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On April 27 2013 04:56 Diamond wrote:
You guys gimme shit all the time "Diamond why don't you post on TL maps forum anymore"
This. Shit. Is. Why.
funny how it is not only map makers who think it is all about themselves.
if you do not care about a topic, feel free to not post. also do not take a topic that you regard shitty as an excuse for not getting involved with the tl map making scene (visible here or based on tl and active in various chats)
that being said, back to topic (:
i really think the main point and main motivation is presented in the first post to answer the op (very strange and complex conversation into op thing)
On April 27 2013 02:15 RFDaemoniac wrote:
This is clearly a continued conversation, but I'm just going to post as if this were the starting point.
As much as I would like my map played on ladder, I would be happier if we had rotation of well produced maps than if we played my map forever.
I publish every map as open and if anybody ever wants to use one of my maps as a base, you need only ask.
Bullshit that I'm not willing to support the map making scene. Just like almost anything that I want to change, I don't really care if it's me that does it or somebody else, as long as it gets done.
EDIT: that being said, people deserve credit for the work that they do.
yet i think we need to add - and that is something i know from my experience in the creative industry (main job  ) - that if you give something away for no money or little money it will be taken! and if someone provides something that is almost as good as your product for free, it is the product for free that will be consumed (not only consumed by the end-user/consumer, but also highlighted/used/supported by the forces behind the "main product").
so the whole discussion after RFDaemoniac's post is pretty fruitless imho, because the biggest point is already there: we all do it for fun, because we love the game.
yet we should not forget that the game is a product and map makers - not all, yet some - help make the product be a better product. this is not only true for map makers of famous and played maps, but also people who build maps that never got chosen, people who are awesome with giving feedback etc. this whole community helps making SCII a better product, because every single post here helps to keep people involved and thinking about scII.
it could be easy to end the discussion here:
On April 27 2013 04:10 a176 wrote:
Oh, so you are just assuming that people are being selfish?
Why is this even a thread?
yet: thank you TL, everybody from TPW, ESV map makers, Galaxy and Crux, everybody on the map making forum, especially plexa, barrin and eatthepath as well as ex-map makers igrok, funcmode, prodiG. I am so happy you help me at my strive for making scII a better game.
don't forget: you are all free to be a part of the map making community and help making a product a better product. your choice, your time and energy. enjoy it, be entertained or leave it be.
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The other thing that should be mentioned, and it's very simple -
If something is fun for you, it is fun for you. It doesn't have to make sense or be understood by other people :-P
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On April 27 2013 04:56 Diamond wrote:
You guys gimme shit all the time "Diamond why don't you post on TL maps forum anymore"
This. Shit. Is. Why.
Can't say I blame you. I'm sitting here asking myself the question: "Why does this thread exist?"
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On April 27 2013 06:38 Barrin wrote:
Motivation to create these maps is a limited resource. I'd like to hear your thoughts on increasing it.
As you pointed out we're not even getting paid currency for producing these goods and services, and yet you are proposing removing(?) the other main thing that motivates us. Where is this going? We're not slaves. I'm not proposing anything, as I aid, this isn't an ought, it's an is. It's a declarative observation, not a suggested course of action.
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On April 27 2013 06:38 Barrin wrote:
Motivation to create these maps is a limited resource. I'd like to hear your thoughts on increasing it.
As you pointed out we're not even getting paid currency for producing these goods and services, and yet you are proposing removing(?) the other main thing that motivates us. Where is this going? We're not slaves.
you are not a slave. feel free to not be part of it.
first you make everyone addicted, than you ask them to pay. pretty easy. map making is not good enough just yet.
Diamond tried to support map making, pushed map makers who published under the esv banner and ultimately helped them (and map making in general) get a bigger audience.
he also understood that maps will make his "product" ("esv") better. the point is map making is not big enough yet.
why give up now? if you feel like a slave: just do not do it. if you think map making failed: please stay away. right now i am interested to keep on trying, hanging around here and at verious other places to meet people who think alike and do my best to make solid, playable and entertaing maps.
all the best too you if you want to use your time for something else. it was great having you around so far 
hey, thanks iamcaustic, i totally missed that post.
here i think diamond hits is just right:
On April 27 2013 06:33 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 06:25 SiskosGoatee wrote:On April 27 2013 06:18 EatThePath wrote:
Wanting control over something makes perfect sense if you think you understand it better than people modifying it, which you probably do since you have been thinking about it more than they have (necessarily). Worthwhile debate about intentions vs interchangeable equivalent properties in here, but still. This argument would apply if the original gets destroyed by modifying it. This isn't a painting, this is the digital age. The original map is not destroyed. Wanting others to not improve upon your work in their own subjective view is nothing but arrogance and being unable to swallow the idea that others like your work in a different way. There mere fact that you defend this exactly my point. Personal ego > nurturing the mapping scene. Tell that to LS Prime and MLG. Just because other people can work on it will not make it better. Some maps are just perfect the way the mapper made it, look at Cloud Kingdom. Assuming you or the community can improve every map ever is just a silly concept and in my opinions shows more of an ego on your side.
but still we should not give up or complain about a few people crying... (op :x)
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Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly.
