EPT[H] 3 roach+speedling all-in PvZ - Page 11
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Vietnam1 Post
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:03 Salv wrote: So can we say this build has been debunked? We know of at least one safe way to deal with it? yes i will admit that there seems to be a timing in which u are able to scout the roach warren and then u can prepare with cannons, or possibly something else (im not sure about that though). and thank god for that. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
I would suggest that your best bet with this would honestly be, after you are certain it is coming, to just delay with buildings at your wall and to get a stalker. Force field your ramp as much as you can and delay with buildings, and pull a few probes when it's time to fight them. Reactionary it's pretty hard to stop this, although there are various planned builds out before hand that could blind counter this, like a 2 gate zealot rush or a forge fast expand. I'm curious as to whether you could get voidrays out in time if you went one gate > cyber > stargate > other gates, and chrono boosted the stargate. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:05 Let it Raine wrote: your conversation at the end of the replay annoyed me. zergs complain because toss has many builds that require specific responses. You just scouted and made a sentry expecting 15 seconds to save the day. Maybe if you needed 15 seconds to get out something that could kill him, sure, but you just got out another sentry to waste everyones time for ANOTHER 15 seconds. A zerg one base all in that works, it's so unlikely that people can't stomach the thought of preparing in a suboptimal way to hold it off. (welcome to the life of a zerg) the difference is zergs can stop any build with units. and im oh so sorry i offended u mr zerg. do u notice how the zerg player laughs when i say that, he didn't seem offended did he? ur not gonna see me complaining about zerg even after this, because now i know how to deal with it. what's the excuse that zergs have? | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On February 02 2011 15:52 morimacil wrote: If workers are made for the next 2 inject cycles, the zerg will quite simply die to any toss counter attack. In the 80 seconds it takes to do 2 rounds of injects, toss can easily throw down another 3 or so gateways, bringing him up to 5, let warpgate tech finish, and be attacking the front. If zerg wants to do 2 rounds of drones, and 1 of roaches for example, thats 40 seconds for the first one, 40 seconds again, another 40 seconds, so 120 seconds until the larva pops, and then another 30 seconds until the roaches are actually made, thats 150 seconds. 2 minutes and a half. More than enough time for the toss to make 3 gateways and cross the map. Dude, everything is not so black and white. As long as you have your lings at the bottom of his ramp, you can see his army move out and decide how to use your next batch of larva appropriately. As long as there is no imminent threat you can throw down an expand get a couple of spine crawlers up. Its definitely winnable and not "all-in" as you claim it to be. And guess what, the same units that you made to attack can be used to defend, as long as you didnt suicide them into the cannons and knew how to pull back. The term all-in is just abused in these forums I swear. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Honestly though, if we're looking at this VERY objectively.... Z cuts workers at 14, puts all his economy into Army production. P continues to make probes, doesn't build any units, loses to attack. I think it's good that there's finally a definitive weakness to a 1z wall though. You can't just go full econ and be secure while you chrono the shit out of WG anymore. Also, is there a reason you didn't scout his pool or warren? (You said you knew it was coming so I guess that's why). Assuming you scouted it before, just use your 3rd chrono on your WG instead, nd you'd have 3 stalkers by the time your FF's go down. If we're speaking strictly reactionary here: 1WG chrono is going to give you 10 more seconds (I'm sure you know this) I don't think you need to invest in a pylon that's going to prevent your probe maynarding and inhibit your own mobility. You scout his early pool, and I think it would be the conservative play here to use your 3rd chrono on your WG instead of your nexus. As I discussed in this thread here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179604 The 3rd chrono nets you only about 60 minerals over the following 3 minutes, and so if you can trade 60 minerals for 10 seconds on your WG, I think that's probably the key in this fight. It's more conservative and will allow you to beat this timing. Granted, most of the time you're going to scout a 14g/14p build (and this is close enough that you may have trouble distinguishing it), that just means that most of the time now, you're going to have to give that 3rd chrono to your WG instead of your econ. One can argue that you could have stayed to spot the warren, but he could have simply delayed it by 3-5 seconds and that doesn't really help you enough to warrant the death of your worker. TL;DR After scouting him and seeing the gas/pool build, just opt to use your 3rd chrono on your WG instead of your probes. | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:07 Whitewing wrote: Most of the arguments for explanations for