On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey.
If fame > fun is indeed a fact, since you so earnestly claim it to be, can I ask who displays this? If any names come to mind, when did they display this selfishness? How often do they do it today? With what maps does this selfishness sprout from? You are saying this is a critical issue, as in most or ALL of us are like this. You still are not giving any evidence whatsoever that this is the case (which it's not). This does not mean that there aren't moments when a mapmaker may feel like a badass with a particular skill or map, but that doesn't mean he isn't helpful to others in the community and works with them.
I will use myself as an example here. When Ohana got second place, I became a bit of a unintentional jerk with a bit of pride. Anyone including yourself could agree that this is normal. That attitude I mistakenly developed by human nature got me in the wrong boat with a few mappers and rightfully so - though i've gotten over it. Superouman and I achieved something from the TLMC1 that perhaps others won't get to experience for a long time (although, it seems there will be frequent TLMC's, so we'll see). It was the first real leap of faith in the map community, and it was a tremendous boost to personal morale and ego; to be part of the "first ones to do it." Now obviously some people handle their words and emotions differently, so let's use my case yet again. Yes, I was a bit prideful because it felt good that I contributed something. Yes, it was nice that I got dozens of people praising me for making a great map. Yes, I did feel like a badass. This sort of a feeling goes away after a while though once you've experienced the spotlight for a time being.
After a 6 month break I felt calm again and realized that I wanted to go back to mapmaking because... it's fun. The way the tools and creativity works in SC2 just somehow mesh well with my brain. I enjoy the colors of the editor, the tools to work with, and the creativity in its vast design. Do I want to win TLMC2? Yes, so does everyone else. That's called competition. Everyone wants to be the best. Nobody wants to win second place. To base your conclusion merely off this principle is another way of saying we are completely careless, which is totally ironic.
However, we are not careless in regards to the community. Just because we all want to win the first place prize doesn't mean we don't help each other and collaborate behind the scenes. For example, Last week I surrendered my latest map file to one of TPW mappers so he could make changes. And just the week before, lefix from TPW did map streaming and a handful of us tuned in to watch his creative mind go to work. Timmay is a constructive mapper, and he often tunes in to my map testing on stream and willingly helps test my maps. Ragoo may be a hard ass but sometimes we need those kinds of people to push us and to challenge ourselves. Scorp, who made Atlas, feels greatly about his achievement but he still helps other mappers and offers feedback. I, for one, don't technically post feedback in threads that much. It's not that I don't care or i'm "too good for it," I just am not that type of mapper. I like doing, not talking. Are you involved with mappers on skype? Because every day I see collaboration and suggestions going back and forth between them.
As for your earlier comment on how mappers "hide" their maps from the TLMC... I haven't shown my two submissions for this year's TLMC2, because 1) I'm not done yet with either of them, and 2) I want to feel confident that it's the final product i'm putting out. I have a bad habit of making a map thread and then changing a dozen things over the course of a week, including the pictures, so this time i'm waiting till almost the last minute. I have nothing to hide, and if you're not part of the community then you should know that I revealed my TLMC2 maps dozens of times on my map stream.
Your criticism to this map community is flawed and without cause. Anyone can have an opinion on something or someone and state it as a fact as long as you believe that another person in this world would agree with you. Besides, what is it to you? What are you getting from this argument? Why do you even care what our personal motivation is to make maps? I'm sure you're a nice guy in person, but on here you are rude and defensive. If mappers themselves can't convince you otherwise, then I don't know what will.
You can actually stay out of this topic if you don't like it, have you considered that?
I made a new topic just for that and all. It was also re-opened because different people messaged kadaver arguing there is a material need to discuss this topic. If you don't want to discuss it, hey fine, but seriously, at this point you are derailing the discussion, not I. You like to apparently invade productive discussions just tell participants to fuck of.
Productive. That's a big word.
Let me ask you this. 922 lenghty posts and what have you achieved?
In what terms have you actually succeeded in producing anything and what do you possibly think you can achieve with this thread? What is the best possible outcome for you and do you really, honestly think you can achieve it?
Cause I'll be honest with you, the only thing you have ever achieved with your posts on team liquid is to make people dislike you. Whatever time you have spent have been for nothing and whatever time you will spend be a waste.
Nobody listens to someone who argue just for the sake of argueing, and being on a forum on the internet you are extremely easy to ignore.
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey.
