BaBy I think BaBy has found at least one of his magic socks. Excluding preliminaries, he is 14-7 since the start of the season, and he's starting to look stronger. Currently on a 4-game win streak topped off with an intense TvT against Light, BaBy looks like he's ready to be an asset, not a detriment, to FOX again. However, being out of both leagues hurts, and BaBy will have to show some serious prowess (like his 9 game win streak in PL last season) to get back on the PR.
Leta Leta's got a record of 15-7 this season, which looks very nice on paper. However, there's a few reasons why he's not on the PR: first and foremost, he's out of OSL. Yeah, I know, power of the afro and whatnot, but still I expected more from Shin Sang Moon. Secondly, if you look at his record, Leta's most impressive wins have come against... TurN and Stats. In other words, Leta has either lost to or not played other notable players, so we can't really see his skill in this case.
Also, my god, every time I see you play I see a girl. What have you done to me?
Modesty Interestingly enough, Modesty is on a 7-game winstreak and has (pretty much) qualified for the OSL Ro8 with his victories over Fantasy and Hydra. Also, after the game against Hydra he should be ELO peaking, but we'll see. He's close, but I don't see Modesty moving too high up the Power Ranking any time soon, since I honestly think this run is kind of a fluke. Honestly, what's with the random streaks this past month?
Neo.G_Soulkey I am kind of disappointed with Neo.G_Bonjwa, since after getting destroyed by HiyA he hasn't been the same. True, one of his next opponents was Jaedong, and another Stork, but losing to Much? I'm kind of miffed on that one. Regardless, Soulkey is still one of the best, if not the best, rookies on the scene, and if it weren't for his failure against HiyA, Soulkey would still be PRing. Instead, he'll have to wait for another month. He's still in the MSL, and even though Stars has slipped a bit in PL, he's still waiting to lead them to victory.
ZerO ZerO was looking very strong at the beginning of the season, especially in his weakest matchup of ZvZ. However, in the past month ZerO's racked up more losses than wins (and along with that, his ZvZ has gone back to being streaky: look at the OSL knockout by HoGiL), and he's shown that he's still not ready to handle Ace matches. The Prince of Queens needs to step up his game, particularly against more notable opponents, if he wants to make it back on the Power Rank.
Looks all right. Fantasy dropping to 5 was definitely a surprise, but justifiable because Shine and Kal (lol Shine[KaL]) have been playing so great this month that any slip-up costs you a lot of ranks.
Good job, I'm very satisfied with this PR. Pretty much all of 3-7 was quite difficult to decide this "month" but you did very well and found good reasoning for every spot imho. Keep up the good work!
You could have mentioned Flash's utter destruction of his TvP Nemesis BeSt though. I mean seriously, he schooled the guy like he did Infernal at the WCG.
Shine on the way to riding a bunch of easy matchups and some really well timed cheeses against better players to a new record. Shame that even if he does he won't be able to get a lasting accomplishment like Gorush did in winning a title.
"anomalytic" should be "anomalous" but otherwise this is a fully agreeable power rank imo. i might not have jumped shine quite so much and i might have organized the 9-10-cbnc-cbnc terrans a little differently, but it's well-written and well-argued. hope this continues
Solid rankings overall, although hydra is just weird to have on there. Calm deserves a little love, imo. He is 8-4 since november, and he looked good, even in his losses against some of the best vZ players in the game. At least a CBNC.
And modesty hasn't qualified yet. If free > fantasy, free > modesty, hydra > fantasy, and modesty losses the tie breaker, then free and hydra advance.
On December 15 2010 23:39 Iplaythings wrote: i liked the huge CBNC better
I feel like Action deserves to be there for a last minute sprint tbh, hes been consistent last few weeks
But otherwise I agree completely, even though I'd put Leta and Baby in light and seas places.
Action has been wildly inconsistent, not to say streaky. By my count he's gone 4L streak, 3W streak since last rank; he's out of the OSL after losing to Mind, he's in the MSL by virtue of a group with BByong and Tyson.
Of course, I don't like Action. But other than the win over Bisu', he's done exactly nothing worthy even of CNBC.
Also fwiw, I don't know what happened to him but Ruby's been way more of a vP player this season, and has been awful against Zerg, so I don't think you can give Hydra that much credit for beating him.
Really really good PR. I would have liked to see Stork and Fantasy higher than Kal and Shine, but I can't really argue for it objectively. Zero, please step it up
Good PR, not exactly what mine would have been but it is very similar and very well reasoned. Bisu and Fantasy's poor performance at the end of this month makes me very sad, but I hope they can step it up.
Also one thing that I noticed that is a typo is that you said Stork has already qualified for the OSL Ro16 when I think you meant Ro8 like you said for Modesty in the CNBC (I'm not entirely sure if this is true because there can be some crazy ties and such in the group stages).
good pr great explanations and a very good brief summary of the present forces that lurk in broodwar today cant even tell if u'r a fan of kal or stork (which is good )
On December 16 2010 01:46 hacklebeast wrote: And modesty hasn't qualified yet. If free > fantasy, free > modesty, hydra > fantasy, and modesty losses the tie breaker, then free and hydra advance.
Indeed. And this is the situation that I am pulling for. Both free and Fantasy cannot make it, so I'd rather have free and Hydra make it then Modesty and anyone.
This PR saddens me. All the players I like suddenly got a string of losses(hopefully not a slump), but Flash is still showing no real signs of weakness. Also, why is KT often mediocre the whole season except against SKT? That really annoys me.
Also, glad to see BaBy returning to last season's form, even if only a little bit. Dude's got serious talent, and I think his dropship play is actually beginning to change the metagame a little bit.
#3 -#6 is very close and after them is a huge gap. Kal is winning a lot just by never making mistakes, he has become the epitome of consistency. And yes, I also hate Shine with a passion and hope he loses everytime, but he has somehow won all those matches and deserves his spot, he is pretty close to #3 atm. Fantasy is genius and madness. What was that academy build vs. Protoss supposed to do? I don't even know. Stork is imo closer to #3 than to #7 but that's fine, #3-#6 are really closxe #7-#10 is absolutely fine.
On December 16 2010 04:48 Lightwip wrote: Also, why is KT often mediocre the whole season except against SKT? That really annoys me.
To give the rest of us a break from the overwhelming SKT fanboyism from time to time. Relax, you still have #1..
..for now
Oh give me a break. You really think that your fans are any better? I despise listening to KT fans talk about how good Flash is as much as anything you may dislike about the SKT fans. It's not about being #1 though, it's more of the head-to-head that I'm really concerned about.
Also, it must be so easy to be a Flash fan, always talking about how your player is the best, while I'm still not sure whether or not my favorites are still even good.
On December 16 2010 09:37 moopie wrote: Yay new PR!! And fuck yeah Kal in 3rd place!
On December 16 2010 04:48 Lightwip wrote: Also, why is KT often mediocre the whole season except against SKT? That really annoys me.
To give the rest of us a break from the overwhelming SKT fanboyism from time to time. Relax, you still have #1..
..for now
Oh give me a break. You really think that your fans are any better? I despise listening to KT fans talk about how good Flash is as much as anything you may dislike about the SKT fans. It's not about being #1 though, it's more of the head-to-head that I'm really concerned about.
Also, it must be so easy to be a Flash fan, always talking about how your player is the best, while I'm still not sure whether or not my favorites are still even good.
You're confusing Flash fans with KT fans. Sure I like Flash and all, but its KT fans that get the brunt of the flaming by SKTers, Flash fans didn't care since he is still winning (most of them abandoned wearing the KT icon after round 1). Flash is good, yes, but I care more about the team doing good as a whole, that includes Stats, Violet, ForGG, Action, HoeJJa (yes, HoeJJa damnit), and of course guest appearances by Reach.
KT is still at 8th, but they're climbing, thats due to team performance, not just KTFlash. And after R1 (which was a flashback to the childlabor terran days), KT fans finally get little victories here and there and they're worth celebrating. SKT crushed everyone in R1, did you turn a blind eye to the LR fanboyism?
Flash fans and KT fans are for the most part synonymous. This isn't the KTF of, like, 2004 with Yellow, Reach, Ra, TheMarine, and Sync that attracted many fans for many different reasons... sure KT is more diverse now than when it was "Flash and who?" but still...
Preety good PR. It was a weird month with Shine wining everything (lol) and Modesty and Hydra performing really great for their standard.
#1 and #2 is not arguable but #3-6 are REALLY close. Stork destroyed everyone he played but he didnt really played against S class players. Kal is just the usual consistent P as always but he is wining against S class players ... well I can say Kal is an S class player now taking that title from Bisu who is doing alright for a mediocre player but terrible for S class like many ppl still consider he is.
Shine just wow ! Dismantling Bisu AGAIN and wining against tvz masters like Sea and Ruby and wining everyone else too. Cheese or not the wins are what counts. Fantasy was doing great untill the Modesty game where he looked honestly like a noob and losing to 2 medocre tosses after that.
Bisu... well my prediction is that he will fall even lower than this. Stork and Kal are the true protoss heroes. Hydra is doing great too but I always considered him as a decent player.
I feel in this osl r16 and msl r32, Flash's situation is not optimistic. But when he get through the groups match, when he get to the elimination matchs, he could be safer.
On December 16 2010 11:51 everstarleague wrote: I feel in this osl r16 and msl r32, Flash's situation is not optimistic. But when he get through the groups match, when he get to the elimination matchs, he could be safer.
