On April 26 2013 23:19 SiskosGoatee wrote: ... The incentive for Microsoft to make windows is to make money ...
And the incentive for Mapmakers is to acquire a positive Reputation through Fame and Prestige which in turn equals Influence.
BTW Bill Gates is quite a philanthropist, I have a hard time believing he wants money only for himself. I also have a hard time believing he never wanted fame and prestige.
Money is not the only incentive.
He doesn't, but like I said, microsoft making money in turn generates employment and thus furthers the greater good. Mappers getting fame does not, even if you assume fame as a material goal, in the end it doesn't further the greater good, only yourself.
Fame and Prestige is more than nothing. Many people throughout history (and especially recently) who have all the bread they need spend/spent a lot of time and money and other resources in exchange for Fame and Prestige and thus Influence.
Trust. Money can't buy trust. Fame and Prestige on the other hand - people are constantly willing to let experts do the thinking for them and then proceed TRUST their decisions. Fame and Prestige are much more effective at this than any currency/commodity.
And why do you as an expert want people to trust you? Again, money, to get a better job.
Everything points towards money because in the end it's the most liquid good on this planet, it can be converted to pretty much everything.
And I would argue that if I was starving I bet I could get some generous SC players to donate me some bread (surely some would do it anyway, but I'm sure my mapmaking contributions would convince a few more).
Indeed, if you were, but again, this comes down to money. The point is that there may be theoretical cases where fame brings you money, but in practice it doesn't. And I have the feeling people want to achieve fame as a thing on their own, many people just 'want to be famous'. I guess it's related to wanting attention. I don't know why but many people like the idea that people are talking about them or something. It just makes me paranoid but whatever.
A noble goal and I want to reiterate that this is also one of my goals.
But is this your only goal? Should the making community be slaves to the playing community, foregoing all of their own desires in favor of the others'?
The needs of the many...
I'm not saying people 'should' do anything, I'm more alluding to hypocrisy. People claim they want to help the 'mapping scene', but I'm sceptical. I think more than anything, people want to achieve fame and have their map played on the ladder. A selfish goal in the end packages into something more noble and calling it 'helping the mapping scene'. It's like GOMTV and many more companies do, they call it 'supporting esports', but let's face it, it's actually 'support our business'.
Perhaps another noble goal would be to satisfy mapmakers in the process. I submit that urging/expecting mapmakers to forego their desire for Fame/Prestige/Influence is a morally unacceptable method of achieving the goal of getting the best maps played.
Well, I enjoy making maps. As it happens I like my own maps of course. So yeah, I wouldn't mind if my maps were on the ladder but if Blizz demanded that my real name become public the deal'd be off. Hell, if Blizz demanded my TL username'd become public I'd register under a new one. But the bottom line is that I enjoy making maps as a creative effort so I'm already getting what I want. And truth be told, I'm selfish enough to say that I enjoy making maps more than 'helping the scene'. If I could choose between this contest suddenly collapsing or me never touching the editor again. I'd choose the former.
Of course it does. What do you think I was doing for the majority of my time mapmaking? I wasn't actually making very many maps... I was spending a great deal of time acquiring, understanding, and then teaching information for the express goal of enhancing the quality of everyone's maps.
Indeed it does, but still, many maps are published as locked and people were in fact encouraged to keep their progress secret. As a mathematician by background I can't understand this, exact science is complete open source. 'If I had seen further, it was because I could stand upon the shoulders of the giants.', every result is built upon the things that went before it.
I acquired all the fame/prestige/influence I could ask for... except for the fact that I wasn't really marketing maps anymore. My knowledge/experience with SC2 mapmaking is genuine, but if you looked close at me it did look a little silly that I wasn't using it to create quality maps. It wasn't that I couldn't (think what you want), but why didn't I?
Because open sharing of information and ideas becomes extremely tedious with something as complex as SC2 mapmaking and as few people working on it as the mapmaking community. (And btw I had banling responsibilities too so gimme a break - I guess I did get a break if I didn't already take [another] one haha).
You don't need to actively write articles, but it has come to the point that people take active steps towards secrecy. Publishing as locked on purpose so people can't open up their maps in the editor and see how they've done things, it's not too much to ask to publish as locked.
If you understand the raw simplicity / lack of comprehensiveness of the idea you proposed (if you bother saying whether or not you do you're missing the point) then you will start to see why this 'open sharing of information and ideas' in the context of SC2 mapmaking is extremely tedious, difficult to fully explain and understand, and therefore non-conducive to efficient communication. If time spent is a measure of confidence in the value of open sharing of information and ideas, then nobody values it more than me (all the way back to my first map thread cataloging way more than it should).. and I doubt anyone knows better than me how incredibly inefficient it is.
As I said, I wasn't talking about writing articles. I was talking about the fact that people publish their maps as locked or are afraid to post their work in progress lest someone 'steals' their idea.
This is clearly a continued conversation, but I'm just going to post as if this were the starting point.
As much as I would like my map played on ladder, I would be happier if we had rotation of well produced maps than if we played my map forever.
I publish every map as open and if anybody ever wants to use one of my maps as a base, you need only ask.
Bullshit that I'm not willing to support the map making scene. Just like almost anything that I want to change, I don't really care if it's me that does it or somebody else, as long as it gets done.
EDIT: that being said, people deserve credit for the work that they do.
On April 26 2013 23:19 SiskosGoatee wrote: ... The incentive for Microsoft to make windows is to make money ...
And the incentive for Mapmakers is to acquire a positive Reputation through Fame and Prestige which in turn equals Influence.
BTW Bill Gates is quite a philanthropist, I have a hard time believing he wants money only for himself. I also have a hard time believing he never wanted fame and prestige.
Money is not the only incentive.
He doesn't, but like I said, microsoft making money in turn generates employment and thus furthers the greater good.
“Oh, I thought you were trying to build a canal. If it’s jobs you want, then you should give these workers spoons, not shovels.” - Milton Friedman
This doesn't create jobs, a job is someone performing a worthwhile service that benefits the community and that person benefiting his or herself by being compensated, thereby producing a flourishing society.
Digging canals with a spoon rather than a shovel doesn't perform a worthwhile job. In the end the person who pays for the canal is way worse of than that person could be.
It's giving people money, but it's not creating jobs.
To put it as simply as possible: Money = fluid currency that helps us get what we want Goods and Services = ***WHAT WE ACTUALLY WANT***
Money = means Goods and Services = GOAL
It never ends, in the end goods are also converted to things. It just happens that money is itself a good, and a highly liquid one at that. Ultimately a car + fuel is still converted to transportation.
Fame/reputation/prestige is a goal of mapmakers... and producing good maps is the means (often and hopefully simultaneously a goal).
Yap, and I'm asking why? What does fame and prestge do for you? Like I said, I don't get it. In fact, I can sooner understand not wanting to be under the scrutiny of the entire SC2 community, they're known to whichhunt.
Good maps are the goods and creation of these maps is the service (encouraging quality and plenty of these is a goal of the players).
It is, but like I said, I'm pointing out the hypocrisy. People say they are out to help the mapping scene, improve map rotation, increase variety of play. Majority of people are actually just out to become famous.
Not saying that you can't be out for that, but at least be honest, including to yourself.
Fame/reputation/prestige, while indeed non-transferable, is still a payment that mapmakers hope to receive. And don't put words in my mouth, I never implied fame is a material goal. You would do well to separate physics from metaphysics.
I never said you did, I said we could assume it for sake of argument.
Not sure why you felt the need to hide my emphasis on what the point the post you're quoting was supposed to be making - probably had something to do with the lame rebuttal. Since you failed to acknowledge my emphasis, I am compelled to re-emphasize it by only replying to this part until you come up with a real rebuttal. This is the point of the post you're quoting - dodging it the way you seem to be makes it seem like you're arguing for the sake of argument:
THere's nothing to say to it, it's a summation of the rest. You can agree or disagree with it, nothing more.
So we should all forgo our desire for fame/prestige/influence... just because... SiskosGoatee would?
Like I said three times, no one should do anything, I don't believe in shoulds, I'm just pointing out that people aren't entirely truthful when they say they are out to help the mapping scene, they are out to achieve fame primarily.
And like I said before too, I'm not per se out to help the mapping 'scene', all I want is more variety in ladder maps because I'm getting exhausted from all the daybreak clones.
Actually I don't like how you completely cut off the last few paragraphs of the post you're quoting, probably because they were making you look bad. Here's the full/unedited quote
What's to argue with it? It's not an argument, it's a personal opinion, either I agree or disagree with it. Not much to say to it. It doesn't have the form ' ... therefore ...'.
Fame and prestige in an extension of your map being accepted and successful.
You say you like to create maps regardless of whether or not they are used by players. That's fine, but that's not the point here. Go to something even more basic than that. You just want to create a good map.
Its the difference between creating a bad map and being highly criticized for it, or creating a good map and being praised for it. That singular feeling of praise leads to many different outcomes, but to this discussion, if your high quality work leads to you getting noticed by others, how is that in any way "your fault" for the fame?
What, are you going to create maps in secret, never tell anyone about them, or never post them, so you won't be labelled a hypocrite?
On April 27 2013 04:02 a176 wrote: Fame and prestige in an extension of your map being accepted and successful.
You say you like to create maps regardless of whether or not they are used by players. That's fine, but that's not the point here. Go to something even more basic than that. You just want to create a good map.
Its the difference between creating a bad map and being highly criticized for it, or creating a good map and being praised for it. That singular feeling of praise leads to many different outcomes, but to this discussion, if your high quality work leads to you getting noticed by others, how is that in any way "your fault" for the fame?
What, are you going to create maps in secret, never tell anyone about them, or never post them, so you won't be labelled a hypocrite?