If fame > fun is indeed a fact, since you so earnestly claim it to be, can I ask who displays this? If any names come to mind, when did they display this selfishness? How often do they do it today? With what maps does this selfishness sprout from? You are saying this is a critical issue, as in most or ALL of us are like this. You still are not giving any evidence whatsoever that this is the case (which it's not). This does not mean that there aren't moments when a mapmaker may feel like a badass with a particular skill or map, but that doesn't mean he isn't helpful to others in the community and works with them.
I didn't say fame > fun. I said fame > helping the community.
Any anyone who is afraid of their idea being 'stolen' displays this, per definition. If someone else gets fame from your idea that is no detriment the community, hell, if he gets fame from your idea and not you, we can assume he executed the idea better. It is however detrimental to your fame.
I will use myself as an example here. When Ohana got second place, I became a bit of a unintentional jerk with a bit of pride. Anyone including yourself could agree that this is normal.
It is normal, but normal is not an excuse.
That attitude I mistakenly developed by human nature got me in the wrong boat with a few mappers and rightfully so - though i've gotten over it. Superouman and I achieved something from the TLMC1 that perhaps others won't get to experience for a long time (although, it seems there will be frequent TLMC's, so we'll see). It was the first real leap of faith in the map community, and it was a tremendous boost to personal morale and ego; to be part of the "first ones to do it." Now obviously some people handle their words and emotions differently, so let's use my case yet again. Yes, I was a bit prideful because it felt good that I contributed something. Yes, it was nice that I got dozens of people praising me for making a great map. Yes, I did feel like a badass. This sort of a feeling goes away after a while though once you've experienced the spotlight for a time being.
After a 6 month break I felt calm again and realized that I wanted to go back to mapmaking because... it's fun. The way the tools and creativity works in SC2 just somehow mesh well with my brain. I enjoy the colors of the editor, the tools to work with, and the creativity in its vast design. Do I want to win TLMC2? Yes, so does everyone else. That's called competition. Everyone wants to be the best. Nobody wants to win second place. To base your conclusion merely off this principle is another way of saying we are completely careless, which is totally ironic.
However, we are not careless in regards to the community. Just because we all want to win the first place prize doesn't mean we don't help each other and collaborate behind the scenes. For example, Last week I surrendered my latest map file to one of TPW mappers so he could make changes. And just the week before, lefix from TPW did map streaming and a handful of us tuned in to watch his creative mind go to work. Timmay is a constructive mapper, and he often tunes in to my map testing on stream and willingly helps test my maps. Ragoo may be a hard ass but sometimes we need those kinds of people to push us and to challenge ourselves. Scorp, who made Atlas, feels greatly about his achievement but he still helps other mappers and offers feedback. I, for one, don't technically post feedback in threads that much. It's not that I don't care or i'm "too good for it," I just am not that type of mapper. I like doing, not talking. Are you involved with mappers on skype? Because every day I see collaboration and suggestions going back and forth between them.
As for your earlier comment on how mappers "hide" their maps from the TLMC... I haven't shown my two submissions for this year's TLMC2, because 1) I'm not done yet with either of them, and 2) I want to feel confident that it's the final product i'm putting out. I have a bad habit of making a map thread and then changing a dozen things over the course of a week, including the pictures, so this time i'm waiting till almost the last minute. I have nothing to hide, and if you're not part of the community then you should know that I revealed my TLMC2 maps dozens of times on my map stream.
Your criticism to this map community is flawed and without cause. Anyone can have an opinion on something or someone and state it as a fact as long as you believe that another person in this world would agree with you. Besides, what is it to you? What are you getting from this argument? Why do you even care what our personal motivation is to make maps? I'm sure you're a nice guy in person, but on here you are rude and defensive. If mappers themselves can't convince you otherwise, then I don't know what will.
I agree with all this if I would've said that fame > fun. Which I didn't. I don't deny mappers want to have fun. I said that for a large part, they are willing to put the success of their own maps above the success of the mapping community as a whole.
You ask me to argue that, I've done it countless times. Again, if one is afraid of one's ideas being stolen, then one puts ones own personal success and fame above the procreation of ideas throughout the mapping scene. That's just basic logic.
Let me ask you a question then:
What do you think most people here would do if they had a choice (and no one would know which they picked)
A: 4 new community maps get into the map pool, none of which you made B: 3 new get into the map pool, one of which you made.
I'm pretty sure except for the loss of face and anger (and no one would find out), the majority of people here would rather have their own map in the pool and 2 maps made by different people. And that is exactly what I'm talking about.
You can actually stay out of this topic if you don't like it, have you considered that?
I made a new topic just for that and all. It was also re-opened because different people messaged kadaver arguing there is a material need to discuss this topic. If you don't want to discuss it, hey fine, but seriously, at this point you are derailing the discussion, not I. You like to apparently invade productive discussions just tell participants to fuck of.