Well in the OSL, it's only Hyuk that stands between him and Ro8, and in the MSL he has an insurance group. He pretty much has a straight route to the next set unless something ridiculous happens.
On December 16 2010 09:37 moopie wrote: Yay new PR!! And fuck yeah Kal in 3rd place!
On December 16 2010 04:48 Lightwip wrote: Also, why is KT often mediocre the whole season except against SKT? That really annoys me.
To give the rest of us a break from the overwhelming SKT fanboyism from time to time. Relax, you still have #1..
..for now
Oh give me a break. You really think that your fans are any better? I despise listening to KT fans talk about how good Flash is as much as anything you may dislike about the SKT fans. It's not about being #1 though, it's more of the head-to-head that I'm really concerned about.
Also, it must be so easy to be a Flash fan, always talking about how your player is the best, while I'm still not sure whether or not my favorites are still even good.
Easy to be a Flash fan now, yes. Easy 2 years ago when you knew he was going to be the best ever and then kept dropping out of individuals, not by a long shot. I think Flash has made up for the bad times though.
My one conniption is Shine at 4, and Stork at 6. The reasoning for the Fantasy Shine bit is contestable, but I'll trust you on that, but when you throw the Dinotoss in as a factor I just feel like Stork is such a baller right now....I just want him to win an OSl again...T_T
Nice PR. Don't think many would argue with the positions. However, it would be better if you gave some input on the quality of their games too (as opposed to how the majority of this PR is on statistics). Some personal opinion on how you interpret their play would make it a much better read, and also give it more flavour.
On December 16 2010 09:37 moopie wrote: Yay new PR!! And fuck yeah Kal in 3rd place!
On December 16 2010 04:48 Lightwip wrote: Also, why is KT often mediocre the whole season except against SKT? That really annoys me.
To give the rest of us a break from the overwhelming SKT fanboyism from time to time. Relax, you still have #1..
..for now
Oh give me a break. You really think that your fans are any better? I despise listening to KT fans talk about how good Flash is as much as anything you may dislike about the SKT fans. It's not about being #1 though, it's more of the head-to-head that I'm really concerned about.
Also, it must be so easy to be a Flash fan, always talking about how your player is the best, while I'm still not sure whether or not my favorites are still even good.
I spent 2 years with everyone calling Flash the weakest of Taekbangleessang and how Bisu was god incarnate. You seriously don't know a thing about awful, confrontational, blind and annoying fans if you can't remember the height of Bisu's popularity.
Flash fans aren't particularly great, but dear lord the Bisu fans. Dear. Lord.
Everyone's fans should learn from Stork's fans. They're the nicest damn people on TL and I always feel like a jerk after seeing Stork lose because his fans are so nice and understanding. =(
On December 16 2010 14:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:You seriously don't know a thing about awful, confrontational, blind and annoying fans if you can't remember the height of Bisu's popularity.
You're right, I don't. I've honestly not been around so long, and I pretty much joined early 2010, so I don't know nearly as much as you do about 2 years ago. I read old LR threads and such to try to, but I really don't. To me, as someone who didn't experience that, I always thought of Stork as the weakest TBLS, and the rise of another terran to be unappealing, because after Nada, Boxer, and Oov, it really seems like it's too easy for terran to reach such a peak. The main reason I like Bisu is because he's the one protoss who has ever shown that protoss can be on par with the other races(I love Stork too, but he just can't win when it really matters), and seeing him get crushed season after season is probably no better than seeing Flash lose that much for Flash fans. And to be honest, no matter how much I've tried, I just can't like Flash. I like Jaedong, Stork, and Savior(I used to like Boxer/Nada a lot but my respect for them kinda waned after they just abandoned everything they created for a chance at some money), but Flash just is too hard to like. But here's what I really want to say: Perhaps Bisu fans were worse then, I can't really know. But right now they're not worse than Flash fans and I'd rather you not pretend they are and talk about how Bisu being so mediocre in comparison is some sort of justice for the fanboyism of 2 years ago. Frankly, doing that now is just spitting on the idea that protoss can be anything but 'pretty good' players that can rake up a decent winrate but just be stomped by the best players(basically, like free or Kal), because Bisu is the only one that ever really managed to be able to win against the best(Stork, again, can't win SLs against other TBLS). Imagine if all the bonjwas were protoss and Flash was the one terran to do anything, and after he declined everyone talked about it as if it was revenge for all his fans. That's basically what being a Bisu fan now is like, because I doubt he'll return to being #1 for a while, if ever. God, writing this made me kinda sad.
On December 15 2010 23:39 Iplaythings wrote: i liked the huge CBNC better
I feel like Action deserves to be there for a last minute sprint tbh, hes been consistent last few weeks
But otherwise I agree completely, even though I'd put Leta and Baby in light and seas places.
Well, honestly last time's CBNC was more of a shoutout list. It's something I like doing as well, but honestly most players on there weren't really "close" to being on the Power Rank. Perhaps I'll just have a separate list for the future.
On December 16 2010 01:46 hacklebeast wrote: Solid rankings overall, although hydra is just weird to have on there. Calm deserves a little love, imo. He is 8-4 since november, and he looked good, even in his losses against some of the best vZ players in the game. At least a CBNC.
And modesty hasn't qualified yet. If free > fantasy, free > modesty, hydra > fantasy, and modesty losses the tie breaker, then free and hydra advance.
Ah yes, I actually did forget all about Calm. I'll give him a bit of leeway for next time, I guess.
And you're right about the qualifications (for Stork as well, it's the same case). I just found it very implausible for all that to happen, but I'll change it to make it correct. Thank you!
On December 16 2010 02:23 CuteSmallHydra wrote: What do you mean by January trolling? Has she done something lately that negatively impacted Stork's performance?
What I meant was January should send Stork for Ace matches instead of sending great or TurN or the likes.
On December 16 2010 13:55 SectorX wrote: Nice PR. Don't think many would argue with the positions. However, it would be better if you gave some input on the quality of their games too (as opposed to how the majority of this PR is on statistics). Some personal opinion on how you interpret their play would make it a much better read, and also give it more flavour.
This is actually something I tried to do last time, though this time around I was pretty short of time. I'll make an effort to take a more qualitative approach alongside the statistics for next time.
On December 16 2010 14:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:You seriously don't know a thing about awful, confrontational, blind and annoying fans if you can't remember the height of Bisu's popularity.
You're right, I don't. I've honestly not been around so long, and I pretty much joined early 2010, so I don't know nearly as much as you do about 2 years ago. I read old LR threads and such to try to, but I really don't. To me, as someone who didn't experience that, I always thought of Stork as the weakest TBLS, and the rise of another terran to be unappealing, because after Nada, Boxer, and Oov, it really seems like it's too easy for terran to reach such a peak. The main reason I like Bisu is because he's the one protoss who has ever shown that protoss can be on par with the other races(I love Stork too, but he just can't win when it really matters), and seeing him get crushed season after season is probably no better than seeing Flash lose that much for Flash fans. And to be honest, no matter how much I've tried, I just can't like Flash. I like Jaedong, Stork, and Savior(I used to like Boxer/Nada a lot but my respect for them kinda waned after they just abandoned everything they created for a chance at some money), but Flash just is too hard to like. But here's what I really want to say: Perhaps Bisu fans were worse then, I can't really know. But right now they're not worse than Flash fans and I'd rather you not pretend they are and talk about how Bisu being so mediocre in comparison is some sort of justice for the fanboyism of 2 years ago. Frankly, doing that now is just spitting on the idea that protoss can be anything but 'pretty good' players that can rake up a decent winrate but just be stomped by the best players(basically, like free or Kal), because Bisu is the only one that ever really managed to be able to win against the best(Stork, again, can't win SLs against other TBLS). Imagine if all the bonjwas were protoss and Flash was the one terran to do anything, and after he declined everyone talked about it as if it was revenge for all his fans. That's basically what being a Bisu fan now is like, because I doubt he'll return to being #1 for a while, if ever. God, writing this made me kinda sad.
I seriously give no shits about why you like Bisu, my point is you are trying to compare fans of different players despite only being around when Flash is at his greatest. Flash was the most disheartening player to cheer for because he wasn't doing well for about a year and a half. Bisu was still a favorite over Flash this time last year and you're fucking complaining about his slump, when he's obviously recovering already?
I know exactly how you feel about Bisu, only worse because Bisu fans back in the day were even more obnoxious, partly because TL got a major popularity hike around the time of the broodwar GSLs, where Bisu won the second one and an MSL around the same time. You know what Flash gets whenever he becomes bonjwa? SC2 being out and every screwloose, annoying, belligerent tagalong fan going to the new game instead of Flash. If you honestly think Flash fans are bad right now then you have no earthly clue what obnoxious fans are.
The races don't matter here, we were talking about their fans, and I sure as hell don't want to hear it from a damn Bisu fan that Flash fans have been obnoxious. Or for that matter an SKT fan doing the same to KT fans. You have no idea.
On December 16 2010 09:37 moopie wrote: Yay new PR!! And fuck yeah Kal in 3rd place!
On December 16 2010 04:48 Lightwip wrote: Also, why is KT often mediocre the whole season except against SKT? That really annoys me.
To give the rest of us a break from the overwhelming SKT fanboyism from time to time. Relax, you still have #1..