Nice and all, but again, that's tangental to my point. Like I said, I'm just saying, people say they are out to improve the 'mapping scene' while let's face it, most of them just want to be famous and don't care about the scene. But saying 'I want to help the scene' comes of better so they say that instead.
I want to help the scene as a means, not as an end, my end is that I'm getting tired of all the maps having the exact same main/nat/third setups. If all the new maps into the ladder pool again feature that they might as well keep the old maps as far as I'm concerned.
I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money, as those don't really exist in the scene. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it.
With that said, I really don't understand what is being argued here. You guys seem to be going off topic about various things and arguing about subjective topics. Doesn't make much sense. As a result, I don't really see a purpose for a thread. This seems more worthy as a discussion over PM or Skype.
On April 27 2013 04:10 a176 wrote: Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish?
Why is this even a thread?
To not ruin the other thread the discussion was ported from.
On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote: I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it.
I disagree, if this was the case people would not keep their projects secret to enhance their chances of winning the TLMC by saveguarding against people 'stealing' their ideas. People would also not publish maps as locked if this was the case. All pointing to people not wanting others to run with their ideas. Which was the original thing this discussion started from.
Sisko you are a being an absolute jerk. Yes, mappers all have a "me myself and I" internal motive, as do you and everyone else in this world. Everyone is selfish; fact. However that does not mean that every word we say, and every map we design is utilized from that motive and is exclusively for that purpose. I complain about map exposure and blizzard being silent to us because I want the community as a whole to get the spotlight and get productive, but somehow that means "focus only on me?" At least that's how you make it sound.
We make maps for fun. I map stream for fun (even though I see promise in it because i'm the only one that does it). If you feel so harshly toward the map community then you shouldn't be a part of it.
Map makers should get paid. I imagine the people that create the trash maps that Blizzard releases get paid. I could be wrong.
However, the market won't pay because people will just use free maps whenever possible, and there are plenty of map makers content to work without getting paid.
I will say that when I made maps in custom maps in WC3, I started because I wanted to play a certain game and set out to make said game. But as it grew I enjoyed the fame and success and that pushed me to work more on it. Obviously, would have loved to make it into something that provided money but of course it never did. However, what DOTA spawned did.
On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote: I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it.
I disagree, if this was the case people would not keep their projects secret to enhance their chances of winning the TLMC by saveguarding against people 'stealing' their ideas. People would also not publish maps as locked if this was the case. All pointing to people not wanting others to run with their ideas. Which was the original thing this discussion started from.
That literally makes zero sense. TLMC is a competition, and keeping secrets is a means of being competitive. Secondly, the reason people lock their maps is entirely subjective. You cannot be certain as to why people lock their maps. Maybe they do it for "fame" or maybe they do it for reasons you are unaware of. You cannot state for fact that you know why people lock their maps. For example, I lock my maps to have control over my work. Thus, if some tournament wants to change my map, such as putting on a logo in the middle or changing the loading screen, they have to come to me first to see if I agree with those changes. The last thing I want is my work to be representing something I do not agree with. Now, if some mapmaker wants the map file to measure distances, understand proportions, or what not...that's fine, I don't care. I'll gladly send it to them, and I've done that several times in the past. But you know what? That's just me having the preference to have control over my work.
Once again, mapmakers make maps for fun. There is literally ZERO other reason. This scene has no money, and very little fame. What fame there is, is entirely meaningless aside the fun factor of being famous. Thus going back to the point of Mapmaking is for fun.
Hmm, since my small comment in the other thread seems to be the one that started this cacophony, I'll try to explain fully.
I love mapmaking and it is fun to do even when my stuff doesn't get played or even when players/other mapmakers give it bad reviews. However, it is MORE fun when people like it, and when it ends up getting played and paid attention to. This is because it's always nice to be respected by a community and/or by your peers. It is nice when you are recognized for a skill you may possess, rather than it being something that no one knows/cares about. So the TLDR is that people like to be recognized for their work/merits (even if it is a hobby). And a lot of people are competitive too (almost forgot to mention this), esp. people who used to be involved in sports a lot. This can make things more intense/fun.
As for the reason to keep my 1v1 maps under wraps until closer to the end, it's mainly because my aesthetics aren't @ the top tier of mapmakers quite yet (I've gotten a lot better, and I'm probably better than most now, but there are a good # that are still better than me), so if someone else just takes an idea from one of my maps (granted it's somewhat unlikely, but you never know) and puts better aesthetics on it, why should I win? :-P
So basically it's - do you want some fun, or do you want even more fun (due to the competitive aspect) + recognition for what your'e doing?
A good example is that it's probably more fun for someone whose hobby is golf to play with some buddies, that way it's competitive and they can enjoy / brag / taunt about awesome shots or terrible shots. Rather than playing alone and no one knows that you made that amazing chip shot from the sand. Comes back to us being a gregarious race I guess.
Barrin already declared the obvious winning point before this thread was made:
It is here that reputation becomes more than a personal goal for mapmakers but also a potentially useful (albeit potentially harmful) mechanism for maximizing the chances of getting the best maps to be played and the best ideas to be spread.
And then RFD sang exactly the mapper ethos I follow and (in the current scene) would expect of everyone else:
As much as I would like my map played on ladder, I would be happier if we had rotation of well produced maps than if we played my map forever.
I publish every map as open and if anybody ever wants to use one of my maps as a base, you need only ask.
Bullshit that I'm not willing to support the map making scene. Just like almost anything that I want to change, I don't really care if it's me that does it or somebody else, as long as it gets done.
EDIT: that being said, people deserve credit for the work that they do.
On April 27 2013 04:26 IronManSC wrote: Sisko you are a being an absolute jerk. Yes, mappers all have a "me myself and I" internal motive, as do you and everyone else in this world. Everyone is selfish; fact. However that does not mean that every word we say, and every map we design is utilized from that motive and is exclusively for that purpose. I complain about map exposure and blizzard being silent to us because I want the community as a whole to get the spotlight and get productive, but somehow that means "focus only on me?" At least that's how you make it sound.
No, but like I said, it's being dishonest to others and to yourself. People say left and right they want to help grow the 'mapping scene' but in the end, I don't think people care anything about the mapping scene. They care about their own maps getting exposure and very little more and the mapping scene is nothing but a catalyst.
If you publish your maps as locked you are hurting the mapping scene, for what? For your own personal pride that someone might rip your map off or modify it? Who cares if MLG modifies metropolis without notifying the original artist? Is the original metropolis destroyed because of this? No, then what is it? The personal pride of LS being harmed by this or whatever?
We make maps for fun. I map stream for fun (even though I see promise in it because i'm the only one that does it). If you feel so harshly toward the map community then you shouldn't be a part of it.
I'm not in my perspective. I make maps. If that makes me part of 'the community' so be it. I've always spoken about the mapping community as 'they', not 'us', I do not consider myself part of any 'community'.
On April 27 2013 04:27 BronzeKnee wrote: Map makers should get paid. I imagine the people that create the trash maps that Blizzard releases get paid. I could be wrong.
So why doesn't Blizzard fire those guys then and hires superouman or someone from Crux?
On April 27 2013 04:10 a176 wrote: Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish?
Why is this even a thread?
To not ruin the other thread the discussion was ported from.
On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote: I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it.
I disagree, if this was the case people would not keep their projects secret to enhance their chances of winning the TLMC by saveguarding against people 'stealing' their ideas. People would also not publish maps as locked if this was the case. All pointing to people not wanting others to run with their ideas. Which was the original thing this discussion started from.
That literally makes zero sense. TLMC is a competition, and keeping secrets is a means of being competitive.
Bingo, and that people think that winning a competition with no reward but fame is more important than actually getting good maps in the ladder is exactly my point. You just succinctly phrased it.
You cannot state for fact that you know why people lock their maps. For example, I lock my maps to have control over my work. Thus, if some tournament wants to change my map, such as putting on a logo in the middle or changing the loading screen, they have to come to me first to see if I agree with those changes.
Same difference, it's exactly what I'm talking about, the fact that you even want control rather than let people modify your work and improve upon it is beyond me. If MLG thinks your map is better with a small modification like some rocks? Why should they not be able to do that if they think it can enhance the quality of their tournament? Why do you want that control? The original does not get destroyed if someone makes a modification, this isn't a painting.
The last thing I want is my work to be representing something I do not agree with. Now, if some mapmaker wants the map file to measure distances, understand proportions, or what not...that's fine, I don't care. I'll gladly send it to them, and I've done that several times in the past. But you know what? That's just me having the preference to have control over my work.
And that's exactly what I'm talking about, you wanting control over your work hurts the scene, the scene benefits if everyone can modify your work how they see fit. But hey, personal pride > the scene.
Once again, mapmakers make maps for fun. There is literally ZERO other reason. This scene has no money, and very little fame. What fame there is, is entirely meaningless aside the fun factor of being famous. Thus going back to the point of Mapmaking is for fun.
Of course it's for fun, that's what I'm saying, but people come up with more pleasant reasons like that they want to innovate map pools and create more varied map pool, which is just largely not true. They want to innovate map pools with their own maps, that's the instrumental part. The map has to be their own first and foremost, that's the single most important thing for most people. (not all). They'd rather see a map they made themselves in the pool than an even better map made by others.
The fact that people around here even have 'ids' as a method to build reputation exemplifies this. If I could publish maps anonymously on b.net I would. I don't like that people here can spy on my laddering habits simply because of the maps I make but hey, Battle.net 2.0 isn't big on privacy. That people even need to link artist names to maps is beyond me. The point is that the map exists, not who made it, and if the person who made it is yourself.
Wanting control over something makes perfect sense if you think you understand it better than people modifying it, which you probably do since you have been thinking about it more than they have (necessarily). Worthwhile debate about intentions vs interchangeable equivalent properties in here, but still.
