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lol.. I think I played this guy's rush.. its the reason I have been changing my old 3 gate expand a bit after getting destroyed by the rush to try to survive it if I face it again.
Some things I have thought of are..
1. 24 supply (22 probe, 1 zealot sentry starts 5 seconds later) 2nd gateway for me which is 4:00. Your 2nd started 4:18 I think.. build a sentry in it.. I think that would get 3rd sentry done at 5:47 with no chronoboost on it. If its chronboosted you can FF ramp again.. then your warp gate tech is done. Cancel sentry from first gate change to warp gate and 2nd.. thats 2 more FF.
2. Earlier 2nd gas so you can start sentry sooner.. cybernetics core was done 10 seconds before you had enough gas.
3. Sentry before warpgate tech and more chrono on sentries... I think would get 3rd sentry from first gate in time to FF after 2nd gates sentry FFs. So that would be 4 FF on ramps without warp gate tech done..
4. Watch tower to scout.. if you see it coming then chronoboost sentries.. Also though maybe to save energy to have 2 chronoboosts possible if needed.
I am pretty sure 1 or 2 of those would work.. I have mainly been doing faster 2nd gas for faster sentry start.. and slightly faster 2nd gate than what I used to do.. havent faced it again so dunno if it would work.
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On February 02 2011 16:36 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:35 hunts wrote:On February 02 2011 16:31 travis wrote:
[where did I have bad manners? The way you talked in the replay kinda seemed a bit BM but I guess it's to be expected when someone loses to the same thing 3x in a row. what did i say in the replay that was bm? the "what the hell" or "what the fuck?"? that was in response to his lings running right through my guys. wtf was the deal with that, anyways. i was actually pretty good spirited about it considering how frustrating it was.
Big ups to you for bringing about a discussion on this build. I think the discussion was helpful to alot of us, though I have no freaking idea why people got so touchy
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Like I said if anybody wants to practice the timings with me PM me. I'm pretty sure you can hold it off by going skipping zealot, throwing down 2 gates after you scout early roach warren, and doing a complete wall-off with gate/gate/core. Other than that I'm out of here because the thread is getting derailed.
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I was just playing a game vs the computer (very hard) to see what could be done in that time, when the cpu roach rushed me and did a very similar timing to the replay in the op(no lings though so that is the big question, you may have to pull a 4 or 5 probes for the lings so there is no runby, but I don't think it will put you behind even if they all were to die but you stop the attack) . Warren after pool, with no lings. I pylon blocked his expo (which I always do in pvz, it also would let you know your opponent is not trying to expo in a normal game and give you view of units coming off the ramp) Replay below.
This replay might be the answer Travis. Also note, the followup I use to provide me with a normal expansion timing. This build should be able to keep your ability to expo and counter attack viable, so if the zerg plays an econ game or hides an expo (because of the pylon) you are still fine as toss.
Notice as soon as I scout the warren I cut probes, and all my crono goes to gates, and I stay on 1 gas and don't make sentries (although 1 sentry will probably still be fine to buy the 15 seconds to get 2 more units from the gateways out)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133906-1v1-protoss-zerg-steppes-of-war
If you want to try it out, just play the very hard cpu on steppes of war. I'm pretty sure if you pylon block the expo like I did, the cpu will do this rush at the timing we're worried about automatically as a response.
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Ok Travis, here is what you have to do: make forge at 10, wall inn with a nexus, and surround with canons. Its so easy!
On a more serious note though, I have absolutely no idea. Going to spread this replay to some of my clanmates and see if I can work up a solution. And even then it might not help you even in the slightest, seeing as I'm only 2600 master myself.
This only really confirms what I've already had huge troubles with against zerg lately, which is early aggression. It seems that if its not scouted the exact second it happens, and you somehow manage to get a forge and two canons down, there is no way to defend against it.
On a light note, if you can stop this without losing too many probes, you are pretty much ensured a victory, seeing as he's still on one base on 30 food.
EDIT: also, hitboxes on stalkers and sentries seriously need an update. It is practically impossible to block lings with those two units. I dunno how many times I've had 8-9 stalkers crammed into a small opening between gateway and cyber core, and lings still somehow manage to find space to run through..
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On February 02 2011 16:40 travis wrote:
btw, im very appreciative to people who actually seriously discussed the game and what to build / what to do without being sarcastic or sidetracking or being a dick. im even a little appreciative to the ones who didn't know what they were talking about.
