Back in 2011 we held the first TeamLiquid Map Contest which culminated in three maps being added to the StarCraft 2 ladder. These were Cloud Kingdom, Ohana and Korhal Compound. Cloud Kingdom and Ohana went on to become tournament staples for 2012 and continue to be used today in a variety of events. Blizzard have given us the opportunity to do this again and make it bigger.
Team play maps haven't received much turnover on the ladder and Blizzard are looking to address this problem. As a part of that, this edition of the TeamLiquid Map Contest will feature a serious team play component. Blizzard will be considering the finalists for use on ladder, along with some of their own maps. We think that the serious consideration of team play maps this edition is really exciting. The map making community has been heavily focused on 1v1 maps for a long time, and with this new incentive to make team maps we can finally see what kind of innovation the mapping community can bring to team play maps.
So What's Going On?
This edition of the TeamLiquid map contest will have two categories - 1v1 maps and team play maps. Team play maps are 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 maps. After a rigorous judging/testing process, finalists and winners in both categories will be announced and those maps will be considered by Blizzard for use in the official StarCraft 2 ladder map pool for future ladder seasons. Selected maps (if any) may be altered by Blizzard to comply with ladder map pool standards.
What are the Rules?
The first TeamLiquid map contest saw an incredible number of entries. We expect a similar number of submissions this time around across both categories. As such, we are restricting the number of entries per mapper to 2 per category. This is, two 1v1 maps and two team play maps. We feel that two maps across two categories gives mappers enough incentive to seriously work on both categories, rather than just focusing on one. We also feel that four maps total gives mappers enough room to be innovative and create some really solid maps.
We suggest that you adhere to the following guidelines when creating your maps for the contest:
The contest has two categories - 1v1 and team play. Mappers can submit up to two maps to each category.
We suggest maps follow the following restrictions: 1. Normal bases are always 8 normal mineral patches and 2 normal geysers 2. High yield bases are always 6 high yield patches and 2 normal geysers 3. Don’t change values on Neutral units. For example: a. Don’t change Xel’Naga watch tower or destructible rock graphics b. Don’t change values on mineral patches, geysers, or rock health/armor values c. Don’t resize mineral patches or rocks 4. Map sizes should be sensible, use the current map pool as a guide.
You are welcome to use custom textures, but they shouldn't detract from the clarity of the map.
Maps with locked start positions are okay.
Maps which encourage the metagame to develop in interesting ways will most likely score well.
Entries are not limited to non-Koreans, Korean mappers are welcome to submit entries.
Maps which have been used in premier competition are not eligible for submission. A list of maps which this excludes can be found in the questions section.
Don't steal other peoples work and try to claim it as your own, although this should go without saying!
Any maps which are selected/considered for the final shortlists in both categories will be checked for compliance against a list of requirements set by Blizzard - any maps requiring alterations will be communicated to the mappers directly. This first round of quality checks is to ensure that, if selected, maps are able to be integrated quickly into the ladder pool unlike what happened with Ohana in the first TeamLiquid Map Contest.
Blizzard has been kind enough to contribute additional prizes to this tournament. These will be announced closer to the time.
When are the maps due?
Mappers will have until Friday, May 10 2:59pm GMT (GMT+00:00) to complete their work and PM it to TL Map Contest.
How does all of this work?
Specially appointed judges from the community and TeamLiquid staff will evaluate the entries and decide on the top maps. We aim to pick approximately 8 maps. This will vary depending on the submissions we receive.
Mappers with maps which have been selected will have approximately a week (possibly less) to make final adjustments to their maps to fix any issues.
The maps will undergo testing through use in TL Open tournaments. The details of these will be announced closer to the time. Expect something similar to the first TLMC testing process.
We will then hold a public vote and progamer vote to determine the best map. Rankings from the public and progamers will be combined to determine the top 5 maps.
We estimate that the contest will conclude anywhere between 3-4 weeks after submissions close.
How to Enter:
Please PM your map(s) files to TL Map Contest with the following format before Friday, May 10 2:59pm GMT (GMT+00:00):
Map Name: [img]a picture of your map[/img] Main to Main distance: (in game seconds using a worker from town hall to town hall) Natural to Natural distance: (in game seconds using a worker from town hall to town hall) [img]Any relevant analyzer images (optional)[/img] [url=]Your maps download link[/url]
Entries not in this format may be excluded from consideration. Please don't ask 'TL Map Contest' questions - you won't get an answer.
Questions?
If you have any questions about the contest please post them in this thread and I will do my best to answer them.
Q: I only have WoL, can I still submit maps to the contest?
Yes you can, but please keep in mind that these maps will be intended for use in HotS and thus should be HotS appropriate.
Q: I want to make an FFA map for the contest, can I do so?
Unfortunately, at this stage we are not accepting FFA maps as part of the 'team play' component of the contest.
Q: Who is judging this contest?
The judges will be announced once the submission phase of the contest concludes.
Q: How crazy can I be in my map?
Ultimately, these maps will need to be ladder appropriate i.e. need to be accessible to players of all skill levels. Things like geysers blocking ramps, which require prerequisite knowledge to be able to use, are thus not contest appropriate. Use this as a guide when deciding on what features to include on your maps.
Q: I'm interested in the contest, but I'm horrible at map making. What can I do to support the mappers?
A: Post in their map threads and give them support, encouragement and replays on their maps! Giving your favourite mapper support will be much appreciated by the mapper.
Q: What maps are excluded from submission?
Any map which has been used in GSL, GSTL, IPL, IPTL/IPL:TAC, NASL, MLG, ESL, IEM or Dream Hack tournaments or the official Blizzard ladder is not eligible. If you think your map might violate this rule please check with Plexa before submitting.
Edit: This just made my day! So many things to get done, so little time. Edit#2: Go go power mappers! (to the tune of original power rangers theme song) -- I am just that excited!
I would love to see another influx of great maps. From when I first saw Cloud Kingdom in the first 1 I knew that was the winner and over time it overtook Daybreak as the best WoL map imo.
Q: I'm interested in the contest, but I'm horrible at map making. What can I do to support the mappers?
A: Post in their map threads and give them support, encouragement and replays on their maps! Giving your favourite mapper support will be much appreciated by the mapper.
The last contest had a lot of good maps that didn't end up winning because the winning maps were so fantastic. I'm excited to see what will be made this time around, especially with another year of experience under our belt.
I am curios about "geyser blocking a ramp", does anyone have a link to a thread with a map and explanation? Nothing shows up on google and I can't imagine how it could possible work.
Are the winners getting "directly" into ladder mappool? that would be pretty cool, since last time the maps that won (f.e. cloud kingdom) were pretty good Since I missed completely the first map contest, I dunno if blizzard works/cooparate with TL, eg with this map contest Or do we have to wait again months until the good maps get into the ladder? greetings
Btw, I hope Blizz changes the way it treats Mapmakers. The fact that there contribute to prizes is a good start. Next, they should mention the map maker everywhere his map is used... Sick of seeing that some map created by the community is stamped "Blizzard map". Sounds really wrong to me...
I'll try to submit a map or two, should be fun, though I must be horrible at Mapmaking :D
On April 19 2013 03:19 opisska wrote: I am curios about "geyser blocking a ramp", does anyone have a link to a thread with a map and explanation? Nothing shows up on google and I can't imagine how it could possible work.
This sounds amazing. So happy you guys are including the team play component. Good luck everyone and happy map making! You map makers are the unsung heroes of this community.
awesome, i really hope there will be some good teammaps
but please consider one thing when making teammaps: eight 200/200 armies can lag a lot, please dont overdue it with the map. (Like District 10 on the ladder, it lags with only a few units on the map ...)
Team liquid, you are awesome! You are a team that keeps hitting it out of the park and it is cool to hang out with you Very curious towards the result. also, TSL5.
On April 19 2013 03:19 theman1213 wrote: Are the winners getting "directly" into ladder mappool? that would be pretty cool, since last time the maps that won (f.e. cloud kingdom) were pretty good Since I missed completely the first map contest, I dunno if blizzard works/cooparate with TL, eg with this map contest Or do we have to wait again months until the good maps get into the ladder? greetings
The finalists are passed on to Blizzard for consideration for ladder use. This tournament is run with the blessing of Blizzard!
Excited about this, the last contest gave rise to CK, in my opinion one of the best maps from WoL. Also while Korhol Compound was pretty short lived I did find that map incredibly fun and Ohana is the map with my highest win percentage of all time.
On April 19 2013 03:34 Ragnarork wrote: Mmh, I was wondering, is it possible to do things like using (except main and natural spots) mineral only expansions, 1-high-yield geyser, etc ?
Mineral only expansions might be permitted, I'll ask Blizzard about this because I know that one of the 3v3 maps in the pool has a mineral only gold expansion.
On April 19 2013 04:09 heyoka wrote: Excited to see what you guys can produce, the last one was so awesome.
Took the words right out of my... keyboard. No mapper myself, but before and after cloud kingdom and ohana were like night and day on the ladder. Can't wait to play games on the short list maps and vote for the one i want to ladder on
On April 19 2013 03:34 Ragnarork wrote: Mmh, I was wondering, is it possible to do things like using (except main and natural spots) mineral only expansions, 1-high-yield geyser, etc ?
Mineral only expansions might be permitted, I'll ask Blizzard about this because I know that one of the 3v3 maps in the pool has a mineral only gold expansion.
Okay thanks ! I realize that maps being reviewed by Blizz, they may not like "exotic" features...
I really wish you'd promote and encourage maps that plays out differently than the norm. Currently, almost every map plays out the same and are identical in terms of function with easily accessable expansion, slightly less accessable third and then a very long rush distance and no islands.
Say what you will about maps such as Scrap Station but at least it brought something new to the table which made for very interesting games. I would love maps that brought some fresh air, map makers and especially judges, be bold.
Thank you so much for doing this TL! The impact of the last map contest on the quality of the ladder map pool was amazing! And thanks to Blizzard of course for what they did with the results from the last TL map contest and consenting to do another. And of course thanks to all the mappers for putting in the work to build maps that are so much better than the blizzard maps
The team map pools are so god damn inexcusably atrocious they completely ruin the fun of trying to play team games with my friends in SC2... I really hope that this contest can turn that around and help me get some of my more casual friends to have a reason to keep playing this game!
This is amazing news for the community! I hope I can get an entry in for the date, just gone and got a new job so I don't know if I will have the time. I have a current map that I'm working on that is a re-imagination of a Brood War map, will this be eligible for entry?
This is awesome. Last time we got some of the best maps the game has seen, so hopefully we'll get something similar this time too! And team maps? Seeing how many flaws the current ones have I hope we get reasonable maps with secure naturals and smaller ramps.
Something to get excited about again! I wonder if Blizzard is doing this because they want to start developing team leagues as well? I made a post about it a long time ago, but it would be exciting if that could actually come to fruition
I am looking forward to seeing what kind of unique maps people can come up with using the new map objects & textures
Neat~ I wish we had these more often. The last one brought us cloud kingdom and ohana =D I just hope another Korhal doesn't make it through haha. I hated that map!
