On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
Nice trolling. Here's a tip: If you want your anti-fanboyism criticism to be taken seriously, don't be ridiculous.
There's not much to take seriously there. It's my opinion and it's probably well-known. I was just replying to a post directed at me. I don't really want to discuss whether or not Flash is boring though, it's something no one will ever agree on.
Sharp assessment. Then why bring it up? Flash can play virtually any style he wants to and to top it off, better than any other terran. He has shown that on multiple occasions. The thing is, if you don't like player, everything except seeing him lose is probably boring/uninteresting to you.
That's perfectly fine btw. Believe me when I say there are several players I dislike just as much as you probably dislike Flash, your beloved Bisu for example. However you don't see me posting shit about him every chance I get, just because I subjectively dislike him.
That is pretty awesome. Although there's quite a few SC2 unfeatured streams. Maybe I'll start streaming as soon as I feel like playing some serious starcraft.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
Jaedong is actually relatively bad at adapting for someone as good as him. Flash and Savior were both much, much better at adaptation. Flash in particular has made some absolutely insane reads in games (such as Calm's Lurker all in where Flash put up a Bunker before getting any definitive information at all), and Savior used to also be absolutely unbelievable at this stuff.
Let me make this clear, I'm not saying Jaedong is bad at adapting in absolute terms. All I'm saying is that for a player as great as him, his one tiny weakness is that he hasn't been great at adapting to things within a game. A great example is how Canata took game 1 against him in a split bo5 MSL ro8 match about a year and a half back. Fantasy's first two wins in their OSL final is another one. His first encounter with Flash's Katrina mech also resulted in very questionable decisions, and there are many other examples of this (don't remember which staff writer had a great post about this, but it exists out there somewhere).
Flash on the other hand can be stubborn and greedy to the point of great detriment. His 14cc phase is overblown somewhat since really that passed a long time ago (then again my examples for Jaedong's adaptiveness are also from pretty long ago), but still there are plenty of examples. However, Flash is almost certainly the greatest on the fly defender of all time (see Flash vs. Kal on TvP graveyard Medusa), and a combination of his skill plus the Terran race makes him the best comeback player ever too.
Anyway, I don't know which of the two players I'd prefer, but Jaedong is probably not a better adapter than Flash.
To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
Jaedong is actually relatively bad at adapting for someone as good as him. Flash and Savior were both much, much better at adaptation. Flash in particular has made some absolutely insane reads in games (such as Calm's Lurker all in where Flash put up a Bunker before getting any definitive information at all), and Savior used to also be absolutely unbelievable at this stuff.
Let me make this clear, I'm not saying Jaedong is bad at adapting in absolute terms. All I'm saying is that for a player as great as him, his one tiny weakness is that he hasn't been great at adapting to things within a game. A great example is how Canata took game 1 against him in a split bo5 MSL ro8 match about a year and a half back. Fantasy's first two wins in their OSL final is another one. His first encounter with Flash's Katrina mech also resulted in very questionable decisions, and there are many other examples of this (don't remember which staff writer had a great post about this, but it exists out there somewhere).
Flash on the other hand can be stubborn and greedy to the point of great detriment. His 14cc phase is overblown somewhat since really that passed a long time ago (then again my examples for Jaedong's adaptiveness are also from pretty long ago), but still there are plenty of examples. However, Flash is almost certainly the greatest on the fly defender of all time (see Flash vs. Kal on TvP graveyard Medusa), and a combination of his skill plus the Terran race makes him the best comeback player ever too.
Anyway, I don't know which of the two players I'd prefer, but Jaedong is probably not a better adapter than Flash.
I was referring more to Jaedong's adaptability in a series. Yes he got destroyed the first two games against Fantasy, but he managed to find a weakness and thrice cut Fantasy down to win Batoo. Yes his adaption seems to be lacking against Flash's 14CC. I think it's the same as the bunker rush mentality, only I find it stupid that JD never found merit in 9 pool. Then again, Flash had his own moment of failed adapting against Effort. Flash is a better defender, that much is true. But I'd attribute that in part to the terran race more than his own skill to be honest(not trying to detract from his skill, just terran is good at turtling). But I suppose I see what you mean. Flash may indeed be a better choice.
I actually think both JD and Flash are loosing quite a bit of dominance recently. JD basicaly was very lucky in a number of games (Pure and jangbi for example). Flash droping out of the MSL in maybe the easiest group was a big shocker. If they do not get their game together we might have someone else on top soon. The competition is a lot stiffer than a few month ago where pretty much everyone who could oppose them whent into slumps. Hoping for stork to keep his fire and Fantasy pulling himself together.
