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KingCorwin
United States134 Posts
On April 28 2013 14:58 Fatam wrote: Shall we go into Starcraft 2 General and make a thread entitled "Starcraft 2 Players and the Capitalist Market of Fame and Money" ? I don't know man, this thread already gave me cancer. I'm not sure I could handle cancer AND aids... | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On April 28 2013 11:08 SiskosGoatee wrote: No, you're not, you're trying to get your maps played. Hell, most people in this thread even admit this with a 'no shit sherlock' affix to it. No, you're not, you're trying to get your maps played. First of all, you're stating this as fact, and I'm curious as to what research you've done to back this up. Second, this implies every mapmaker ever is wholly and completely selfish. Take a look at our impoverished circumstances and remember that being selfish in times like this destroys the entire scene, which in turn destroys the one being selfish, given time. It's an idiotic conclusion that assumes everyone you're talking about is just as idiotic. What you're saying here is technically true, but you ignore that it's only part of the story. Your lying by omission puts a tainted light on the rest of us. Hell, most people in this thread even admit this with a 'no shit sherlock' affix to it. You and words coming out of other people's mouths, you don't get along. I would like to echo: On April 27 2013 04:10 a176 wrote: Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish? Why is this even a thread? On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote: I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money, as those don't really exist in the scene. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it. With that said, I really don't understand what is being argued here. You guys seem to be going off topic about various things and arguing about subjective topics. Doesn't make much sense. As a result, I don't really see a purpose for a thread. This seems more worthy as a discussion over PM or Skype. Overall Siskos, your conclusion seems to be that we don't give a shit about the mapmaking scene. You're full of shit. This is an art, to keep going we need inspiration, or every map becomes the same boring thing, or worse, no new maps come out at all. If I was the only mapmaker left, I'd probably quit. Then again, you probably have no idea what I'm on about here. After all, art and craft are not things you can affix laws to, like with math and science. It's probably difficult. | ||
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SidianTheBard
United States2474 Posts
On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote: I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it. I agree with this. On April 27 2013 04:15 SiskosGoatee wrote: I disagree, if this was the case people would not keep their projects secret to enhance their chances of winning the TLMC by saveguarding against people 'stealing' their ideas. People would also not publish maps as locked if this was the case. All pointing to people not wanting others to run with their ideas. Which was the original thing this discussion started from. I'd assume more people aren't posting maps early for TLMC because they have until a certain date to fix shit up on the map. Only reason I showed my two maps off was because I've been tweaking them for the past month now and I feel they are done. I could easily go back and do some more aesthetic work on either of the maps but I think they are good enough. Just because people are holding off til the last few days to submit doesn't mean they want to hide their ideas. Also about locked maps. I'm sure if you actually PM'd the mapper asking for their map file they would probably more then likely give it to you. edit. I will agree with Siskos and say that every mapper better want their map to be played. You don't submit your stuff to TLMC#2 hoping to come in 2nd. That's just stupid. I make maps to win and to win in map making is to get them played. I'll still give feedback to other mappers and share my thoughts, but you're god damn right that I'm hoping I kick your ass in that mapping tournament. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On April 28 2013 11:08 SiskosGoatee wrote: I doubt it works that way. For instance. Blizzard lost out to Icefrog on Dota, even though it was made with the WC3 editor, Blizz doesn't own the rights to Dota, Icefrog does who sold it to Valve now I assume. They even have the name to it. Stuff like this was tried before like manufacturers of typewriters saying that they owned everything written on the typewriter. It just doesn't hold up in court in general. The manufacturer of a tool you use to be create can't just claim the rights even if it's in the EULA. But hey, IANAL. And this is why stuff like this is handled by Lawers. You are wrong on at least 3 points. For one Blizzard vs Valve was a trademark case. This is even more complex than IP. IANAL either but from what i do know is that it is alot easier to take a trademark and alot easier to lose it. WarZ for example had a trademark until the scandal which they then lost because it infringed on the Trademark of not only DayZ but also World WarZ. Second, Blizzard didn't lose the case. It was settled outside court, and while the settlement largely was in Valves favor it doesn't mean Blizzard didn't have a case to defend their claim on the trademark. They were a little late on the mark through because they actually took up a trademark case that another Dota dev had made. But they were getting shitton of bad PR from it and had little to gain from it. So the aggrement seems reasonable. However you can't really use a case that ended in a settlement as a example. And finally, gaming engines are not typewriters! Before you even think about the possibility to take the rights of your maps away from Blizzard, try asking Silicon knights how well screwing over their gameengine makers went for them... http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/11/09/silicon-knights-ordered-to-destroy-unsold-unreal-engine-3-games We are talking full game developers here, their own arts, own sound, presumingly alot of