Hey, I dont have the skills or time to use map editor, but I am willing to work closely with someone who does! PM me, or email me at nickbradvica@yahoo.com if you are interested in teaming up! I have been sketching maps for fun in my free time, and I am really excited to put something together. Let me know!
Well, I've got my 1v1 maps sorted out and for the most part done, now I just need to keep getting them playtested and tweaking them up. Appears I've now got ~3 weeks or so to create some team maps. Hmm, I've never created a team map before, this could be interesting...
I'd like to see Blizzard put one or two of them in the ladder pool like they did last time. I watched the tourney for the last map contest with like Korhal Compound and those other maps. I'd be Happy to see some New maps to make the players play New styles.
On April 19 2013 07:02 Inimic wrote: Restricting bases to 8M hurts the variety. Not even Kespa is doing that crap, and we love their maps. This is weak
Yeah, this. It's only a suggestion, but imagine if a modified-resource map made it to ladder and there could be real testing on a large scale + Blizz actually take a look at some of these ideas.
On April 19 2013 07:02 Inimic wrote: Restricting bases to 8M hurts the variety. Not even Kespa is doing that crap, and we love their maps. This is weak
Yeah, this. It's only a suggestion, but imagine if a modified-resource map made it to ladder and there could be real testing on a large scale + Blizz actually take a look at some of these ideas.
Blizzard did, however, open the door even more to us though. We can now submit cross-spawn only maps, and team maps!
On April 19 2013 06:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Expecting another ESV sweep lol
Maybe, but with only three of us active, I kind of doubt this. I'm expecting a high TPW presence in the finals, as they have quite a few great and active mapmakers.
On April 19 2013 06:55 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Expecting another ESV sweep lol
Maybe, but with only three of us active, I kind of doubt this. I'm expecting a high TPW presence in the finals, as they have quite a few great and active mapmakers.
I'd like to see at least one map from each of the teams have a presence -- ESV, TPW, DF, Galaxy. Maybe Crux too if they decide to participate. Maybe I'm being too idealistic?
Would love if someone who knows what they are doing streamed/created a VOD demonstrating the basics for map making etc. If there is one I have not heard about it
On April 19 2013 07:51 Ireniicas wrote: Would love if someone who knows what they are doing streamed/created a VOD demonstrating the basics for map making etc. If there is one I have not heard about it
Please let this result in some decent 2v2 ladder maps. I've been waiting since the beta for a macro 2v2 map where each player can realistically take and hold a third base. Almost all 2v2 ladder maps so far have had bases beyond the natural very far away or open. Some don't even have a natural expansion for each player.
Great but also kinda scary. Could be that all the 3:3 maps are huge with shared bases since alot of people are clueless in 3:3. On the other hand most 2:2 and 4:4 are pretty bad so a turnaround there is always welcome.
Have been thinking about learning the editor to make a 4:4 non shared, without ramps to the main and a nat with a ~3rax wide choke. Also a big middle so kinda like hunters but everyone gets a nat. If someone with skills make that map "before" I do I'll build a shrine to your honor.
On April 19 2013 07:51 Ireniicas wrote: Would love if someone who knows what they are doing streamed/created a VOD demonstrating the basics for map making etc. If there is one I have not heard about it
Not exactly what you would call "basics" but I do a lot of interesting things that melee mapmakers do on a regular basis. Check out some of the vods that may interest you.
Really happy to see team maps in there, I might just have a crack at making a 3v3 map myself. Team ladder maps (especially 3v3 and 4v4) are really lacking imo. I wish they hadn't removed backwater complex... easily my favourite 3v3 map.
Oh sweet, team play maps! I hate how the 2v2 map pool is so stagnant. The newer maps from HotS are just too wacky. I actually preferred a lot of the older maps like Twilight Fortress, but any sensible new 2v2 maps will be great.
Thought I'd post this for anyone interested in making a map for the contest but is new to mapmaking - I thought this guy did a pretty good job of covering the basics.
Here's to the next Cloud Kingdom! I can't wait to see this year's submissions. Last year's maps were fantastic, but with another year of practice under the mapper's belts, this year's should be even better! Cheers!
On April 19 2013 03:34 Ragnarork wrote: Mmh, I was wondering, is it possible to do things like using (except main and natural spots) mineral only expansions, 1-high-yield geyser, etc ?
Mineral only expansions might be permitted, I'll ask Blizzard about this because I know that one of the 3v3 maps in the pool has a mineral only gold expansion.
I am also really wondering about high yield geysers
I mean its not like you are using the data editor for those, they are already a part of the melee dependencys
On April 19 2013 03:34 Ragnarork wrote: Mmh, I was wondering, is it possible to do things like using (except main and natural spots) mineral only expansions, 1-high-yield geyser, etc ?
Mineral only expansions might be permitted, I'll ask Blizzard about this because I know that one of the 3v3 maps in the pool has a mineral only gold expansion.
I am also really wondering about high yield geysers
I mean its not like you are using the data editor for those, they are already a part of the melee dependencys
Woot. Hope we get some good stuff out of this. I'm going to do my best get some decent stuff together and of course lose horribly, but it'll be fun to see what everyone else comes out with. :D
Thought I'd post this for anyone interested in making a map for the contest but is new to mapmaking - I thought this guy did a pretty good job of covering the basics.
Yeah this is a good thing to highlight for newbies thinking about jumping in.
time to make a sick rising larva map!! with deep freeze!
I can just imagine it already: MVP with his MMM composition out on the larva zone, then suddenly, without any notice what so ever a deep freeze hits! frozen in the larva zone, the surge timer ticks - 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 -unfreeze- MVP lifts and saves his units!!! and then MC flies in his phoenixes and cleans up the loaded medivacs.
I hope to see some interesting maps. Things like gas only expansions, expansions that have like 3 gold patches mixed in, 1 gas in main and high yield gas at nat or something would be interesting to see.
The only bad thing about this contest is that we will have a deserted custom maps forum from this point up to when the contest finishes with people focusing on the maps they intend to submit :/
On April 19 2013 13:30 chipmonklord17 wrote: I wish I actually knew what I was doing on the map editor. I have an image of a map in my head that I couldn't possibly make a reality
Go for it, it takes about 15minutes to learn everything neccesary. Just look up some youtube tutorial video
On April 19 2013 03:34 Ragnarork wrote: Mmh, I was wondering, is it possible to do things like using (except main and natural spots) mineral only expansions, 1-high-yield geyser, etc ?
Mineral only expansions might be permitted, I'll ask Blizzard about this because I know that one of the 3v3 maps in the pool has a mineral only gold expansion.
I am also really wondering about high yield geysers
I mean its not like you are using the data editor for those, they are already a part of the melee dependencys
I wouldn't try to use them, let's put it that way
Haha, well I certainly won't be trying any funny business with the team maps at least
But I am still wondering if we are even allowed to enter maps with high yield geysers at all, I do understand that weird bases will not gain us any bonus points.
I have a question about how to submit, the rules say to PM the map files, but how do you attach a file to a PM? Also, should we be submitting all our maps in one PM or separate PMs for each map? Thanks!
Can't wait last time we had alot of great maps in my opinion they should of been all in ladder pool instead of the shitty blizzard ones they had and blizz only accepted 2-3 into their pool.
---- Please could you make some light colored maps ? Those dark maps are virtually unplayable at summer time since i get a lot of sun coming to my room. I spoke to my friends and some of them have the same problem. Many Thanks. ---
Anyone is wondering where the prizes are ? If I remember right there were small prizes for the first TLMC, not big but at least something. Teamliquid opens new stores, gives away free items, Blizzard organize a tournament with the biggest prize money and they don't have anything for the maps they'll play on ?
It already looked like blatant crowd sourcing when there were small prizes but with no prize that looks very rude. I don't know the winner could at least have a guest pass.
On April 22 2013 01:31 maxpower13 wrote: This is pretty cool but i have a question. Where should we upload our maps and is it okay to release them before the contest is over?
Yes. That is fine.
On April 22 2013 01:32 chuky500 wrote: Anyone is wondering where the prizes are ? If I remember right there were small prizes for the first TLMC, not big but at least something. Teamliquid opens new stores, gives away free items, Blizzard organize a tournament with the biggest prize money and they don't have anything for the maps they'll play on ?
It already looked like blatant crowd sourcing when there were small prizes but with no prize that looks very rude. I don't know the winner could at least have a guest pass.
Blizzard haven't yet confirmed what the prizes will be, but have confirm that there are prizes. This was stated in the post.
Highly original. Should name it something very regal like idk, Star Kindgom? Nah that won't work, maybe Sky Kingdom? Nah that won't work either. Hm will have to think on this.
Highly original. Should name it something very regal like idk, Star Kindgom? Nah that won't work, maybe Sky Kingdom? Nah that won't work either. Hm will have to think on this.
Just wanted to drop by and say that I just saw the topic.
I cannot overestimate the importance of this contest. Last time, I played three new maps on ladder thanks to this initiative, and this includes my favorite map of all time (Cloud Kingdom)
Please, map makers, you are not often put to the forefront, but you can do something important! I am rooting for you!
On April 24 2013 11:21 fezvez wrote: Just wanted to drop by and say that I just saw the topic.
I cannot overestimate the importance of this contest. Last time, I played three new maps on ladder thanks to this initiative, and this includes my favorite map of all time (Cloud Kingdom)
Please, map makers, you are not often put to the forefront, but you can do something important! I am rooting for you!
Thank you, we need more people like you to be vocal about maps! I too am hoping for great new maps. :D
I guess I'll be submitting this guy since it's essentially the only map I made in a long time that respects all the rules of the contest (I like unconventional resource nodes).
Why yes, that is an island expansion that can easily be harassed from the high ground. Smallest 12 base map in the business.
Since I'm not as cool, I'll try say something on topic as well. Uhm. Like... Sadly I doubt I'll have my computer reinstalled in time to test any of the submissions before deadline. I do hope for an innovative, balanced 4v4 map though. Hmm, quick idea of that is a map where each player has a separate base, but they all funnel into the same quite close area (to keep reinforcement distances down), and the players closest to their opponents have dead-space to protect that side of their base better. Maybe, maybe not. + Show Spoiler +
I'm not being sarcastic here, Barrin really is really cool! Love for all the hard work he's done for this community.
To me the one fatal flaw of Laval Flow is that one player's main base is easily siegeable/cannon rushable from the low ground. I think the 4v4 pool could really use a better version of Lava Flow. All the shared base maps are getting pretty old to me, but the other side of the coin is that separate bases make defending hard in a gametype where defending is already extra hard.
I think it would be cool to have the ramps closer together than Lava Flow, like that drawing seems to show.