On April 27 2013 06:18 EatThePath wrote: Wanting control over something makes perfect sense if you think you understand it better than people modifying it, which you probably do since you have been thinking about it more than they have (necessarily). Worthwhile debate about intentions vs interchangeable equivalent properties in here, but still.
This argument would apply if the original gets destroyed by modifying it. This isn't a painting, this is the digital age. The original map is not destroyed.
Wanting others to not improve upon your work in their own subjective view is nothing but arrogance and being unable to swallow the idea that others like your work in a different way.
There mere fact that you defend this exactly my point. Personal ego > nurturing the mapping scene.
It doesn't get destroyed but it doesn't make sense to have two very similar things competing for attention, be realistic. If you could have map A and map B vs map A1 and map A2 for choices of possible ladder additions, obviously it's in everyone's best interests to have A and B. My point is that the creator of A1 understands what A1 is meant to contribute to the game, and if someone makes A2 and snipes a portion of the support for A1, confusing the issue, it weakens the contribution.
Of course you can make arguments like "if A2 is better it should deserve to take over". But on the timescale of, for example, a map competition, it just makes it harder for both similar maps. It's much better for a map to be presented -- if others draw inspiration from that and go on to make a map that borrows ideas from a prior map, it can become a new entity with a much better shot of contributing than competing with its predecessor.
This is really about iteration and the creative process and respect of other individuals' thought processes.
On April 27 2013 06:18 EatThePath wrote: Wanting control over something makes perfect sense if you think you understand it better than people modifying it, which you probably do since you have been thinking about it more than they have (necessarily). Worthwhile debate about intentions vs interchangeable equivalent properties in here, but still.
This argument would apply if the original gets destroyed by modifying it. This isn't a painting, this is the digital age. The original map is not destroyed.
Wanting others to not improve upon your work in their own subjective view is nothing but arrogance and being unable to swallow the idea that others like your work in a different way.
There mere fact that you defend this exactly my point. Personal ego > nurturing the mapping scene.
Tell that to LS Prime and MLG.
Just because other people can work on it will not make it better. Some maps are just perfect the way the mapper made it, look at Cloud Kingdom.
Assuming you or the community can improve every map ever is just a silly concept and in my opinions shows more of an ego on your side.
On April 27 2013 04:56 Diamond wrote: You guys gimme shit all the time "Diamond why don't you post on TL maps forum anymore"
This. Shit. Is. Why.
funny how it is not only map makers who think it is all about themselves. if you do not care about a topic, feel free to not post. also do not take a topic that you regard shitty as an excuse for not getting involved with the tl map making scene (visible here or based on tl and active in various chats)
that being said, back to topic (:
i really think the main point and main motivation is presented in the first post to answer the op (very strange and complex conversation into op thing)
On April 27 2013 02:15 RFDaemoniac wrote: This is clearly a continued conversation, but I'm just going to post as if this were the starting point.
As much as I would like my map played on ladder, I would be happier if we had rotation of well produced maps than if we played my map forever.
I publish every map as open and if anybody ever wants to use one of my maps as a base, you need only ask.
Bullshit that I'm not willing to support the map making scene. Just like almost anything that I want to change, I don't really care if it's me that does it or somebody else, as long as it gets done.
EDIT: that being said, people deserve credit for the work that they do.
yet i think we need to add - and that is something i know from my experience in the creative industry (main job ) - that if you give something away for no money or little money it will be taken! and if someone provides something that is almost as good as your product for free, it is the product for free that will be consumed (not only consumed by the end-user/consumer, but also highlighted/used/supported by the forces behind the "main product").
so the whole discussion after RFDaemoniac's post is pretty fruitless imho, because the biggest point is already there: we all do it for fun, because we love the game.
yet we should not forget that the game is a product and map makers - not all, yet some - help make the product be a better product. this is not only true for map makers of famous and played maps, but also people who build maps that never got chosen, people who are awesome with giving feedback etc. this whole community helps making SCII a better product, because every single post here helps to keep people involved and thinking about scII.
it could be easy to end the discussion here:
On April 27 2013 04:10 a176 wrote: Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish?
Why is this even a thread?
yet: thank you TL, everybody from TPW, ESV map makers, Galaxy and Crux, everybody on the map making forum, especially plexa, barrin and eatthepath as well as ex-map makers igrok, funcmode, prodiG. I am so happy you help me at my strive for making scII a better game.
don't forget: you are all free to be a part of the map making community and help making a product a better product. your choice, your time and energy. enjoy it, be entertained or leave it be.
On April 27 2013 06:38 Barrin wrote: Motivation to create these maps is a limited resource. I'd like to hear your thoughts on increasing it.
As you pointed out we're not even getting paid currency for producing these goods and services, and yet you are proposing removing(?) the other main thing that motivates us. Where is this going? We're not slaves.
I'm not proposing anything, as I aid, this isn't an ought, it's an is. It's a declarative observation, not a suggested course of action.
On April 27 2013 06:38 Barrin wrote: Motivation to create these maps is a limited resource. I'd like to hear your thoughts on increasing it.
As you pointed out we're not even getting paid currency for producing these goods and services, and yet you are proposing removing(?) the other main thing that motivates us. Where is this going? We're not slaves.
you are not a slave. feel free to not be part of it.
first you make everyone addicted, than you ask them to pay. pretty easy. map making is not good enough just yet.
Diamond tried to support map making, pushed map makers who published under the esv banner and ultimately helped them (and map making in general) get a bigger audience. he also understood that maps will make his "product" ("esv") better. the point is map making is not big enough yet.
why give up now? if you feel like a slave: just do not do it. if you think map making failed: please stay away. right now i am interested to keep on trying, hanging around here and at verious other places to meet people who think alike and do my best to make solid, playable and entertaing maps.
all the best too you if you want to use your time for something else. it was great having you around so far
hey, thanks iamcaustic, i totally missed that post. here i think diamond hits is just right:
On April 27 2013 06:18 EatThePath wrote: Wanting control over something makes perfect sense if you think you understand it better than people modifying it, which you probably do since you have been thinking about it more than they have (necessarily). Worthwhile debate about intentions vs interchangeable equivalent properties in here, but still.
This argument would apply if the original gets destroyed by modifying it. This isn't a painting, this is the digital age. The original map is not destroyed.
Wanting others to not improve upon your work in their own subjective view is nothing but arrogance and being unable to swallow the idea that others like your work in a different way.
There mere fact that you defend this exactly my point. Personal ego > nurturing the mapping scene.
Tell that to LS Prime and MLG.
Just because other people can work on it will not make it better. Some maps are just perfect the way the mapper made it, look at Cloud Kingdom.
Assuming you or the community can improve every map ever is just a silly concept and in my opinions shows more of an ego on your side.
but still we should not give up or complain about a few people crying... (op :x)
Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly.
On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly.
Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them.
The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist.
People aren't blind, people can see the maps is modified. Every tournament also clearly puts on on their site and rules whatever modifications they make to maps. This is just trying to find a reason to rationalize pride which is the only reason. People not being able to stomach other people modifying their work. Really childish honestly.
On April 27 2013 07:27 SiskosGoatee wrote: People aren't blind, people can see the maps is modified. Every tournament also clearly puts on on their site and rules whatever modifications they make to maps. This is just trying to find a reason to rationalize pride which is the only reason. People not being able to stomach other people modifying their work. Really childish honestly.
I have given you exact examples and all you can do is state your opinion as fact.
A part of the reason ESV does not publish maps as open because we have gotten WAYYYY too much shit from tournaments fucking with our maps and when they suck us getting the heat. It reflects poorly on my company because someone fucked with our work, screw that.
If you can give me examples I would be happy to listen, instead you go "I think people are childish", good argument lol.
On April 27 2013 07:27 EatThePath wrote: A disclaimer on a website doesn't help the herd casuals understand.
^ this. 99+% of viewers for a tournament have never visited this mapmaking forum, the liquipedia page for a map, or even the tournament announcement disclaimers. Let's face it, you would not read the small fine text at the bottom if you were not a mapper or player. You do because you are, you are the exception to the rule and the VERY small minority.
On April 27 2013 07:27 EatThePath wrote: Case in point: Daybreak LE and Tal'Darim Altar LE.
A disclaimer on a website doesn't help the herd casuals understand.
The herd cauals don't even know who made these maps.
Apart from, even if this were true, it's still pride and fame, not wanting your good name tarnished. Surely there are more interesting things to worry about than what herd casuals think of your map making decisions. You're basically saying that they don't know what they're talking about anyway.
On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly.
Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them.
The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist.
I don't really remember what maps were changed drastically, the only thing I can think of is Metropolis, but even that wasn't that big of a deal, what other changes were made to non-Blizzard maps?
Also isn't the entire goal of map making to get your map played on? I mean even if they make some changes its better than not be used at all imo.
On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly.
Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them.
The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist.
You really can't claim IP on a melee map made with Blizzards tools and uploaded on their servers. Would be hard enough to do that with an arcade map. They would have the rights to use it with or without the EULA. But IP laws are quite complex hence why there is lawsuits about them all the time and also why Blizzard just makes sure to tell you that they got all the rights through the EULA.
They are however working on a system that can secure players the rights to their maps. Unfortunally "Soon(TM)" doesn't quite cover the timeframe for this.
On April 27 2013 01:27 SiskosGoatee wrote: I'm not saying people 'should' do anything, I'm more alluding to hypocrisy. People claim they want to help the 'mapping scene', but I'm sceptical. I think more than anything, people want to achieve fame and have their map played on the ladder. A selfish goal in the end packages into something more noble and calling it 'helping the mapping scene'. It's like GOMTV and many more companies do, they call it 'supporting esports', but let's face it, it's actually 'support our business'.