Hope mine was helpful and not to repetitive, If I shouldn't have went to bed 2hrs ago I would have player through this build a couple times with some friends to see if they could shave the timing down some more as well although it seems in good hands.
The forge/cannon build is likely the safer of the two options I refer to, but I can't think of a good way of following it up other then stargate since baneling/roach will tear through any expo if he faints expanding himself and then all-in's. The choke is sooo important to mitigate the banes. (Although I think the effectiveness of the Stargate is offset if he doesn't go banes and instead techs to lair while holding you contained.)
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On February 02 2011 16:51 Excludos wrote:
Ok Travis, here is what you have to do: make forge at 10, wall inn with a nexus, and surround with canons. Its so easy!
.
You forgot the part where you carrier rush, and then transition into losing your whole fucking base
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I'm not familiar with timings, but here is a shot Travis:
One question I have is would you scout what he's doing before the completion of the cybernatics core?
Would the probe count you have suffice zealots from two gate, and then you use the zealots to hold the attack off. From there, he probably will stop making lings if enough zealots are presant and retreat the attack. You start the core as soon as you think possible while holding the attack off (if you have the money to make it and have enough lots to hold the ramp), and then build stalkers.
Before stalkers finish, it should be likely he will back off and would it be possible to pump probes, get three stalkers and six zealots, and pressure out while building a expansion.
They will hold their ramp, and you use stalkers to attack roaches that may be present and zealots to take care of any lings on the ramp. Pressure into the main base.
If there are spine crawlers, stay out where the expansion area is for zerg and delay his expansion while you set your expansion up. Reinforce with Sentries/Stalkers/lots, and contain him.
Would some version of that be viable, or would the timings put you far behind and allow the Zerg player to be ahead? Or would there be too many roaches/lings for the small counter-attack force to do anything?
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On February 02 2011 16:53 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 16:51 Excludos wrote:
Ok Travis, here is what you have to do: make forge at 10, wall inn with a nexus, and surround with canons. Its so easy!
. You forgot the part where you carrier rush, and then transition into losing your whole fucking base
woosh!
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Why is it unreasonable to sac a probe to scout? zerg is expected to regularly sac OL's worth twice as much, terran at least pays a price for a scan, and you are not willing to sac one probe to avert disaster?!
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A protoss should _always_ make one last lap around the hatchery when z pool is finished before he flees with his probe. That's the most vital timing to scout a Z. You should note the following:
If ling speed starts to upgrade and he pulls all drones off gas. If ling speed isn't being researched immediately, or if he does not pull drones of gas once ling speed upgrade starts, he's usually not going for a normal expand eco build. Either some fast lair build or early roaches.
If a queen starts. If the queen does not start building just as the pool finishes, expect him to place an early hatchery.
If you don't see any eggs morphing or if he saves up larvae. If z has idle larvae and not building drones, he's up to something. You don't have to flee with your probe until ~5 seconds after you see the first egg after spawning pool being morphed.
You could have spotted his roach warren if you were more active with your scouting probe, sure he could have delayed it like 5 seconds. But 5 seconds can be critical in these types of rushes. The biggest tell in this case was however not the roach warren, but the idle larvae. You should always be weary of a rush build when you see unused larvae early on.
As for the attack: when you saw the 3 roaches, you should have mentally gone into "all-in defense mode" and immediately started to cb your gateway instead of your core and be ready to place a pylon/gate when your FF energy runs out to make a ling tight wall-in.
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What makes this work is that Roaches are used for breaking the wall off to enable the run-by, this is aided by the scouting overlord. A pretty interesting strategy really.
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On February 02 2011 16:58 AKA. wrote:
Why is it unreasonable to sac a probe to scout? zerg is expected to regularly sac OL's worth twice as much, terran at least pays a price for a scan, and you are not willing to sac one probe to avert disaster?!
my main problem with doing that is that the probe can be super useful later on, and if he gets lings outside ur ramp quick enough ur never gonna be able to get another probe out. but i suppose u could just send a 2nd probe out before lings get there.
also as i said before i kinda backtracked, i suppose it's not that unreasonable
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That's an interesting timing, I don't play PvZ so I won't comment, but I'm intuitively thinking that this may need to be a build where you need to pull probes to defend (probably a ramp cut with FF and packing the ramp - similar to how the old proxy 9rax concussive marauder rush required you to pull probes TvP) if you want to counter it in a non-blind way.