I did kind of enjoy playing some team games where one of the mains could be easily harassed like that. IDK how sustainable that is long-term or if it would ruin it for people who played tons of games and have refined strats, but the ability to create strategies revolving around blink or siege tanks or whatever, even on a 1 base situation, was pretty fun for me. Kinda sucks for the player who spawns there, though.
IDK. I think I should maybe play more team games to get an idea of how to make team maps.
On April 25 2013 20:30 SiskosGoatee wrote: I guess I'll be submitting this guy since it's essentially the only map I made in a long time that respects all the rules of the contest (I like unconventional resource nodes).
Why yes, that is an island expansion that can easily be harassed from the high ground. Smallest 12 base map in the business.
*second smallest Very good, though. I should start working on my submissions now. Edit: wait. how did you
Why'd you put the island minerals on the inside, TT. Really? Come on man at least let the islands be semi-viable. Now there's no reason to take them at all. I really can't understand all the island hate TT.
wow you did a pretty big overhaul to habitation station, it looks nice but the third is a tad bit exposed for my taste but other than that it's fine, i'll submit my maps in a couple of days more since i still have time to make them look prettier :3
On April 19 2013 14:57 LastDance wrote: time to make a sick rising larva map!! with deep freeze!
I can just imagine it already: MVP with his MMM composition out on the larva zone, then suddenly, without any notice what so ever a deep freeze hits! frozen in the larva zone, the surge timer ticks - 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 -unfreeze- MVP lifts and saves his units!!! and then MC flies in his phoenixes and cleans up the loaded medivacs.
no reason to post maps yet.. plenty of time left to polish + less likely someone has time to steal an idea from your map (if it's a good one) if you post later
Illustrates why Space Platform in BW is just better than the other tilesets, that one extra lower level to work with that is buildable.
On April 26 2013 06:39 Qwyn wrote: Why'd you put the island minerals on the inside, TT. Really? Come on man at least let the islands be semi-viable. Now there's no reason to take them at all. I really can't understand all the island hate TT.
Seemed like a more interesting thing than putting rocks there, obviously just a normal Island isn't going to work. T is just going to float a CC there. Now they can do that but get ready at stalkers or mutas and hydras hitting the lines.
Anyway, the map has 5 bases per player without the island which is okay for a map that is this short and rushy.
On April 26 2013 18:00 Fatam wrote: less likely someone has time to steal an idea from your map (if it's a good one) if you post later
Why is this a bad thing?
Oh wait, silly me, I forgot, we're not out to actually help the scene, we're out to get our maps played on the ladder and acquire fame, fast cars, money and beautiful women. Silly, silly me for for a second assuming it was about getting good maps on the ladder rather than getting our own maps on the ladder.
On April 26 2013 15:10 Ferisii wrote: Think I'll even go as far, to make my maps downloadable over battle.net!
On April 26 2013 18:00 Fatam wrote: less likely someone has time to steal an idea from your map (if it's a good one) if you post later
Why is this a bad thing?
Oh wait, silly me, I forgot, we're not out to actually help the scene, we're out to get our maps played on the ladder and acquire fame, fast cars, money and beautiful women. Silly, silly me for for a second assuming it was about getting good maps on the ladder rather than getting our own maps on the ladder.
Basic conventions of innovation: the people who put in the time and resources to develop something new deserve incentive to do so. This incentive is realized in a simple form of temporary competitive advantage, whether it's done through patent law in the real world or withholding the design details of a new map in SC2 for a competition like TLMC until sometime closer to the submission deadline. Nobody's stopping you from using those ideas the moment they're released by the original author -- something that helps the scene as a whole.
On April 26 2013 18:00 Fatam wrote: less likely someone has time to steal an idea from your map (if it's a good one) if you post later
Why is this a bad thing?
Oh wait, silly me, I forgot, we're not out to actually help the scene, we're out to get our maps played on the ladder and acquire fame, fast cars, money and beautiful women. Silly, silly me for for a second assuming it was about getting good maps on the ladder rather than getting our own maps on the ladder.
Basic conventions of innovation: the people who put in the time and resources to develop something new deserve incentive to do so. This incentive is realized in a simple form of temporary competitive advantage, whether it's done through patent law in the real world or withholding the design details of a new map in SC2 for a competition like TLMC until sometime closer to the submission deadline. Nobody's stopping you from using those ideas the moment they're released by the original author -- something that helps the scene as a whole.
Yeah again, so like I said, people perceive it as a 'reward' to get their map played on the ladder rather than simply getting a good map into the ladder.
People in the end don't care about 'helping the mapping scene', in the end they care about their maps getting exposure. Because well.. I don't know, fame, fast cars, money, beautiful women. I can get the last three even though you realistically won't get it from mapping. Why people are out to acquire fame I never got. Except that it leads to the latter three in a lot of cases, but even if it doesn't, what does it do for you to be famous?
What does it do for you if your map gets into the ladder, is it not in the end about simply getting good maps into the ladder irrespective of origin?
I mean, if someone can improve upon my idea and make a better version of my map, steal my idea, and get that version into the ladder, by all means, have at it. That is my 'incentive' to post early. It increases the chance of better maps into the pool because people will take potentially take my idea and improve upon it.
On April 26 2013 23:09 Barrin wrote: But are you arguing that Reputation and Intellectual Property (and by extension, intellectual and creative Capital) are useless concepts?
Not all. The incentive for Microsoft to make windows is to make money, they can do this via IP laws, this guarantees that windows exist (Though some people argue it shouldn't) but you get the argument.
The point is, Microsoft is a commercial corporation that creates jobs and material benefits for its employees. IP laws create a marked and they feed people.
In this case. We are not likely to earn anything even if our maps get into the ladder, all we have is fame and prestige, which when you think of it actually amounts to nothing. I can't buy bread from fame in the mapping scene. So I'm arguing that because we wil never make money anyway, we should switch our incentive not to getting our own maps played, but to get the best maps played. And in that sense, open sharing of information and ideas enhances the quality of maps.
I mean, I had a 'novel idea' in this thread. I made a map with an inbase natural that is closer to the opponent than the main ramp that can easily be harassed. Thereby shifting the focus from attacking the main ramp to harassing the natural. If you like this idea and you think you can make a better map with it. Please, by all means do so and then we will let the community decide which of both is better so that we have the highest chance of getting the map in the ladder pool which the majority of people like to play on. This should be our incentive and goal, because we cannot ever realistically make money from it. IP and trade secrets serve to create a capitalist marked to create jobs for mappers, but let's face it, this is not realistic.
On April 26 2013 23:16 Terranlover wrote: dont even start this in here guys .....
Fine, if anyone wants to reply to me, I invite them to create a new thread I suppose.
In the interest of ripping each other off. Here's a 2v2 map I'm working on now, I might submit it:
One player gets a save natural but a harassable main, the other players get a more tucked away main but an open natural. Not too sure about ovie+cannon strats though but I guess the other player can help against them.
On April 26 2013 18:00 Fatam wrote: less likely someone has time to steal an idea from your map (if it's a good one) if you post later
Why is this a bad thing?
Oh wait, silly me, I forgot, we're not out to actually help the scene, we're out to get our maps played on the ladder and acquire fame, fast cars, money and beautiful women. Silly, silly me for for a second assuming it was about getting good maps on the ladder rather than getting our own maps on the ladder.
Basic conventions of innovation: the people who put in the time and resources to develop something new deserve incentive to do so. This incentive is realized in a simple form of temporary competitive advantage, whether it's done through patent law in the real world or withholding the design details of a new map in SC2 for a competition like TLMC until sometime closer to the submission deadline. Nobody's stopping you from using those ideas the moment they're released by the original author -- something that helps the scene as a whole.
Yeah again, so like I said, people perceive it as a 'reward' to get their map played on the ladder rather than simply getting a good map into the ladder.
People in the end don't care about 'helping the mapping scene', in the end they care about their maps getting exposure. Because well.. I don't know, fame, fast cars, money, beautiful women. I can get the last three even though you realistically won't get it from mapping. Why people are out to acquire fame I never got. Except that it leads to the latter three in a lot of cases, but even if it doesn't, what does it do for you to be famous?
What does it do for you if your map gets into the ladder, is it not in the end about simply getting good maps into the ladder irrespective of origin?
I mean, if someone can improve upon my idea and make a better version of my map, steal my idea, and get that version into the ladder, by all means, have at it. That is my 'incentive' to post early. It increases the chance of better maps into the pool because people will take potentially take my idea and improve upon it.
You're basically making the assumption that a mapmaker with a new map design convention won't have a good map. If a mapmaker is submitting to TLMC, it's because they think their map is good enough for ladder -- possibly even the best of the bunch. Your argument is stupid because it assumes the two concepts are mutually exclusive. At the end of the day, what mapmakers are looking for is to build a reputation as being a good mapmaker, just as anyone wants to be recognized for their talents at the things they do. Imagine if SUPEROUMAN shared all his WIPs and design ideas for Cloud Kingdom to other mapmakers, and someone else jacked the whole concept got their map placed on ladder instead. Would have been a seriously raw deal for him, and that kind of thing is enough to stifle innovation in any market. What you're asking for is what would actually hurt scene.
I don't know why you need to be needlessly argumentative in every thread you post in, but cut it out or use an argument grounded in common sense for once.
EDIT: Oh, just saw the appeal to take any responses to PM. I shan't post about this sideshow in the thread again.
On April 25 2013 20:30 SiskosGoatee wrote: I guess I'll be submitting this guy since it's essentially the only map I made in a long time that respects all the rules of the contest (I like unconventional resource nodes).
Why yes, that is an island expansion that can easily be harassed from the high ground. Smallest 12 base map in the business.
That's not a 12 base map. O_o apparently you have over-ridden the image of your previous map, somehow. Interesting.
On April 25 2013 20:30 SiskosGoatee wrote: I guess I'll be submitting this guy since it's essentially the only map I made in a long time that respects all the rules of the contest (I like unconventional resource nodes).
Why yes, that is an island expansion that can easily be harassed from the high ground. Smallest 12 base map in the business.
That's not a 12 base map. O_o apparently you have over-ridden the image of your previous map, somehow. Interesting.
It's 1.5 day. Everything you say and do must be multiplied by 1.5. Didn't you get the memo, Templar?
On April 25 2013 20:30 SiskosGoatee wrote: I guess I'll be submitting this guy since it's essentially the only map I made in a long time that respects all the rules of the contest (I like unconventional resource nodes).
Why yes, that is an island expansion that can easily be harassed from the high ground. Smallest 12 base map in the business.
That's not a 12 base map. O_o apparently you have over-ridden the image of your previous map, somehow. Interesting.
It's 1.5 day. Everything you say and do must be multiplied by 1.5. Didn't you get the memo, Templar?