original game mechanics. Nothing mattered because they decided they wanted to screw with Epic games, the makers of their game engine. They lost.... HARD. And now all their IP with the Unreal engine is to be destroyed and Epic must approve all their futher games to make sure that the IP of Epic games is not infringed. So really, the only way you are ever going to get any rights over your maps is if Blizzard volunterely gives them to you. But that feature is not coming any time soon(TM). | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On April 28 2013 14:32 FlyingBeer wrote: Hey hey hey hey. Don't be callin' me an objectivist now dawg. That's the most ridiculous stuff ever. The colour perception thought experiment alone invalidates 80% of that stuff.just because his philosophical beliefs seem to mirror Ayn Rand's more than August Comte's. On April 28 2013 18:11 Sumadin wrote: And this is why stuff like this is handled by Lawers. You are wrong on at least 3 points. For one Blizzard vs Valve was a trademark case. This is even more complex than IP. IANAL either but from what i do know is that it is alot easier to take a trademark and alot easier to lose it. WarZ for example had a trademark until the scandal which they then lost because it infringed on the Trademark of not only DayZ but also World WarZ. Second, Blizzard didn't lose the case. It was settled outside court, and while the settlement largely was in Valves favor it doesn't mean Blizzard didn't have a case to defend their claim on the trademark. They were a little late on the mark through because they actually took up a trademark case that another Dota dev had made. But they were getting shitton of bad PR from it and had little to gain from it. So the aggrement seems reasonable. However you can't really use a case that ended in a settlement as a example. And finally, gaming engines are not typewriters! Before you even think about the possibility to take the rights of your maps away from Blizzard, try asking Silicon knights how well screwing over their gameengine makers went for them... http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/11/09/silicon-knights-ordered-to-destroy-unsold-unreal-engine-3-games We are talking full game developers here, their own arts, own sound, presumingly alot of original game mechanics. Nothing mattered because they decided they wanted to screw with Epic games, the makers of their game engine. They lost.... HARD. And now all their IP with the Unreal engine is to be destroyed and Epic must approve all their futher games to make sure that the IP of Epic games is not infringed. So really, the only way you are ever going to get any rights over your maps is if Blizzard volunterely gives them to you. But that feature is not coming any time soon(TM). The point is that if the EULA was to be interpreted llterally Icefrog didn't even have a right to the name Dota. Apart fro the Unreal engine game, they didn't licence the engine, that's entirely different. That's copyright enfringement. The issue here is if Blizzard can claim IP over your creative worok just because it was made in the editor. An analogue case would be if Epic could just claim copyright over all those assets because it was made in the unreal engine and start selling that game themselves, which they can't. You need permission from both IP holders to do that, Epic for use of the Engine, Silicon Knights for the assets and creative ideas. | ||
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Sumadin
Denmark588 Posts
On April 28 2013 20:36 SiskosGoatee wrote: The point is that if the EULA was to be interpreted llterally Icefrog didn't even have a right to the name Dota. Apart fro the Unreal engine game, they didn't licence the engine, that's entirely different. That's copyright enfringement. The issue here is if Blizzard can claim IP over your creative worok just because it was made in the editor. An analogue case would be if Epic could just claim copyright over all those assets because it was made in the unreal engine and start selling that game themselves, which they can't. You need permission from both IP holders to do that, Epic for use of the Engine, Silicon Knights for the assets and creative ideas. Well he probably didn't. He wasn't the only creator and the EULA is quite clear. If Blizzard had been out from the start to lay siege to the claim, then Valve would have had little choice but to rebrand the name. Valve have clearly been stepping carefully. Nerubian Weaver for example had to get renamed. Another thing i have heard is that Dota 2 is treated fully as the one and only name of the game. The term "Defense of the Ancients" is never used because that phrase belongs to Blizzard. They played a risky game but made it through without losing faces. The analogy i wanted to make with Silicon Knights is that Silicon Knights had a deal with Epic games on how they were allowed to use the engine and they broke that and it went wrong. You too have a deal on how you are allowed to use Blizzards "engine" or editor and things will go wrong if you try to break it. I could imagen multiple reasons for Blizzard taking full IP right, first and foremost they probably wanna prevent you from in any way selling maps without their permission. Second they probably wanted to make sure they weren't going to say be forced to take down your maps, at your request. Now as for getting partial IP rights, as showed earlier Blizzard is working on that! But their expectations is that it will be done some years after the release of LOTV. | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On April 28 2013 22:44 Sumadin wrote: Yes, but this is the difference. You also can't publish your maps etc if you break the eula on how to use the editor, no one is denying this.Well he probably didn't. He wasn't the only creator and the EULA is quite clear. If Blizzard had been out from the start to lay siege to the claim, then Valve would have had little choice but to rebrand the name. Valve have clearly been stepping carefully. Nerubian Weaver for example had to get renamed. Another thing i have heard is that Dota 2 is treated fully as the one and only name of the game. The term "Defense of the Ancients" is never used