..for now
Oh give me a break. You really think that your fans are any better? I despise listening to KT fans talk about how good Flash is as much as anything you may dislike about the SKT fans. It's not about being #1 though, it's more of the head-to-head that I'm really concerned about.
Also, it must be so easy to be a Flash fan, always talking about how your player is the best, while I'm still not sure whether or not my favorites are still even good.
I spent 2 years with everyone calling Flash the weakest of Taekbangleessang and how Bisu was god incarnate. You seriously don't know a thing about awful, confrontational, blind and annoying fans if you can't remember the height of Bisu's popularity.
Flash fans aren't particularly great, but dear lord the Bisu fans. Dear. Lord.
Everyone's fans should learn from Stork's fans. They're the nicest damn people on TL and I always feel like a jerk after seeing Stork lose because his fans are so nice and understanding. =(
Bisu was the first Protoss in a long, long time to actually hold the #1 spot. Not only that, but he ended Savior's total oppression of Protoss. It was natural that fans would go apeshit. Annoying? Sure. But you kind of had to expect it.
Stork's fans aren't nearly as bad as Bisu's, Flash's or JD's, but they can be a little annoying as well. Stork tends to get hyped a lot even when he's not really doing anything special. I can't remember the last time I saw a PR without at least one comment of "Where's Stork" or "Stork should be higher." Stork's an awesome player (the only modern superstar to come from a previous era -- I keep saying it, surviving the generational gap is absurdly hard and takes unbelievable talent), but he often gets acknowledged over other players who are every bit as deserving.on a month-to-month basis. Stork is the kind of player who can suddenly bust out with a bonjwa-breaking performance at any time but the rest of his games that month may be average, but it will always be enough to give him the nod over a player with a more solid overall performance.
This month, of course, Stork is looking solid, but in general he's a little less consistent, and his record over the past 2 years more modest.
On December 16 2010 01:46 hacklebeast wrote: And modesty hasn't qualified yet. If free > fantasy, free > modesty, hydra > fantasy, and modesty losses the tie breaker, then free and hydra advance.
On December 16 2010 16:08 TwoToneTerran wrote:I sure as hell don't want to hear it from a damn Bisu fan that Flash fans have been obnoxious. Or for that matter an SKT fan doing the same to KT fans. You have no idea.
Keep in mind you're the one that brought up fanboys first. It's hardly relevant to talk about how obnoxious Bisu fans are when KT fans are pretty obnoxious too. More obnoxious? Doubt it, but that's probably because there's less of them. I think of Flash as a less exciting player than Bisu, probably others too, and as you mentioned, SC2 probably takes away a fair number of fans he would have, hence less people to fanboy for him. But my point is mentioning the fanboys of before now as if Bisu/SKT doing mediocre is some sort of justice is unfair, because I think of your fans as annoying too, and right now I'd say they're about equal in how annoying they are. I used to be a pretty annoying fanboy a few months ago(I probably still am to a lot of people, I think I was worse before though), but eventually I realized how little it accomplishes when you get others to hate you. Main point is, you talk about how the failure of SKT/Bisu is karma for fanboyism yet don't really realize that all opposing fanboys are annoying as hell.
Um, I didn't bring it up. I responded to you after you responded to moopie. But thanks for playing the "You started it!" maneuver, lol.
And it's I didn't say shit about karma, I just don't want to hear it. It's such a horrid hypocrisy. SKT fans and Bisu fans have been worse, there's seriously no question about it. People get banned with frequency whenever a zerg beats bisu out of a tournament, but no one got banned when flash got 2 hatch muta'd or kwanroll'd out of both tournaments. When Bisu is doing well, his fans are more caustic than any other.
PS: Bisu and SKT aren't doing mediocre. SKT has never been mediocre and Bisu has a fantastic record this season. I seriously don't know what the hell you're talking about, your team was UNDEFEATED last round. Bisu was undefeated last round. He suffers a couple setbacks and all of the sudden he's mediocre? Lollin'.
On December 16 2010 16:36 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, I didn't bring it up. I responded to you after you responded to moopie. But thanks for playing the "You started it!" maneuver, lol.
God damn it, I always mix you two up, what with the guardian+KT icons. Mediocre for half a round is what I meant. What I was trying to say is, the instant someone plays mediocre is the instant they get people to jump on them. I don't deny that Bisu fans are annoying though. I just think that any player with skill will have a slew of fans that will get on the nerves of antifans. In any case, I don't see this going anywhere, as there's no measure of annoyingness of fans, so I'd be content to just drop it.
On a completely unrelated note, this month seems to be the rise of players that no one thought of as good.
On December 16 2010 16:36 TwoToneTerran wrote: Um, I didn't bring it up. I responded to you after you responded to moopie. But thanks for playing the "You started it!" maneuver, lol.
God damn it, I always mix you two up, what with the guardian+KT icons. Mediocre for half a round is what I meant. What I was trying to say is, the instant someone plays mediocre is the instant they get people to jump on them. I don't deny that Bisu fans are annoying though. I just think that any player with skill will have a slew of fans that will get on the nerves of antifans. In any case, I don't see this going anywhere, as there's no measure of annoyingness of fans, so I'd be content to just drop it.
On a completely unrelated note, this month seems to be the rise of players that no one thought of as good.
I commend you on your last comment. Debates and arguments between two bias opinion will go no where. The only winners in these type of debate are those would never got involved.
On December 16 2010 09:37 moopie wrote: Yay new PR!! And fuck yeah Kal in 3rd place!
On December 16 2010 04:48 Lightwip wrote: Also, why is KT often mediocre the whole season except against SKT? That really annoys me.
To give the rest of us a break from the overwhelming SKT fanboyism from time to time. Relax, you still have #1..
..for now
Oh give me a break. You really think that your fans are any better? I despise listening to KT fans talk about how good Flash is as much as anything you may dislike about the SKT fans. It's not about being #1 though, it's more of the head-to-head that I'm really concerned about.
Also, it must be so easy to be a Flash fan, always talking about how your player is the best, while I'm still not sure whether or not my favorites are still even good.
I spent 2 years with everyone calling Flash the weakest of Taekbangleessang and how Bisu was god incarnate. You seriously don't know a thing about awful, confrontational, blind and annoying fans if you can't remember the height of Bisu's popularity.
Flash fans aren't particularly great, but dear lord the Bisu fans. Dear. Lord.
Everyone's fans should learn from Stork's fans. They're the nicest damn people on TL and I always feel like a jerk after seeing Stork lose because his fans are so nice and understanding. =(
Bisu was the first Protoss in a long, long time to actually hold the #1 spot. Not only that, but he ended Savior's total oppression of Protoss. It was natural that fans would go apeshit. Annoying? Sure. But you kind of had to expect it.
Stork's fans aren't nearly as bad as Bisu's, Flash's or JD's, but they can be a little annoying as well. Stork tends to get hyped a lot even when he's not really doing anything special. I can't remember the last time I saw a PR without at least one comment of "Where's Stork" or "Stork should be higher." Stork's an awesome player (the only modern superstar to come from a previous era -- I keep saying it, surviving the generational gap is absurdly hard and takes unbelievable talent), but he often gets acknowledged over other players who are every bit as deserving.on a month-to-month basis. Stork is the kind of player who can suddenly bust out with a bonjwa-breaking performance at any time but the rest of his games that month may be average, but it will always be enough to give him the nod over a player with a more solid overall performance.
This month, of course, Stork is looking solid, but in general he's a little less consistent, and his record over the past 2 years more modest.
i think it has more to do with the fact that stork is a player that is mostly loved in tl, what i mean by that is when there is a rivalry between 2 players the fans of the 2 opposing sided will take the hate and love into extreme levels but in teh case of stork i'm not even sad when he wins vs jaedong i dont know why but bisu fans love him , flash fans respect him (talking from what i've seen in the forums and my opinion on the matter ).
Flash lost 53 points of ELO, and 66 points of vT ELO. That... doesn't even make sense.
I'm pretty sure that earlier TL have used a K value of 20, which means no matter how low your opponents ELO is you can never lose more than 20 points per game. I guess they must have a higher K value for when someone is so and so many points ahead of his competitor.
Anyway I find it amusing that less than a day after he reclaimed the #1 spot in every ELO category, he lost it in 2.
There needs to be some sort of consistency in how you determine a month now. These monthly power rankings aren't even turning into monthly power rankings anymore: you're taking into consideration a lot more than the last month if you're saying that Flash went 15-2 and Jaedong went 15-5, and etc. I don't see the point in doing this since we have enough games for the past month anyways. In a way, you're artificially inflating/deflating results that aren't even for the last month since the Power Rank.
I mean, if you look at Kal's games for the past month since the last power ranking, you would see that he only went a modest 5-3, with losses to Bisu, Brave (?!) and Sea.
Doesn't make much sense to me, but whatever I guess.
EDIT: And I disagree with TwoToneTerran. Since I've been here, I've found that PR writers tend to have an emphasis on the fact that it's the MONTHLY power rankings and not the start of the season's power rankings. There's no point in having a season's power ranking because it tends to be a lot more stagnant and unrepresentative of the SCBW scene at that moment in time. It doesn't take into consideration hot streaks and cold slumps that happen so often and quickly. The only times I've seen PR writers have an emphasis on past results are when it's a significant past result (like winning the OSL/MSL) or when there aren't enough games played.
This PR is terrible. This is not a monthly power ranking, this is a fanboy fueled overall ranking where past achievements overwhelm current level of play.
