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On April 27 2013 01:09 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2013 23:19 SiskosGoatee wrote:
... The incentive for Microsoft to make windows is to make money ... And the incentive for Mapmakers is to acquire a positive Reputation through Fame and Prestige which in turn equals Influence. BTW Bill Gates is quite a philanthropist, I have a hard time believing he wants money only for himself. I also have a hard time believing he never wanted fame and prestige. Money is not the only incentive. He doesn't, but like I said, microsoft making money in turn generates employment and thus furthers the greater good. Mappers getting fame does not, even if you assume fame as a material goal, in the end it doesn't further the greater good, only yourself.
Fame and Prestige is more than nothing. Many people throughout history (and especially recently) who have all the bread they need spend/spent a lot of time and money and other resources in exchange for Fame and Prestige and thus Influence.
Trust. Money can't buy trust. Fame and Prestige on the other hand - people are constantly willing to let experts do the thinking for them and then proceed TRUST their decisions. Fame and Prestige are much more effective at this than any currency/commodity.
And why do you as an expert want people to trust you? Again, money, to get a better job.
Everything points towards money because in the end it's the most liquid good on this planet, it can be converted to pretty much everything.
And I would argue that if I was starving I bet I could get some generous SC players to donate me some bread (surely some would do it anyway, but I'm sure my mapmaking contributions would convince a few more). Indeed, if you were, but again, this comes down to money. The point is that there may be theoretical cases where fame brings you money, but in practice it doesn't. And I have the feeling people want to achieve fame as a thing on their own, many people just 'want to be famous'. I guess it's related to wanting attention. I don't know why but many people like the idea that people are talking about them or something. It just makes me paranoid but whatever.
A noble goal and I want to reiterate that this is also one of my goals.
But is this your only goal? Should the making community be slaves to the playing community, foregoing all of their own desires in favor of the others'?
The needs of the many...
I'm not saying people 'should' do anything, I'm more alluding to hypocrisy. People claim they want to help the 'mapping scene', but I'm sceptical. I think more than anything, people want to achieve fame and have their map played on the ladder. A selfish goal in the end packages into something more noble and calling it 'helping the mapping scene'. It's like GOMTV and many more companies do, they call it 'supporting esports', but let's face it, it's actually 'support our business'.
Perhaps another noble goal would be to satisfy mapmakers in the process. I submit that urging/expecting mapmakers to forego their desire for Fame/Prestige/Influence is a morally unacceptable method of achieving the goal of getting the best maps played. Well, I enjoy making maps. As it happens I like my own maps of course. So yeah, I wouldn't mind if my maps were on the ladder but if Blizz demanded that my real name become public the deal'd be off. Hell, if Blizz demanded my TL username'd become public I'd register under a new one. But the bottom line is that I enjoy making maps as a creative effort so I'm already getting what I want. And truth be told, I'm selfish enough to say that I enjoy making maps more than 'helping the scene'. If I could choose between this contest suddenly collapsing or me never touching the editor again. I'd choose the former.
Of course it does. What do you think I was doing for the majority of my time mapmaking? I wasn't actually making very many maps... I was spending a great deal of time acquiring, understanding, and then teaching information for the express goal of enhancing the quality of everyone's maps.
Indeed it does, but still, many maps are published as locked and people were in fact encouraged to keep their progress secret. As a mathematician by background I can't understand this, exact science is complete open source. 'If I had seen further, it was because I could stand upon the shoulders of the giants.', every result is built upon the things that went before it.
I acquired all the fame/prestige/influence I could ask for... except for the fact that I wasn't really marketing maps anymore. My knowledge/experience with SC2 mapmaking is genuine, but if you looked close at me it did look a little silly that I wasn't using it to create quality maps. It wasn't that I couldn't (think what you want), but why didn't I?
Because open sharing of information and ideas becomes extremely tedious with something as complex as SC2 mapmaking and as few people working on it as the mapmaking community. (And btw I had banling responsibilities too so gimme a break - I guess I did get a break if I didn't already take [another] one haha). You don't need to actively write articles, but it has come to the point that people take active steps towards secrecy. Publishing as locked on purpose so people can't open up their maps in the editor and see how they've done things, it's not too much to ask to publish as locked.