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Also I've tried this build several times vs a practice partner. Its VERY good, theres no doubt. Heres how we figured to stop it w/o knowing to much in advance, but its not pretty:
1) scout that a rush is coming, take an educated guess
2) get sentrys up ASAP
3) the sentrys wont be there in time
4) sac probes to hold wall till senty
5) keep makeing sentry at a rate so the FF never falls
6) hope to god the R1 plat isnt full of shit
7) wish #6 had worked
good luck
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you just don't have to make any mistakes. lol do you even know how hard it its to defend a very good 4gate? you often can't defend it even when you scouted it.... and you start complaining after losing to a zerg rush twice -.-
Like many other said you can easily defend it by:
- Seeing his roach warren go up at 3:00 with your probe
- Immidiatly throw down a forge
- Scout for expansion, if there is none at 3:40 put down some cannons
-> cannons are up even before he starts attacking you -> WIN
If he doesn't come attacking (you can scout again with a probe) cancel all but one cannon and forge expand yourself. you a clearly ahead because his build sucks when he doesn't attack. also please stop whining in op and in your games because you lost to a rush... its not good for you and not good for the community :/ stay calm and focused !
not that hard
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On February 02 2011 17:04 TehForce wrote:
you just don't have to make any mistakes. lol do you even know how hard it its to defend a very good 4gate? you often can't defend it even when you scouted it.... and you start complaining after losing to a zerg rush twice -.-
Like many other said you can easily defend it by:
- Seeing his roach warren go up at 3:00 with your probe
- Immidiatly throw down a forge
- Scout for expansion, if there is none at 3:40 put down some cannons
-> cannons are up even before he starts attacking you -> WIN
If he doesn't come attacking (you can scout again with a probe) cancel all but one cannon and forge expand yourself. you a clearly ahead because his build sucks when he doesn't attack. also please stop whining in op and in your games because you lost to a rush... its not good for you and not good for the community :/ stay calm and focused !
not that hard
The reason your post is both poorly thought out and incorrect is because he could easily just make drones after dropping a warren, and your scenario doesn't preclude the possibility of him just canceling it outright after you leave. You won't get further information due to lings.
Then you've made a forge and cannons with no knowledge of what the zerg is actually doing.
You're right that a forge and 9 cannons is going to stop 3 roaches and 16 lings. It's not cost efficient to do so, and then you're self-inflicting a lot of phantom damage.
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On February 02 2011 17:09 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2011 17:04 TehForce wrote:
you just don't have to make any mistakes. lol do you even know how hard it its to defend a very good 4gate? you often can't defend it even when you scouted it.... and you start complaining after losing to a zerg rush twice -.-
Like many other said you can easily defend it by:
- Seeing his roach warren go up at 3:00 with your probe
- Immidiatly throw down a forge
- Scout for expansion, if there is none at 3:40 put down some cannons
-> cannons are up even before he starts attacking you -> WIN
If he doesn't come attacking (you can scout again with a probe) cancel all but one cannon and forge expand yourself. you a clearly ahead because his build sucks when he doesn't attack. also please stop whining in op and in your games because you lost to a rush... its not good for you and not good for the community :/ stay calm and focused !
not that hard
The reason your post is both poorly thought out and incorrect is because he could easily just make drones after dropping a warren, and your scenario doesn't preclude the possibility of him just canceling it outright after you leave. You won't get further information due to lings. Then you've made a forge and cannons with no knowledge of what the zerg is actually doing. You're right that a forge and 9 cannons is going to stop 3 roaches and 16 lings. It's not cost efficient to do so, and then you're self-inflicting a lot of phantom damage.
no offense but this kinda sounds like what zerg has to deal with vs protoss.
imagine how hard this build was if the probe couldn't even get into his base (imagine protoss wall) lol
blind cannons doesn't sound like a bad idea if it keeps you alive, kind of like how we have to blindly make units before the 7:00 mark or drop 3-5 spine crawlers without even knowing if protoss is even going to push (thereby making us waste larva)
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i think that in the rep if the zerg did not have his ovie on your ramp it would be diffferent, what about if he does not have the overlord on your ramp?
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You build a third sentry from the gateway instead of morphing warpgate immediately.
You have the gas to warp in two more sentries and nearly a third, delaying the push significantly. At your own discretion any of those can be stalkers if you truly feel that is what you will need in order to best hold the push. Your first forcefield expire with 4 seconds remaining on warpgate research.
This would be cutting it very close, but manually building the sentry is a mistake regardless at that point.
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EPT
