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This is theorycrafty, but could you cut probes to throw down two more gates when you see the Roach Warren building?
From what I gather, the real strength of this build is that it basically hits and breaks through right before warp-gate tech becomes meaningful.
So, the way I see it, if you want to stop it without using cannons, you need to use units, and since you can't take advantage of warpgates, those units need to come out of pre-warpgate gateways, and one gateway clearly isn't enough to stop it.
If you had...say...3 stalkers and a zealots, could you hold it? If you saw the Roach Warren when it was halfway done and immediately responded by cutting probes and throwing down two more gates, then saving up chronoboosts, would the units come out of those two gates fast enough to be of use?
I'll have to show this to a Z practice partner when I log on next time, since I'm mostly just pulling this stuff out of my ass.
Yea, it sucks having to cut probes, but even so, this build is very all-in-y by Zerg, and if you hold it without losing any probes, then you're miles ahead.
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1 zealot 2 stalker instead of 2 sentrys
Or the 4th sentry could have been canceled when you got warpgate tech to get earlier or even get something better to hold... like stalker.
Do it the same way as 7rr harass with stalkers until they reach you to wear the rush down.
Sorry if this was already told.
Also, 1 or 2 more chrono boost on warpgate and you could have 1 extra unit at the push (but less gateway i know)
Thats what i Did when i faced that push.
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Not to offend but I expected better manners from someone with a liquid tag 
anyway I'm not on your level (2600 masters) so not sure if my advice will help. But as I think someone mentioned, with this build there is a window toscout the roach warren, and since he basicly has to drop it right after the pool finishes I think there's enough room to see the roach warren and build a forge and couple canons if you see it.
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Are you guys not seeing the big thing with this build? It's using the ovie for high ground sight to snipe the zealot
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On February 02 2011 16:27 hunts wrote:Not to offend but I expected better manners from someone with a liquid tag
where did I have bad manners?
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On February 02 2011 16:30 CellTech wrote:
Are you guys not seeing the big thing with this build? It's using the ovie for high ground sight to snipe the zealot
Pretty sure that is standard operating procedure for any roach rush.
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The build is unstoppable.
Sacrificing a probe to scout is unreasonable.
Making cannons to stop and all-in is unreasonable
Having half the amount of workers your opponent has doesnt make you all in
Due to larva inject, zerg can always be magically ahead in workers, no matter how far behind they start off.
triple expanding off 14 drones vs a toss with 24 probes and warp gate reasearch finishing is viable.
Seems like Im a bit slow, took me over 10 pages to realise Im being trolled -_-
mod edit- removing stupid image
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morimacil who are you even replying to? random people in the thread? because i didn't say any of that, lol. other than sacrificing a probe is unreasonable, which i kinda backtracked on
god, why are people so full of shit. how dare i post this and then argue a position. why am i getting so much shit for this from random people who probably are terrible at the game anyways
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@travis
I'm not high in the ladder but off the timing apparent with your replay you would have scouted his gas after pool and lack of expo at 2:30 (about the time you did scout him after catching his ovie and redirecting your 9 scout probe). Since it is clear that a 2ff defense isn't good enough to hold you either need to save your 3rd chrono for warpgate (spent on probe avail@2:15) to get up warpgate JUST before attack arrives . You had 31seconds of non-chrono'd WG research. The 1 extra chrono would cut an additional 10seconds extra off the research time allowing you to have that extra little bit to get out 2 additional sentries before the roach/ling come barreling up your ramp, the window of opportunity is small, but it is there.
Markers the Zerg is doing this build
Save 3rd Chrono @2:15
Probe arrives @~2:30 (assuming it is the 2nd base to scout and a 9scout)
Extractor finshes @2:30
Roach Warren starts @ 2:55
(this is ofc a pool first build)
You deal with it either by:
forgoing your 3rd pylon and dropping a forge(after cyber) and then 2 cannons with a pylon wall off, sentries are still necessary to keep the roach from sniping the pylon so don't stop your gas collection. If you go this route the 3rd chrono shouldn't be necessary to speed up warp-gate since you will only be on 1 gate anyway, instead I would chrono sentries. (this is untested but I'm pretty confident a couple sentries with a 2cannon wall would hold it)
-or-
The 3gate Warpgate defense is afaik the best defense possible since if you are able to hold the attack you can easily expand behind it or counter due to your overwhelming economic advantage.
You MUST Chrono Warpgate completely anything less will leave a timing apparent in the replay.
I envision the 3gate defense as such:
Normal gate (13) and cyber (17) timing
2nd gate @26/34* or 4:15
3rd gate @ 29/34* or 4:40
*this should be very close since there was a little downtime in probe production vs. using 1 less chrono on them
The second Gate should finish about the same time as WG and be in on your 1st round of WG sentries.
Walling off with your 3rd pylon might be a good idea although if it isn't traded for some enemy units will limit your retaliation, the sentries should be sufficient IF your WG & 2nd gas timing is spot on.