On April 27 2013 06:15 SiskosGoatee wrote: ...people come up with more pleasant reasons like that they want to innovate map pools and create more varied map pool, which is just largely not true. They want to innovate map pools with their own maps, that's the instrumental part. The map has to be their own first and foremost, that's the single most important thing for most people. (not all). They'd rather see a map they made themselves in the pool than an even better map made by others.
On April 27 2013 07:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
It's pride, no more, no less.
Quite frankly SIskos, you're just an asshole. You are falsely smearing mapmakers with a negative tone in the public eye as if there is an actual scandal or serious issue the public should know about. Well, there isn't. This is just you making claims with only your mislead opinions to back you up. You cannot make the claim for FACT that every mapmaker does what they do for the sake of pride and fame, because quite frankly there is zero evidence for that. Yet, this is exactly what you are doing. Thus, you are an asshole. You have every right to think what you want, but publicly smearing every single mapmaker with non-provable claims just outright makes you well worthy of being call an asshole.
We're trying our best to improve the mapmaking scene, and then you come along and publicly smear us with the claim that everything we do is mostly for selfish reasons. Well fuck you. Please leave this community, and don't come back. I really do not want someone like you around to be constantly and continuously bringing in such a negative tone.
On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly.
Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them.
The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist.
You really can't claim IP on a melee map made with Blizzards tools and uploaded on their servers. Would be hard enough to do that with an arcade map. They would have the rights to use it with or without the EULA. But IP laws are quite complex hence why there is lawsuits about them all the time and also why Blizzard just makes sure to tell you that they got all the rights through the EULA.
They are however working on a system that can secure players the rights to their maps. Unfortunally "Soon(TM)" doesn't quite cover the timeframe for this.
Besides it would seem that the system is more suited for complex arcade maps. But it might end up covering melee maps too.
I doubt it works that way. For instance. Blizzard lost out to Icefrog on Dota, even though it was made with the WC3 editor, Blizz doesn't own the rights to Dota, Icefrog does who sold it to Valve now I assume. They even have the name to it.
Stuff like this was tried before like manufacturers of typewriters saying that they owned everything written on the typewriter. It just doesn't hold up in court in general. The manufacturer of a tool you use to be create can't just claim the rights even if it's in the EULA. But hey, IANAL.
On April 28 2013 09:31 Timetwister22 wrote: We're trying our best to improve the mapmaking scene, and then you come along and publicly smear us with the claim that everything we do is mostly for selfish reasons.
No, you're not, you're trying to get your maps played. Hell, most people in this thread even admit this with a 'no shit sherlock' affix to it.
Well fuck you. Please leave this community, and don't come back. I really do not want someone like you around to be constantly and continuously bringing in such a negative tone.
I'm not part of this community, I'm posting on this forum, there is a difference. I am neither allied nor affiliated with any 'community'.
And I'm free to post on this forum. Unless of course you feel dissenting views should not be allowed. Which is by the way exactly what it looks like. But I suppose calling it a 'negative tone' rather than a dissenting view makes it look a bit nicer.
I've stayed out of this thread so far because, well, frankly, I don't really care to argue about what people's motivations are for making maps. I get that SiskosGoatee has a lot of weird ideas that he likes to press on, and maybe doesn't know when to back off, and that irks people the wrong way from time to time. But now two different members of the ESV mapmaking team have come on here, and just outright insulted him, and another hasn't exactly been conducting himself in the most exemplary manner possible. And I don't think it's cool for you guys to gang up on him like that just because his philosophical beliefs seem to mirror Ayn Rand's more than August Comte's.
Yah for sure there's no need to drag anyone through the mud. Though I really question the point of the discussion.
Examine this:
Players in football, basketball, soccer, or Starcraft 2, if you like.. play because of:
1) it's fun 2) fame 3) money
Probably not in that order
Mapmakers make maps because of:
1) it's fun 2) the chance of getting a very small amount of fame
So if we're keeping score, mapmakers are actually the more "virtuous" people by far because they don't even get money or hardly any fame but they do it anyway
Shall we go into Starcraft 2 General and make a thread entitled "Starcraft 2 Players and the Capitalist Market of Fame and Money" ?
On April 28 2013 14:58 Fatam wrote: Shall we go into Starcraft 2 General and make a thread entitled "Starcraft 2 Players and the Capitalist Market of Fame and Money" ?
I don't know man, this thread already gave me cancer. I'm not sure I could handle cancer AND aids...
On April 28 2013 09:31 Timetwister22 wrote: We're trying our best to improve the mapmaking scene, and then you come along and publicly smear us with the claim that everything we do is mostly for selfish reasons.
No, you're not, you're trying to get your maps played. Hell, most people in this thread even admit this with a 'no shit sherlock' affix to it.
No, you're not, you're trying to get your maps played.
First of all, you're stating this as fact, and I'm curious as to what research you've done to back this up. Second, this implies every mapmaker ever is wholly and completely selfish. Take a look at our impoverished circumstances and remember that being selfish in times like this destroys the entire scene, which in turn destroys the one being selfish, given time. It's an idiotic conclusion that assumes everyone you're talking about is just as idiotic. What you're saying here is technically true, but you ignore that it's only part of the story. Your lying by omission puts a tainted light on the rest of us.
Hell, most people in this thread even admit this with a 'no shit sherlock' affix to it.
You and words coming out of other people's mouths, you don't get along.
I would like to echo:
On April 27 2013 04:10 a176 wrote: Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish?
Why is this even a thread?
On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote: I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money, as those don't really exist in the scene. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it.
With that said, I really don't understand what is being argued here. You guys seem to be going off topic about various things and arguing about subjective topics. Doesn't make much sense. As a result, I don't really see a purpose for a thread. This seems more worthy as a discussion over PM or Skype.
Overall Siskos, your conclusion seems to be that we don't give a shit about the mapmaking scene. You're full of shit. This is an art, to keep going we need inspiration, or every map becomes the same boring thing, or worse, no new maps come out at all. If I was the only mapmaker left, I'd probably quit. Then again, you probably have no idea what I'm on about here. After all, art and craft are not things you can affix laws to, like with math and science. It's probably difficult.
On April 27 2013 04:11 Timetwister22 wrote: I don't understand this thread. Mapmaking is a hobby. Mapmakers make maps for fun. Mapmakers do not start mapmaking for fame or money. If mapmakers get famous for their work or start getting paid, that's cool. How the mapmaker approaches this new found fame or money is up to them. That is all there is to it.
I agree with this.
On April 27 2013 04:15 SiskosGoatee wrote: I disagree, if this was the case people would not keep their projects secret to enhance their chances of winning the TLMC by saveguarding against people 'stealing' their ideas. People would also not publish maps as locked if this was the case. All pointing to people not wanting others to run with their ideas. Which was the original thing this discussion started from.
I'd assume more people aren't posting maps early for TLMC because they have until a certain date to fix shit up on the map. Only reason I showed my two maps off was because I've been tweaking them for the past month now and I feel they are done. I could easily go back and do some more aesthetic work on either of the maps but I think they are good enough. Just because people are holding off til the last few days to submit doesn't mean they want to hide their ideas.
Also about locked maps. I'm sure if you actually PM'd the mapper asking for their map file they would probably more then likely give it to you.
edit.
I will agree with Siskos and say that every mapper better want their map to be played. You don't submit your stuff to TLMC#2 hoping to come in 2nd. That's just stupid. I make maps to win and to win in map making is to get them played. I'll still give feedback to other mappers and share my thoughts, but you're god damn right that I'm hoping I kick your ass in that mapping tournament.
On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly.
Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them.
The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist.
You really can't claim IP on a melee map made with Blizzards tools and uploaded on their servers. Would be hard enough to do that with an arcade map. They would have the rights to use it with or without the EULA. But IP laws are quite complex hence why there is lawsuits about them all the time and also why Blizzard just makes sure to tell you that they got all the rights through the EULA.
They are however working on a system that can secure players the rights to their maps. Unfortunally "Soon(TM)" doesn't quite cover the timeframe for this.
Besides it would seem that the system is more suited for complex arcade maps. But it might end up covering melee maps too.
I doubt it works that way. For instance. Blizzard lost out to Icefrog on Dota, even though it was made with the WC3 editor, Blizz doesn't own the rights to Dota, Icefrog does who sold it to Valve now I assume. They even have the name to it.
Stuff like this was tried before like manufacturers of typewriters saying that they owned everything written on the typewriter. It just doesn't hold up in court in general. The manufacturer of a tool you use to be create can't just claim the rights even if it's in the EULA. But hey, IANAL.
And this is why stuff like this is handled by Lawers. You are wrong on at least 3 points.
For one Blizzard vs Valve was a trademark case. This is even more complex than IP. IANAL either but from what i do know is that it is alot easier to take a trademark and alot easier to lose it. WarZ for example had a trademark until the scandal which they then lost because it infringed on the Trademark of not only DayZ but also World WarZ.
Second, Blizzard didn't lose the case. It was settled outside court, and while the settlement largely was in Valves favor it doesn't mean Blizzard didn't have a case to defend their claim on the trademark. They were a little late on the mark through because they actually took up a trademark case that another Dota dev had made. But they were getting shitton of bad PR from it and had little to gain from it. So the aggrement seems reasonable. However you can't really use a case that ended in a settlement as a example.
And finally, gaming engines are not typewriters! Before you even think about the possibility to take the rights of your maps away from Blizzard, try asking Silicon knights how well screwing over their gameengine makers went for them...
We are talking full game developers here, their own arts, own sound, presumingly alot of original game mechanics. Nothing mattered because they decided they wanted to screw with Epic games, the makers of their game engine. They lost.... HARD. And now all their IP with the Unreal engine is to be destroyed and Epic must approve all their futher games to make sure that the IP of Epic games is not infringed.
