here is to find ways in which to keep something resembling the standard 3-gate while also staving off the all-in, either by throwing down a forge immediately on scouting the warren or by some other method
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On February 02 2011 15:41 Orome wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 15:40 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:38 Salv wrote:On February 02 2011 15:35 Atlare wrote:On February 02 2011 15:34 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:26 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:21 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On February 02 2011 15:17 travis wrote:On February 02 2011 15:15 MonsieurGrimm wrote:
He obviously isn't looking for help, he's looking for sympathy.
Just let the thread die, every suggestion has already been made. GFY 9 out of 10 suggestions have been absolutely retarded You haven't really come up with any yourself, all you've done is bitch, moan and insult everyone who doesn't want your dick in their mouth. Uh, the entire point of the thread was me asking for help. And no, no I haven't. I actually haven't insulted anyone. Except for you, you're a tool. I also have done very little bitching or moaning, pretty much only one moan and it was in the OP. Every chance you get, you shoot down every suggestion presented to you. With the rapidity of you responses, there is no way you've given them a fair shot. Instead you just make claims abou the timings, even though you've been presented with evidence to the contrary. You have also insulted the posts of other members, calling their suggestins retarded and the like. Quit while you're still ahead in a few people's minds. He shoots everything down quickly because at least 9/10 suggestions were either mentioned before, fucking stupid or something about cannons. Cannons are the best way to stop this, that's why it's being repeated - you don't even know what you're talking about at this point. You've provided nothing to this thread except your blind agreeance with Travis. So the fact that the OP said he didn't want to forge but defend this is suddenly void? Jesus christ its not like you just got here.. He said he didn't want to forge blindly, because that'd be completely ridiculous. Salv is saying you forge as a reaction to the roach warren.
Which is a completely proper reaction to this build, but due to toss' reluctance to go forge after the roach buff, this is a great BO for us zergs to punish toss standard play. And I do not know how economies would stack up after toss builds a forge + 2-3 cannons, even after cutting so many drones. It might be possible to recover as zerg as long as you build no more than those first 3 roaches and focus entirely on drone production.
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EPT