what Travis could have done here are making a huge assumption that Travis has attempted to warn you of, but I don't think he's done the best job explaining it. You all assume that if he scouted the roach warren timing and what the zerg has, that he would always be able to perfectly deduce what zerg intends to do, and that zerg cannot change their mind based on what he sees either. Yes, if he scouts it, instantly decides what the build is going to be and throws down a forge and cannons, and zerg follows through he can defend it. But, if zerg decides to hatch instead and Travis threw down the cannons, he's boned. If zerg makes the units, then decides to not commit to the push and drones up while containing, the match might play standard from there but I'd guess zerg might be ahead, due to getting the extra base up and how fast you can drone. I would suggest that your best bet with this would honestly be, after you are certain it is coming, to just delay with buildings at your wall and to get a stalker. Force field your ramp as much as you can and delay with buildings, and pull a few probes when it's time to fight them. Reactionary it's pretty hard to stop this, although there are various planned builds out before hand that could blind counter this, like a 2 gate zealot rush or a forge fast expand. I'm curious as to whether you could get voidrays out in time if you went one gate > cyber > stargate > other gates, and chrono boosted the stargate. I now used this build 5 times against protoss, all of them have been literally SMASHED trying to go 3warpgate. Yes, people have placed forges(in reaction), but I break the wall before their cannon(s) is placed. The key is keeping the initial(only) 3 roaches alive, and your 20+lings do the rest of the work taking out the stalker/sentries. but to answer this quote, if he goes fast stargate, you can only Chrono a pheonix out. I'm at your door in 5:00 with 3 roaches and 16 speedlings. Unless you go straight stargate I don't see the voidray coming out before I break the wall. The only direct counter I can see to this is 1base forge contain (LOL wut) But then I park my units outside your base and FE and win. Every game I win with this strat reminds me of all those times I've had a line of zealots warped in when I 15 hatch. | ||
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MajorityofOne
Canada2506 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:07 Whitewing wrote: Most of the arguments for explanations for what Travis could have done here are making a huge assumption that Travis has attempted to warn you of, but I don't think he's done the best job explaining it. You all assume that if he scouted the roach warren timing and what the zerg has, that he would always be able to perfectly deduce what zerg intends to do, and that zerg cannot change their mind based on what he sees either. Yes, if he scouts it, instantly decides what the build is going to be and throws down a forge and cannons, and zerg follows through he can defend it. But, if zerg decides to hatch instead and Travis threw down the cannons, he's boned. If zerg makes the units, then decides to not commit to the push and drones up while containing, the match might play standard from there but I'd guess zerg might be ahead, due to getting the extra base up and how fast you can drone. I would suggest that your best bet with this would honestly be, after you are certain it is coming, to just delay with buildings at your wall and to get a stalker. Force field your ramp as much as you can and delay with buildings, and pull a few probes when it's time to fight them. Reactionary it's pretty hard to stop this, although there are various planned builds out before hand that could blind counter this, like a 2 gate zealot rush or a forge fast expand. I'm curious as to whether you could get voidrays out in time if you went one gate > cyber > stargate > other gates, and chrono boosted the stargate. I'm not 100% on this because I never open VR, but I think the timing is too late. | ||
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farseerdk
Canada504 Posts
How many of you know what I'm talking about when I say "great wall of HongUn"? I'm refering to the game where HongUn holds off a super all-in from Fruitdealer by continually rebuilding his wall. Granted, this was done off two bases, so I'm not sure if you'd have enough income to keep building the wall off 1 base... | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:10 Asparagus wrote: I now used this build 5 times against protoss, all of them have been literally SMASHED trying to go 3warpgate. Yes, people have placed forges(in reaction), but I break the wall before their cannon(s) is placed. The key is keeping the initial(only) 3 roaches alive, and your 20+lings do the rest of the work taking out the stalker/sentries. but to answer this quote, if he goes fast stargate, you can only Chrono a pheonix out. I'm at your door in 5:00 with 3 roaches and 16 speedlings. Unless you go straight stargate I don't see the voidray coming out before I break the wall. The only direct counter I can see to this is 1base forge contain (LOL wut) But then I park my units outside your base and FE and win. Every game I win with this strat reminds me of all those times I've had a line of zealots warped in when I 15 hatch. oh ho ho, but didn't u read so many of the replies? this build is easy to stop! but clearly i am just dismissive for not listening to those people or saying they don't know what they are talking about. anyways it's stoppable yes. but it's ridiculously ridiculously powerful. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:13 farseerdk wrote: Voidray wont come out before you break 1 wall... but if you build another wall behind it, it might. How many of you know what I'm talking about when I say "great wall of HongUn"? I'm refering to the game where HongUn holds off a super all-in from Fruitdealer by continually rebuilding his wall. Granted, this was done off two bases, so I'm not sure if you'd have enough income to keep building the wall off 1 base... by far the most rediculous thing done in sc2 and could only ever be beaten in crazy defense if the same happened in BW because of how buildings wall off you'd have to memorize every possible wall in for every situation just to keep up. | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:13 farseerdk wrote: Voidray wont come out before you break 1 wall... but if you build another wall behind it, it might. How many of you know what I'm talking about when I say "great wall of HongUn"? I'm refering to the game where HongUn holds off a super all-in from Fruitdealer by continually rebuilding his wall. Granted, this was done off two bases, so I'm not sure if you'd have enough income to keep building the wall off 1 base... If this build is executed correctly (I pull the 3 drones off gas after I get 75 for the initial 3 roaches) I'm expanding while wrecking his base. if he continuously builds his wall over and over, I know #1 his probes are stuck at 22, #2 his army is fairly small, #3 my army can just pull back and I'll be safe, his tech will be behind save maybe a stargate, and I'm droning like mad+queening up before he can mass a counter attack. He has to kill his wall before doing so though LOL. | ||
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MonsieurGrimm
Canada2441 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:06 travis wrote: yes i will admit that there seems to be a timing in which u are able to scout the roach warren and then u can prepare with cannons, or possibly something else (im not sure about that though). and thank the TeamLiquid.net community for that. Credit where credit is due... | ||
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waffleduck
125 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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farseerdk
Canada504 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:15 Asparagus wrote: If this build is executed correctly (I pull the 3 drones off gas after I get 75 for the initial 3 roaches) I'm expanding while wrecking his base. if he continuously builds his wall over and over, I know #1 his probes are stuck at 22, #2 his army is fairly small, #3 my army can just pull back and I'll be safe, his tech will be behind save maybe a stargate, and I'm droning like mad+queening up before he can mass a counter attack. He has to kill his wall before doing so though LOL. Not quite. If you pull back he can cancel his wall at minimal mineral loss and his void is still coming out which is going to cause much pain. Once the void is out, a phoenix can be boosted out next, which can not only be annoying wiht overlords, but cna pick up a queen while the voidray kills it. Once the 2nd phoenix is out you'd be 100% boned because hydras are NOT coming anytime soon and off 1 hatch you wont have enough queens. Yes this forces the protoss all-in, but it's a potential response. 22 probes is more than enough for 1 stargate constant production and that's all he needs. | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
[/QUOTE] oh ho ho, but didn't u read so many of the replies? this build is easy to stop! but clearly i am just dismissive for not listening to those people or saying they don't know what they are talking about. anyways it's stoppable yes. but it's ridiculously ridiculously powerful. [/QUOTE] It's equally as powerful as 2rax or 4-5scv+marine pressure vs zerg who 14g14p or 15hatch14pool. it's not unbeatable, just as building a blind baneling nest will help in zvt, but it's pretty annoying. needless to say, I'm riding the pleasure train. guys who "gl hf ^_^" then ragequit just make me lol. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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Treemonkeys
United States2082 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:09 travis wrote: the difference is zergs can stop any build with units. and im oh so sorry i offended u mr zerg. do u notice how the zerg player laughs when i say that, he didn't seem offended did he? ur not gonna see me complaining about zerg even after this, because now i know how to deal with it. what's the excuse that zergs have? Uh... a spine crawler is pretty standard for a few things. It's definitely not viable to try and stop 2rax without one. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1825 Posts
Man, the moment you see the roach warren and the pool twitching, just slam a 2nd gateway down and chrono shit out. All it takes is for you to be smarter with your probe scout. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On February 02 2011 16:21 Treemonkeys wrote: Uh... a spine crawler is pretty standard for a few things. It's definitely not viable to try and stop 2rax without one. ok ur prolly right i never was even thinking about tvz tbh just pvz | ||
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