So really, the only way you are ever going to get any rights over your maps is if Blizzard volunterely gives them to you. But that feature is not coming any time soon(TM).
On April 28 2013 14:32 FlyingBeer wrote: just because his philosophical beliefs seem to mirror Ayn Rand's more than August Comte's.
Hey hey hey hey. Don't be callin' me an objectivist now dawg. That's the most ridiculous stuff ever. The colour perception thought experiment alone invalidates 80% of that stuff.
On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly.
Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them.
The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist.
You really can't claim IP on a melee map made with Blizzards tools and uploaded on their servers. Would be hard enough to do that with an arcade map. They would have the rights to use it with or without the EULA. But IP laws are quite complex hence why there is lawsuits about them all the time and also why Blizzard just makes sure to tell you that they got all the rights through the EULA.
They are however working on a system that can secure players the rights to their maps. Unfortunally "Soon(TM)" doesn't quite cover the timeframe for this.
Besides it would seem that the system is more suited for complex arcade maps. But it might end up covering melee maps too.
I doubt it works that way. For instance. Blizzard lost out to Icefrog on Dota, even though it was made with the WC3 editor, Blizz doesn't own the rights to Dota, Icefrog does who sold it to Valve now I assume. They even have the name to it.
Stuff like this was tried before like manufacturers of typewriters saying that they owned everything written on the typewriter. It just doesn't hold up in court in general. The manufacturer of a tool you use to be create can't just claim the rights even if it's in the EULA. But hey, IANAL.
And this is why stuff like this is handled by Lawers. You are wrong on at least 3 points.
For one Blizzard vs Valve was a trademark case. This is even more complex than IP. IANAL either but from what i do know is that it is alot easier to take a trademark and alot easier to lose it. WarZ for example had a trademark until the scandal which they then lost because it infringed on the Trademark of not only DayZ but also World WarZ.
Second, Blizzard didn't lose the case. It was settled outside court, and while the settlement largely was in Valves favor it doesn't mean Blizzard didn't have a case to defend their claim on the trademark. They were a little late on the mark through because they actually took up a trademark case that another Dota dev had made. But they were getting shitton of bad PR from it and had little to gain from it. So the aggrement seems reasonable. However you can't really use a case that ended in a settlement as a example.
And finally, gaming engines are not typewriters! Before you even think about the possibility to take the rights of your maps away from Blizzard, try asking Silicon knights how well screwing over their gameengine makers went for them...
We are talking full game developers here, their own arts, own sound, presumingly alot of original game mechanics. Nothing mattered because they decided they wanted to screw with Epic games, the makers of their game engine. They lost.... HARD. And now all their IP with the Unreal engine is to be destroyed and Epic must approve all their futher games to make sure that the IP of Epic games is not infringed.
So really, the only way you are ever going to get any rights over your maps is if Blizzard volunterely gives them to you. But that feature is not coming any time soon(TM).
The point is that if the EULA was to be interpreted llterally Icefrog didn't even have a right to the name Dota. Apart fro the Unreal engine game, they didn't licence the engine, that's entirely different. That's copyright enfringement. The issue here is if Blizzard can claim IP over your creative worok just because it was made in the editor.
An analogue case would be if Epic could just claim copyright over all those assets because it was made in the unreal engine and start selling that game themselves, which they can't. You need permission from both IP holders to do that, Epic for use of the Engine, Silicon Knights for the assets and creative ideas.
On April 28 2013 20:36 SiskosGoatee wrote: The point is that if the EULA was to be interpreted llterally Icefrog didn't even have a right to the name Dota. Apart fro the Unreal engine game, they didn't licence the engine, that's entirely different. That's copyright enfringement. The issue here is if Blizzard can claim IP over your creative worok just because it was made in the editor.
An analogue case would be if Epic could just claim copyright over all those assets because it was made in the unreal engine and start selling that game themselves, which they can't. You need permission from both IP holders to do that, Epic for use of the Engine, Silicon Knights for the assets and creative ideas.
Well he probably didn't. He wasn't the only creator and the EULA is quite clear. If Blizzard had been out from the start to lay siege to the claim, then Valve would have had little choice but to rebrand the name.
Valve have clearly been stepping carefully. Nerubian Weaver for example had to get renamed. Another thing i have heard is that Dota 2 is treated fully as the one and only name of the game. The term "Defense of the Ancients" is never used because that phrase belongs to Blizzard. They played a risky game but made it through without losing faces.
The analogy i wanted to make with Silicon Knights is that Silicon Knights had a deal with Epic games on how they were allowed to use the engine and they broke that and it went wrong.
You too have a deal on how you are allowed to use Blizzards "engine" or editor and things will go wrong if you try to break it. I could imagen multiple reasons for Blizzard taking full IP right, first and foremost they probably wanna prevent you from in any way selling maps without their permission. Second they probably wanted to make sure they weren't going to say be forced to take down your maps, at your request.
Now as for getting partial IP rights, as showed earlier Blizzard is working on that! But their expectations is that it will be done some years after the release of LOTV.
On April 28 2013 20:36 SiskosGoatee wrote: The point is that if the EULA was to be interpreted llterally Icefrog didn't even have a right to the name Dota. Apart fro the Unreal engine game, they didn't licence the engine, that's entirely different. That's copyright enfringement. The issue here is if Blizzard can claim IP over your creative worok just because it was made in the editor.
An analogue case would be if Epic could just claim copyright over all those assets because it was made in the unreal engine and start selling that game themselves, which they can't. You need permission from both IP holders to do that, Epic for use of the Engine, Silicon Knights for the assets and creative ideas.
Well he probably didn't. He wasn't the only creator and the EULA is quite clear. If Blizzard had been out from the start to lay siege to the claim, then Valve would have had little choice but to rebrand the name.
Valve have clearly been stepping carefully. Nerubian Weaver for example had to get renamed. Another thing i have heard is that Dota 2 is treated fully as the one and only name of the game. The term "Defense of the Ancients" is never used because that phrase belongs to Blizzard. They played a risky game but made it through without losing faces.
The analogy i wanted to make with Silicon Knights is that Silicon Knights had a deal with Epic games on how they were allowed to use the engine and they broke that and it went wrong.
You too have a deal on how you are allowed to use Blizzards "engine" or editor and things will go wrong if you try to break it. I could imagen multiple reasons for Blizzard taking full IP right, first and foremost they probably wanna prevent you from in any way selling maps without their permission. Second they probably wanted to make sure they weren't going to say be forced to take down your maps, at your request.
Now as for getting partial IP rights, as showed earlier Blizzard is working on that! But their expectations is that it will be done some years after the release of LOTV.
Yes, but this is the difference. You also can't publish your maps etc if you break the eula on how to use the editor, no one is denying this.
The point is that you claim Blizz gets rights over the IP, which is an entirely different issue. Even though epic could stop them from publishing, they couldn't claim rights over the IP. They still own all the IP and they can port all the assets to another engine if they want.
What Blizzard says: If you originally use our editor we own the name, the IP, the ideas, the assets. I don't think that'd ever fly in court. But hey, WANAL
On April 28 2013 11:08 SiskosGoatee wrote: I'm not part of this community, I'm posting on this forum, there is a difference. I am neither allied nor affiliated with any 'community'.
...
I'm not proposing anything, as I aid, this isn't an ought, it's an is. It's a declarative observation, not a suggested course of action.
how quick you are to forget being banned for this semantics bullshit?
I was banned because I 'derailed', which is ironic since it gets closed when I start a new thread.
If you honestly call the is-ought distinction 'semantic bullshit' it speaks of being wholly uneducated and illiterate. The is-ought problem is one of the most central themes in western philosophy and the most relevant and quintessential root of any western philosophical argument has always been 'is this to be considered an is or an ought' because it changes everything. Hell, 70% of the western philosophers after 1900 don't even believe you can rationally ever argue an 'ought', only an 'is'.
On April 28 2013 23:27 SiskosGoatee wrote: The majority consensus can be summed up by that I am a giant flying fucking arsehole of course.
Basically. Did it take you this long to figure that out? You derail like every single thread in the forum and talk bullshit about the entirety of the mapmaking community (at every opportunity I might add), which is just a group of hobby mapmakers with no intention to make money or fame from this. The mapmaking community in this size and quality only exists because people are interested in watching good Starcraft games on good maps and the rest is all idiotic shit that you come up with in your twisted, lonely mind. Alternatively you are just a giant troll.
Either way I am looking forward to the day you are banned for good, I can't remember reading anything useful from you ever.
On April 28 2013 23:27 SiskosGoatee wrote: The majority consensus can be summed up by that I am a giant flying fucking arsehole of course.
Basically. Did it take you this long to figure that out? You derail like every single thread in the forum and talk bullshit about the entirety of the mapmaking community (at every opportunity I might add), which is just a group of hobby mapmakers with no intention to make money or fame from this. The mapmaking community in this size and quality only exists because people are interested in watching good Starcraft games on good maps and the rest is all idiotic shit that you come up with in your twisted, lonely mind. Alternatively you are just a giant troll.
Either way I am looking forward to the day you are banned for good, I can't remember reading anything useful from you ever.
Ever considered consulting a therapist for those moods of yours?
And no, a 'community' by definition exists because it's an echo chamber. A group of people doing something needn't be a community. Consider parliament, hell, they all want to run the country but in the end they strife against and argue against each other. It's healthy, provides a check of power. If they didn't do that, you'd have what's called a dictatoship, not healthy. They're not a community, even though they do the same thing.
In the end the corpus of mappers is far from healthy because it's one giant echo chamber to the point of some people (nahh, not talking about you babe) getting verbally abusive towards dissenting views.
Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line.
Dont you have something better to do then argue just for the sake of argueing? Considering the lenght and amount of your posts you must be spending hours doing this every day.