If you understand the raw simplicity / lack of comprehensiveness of the idea you proposed (if you bother saying whether or not you do you're missing the point) then you will start to see why this 'open sharing of information and ideas' in the context of SC2 mapmaking is extremely tedious, difficult to fully explain and understand, and therefore non-conducive to efficient communication. If time spent is a measure of confidence in the value of open sharing of information and ideas, then nobody values it more than me (all the way back to my first map thread cataloging way more than it should).. and I doubt anyone knows better than me how incredibly inefficient it is. As I said, I wasn't talking about writing articles. I was talking about the fact that people publish their maps as locked or are afraid to post their work in progress lest someone 'steals' their idea.
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This is clearly a continued conversation, but I'm just going to post as if this were the starting point.
As much as I would like my map played on ladder, I would be happier if we had rotation of well produced maps than if we played my map forever.
I publish every map as open and if anybody ever wants to use one of my maps as a base, you need only ask.
Bullshit that I'm not willing to support the map making scene. Just like almost anything that I want to change, I don't really care if it's me that does it or somebody else, as long as it gets done.
EDIT: that being said, people deserve credit for the work that they do.
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On April 27 2013 03:18 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 01:27 SiskosGoatee wrote:On April 27 2013 01:09 Barrin wrote:On April 26 2013 23:19 SiskosGoatee wrote:
... The incentive for Microsoft to make windows is to make money ... And the incentive for Mapmakers is to acquire a positive Reputation through Fame and Prestige which in turn equals Influence. BTW Bill Gates is quite a philanthropist, I have a hard time believing he wants money only for himself. I also have a hard time believing he never wanted fame and prestige. Money is not the only incentive. He doesn't, but like I said, microsoft making money in turn generates employment and thus furthers the greater good. “Oh, I thought you were trying to build a canal. If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels.” - Milton Friedman This doesn't create jobs, a job is someone performing a worthwhile service that benefits the community and that person benefiting his or herself by being compensated, thereby producing a flourishing society.
Digging canals with a spoon rather than a shovel doesn't perform a worthwhile job. In the end the person who pays for the canal is way worse of than that person could be.
It's giving people money, but it's not creating jobs.
To put it as simply as possible:
Money = fluid currency that helps us get what we want
Goods and Services = ***WHAT WE ACTUALLY WANT***
Money = means
Goods and Services = GOAL It never ends, in the end goods are also converted to things. It just happens that money is itself a good, and a highly liquid one at that. Ultimately a car + fuel is still converted to transportation.
Fame/reputation/prestige is a goal of mapmakers... and producing good maps is the means (often and hopefully simultaneously a goal).
Yap, and I'm asking why? What does fame and prestge do for you? Like I said, I don't get it. In fact, I can sooner understand not wanting to be under the scrutiny of the entire SC2 community, they're known to whichhunt.
Good maps are the goods and creation of these maps is the service (encouraging quality and plenty of these is a goal of the players). It is, but like I said, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. People say they are out to help the mapping scene, improve map rotation, increase variety of play. Majority of people are actually just out to become famous.
Not saying that you can't be out for that, but at least be honest, including to yourself.
Fame/reputation/prestige, while indeed non-transferable, is still a payment that mapmakers hope to receive. And don't put words in my mouth, I never implied fame is a material goal. You would do well to separate physics from metaphysics. I never said you did, I said we could assume it for sake of argument.
Not sure why you felt the need to hide my emphasis on what the point the post you're quoting was supposed to be making - probably had something to do with the lame rebuttal. Since you failed to acknowledge my emphasis, I am compelled to re-emphasize it by only replying to this part until you come up with a real rebuttal. This is the point of the post you're quoting - dodging it the way you seem to be makes it seem like you're arguing for the sake of argument: THere's nothing to say to it, it's a summation of the rest. You can agree or disagree with it, nothing more.
So we should all forgo our desire for fame/prestige/influence... just because... SiskosGoatee would?
Like I said three times, no one should do anything, I don't believe in shoulds, I'm just pointing out that people aren't entirely truthful when they say they are out to help the mapping scene, they are out to achieve fame primarily.
And like I said before too, I'm not per se out to help the mapping 'scene', all I want is more variety in ladder maps because I'm getting exhausted from all the daybreak clones.
Actually I don't like how you completely cut off the last few paragraphs of the post you're quoting, probably because they were making you look bad. Here's the full/unedited quote
What's to argue with it? It's not an argument, it's a personal opinion, either I agree or disagree with it. Not much to say to it. It doesn't have the form ' ... therefore ...'.
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Fame and prestige in an extension of your map being accepted and successful.
You say you like to create maps regardless of whether or not they are used by players. That's fine, but that's not the point here. Go to something even more basic than that. You just want to create a good map.
