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On December 20 2010 20:51 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 20:41 StylishVODs wrote:
Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it... He lost to two no names in straight up games. It is not the end of the world but of course it should count on the power rank ffs! I think PR becomes more and more conservative for every month - when I first came to TL, PR was alot more about the month at hand.
You joined during JWD's power ranks. He was much more this-month's-results oriented than is normal for the Power Rank.
PR is generally supposed to be a judgment of which players are currently the strongest.
That said, getting chased out of the MSL by Ssak and Classic is pretty awful, and Flash has generally had a patchy December. Of course, he also lost only one game in October-November, and won double gold medals in August-September, and was dominating hard for many months before that. He's earned some benefit of the doubt. (Although I'd JD #1 over Flash if JD weren't also facing bumps lately, since JD was almost as strong as Flash for Flash's entire dominant run.)
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When I compare Jaedong and Flash, the way I see it is that one of them has 2/3 goodlike matchups and the other one has 3/3. In my subjective view, Jaedongs vT has been getting worse since quite some time now (probably since he beat Flash in PowerOutage MSL). His good zvt's are still a piece of art that no zerg even comes close to, but damn he is doing so much weird shit. One 4pool is enough for one Bo5, sometimes you need a fighting unit before your 8th hatch is coming up, building expansions towards the terrans attack-path is bad... and if you wanna all-in, maybe don't get it scoutet by an SCV.
There is always a very thin line between greedyness and brilliance in Jaedongs games and walking that line succesfully is one of the things that make him so great, but since quite some time his game-sense is often a bit off in zvt. It is especially astonishing since he plays very well from behind (i.e. the game against Flash on Fighting Spirit in the last MSL finals) and he wouldn't need to be so super greedy or hoping for two consecutive 4 pools to work out. Maybe zvt is the hardest match-up in the game (protoss probably won't agree) but the way he loses, you cannot blame it on imbalance (at least if it's not vs mech on Polaris Rhapsody^^).
Ok, that was just a little rant... regarding the PR, unless Jaedongs next few weeks are flawless and Flash drops out of OSL, Flash should not lose #1. We had this discussion a couple of months ago. Back then I felt Flash got too much leeway for his 7-8 month (or whatever it was), but tearing up SPL + OSL plus the background of holding all possible titles there are right now, he should get away with dropping out of one league for once. It's not like he is slumping in any way, he just had a bad day and this time someone was able to take advantage of it. Of course, if he gets hyuked out of the OSL, then it is a completely different story.
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flash won osl/ msl/wcg/pl all in 1 season, seriously dropping out of the msl in that fasion is prety bad indeed but untill jeadong doesnt look like a worthy contender to win both leauges and get some stuff done in proleauge (i know hard with such a team) I see no reason to remove flash from his top slot.
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On December 20 2010 20:51 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 20:41 StylishVODs wrote:
Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it... He lost to two no names in straight up games. It is not the end of the world but of course it should count on the power rank ffs! I think PR becomes more and more conservative for every month - when I first came to TL, PR was alot more about the month at hand.
Yeah it should count. How much though... with the background flash has atm, being bonjwa and all, should one missed dual final appearence be enough to say that someone else is better than him at bw right now?
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On December 20 2010 20:51 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 20:41 StylishVODs wrote:
Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it... He lost to two no names in straight up games. It is not the end of the world but of course it should count on the power rank ffs! I think PR becomes more and more conservative for every month - when I first came to TL, PR was alot more about the month at hand.
The very first PR was every bit as conservative as this. Bisu didn't surpass Savior in PR until after Savior had not only lost MSL, but lost OGN All Star against NaDa, and NaDa didn't surpass Savior until the next month when Savior lost the only two games he played, but was still ranked #3.
Granted, back then far fewer games were played by month, so making the ranking based on monthly accomplishments alone made even less sense back then than it does today.
On December 20 2010 22:00 Holgerius wrote:
Fact; JD has 3 wins in his last 10 ZvTs. Tough opponents, sure, but he is not looking unbeatable by any means.
Flash still deserves a fuckton of benefit of doubt.
Stats always need to be taken in context. Despite his "horrible" record in ZvT, JD is ranked #2 in vs Terran ELO (#1 ZvT). It just so happens that almost all his games recently have been against the #1 and #2 TvZ players in the world, and yes he lost his more recent games against them, but he's also beaten them during the same time period: right before MSL finals (2-3), JD beat Flash in WCG Korea and right before that he beat Light (3-2 and 2-1).