On April 28 2013 23:27 SiskosGoatee wrote: The majority consensus can be summed up by that I am a giant flying fucking arsehole of course.
Basically. Did it take you this long to figure that out? You derail like every single thread in the forum and talk bullshit about the entirety of the mapmaking community (at every opportunity I might add), which is just a group of hobby mapmakers with no intention to make money or fame from this. The mapmaking community in this size and quality only exists because people are interested in watching good Starcraft games on good maps and the rest is all idiotic shit that you come up with in your twisted, lonely mind. Alternatively you are just a giant troll.
Either way I am looking forward to the day you are banned for good, I can't remember reading anything useful from you ever.
Ever considered consulting a therapist for those moods of yours?
And no, a 'community' by definition exists because it's an echo chamber. A group of people doing something needn't be a community. Consider parliament, hell, they all want to run the country but in the end they strife against and argue against each other. It's healthy, provides a check of power. If they didn't do that, you'd have what's called a dictatoship, not healthy. They're not a community, even though they do the same thing.
In the end the corpus of mappers is far from healthy because it's one giant echo chamber to the point of some people (nahh, not talking about you babe) getting verbally abusive towards dissenting views.
Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line.
On April 29 2013 01:23 Archvil3 wrote: mr Siskos Goatse
Dont you have something better to do then argue just for the sake of argueing? Considering the lenght and amount of your posts you must be spending hours doing this every day.
Not really, currently in between jobs living mostly from savings, last job paid well and I actually have very little expenses due to an interesting tax situation where my single mother was extremely poor when she turned 50 but managed to earn a lot of money with a good job after that. Gotta love the tax system, it's pretty stupid but because my mother was extremely poor when I started taking student loans even though she's no longer now, I don't have to pay them of essentially.
On April 28 2013 23:27 SiskosGoatee wrote: The majority consensus can be summed up by that I am a giant flying fucking arsehole of course.
Basically. Did it take you this long to figure that out? You derail like every single thread in the forum and talk bullshit about the entirety of the mapmaking community (at every opportunity I might add), which is just a group of hobby mapmakers with no intention to make money or fame from this. The mapmaking community in this size and quality only exists because people are interested in watching good Starcraft games on good maps and the rest is all idiotic shit that you come up with in your twisted, lonely mind. Alternatively you are just a giant troll.
Either way I am looking forward to the day you are banned for good, I can't remember reading anything useful from you ever.
Ever considered consulting a therapist for those moods of yours?
And no, a 'community' by definition exists because it's an echo chamber. A group of people doing something needn't be a community. Consider parliament, hell, they all want to run the country but in the end they strife against and argue against each other. It's healthy, provides a check of power. If they didn't do that, you'd have what's called a dictatoship, not healthy. They're not a community, even though they do the same thing.
In the end the corpus of mappers is far from healthy because it's one giant echo chamber to the point of some people (nahh, not talking about you babe) getting verbally abusive towards dissenting views.
Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line.
can you just shut up or something....
Exempli gratia, you m'lady have no right to call me an arsehole until you check your temper at the door.
Replying to someone purely to make a person insult in a thread which is about debating an important matter, not even adding something to the discussion at all, just a personal insult and nothing more? You're kidding me.
SiskosGoatee, one man versus the disguised selfishness and greed of seemingly honest mapmakers. Let me get something straight. You argue that mapmakers are all trying to get their maps played on. You make maps as well; I've seen quite a few of them, and you argued in the OP that you didn't want them used if your name was going to go public. May I ask why you are reassuring us that you make maps purely for fun and are insistent on having tons of privacy when you are submitting maps to a competition that will probably choose maps to be played on by the masses?
Relevant posts/parts of posts:
Well, I enjoy making maps. As it happens I like my own maps of course. So yeah, I wouldn't mind if my maps were on the ladder but if Blizz demanded that my real name become public the deal'd be off. Hell, if Blizz demanded my TL username'd become public I'd register under a new one. But the bottom line is that I enjoy making maps as a creative effort so I'm already getting what I want. And truth be told, I'm selfish enough to say that I enjoy making maps more than 'helping the scene'. If I could choose between this contest suddenly collapsing or me never touching the editor again. I'd choose the former.
This edition of the TeamLiquid map contest will have two categories - 1v1 maps and team play maps. Team play maps are 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 maps. After a rigorous judging/testing process, finalists and winners in both categories will be announced and those maps will be considered by Blizzard for use in the official StarCraft 2 ladder map pool for future ladder seasons. Selected maps (if any) may be altered by Blizzard to comply with ladder map pool standards.
I'm not saying people 'should' do anything, I'm more alluding to hypocrisy. People claim they want to help the 'mapping scene', but I'm sceptical. I think more than anything, people want to achieve fame and have their map played on the ladder. A selfish goal in the end packages into something more noble and calling it 'helping the mapping scene'. It's like GOMTV and many more companies do, they call it 'supporting esports', but let's face it, it's actually 'support our business'.
Also, why do you assume we all aim to have our maps played on? I'm not in this for money or fame, I'm just trying to be part of a vibrant mapmaking community.
Not really, currently in between jobs living mostly from savings, last job paid well and I actually have very little expenses due to an interesting tax situation where my single mother was extremely poor when she turned 50 but managed to earn a lot of money with a good job after that. Gotta love the tax system, it's pretty stupid but because my mother was extremely poor when I started taking student loans even though she's no longer now, I don't have to pay them of essentially.
That's a really cute story mr Goatse, but let me be honest with you. When someone asks you if dont have something better to do they are not really interested in your lifestory. They are telling you to fuck off.
On April 29 2013 01:41 The_Templar wrote: SiskosGoatee, one man versus the disguised selfishness and greed of seemingly honest mapmakers.
Hey, many have already admitted it is pretty much the case and people care mostly about their maps being played.
May I ask why you are reassuring us that you make maps purely for fun and are insistent on having tons of privacy when you are submitting maps to a competition that will probably choose maps to be played on by the masses?
As it stands I like my maps. Well, I don't even actually 'like' them as much as I recognise that they are different. It's pretty much been my main point of argument here that maps are all too alike so I like to submit a couple of different maps.
If Blizz demands my name become public if they get played on the maps, that'd be a dealbreaker for me. I don't like difference that much that I'm willing to compromise my privacy to get different maps played.
I'm pretty sure there are some people here that can make better 'different' maps than I and I invite them to try it. But as it stands not a lot of people are.
Also, why do you assume we all aim to have our maps played on? I'm not in this for money or fame, I'm just trying to be part of a vibrant mapmaking community.
Not all. But hey, if you are actually not making your ideas public out of fear of them being 'stolen' and someone else winning the contest with your idea. Yeah, then you're definitely one of them. Which was how this discussion all started lest we forget.
Not really, currently in between jobs living mostly from savings, last job paid well and I actually have very little expenses due to an interesting tax situation where my single mother was extremely poor when she turned 50 but managed to earn a lot of money with a good job after that. Gotta love the tax system, it's pretty stupid but because my mother was extremely poor when I started taking student loans even though she's no longer now, I don't have to pay them of essentially.
That's a really cute story mr Goatse, but let me be honest with you. When someone asks you if dont have something better to do they are not really interested in your lifestory. They are telling you to fuck off.
You can actually stay out of this topic if you don't like it, have you considered that?
I made a new topic just for that and all. It was also re-opened because different people messaged kadaver arguing there is a material need to discuss this topic. If you don't want to discuss it, hey fine, but seriously, at this point you are derailing the discussion, not I. You like to apparently invade productive discussions just tell participants to fuck of.
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey.
If fame > fun is indeed a fact, since you so earnestly claim it to be, can I ask who displays this? If any names come to mind, when did they display this selfishness? How often do they do it today? With what maps does this selfishness sprout from? You are saying this is a critical issue, as in most or ALL of us are like this. You still are not giving any evidence whatsoever that this is the case (which it's not). This does not mean that there aren't moments when a mapmaker may feel like a badass with a particular skill or map, but that doesn't mean he isn't helpful to others in the community and works with them.
I will use myself as an example here. When Ohana got second place, I became a bit of a unintentional jerk with a bit of pride. Anyone including yourself could agree that this is normal. That attitude I mistakenly developed by human nature got me in the wrong boat with a few mappers and rightfully so - though i've gotten over it. Superouman and I achieved something from the TLMC1 that perhaps others won't get to experience for a long time (although, it seems there will be frequent TLMC's, so we'll see). It was the first real leap of faith in the map community, and it was a tremendous boost to personal morale and ego; to be part of the "first ones to do it." Now obviously some people handle their words and emotions differently, so let's use my case yet again. Yes, I was a bit prideful because it felt good that I contributed something. Yes, it was nice that I got dozens of people praising me for making a great map. Yes, I did feel like a badass. This sort of a feeling goes away after a while though once you've experienced the spotlight for a time being.
After a 6 month break I felt calm again and realized that I wanted to go back to mapmaking because... it's fun. The way the tools and creativity works in SC2 just somehow mesh well with my brain. I enjoy the colors of the editor, the tools to work with, and the creativity in its vast design. Do I want to win TLMC2? Yes, so does everyone else. That's called competition. Everyone wants to be the best. Nobody wants to win second place. To base your conclusion merely off this principle is another way of saying we are completely careless, which is totally ironic.
However, we are not careless in regards to the community. Just because we all want to win the first place prize doesn't mean we don't help each other and collaborate behind the scenes. For example, Last week I surrendered my latest map file to one of TPW mappers so he could make changes. And just the week before, lefix from TPW did map streaming and a handful of us tuned in to watch his creative mind go to work. Timmay is a constructive mapper, and he often tunes in to my map testing on stream and willingly helps test my maps. Ragoo may be a hard ass but sometimes we need those kinds of people to push us and to challenge ourselves. Scorp, who made Atlas, feels greatly about his achievement but he still helps other mappers and offers feedback. I, for one, don't technically post feedback in threads that much. It's not that I don't care or i'm "too good for it," I just am not that type of mapper. I like doing, not talking. Are you involved with mappers on skype? Because every day I see collaboration and suggestions going back and forth between them.
