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[M] (2) Guillotine

Forum Index > SC2 Maps & Custom Games
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TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-09 02:29:23
March 24 2013 02:20 GMT
#1
Guillotine


By TheFish

124x128

Published on NA, EU


Featured in RSL V!

Vods
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WhiteRa v Feast from Ritmix RSL gNations (Spanish cast)


HyuN v Symbol RSL V (Starts at 59:00)
http://www.twitch.tv/esltaiwan/b/427544173


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Discussion
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Had an idea for an unusual layout and wanted to try it out. Then I got sucked in by the new HotS assets. The defining feature of this map is of course the natural expansion, which is an in-base expansion where your Town Hall can be used to help wall off a double-wide main ramp.

I also wanted to have close by air main bases. I think this could be interesting especially with airplay in PvX and with speedivacs. The Xel'Naga tower provides a good vantage point to stop incoming drops to your 4th and 5th base. Also important is the main attack path, which is split down the middle with a ramp and LOS blocker.


The natural expansion

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I added rocks so the choke is slightly smaller than a normal 2wide ramp. I wanted players to be able to 1gate expand, but at the cost of the natural only being 6m1hyg.

This enables the following walloffs. You can get the Protoss and Terran ones up by about 3:30, which is also the approximate timing that zerglings from a 10 pool would arrive at the bottom of your ramp. A 7 pool would be harder to hold and would hit around 3:05.


Protoss
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Terran
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Zerg
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Gameplay Stats

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Size: 124 x 128
nat-nat: 42 sec
Tileset: Kaldir & Zerus
Lighting: Iceworld Night
Bases: 12
XNTs: 2
Collapsible Rocks: 2
Dustructible Rocks: 0
Mineral & Gas counts: 8x 8m2g, 4x 6m1hyg


Screenshots

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~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Thalandros
Profile Blog Joined July 2012
Netherlands1151 Posts
March 24 2013 02:29 GMT
#2
That's a very interesting look at things. Looks like a nice change, too! Thought those debris under the ramp might be a bit strange for attacks and promote a more turtley style of play. Looks interesting though! Also nice name.
|| ''I think we have all experienced passion that is not in any sense reasonable.'' ||
moskonia
Profile Joined January 2011
Israel1448 Posts
March 24 2013 03:57 GMT
#3
Nice 1000 posts use

Overall the map seems OK, I don't know if I like the natural, but its just a wait and see deal, later bases are all pretty standard.
Veloh15
Profile Joined January 2012
United States161 Posts
March 24 2013 04:06 GMT
#4
I think that it really discourages in kind of early aggression. The fact that the command center is required for a wall off really forces people to early expand. Still its a really interesting concept and we'll have to wait and see how it turns out!
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
March 24 2013 04:15 GMT
#5
Its an interesting map, but I don't really like the layout, since it seems to make a variety of pressure builds really strong. First of all, ultra fast reaper play would be very strong, due to the close distances, and the extremely large amounts of cliff surface. Apart from that, fast pool builds would also be very difficult to hold obviously. Also, command center/nexus/hatchery sniping, and gas geyser harassment might be a little too prevalent at the natural, since it looks like you can shoot at it from the low ground, forcing the defenders to the low ground to prevent it. The fact that in HotS, photon overcharge exists makes this natural set up a bit better, but it is still very vulnerable. The natural just seems too easy to kill.
SidianTheBard
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2474 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-03-24 05:17:21
March 24 2013 05:15 GMT
#6
Unlike many of the others, I really like the overall layout of the map. Close by air mains are neat because we don't see that very often. I also like that as you expand to the 3rd and 4th you are expanding farther away by ground, but still close by air. I could definitely see a lot of turrets/spores/cannons required to protect your main, especially with how strong air is in HotS.

My biggest concern, like many others is the in-base natural. While it's a neat feature, it basically means you have to Fast expand or else you can't wall off. It doesn't effect terran as much since they can lift off their buildings but with protoss or zerg, they have to FE or else they'll block it with another building.

My other concern is wondering if there's a way to make pathing a little more interesting because at the moment you just want to move in 1 straight line, especially from nat to nat. There's a couple high elevation changes but otherwise it's just one straight line. Not saying it's bad, but there really isn't a reason to attack from a different path. For instance, even getting rid of that giant 5x wide ramp in the middle and just making the two side ramps bigger to compensate for that might make the pathing more interesting.

Great job though! You'll have to post some replays/feedback you get regarding that in-base natural design because it definitely is new and could result in some interesting gameplay.
Creator of Abyssal Reef, Ascension to Aiur, Battle on the Boardwalk, Habitation Station, Honorgrounds, IPL Darkness Falls, King's Cove, Korhal Carnage Knockout & Moonlight Madness.
Insomni7
Profile Joined June 2011
667 Posts
March 24 2013 05:35 GMT
#7
Oh wow, ive just been inspired to get back into making maps. This is so cool.
Never Forget.
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
March 24 2013 11:17 GMT
#8
The ramp expansion is true innovation. The rest of the map is kind of ho hum, just seems like a lot of highly connected terrain (minimizing the meaningfulness of anything in particular) and some bases. Still and all, its pretty cool.
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
March 24 2013 16:05 GMT
#9
i really like this.

my only qualm is that it seems kind of small. maybe stretch it out, and you could fit one more base.
starleague forever
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
March 24 2013 16:20 GMT
#10
I really like most of it.
But I believe it is much too hard to attack a two-basing player
-) high ground advantage
-) part of the wall is a CC/Nexus/Hatch - which you cannot break through fast
-) ranged units/static D can defend from the side as well, which gives the defender a huge concave compared to the attacker

So: I like the ramp expansion. But I think the setup around it makes it too good. (like imagine the same layout but without high ground; or with a backdoor. Or a more exposed ramp)
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
March 24 2013 19:18 GMT
#11
I did toy with the idea of a 3 wide ramp instead of 2 at the nat. I decided against it because of the strength of fast pool builds on small 2player maps. I'm sure there are other, perhaps better ramp configurations that could potentially work using a similar concept. another idea I had was to have a backdoor ramp that can be blocked off completely by either collapsible rocks or by taking the half base at the location.