Its the difference between creating a bad map and being highly criticized for it, or creating a good map and being praised for it. That singular feeling of praise leads to many different outcomes, but to this discussion, if your high quality work leads to you getting noticed by others, how is that in any way "your fault" for the fame?
What, are you going to create maps in secret, never tell anyone about them, or never post them, so you won't be labelled a hypocrite?
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On April 27 2013 04:02 a176 wrote:
Fame and prestige in an extension of your map being accepted and successful.
You say you like to create maps regardless of whether or not they are used by players. That's fine, but that's not the point here. Go to something even more basic than that. You just want to create a good map.
Its the difference between creating a bad map and being highly criticized for it, or creating a good map and being praised for it. That singular feeling of praise leads to many different outcomes, but to this discussion, if your high quality work leads to you getting noticed by others, how is that in any way "your fault" for the fame?
What, are you going to create maps in secret, never tell anyone about them, or never post them, so you won't be labelled a hypocrite? Nice and all, but again, that's tangental to my point. Like I said, I'm just saying, people say they are out to improve the 'mapping scene' while let's face it, most of them just want to be famous and don't care about the scene. But saying 'I want to help the scene' comes of better so they say that instead.
I want to help the scene as a means, not as an end, my end is that I'm getting tired of all the maps having the exact same main/nat/third setups. If all the new maps into the ladder pool again feature that they might as well keep the old maps as far as I'm concerned.
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Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish?
Why is this even a thread?
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I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money, as those don't really exist in the scene. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it.
With that said, I really don't understand what is being argued here. You guys seem to be going off topic about various things and arguing about subjective topics. Doesn't make much sense. As a result, I don't really see a purpose for a thread. This seems more worthy as a discussion over PM or Skype.
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On April 27 2013 04:10 a176 wrote:
Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish?
Why is this even a thread? To not ruin the other thread the discussion was ported from.
On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote:
I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it.
I disagree, if this was the case people would not keep their projects secret to enhance their chances of winning the TLMC by saveguarding against people 'stealing' their ideas. People would also not publish maps as locked if this was the case. All pointing to people not wanting others to run with their ideas. Which was the original thing this discussion started from.
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Sisko you are a being an absolute jerk. Yes, mappers all have a "me myself and I" internal motive, as do you and everyone else in this world. Everyone is selfish; fact. However that does not mean that every word we say, and every map we design is utilized from that motive and is exclusively for that purpose. I complain about map exposure and blizzard being silent to us because I want the community as a whole to get the spotlight and get productive, but somehow that means "focus only on me?" At least that's how you make it sound.
We make maps for fun. I map stream for fun (even though I see promise in it because i'm the only one that does it). If you feel so harshly toward the map community then you shouldn't be a part of it.
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Map makers should get paid. I imagine the people that create the trash maps that Blizzard releases get paid. I could be wrong.
However, the market won't pay because people will just use free maps whenever possible, and there are plenty of map makers content to work without getting paid.
I will say that when I made maps in custom maps in WC3, I started because I wanted to play a certain game and set out to make said game. But as it grew I enjoyed the fame and success and that pushed me to work more on it. Obviously, would have loved to make it into something that provided money but of course it never did. However, what DOTA spawned did.
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On April 27 2013 04:15 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 04:10 a176 wrote:
Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish?
Why is this even a thread? To not ruin the other thread the discussion was ported from. Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote:
I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it. I disagree, if this was the case people would not keep their projects secret to enhance their chances of winning the TLMC by saveguarding against people 'stealing' their ideas. People would also not publish maps as locked if this was the case. All pointing to people not wanting others to run with their ideas. Which was the original thing this discussion started from.
That literally makes zero sense. TLMC is a competition, and keeping secrets is a means of being competitive. Secondly, the reason people lock their maps is entirely subjective. You cannot be certain as to why people lock their maps. Maybe they do it for "fame" or maybe they do it for reasons you are unaware of. You cannot state for fact that you know why people lock their maps. For example, I lock my maps to have control over my work. Thus, if some tournament wants to change my map, such as putting on a logo in the middle or changing the loading screen, they have to come to me first to see if I agree with those changes. The last thing I want is my work to be representing something I do not agree with. Now, if some mapmaker wants the map file to measure distances, understand proportions, or what not...that's fine, I don't care. I'll gladly send it to them, and I've done that several times in the past. But you know what? That's just me having the preference to have control over my work.
Once again, mapmakers make maps for fun. There is literally ZERO other reason. This scene has no money, and very little fame. What fame there is, is entirely meaningless aside the fun factor of being famous. Thus going back to the point of Mapmaking is for fun.