The BO:
Pylon (9)
Scout
Gate (13)
Gas (14)
Cyber (17)
Zealot (20)
Gas (21) (this is needed no later, and assuming your scout arrives when it does it isn't blind)
Pylon (22)
Warpgate (22) -you saved your 3rd Chrono right?-
Sentry (24)
Gate (26)
Sentry (29)
Gate (29)
WIN
Basic follow up should be to expand and keep pressure so that the zerg cannot drone up. I don't see Immortal as a strong following move since mass ling will deal with your army well already. Get many sentrii (6-8) and pressure the zerg, kill them if they expand with a ramp ff and nat snipe. basically the 3gate 2base timing except that you should have a expo and worker advantage, DO NOT OVERCOMMIT, if the zerg hasn't expanded he should be able to overrun you if you arn't careful with the ff's at this timing.
I could also see a 10gate doing well against this build since you will get up WG sooner but this will bust the quickest 4gate if lacking sentries. This build if done well by zergs up and down the ladder is going to cause absolute havoc for the match-up and have people QQ'ing like 4gate had for every match up since it appears to be very strong. Just speculation but I am pretty confident that 2gate wouldn't work against this build AT ALL because it is pool first and ling speed+queen is quite quick. I am really wondering if this build will filter down the ladder and I am always excited to see some more options for Zerg early against protoss even if it is still a cheese.
EDIT- hope that helps, your build was on the right track just needed a little more refining imo
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On February 02 2011 16:31 travis wrote:
[where did I have bad manners?
The way you talked in the replay kinda seemed a bit BM but I guess it's to be expected when someone loses to the same thing 3x in a row.
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On February 02 2011 16:30 CellTech wrote:
Are you guys not seeing the big thing with this build? It's using the ovie for high ground sight to snipe the zealot
Eh? This is done in every RR. Or is my sarcasm meter epic fail?
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On February 02 2011 16:35 hunts wrote:The way you talked in the replay kinda seemed a bit BM but I guess it's to be expected when someone loses to the same thing 3x in a row.
what did i say in the replay that was bm? the "what the hell" or "what the fuck?"? that was in response to his lings running right through my guys. wtf was the deal with that, anyways. i was actually pretty good spirited about it considering how frustrating it was.
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On February 02 2011 16:36 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:35 hunts wrote:On February 02 2011 16:31 travis wrote:
[where did I have bad manners? The way you talked in the replay kinda seemed a bit BM but I guess it's to be expected when someone loses to the same thing 3x in a row. what did i say in the replay that was bm? the "what the hell" or "what the fuck?"? that was in response to his lings running right through my guys. wtf was the deal with that, anyways.
You units can sense tilt and they start to rebel. 
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I'd like someone to post a replay of a Protoss holding this push without having to lose probes.
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10 gate could work, but having to open 10 gate every game in case the Zerg is doing this is a little unreasonable.
Also, when deciding how to beat this, you have to assume that you can't attack the overlord from your platform, even with stalkers. A well-positioned overlord will be un-attackable while still having sight up the platform, and having an overlord within attack range of a stalker would be the Zerg player's mistake, so dealing with the overlord isn't really the answer here.
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Worked first time for me. Opponent went Zealot Stalker and killed off my overlord but didnt help him.
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btw, im very appreciative to people who actually seriously discussed the game and what to build / what to do without being sarcastic or sidetracking or being a dick. im even a little appreciative to the ones who didn't know what they were talking about.
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-sacrifice units (for nothing)
-get (possible) useless units/buildings
-get your scouting denied
-get steamrolled if you have guessed wrong
-ultra tight timings that decide to die/not to die
-being behind no matter what
That sounds like a pretty normal Zerg day since day 1 of SC2.
Im obviously a Zerg player that said the only tip I can give you is: if you smell something fishy like no expansion throw down your forge and at least 1 cannon even when you get behind if hes not rushing.
Although Im 100% sure if this build gets popular (and now it will) there will be a good solution to crush this very hard in no time. I guess starting to wall your ramp with a pylon will be a good point to start from... at least it gives you a few extra seconds.
Last but not least I hope T and P will sooner or later get rid of the mentality to think only they have the right to pressure and dictate where the game is going. Even Blizzard stated this in the last interview with Dustin Browder they will fix this problem with Z at least with the next expansion. I dont really believe it but hope dies last.
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On February 02 2011 16:36 travis wrote:
[what did i say in the replay that was bm? the "what the hell" or "what the fuck?"? that was in response to his lings running right through my guys. wtf was the deal with that, anyways. i was actually pretty good spirited about it considering how frustrating it was.
that's true, I just found the imbalance talk i guess "less mannered than ive seen from other liquid guys" but yeha, I'm not here to try and judge or analyse your manners or anything, was just kinda my opinion.
anyway I tried this a coiple times with afriend after reading this and watching that replay. (again I'm not on your level, only 2600) What would basicly happen is his probe would stay around untill after pool finished and would see the roach warren, then either run away or stay and die. But seeing that gave him the signal to make a forge and couple canons at the ramp, and it nullified that attack. Then it would go into a normal game with both of us being behind in econ from me trying to all in like that, and him having to make the forge and canons without it being a forge FE.
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On February 02 2011 16:40 travis wrote:
btw, im very appreciative to people who actually seriously discussed the game and what to build / what to do without being sarcastic or sidetracking or being a dick. im even a little appreciative to the ones who didn't know what they were talking about.
classy and XD
im not gonna lie i was a little tilt when i saw that "im not losing that drone damnit!! =O" but otherwise this was a useful thread for me as a Z, and im sure the Ps got something out of it as well. Lets go to bed
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EPT