Updated to 1.1, some polishing.
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12022 Posts
March 24 2013 19:23 GMT
#12
On March 25 2013 01:20 Big J wrote:
I really like most of it.
But I believe it is much too hard to attack a two-basing player
-) high ground advantage
-) part of the wall is a CC/Nexus/Hatch - which you cannot break through fast
-) ranged units/static D can defend from the side as well, which gives the defender a huge concave compared to the attacker

So: I like the ramp expansion. But I think the setup around it makes it too good. (like imagine the same layout but without high ground; or with a backdoor. Or a more exposed ramp)


Is that really a massive deal though? If they're turtling super hard on 2 bases you can just expand freely.
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Fatam
Profile Joined June 2012
1986 Posts
March 24 2013 19:42 GMT
#13
You could always make the ramp bigger and put rocks on part of it. I personally think it's fine as-is (if someone wants to "turtle" on 1.75 bases.. so what), but it's a possibility.
Search "FTM" in SC2 | Latest Maps: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/528528-2-ftm-siegfried-station http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/525489-2-ftm-crimson-aftermath http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/524737-2-ftm-grime
gronnelg
Profile Joined December 2010
Norway354 Posts
March 25 2013 08:01 GMT
#14
Wow! That's a pretty damned out-of-the-box kind of map!
Hope this gets taken into some tournament. Love the high amount of expands as well :D
Lulzez || My stream: http://www.twitch.tv/gronnelg
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
March 25 2013 08:16 GMT
#15
On March 25 2013 04:42 Fatam wrote:
You could always make the ramp bigger and put rocks on part of it. I personally think it's fine as-is (if someone wants to "turtle" on 1.75 bases.. so what), but it's a possibility.


Hm, right. It's only 1.75 bases. Didn't really include that in my thoughts... hm... Then I guess it's not that bad.
My main concerns where mutalisks in ZvZ and bio in TvZ, TvP.
Like, in ZvZ I don't think you can profit from taking a fast third right now after you see that you have mapcontrol, as it will just result in faster/more mutalisks for your opponent, which usually means you lose.
And in bio TvP and TvZ a Terran could get away with a third CC way too easily, because roach, baneling and gateway aggression/allins all seem very weak in that setup.
But yeah, with only 1.75 bases this might be less of a problem, as you profit more from the 3rd expansion.

One more thought: 1/1/1? Isn't the nexus too exposed to tanks and banshees in that scenario? And the ramp workes in the Terran favor?


Again, great work overall! Really like the innovative concept, the expension setup and the straight pushing lane. Just some concerns on my mind.
TheFish7
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States2824 Posts
March 27 2013 19:25 GMT
#16
I'm sure there could be some strong timing attacks that would be hard to hold. 1/1/1 might be one, but I would also be more worried about a 4gate blink stalker all-in. I think the Planetary Nexus ability would be key in holding a 1/1/1, the 4gate would leave your own main ramp open to counter attacks since you are dumping gas into stalkers instead of sentries, with which you need twice as many to forcefield off your main. Going for a fast 3rd CC could be an issue with tanks and widow mines, but you have the disadvantage of 2 fewer mineral fields to burn through with MULEs. Also, your natural will mine out faster than normal on this map, making it harder to sustain 3 base continuous aggression FlaSh-style. Drops could be a problem with the close mains, but it is even easier than normal to move units from main to nat, plus you have towers in key drop-spotting locations.

It might be very hard to break a turtling player's natural with mass roach or hellion marauder, but you do have the ability to go for their town hall or their very exposed mineral and gas line instead. As I state in the OP, you can wall off completely before a 10 pool hits, but that might mean that a 6 or 7 pool breaks the map. A map that gave me the idea for a double wide ramp at the main was Sand Canyon, the 4v4 map. Its possible to defend a 7 pool on this map in close positions by opening 12/12 rax/gate every game - this is not ideal, but certainly doesn't put one so far behind that its not workable. Really as far as I can tell, the only matchup that might break the map is PvZ with early pool openers since Terran can move their buildings.

As far as the pathing being boring and the map too small, I hear you. I felt it was necessary to go with a smaller map as a trade-off for the almost free natural, and also to encourage players to attack on one base instead of pidgeonholing them into always fast expanding. The boring layout was on purpose as well since I wanted to go as "standard" as possible for bases 3-6.

So anyway that was my thought process. What the map really needs is people to test build orders out, so if anyone gets the chance, please let me know how it goes
~ ~ <°)))><~ ~ ~
EatThePath
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States3943 Posts
March 27 2013 20:01 GMT
#17
Blink will be a problem because of the vast surface area available, an a double ramp is nice for blink too. You don't need a wall to hold a 6/7 pool so that's fine. And the zerg can't really do a mass ling followup so the defender will be able to take their expansion straight away, which is pretty bad for the zerg.

If anyone wants to play I will demonstrate these things. ^^
Comprehensive strategic intention: DNE
lil emo
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
France109 Posts
March 28 2013 12:46 GMT
#18
aaaaaaaaaaaaa I just named a map guillotine aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
well played
:7

on topic: nice map (purple mmmmm)
never was so much owed by so many to so few (W Churchil)
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