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On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly.
Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them.
The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist.
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People aren't blind, people can see the maps is modified. Every tournament also clearly puts on on their site and rules whatever modifications they make to maps. This is just trying to find a reason to rationalize pride which is the only reason. People not being able to stomach other people modifying their work. Really childish honestly.
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Case in point: Daybreak LE and Tal'Darim Altar LE.
A disclaimer on a website doesn't help the herd casuals understand.
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On April 27 2013 07:27 SiskosGoatee wrote:
People aren't blind, people can see the maps is modified. Every tournament also clearly puts on on their site and rules whatever modifications they make to maps. This is just trying to find a reason to rationalize pride which is the only reason. People not being able to stomach other people modifying their work. Really childish honestly.
I have given you exact examples and all you can do is state your opinion as fact.
A part of the reason ESV does not publish maps as open because we have gotten WAYYYY too much shit from tournaments fucking with our maps and when they suck us getting the heat. It reflects poorly on my company because someone fucked with our work, screw that.
If you can give me examples I would be happy to listen, instead you go "I think people are childish", good argument lol.
On April 27 2013 07:27 EatThePath wrote:
A disclaimer on a website doesn't help the herd casuals understand.
^ this. 99+% of viewers for a tournament have never visited this mapmaking forum, the liquipedia page for a map, or even the tournament announcement disclaimers. Let's face it, you would not read the small fine text at the bottom if you were not a mapper or player. You do because you are, you are the exception to the rule and the VERY small minority.
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On April 27 2013 07:27 EatThePath wrote:
Case in point: Daybreak LE and Tal'Darim Altar LE.
A disclaimer on a website doesn't help the herd casuals understand. The herd cauals don't even know who made these maps.
Apart from, even if this were true, it's still pride and fame, not wanting your good name tarnished. Surely there are more interesting things to worry about than what herd casuals think of your map making decisions. You're basically saying that they don't know what they're talking about anyway.
It's pride, no more, no less.
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Germany25657 Posts
Why do you create a new thread to continue an argument from another thread?
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Germany25657 Posts
Reopening, sorry for closing.
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On April 27 2013 07:23 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly. Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them. The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist.
I don't really remember what maps were changed drastically, the only thing I can think of is Metropolis, but even that wasn't that big of a deal, what other changes were made to non-Blizzard maps?
Also isn't the entire goal of map making to get your map played on? I mean even if they make some changes its better than not be used at all imo.
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On April 27 2013 07:23 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly. Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them. The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist.
You really can't claim IP on a melee map made with Blizzards tools and uploaded on their servers. Would be hard enough to do that with an arcade map. They would have the rights to use it with or without the EULA. But IP laws are quite complex hence why there is lawsuits about them all the time and also why Blizzard just makes sure to tell you that they got all the rights through the EULA.
They are however working on a system that can secure players the rights to their maps. Unfortunally "Soon(TM)" doesn't quite cover the timeframe for this.
+ Show Spoiler +
Besides it would seem that the system is more suited for complex arcade maps. But it might end up covering melee maps too.
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On April 27 2013 01:27 SiskosGoatee wrote:
I'm not saying people 'should' do anything, I'm more alluding to hypocrisy. People claim they want to help the 'mapping scene', but I'm sceptical. I think more than anything, people want to achieve fame and have their map played on the ladder. A selfish goal in the end packages into something more noble and calling it 'helping the mapping scene'. It's like GOMTV and many more companies do, they call it 'supporting esports', but let's face it, it's actually 'support our business'.
On April 27 2013 06:15 SiskosGoatee wrote:
...people come up with more pleasant reasons like that they want to innovate map pools and create more varied map pool, which is just largely not true. They want to innovate map pools with their own maps, that's the instrumental part. The map has to be their own first and foremost, that's the single most important thing for most people. (not all). They'd rather see a map they made themselves in the pool than an even better map made by others.