Snap it must have been lost in the mail. Fortunately I turned a 8 base map into a 12 base map for submission, lol
Gonna have to agree with Barrin here, it's pretty asinine, I had a lot of pms from other people who commented on the peculiar situation. We can't do it in this thread, we can't open a new thread, so I guess we're forbidden from discussing this topic publicly at all while it's extremely material to not only this contest but the entire mapping scene.
Having said that, the obvious cause for this disparency is that the moderators are not operating in unison. One thinks it should be a new topic, the other thinks it should stay in here.
On April 28 2013 00:34 SiskosGoatee wrote: Gonna have to agree with Barrin here, it's pretty asinine, I had a lot of pms from other people who commented on the peculiar situation. We can't do it in this thread, we can't open a new thread, so I guess we're forbidden from discussing this topic publicly at all while it's extremely material to not only this contest but the entire mapping scene.
Having said that, the obvious cause for this disparency is that the moderators are not operating in unison. One thinks it should be a new topic, the other thinks it should stay in here.
The only solution that solves everyone's problems is to create a subforum that only mapmakers can post in. On a more serious note, I think that thread should be re-opened because that is the correct way to discuss such an issue.
On April 27 2013 08:33 Plexa wrote: No we're not having this discussion in this thread. Keep it to PMs.
Lol... the other thread that Siskos kindly opened to discuss this got closed by KadaverBB who told us it never should have left this thread. And now you're telling us that it can't be here and that we should keep it to PM's? Keep it to PM's? Are you serious? The one topic that this mapmaking community really needs to talk about?
I hope you meant make another thread with a better OP.
On April 28 2013 00:34 SiskosGoatee wrote: Gonna have to agree with Barrin here, it's pretty asinine, I had a lot of pms from other people who commented on the peculiar situation. We can't do it in this thread, we can't open a new thread, so I guess we're forbidden from discussing this topic publicly at all while it's extremely material to not only this contest but the entire mapping scene.
Having said that, the obvious cause for this disparency is that the moderators are not operating in unison. One thinks it should be a new topic, the other thinks it should stay in here.
On April 28 2013 00:34 SiskosGoatee wrote: Gonna have to agree with Barrin here, it's pretty asinine, I had a lot of pms from other people who commented on the peculiar situation. We can't do it in this thread, we can't open a new thread, so I guess we're forbidden from discussing this topic publicly at all while it's extremely material to not only this contest but the entire mapping scene.
Having said that, the obvious cause for this disparency is that the moderators are not operating in unison. One thinks it should be a new topic, the other thinks it should stay in here.
The only solution that solves everyone's problems is to create a subforum that only mapmakers can post in. On a more serious note, I think that thread should be re-opened because that is the correct way to discuss such an issue.
On April 28 2013 00:34 SiskosGoatee wrote: Having said that, the obvious cause for this disparency is that the moderators are not operating in unison. One thinks it should be a new topic, the other thinks it should stay in here.
The status quo is being maintained, it's not for us to question.
If you have issues with how the forum is moderated please discuss this in Website Feedback, not this thread. Let's not derail this contest thread anymore please.
I have some team maps up my sleeves, but I'll def be submitting this 1v1 guy, once I decide how to do the aesthetics. I've literally changed tilesets 5 times and I can't decide what to do. I'm thinking Umoja now, or perhaps Aiur.
That 1v1 map looks awesome TheFish7! Super interesting paths and center, I love the options of an open third or one with a path from the main. That's a concept I've always loved but never really seen pulled off so clean, nice job.
The 'backdoor' is in an interesting position. You can warp in and blink around the rocks before taking it down easily but the entrance it leads to is so close to your primary ramp that you should be able to defend both easily.
Excuse me, but could somebody tell me what it means when it says on the PM application area Your maps download link Do you have to publish it for this? or is it in the editor?
While I'm not a fan of Guillotine, that first map looks great. It is innovative, and the base layout seems solid. The middle also has a very interesting setup. It looks to be quite an intriguing map.
A lot of the development in strategy in BW had to do with map variance and maps with little gimmicks. This includes air and hybrid maps. For whatever reason, there are zero of these maps in SC2 and blizzard totally disregarded this aspect of balance in the game.
I would really like to see a hybrid map in the map pool even if it does turn out to be horribly imbalanced, at the very least the map will just be removed from the pool, but at the most we can discover new strategies, have interesting fresh new games, and even possibly get a patch on previously unrealized potential of air units or racial timings.
There are a number of gimmicks to make hybrid maps and island maps: Mineral walls that mine out later in the game to turn into a land map. Destructible walls. Strictly island (no building outside bases) map. Plateau maps (can build outside bases after drop), and/or low ground is all connected. 3-4 start location maps that have at least 2 spots connected by ground, and the remaining being individual island. Low count mineral blocks to stop terran CC floating imbalance. (although this would have to be changed to 30+ because of orbital SCV loading) Regular land map with Island expansions.
I think the closest we had to any of this in SC2 has been Desert Oasis and Scrapyard? Those maps were terrible though /:
On April 28 2013 19:29 MarlieChurphy wrote: A lot of the development in strategy in BW had to do with map variance and maps with little gimmicks. This includes air and hybrid maps. For whatever reason, there are zero of these maps in SC2 and blizzard totally disregarded this aspect of balance in the game.
I disagree, the original Blizzard maps all had this stuff. The original Blizzard maps were very varied in terms of layout:
Desert Oasis: Short air rush distance, long by ground Scrap Station, same idea but done in a different way, back door into the natural, ground rush distance could be reduced Kulas Ravine: Inbase natural to which you had to break rocks to get to it, ledge overlooking the other natural for which you had to break rocks to reach it. Incineration/Steppes: Ridiculously short rush distance Jungle Basin: Inbase natural with backdoor rocks leading to them Blistering Sands: Backdoor into your main blocked by rocks
Sure, some of these maps were imbalanced, but by far not all, and most that were were not nearly as imbalanced as Whirlwind which has been in the GSL since forever now.
But people didn't want them. They have spoken, they wanted every map to be the same exactly because they didn't want to have to use diffferent strats on every map and play to the map, they wanted to play their 1 rax FE on every single map on the ladder.
I personally like a variety of rush and macro maps as well as maps which feature a little bit of 'broken'. The point about droppable ledges over bases and what not is that even if they are a little bit broken, they are strategically broken and imbalanced. this creates interesting and tense games where people are forced to find creative ways to deal with it, and people often found creative ways to deal with such imbalances. the thing about infestor/brood at the end of WoL was that it wasn't strategically broken, it was just broken, same with Whirldwind, Zerg doesn't need to rely on some super specific strat to make Whirlwind broken, Whirlwind is just Z favoured whatever Z does. Which doesn't create nearly as interesting emergent gameplay from T to deal with it. Because there is nothing special you can do to hardcounter that super specific strat that is op only on whirlwind like a tank drop on that ledge.
I would really like to see a hybrid map in the map pool even if it does turn out to be horribly imbalanced, at the very least the map will just be removed from the pool, but at the most we can discover new strategies, have interesting fresh new games, and even possibly get a patch on previously unrealized potential of air units or racial timings.
I concur, I'd like to see more varied maps in tournaments but simply more vetos. Say you have 9 maps but 3 vetos and you just assume that 2-3 maps are going to be ZvP imbalanced. Then every P will just veto these maps against Z but if they are still balanced in TvZ they will still be played there on in ZvZ and TvT and TvP, done deal honsetly.
In this way you can also make maps knowing that they will be imbalanced in ZvT but fine in PvT and PvZ for instance because every T will just veto them against Z. Like Whirldwind. Whirlwind is a fine map for PvT and PvZ but it's horribly imbalanced in ZvT.
On April 28 2013 10:05 TheFish7 wrote: I have some team maps up my sleeves, but I'll def be submitting this 1v1 guy, once I decide how to do the aesthetics. I've literally changed tilesets 5 times and I can't decide what to do. I'm thinking Umoja now, or perhaps Aiur.
The status quo is being maintained, it's not for us to question. Barrin hahahha aaaaaa hahhahahaahhaahahaaaaa .. how times change and revolve/resolve ... are funny = awesome fun
The possibilities are endless and we are stuck on the notion that we have to be contempt with 1 possibility, one gameplay, one status quo...? Seems ill advised to say the least .. I wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment i feel out of reading your post .. sentiment ! Personally I cry every time i see a new map on this forum .. but i cry for black fog so who cares what i think?
Questions for Plexa (that may or may not apply to other mapmakers .. so I ask here to allow him/her to answer once for all of these numerous fresh nut heads that we are):
I have a four spawn/start map to propose ... how does that fit in a 1v1 a 2v2 ..?
My map is hots functional and uploaded on eu, should I take it off?
It's my map's birthday soon.. is there a "window" of creation "allowed" or "disqualifying" for my map .. ?
How important is this Map Making Contest within the solemn halls of tl?
Am I taking too much of your time? Sorry, .. and thank you for your time.
The graphics seem to be "important" and I'm worried that I don't get what you mean about them having to be .. (come again) : "You are welcome to use custom textures, but they shouldn't detract from the clarity of the map"..?
(After whatever first selection) Are you (is anyone) going to play test maps specifically to see how they feel / interact with the gameplay...? I'm referring to lighting and light emitters (doodads) mostly... If so .. on which graph level(s) will you try them?
"Maps which encourage the metagame to develop in interesting ways will most likely score well" "The maps will undergo testing through use in TL Open tournaments" Plexa
thank you for such high standards and involvement in the mapmaking scene and have a good tl
I have a four spawn/start map to propose ... how does that fit in a 1v1 a 2v2 ..?
Your choice, tell me what you're submitting it towards
My map is hots functional and uploaded on eu, should I take it off?
No that's okay
It's my map's birthday soon.. is there a "window" of creation "allowed" or "disqualifying" for my map .. ?
No thats okay.
How important is this Map Making Contest within the solemn halls of tl?
Very Important
Am I taking too much of your time?
No it's quite alright.
The graphics seem to be "important" and I'm worried that I don't get what you mean about them having to be .. (come again) : "You are welcome to use custom textures, but they shouldn't detract from the clarity of the map"..?
i.e. custom textures which you have designed and imported into HotS
(After whatever first selection) Are you (is anyone) going to play test maps specifically to see how they feel / interact with the gameplay...? I'm referring to lighting and light emitters (doodads) mostly... If so .. on which graph level(s) will you try them?
There won't be specific tests for this until it's reached the final stages (i.e. immediately before tournament use). Testing before that will likely be done on low settings because that is what is used most.
Sorry for being confusing (it's a karma thing .. working on it for 30 years hasn't helped)
ty for express answers, ty for answers "low settings" :^D
As for my lil map .. well .. even though I might submit a second .. I don't mind really, for me it works as well in 1v1 and 2v2 .. so both (hahahahahahahha.. PR is so fun)
Going through this thread, and the recent custom map threads, I've noticed that 90 % of people have been making maps with two spawn points. Why is that? Why aren't people giving 4-spawn maps or even 3-spawn maps some love?