Productive. That's a big word.
The discussion was asked to be re-opened, in fact, it continued with 4 different people in PM. This proves there is a material need slash willingness for people to discuss this topic. You just aren't one of them. You seem to be more willing to discuss that it shouldn't be discussed. I'm frankly not but I tend to respond to people.
Let me ask you this. 922 lenghty posts and what have you achieved?
Nothing with you or other people who limit themselves to just insulting and not actually debating. I will say that the discussions with Barrin or other people who actually discuss the topic rather than packaged personal insults have made me think.
In what terms have you actually succeeded in producing anything and what do you possibly think you can achieve with this thread? What is the best possible outcome for you and do you really, honestly think you can achieve it?
The best possible outcome for me is if people would stop the echo chamber and start thinking for themselves rather than assuming things because they are repeated over and over. And I've convinced some people of the idea that oft repeated things people just assumed about maps may not always be true. Convincing all is unrealistic but it is my ultimate goal.
Cause I'll be honest with you, the only thing you have ever achieved with your posts on team liquid is to make people dislike you. Whatever time you have spent have been for nothing and whatever time you will spend be a waste.
Completely sure that isn't true. A variety of people have in fact told me that my criticism on the staleness of map variety has inspired them to try more radical ideas.
Nobody listens to someone who argue just for the sake of argueing, and being on a forum on the internet you are extremely easy to ignore.
Again, then how do youe xplain that people specifically asked cadaver to re-open this thread.
You don't care aboutt his topic, that's fine, I have no idea why you post int his thread. You're mostly clutter. You're derailing here. You're not discussing the topic at hand, you're discussing me and my motivations which is derailing. I'm just answering to it which admittedly I probably shouldn't and I am accomplice to derailing in some way.
I don't deny mappers want to have fun. I said that for a large part, they are willing to put the success of their own maps above the success of the mapping community as a whole.
I normally ignore your comment, but right now I feel like you are attacking the credibility of us map maker and you are wrong... When someone of the mapping community is able to get one of his map in a tournament we are quite happy because it means that we are progressing in having a better map pool and diversity. Plus it creates visibility for all of us. I think everyone was very sad to hear that IPL 6 was cancelled because we(community) had a couple of maps that was going to be used by them. Also like ironman said we help each other a lot when we map on skype.
I don't deny mappers want to have fun. I said that for a large part, they are willing to put the success of their own maps above the success of the mapping community as a whole.
I normally ignore your comment, but right now I feel like you are attacking the credibility of us map maker and you are wrong... When someone of the mapping community is able to get one of his map in a tournament we are quite happy because it means that we are progressing in having a better map pool and diversity. Plus it creates visibility for all of us. I think everyone was very sad to hear that IPL 6 was cancelled because we(community) had a couple of maps that was going to be used by them. Also like ironman said we help each other a lot when we map on skype.
Again, if that were true, why would anyone keep their work secret? Explain that.
THe only reason to keep your work secret is to stop another from getting acclaim with your idea. For the community itself it doesn't matter who gets the acclaim. It does matter for you though.
So again, people put their own acclaim and fame before the community. Which has been exactly my point from the start which started this debate in my response to Fatam who argued that people should keep their ideas secret lest they be stolen. A notion which to some extend offends me.
On April 29 2013 02:22 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, if that were true, why would anyone keep their work secret? Explain that.
THe only reason to keep your work secret is to stop another from getting acclaim with your idea. For the community itself it doesn't matter who gets the acclaim. It does matter for you though.
So again, people put their own acclaim and fame before the community. Which has been exactly my point from the start which started this debate in my response to Fatam who argued that people should keep their ideas secret lest they be stolen. A notion which to some extend offends me.
We don't keep our map secret... If you were on the skype channel you would see that we show our maps to everyone and we ask for comment on what we should work on to make the map better. I don't know how you could read that people put their own acclaim and fame before the community in what I said. For me when someone is able to get is map example: Scorp with Atlas in the GSL, I'm very happy to see that after so many month we get to see a new map of the TL community being played in a big tournament.
On April 29 2013 02:22 SiskosGoatee wrote: Again, if that were true, why would anyone keep their work secret? Explain that.
THe only reason to keep your work secret is to stop another from getting acclaim with your idea. For the community itself it doesn't matter who gets the acclaim. It does matter for you though.
So again, people put their own acclaim and fame before the community. Which has been exactly my point from the start which started this debate in my response to Fatam who argued that people should keep their ideas secret lest they be stolen. A notion which to some extend offends me.