I think Plexa put it well, it's a measure of how good a player is at any given month. Current results count the most, but backtracking a bit is good too just because there may be something relevant(like Flash 3-0 JD).
I guess I can't really argue with the results for this PR, since they kinda reflect the performances of the players. I just hope that Bisu and Stork start performing better, so that they can get higher spots in the PR (and Stork can finally get #1 spot again).
Though I have to admit I love the reference to Shine's bathroom "problem" and the shoutout to Daniel. =)
On December 17 2010 08:02 swanized wrote: Ah after a whole year the gods answered my prayers
no Flash in MSL
This is good news, but unless he goes into a slump it won't mean all that much.
On December 17 2010 07:21 DracoVolantus wrote: Every fight between players in mindgames should be Bo21, or at least Bo7, sc2 GSL2 final proves it.
It isn't supposed to be mindgames, it's supposed to be straight up game although once in a while someone will deprive us of that. And while I'd like Bo7 as much as anyone, there are practical concerns that make Bo7 kinda hard. Mostly that playing 5-7 games tends to take its toll on the players and the need of the timeslots for other things.
Man, Flash is lucky the powerrank came out when it did. No way he would have kept #1 if the rank was released today. Fortunately, he has a month to make us forget this problem.
On December 17 2010 07:21 DracoVolantus wrote: Every fight between players in mindgames should be Bo21, or at least Bo7, sc2 GSL2 final proves it.
It isn't supposed to be mindgames, it's supposed to be straight up game although once in a while someone will deprive us of that. And while I'd like Bo7 as much as anyone, there are practical concerns that make Bo7 kinda hard. Mostly that playing 5-7 games tends to take its toll on the players and the need of the timeslots for other things.
It will matter for the MSL though lol how can you say it won't? Its either going to be Jaedong, or a completely new winner (and a higher chance of a new winner sense one of the 2 are out). This may be one of the only chances in awhile a new player can win but I'm hoping Jaedong does :D
On December 18 2010 02:40 Mortality wrote: Flash will likely drop next month unless all the other contenders for #1 slip as well. And Free out of both leagues...
Flash is 19 points from losing #1 ELO... losing to rookies really hurts.
On December 18 2010 02:40 Mortality wrote: Flash will likely drop next month unless all the other contenders for #1 slip as well. And Free out of both leagues...
Flash is 19 points from losing #1 ELO... losing to rookies really hurts.
JD also gained about 20 ELO points since the ranking was put up. He's been steady in the low 2300's for a while now.
These days it's really easy (for top players...) to put on points up to about 2250. After that it losses start to hurt a lot more.
Second best player is Nakamura (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZo8O-p9qy4)
And third is Godterran, Flash.
Every fight between players in mindgames should be Bo21, or at least Bo7, sc2 GSL2 final proves it.
We should watch only best of best games from them, or all if have spare time.
I know KesPa won't read what i wrote in some stupid TL topic.
But I think it is salvation for SC:BW if things continue with mass switching to sc2, and appearing of sc2 in this regard could be a healthy thing.
Ok, I am sooooo drunk xD but IT IS what i think I just think it won't change anything if i wrote this
SC2 is a much faster game than SC1. Watching a BO7 of BW will be long and tiring and not enjoyable. BO5 is fine.
Indeed, I remember an occasion where a Bo5 (might've been a Bo7 even) in GSL (can't remember which one) was as long as ONE TvT game in BW that was going on at the same time.
Wow, Hydra>Kal in ace, destroys classic in game 3. What's with CJ (well, hite now) Entus and wtfpwnage zergs? After MaJaeYoon went and...yea, Effort comes out and rapes ppl. Effort retires, no problem, Hydra suddenly pops up. I'm impressed :D
On December 17 2010 04:47 Lightwip wrote: I think Plexa put it well, it's a measure of how good a player is at any given month. Current results count the most, but backtracking a bit is good too just because there may be something relevant(like Flash 3-0 JD).
PR should be the top 10 best players not the top 10 best records. Those are two very different things. Anyone can write the latter and only somebody who watches and understands every game can write the former.
Sometimes the best player doesn't win and the PR has to account for that.
On December 18 2010 18:53 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I remember back in the day when you only had to win ONE gold medal each season to be bonjwa.
Expectations for Flash are too high imo but I guess he set the bar.
That's what I was thinking. Before Flash's reign of terror started it was quite common even for the best of the best to drop out of one league in exactly the same fashion that Flash did recently. Especially when they had a tough schedule.
Imho, Flash is still the undisputed No.1 until someone beats him in a Bo5. One thing that's funny about Flash is that even though his TvT is statistically still his strongest matchup(although by a small margin) IF he loses to an inferior player, it's usually in a TvT.
Anyways, go grab that 4th OSL kid. Who needs that golden badge anyways...
Flash has been on the greatest run ever. Second greatest run isn't even CLOSE. (No, Savior fans, whatever vestigial contingent of you still exists. Savior is barely in the same picture.)
Of course you want the streak of starleague finals to go on, but it has to end some time. It's completely unprecedented what Flash did, and he reached an apex with the double win last season. The chances of getting through that many rounds that many times is infinitesimal, but Flash did it.
So, the streak ends, and Flash gets a little less work to do this season.
And Savior won 80% (16-4) of his Proleague games in the 2006 season. CJ simply could not give Savior the support he needed. No team has ever made it to the top of Proleague on the back of just one player. Even Flash and JD, you'll notice that when KT and OZ failed to make it corresponds to when they don't have support. That particular criticism is not fair at all. Proleague is a team effort.
On December 19 2010 02:40 Lightwip wrote: Wow, what happened to Hydra? He just decided to go all godmode on us.
It seems like he was actually good and nobody realized it. His only match-up under 50% is ZvZ. His ZvP lifetime history isn't too great, but he debuted back when PvZ was strong. In 2010 he's 13-6 (68%) in ZvP. And he's 11-5 (69%) lifetime vs Terran with about half those games against strong opponents...
Now that he himself cannot play anymore, the Dark Prince, lurking in the shadows, cleverly devised a plan to control Hydra's mind. He will use his body to take revenge on all those who have wronged him in the past. Or maybe just on everyone, just to satisfy the hunger in his evil soul.
Great post, thanks for the mid month update. Comments; i'm a little surprised by your use of the word bownja in flash's description, but i won't protest.
I also share your fear for JD loosing his spot.
After shine's been doing so well, i'm still surprsied to see him so high up lol, didn't expect fantasy to drop that low either. Glad to see Kal being up there, he is doing pretty S-Class lately after all.
aaand, HYDRA FIGHTING. No big complaints, great post. thanks.
Lol and half of these posts really are about flash being bownja huh, hahahah.
On December 19 2010 12:20 Womwomwom wrote: Hydra was always pretty decent to good just that he's so...uninteresting that no one thought much of him, kind of like Light in a way.
Seriously, if you told me to recall games played by Hydra, I wouldn't be able to.
This actually makes a lot of sense o.0 ...I can't think of any either.
Wait he did 2-0 like BeSt and Stork or two Dragons last last MSL or something I can't remember? Whoa I was totally correct Hana Daetoo Ro32 Hydra > Stork and Hydra > BeSt.
You know, JD and Fantasy failings are reminiscent of the KT and STX failings at the end of last season: JD is doing quite a bit worse than usual(actually I think he's getting better), but Fantasy drops the ball completely.
On December 18 2010 14:42 MuffinDude wrote: SC2 is a much faster game than SC1. Watching a BO7 of BW will be long and tiring and not enjoyable. BO5 is fine.
I also think that part of the issue here is that sc2 players doesn't know the game as well as bw-players yet (ofcourse) so they really don't know how to handle the different aggressive openings yet. Most games are so short nowadays but I'm guessing they'll get longer and longer as the strategies develops.
Bo5 is best for BW imo. Makes every game enough important to win while it still is enough games to get in mind games and usually to determine the better player.
I actually agree with this entire PR. Good call on Bisu even though I have a man-crush on him, he is playing very well but not well enough to be at the top of PR given his lack of individual league wins. As to Flash, his TvT is not as incomprehensibly powerful as i'm used to. Losing to ssak? Really? That being said, he did cut Paralyze despite having the inferior hair-style so he's still #1 by a lot :3
On December 18 2010 14:42 MuffinDude wrote: SC2 is a much faster game than SC1. Watching a BO7 of BW will be long and tiring and not enjoyable. BO5 is fine.
I also think that part of the issue here is that sc2 players doesn't know the game as well as bw-players yet (ofcourse) so they really don't know how to handle the different aggressive openings yet. Most games are so short nowadays but I'm guessing they'll get longer and longer as the strategies develops.
Bo5 is best for BW imo. Makes every game enough important to win while it still is enough games to get in mind games and usually to determine the better player.
You have no idea how it more than Bo5 would affect ego, You can't say someone was broken by all-in in fifth game in first 3 minutes.
I'm talking You have no idea, how playing Bo5 4 days stright would improve the quality of games. Most people would enjoy it less but it's not the point, are money from people watching games live, and they don't have enough spirit to watch it, do they?
On December 18 2010 14:42 MuffinDude wrote: SC2 is a much faster game than SC1. Watching a BO7 of BW will be long and tiring and not enjoyable. BO5 is fine.
I also think that part of the issue here is that sc2 players doesn't know the game as well as bw-players yet (ofcourse) so they really don't know how to handle the different aggressive openings yet. Most games are so short nowadays but I'm guessing they'll get longer and longer as the strategies develops.