On April 30 2013 08:13 BrokenMirage wrote: Going through this thread, and the recent custom map threads, I've noticed that 90 % of people have been making maps with two spawn points. Why is that? Why aren't people giving 4-spawn maps or even 3-spawn maps some love?
Keep in mind that the people showing their maps so far are probably 6 out of 80 maps submitted thus far. Not everyone has shown their maps.
On April 30 2013 08:13 BrokenMirage wrote: Going through this thread, and the recent custom map threads, I've noticed that 90 % of people have been making maps with two spawn points. Why is that? Why aren't people giving 4-spawn maps or even 3-spawn maps some love?
Keep in mind that the people showing their maps so far are probably 6 out of 80 maps submitted thus far. Not everyone has shown their maps.
This.
Besides that, personally I find 2p maps are the better thing to make the vast majority of the time, because most 4p designs are flawed to where you end up having to force cross-spawn to maintain balance. In which case you could have just made it into a superior 2p layout. I'm sure many people here are familiar with this argument as there are several people who bring it up often, but thought I'd throw it out there again for anyone new. Making a really good 4p layout that allows all spawns without being imba is incredibly hard.
On April 30 2013 08:13 BrokenMirage wrote: Going through this thread, and the recent custom map threads, I've noticed that 90 % of people have been making maps with two spawn points. Why is that? Why aren't people giving 4-spawn maps or even 3-spawn maps some love?
Not all of us have started making all of their submissions yet.
On April 30 2013 08:13 BrokenMirage wrote: Going through this thread, and the recent custom map threads, I've noticed that 90 % of people have been making maps with two spawn points. Why is that? Why aren't people giving 4-spawn maps or even 3-spawn maps some love?
i cant speak for the lack of 4p maps but I can say 3p maps are ridiculously difficult to deal with using the galaxy editor.
On April 30 2013 08:13 BrokenMirage wrote: Going through this thread, and the recent custom map threads, I've noticed that 90 % of people have been making maps with two spawn points. Why is that? Why aren't people giving 4-spawn maps or even 3-spawn maps some love?
I'll submit a 4p map, the thing about 4p maps is that you can't be trully creative with them, since if you start doing funky things then the big mayority of players will think that the map should be just cross spawn, and if the map is cross spawn then what is the joke of making a 4p cross spawn in the first place since you could have made a 2p map with more features? dunno if i got my idea across, what i mean is that you can't be trully creative with a 4p map, and if you do the map will end up being huge/imbalanced towards x position and you can't have neither of those on the ladder, therebefore almost everyone is submiting 2p maps since you actually can be creative without going oversize or ending up with an imbalanced map.
Oh and i almost forgot, 3p maps are a pain in the ass, and since they can't be 100% symemtrical there will always be that guy saying that he can't wall off the way he wants coz x is in his way and then he will tell everyone else that mapmakers sux and that blizz maps are the best gift that god has given the mankind.
That long, rambling post suddenly makes sense, wow. EDIT: + Show Spoiler +
Yeah, it's definately him... he posted
... Personnaly I still cry for Black fog .. people say it only concerns "memory" issues .. it is because they can only see up to the end of their own nose ...
in the map gimmicks thread. Baskerville made a thread about black fog before he was banned.
On April 29 2013 18:13 lil emo wrote: Dear tl, here is my tlmc2 submission: Void Temple (published on eu) Pictures: Layout:+ Show Spoiler +
Data required: 4 spawn / start locations Main to main: 50 to 60 game seconds Nat to nat: 30 to 35 game seconds Angled view:+ Show Spoiler +
Features: This map features a line of sight blocker in a vortex shape and "Golds" that might be reverted them to regular)
glhf to all participants and have a good tl
edit : forgot to add published on eu
Hey, I thought I'd try your map cause I love how it looks from a top view. Sadly I think you've gone too far with the glowing feel in-game. It was quite annoying actually. If you tone it down you've got yourself a beautiful map there!
On April 29 2013 18:13 lil emo wrote: Dear tl, here is my tlmc2 submission: Void Temple (published on eu) Pictures: Layout:+ Show Spoiler +
Data required: 4 spawn / start locations Main to main: 50 to 60 game seconds Nat to nat: 30 to 35 game seconds Angled view:+ Show Spoiler +
Features: This map features a line of sight blocker in a vortex shape and "Golds" that might be reverted them to regular)
glhf to all participants and have a good tl
edit : forgot to add published on eu
Hey, I thought I'd try your map cause I love how it looks from a top view. Sadly I think you've gone too far with the glowing feel in-game. It was quite annoying actually. If you tone it down you've got yourself a beautiful map there!
Dear NVRLand: You probably are right .. It might be a bit over the edge (why I feel at home I guess) .. I'll look into it (gives me the opportunity to tinker some more and I do love to "nudge nudge wink wink old" ladies).
I shall be submitting these two for 1v1. The aesthetics may get cleaned up or detailed in the coming days. Additionally, I do have a 2v2 and a 3v3 map created for submission, but neither are decorated at this point. I'll gladly share them once they look nice.
I know we need to 'uphold the balance' and all, but I would really like to see maps that have a completely different main / natural layout than what we have seen so far. In most the maps I see, the author is being as original as possible with the rest of the map, but the main and natural look (from an amateur standpoint atleast) always pretty much the same (with some variation here and there, but overall pretty conventional).
I secretly hope that one day we can have a map that is completely different from its predecessors in that regard, and still works out balance wise. I think we had a few attempts in WoL, but I would really love to see all stops pulled in HotS. In any case, while maps obviously need to work out balance wise, my vote would probably go to those who bring something really original and refreshing to the table.
Also, how do mapmakers feel about a map with no dead space? I believe I saw a thread about this recently, and I was wondering what would happen if we had more space near the sides to intercept drops with ground-to-air, and more space to do battle over side expansions.
I appreciate what you guys are doing here, and it's a great initiative. I hope some good maps come out of this.
Specially appointed judges from the community and TeamLiquid staff
Does this mean that the judges will be appointed by the community/TLstaff, or that the judges will be chosen from among them? I assumed the former because the latter seemed redundant, but perhaps I was mistaken.
Da rka con Superouman DeeTee MavercK Arrrr bitter ProdiG Lurk her Barrin Sci ens vesil Monitor crack ling Wheat toohigh temp Koagel or a cle iGrok Fire bat Siskosgoatee med hic Fatam ... euhhh... shall I go on?
Map Name: Abyssal Crater Cross position only Main to Main distance: 1:03 Natural to Natural distance: 0:44 + Show Spoiler [pathing] +
download link Experimentation with a circled midle to make counter attacks more viable, also includes multiple choices as 3rd with pocket expansions or expanding to a nearby natural.
Main to Main distance (p1 to p3): 0:43 Main to Main distance (p1 to p4): 0:50 Main to Main distance (p2 to p3): 0:48 Natural to Natural distance (far to far): 0:40 Natural to Natural distance (far to close): 0:32 Natural to Natural distance (close to close): 0:24
Main to Main distance (p1 to p3): 0:52 Main to Main distance (p1 to p4): 1:04 Main to Main distance (p2 to p3): 0:50 Natural to Natural distance (p1 to p3): 50 Natural to Natural distance (p1 to p4): 50 Natural to Natural distance (p2 to p3): 46
Most beautiful map i have ever seen and I love the layout. Even if I didn't play the game, it makes me think of Deus ex human revolution. Eager to see this map win and get in the ladder!
My 1v1 Submission Traffic in Harmony Now available on NA servers. Release thread with some modifications will be made after the TLMC. (map looks bad from full map view because of its size. Look at it on NA for a better look.)
If you say so there are 8 starting locations .. if I had to (I'm lazy and my server is on maintenance .. lol got to publish on na to get to measure main to main ssss) .. I will go force spawns .. but who says 2v2s and other have to spawn close to one another ... mmmm should go add to gimmick thread.. mmm remember to taunt Torte .. and remember to floss ... mmm ... aaaa yes tweet ProdiG about how the sheer number of eye candy he s missing is astounding!!!
edit : do you think 2v2s should spawn close eVerY time ..? I'd add a poll but ... mmmm. let someone else do it... :^p
On May 08 2013 08:03 DilemaH wrote: My 1v1 Submission Traffic in Harmony Now available on NA servers. Release thread with some modifications will be made after the TLMC. (map looks bad from full map view because of its size. Look at it on NA for a better look.)
Don't worry .. your map seems cool and will only be judged from ingame people's feeling of the resulting ambiance you created ... on low settings
edit: how many is that ? (showcased not submitted of course) 50
Terranlover Superouman (mapmaker's lore reference incorporated) SiskosGoatee Duvon SidianTheBard Ferisii DestroSC2 Terranlover SiskosGoatee TheFish7 SiskosGoatee lil emo iGrok (mapmaker's lore reference incorporated) Big J TechSc2 IronManSC maltenp Elche Uvantak IeZaeL Coppermantis googlypoo Adonminus Meltage Terranlover Coppermantis Samro225am Coppermantis eTcetRa 19Meavis93 RFDaemoniac MarcusRife Dark Lord lil emo DilemaH ScorpSCII Sloke [ So.. were there any submitted maps that didn't get tlmc2 thread showcased? I count 56 .. not bad is it? Wonder if the vote turn out will be high? Glhf to all participants (judges/mapmakers/players/viewers .. I compiled it so that everyone can wonder.. plus prodiG is a lazy bass tour rrrd (joke))
Duuude, that's alot of maps i feel kind of bad for those testers that have to play them all, it will take them eons to do so lol, but for they will play on some really good maps too, so it's a mixed feeling :b
@lilo emo ProdiG won't be participating!?? i would like to play one of his maps on the ladder :p and will superhuman submit his tlmc maps at all?
I was told there were around 170 maps submitted in TLMC1, and you're only counting 56 here? Think about the maps that haven't been revealed yet. Then again, in TLMC1 we were able to submit 3 maps for 1v1 instead of 2.
Here are the two maps i will submit. The first one is already pretty old, the second one i started about a week ago and i'm still polishing and testing it. + Show Spoiler +
Well, I already posted my two 1v1 maps earlier in the thread but I'm going to post the top downs & some close-ups of them as well since now I'm completely done with them. All bugs, doodads & textures are completed. I've also sat down and created a 4v4 map, which is the first team map I've ever done and I think it turned out quite well. So, enjoy!