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Hmm, since my small comment in the other thread seems to be the one that started this cacophony, I'll try to explain fully.
I love mapmaking and it is fun to do even when my stuff doesn't get played or even when players/other mapmakers give it bad reviews. However, it is MORE fun when people like it, and when it ends up getting played and paid attention to. This is because it's always nice to be respected by a community and/or by your peers. It is nice when you are recognized for a skill you may possess, rather than it being something that no one knows/cares about. So the TLDR is that people like to be recognized for their work/merits (even if it is a hobby). And a lot of people are competitive too (almost forgot to mention this), esp. people who used to be involved in sports a lot. This can make things more intense/fun.
As for the reason to keep my 1v1 maps under wraps until closer to the end, it's mainly because my aesthetics aren't @ the top tier of mapmakers quite yet (I've gotten a lot better, and I'm probably better than most now, but there are a good # that are still better than me), so if someone else just takes an idea from one of my maps (granted it's somewhat unlikely, but you never know) and puts better aesthetics on it, why should I win? :-P
So basically it's - do you want some fun, or do you want even more fun (due to the competitive aspect) + recognition for what your'e doing?
A good example is that it's probably more fun for someone whose hobby is golf to play with some buddies, that way it's competitive and they can enjoy / brag / taunt about awesome shots or terrible shots. Rather than playing alone and no one knows that you made that amazing chip shot from the sand. Comes back to us being a gregarious race I guess.
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You guys gimme shit all the time "Diamond why don't you post on TL maps forum anymore"
This. Shit. Is. Why.
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Barrin already declared the obvious winning point before this thread was made:
It is here that reputation becomes more than a personal goal for mapmakers but also a potentially useful (albeit potentially harmful) mechanism for maximizing the chances of getting the best maps to be played and the best ideas to be spread.
And then RFD sang exactly the mapper ethos I follow and (in the current scene) would expect of everyone else:
As much as I would like my map played on ladder, I would be happier if we had rotation of well produced maps than if we played my map forever.
I publish every map as open and if anybody ever wants to use one of my maps as a base, you need only ask.
Bullshit that I'm not willing to support the map making scene. Just like almost anything that I want to change, I don't really care if it's me that does it or somebody else, as long as it gets done.
EDIT: that being said, people deserve credit for the work that they do.
And bronzeknee is right on.
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On April 27 2013 04:26 IronManSC wrote:
Sisko you are a being an absolute jerk. Yes, mappers all have a "me myself and I" internal motive, as do you and everyone else in this world. Everyone is selfish; fact. However that does not mean that every word we say, and every map we design is utilized from that motive and is exclusively for that purpose. I complain about map exposure and blizzard being silent to us because I want the community as a whole to get the spotlight and get productive, but somehow that means "focus only on me?" At least that's how you make it sound. No, but like I said, it's being dishonest to others and to yourself. People say left and right they want to help grow the 'mapping scene' but in the end, I don't think people care anything about the mapping scene. They care about their own maps getting exposure and very little more and the mapping scene is nothing but a catalyst.
If you publish your maps as locked you are hurting the mapping scene, for what? For your own personal pride that someone might rip your map off or modify it? Who cares if MLG modifies metropolis without notifying the original artist? Is the original metropolis destroyed because of this? No, then what is it? The personal pride of LS being harmed by this or whatever?
We make maps for fun. I map stream for fun (even though I see promise in it because i'm the only one that does it). If you feel so harshly toward the map community then you shouldn't be a part of it. I'm not in my perspective. I make maps. If that makes me part of 'the community' so be it. I've always spoken about the mapping community as 'they', not 'us', I do not consider myself part of any 'community'.
On April 27 2013 04:27 BronzeKnee wrote:
Map makers should get paid. I imagine the people that create the trash maps that Blizzard releases get paid. I could be wrong. So why doesn't Blizzard fire those guys then and hires superouman or someone from Crux?
On April 27 2013 04:35 Timetwister22 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 04:15 SiskosGoatee wrote:On April 27 2013 04:10 a176 wrote:
Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish?
Why is this even a thread? To not ruin the other thread the discussion was ported from. On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote:
I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it. I disagree, if this was the case people would not keep their projects secret to enhance their chances of winning the TLMC by saveguarding against people 'stealing' their ideas. People would also not publish maps as locked if this was the case. All pointing to people not wanting others to run with their ideas. Which was the original thing this discussion started from. That literally makes zero sense. TLMC is a competition, and keeping secrets is a means of being competitive. Bingo, and that people think that winning a competition with no reward but fame is more important than actually getting good maps in the ladder is exactly my point. You just succinctly phrased it.