Bo5 is best for BW imo. Makes every game enough important to win while it still is enough games to get in mind games and usually to determine the better player.
You have no idea how it more than Bo5 would affect ego, You can't say someone was broken by all-in in fifth game in first 3 minutes.
I'm talking You have no idea, how playing Bo5 4 days stright would improve the quality of games. Most people would enjoy it less but it's not the point, are money from people watching games live, and they don't have enough spirit to watch it, do they?
Please, you have to fix your english, your posts are mostly unreadable. You cannot argue with someone you don't even understand.
On December 20 2010 07:42 VictorJones wrote: As to Flash, his TvT is not as incomprehensibly powerful as i'm used to. Losing to ssak? Really?
I haven't watched those games from MSL, but it should be said that every now and again people start figuring out Flash's current style, so then he makes a few minor modifications and he's good to go again. This isn't as much of a mark against his TvT as people would like to think...
You have to take results in context. The same goes with SC2. People complain about "worse" players winning because they figure out a "broken" strategy. Well... what do you expect? SC2 is still pretty early on in terms of pioneering. It's getting pioneered faster than SCBW did, but then that's also to be expected given replays and given knowledge carried over. Consequently, the pro scene there is very unstable.
On December 20 2010 09:29 Holgerius wrote: I generally have no idea what he's trying to say in his posts. It's like he's been using Google translate or something.
I have to agree... The only thing I've been able to figure out up to now is that he's apparently a Flash fan, which is good. He seems to be an even bigger Kal fan though, which is not good. Everything else is a complete mystery to me...
On December 20 2010 07:42 VictorJones wrote: As to Flash, his TvT is not as incomprehensibly powerful as i'm used to. Losing to ssak? Really?
I haven't watched those games from MSL, but it should be said that every now and again people start figuring out Flash's current style, so then he makes a few minor modifications and he's good to go again. This isn't as much of a mark against his TvT as people would like to think...
Well, remember that this PR was written a day before the MSL games...
On December 20 2010 07:42 VictorJones wrote: As to Flash, his TvT is not as incomprehensibly powerful as i'm used to. Losing to ssak? Really?
I haven't watched those games from MSL, but it should be said that every now and again people start figuring out Flash's current style, so then he makes a few minor modifications and he's good to go again. This isn't as much of a mark against his TvT as people would like to think...
Well, remember that this PR was written a day before the MSL games...
I'm well aware. But even if it weren't, I'd probably have kept Flash as #1, given that there was some risk of JD dropping until Fantasy started slumping. It's just that the gap between #1 and #6 would have been less on paper.
My view on where a player falls on the skill spectrum is much less reactionary than most peoples...
On December 20 2010 07:42 VictorJones wrote: As to Flash, his TvT is not as incomprehensibly powerful as i'm used to. Losing to ssak? Really?
I haven't watched those games from MSL, but it should be said that every now and again people start figuring out Flash's current style, so then he makes a few minor modifications and he's good to go again. This isn't as much of a mark against his TvT as people would like to think...
Well, remember that this PR was written a day before the MSL games...
I'm well aware. But even if it weren't, I'd probably have kept Flash as #1, given that there was some risk of JD dropping until Fantasy started slumping. It's just that the gap between #1 and #6 would have been less on paper.
My view on where a player falls on the skill spectrum is much less reactionary than most peoples...
Oh oh I was talking to the guy that you quoted haha.
Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it...
On December 20 2010 20:41 StylishVODs wrote: Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it...
He lost to two no names in straight up games. It is not the end of the world but of course it should count on the power rank ffs! I think PR becomes more and more conservative for every month - when I first came to TL, PR was alot more about the month at hand.
I personally would've kept Flash at #1 even if I had made the PR after him getting knocked out. Sure, I'm a hardcore Flash fanboy, but I would've done the same thing for JD if he had done what Flash has.
If Flash gets knocked out in OSL I think he deserves to be bumped a few spots. But getting knocked out in the Ro32 is kinda significant. A #1 shouldn't be knocked out that early. Jaedong has a good enough record this season, but he lost to the likes of Hydra, along with losses against Zero, Stork and Light(aka the 3 best opponents he played)... that would've been reason to bump him off #2 if not for Fanta fail. If JD keeps a good record this month then maybe he should get #1. The fact is, if Jaedong can show that he's not shaky in any MUs while Flash is beatable in 1, then who's more deserving of being called #1?
You know what, forget what I said before. If Jaedong is playing like an '09 Flash he doesn't deserve #1. Although if he wasn't, I'd say he should be considered over Flash. His TvT has looked beatable for a while honestly, just his opponents love choking.
On December 20 2010 21:39 Lightwip wrote: If Flash gets knocked out in OSL I think he deserves to be bumped a few spots. But getting knocked out in the Ro32 is kinda significant. A #1 shouldn't be knocked out that early. Jaedong has a good enough record this season, but he lost to the likes of Hydra, along with losses against Zero, Stork and Light(aka the 3 best opponents he played)... that would've been reason to bump him off #2 if not for Fanta fail. If JD keeps a good record this month then maybe he should get #1. The fact is, if Jaedong can show that he's not shaky in any MUs while Flash is beatable in 1, then who's more deserving of being called #1?
Did you see the hydra game? I don't know why every one is talking about that game it was a 9-pool all-in against good defense, not much to talk about. Jaedong has to show that he can play well vs T though.
On December 20 2010 20:41 StylishVODs wrote: Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it...
He lost to two no names in straight up games. It is not the end of the world but of course it should count on the power rank ffs! I think PR becomes more and more conservative for every month - when I first came to TL, PR was alot more about the month at hand.
You joined during JWD's power ranks. He was much more this-month's-results oriented than is normal for the Power Rank.
PR is generally supposed to be a judgment of which players are currently the strongest.
That said, getting chased out of the MSL by Ssak and Classic is pretty awful, and Flash has generally had a patchy December. Of course, he also lost only one game in October-November, and won double gold medals in August-September, and was dominating hard for many months before that. He's earned some benefit of the doubt. (Although I'd JD #1 over Flash if JD weren't also facing bumps lately, since JD was almost as strong as Flash for Flash's entire dominant run.)
When I compare Jaedong and Flash, the way I see it is that one of them has 2/3 goodlike matchups and the other one has 3/3. In my subjective view, Jaedongs vT has been getting worse since quite some time now (probably since he beat Flash in PowerOutage MSL). His good zvt's are still a piece of art that no zerg even comes close to, but damn he is doing so much weird shit. One 4pool is enough for one Bo5, sometimes you need a fighting unit before your 8th hatch is coming up, building expansions towards the terrans attack-path is bad... and if you wanna all-in, maybe don't get it scoutet by an SCV. There is always a very thin line between greedyness and brilliance in Jaedongs games and walking that line succesfully is one of the things that make him so great, but since quite some time his game-sense is often a bit off in zvt. It is especially astonishing since he plays very well from behind (i.e. the game against Flash on Fighting Spirit in the last MSL finals) and he wouldn't need to be so super greedy or hoping for two consecutive 4 pools to work out. Maybe zvt is the hardest match-up in the game (protoss probably won't agree) but the way he loses, you cannot blame it on imbalance (at least if it's not vs mech on Polaris Rhapsody^^).
Ok, that was just a little rant... regarding the PR, unless Jaedongs next few weeks are flawless and Flash drops out of OSL, Flash should not lose #1. We had this discussion a couple of months ago. Back then I felt Flash got too much leeway for his 7-8 month (or whatever it was), but tearing up SPL + OSL plus the background of holding all possible titles there are right now, he should get away with dropping out of one league for once. It's not like he is slumping in any way, he just had a bad day and this time someone was able to take advantage of it. Of course, if he gets hyuked out of the OSL, then it is a completely different story.
flash won osl/ msl/wcg/pl all in 1 season, seriously dropping out of the msl in that fasion is prety bad indeed but untill jeadong doesnt look like a worthy contender to win both leauges and get some stuff done in proleauge (i know hard with such a team) I see no reason to remove flash from his top slot.
On December 20 2010 20:41 StylishVODs wrote: Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it...
He lost to two no names in straight up games. It is not the end of the world but of course it should count on the power rank ffs! I think PR becomes more and more conservative for every month - when I first came to TL, PR was alot more about the month at hand.
Yeah it should count. How much though... with the background flash has atm, being bonjwa and all, should one missed dual final appearence be enough to say that someone else is better than him at bw right now?
On December 20 2010 20:41 StylishVODs wrote: Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it...
He lost to two no names in straight up games. It is not the end of the world but of course it should count on the power rank ffs! I think PR becomes more and more conservative for every month - when I first came to TL, PR was alot more about the month at hand.
The very first PR was every bit as conservative as this. Bisu didn't surpass Savior in PR until after Savior had not only lost MSL, but lost OGN All Star against NaDa, and NaDa didn't surpass Savior until the next month when Savior lost the only two games he played, but was still ranked #3.
Granted, back then far fewer games were played by month, so making the ranking based on monthly accomplishments alone made even less sense back then than it does today.
On December 20 2010 22:00 Holgerius wrote: Fact; JD has 3 wins in his last 10 ZvTs. Tough opponents, sure, but he is not looking unbeatable by any means.
Flash still deserves a fuckton of benefit of doubt.