Terranlover Superouman (mapmaker's lore reference incorporated) SiskosGoatee Duvon SidianTheBard Ferisii DestroSC2 Terranlover SiskosGoatee TheFish7 SiskosGoatee lil emo iGrok (mapmaker's lore reference incorporated) Big J TechSc2 IronManSC maltenp Elche Uvantak IeZaeL Coppermantis googlypoo Adonminus Meltage Terranlover Coppermantis Samro225am Coppermantis eTcetRa 19Meavis93 RFDaemoniac MarcusRife Dark Lord lil emo DilemaH ScorpSCII Sloke Yonnua spinnaker SidianTheBard Shiger a176 lorestarcraft FlyingBeer Thank you to all viewers of this awesome opportunity to get a decent ladder going... do please THINK about how to best get the word out / around and about .. in ANYway you can.. + Show Spoiler +
On May 09 2013 01:15 Uvantak wrote: Duuude, that's alot of maps i feel kind of bad for those testers that have to play them all, it will take them eons to do so lol, but for they will play on some really good maps too, so it's a mixed feeling :b
@lilo emo ProdiG won't be participating!?? i would like to play one of his maps on the ladder :p and will superhuman submit his tlmc maps at all?
I never said that .. I said he's lazy that he didn't come through Sisko/Barrin awe sum discussion .. to see all the maps and get the urge to submit one in time .. ; this is why I compiled really ..
Well.. to be brutally honest.. was hoping for more comments on the maps from everyone
.. was hoping for mapmakers to be hyper active pr (for the contest as a whole, obviously not for one's map ..)
.. and I was almost wishing that our lil subforum would blow up somehow (in a good way )
.. like .. how about getting a lil tl liquibet about the contest going ????
.. or
get all the "pop" stream shows to rant about it
(me spam wheat's numerous chats and qxc's catz 's and msspyte's streams respectfully / regularly.. who do u spam?)
Heres my two 1v1 maps I have submitted! I wanted to work on a 2v2 map but I couldn't get a product I liked in time, and don't know if I will by tomorrow (or whenver the contest ends in my timezone)
Never really been an active contributor to forums, mostly the reading part. Decided to throw my hat in the race tho so here are my two contestants. DC.Glacier Keep and DC.Matmos
Nothing like a little competition to spur creativity!
DC.Glacier Keep Size: 144x144 Bases: 12 Rush distance main to main: 60-ish
DC.Matmos Cross-spawns only Size: 144x144 Bases: 12 Rush distance main to main: 50-ish
On May 10 2013 00:51 DanceCommand wrote: Never really been an active contributor to forums, mostly the reading part. Decided to throw my hat in the race tho so here are my two contestants. DC.Glacier Keep and DC.Matmos
Nothing like a little competition to spur creativity!
DC.Glacier Keep Size: 144x144 Bases: 12 Rush distance main to main: 60-ish
DC.Matmos Cross-spawns only Size: 144x144 Bases: 12 Rush distance main to main: 50-ish
edit: Playable on EU server.
I love the aesthetics on Matmos (Except for maybe the hex tiles), I'll probably try something in a similar style for my next map.
Unfortunately it looks like I'm not going to be able to enter since I have way too much work and not enough time to complete my map's aesthetics to a point I'm happy with (that and the fact that I refuse to stick to 8m2g bases lol), but here's the mostly-finished map I would have entered:
On May 10 2013 06:26 -NegativeZero- wrote: Unfortunately it looks like I'm not going to be able to enter since I have way too much work and not enough time to complete my map's aesthetics to a point I'm happy with (that and the fact that I refuse to stick to 8m2g bases lol), but here's the mostly-finished map I would have entered:
On May 10 2013 06:26 -NegativeZero- wrote: Unfortunately it looks like I'm not going to be able to enter since I have way too much work and not enough time to complete my map's aesthetics to a point I'm happy with (that and the fact that I refuse to stick to 8m2g bases lol), but here's the mostly-finished map I would have entered:
--- On this map I hate how the preview cannot generate an even remotely close image to the lighting effects of the map, the map is not even orange ingame.
Fallen Stars is my own favorite of my latest maps. As I did 3 different 1v1 scenarios were I decided fuck it its gonna be balanced trough asymmetric not trough symmetric like 99% of the other maps.
I really think it will give the players a completely other feel to the team game, furthermore I hope that even some hardcore pro players might enjoy playing it in possible team games.
Well, i have finished my maps, i was saying it for the other mappers out there :p But for the other side i think i still could do a 2 player map in ~11 hrs....
Lots of awesome maps with unique mains: TheFish7's in-base natural with a partial wall-off from the main Terranlover's low-ground main and interesting attack paths on his desert map Icetoad's partial rock-blocked main ramp with in-base natural
Almost forgot to post my submissions in here! I only submitted a couple of 1v1s, because I couldn't complete a 2v2 I'd feel comfortable submitting by the deadline. I feel as though a decent 2v2 map is incredibly different in concept from creating a 1v1.
While I have kind of retired(kind of meaning I am sure I will be back someday) and no longer part of TPW, Stormborn was released as a TPW map and therefor still tagged as TPW.
I had a couple other maps that were almost done that I wanted to submit but I havent touched the editor for a few months now and dont want to submit anything that aint 100% complete so this is my only submission.
While I have kind of retired(kind of meaning I am sure I will be back someday) and no longer part of TPW, Stormborn was released as a TPW map and therefor still tagged as TPW.
I had a couple other maps that were almost done that I wanted to submit but I havent touched the editor for a few months now and dont want to submit anything that aint 100% complete so this is my only submission.
I'm so happy to see something from the map jams submitted. Makes me want to run another one.
On May 10 2013 17:26 Duvon wrote: "Friday, May 10 4:59pm CEST (GMT+02:00)" Isn't CEST = GMT+1 ? Anyway, that is 6 hours and 30 minutes away. Whoop whoop yeah!
Central European Summer Time (CEST) is GMT+2. Central European Time (CET) is GMT+1.
The former is the daylight savings equivalent of the latter. Most of Europe switches from CET to CEST on the last Sunday in March and then back to CET on the last Sunday in October.
Thanks for the submissions guys! We're currently undergoing the (massive) task of organising maps and getting them sent to the judges. For this season the judges are Liquid`TLO, WW.Morrow, monk and Ragoo!
On May 11 2013 02:18 Plexa wrote: Thanks for the submissions guys! We're currently undergoing the (massive) task of organising maps and getting them sent to the judges. For this season the judges are Liquid`TLO, WW.Morrow, monk and Ragoo!
Have the judges submitted their bribe suggestions yet?
On May 11 2013 02:18 Plexa wrote: Thanks for the submissions guys! We're currently undergoing the (massive) task of organising maps and getting them sent to the judges. For this season the judges are Liquid`TLO, WW.Morrow, monk and Ragoo!
Have the judges submitted their bribe suggestions yet?
edit:
"Making a mass-appealing game in this way isn't like making great food, it's like putting nicotine in the food" a wise man
Mhmm guys? I have a question? It is currently 5/10/13 EST but the time stamp on the post claim that it is currently 5/11 Will my submission be recieved?
On May 11 2013 06:20 BoxedCube wrote: Mhmm guys? I have a question? It is currently 5/10/13 EST but the time stamp on the post claim that it is currently 5/11 Will my submission be recieved?
Unfortunately no, unless one of the admins of TLMC wants to secretly take it. The submission deadline was given a month ago. There was plenty of time to submit.
On May 11 2013 06:20 BoxedCube wrote: Mhmm guys? I have a question? It is currently 5/10/13 EST but the time stamp on the post claim that it is currently 5/11 Will my submission be recieved?
Unfortunately no, unless one of the admins of TLMC wants to secretly take it. The submission deadline was given a month ago. There was plenty of time to submit.
Actually yes his submissions should be received.. TL post time stamps are set to Korea. The OP designated 7:59 AM PDT on the 10th. If you post at that time, it'll say the 11th, but that doesn't matter. I believe he submitted in time.
On May 11 2013 06:20 BoxedCube wrote: Mhmm guys? I have a question? It is currently 5/10/13 EST but the time stamp on the post claim that it is currently 5/11 Will my submission be recieved?
Unfortunately no, unless one of the admins of TLMC wants to secretly take it. The submission deadline was given a month ago. There was plenty of time to submit.
Actually yes his submissions should be received.. TL post time stamps are set to Korea. The OP designated 7:59 AM PDT on the 10th. If you post at that time, it'll say the 11th, but that doesn't matter. I believe he submitted in time.
Thanks for the response. I can just hope that they will accept it : )
Many thanks to Qancakes (creator of the Arcade Map Kobold Tribes) for doing the aesthetics!!!
I feel that HOTS units/gameplay makes this map even better than it was as a WOL map without any further addition to the map itself, hence it's submission with only an aesthetic update.
On May 11 2013 06:20 BoxedCube wrote: Mhmm guys? I have a question? It is currently 5/10/13 EST but the time stamp on the post claim that it is currently 5/11 Will my submission be recieved?
Unfortunately no, unless one of the admins of TLMC wants to secretly take it. The submission deadline was given a month ago. There was plenty of time to submit.
Actually yes his submissions should be received.. TL post time stamps are set to Korea. The OP designated 7:59 AM PDT on the 10th. If you post at that time, it'll say the 11th, but that doesn't matter. I believe he submitted in time.
It's technically late, but since I haven't processed all the maps yet I'll accept it.
On May 11 2013 11:50 Incubus1993 wrote: So will there be like a list they're releasing with the best maps for each category or something? If so when and where will that be? Thanks.
Yes there will be a shortlist of maps from each category. It may take a while, there are over 100 maps submitted for the 1v1 competition.
On May 11 2013 11:50 Incubus1993 wrote: So will there be like a list they're releasing with the best maps for each category or something? If so when and where will that be? Thanks.
Yes there will be a shortlist of maps from each category. It may take a while, there are over 100 maps submitted for the 1v1 competition.
So is a while hours or is a while months? Not to be insensitive but I'm just so hyped to see some awesome maps.
On May 11 2013 06:20 BoxedCube wrote: Mhmm guys? I have a question? It is currently 5/10/13 EST but the time stamp on the post claim that it is currently 5/11 Will my submission be recieved?
Unfortunately no, unless one of the admins of TLMC wants to secretly take it. The submission deadline was given a month ago. There was plenty of time to submit.
Actually yes his submissions should be received.. TL post time stamps are set to Korea. The OP designated 7:59 AM PDT on the 10th. If you post at that time, it'll say the 11th, but that doesn't matter. I believe he submitted in time.
It's technically late, but since I haven't processed all the maps yet I'll accept it.
On May 11 2013 11:50 Incubus1993 wrote: So will there be like a list they're releasing with the best maps for each category or something? If so when and where will that be? Thanks.
Yes there will be a shortlist of maps from each category. It may take a while, there are over 100 maps submitted for the 1v1 competition.
Man so excited to watch some new maps make it. Didn't finish mine but there's always next time. And I would be happy with a lot of these winning, so much goodness. glhf everyone. ^^
I don't envy the judges, it will be hard to pick the short lists with so much good quality stuff and so many layouts just slightly out of the ordinary.
Yeah, what a feast. Even if everybody removes all the maps that they personally see have flaws, that's still a ton of maps to choose from. When I look through emo's roll, I just want to NOM NOM NOM.
But this is good news, no matter what we'll get some sweet maps picked as winners. Just having this many sweet maps is already win. And I'm really happy to see all the new mappers submit. Foreigner mapping goin' strong!