because that phrase belongs to Blizzard. They played a risky game but made it through without losing faces. The analogy i wanted to make with Silicon Knights is that Silicon Knights had a deal with Epic games on how they were allowed to use the engine and they broke that and it went wrong. You too have a deal on how you are allowed to use Blizzards "engine" or editor and things will go wrong if you try to break it. I could imagen multiple reasons for Blizzard taking full IP right, first and foremost they probably wanna prevent you from in any way selling maps without their permission. Second they probably wanted to make sure they weren't going to say be forced to take down your maps, at your request. Now as for getting partial IP rights, as showed earlier Blizzard is working on that! But their expectations is that it will be done some years after the release of LOTV. The point is that you claim Blizz gets rights over the IP, which is an entirely different issue. Even though epic could stop them from publishing, they couldn't claim rights over the IP. They still own all the IP and they can port all the assets to another engine if they want. What Blizzard says: If you originally use our editor we own the name, the IP, the ideas, the assets. I don't think that'd ever fly in court. But hey, WANAL | ||
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On April 28 2013 11:08 SiskosGoatee wrote: I'm not part of this community, I'm posting on this forum, there is a difference. I am neither allied nor affiliated with any 'community'. ... I'm not proposing anything, as I aid, this isn't an ought, it's an is. It's a declarative observation, not a suggested course of action. how quick you are to forget being banned for this semantics bullshit? | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
If you honestly call the is-ought distinction 'semantic bullshit' it speaks of being wholly uneducated and illiterate. The is-ought problem is one of the most central themes in western philosophy and the most relevant and quintessential root of any western philosophical argument has always been 'is this to be considered an is or an ought' because it changes everything. Hell, 70% of the western philosophers after 1900 don't even believe you can rationally ever argue an 'ought', only an 'is'. | ||
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Ragoo
Germany2773 Posts
On April 28 2013 23:27 SiskosGoatee wrote: The majority consensus can be summed up by that I am a giant flying fucking arsehole of course. Basically. Did it take you this long to figure that out? You derail like every single thread in the forum and talk bullshit about the entirety of the mapmaking community (at every opportunity I might add), which is just a group of hobby mapmakers with no intention to make money or fame from this. The mapmaking community in this size and quality only exists because people are interested in watching good Starcraft games on good maps and the rest is all idiotic shit that you come up with in your twisted, lonely mind. Alternatively you are just a giant troll. Either way I am looking forward to the day you are banned for good, I can't remember reading anything useful from you ever. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On April 29 2013 00:54 Ragoo wrote: Ever considered consulting a therapist for those moods of yours?Basically. Did it take you this long to figure that out? You derail like every single thread in the forum and talk bullshit about the entirety of the mapmaking community (at every opportunity I might add), which is just a group of hobby mapmakers with no intention to make money or fame from this. The mapmaking community in this size and quality only exists because people are interested in watching good Starcraft games on good maps and the rest is all idiotic shit that you come up with in your twisted, lonely mind. Alternatively you are just a giant troll. Either way I am looking forward to the day you are banned for good, I can't remember reading anything useful from you ever. And no, a 'community' by definition exists because it's an echo chamber. A group of people doing something needn't be a community. Consider parliament, hell, they all want to run the country but in the end they strife against and argue against each other. It's healthy, provides a check of power. If they didn't do that, you'd have what's called a dictatoship, not healthy. They're not a community, even though they do the same thing. In the end the corpus of mappers is far from healthy because it's one giant echo chamber to the point of some people (nahh, not talking about you babe) getting verbally abusive towards dissenting views. Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line. | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
Dont you have something better to do then argue just for the sake of argueing? Considering the lenght and amount of your posts you must be spending hours doing this every day. | ||
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Meerel
Germany713 Posts
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: Ever considered consulting a therapist for those moods of yours? And no, a 'community' by definition exists because it's an echo chamber. A group of people doing something needn't be a community. Consider parliament, hell, they all want to run the country but in the end they strife against and argue against each other. It's healthy, provides a check of power. If they didn't do that, you'd have what's called a dictatoship, not healthy. They're not a community, even though they do the same thing. In the end the corpus of mappers is far from healthy because it's one giant echo chamber to the point of some people (nahh, not talking about you babe) getting verbally abusive towards dissenting views. Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line. can you just shut up or something.... | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On April 29 2013 01:23 Archvil3 wrote: Not really, currently in between jobs living mostly from savings, last job paid well and I actually have very little expenses due to an interesting tax situation where my single mother was extremely poor when she turned 50 but managed to earn a lot of money with a good job after that. Gotta love the tax system, it's pretty stupid but because my mother was extremely poor when I started taking student loans even though she's no longer now, I don't have to pay them of essentially.mr Siskos Goatse Dont you have something better to do then argue just for the sake of argueing? Considering the lenght and amount of your posts you must be spending hours doing this every day. Exempli gratia, you m'lady have no right to call me an arsehole until you check your temper at the door. Replying to someone purely to make a person insult in a thread which is about debating an important matter, not even adding something to the discussion at all, just a personal insult and nothing more? You're kidding me. | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