Stats always need to be taken in context. Despite his "horrible" record in ZvT, JD is ranked #2 in vs Terran ELO (#1 ZvT). It just so happens that almost all his games recently have been against the #1 and #2 TvZ players in the world, and yes he lost his more recent games against them, but he's also beaten them during the same time period: right before MSL finals (2-3), JD beat Flash in WCG Korea and right before that he beat Light (3-2 and 2-1).
1 page of comments ago I said there's no reason to doubt Flash yet. Bear in mind that I said that even including the MSL games, I think Flash deserved the #1 on this particular PR. But there's also no reason to doubt JD. If JD does mop up in both individual leagues and proleague, it really would not be unreasonable to give him #1 on PR.
On December 18 2010 14:42 MuffinDude wrote: SC2 is a much faster game than SC1. Watching a BO7 of BW will be long and tiring and not enjoyable. BO5 is fine.
I also think that part of the issue here is that sc2 players doesn't know the game as well as bw-players yet (ofcourse) so they really don't know how to handle the different aggressive openings yet. Most games are so short nowadays but I'm guessing they'll get longer and longer as the strategies develops.
Bo5 is best for BW imo. Makes every game enough important to win while it still is enough games to get in mind games and usually to determine the better player.
You have no idea how it more than Bo5 would affect ego, You can't say someone was broken by all-in in fifth game in first 3 minutes.
I'm talking You have no idea, how playing Bo5 4 days stright would improve the quality of games. Most people would enjoy it less but it's not the point, are money from people watching games live, and they don't have enough spirit to watch it, do they?
Please, you have to fix your english, your posts are mostly unreadable. You cannot argue with someone you don't even understand.
On December 21 2010 00:35 Mortality wrote: Stats always need to be taken in context. Despite his "horrible" record in ZvT, JD is ranked #2 in vs Terran ELO (#1 ZvT). It just so happens that almost all his games recently have been against the #1 and #2 TvZ players in the world, and yes he lost his more recent games against them, but he's also beaten them during the same time period: right before MSL finals (2-3), JD beat Flash in WCG Korea and right before that he beat Light (3-2 and 2-1).
Yeah, and it should also be said that in his last 20 TvZ's against players beside Flash and Light he is 17-3, with 2 of the losses (and 4 of the wins) coming from at the time #3 TvZ ELO Sea.
On December 21 2010 00:35 Mortality wrote: Stats always need to be taken in context. Despite his "horrible" record in ZvT, JD is ranked #2 in vs Terran ELO (#1 ZvT). It just so happens that almost all his games recently have been against the #1 and #2 TvZ players in the world, and yes he lost his more recent games against them, but he's also beaten them during the same time period: right before MSL finals (2-3), JD beat Flash in WCG Korea and right before that he beat Light (3-2 and 2-1).
Yeah, and it should also be said that in his last 20 TvZ's against players beside Flash and Light he is 17-3, with 2 of the losses (and 4 of the wins) coming from at the time #3 TvZ ELO Sea.
Come to think of it, if we take out his games vs Flash and Light, his ZvT record overall is at 151-72 (67.71 %), compared with 62.23 %. The massive number of games against those two lately have driven down his ZvT percentage quite a bit.
On December 21 2010 02:51 Holgerius wrote: In other words, JD is still the favourite over pretty much anyone regardless of map or match-up, with the exception for Flash.
And Stork, oh man, Stork is favorite against Jaedong atm lol
On December 20 2010 20:41 StylishVODs wrote: Flash dropping out of MSL was a bump in the road ofcourse. But I wouldn't say he should have dropped a spot for that. Seriously, no dual finals for a change isn't that bad is it...
He lost to two no names in straight up games. It is not the end of the world but of course it should count on the power rank ffs! I think PR becomes more and more conservative for every month - when I first came to TL, PR was alot more about the month at hand.
At this point, it's not so much about "Is Flash still #1?" - though in fact Flash is still playing like a #1, even if he's not near his godjwa status of a couple months ago. Okay, you could put him at #2 - but see below. Yeah, the MSL was bad. (In Flash's defense, Classic was one of last year's best rookies and is now on a team with another very good Terran (Bogus), and Ssak is probably this year's best rookie and has fantasy & oov to practice with. They're "no names", but not total scrubs.)
Even if you think Flash isn't really "#1" anymore, what it's really about is, "Is someone else playing well enough to topple him?" Apart from a couple random PRs, #1 usually gets that much benefit of the doubt - and who else is there? Jaedong keeps losing ZvT. Kal's inconsistent in proleague. If I had to pick a #1 based on recent results only, it would be fantasy or Shine (and probably Shine) - and while I'd love to see what the comments would say, I can't justify that big a jump, compared to the way the PR normally works.
Honestly though guys, if Flash was gonna get knocked out of the MSL I'd consider it a worse sign if it happened in a series. He lost 2 Bo1 mirror-matches that he was the favorite in, but is there anyone in the world you'd bet on beating him in a Bo5?
I remember someone saying that their personal guideline was "If aliens landed and we had to choose one person to play a BoX with humanity at stake, who would you choose?" While it might be a bit overly dramatic, I find it hard to believe anyone posting in this thread would choose anyone other than Flash today.
Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
On December 21 2010 00:35 Mortality wrote: Stats always need to be taken in context. Despite his "horrible" record in ZvT, JD is ranked #2 in vs Terran ELO (#1 ZvT). It just so happens that almost all his games recently have been against the #1 and #2 TvZ players in the world, and yes he lost his more recent games against them, but he's also beaten them during the same time period: right before MSL finals (2-3), JD beat Flash in WCG Korea and right before that he beat Light (3-2 and 2-1).
Yeah, and it should also be said that in his last 20 TvZ's against players beside Flash and Light he is 17-3, with 2 of the losses (and 4 of the wins) coming from at the time #3 TvZ ELO Sea.
Come to think of it, if we take out his games vs Flash and Light, his ZvT record overall is at 151-72 (67.71 %), compared with 62.23 %. The massive number of games against those two lately have driven down his ZvT percentage quite a bit.
That's a bit misleading too. It takes out quite a lot of the most meaningful data. At the end of the day, there's no real point looking at how many scrubs JD wipes in Proleague. Besides that, if we're going to look at stats minus S-class rivals, we really ought to do it for everybody (fun fact: Yellow was winning 79% of his ZvT against non-Boxer, non-NaDa for the first 2 years of his career...).
I think my earlier post said it: the most meaningful sign of JD's ZvT ability is his relative ELO (that is, ELO compared to other gamers today). He's almost 100 ELO points over the #2 ZvTer and his vs Terran ELO is #2 of everybody only 20 points behind the vs Terran leader, Flash. ELO can be misleading sometimes, but this is not one of those times. JD is a Terran killer, make no mistake.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
going 12 hatch isn't the problem. He has been trying to be super greedy whenever he plays flash if you have watched it seems he tries to mass expo with a ton of hatcheries then flash just A moves as jaedong has nothing due to using all his money on economy. I feel if Jaedong just did normal zvt rather then try to be greedy against flash he wouldn't lose as much or at least not as bad in any of the games.
Once he gets over his mindset of 8 hatcheries no units build I feel he can take flash in a bo5 but if he doesn't change that style then flash will always beat him in a bo5.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
going 12 hatch isn't the problem. He has been trying to be super greedy whenever he plays flash if you have watched it seems he tries to mass expo with a ton of hatcheries then flash just A moves as jaedong has nothing due to using all his money on economy. I feel if Jaedong just did normal zvt rather then try to be greedy against flash he wouldn't lose as much or at least not as bad in any of the games.
Once he gets over his mindset of 8 hatcheries no units build I feel he can take flash in a bo5 but if he doesn't change that style then flash will always beat him in a bo5.
That is, in a way, what I meant. While zerg wins in a war of aggression, terran wins in greed because 14CC>12 hatch. And Flash kept punishing JD's attempts to play greedy. Not sure why he never understood how rarely that works.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
Nice trolling. Here's a tip: If you want your anti-fanboyism criticism to be taken seriously, don't be ridiculous.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
Nice trolling. Here's a tip: If you want your anti-fanboyism criticism to be taken seriously, don't be ridiculous.
There's not much to take seriously there. It's my opinion and it's probably well-known. I was just replying to a post directed at me. I don't really want to discuss whether or not Flash is boring though, it's something no one will ever agree on.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
Nice trolling. Here's a tip: If you want your anti-fanboyism criticism to be taken seriously, don't be ridiculous.
There's not much to take seriously there. It's my opinion and it's probably well-known. I was just replying to a post directed at me. I don't really want to discuss whether or not Flash is boring though, it's something no one will ever agree on.
Sharp assessment. Then why bring it up? Flash can play virtually any style he wants to and to top it off, better than any other terran. He has shown that on multiple occasions. The thing is, if you don't like player, everything except seeing him lose is probably boring/uninteresting to you.
That's perfectly fine btw. Believe me when I say there are several players I dislike just as much as you probably dislike Flash, your beloved Bisu for example. However you don't see me posting shit about him every chance I get, just because I subjectively dislike him.
That is pretty awesome. Although there's quite a few SC2 unfeatured streams. Maybe I'll start streaming as soon as I feel like playing some serious starcraft.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
Jaedong is actually relatively bad at adapting for someone as good as him. Flash and Savior were both much, much better at adaptation. Flash in particular has made some absolutely insane reads in games (such as Calm's Lurker all in where Flash put up a Bunker before getting any definitive information at all), and Savior used to also be absolutely unbelievable at this stuff.