On April 27 2013 07:36 SiskosGoatee wrote:
It's pride, no more, no less.
Quite frankly SIskos, you're just an asshole. You are falsely smearing mapmakers with a negative tone in the public eye as if there is an actual scandal or serious issue the public should know about. Well, there isn't. This is just you making claims with only your mislead opinions to back you up. You cannot make the claim for FACT that every mapmaker does what they do for the sake of pride and fame, because quite frankly there is zero evidence for that. Yet, this is exactly what you are doing. Thus, you are an asshole. You have every right to think what you want, but publicly smearing every single mapmaker with non-provable claims just outright makes you well worthy of being call an asshole.
We're trying our best to improve the mapmaking scene, and then you come along and publicly smear us with the claim that everything we do is mostly for selfish reasons. Well fuck you. Please leave this community, and don't come back. I really do not want someone like you around to be constantly and continuously bringing in such a negative tone.
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On April 28 2013 09:01 Sumadin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 07:23 Diamond wrote:On April 27 2013 07:17 SiskosGoatee wrote:
Again, the original does not get destroyed. Even if they make te map absolutely terrible. Even if they randomly decide to troll and replace every geyser with a watchtower. The original does not get destroyed. So I don't get te point.
The only thing that's left is pride. Which is just silly. Because orgs like MLG use fucked up versions and when they turn out they suck the mapper gets the blame and it reflects poorly on them. The ability to take and edit other peoples work is not a right, in fact if it wasn't for the insane Blizz EULA it would not even be legal due to IP laws. There is a reason these laws exist. You really can't claim IP on a melee map made with Blizzards tools and uploaded on their servers. Would be hard enough to do that with an arcade map. They would have the rights to use it with or without the EULA. But IP laws are quite complex hence why there is lawsuits about them all the time and also why Blizzard just makes sure to tell you that they got all the rights through the EULA. They are however working on a system that can secure players the rights to their maps. Unfortunally "Soon(TM)" doesn't quite cover the timeframe for this. + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBtgb1rc2xE Besides it would seem that the system is more suited for complex arcade maps. But it might end up covering melee maps too. I doubt it works that way. For instance. Blizzard lost out to Icefrog on Dota, even though it was made with the WC3 editor, Blizz doesn't own the rights to Dota, Icefrog does who sold it to Valve now I assume. They even have the name to it.
Stuff like this was tried before like manufacturers of typewriters saying that they owned everything written on the typewriter. It just doesn't hold up in court in general. The manufacturer of a tool you use to be create can't just claim the rights even if it's in the EULA. But hey, IANAL.
On April 28 2013 09:31 Timetwister22 wrote:
We're trying our best to improve the mapmaking scene, and then you come along and publicly smear us with the claim that everything we do is mostly for selfish reasons. No, you're not, you're trying to get your maps played. Hell, most people in this thread even admit this with a 'no shit sherlock' affix to it.
Well fuck you. Please leave this community, and don't come back. I really do not want someone like you around to be constantly and continuously bringing in such a negative tone. I'm not part of this community, I'm posting on this forum, there is a difference. I am neither allied nor affiliated with any 'community'.
And I'm free to post on this forum. Unless of course you feel dissenting views should not be allowed. Which is by the way exactly what it looks like. But I suppose calling it a 'negative tone' rather than a dissenting view makes it look a bit nicer.
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I've stayed out of this thread so far because, well, frankly, I don't really care to argue about what people's motivations are for making maps. I get that SiskosGoatee has a lot of weird ideas that he likes to press on, and maybe doesn't know when to back off, and that irks people the wrong way from time to time. But now two different members of the ESV mapmaking team have come on here, and just outright insulted him, and another hasn't exactly been conducting himself in the most exemplary manner possible. And I don't think it's cool for you guys to gang up on him like that just because his philosophical beliefs seem to mirror Ayn Rand's more than August Comte's.
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Yah for sure there's no need to drag anyone through the mud. Though I really question the point of the discussion.
Examine this:
Players in football, basketball, soccer, or Starcraft 2, if you like.. play because of:
1) it's fun
2) fame
3) money
Probably not in that order
Mapmakers make maps because of:
1) it's fun
2) the chance of getting a very small amount of fame
So if we're keeping score, mapmakers are actually the more "virtuous" people by far because they don't even get money or hardly any fame but they do it anyway
Shall we go into Starcraft 2 General and make a thread entitled "Starcraft 2 Players and the Capitalist Market of Fame and Money" ?
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EPT