1 page of comments ago I said there's no reason to doubt Flash yet. Bear in mind that I said that even including the MSL games, I think Flash deserved the #1 on this particular PR. But there's also no reason to doubt JD. If JD does mop up in both individual leagues and proleague, it really would not be unreasonable to give him #1 on PR.
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 20 2010 08:37 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 08:15 DracoVolantus wrote:On December 20 2010 05:31 StylishVODs wrote:On December 18 2010 14:42 MuffinDude wrote:
SC2 is a much faster game than SC1. Watching a BO7 of BW will be long and tiring and not enjoyable. BO5 is fine. I also think that part of the issue here is that sc2 players doesn't know the game as well as bw-players yet (ofcourse) so they really don't know how to handle the different aggressive openings yet. Most games are so short nowadays but I'm guessing they'll get longer and longer as the strategies develops. Bo5 is best for BW imo. Makes every game enough important to win while it still is enough games to get in mind games and usually to determine the better player. You have no idea how it more than Bo5 would affect ego, You can't say someone was broken by all-in in fifth game in first 3 minutes. I'm talking You have no idea, how playing Bo5 4 days stright would improve the quality of games. Most people would enjoy it less but it's not the point, are money from people watching games live, and they don't have enough spirit to watch it, do they? Please, you have to fix your english, your posts are mostly unreadable. You cannot argue with someone you don't even understand.
I was drunk, sorry, won't write drunk again :X
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On December 21 2010 00:35 Mortality wrote:
Stats always need to be taken in context. Despite his "horrible" record in ZvT, JD is ranked #2 in vs Terran ELO (#1 ZvT). It just so happens that almost all his games recently have been against the #1 and #2 TvZ players in the world, and yes he lost his more recent games against them, but he's also beaten them during the same time period: right before MSL finals (2-3), JD beat Flash in WCG Korea and right before that he beat Light (3-2 and 2-1).
Yeah, and it should also be said that in his last 20 TvZ's against players beside Flash and Light he is 17-3, with 2 of the losses (and 4 of the wins) coming from at the time #3 TvZ ELO Sea.
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In other words, JD is still the favourite over pretty much anyone regardless of map or match-up, with the exception for Flash. 
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On December 21 2010 02:42 Cpadolf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 00:35 Mortality wrote:
Stats always need to be taken in context. Despite his "horrible" record in ZvT, JD is ranked #2 in vs Terran ELO (#1 ZvT). It just so happens that almost all his games recently have been against the #1 and #2 TvZ players in the world, and yes he lost his more recent games against them, but he's also beaten them during the same time period: right before MSL finals (2-3), JD beat Flash in WCG Korea and right before that he beat Light (3-2 and 2-1). Yeah, and it should also be said that in his last 20 TvZ's against players beside Flash and Light he is 17-3, with 2 of the losses (and 4 of the wins) coming from at the time #3 TvZ ELO Sea.
Come to think of it, if we take out his games vs Flash and Light, his ZvT record overall is at 151-72 (67.71 %), compared with 62.23 %. The massive number of games against those two lately have driven down his ZvT percentage quite a bit.
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On December 21 2010 02:51 Holgerius wrote:In other words, JD is still the favourite over pretty much anyone regardless of map or match-up, with the exception for Flash.
And Stork, oh man, Stork is favorite against Jaedong atm lol
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Yeah... I don't really know how but Stork just has JD by the balls. As long as it's not a Bo5 anyway.
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when was this written? OO Why on earth is Stork only on #6?
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On December 20 2010 20:51 Elroi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2010 20:41 StylishVODs wrote:
Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it... He lost to two no names in straight up games. It is not the end of the world but of course it should count on the power rank ffs! I think PR becomes more and more conservative for every month - when I first came to TL, PR was alot more about the month at hand.
At this point, it's not so much about "Is Flash still #1?" - though in fact Flash is still playing like a #1, even if he's not near his godjwa status of a couple months ago. Okay, you could put him at #2 - but see below. Yeah, the MSL was bad. (In Flash's defense, Classic was one of last year's best rookies and is now on a team with another very good Terran (Bogus), and Ssak is probably this year's best rookie and has fantasy & oov to practice with. They're "no names", but not total scrubs.)