Let me make this clear, I'm not saying Jaedong is bad at adapting in absolute terms. All I'm saying is that for a player as great as him, his one tiny weakness is that he hasn't been great at adapting to things within a game. A great example is how Canata took game 1 against him in a split bo5 MSL ro8 match about a year and a half back. Fantasy's first two wins in their OSL final is another one. His first encounter with Flash's Katrina mech also resulted in very questionable decisions, and there are many other examples of this (don't remember which staff writer had a great post about this, but it exists out there somewhere).
Flash on the other hand can be stubborn and greedy to the point of great detriment. His 14cc phase is overblown somewhat since really that passed a long time ago (then again my examples for Jaedong's adaptiveness are also from pretty long ago), but still there are plenty of examples. However, Flash is almost certainly the greatest on the fly defender of all time (see Flash vs. Kal on TvP graveyard Medusa), and a combination of his skill plus the Terran race makes him the best comeback player ever too.
Anyway, I don't know which of the two players I'd prefer, but Jaedong is probably not a better adapter than Flash.
To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
On December 21 2010 07:05 TaimalaiX wrote:Edit: Well except maybe Lightwip, but if we let him choose - we'd all die watching Bisu get run over.
Actually I'd choose Jaedong because he's most able to adapt to situations(unless he's being a stubborn shit like against Flash and going 12 hatch every damn game). Or Canata so he could just bore the aliens into leaving. Flash would probably do the same though.
Jaedong is actually relatively bad at adapting for someone as good as him. Flash and Savior were both much, much better at adaptation. Flash in particular has made some absolutely insane reads in games (such as Calm's Lurker all in where Flash put up a Bunker before getting any definitive information at all), and Savior used to also be absolutely unbelievable at this stuff.
Let me make this clear, I'm not saying Jaedong is bad at adapting in absolute terms. All I'm saying is that for a player as great as him, his one tiny weakness is that he hasn't been great at adapting to things within a game. A great example is how Canata took game 1 against him in a split bo5 MSL ro8 match about a year and a half back. Fantasy's first two wins in their OSL final is another one. His first encounter with Flash's Katrina mech also resulted in very questionable decisions, and there are many other examples of this (don't remember which staff writer had a great post about this, but it exists out there somewhere).
Flash on the other hand can be stubborn and greedy to the point of great detriment. His 14cc phase is overblown somewhat since really that passed a long time ago (then again my examples for Jaedong's adaptiveness are also from pretty long ago), but still there are plenty of examples. However, Flash is almost certainly the greatest on the fly defender of all time (see Flash vs. Kal on TvP graveyard Medusa), and a combination of his skill plus the Terran race makes him the best comeback player ever too.
Anyway, I don't know which of the two players I'd prefer, but Jaedong is probably not a better adapter than Flash.
I was referring more to Jaedong's adaptability in a series. Yes he got destroyed the first two games against Fantasy, but he managed to find a weakness and thrice cut Fantasy down to win Batoo. Yes his adaption seems to be lacking against Flash's 14CC. I think it's the same as the bunker rush mentality, only I find it stupid that JD never found merit in 9 pool. Then again, Flash had his own moment of failed adapting against Effort. Flash is a better defender, that much is true. But I'd attribute that in part to the terran race more than his own skill to be honest(not trying to detract from his skill, just terran is good at turtling). But I suppose I see what you mean. Flash may indeed be a better choice.
I actually think both JD and Flash are loosing quite a bit of dominance recently. JD basicaly was very lucky in a number of games (Pure and jangbi for example). Flash droping out of the MSL in maybe the easiest group was a big shocker. If they do not get their game together we might have someone else on top soon. The competition is a lot stiffer than a few month ago where pretty much everyone who could oppose them whent into slumps. Hoping for stork to keep his fire and Fantasy pulling himself together.
On December 21 2010 15:36 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
I honestly don't think you can look at the sheer number of mind boggling comebacks and say that anyone has ever been better than Flash at adapting within a game. Boxer and Nada were definitely the most adaptive to the game as a whole considering how long they remained relevant, but Flash is easily the best player ever at taking an uncomfortable situation and making all the right calls to fix it. It's basically the hallmark of his bonjwa reign to pull off those comebacks.
On December 21 2010 23:50 luckybeni2 wrote: I actually think both JD and Flash are loosing quite a bit of dominance recently. JD basicaly was very lucky in a number of games (Pure and jangbi for example). Flash droping out of the MSL in maybe the easiest group was a big shocker. If they do not get their game together we might have someone else on top soon. The competition is a lot stiffer than a few month ago where pretty much everyone who could oppose them whent into slumps. Hoping for stork to keep his fire and Fantasy pulling himself together.
Our expectations have been raised too such a height, it's been crazy.
Flash had a blip. Top players used to have them all the time. For all the reminiscing about how Savior was dominant, he couldn't get out of the OSL prelims season and season and he never dominated the teamleagues nearly as well as Flash and Jaedong.
Believe or not, dual leagues is not the norm, it's the aberration! It's very hard to stay in both leagues with that kind of workload.
Edit: Someone brought before how Savior went 16-5 in two rounds of proleague once. That's what Jaedong has right now after his loss to Light, and people are talking about how he's fallen off a bit.
Flash and Jaedong do this EVERY season and they do it with a much heavier workload than Savior.
On December 21 2010 23:50 luckybeni2 wrote: I actually think both JD and Flash are loosing quite a bit of dominance recently. JD basicaly was very lucky in a number of games (Pure and jangbi for example). Flash droping out of the MSL in maybe the easiest group was a big shocker. If they do not get their game together we might have someone else on top soon. The competition is a lot stiffer than a few month ago where pretty much everyone who could oppose them whent into slumps. Hoping for stork to keep his fire and Fantasy pulling himself together.
Our expectations have been raised too such a height, it's been crazy.
Flash had a blip. Top players used to have them all the time. For all the reminiscing about how Savior was dominant, he couldn't get out of the OSL prelims season and season and he never dominated the teamleagues nearly as well as Flash and Jaedong.
Believe or not, dual leagues is not the norm, it's the aberration! It's very hard to stay in both leagues with that kind of workload.
Edit: Someone brought before how Savior went 16-5 in two rounds of proleague once. That's what Jaedong has right now after his loss to Light, and people are talking about how he's fallen off a bit.
Flash and Jaedong do this EVERY season and they do it with a much heavier workload than Savior.
Th thing with Flash and his MSL group is that it really was one of the worst groups ever in MSL history. 1 player nobody ever heard of, one mediocre and a guy named Ssak. That is bad even for MST. The thing with JD is that he looks very sloppy. There are so many mistakes and sooner or later people will capitalise. Anyway I just hope we get a more even player field because honestly I think the JD Flash era was at least for the last year pretty boring in terms of single player leagues. Too many good players fell from grace and were replaced by one it wonders.
That's not historically bad. They're new and inexperienced and comparatively weak. They were still A-teamers who fought through Survivor. Just because they're unknown doesn't mean they're terrible players.
Savior was thrown out by the likes of b-teamers in the OSL several seasons in a row.
On December 21 2010 15:36 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
I honestly don't think you can look at the sheer number of mind boggling comebacks and say that anyone has ever been better than Flash at adapting within a game. Boxer and Nada were definitely the most adaptive to the game as a whole considering how long they remained relevant, but Flash is easily the best player ever at taking an uncomfortable situation and making all the right calls to fix it. It's basically the hallmark of his bonjwa reign to pull off those comebacks.
You can't say that comeback=adaptability. In his comebacks Flash relies just as heavily on his superior mechanics as on his adaptability. Besides, it would be unfair because it is more or less impossible for a zerg to do a comeback, atleast in early game. Lose 10 scvs ? No problem just survive and turtle if you are better than your opponent. If you lose 10 drones early in the game it would be impossible even for a top zerg to beat an icup player. Then again, if that is the "hallmark of a bonjwa", it is not that strange that all bonjwas have been terran.
So most of the time when JD doesn't adapt it is, I think, because he would be screwed if he didn't follow through the attack. On the other hand he sometimes looks too stubborn, like in the game vs Sea last season when he refused to build lings. This was not the case with the game against light though.
On December 21 2010 23:50 luckybeni2 wrote: I actually think both JD and Flash are loosing quite a bit of dominance recently. JD basicaly was very lucky in a number of games (Pure and jangbi for example). Flash droping out of the MSL in maybe the easiest group was a big shocker. If they do not get their game together we might have someone else on top soon. The competition is a lot stiffer than a few month ago where pretty much everyone who could oppose them whent into slumps. Hoping for stork to keep his fire and Fantasy pulling himself together.
Umm. can you explain how he was lucky against Pure?
On December 21 2010 15:36 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
I honestly don't think you can look at the sheer number of mind boggling comebacks and say that anyone has ever been better than Flash at adapting within a game. Boxer and Nada were definitely the most adaptive to the game as a whole considering how long they remained relevant, but Flash is easily the best player ever at taking an uncomfortable situation and making all the right calls to fix it. It's basically the hallmark of his bonjwa reign to pull off those comebacks.
You can't say that comeback=adaptability. In his comebacks Flash relies just as heavily on his superior mechanics as on his adaptability. Besides, it would be unfair because it is more or less impossible for a zerg to do a comeback, atleast in early game. Lose 10 scvs ? No problem just survive and turtle if you are better than your opponent. If you lose 10 drones early in the game it would be impossible even for a top zerg to beat an icup player. Then again, if that is the "hallmark of a bonjwa", it is not that strange that all bonjwas have been terran.