On December 21 2010 15:36 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
I honestly don't think you can look at the sheer number of mind boggling comebacks and say that anyone has ever been better than Flash at adapting within a game. Boxer and Nada were definitely the most adaptive to the game as a whole considering how long they remained relevant, but Flash is easily the best player ever at taking an uncomfortable situation and making all the right calls to fix it. It's basically the hallmark of his bonjwa reign to pull off those comebacks.
On December 21 2010 23:50 luckybeni2 wrote: I actually think both JD and Flash are loosing quite a bit of dominance recently. JD basicaly was very lucky in a number of games (Pure and jangbi for example). Flash droping out of the MSL in maybe the easiest group was a big shocker. If they do not get their game together we might have someone else on top soon. The competition is a lot stiffer than a few month ago where pretty much everyone who could oppose them whent into slumps. Hoping for stork to keep his fire and Fantasy pulling himself together.
Our expectations have been raised too such a height, it's been crazy.
Flash had a blip. Top players used to have them all the time. For all the reminiscing about how Savior was dominant, he couldn't get out of the OSL prelims season and season and he never dominated the teamleagues nearly as well as Flash and Jaedong.
Believe or not, dual leagues is not the norm, it's the aberration! It's very hard to stay in both leagues with that kind of workload.
Edit: Someone brought before how Savior went 16-5 in two rounds of proleague once. That's what Jaedong has right now after his loss to Light, and people are talking about how he's fallen off a bit.
Flash and Jaedong do this EVERY season and they do it with a much heavier workload than Savior.
On December 21 2010 23:50 luckybeni2 wrote: I actually think both JD and Flash are loosing quite a bit of dominance recently. JD basicaly was very lucky in a number of games (Pure and jangbi for example). Flash droping out of the MSL in maybe the easiest group was a big shocker. If they do not get their game together we might have someone else on top soon. The competition is a lot stiffer than a few month ago where pretty much everyone who could oppose them whent into slumps. Hoping for stork to keep his fire and Fantasy pulling himself together.
Our expectations have been raised too such a height, it's been crazy.
Flash had a blip. Top players used to have them all the time. For all the reminiscing about how Savior was dominant, he couldn't get out of the OSL prelims season and season and he never dominated the teamleagues nearly as well as Flash and Jaedong.
Believe or not, dual leagues is not the norm, it's the aberration! It's very hard to stay in both leagues with that kind of workload.
Edit: Someone brought before how Savior went 16-5 in two rounds of proleague once. That's what Jaedong has right now after his loss to Light, and people are talking about how he's fallen off a bit.
Flash and Jaedong do this EVERY season and they do it with a much heavier workload than Savior.
Th thing with Flash and his MSL group is that it really was one of the worst groups ever in MSL history. 1 player nobody ever heard of, one mediocre and a guy named Ssak. That is bad even for MST. The thing with JD is that he looks very sloppy. There are so many mistakes and sooner or later people will capitalise. Anyway I just hope we get a more even player field because honestly I think the JD Flash era was at least for the last year pretty boring in terms of single player leagues. Too many good players fell from grace and were replaced by one it wonders.
That's not historically bad. They're new and inexperienced and comparatively weak. They were still A-teamers who fought through Survivor. Just because they're unknown doesn't mean they're terrible players.
Savior was thrown out by the likes of b-teamers in the OSL several seasons in a row.
On December 21 2010 15:36 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
I honestly don't think you can look at the sheer number of mind boggling comebacks and say that anyone has ever been better than Flash at adapting within a game. Boxer and Nada were definitely the most adaptive to the game as a whole considering how long they remained relevant, but Flash is easily the best player ever at taking an uncomfortable situation and making all the right calls to fix it. It's basically the hallmark of his bonjwa reign to pull off those comebacks.
You can't say that comeback=adaptability. In his comebacks Flash relies just as heavily on his superior mechanics as on his adaptability. Besides, it would be unfair because it is more or less impossible for a zerg to do a comeback, atleast in early game. Lose 10 scvs ? No problem just survive and turtle if you are better than your opponent. If you lose 10 drones early in the game it would be impossible even for a top zerg to beat an icup player. Then again, if that is the "hallmark of a bonjwa", it is not that strange that all bonjwas have been terran.
So most of the time when JD doesn't adapt it is, I think, because he would be screwed if he didn't follow through the attack. On the other hand he sometimes looks too stubborn, like in the game vs Sea last season when he refused to build lings. This was not the case with the game against light though.
On December 21 2010 23:50 luckybeni2 wrote: I actually think both JD and Flash are loosing quite a bit of dominance recently. JD basicaly was very lucky in a number of games (Pure and jangbi for example). Flash droping out of the MSL in maybe the easiest group was a big shocker. If they do not get their game together we might have someone else on top soon. The competition is a lot stiffer than a few month ago where pretty much everyone who could oppose them whent into slumps. Hoping for stork to keep his fire and Fantasy pulling himself together.
Umm. can you explain how he was lucky against Pure?
EPT