Even if you think Flash isn't really "#1" anymore, what it's really about is, "Is someone else playing well enough to topple him?" Apart from a couple random PRs, #1 usually gets that much benefit of the doubt - and who else is there? Jaedong keeps losing ZvT. Kal's inconsistent in proleague. If I had to pick a #1 based on recent results only, it would be fantasy or Shine (and probably Shine) - and while I'd love to see what the comments would say, I can't justify that big a jump, compared to the way the PR normally works.
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Honestly though guys, if Flash was gonna get knocked out of the MSL I'd consider it a worse sign if it happened in a series. He lost 2 Bo1 mirror-matches that he was the favorite in, but is there anyone in the world you'd bet on beating him in a Bo5?
I remember someone saying that their personal guideline was "If aliens landed and we had to choose one person to play a BoX with humanity at stake, who would you choose?" While it might be a bit overly dramatic, I find it hard to believe anyone posting in this thread would choose anyone other than Flash today.
Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
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On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
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On December 21 2010 02:55 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 02:42 Cpadolf wrote:On December 21 2010 00:35 Mortality wrote:
Stats always need to be taken in context. Despite his "horrible" record in ZvT, JD is ranked #2 in vs Terran ELO (#1 ZvT). It just so happens that almost all his games recently have been against the #1 and #2 TvZ players in the world, and yes he lost his more recent games against them, but he's also beaten them during the same time period: right before MSL finals (2-3), JD beat Flash in WCG Korea and right before that he beat Light (3-2 and 2-1). Yeah, and it should also be said that in his last 20 TvZ's against players beside Flash and Light he is 17-3, with 2 of the losses (and 4 of the wins) coming from at the time #3 TvZ ELO Sea. Come to think of it, if we take out his games vs Flash and Light, his ZvT record overall is at 151-72 (67.71 %), compared with 62.23 %. The massive number of games against those two lately have driven down his ZvT percentage quite a bit.
That's a bit misleading too. It takes out quite a lot of the most meaningful data. At the end of the day, there's no real point looking at how many scrubs JD wipes in Proleague. Besides that, if we're going to look at stats minus S-class rivals, we really ought to do it for everybody (fun fact: Yellow was winning 79% of his ZvT against non-Boxer, non-NaDa for the first 2 years of his career...).
I think my earlier post said it: the most meaningful sign of JD's ZvT ability is his relative ELO (that is, ELO compared to other gamers today). He's almost 100 ELO points over the #2 ZvTer and his vs Terran ELO is #2 of everybody only 20 points behind the vs Terran leader, Flash. ELO can be misleading sometimes, but this is not one of those times. JD is a Terran killer, make no mistake.
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On December 21 2010 08:04 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over. Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
going 12 hatch isn't the problem. He has been trying to be super greedy whenever he plays flash if you have watched it seems he tries to mass expo with a ton of hatcheries then flash just A moves as jaedong has nothing due to using all his money on economy. I feel if Jaedong just did normal zvt rather then try to be greedy against flash he wouldn't lose as much or at least not as bad in any of the games.
Once he gets over his mindset of 8 hatcheries no units build I feel he can take flash in a bo5 but if he doesn't change that style then flash will always beat him in a bo5.
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On December 21 2010 08:10 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 08:04 Lightwip wrote:On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over. Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though. going 12 hatch isn't the problem. He has been trying to be super greedy whenever he plays flash if you have watched it seems he tries to mass expo with a ton of hatcheries then flash just A moves as jaedong has nothing due to using all his money on economy. I feel if Jaedong just did normal zvt rather then try to be greedy against flash he wouldn't lose as much or at least not as bad in any of the games. Once he gets over his mindset of 8 hatcheries no units build I feel he can take flash in a bo5 but if he doesn't change that style then flash will always beat him in a bo5.
That is, in a way, what I meant. While zerg wins in a war of aggression, terran wins in greed because 14CC>12 hatch. And Flash kept punishing JD's attempts to play greedy. Not sure why he never understood how rarely that works.
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On December 21 2010 08:04 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over. Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
Nice trolling. Here's a tip: If you want your anti-fanboyism criticism to be taken seriously, don't be ridiculous.
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On December 21 2010 08:46 Mooncat wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2010 08:04 Lightwip wrote:On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over. Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though. Nice trolling. Here's a tip: If you want your anti-fanboyism criticism to be taken seriously, don't be ridiculous.
There's not much to take seriously there. It's my opinion and it's probably well-known. I was just replying to a post directed at me. I don't really want to discuss whether or not Flash is boring though, it's something no one will ever agree on.
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EPT