We don't keep our map secret... If you were on the skype channel you would see that we show our maps to everyone and we ask for comment on what we should work on to make the map better. I don't know how you could read that people put their own acclaim and fame before the community in what I said. For me when someone is able to get is map example: Scorp with Atlas in the GSL, I'm very happy to see that after so many month we get to see a new map of the TL community being played in a big tournament.
Yes, if it gets in a tournament without directly detrimenting you. But, again, what would you choose if you could, your map, or that of scorp, even though you know that Scorp's map is just a little bit better?
I'm sure there are some people who'd still pick Scorp's, but for the majority, I don't buy it.
And I also don't buy that people are completely fine with others running with their ideas. They want their credit for it.
On April 29 2013 02:37 SiskosGoatee wrote: And I also don't buy that people are completely fine with others running with their ideas. They want their credit for it.
I don't know at what point this idea of stealing ideas became foremost in your mind, but you seem to be the only one really occupied with it, looking at the natural expansions in your maps. It seriously isn't a thing. You wouldn't know though, because you're not in TL's map chat, and you're not in TL's map chat because of shit like this.
On April 29 2013 02:37 SiskosGoatee wrote: And I also don't buy that people are completely fine with others running with their ideas. They want their credit for it.
I don't know at what point this idea of stealing ideas became foremost in your mind, but you seem to be the only one really occupied with it, looking at the natural expansions in your maps. It seriously isn't a thing. You wouldn't know though, because you're not in TL's map chat, and you're not in TL's map chat because of shit like this.
It's what started the discussion?
What started the discussion was Fatam saying peolpe shouldn't post their half completed maps lest people steal their ideas and my commenting on that.
But hey whatever, you're not actually here to debate the topic at hand, you're here to find a way to personally insult me all the while complaining that I'm derailing discussions.
Like I said a thousnad times, if this discussion has no meaning to you, fine, great, that's your prerogative. But then just don't open the topic, it's really easy you know, far easier than opening the topic, one click less.
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line.
That is incredibly hypocritical. I have no problem with you having different views. Absolutely zero problem with that. However, when you come out to publicly criticize mapmakers for things that are simply not true, then that is no different from me calling you an asshole. You are harming us with your opinion, why can't we harm you with ours? You are simply being hypocritical.
Opinions should not be posted unless they are harmless or bring about something beneficial. You rarely see people posting on the tournament overview threads with things like "OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3" or "Terran SO imba gg everyone else", and when they do, they usually get moderated. Instead, you see people post things such as "Gogo EG-TL!" or "Good luck Naniwa vs Innovation!" Point being, keep you opinion to yourself unless it's harmless or brings something beneficial. Your opinion of mapmakers being all for pride, fame, and selfish reasons is none of those things. It only makes us look bad and drags us through the dirt. Thus, I have every right to call you an asshole, as you are doing nothing different.
Also, I would like to leave you with a quote from the TL.net Ten Commandments:
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line.
That is incredibly hypocritical. I have no problem with you having different views. Absolutely zero problem with that. However, when you come out to publicly criticize mapmakers for things that are simply not true, then that is no different from me calling you an asshole. You are harming us with your opinion, why can't we harm you with ours? You are simply being hypocritical.
Because I don't start a post with 'You're an arsehole' when it's not material to the point I'm making, it's a disjoint ad-hominem, nothing more. In this case calling peolpe selfish is material to the point I'm arguing, You however are just venting steam, not contributing to the discussion, derailing threads and simply posting in a topic to flame the OP.
Opinions should not be posted unless they are harmless or bring about something beneficial.
Great, you can no never criticize Blizzard again because your opinions are harmful to Blizzard.
Can you truly not see that banning criticism is a ridiculous road to take? But then again, it's not criticism you want banned, it's criticism towards you and your community. I've been no more critical of the mapping community than you have of Blizzard and MLG. The difference is that my opinion is dissident within the mapping community.
You rarely see people posting on the tournament overview threads with things like "OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3" or "Terran SO imba gg everyone else", and when they do, they usually get moderated. Instead, you see people post things such as "Gogo EG-TL!" or "Good luck Naniwa vs Innovation!" Point being, keep you opinion to yourself unless it's harmless or brings something beneficial. Your opinion of mapmakers being all for pride, fame, and selfish reasons is none of those things. It only makes us look bad and drags us through the dirt. Thus, I have every right to call you an asshole, as you are doing nothing different.
People are well within the rules of TL to criticize Flash and other pros if they do it civilly. I have remained civil. You have not.
"OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3"
Is not civil, however saying 'I really don't like Flash' play style because ... and I think it is boring because ...' is extremely constructive and well allowed within the TL rules. And that is exactly what I have been doing to the mapping community. Yes, I am highly critical about how it is run but I have never failed to be civil and I have always duly argued my point. Far more duly than you ever have.
Also, I would like to leave you with a quote from the TL.net Ten Commandments:
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
Then stay out of my topic. You're ruining the fun, not I. You're not even discussing the actual topic, you're discussing me.
And as I said before. I've been no more critical of how the mapping scene is currently going than you have been of MLG and Blizzard so please give me a break. Your only quarrel is that this time you, or rather, a scene you consider yourself part of is being the object of criticism. you're completely fine with people calling Blizzard or MLG 'idiots' without as much of an argument.
On April 29 2013 01:02 SiskosGoatee wrote: Have I ever resorted to verbally abusive language? Have I ever started a post with something alone the lines of 'You're just an arsehole', no, I have not. I've been completely proper in pretty much everything I posted here. But hey, it's a dissenting view. What's more, it's a critical view on how things are currently done. I guess that makes me an arse hey. Not the fact that you're basically frothing foam out of your mouth and lowering yourself to personal insults. That's all fine as long as you follow the echo chamber and stay in line.
That is incredibly hypocritical. I have no problem with you having different views. Absolutely zero problem with that. However, when you come out to publicly criticize mapmakers for things that are simply not true, then that is no different from me calling you an asshole. You are harming us with your opinion, why can't we harm you with ours? You are simply being hypocritical.
Because I don't start a post with 'You're an arsehole' when it's not material to the point I'm making, it's a disjoint ad-hominem, nothing more. In this case calling peolpe selfish is material to the point I'm arguing, You however are just venting steam, not contributing to the discussion, derailing threads and simply posting in a topic to flame the OP.
Opinions should not be posted unless they are harmless or bring about something beneficial.
Great, you can no never criticize Blizzard again because your opinions are harmful to Blizzard.
Can you truly not see that banning criticism is a ridiculous road to take? But then again, it's not criticism you want banned, it's criticism towards you and your community. I've been no more critical of the mapping community than you have of Blizzard and MLG. The difference is that my opinion is dissident within the mapping community.
You rarely see people posting on the tournament overview threads with things like "OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3" or "Terran SO imba gg everyone else", and when they do, they usually get moderated. Instead, you see people post things such as "Gogo EG-TL!" or "Good luck Naniwa vs Innovation!" Point being, keep you opinion to yourself unless it's harmless or brings something beneficial. Your opinion of mapmakers being all for pride, fame, and selfish reasons is none of those things. It only makes us look bad and drags us through the dirt. Thus, I have every right to call you an asshole, as you are doing nothing different.
People are well within the rules of TL to criticize Flash and other pros if they do it civilly. I have remained civil. You have not.
"OMG I hate Flash so much I hope he gets destroyed 0-3"
Is not civil, however saying 'I really don't like Flash' play style because ... and I think it is boring because ...' is extremely constructive and well allowed within the TL rules. And that is exactly what I have been doing to the mapping community. Yes, I am highly critical about how it is run but I have never failed to be civil and I have always duly argued my point. Far more duly than you ever have.
Also, I would like to leave you with a quote from the TL.net Ten Commandments:
10. THOU SHALL HAVE FUN It's a fun site with fun people. Have fun with it. Enjoy it. Make others happy. Be happy. Avoid being negative. We don't expect you to be Pollyanna, but users who are consistently negative will draw the ire of their peers and site staff alike. No one likes people who have nothing but bad things to say all the time. Heed the admonition of Oscar Wilde: some people bring happiness wherever they go, others whenever they go.
Then stay out of my topic. You're ruining the fun, not I. You're not even discussing the actual topic, you're discussing me.
And as I said before. I've been no more critical of how the mapping scene is currently going than you have been of MLG and Blizzard so please give me a break. Your only quarrel is that this time you, or rather, a scene you consider yourself part of is being the object of criticism. you're completely fine with people calling Blizzard or MLG 'idiots' without as much of an argument.
Having a negative opinion toward things Blizzard is actually doing is fine, because there is a real problem at hand that needs to be fixed, and there is clear evidence of this issue. When it comes to this topic, it is simply you dragging mapmakers through dirt without any evidence of a real issue at hand. You are not being critical of a particular problem, because there isn't a problem. You are just staying your opinion of the sake of being negative, and that's it. That is what I mean by being beneficial or harmless.
EPT