Let me get something straight. You argue that mapmakers are all trying to get their maps played on. You make maps as well; I've seen quite a few of them, and you argued in the OP that you didn't want them used if your name was going to go public. May I ask why you are reassuring us that you make maps purely for fun and are insistent on having tons of privacy when you are submitting maps to a competition that will probably choose maps to be played on by the masses? Relevant posts/parts of posts: Well, I enjoy making maps. As it happens I like my own maps of course. So yeah, I wouldn't mind if my maps were on the ladder but if Blizz demanded that my real name become public the deal'd be off. Hell, if Blizz demanded my TL username'd become public I'd register under a new one. But the bottom line is that I enjoy making maps as a creative effort so I'm already getting what I want. And truth be told, I'm selfish enough to say that I enjoy making maps more than 'helping the scene'. If I could choose between this contest suddenly collapsing or me never touching the editor again. I'd choose the former. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408416 This edition of the TeamLiquid map contest will have two categories - 1v1 maps and team play maps. Team play maps are 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 maps. After a rigorous judging/testing process, finalists and winners in both categories will be announced and those maps will be considered by Blizzard for use in the official StarCraft 2 ladder map pool for future ladder seasons. Selected maps (if any) may be altered by Blizzard to comply with ladder map pool standards. I'm not saying people 'should' do anything, I'm more alluding to hypocrisy. People claim they want to help the 'mapping scene', but I'm sceptical. I think more than anything, people want to achieve fame and have their map played on the ladder. A selfish goal in the end packages into something more noble and calling it 'helping the mapping scene'. It's like GOMTV and many more companies do, they call it 'supporting esports', but let's face it, it's actually 'support our business'. Also, why do you assume we all aim to have our maps played on? I'm not in this for money or fame, I'm just trying to be part of a vibrant mapmaking community. | ||
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Archvil3
Denmark989 Posts
Not really, currently in between jobs living mostly from savings, last job paid well and I actually have very little expenses due to an interesting tax situation where my single mother was extremely poor when she turned 50 but managed to earn a lot of money with a good job after that. Gotta love the tax system, it's pretty stupid but because my mother was extremely poor when I started taking student loans even though she's no longer now, I don't have to pay them of essentially. That's a really cute story mr Goatse, but let me be honest with you. When someone asks you if dont have something better to do they are not really interested in your lifestory. They are telling you to fuck off. | ||
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SiskosGoatee
Albania1482 Posts
On April 29 2013 01:41 The_Templar wrote: Hey, many have already admitted it is pretty much the case and people care mostly about their maps being played.SiskosGoatee, one man versus the disguised selfishness and greed of seemingly honest mapmakers. May I ask why you are reassuring us that you make maps purely for fun and are insistent on having tons of privacy when you are submitting maps to a competition that will probably choose maps to be played on by the masses? As it stands I like my maps. Well, I don't even actually 'like' them as much as I recognise that they are different. It's pretty much been my main point of argument here that maps are all too alike so I like to submit a couple of different maps.If Blizz demands my name become public if they get played on the maps, that'd be a dealbreaker for me. I don't like difference that much that I'm willing to compromise my privacy to get different maps played. I'm pretty sure there are some people here that can make better 'different' maps than I and I invite them to try it. But as it stands not a lot of people are. Also, why do you assume we all aim to have our maps played on? I'm not in this for money or fame, I'm just trying to be part of a vibrant mapmaking community. Not all. But hey, if you are actually not making your ideas public out of fear of them being 'stolen' and someone else winning the contest with your idea. Yeah, then you're definitely one of them. Which was how this discussion all started lest we forget.On April 29 2013 01:41 Archvil3 wrote: You can actually stay out of this topic if you don't like it, have you considered that?That's a really cute story mr Goatse, but let me be honest with you. When someone asks you if dont have something better to do they are not really interested in your lifestory. They are telling you to fuck off. I made a new topic just for that and all. It was also re-opened because different people messaged kadaver arguing there is a material need to discuss this topic. If you don't want to discuss it, hey fine, but seriously, at this point you are derailing the discussion, not I. You like to apparently invade productive discussions just tell participants to fuck of. | ||
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