As for your earlier comment on how mappers "hide" their maps from the TLMC... I haven't shown my two submissions for this year's TLMC2, because 1) I'm not done yet with either of them, and 2) I want to feel confident that it's the final product i'm putting out. I have a bad habit of making a map thread and then changing a dozen things over the course of a week, including the pictures, so this time i'm waiting till almost the last minute. I have nothing to hide, and if you're not part of the community then you should know that I revealed my TLMC2 maps dozens of times on my map stream.
Your criticism to this map community is flawed and without cause. Anyone can have an opinion on something or someone and state it as a fact as long as you believe that another person in this world would agree with you. Besides, what is it to you? What are you getting from this argument? Why do you even care what our personal motivation is to make maps? I'm sure you're a nice guy in person, but on here you are rude and defensive. If mappers themselves can't convince you otherwise, then I don't know what will.
You can actually stay out of this topic if you don't like it, have you considered that?
I made a new topic just for that and all. It was also re-opened because different people messaged kadaver arguing there is a material need to discuss this topic. If you don't want to discuss it, hey fine, but seriously, at this point you are derailing the discussion, not I. You like to apparently invade productive discussions just tell participants to fuck of.
Productive. That's a big word.
Let me ask you this. 922 lenghty posts and what have you achieved?
In what terms have you actually succeeded in producing anything and what do you possibly think you can achieve with this thread? What is the best possible outcome for you and do you really, honestly think you can achieve it?
Cause I'll be honest with you, the only thing you have ever achieved with your posts on team liquid is to make people dislike you. Whatever time you have spent have been for nothing and whatever time you will spend be a waste.
Nobody listens to someone who argue just for the sake of argueing, and being on a forum on the internet you are extremely easy to ignore.
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey.
If fame > fun is indeed a fact, since you so earnestly claim it to be, can I ask who displays this? If any names come to mind, when did they display this selfishness? How often do they do it today? With what maps does this selfishness sprout from? You are saying this is a critical issue, as in most or ALL of us are like this. You still are not giving any evidence whatsoever that this is the case (which it's not). This does not mean that there aren't moments when a mapmaker may feel like a badass with a particular skill or map, but that doesn't mean he isn't helpful to others in the community and works with them.
I didn't say fame > fun. I said fame > helping the community.
Any anyone who is afraid of their idea being 'stolen' displays this, per definition. If someone else gets fame from your idea that is no detriment the community, hell, if he gets fame from your idea and not you, we can assume he executed the idea better. It is however detrimental to your fame.
I will use myself as an example here. When Ohana got second place, I became a bit of a unintentional jerk with a bit of pride. Anyone including yourself could agree that this is normal.
It is normal, but normal is not an excuse.
That attitude I mistakenly developed by human nature got me in the wrong boat with a few mappers and rightfully so - though i've gotten over it. Superouman and I achieved something from the TLMC1 that perhaps others won't get to experience for a long time (although, it seems there will be frequent TLMC's, so we'll see). It was the first real leap of faith in the map community, and it was a tremendous boost to personal morale and ego; to be part of the "first ones to do it." Now obviously some people handle their words and emotions differently, so let's use my case yet again. Yes, I was a bit prideful because it felt good that I contributed something. Yes, it was nice that I got dozens of people praising me for making a great map. Yes, I did feel like a badass. This sort of a feeling goes away after a while though once you've experienced the spotlight for a time being.
After a 6 month break I felt calm again and realized that I wanted to go back to mapmaking because... it's fun. The way the tools and creativity works in SC2 just somehow mesh well with my brain. I enjoy the colors of the editor, the tools to work with, and the creativity in its vast design. Do I want to win TLMC2? Yes, so does everyone else. That's called competition. Everyone wants to be the best. Nobody wants to win second place. To base your conclusion merely off this principle is another way of saying we are completely careless, which is totally ironic.
However, we are not careless in regards to the community. Just because we all want to win the first place prize doesn't mean we don't help each other and collaborate behind the scenes. For example, Last week I surrendered my latest map file to one of TPW mappers so he could make changes. And just the week before, lefix from TPW did map streaming and a handful of us tuned in to watch his creative mind go to work. Timmay is a constructive mapper, and he often tunes in to my map testing on stream and willingly helps test my maps. Ragoo may be a hard ass but sometimes we need those kinds of people to push us and to challenge ourselves. Scorp, who made Atlas, feels greatly about his achievement but he still helps other mappers and offers feedback. I, for one, don't technically post feedback in threads that much. It's not that I don't care or i'm "too good for it," I just am not that type of mapper. I like doing, not talking. Are you involved with mappers on skype? Because every day I see collaboration and suggestions going back and forth between them.
As for your earlier comment on how mappers "hide" their maps from the TLMC... I haven't shown my two submissions for this year's TLMC2, because 1) I'm not done yet with either of them, and 2) I want to feel confident that it's the final product i'm putting out. I have a bad habit of making a map thread and then changing a dozen things over the course of a week, including the pictures, so this time i'm waiting till almost the last minute. I have nothing to hide, and if you're not part of the community then you should know that I revealed my TLMC2 maps dozens of times on my map stream.
Your criticism to this map community is flawed and without cause. Anyone can have an opinion on something or someone and state it as a fact as long as you believe that another person in this world would agree with you. Besides, what is it to you? What are you getting from this argument? Why do you even care what our personal motivation is to make maps? I'm sure you're a nice guy in person, but on here you are rude and defensive. If mappers themselves can't convince you otherwise, then I don't know what will.
I agree with all this if I would've said that fame > fun. Which I didn't. I don't deny mappers want to have fun. I said that for a large part, they are willing to put the success of their own maps above the success of the mapping community as a whole.
You ask me to argue that, I've done it countless times. Again, if one is afraid of one's ideas being stolen, then one puts ones own personal success and fame above the procreation of ideas throughout the mapping scene. That's just basic logic.
Let me ask you a question then:
What do you think most people here would do if they had a choice (and no one would know which they picked)
A: 4 new community maps get into the map pool, none of which you made B: 3 new get into the map pool, one of which you made.
I'm pretty sure except for the loss of face and anger (and no one would find out), the majority of people here would rather have their own map in the pool and 2 maps made by different people. And that is exactly what I'm talking about.
You can actually stay out of this topic if you don't like it, have you considered that?
I made a new topic just for that and all. It was also re-opened because different people messaged kadaver arguing there is a material need to discuss this topic. If you don't want to discuss it, hey fine, but seriously, at this point you are derailing the discussion, not I. You like to apparently invade productive discussions just tell participants to fuck of.
Productive. That's a big word.
The discussion was asked to be re-opened, in fact, it continued with 4 different people in PM. This proves there is a material need slash willingness for people to discuss this topic. You just aren't one of them. You seem to be more willing to discuss that it shouldn't be discussed. I'm frankly not but I tend to respond to people.
Let me ask you this. 922 lenghty posts and what have you achieved?
Nothing with you or other people who limit themselves to just insulting and not actually debating. I will say that the discussions with Barrin or other people who actually discuss the topic rather than packaged personal insults have made me think.
In what terms have you actually succeeded in producing anything and what do you possibly think you can achieve with this thread? What is the best possible outcome for you and do you really, honestly think you can achieve it?
The best possible outcome for me is if people would stop the echo chamber and start thinking for themselves rather than assuming things because they are repeated over and over. And I've convinced some people of the idea that oft repeated things people just assumed about maps may not always be true. Convincing all is unrealistic but it is my ultimate goal.
Cause I'll be honest with you, the only thing you have ever achieved with your posts on team liquid is to make people dislike you. Whatever time you have spent have been for nothing and whatever time you will spend be a waste.
Completely sure that isn't true. A variety of people have in fact told me that my criticism on the staleness of map variety has inspired them to try more radical ideas.
Nobody listens to someone who argue just for the sake of argueing, and being on a forum on the internet you are extremely easy to ignore.
Again, then how do youe xplain that people specifically asked cadaver to re-open this thread.
You don't care aboutt his topic, that's fine, I have no idea why you post int his thread. You're mostly clutter. You're derailing here. You're not discussing the topic at hand, you're discussing me and my motivations which is derailing. I'm just answering to it which admittedly I probably shouldn't and I am accomplice to derailing in some way.
I don't deny mappers want to have fun. I said that for a large part, they are willing to put the success of their own maps above the success of the mapping community as a whole.
I normally ignore your comment, but right now I feel like you are attacking the credibility of us map maker and you are wrong... When someone of the mapping community is able to get one of his map in a tournament we are quite happy because it means that we are progressing in having a better map pool and diversity. Plus it creates visibility for all of us. I think everyone was very sad to hear that IPL 6 was cancelled because we(community) had a couple of maps that was going to be used by them. Also like ironman said we help each other a lot when we map on skype.
I don't deny mappers want to have fun. I said that for a large part, they are willing to put the success of their own maps above the success of the mapping community as a whole.
I normally ignore your comment, but right now I feel like you are attacking the credibility of us map maker and you are wrong... When someone of the mapping community is able to get one of his map in a tournament we are quite happy because it means that we are progressing in having a better map pool and diversity. Plus it creates visibility for all of us. I think everyone was very sad to hear that IPL 6 was cancelled because we(community) had a couple of maps that was going to be used by them. Also like ironman said we help each other a lot when we map on skype.
Again, if that were true, why would anyone keep their work secret? Explain that.