You cannot state for fact that you know why people lock their maps. For example, I lock my maps to have control over my work. Thus, if some tournament wants to change my map, such as putting on a logo in the middle or changing the loading screen, they have to come to me first to see if I agree with those changes. Same difference, it's exactly what I'm talking about, the fact that you even want control rather than let people modify your work and improve upon it is beyond me. If MLG thinks your map is better with a small modification like some rocks? Why should they not be able to do that if they think it can enhance the quality of their tournament? Why do you want that control? The original does not get destroyed if someone makes a modification, this isn't a painting.
The last thing I want is my work to be representing something I do not agree with. Now, if some mapmaker wants the map file to measure distances, understand proportions, or what not...that's fine, I don't care. I'll gladly send it to them, and I've done that several times in the past. But you know what? That's just me having the preference to have control over my work. And that's exactly what I'm talking about, you wanting control over your work hurts the scene, the scene benefits if everyone can modify your work how they see fit. But hey, personal pride > the scene.
Once again, mapmakers make maps for fun. There is literally ZERO other reason. This scene has no money, and very little fame. What fame there is, is entirely meaningless aside the fun factor of being famous. Thus going back to the point of Mapmaking is for fun. Of course it's for fun, that's what I'm saying, but people come up with more pleasant reasons like that they want to innovate map pools and create more varied map pool, which is just largely not true. They want to innovate map pools with their own maps, that's the instrumental part. The map has to be their own first and foremost, that's the single most important thing for most people. (not all). They'd rather see a map they made themselves in the pool than an even better map made by others.
The fact that people around here even have 'ids' as a method to build reputation exemplifies this. If I could publish maps anonymously on b.net I would. I don't like that people here can spy on my laddering habits simply because of the maps I make but hey, Battle.net 2.0 isn't big on privacy. That people even need to link artist names to maps is beyond me. The point is that the map exists, not who made it, and if the person who made it is yourself.
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Wanting control over something makes perfect sense if you think you understand it better than people modifying it, which you probably do since you have been thinking about it more than they have (necessarily). Worthwhile debate about intentions vs interchangeable equivalent properties in here, but still.
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On April 27 2013 06:18 EatThePath wrote:
Wanting control over something makes perfect sense if you think you understand it better than people modifying it, which you probably do since you have been thinking about it more than they have (necessarily). Worthwhile debate about intentions vs interchangeable equivalent properties in here, but still. This argument would apply if the original gets destroyed by modifying it. This isn't a painting, this is the digital age. The original map is not destroyed.
Wanting others to not improve upon your work in their own subjective view is nothing but arrogance and being unable to swallow the idea that others like your work in a different way.
There mere fact that you defend this exactly my point. Personal ego > nurturing the mapping scene.
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It doesn't get destroyed but it doesn't make sense to have two very similar things competing for attention, be realistic. If you could have map A and map B vs map A1 and map A2 for choices of possible ladder additions, obviously it's in everyone's best interests to have A and B. My point is that the creator of A1 understands what A1 is meant to contribute to the game, and if someone makes A2 and snipes a portion of the support for A1, confusing the issue, it weakens the contribution.
Of course you can make arguments like "if A2 is better it should deserve to take over". But on the timescale of, for example, a map competition, it just makes it harder for both similar maps. It's much better for a map to be presented -- if others draw inspiration from that and go on to make a map that borrows ideas from a prior map, it can become a new entity with a much better shot of contributing than competing with its predecessor.
This is really about iteration and the creative process and respect of other individuals' thought processes.
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On April 27 2013 06:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 06:18 EatThePath wrote:
Wanting control over something makes perfect sense if you think you understand it better than people modifying it, which you probably do since you have been thinking about it more than they have (necessarily). Worthwhile debate about intentions vs interchangeable equivalent properties in here, but still. This argument would apply if the original gets destroyed by modifying it. This isn't a painting, this is the digital age. The original map is not destroyed. Wanting others to not improve upon your work in their own subjective view is nothing but arrogance and being unable to swallow the idea that others like your work in a different way. There mere fact that you defend this exactly my point. Personal ego > nurturing the mapping scene.
Tell that to LS Prime and MLG.
Just because other people can work on it will not make it better. Some maps are just perfect the way the mapper made it, look at Cloud Kingdom.
Assuming you or the community can improve every map ever is just a silly concept and in my opinions shows more of an ego on your side.
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EPT