Now on to getting the players and viewers exited about these maps.
Linking to a compiled post was done to facilitate pr for everyone interested in tlmc2. To anyone reading .. please do not think that "you" will not do/achieve anything (because no one will listen, because it's friday and the banks close soon, because you're the worst marketing stooge ever, because bla bala bla..) .. MAN UP and tell your friends, link in chat channels .. in dog channels.. share the prophecy during games .. during s x .. whatever it takes!!
Get the word out .. we have 2 weeks to rally tl in its entirety (and the rest of the world too) .. to get our ladder back from blizz (in a few years, if we start acting NOW)
I really do feel sorry for the judges. So many maps, many of which are very good. Considering even the ones which haven't been shown on this thread, it's going to take ages to test and judge them all.
About the maps, I'm a tad scared about the team maps, many maps have some really good layouts, but they lack some kickass texturing and theme, and that makes me think that we don't end up seeing them on the ladder even if they are good maps :/
Specially appointed judges from the community and TeamLiquid staff
Does this mean that the judges will be appointed by the community/TLstaff, or that the judges will be chosen from among them? I assumed the former because the latter seemed redundant, but perhaps I was mistaken.
The latter.
I was hoping for less redundancy and more transparency tbh.
(1) Who chooses the judges? (2) Will you describe the intended process for eliminating/choosing the maps?
Perhaps some of us might come up with an idea or two to make the process better.
i very much hope judges are already looking at the maps. you should know better than asking now to change the process?!
On May 14 2013 21:03 Barrin wrote: I'm not asking to change the process for I do not yet have enough information to form an opinion.
Nor would I want any changed to be made simply because I asked for them. Ideas should be judged on their own merits.
what i am saying is that whatever the process is besides what is stated in the OP should not be subject of change or even discussion while the process is already running. Maybe you want to start a thread about how to judge maps? that would actually be a first aid solution
Will the judges' comments/scores be made available for maps that don't win? I'd also be interested in seeing the comments be made publicly available. They'd make a nice learning tool.
On May 15 2013 04:21 RFDaemoniac wrote: Will the judges' comments/scores be made available for maps that don't win? I'd also be interested in seeing the comments be made publicly available. They'd make a nice learning tool.
Just making the comments on the top 10 maps or so public would be cool
On May 15 2013 04:21 RFDaemoniac wrote: Will the judges' comments/scores be made available for maps that don't win? I'd also be interested in seeing the comments be made publicly available. They'd make a nice learning tool.
Just making the comments on the top 10 maps or so public would be cool
Even organizer decided early in the private discussion that he doesn't plan on naming these "top 10 maps or so". Insisting that he did and elaborating on why he should (peer-review validity; educational posterity) is partly why I don't have access anymore, I think.
Can you think of a reason other than brevity (what a small reason) why a competition wouldn't want to reveal runner-up's?
I assume it's to minimize uproar in case people don't agree with the placings.
On May 15 2013 04:21 RFDaemoniac wrote: Will the judges' comments/scores be made available for maps that don't win? I'd also be interested in seeing the comments be made publicly available. They'd make a nice learning tool.
Just making the comments on the top 10 maps or so public would be cool
Even organizer decided early in the private discussion that he doesn't plan on naming these "top 10 maps or so". Insisting that he did and elaborating on why he should (peer-review validity; educational posterity) is partly why I don't have access anymore, I think.
Can you think of a reason other than brevity (what a small reason) why a competition wouldn't want to reveal runner-up's?
I assume it's to minimize uproar in case people don't agree with the placings.
Out of all the maps submitted, making the top 10 would be really cool for maps and mapmakers. If you were 4th, it would suck if they only showed the top 3 maps. hmm.... I guess we will just have to see what actually happens.
Yeah for sure it's nice to recognize the people who did good but didn't quite win.
Maybe I'm a little confused on how it works, so someone can clarify, but doesn't the public help determine the winner via voting? How are they going to hide the top 10 if the public has to vote on the top 10 lol
I remember that when I used to play trackmania and we had mapping contests, there would sometimes be over 100 maps, but each judge would still be recommended to comment on each one. If detailed results were posted for TLMC2, that would be fantastic, I'm sure plenty of people want to learn what they can improve on and what they could do better.
Then again, I'm pretty sure this has been said a couple posts above me. About the uproar incident, there is always that no matter what, I believe that as long as any results are displayed, there will be uproar. However, the judges are good, and I think most people will trust them.
On May 15 2013 07:25 Redrot wrote: I remember that when I used to play trackmania and we had mapping contests, there would sometimes be over 100 maps, but each judge would still be recommended to comment on each one. If detailed results were posted for TLMC2, that would be fantastic, I'm sure plenty of people want to learn what they can improve on and what they could do better.
It's simply impossible for me as a judge to write a useful comment on every single map. 70% of the maps I just dismiss for no other reason than generally bad execution/layout or because it's boring and don't write down any specific reasons.
That said, if after the competition ends someone wants to know why his map didn't make it, write me a PM and I will try to give you some meaningful lines of feedback.
I suppose it is a lot of work. Then again, during the trackmania map contests, there was also a numerical grading scale they released, and that was how everything was graded, where here, I don't think a numerical grading scale is used. (not like im the judge though...)
While it might be disappointing to see nothing when you expect something, and might give people a reason to rage, I am completely okay seeing "this map is just bad" or "no comment" on maps that aren't good. What I'm more interested is the maps that were pretty good but not quite. This is where the learning opportunity is, imo.
On May 15 2013 04:21 RFDaemoniac wrote: Will the judges' comments/scores be made available for maps that don't win? I'd also be interested in seeing the comments be made publicly available. They'd make a nice learning tool.
Just making the comments on the top 10 maps or so public would be cool
Even organizer decided early in the private discussion that he doesn't plan on naming these "top 10 maps or so". Insisting that he did and elaborating on why he should (peer-review validity; educational posterity) is partly why I don't have access anymore, I think.
Can you think of a reason other than brevity (what a small reason) why a competition wouldn't want to reveal runner-up's?
I assume it's to minimize uproar in case people don't agree with the placings.
Is that really what would happen though?
I believe both lefix and samro were arguing against me with the stance that people (specifically a good map's maker) would definitely complain if they don't agree with the placings, and that I shouldn't worry about it now because IF there is to be a problem then they will complain at least as much then.
Wait, are you saying lefix and samro, both of whom I believed entered into the contest, were involved in private discussions about how the contest would be run?
On May 15 2013 04:21 RFDaemoniac wrote: Will the judges' comments/scores be made available for maps that don't win? I'd also be interested in seeing the comments be made publicly available. They'd make a nice learning tool.
Just making the comments on the top 10 maps or so public would be cool
Even organizer decided early in the private discussion that he doesn't plan on naming these "top 10 maps or so". Insisting that he did and elaborating on why he should (peer-review validity; educational posterity) is partly why I don't have access anymore, I think.
Can you think of a reason other than brevity (what a small reason) why a competition wouldn't want to reveal runner-up's?
I assume it's to minimize uproar in case people don't agree with the placings.
Is that really what would happen though?
I believe both lefix and samro were arguing against me with the stance that people (specifically a good map's maker) would definitely complain if they don't agree with the placings, and that I shouldn't worry about it now because IF there is to be a problem then they will complain at least as much then.
Wait, are you saying lefix and samro, both of whom I believed entered into the contest, were involved in private discussions about how the contest would be run?
Yes, feedback from mappers (such as lefix and samro) was taken into consideration when planning the tournament. This is a tournament aiming to promote mappers and mapping and I believe the people who know best about this are the mappers themselves. The discussion Barrin is referencing took place in the days leading up to the announcement.
On May 15 2013 07:25 Redrot wrote: I remember that when I used to play trackmania and we had mapping contests, there would sometimes be over 100 maps, but each judge would still be recommended to comment on each one. If detailed results were posted for TLMC2, that would be fantastic, I'm sure plenty of people want to learn what they can improve on and what they could do better.
Then again, I'm pretty sure this has been said a couple posts above me. About the uproar incident, there is always that no matter what, I believe that as long as any results are displayed, there will be uproar. However, the judges are good, and I think most people will trust them.
As great as it would be to give feedback on every map entered, it's simply not practical. We have progamers judging this contest who are involved in tournaments - TLO in particular was playing his WCS group A games last night. It is unrealistic to expect that feedback on every map can be provided by them within a reasonable time frame. As such I won't make any promises to the level of feedback provided after the contest results are announced, it is possible that some of the judges want to give more feedback though.
On May 15 2013 04:21 RFDaemoniac wrote: Will the judges' comments/scores be made available for maps that don't win? I'd also be interested in seeing the comments be made publicly available. They'd make a nice learning tool.
Just making the comments on the top 10 maps or so public would be cool
Even organizer decided early in the private discussion that he doesn't plan on naming these "top 10 maps or so". Insisting that he did and elaborating on why he should (peer-review validity; educational posterity) is partly why I don't have access anymore, I think.
Can you think of a reason other than brevity (what a small reason) why a competition wouldn't want to reveal runner-up's?
I assume it's to minimize uproar in case people don't agree with the placings.
Is that really what would happen though?
I believe both lefix and samro were arguing against me with the stance that people (specifically a good map's maker) would definitely complain if they don't agree with the placings, and that I shouldn't worry about it now because IF there is to be a problem then they will complain at least as much then.
Wait, are you saying lefix and samro, both of whom I believed entered into the contest, were involved in private discussions about how the contest would be run?
Yes, feedback from mappers (such as lefix and samro) was taken into consideration when planning the tournament. This is a tournament aiming to promote mappers and mapping and I believe the people who know best about this are the mappers themselves. The discussion Barrin is referencing took place in the days leading up to the announcement.
No you see, it is a conspiracy! Samro and lefix rigged the contest so they are allowed to enter!!!\
On the topic of map feedback/honorable mentions:
I always appreciate it when judges post their thoughts on maps, even if I'm not submitting or I lost the competition. In past MotMs I have tried to post my thoughts. Nightmarjoo did a fantastic job giving feedback. So for TLMC, of course I would love feedback from the judges. On the flip side, we can't demand them to post everything because they likely didn't write anything down for most maps. It takes forever to make writeups that are intelligent haha... Any that the judges can provide, however, would be greatly appreciated. And if there are maps that scored well, aka honorable mentions, I think telling the public would be cool.
On May 15 2013 08:41 RFDaemoniac wrote: ... What I'm more interested is the maps that were pretty good but not quite. This is where the learning opportunity is, imo.
Exactly; we're not just trying to highlight the best maps now, we're also trying to help make future maps become better. Well, me at least. Comparing/contrasting the maps that didn't *quite* make it (there's usually a bunch of these) to the maps that did make it (and then again to whatever map(s) you made) is indeed one of the best opportunities for a learning exercise. And then discussing them is a good way to gain other's perspectives and to know where the general consensus lies on certain things.