THe only reason to keep your work secret is to stop another from getting acclaim with your idea. For the community itself it doesn't matter who gets the acclaim. It does matter for you though.
So again, people put their own acclaim and fame before the community. Which has been exactly my point from the start which started this debate in my response to Fatam who argued that people should keep their ideas secret lest they be stolen. A notion which to some extend offends me.
On April 29 2013 02:22 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, if that were true, why would anyone keep their work secret? Explain that.
THe only reason to keep your work secret is to stop another from getting acclaim with your idea. For the community itself it doesn't matter who gets the acclaim. It does matter for you though.
So again, people put their own acclaim and fame before the community. Which has been exactly my point from the start which started this debate in my response to Fatam who argued that people should keep their ideas secret lest they be stolen. A notion which to some extend offends me.
We don't keep our map secret... If you were on the skype channel you would see that we show our maps to everyone and we ask for comment on what we should work on to make the map better. I don't know how you could read that people put their own acclaim and fame before the community in what I said. For me when someone is able to get is map example: Scorp with Atlas in the GSL, I'm very happy to see that after so many month we get to see a new map of the TL community being played in a big tournament.
On April 29 2013 02:22 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, if that were true, why would anyone keep their work secret? Explain that.
THe only reason to keep your work secret is to stop another from getting acclaim with your idea. For the community itself it doesn't matter who gets the acclaim. It does matter for you though.
So again, people put their own acclaim and fame before the community. Which has been exactly my point from the start which started this debate in my response to Fatam who argued that people should keep their ideas secret lest they be stolen. A notion which to some extend offends me.
We don't keep our map secret... If you were on the skype channel you would see that we show our maps to everyone and we ask for comment on what we should work on to make the map better. I don't know how you could read that people put their own acclaim and fame before the community in what I said. For me when someone is able to get is map example: Scorp with Atlas in the GSL, I'm very happy to see that after so many month we get to see a new map of the TL community being played in a big tournament.
Yes, if it gets in a tournament without directly detrimenting you. But, again, what would you choose if you could, your map, or that of scorp, even though you know that Scorp's map is just a little bit better?
I'm sure there are some people who'd still pick Scorp's, but for the majority, I don't buy it.
And I also don't buy that people are completely fine with others running with their ideas. They want their credit for it.
On April 29 2013 02:37 SiskosGoatee wrote: And I also don't buy that people are completely fine with others running with their ideas. They want their credit for it.
I don't know at what point this idea of stealing ideas became foremost in your mind, but you seem to be the only one really occupied with it, looking at the natural expansions in your maps. It seriously isn't a thing. You wouldn't know though, because you're not in TL's map chat, and you're not in TL's map chat because of shit like this.
On April 29 2013 02:37 SiskosGoatee wrote: And I also don't buy that people are completely fine with others running with their ideas. They want their credit for it.
I don't know at what point this idea of stealing ideas became foremost in your mind, but you seem to be the only one really occupied with it, looking at the natural expansions in your maps. It seriously isn't a thing. You wouldn't know though, because you're not in TL's map chat, and you're not in TL's map chat because of shit like this.
It's what started the discussion?
What started the discussion was Fatam saying peolpe shouldn't post their half completed maps lest people steal their ideas and my commenting on that.
But hey whatever, you're not actually here to debate the topic at hand, you're here to find a way to personally insult me all the while complaining that I'm derailing discussions.
Like I said a thousnad times, if this discussion has no meaning to you, fine, great, that's your prerogative. But then just don't open the topic, it's really easy you know, far easier than opening the topic, one click less.
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line.
That is incredibly hypocritical. I have no problem with you having different views. Absolutely zero problem with that. However, when you come out to publicly criticize mapmakers for things that are simply not true, then that is no different from me calling you an asshole. You are harming us with your opinion, why can't we harm you with ours? You are simply being hypocritical.
Opinions should not be posted unless they are harmless or bring about something beneficial. You rarely see people posting on the tournament overview threads with things like "OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3" or "Terran SO imba gg everyone else", and when they do, they usually get moderated. Instead, you see people post things such as "Gogo EG-TL!" or "Good luck Naniwa vs Innovation!" Point being, keep you opinion to yourself unless it's harmless or brings something beneficial. Your opinion of mapmakers being all for pride, fame, and selfish reasons is none of those things. It only makes us look bad and drags us through the dirt. Thus, I have every right to call you an asshole, as you are doing nothing different.
Also, I would like to leave you with a quote from the TL.net Ten Commandments:
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line.
That is incredibly hypocritical. I have no problem with you having different views. Absolutely zero problem with that. However, when you come out to publicly criticize mapmakers for things that are simply not true, then that is no different from me calling you an asshole. You are harming us with your opinion, why can't we harm you with ours? You are simply being hypocritical.
Because I don't start a post with 'You're an arsehole' when it's not material to the point I'm making, it's a disjoint ad-hominem, nothing more. In this case calling peolpe selfish is material to the point I'm arguing, You however are just venting steam, not contributing to the discussion, derailing threads and simply posting in a topic to flame the OP.
Opinions should not be posted unless they are harmless or bring about something beneficial.
Great, you can no never criticize Blizzard again because your opinions are harmful to Blizzard.
Can you truly not see that banning criticism is a ridiculous road to take? But then again, it's not criticism you want banned, it's criticism towards you and your community. I've been no more critical of the mapping community than you have of Blizzard and MLG. The difference is that my opinion is dissident within the mapping community.
You rarely see people posting on the tournament overview threads with things like "OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3" or "Terran SO imba gg everyone else", and when they do, they usually get moderated. Instead, you see people post things such as "Gogo EG-TL!" or "Good luck Naniwa vs Innovation!" Point being, keep you opinion to yourself unless it's harmless or brings something beneficial. Your opinion of mapmakers being all for pride, fame, and selfish reasons is none of those things. It only makes us look bad and drags us through the dirt. Thus, I have every right to call you an asshole, as you are doing nothing different.
People are well within the rules of TL to criticize Flash and other pros if they do it civilly. I have remained civil. You have not.
"OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3"
Is not civil, however saying 'I really don't like Flash' play style because ... and I think it is boring because ...' is extremely constructive and well allowed within the TL rules. And that is exactly what I have been doing to the mapping community. Yes, I am highly critical about how it is run but I have never failed to be civil and I have always duly argued my point. Far more duly than you ever have.
Also, I would like to leave you with a quote from the TL.net Ten Commandments:
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
Then stay out of my topic. You're ruining the fun, not I. You're not even discussing the actual topic, you're discussing me.
And as I said before. I've been no more critical of how the mapping scene is currently going than you have been of MLG and Blizzard so please give me a break. Your only quarrel is that this time you, or rather, a scene you consider yourself part of is being the object of criticism. you're completely fine with people calling Blizzard or MLG 'idiots' without as much of an argument.
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line.
That is incredibly hypocritical. I have no problem with you having different views. Absolutely zero problem with that. However, when you come out to publicly criticize mapmakers for things that are simply not true, then that is no different from me calling you an asshole. You are harming us with your opinion, why can't we harm you with ours? You are simply being hypocritical.
Because I don't start a post with 'You're an arsehole' when it's not material to the point I'm making, it's a disjoint ad-hominem, nothing more. In this case calling peolpe selfish is material to the point I'm arguing, You however are just venting steam, not contributing to the discussion, derailing threads and simply posting in a topic to flame the OP.
Opinions should not be posted unless they are harmless or bring about something beneficial.
Great, you can no never criticize Blizzard again because your opinions are harmful to Blizzard.
Can you truly not see that banning criticism is a ridiculous road to take? But then again, it's not criticism you want banned, it's criticism towards you and your community. I've been no more critical of the mapping community than you have of Blizzard and MLG. The difference is that my opinion is dissident within the mapping community.
You rarely see people posting on the tournament overview threads with things like "OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3" or "Terran SO imba gg everyone else", and when they do, they usually get moderated. Instead, you see people post things such as "Gogo EG-TL!" or "Good luck Naniwa vs Innovation!" Point being, keep you opinion to yourself unless it's harmless or brings something beneficial. Your opinion of mapmakers being all for pride, fame, and selfish reasons is none of those things. It only makes us look bad and drags us through the dirt. Thus, I have every right to call you an asshole, as you are doing nothing different.
People are well within the rules of TL to criticize Flash and other pros if they do it civilly. I have remained civil. You have not.
"OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3"
Is not civil, however saying 'I really don't like Flash' play style because ... and I think it is boring because ...' is extremely constructive and well allowed within the TL rules. And that is exactly what I have been doing to the mapping community. Yes, I am highly critical about how it is run but I have never failed to be civil and I have always duly argued my point. Far more duly than you ever have.
Also, I would like to leave you with a quote from the TL.net Ten Commandments:
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
Then stay out of my topic. You're ruining the fun, not I. You're not even discussing the actual topic, you're discussing me.
And as I said before. I've been no more critical of how the mapping scene is currently going than you have been of MLG and Blizzard so please give me a break. Your only quarrel is that this time you, or rather, a scene you consider yourself part of is being the object of criticism. you're completely fine with people calling Blizzard or MLG 'idiots' without as much of an argument.
Having a negative opinion toward things Blizzard is actually doing is fine, because there is a real problem at hand that needs to be fixed, and there is clear evidence of this issue. When it comes to this topic, it is simply you dragging mapmakers through dirt without any evidence of a real issue at hand. You are not being critical of a particular problem, because there isn't a problem. You are just staying your opinion of the sake of being negative, and that's it. That is what I mean by being beneficial or harmless.
EPT
) - that if you give something away for no money or little money it will be taken! and if someone provides something that is almost as good as your product for free, it is the product for free that will be consumed (not only consumed by the end-user/consumer, but also highlighted/used/supported by the forces behind the "main product").