If enough people are interested in this we can create a thread and do it ourselves. Post our maps that didn't quite make it and we can discuss them. Barrin, if you feel this strongly about it you can take the initiative yourself. As stated earlier giving good feedback is a lot of work. I find that getting people to give good feedback is hard. I don't think that you can place the blame on TLMC for not providing feedback. It is really a failing of the community. I'm not saying the reasons for which are not legitimate, we have other things in life that require our time.
I think it would be a good idea to give all the maps some sort of evaluation. It would definitely help everyone out who just started mapping and needs to improve and it would provide some nice constructive criticism.
Even if it isn't practical to have that much reviewing if the judges and/or peer mappers made the effort it would go a really long way in improving the quality of maps.
On May 15 2013 08:41 RFDaemoniac wrote: ... What I'm more interested is the maps that were pretty good but not quite. This is where the learning opportunity is, imo.
Exactly; we're not just trying to highlight the best maps now, we're also trying to help make future maps become better. Well, me at least. Comparing/contrasting the maps that didn't *quite* make it (there's usually a bunch of these) to the maps that did make it (and then again to whatever map(s) you made) is indeed one of the best opportunities for a learning exercise. And then discussing them is a good way to gain other's perspectives and to know where the general consensus lies on certain things.
If enough people are interested in this we can create a thread and do it ourselves. Post our maps that didn't quite make it and we can discuss them. Barrin, if you feel this strongly about it you can take the initiative yourself.
I'm not participating in this competition, mostly just trying to be of service as a disinterested third party. But I'm way ahead of you anyway. During MotM I gave a bunch of feedback on dozens of maps that didn't quite make it on multiple months that I judged and I responded to dozens of people asking about their didn't-quite-make-it maps. Even when I wasn't judging I threw in a list of predictions with explanations at least once. Leading up to the last TLMC [not judge] I gave a bunch of feedback on maps to be entered (only a dozen or so this time), and I made an extensive write-up on each of the winners. I've taken my share of initiative already! And of course I have other things to care about. But yes giving feedback on significant maps entered into this competition is on my list fwiw.
On May 16 2013 10:44 Incubus1993 wrote: I think it would be a good idea to give all the maps some sort of evaluation. It would definitely help everyone out who just started mapping and needs to improve and it would provide some nice constructive criticism.
Even if it isn't practical to have that much reviewing if the judges and/or peer mappers made the effort it would go a really long way in improving the quality of maps.
qft
Honestly, while I agree with the spirit of the request for feedback, it's unreasonable for an event like this. First, as already mentioned, the volume of maps to provide comments on is huge, and some (or all) of the judges couldn't possibly give useful feedback for every map. Second, a lot of the mappers that stand to benefit most from judge feedback are new mappers. This contest might be the first time they've publicly showcased a map. What's the best thing for new mappers to do? Make more maps. Hearing about why their first map is bad... is just one item out of a huge list of things they need to learn more about, that that particular map didn't evince. We all went through this.
People with passion will persevere even without good feedback. I wish we could support everyone to stoke that passion, but you can't ask others to do it on your behalf.
Moreover, what is a few people's map feedback worth? I mean I like TLO and ragoo and respect their knowledge, but is their opinion worth more than anyone else here who could give good feedback? Their position as judges is really only relevant insofar as they could tell you what a shortlist map had that yours didn't, which nonjudges could not illuminate as well perhaps.
If people want feedback on their maps, ... oh wait that's all of us all the time. XD
There's people here discussing maps here 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. How much more learning opportunity does one really need? To me TLMC2 is rather an opportunity to show what you have learned in all that time. Also, noone outside the mapmaking community really cares about the 10th+ placed maps, no matter how well they were made. The first 1-2 maps may or may not go places, the others will be forgotten in less than a week.
TLDR; I am fine with TLMC not being mapmaking school, but a place to promote the very best maps.
On May 16 2013 15:12 lefix wrote: There's people here discussing maps here 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. How much more learning opportunity does one really need? To me TLMC2 is rather an opportunity to show what you have learned in all that time. Also, noone outside the mapmaking community really cares about the 10th+ placed maps, no matter how well they were made. The first 1-2 maps may or may not go places, the others will be forgotten in less than a week.
TLDR; I am fine with TLMC not being mapmaking school, but a place to promote the very best maps.
On May 16 2013 15:12 lefix wrote: There's people here discussing maps here 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. How much more learning opportunity does one really need? To me TLMC2 is rather an opportunity to show what you have learned in all that time. Also, noone outside the mapmaking community really cares about the 10th+ placed maps, no matter how well they were made. The first 1-2 maps may or may not go places, the others will be forgotten in less than a week.
TLDR; I am fine with TLMC not being mapmaking school, but a place to promote the very best maps.
I have to agree with this completely. If the goal is improving one's skill and knowledge of SC2 mapmaking, there are plenty of resources in TL alone that are readily available to new mapmakers. Probably the biggest one of these is the Work In Progress Melee Maps thread, where people can post screenshots of their map WIPs and get feedback from plenty of people, including those who are in map teams. Beyond that, we have events like Map Jam & Challenge for people to jump in on and get involved in the mapmaking community. So on and so forth. (EDIT: Can't forget the mother of all resource threads, the Mapper's Index.)
I don't see TLMC's role as being a feedback resource for novice mapmakers, nor do I see why it should be.
Nobody that comments in the custom map section really knows what they're talking about... which is why hearing thoughts from TLO, Morrow, and Monk would be nice.
On May 17 2013 06:30 monitor wrote: Nobody that comments in the custom map section really knows what they're talking about... which is why hearing thoughts from TLO, Morrow, and Monk would be nice.
I disagree. I'm a masters player and have a good understanding of the game. Lots of map makers, especially the really good ones are high level. Quote what one person said, because most mapmakers are smart.
On May 17 2013 06:30 monitor wrote: Nobody that comments in the custom map section really knows what they're talking about... which is why hearing thoughts from TLO, Morrow, and Monk would be nice.
I disagree. I'm a masters player and have a good understanding of the game. Lots of map makers, especially the really good ones are high level. Quote what one person said, because most mapmakers are smart.
I would agree with this if we're talking about standard maps, or map ideas we have seen in the past and know have worked. You don't really need a TLO, Morrow, or Monk to say if such a map will play well initially. As I think most masters and diamond level players could say such. As far as long term go, pros might have a better understanding, but quite frankly play testing is what's really needed to show such.
Now, if we're talking something experimental such and mineral blocks, low ground mains, etc ....then yeah I'd like to hear from TLO, Morrow, or Monk for the initial state of the map.
Though, would like to say that no matter what kind of map, I'd rather have pros judge than random masters players for a variety of reasons.
There's two things going on here that need to be unpacked to understand whether feedback from pros is desirable. The first is the purpose of the feedback and whether it is actionable. If you get feedback that says "this map is broken" then you can either abandon the map or try to fix it. If you're going to try and adjust your map, then "this map is broken" is feedback only by the slimmest of margins. You need to know what is broken, why, and how it could be fixed.
The second is whether or not the "why", if an explanation is provided, is anything more than what happens to be the case right now in the current metagame and skill level. Some things are just not that simple and this is that mystery area where a map has to be taken on faith despite apparent flaws.
What I'm getting at is one person's opinion can rarely do all of that. Playtesting demonstrates problems with maps but you are always left with the void of "how can I make this work?" In that department, mapmakers are generally the most reliable person to turn to, because they spend so much time playing with map ideas. That doesn't mean they'll deliver an answer every time that works, or that others couldn't have come up with a good answer. It just means on the whole they're useful at what they do -- make maps. The best case I can think of is designers working in close communication with players (pros) to identify problems and craft adjustments leveraging the best attributes of both parties: facility with design options and depth of experience with potential designs. I doubt the communication required to make such an arrangement useful is possible unless it involves people already predisposed to understand each other unusually well.
Anyway, any and all feedback is always good because you can never get enough. Feedback from someone like Morrow who plays at a very high level and who also dabbles in mapmaking would be particularly interesting, because I imagine it would be a bridge between the two halves of map analysis, the hypothetical and the experiential.
And again, much of this is way beyond the kind of tips that would help newer mapmakers with good ideas that have holes. Or rather, you don't need an elite source of feedback to guide learning. The best thing for that is discussion. The only way to build better understanding is over time with lots of input.
It's simply muchhhh more of a crapshoot than a lot of people want to admit, IMO.
Pros are hardly ever right when predicting anything SC2-related, whether it be how the metagame will evolve (lol at how often they are wrong about this) or how a map will play. For maps, history has shown us that the only times anyone (pro, mapper, or amateur player) can predict something reliably is when it involves incredibly simple map features.. such as a lot of people knowing ahead-of-time that Metropolis would be turtle-friendly.
Once you introduce more complex map features, it's actually anyone's guess and the only way to really know is through playtesting.
The problem then - there's currently many more complex maps/map features that need to be tested vs. the amount of people willing to test.
Fatam is right about a lot of this. It's very easy to differentiate between 'bad' and 'good' maps, and then 'good' and 'excellent' maps but actually choosing between the excellent maps to determine the Top X often comes down to personal preference more than anything else. There were some very good maps which were not chosen by the judges because they didn't like the concept behind the map more than the concepts of the maps they chose. There's no amazing feedback here, it's just better luck next time.
As for learning to improve from good to excellent, well you don't need progamers to advise you on those things
These are my predictions for the top maps: TPW Rocky Waste ESV Insidious DF Yeonsu Crux Frost TPW Proving Grounds TPW Osiris ESV Phoenix Cluster TPW Phantasm Habitation Station
On May 20 2013 18:13 Timmay wrote: These are my predictions for the top maps: TPW Rocky Waste ESV Insidious DF Yeonsu Crux Frost TPW Proving Grounds TPW Osiris ESV Phoenix Cluster TPW Phantasm Habitation Station
4/9
Also, after the results are announced, I'll be glad to give comments to anyone who PMs me. I was very happy with the maps that were eventually picked, but there were also quite a few that were very close.
On May 20 2013 18:13 Timmay wrote: These are my predictions for the top maps: TPW Rocky Waste ESV Insidious DF Yeonsu Crux Frost TPW Proving Grounds TPW Osiris ESV Phoenix Cluster TPW Phantasm Habitation Station
I hope Rocky Waste and Frost are in the winning lot.
I'm going to delay feedback for a while. I got like 15 requests and I've been trying to answer them somewhat in-depth so I've only gotten through the first 8 or so. I'm focusing on more time-pressed matters atm such feedback on changes to the finalist maps before the first TLOpen, articles and a variety of other things. I promise to get everyone who PM'd me eventually.
On May 17 2013 06:30 monitor wrote: Nobody that comments in the custom map section really knows what they're talking about... which is why hearing thoughts from TLO, Morrow, and Monk would be nice.
Wait, you just commented in the map making section ...
EPT
Let's do it!
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