So most of the time when JD doesn't adapt it is, I think, because he would be screwed if he didn't follow through the attack. On the other hand he sometimes looks too stubborn, like in the game vs Sea last season when he refused to build lings. This was not the case with the game against light though.
The way Flash comesback = adaptability. I mean unless you just haven't been paying attention for the last year. I'm absolutely sick of people bringing up turtling as why Flash comes back from hugely disadvantageous positions. He does absolutely everything you can imagine to comeback in his games: harass, defend, push, drop, double expand, completely changing his build and unit composition on the spur of the moment, anything you can think of Flash has done sometime this year. I can't believe people are arguing this otherwise and doing so with the absolutely inane "well he turtles alot" argument.
It's a weird world where the most aggressive player this side of Kwanro gets labeled with turtle.
On December 21 2010 15:36 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
I honestly don't think you can look at the sheer number of mind boggling comebacks and say that anyone has ever been better than Flash at adapting within a game. Boxer and Nada were definitely the most adaptive to the game as a whole considering how long they remained relevant, but Flash is easily the best player ever at taking an uncomfortable situation and making all the right calls to fix it. It's basically the hallmark of his bonjwa reign to pull off those comebacks.
Firstly, you are confusing what it means to stage a comeback with what it means to be adaptable. As I said, Flash relies heavily on his skill at fundamentals to keep him in the game. How many times have I seen 2-3 well placed tanks and superior multitasking allow Flash to break an attack and then suddenly he's actually ahead in supply, knows it, and throws down a quick third to secure the advantage?
That's not adaptability. That's just winning on skill.
Secondly, you have admitted yourself in prior discussions to not following progaming back when Boxer was top dog. Boxer had this nasty little habit of turning around a game not by relying just on his superior micro (which he did do sometimes), but by completely changing strategies and pulling off plays nobody had even thought of before.
And by the way... comeback victories are pretty much a hallmark of any bonjwa, although maybe Oov least of all the bonjwas.
On December 21 2010 15:36 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
I honestly don't think you can look at the sheer number of mind boggling comebacks and say that anyone has ever been better than Flash at adapting within a game. Boxer and Nada were definitely the most adaptive to the game as a whole considering how long they remained relevant, but Flash is easily the best player ever at taking an uncomfortable situation and making all the right calls to fix it. It's basically the hallmark of his bonjwa reign to pull off those comebacks.
You can't say that comeback=adaptability. In his comebacks Flash relies just as heavily on his superior mechanics as on his adaptability. Besides, it would be unfair because it is more or less impossible for a zerg to do a comeback, atleast in early game. Lose 10 scvs ? No problem just survive and turtle if you are better than your opponent. If you lose 10 drones early in the game it would be impossible even for a top zerg to beat an icup player. Then again, if that is the "hallmark of a bonjwa", it is not that strange that all bonjwas have been terran.
So most of the time when JD doesn't adapt it is, I think, because he would be screwed if he didn't follow through the attack. On the other hand he sometimes looks too stubborn, like in the game vs Sea last season when he refused to build lings. This was not the case with the game against light though.
The way Flash comesback = adaptability. I mean unless you just haven't been paying attention for the last year. I'm absolutely sick of people bringing up turtling as why Flash comes back from hugely disadvantageous positions. He does absolutely everything you can imagine to comeback in his games: harass, defend, push, drop, double expand, completely changing his build and unit composition on the spur of the moment, anything you can think of Flash has done sometime this year.
It's damn hard to take a massive econ and army disadvantage, and turn it into a victory against a person who plays the game for a living. And Flash is to be applauded for doing so many times.
But his 'insane comebacks' would be impossible in PvT, PvP, or ZvZ, because his opponent would roll up to his base and kill him. Not even Flash can harass, push, drop, double expand, completely change his build on the fly and swap unit compositions in the 30 seconds it takes to get 1a2a3a'd when your army is 50+ food behind and you're not playing Terran. (Or Defiler ZvT.)
Flash has vastly more space to stage sick comebacks than Bisu/Stork/Jaedong because his is the race against which "GO FUCKING KILL HIM" is least viable.
On December 21 2010 15:36 Mortality wrote: To be honest, I've always felt JD was better at adapting than Flash. With Flash, a number of his more noteworthy losses have been from players using his own timings against him. When he's pressed to the wall he relies too heavily on his superior fundamentals to keep him in the game. But that's not what I'd call "adaptation."
Not that either is "bad" at adaptation.
But if you want to talk about adaptation within a game the answer is Boxer. Full stop. There should be no debate on that. I'd also rank NaDa and Savior ahead of Flash and Jaedong. Not sure about Oov though.
I honestly don't think you can look at the sheer number of mind boggling comebacks and say that anyone has ever been better than Flash at adapting within a game. Boxer and Nada were definitely the most adaptive to the game as a whole considering how long they remained relevant, but Flash is easily the best player ever at taking an uncomfortable situation and making all the right calls to fix it. It's basically the hallmark of his bonjwa reign to pull off those comebacks.
Firstly, you are confusing what it means to stage a comeback with what it means to be adaptable. As I said, Flash relies heavily on his skill at fundamentals to keep him in the game. How many times have I seen 2-3 well placed tanks and superior multitasking allow Flash to break an attack and then suddenly he's actually ahead in supply, knows it, and throws down a quick third to secure the advantage?
That's not adaptability. That's just winning on skill.
Secondly, you have admitted yourself in prior discussions to not following progaming back when Boxer was top dog. Boxer had this nasty little habit of turning around a game not by relying just on his superior micro (which he did do sometimes), but by completely changing strategies and pulling off plays nobody had even thought of before.
And by the way... comeback victories are pretty much a hallmark of any bonjwa, although maybe Oov least of all the bonjwas.
I didn't follow progaming back then but every amazing game by boxer has been linked on this forum ad infinitum (or atleast it was before SC2 popped up). Point is, Flash has done exactly what you said several times, most notably in TvZs (vs Calm on Fighting Spirit and Kwanro on Roadrunner as my two biggest examples), but there's no end to his TvT victories that make no sense. I'd say his TvP is rather tacit in comparison, but there's still examples of those, too (Flash vs Movie on HBR, that one game I'm forgetting where, right as carriers come out to break his army, he kills 3 of the Toss's bases within 2 minutes). I'm sure there's plenty I'm missing since I don't have a perfect memory, but Flash has done crazy shit no one had seen before in every matchup to win in hopeless situations where he had been previously outmaneuvered. If that isn't adaptability then I don't know what is.
Maybe Boxer was comparable, the game was really new back then and doing something no one had ever thought of was a regular occurrence for him, but adaptive within a game means something different than that -- the stuff boxer did was innovative but very, very planned. Adapting to a situation is the exact opposite of that.
Flash vs Calm was an amazing game, but I'm hesitant to call it "adaptation" when it's Flash's standard lategame scenario when he has good mid-map control but the Zerg has 4-5 gas and he's unable to break the Zerg's positioning. I don't remember or didn't see Flash vs Kwanro so I'll check it out later.
His TvT victories actually make much more sense than you think. The massive replay leak that happened a while ago (a year? longer?) featured a ton of Flash TvT's in which Flash would often get behind in very similar situations to what we've seen on TV. Pause game, click on Flash's stuff, click on opponent's stuff. The opponent never holds more than about a 10 supply advantage ever. Flash will often look like he's in a totally inferior position because he has so few units, but he has more coming out and they're always magically ready before his opponent can reinforce. He breaks the attack. Suddenly he's even or ahead in supply and starts another expansion and/or moves on the offensive. It's like clockwork. It's a masterful display of skill and I don't doubt that Flash is the greatest TvT player ever (only NaDa during a "brief" ~18 month period looked anything like that, nobody else ever came close, and Flash has been doing it for longer now... granted, the game is changing more slowly now than back then, but still...), but it's not so much "adaptation" as just raw skill. No matter how pressed he is, Flash just doesn't make those positioning errors everyone else makes.
Although to be honest, I don't think TvT is the best place to talk about adaptation because it's too easy to confuse "adapting" in the sense of playing a better game of chess without really doing anything "new" and "adapting" in the sense I am interested in... which is...
Adaptation, from my point of view, means -- in a general context -- evolving in order to deal with a new and unexpected threat. The core of what it means to adapt within a game means addressing a new problem by changing your thinking about how to deal with your opponent over the course of a game. There's a lot of gray area in terms of what constitutes this, but what I'm really looking for more than anything is throwing the playbook out the window and improvising a new strategy (not just a tweak on an old timing, as we see Flash so often do, but an actual whole "new" strategy, at least "new" in the sense that nobody has used it before in that kind of situation or alternatively thought it possible to use in such a way when everything was at stake). This can mean playing defense when conventional wisdom of your prior strategy was offense, or offense when wisdom suggested defense, or making a particular choice in where or how you attack that is new and different to deal with something new, or suddenly using an unexpected unit combination as an unrehearsed response (the term unrehearsed is crucial, yet this is a sticking point since we can't actually read the minds of the players), or it can mean, yes, a "pimp play," for instance Nal_Ra's mass hallucination would count because the strategy had been used before but until then never performed at that level, always staying at the theorycrafting or newb bashing on US East level.
By definition, any prepackaged plan for dealing with a similar threat fails to qualify when we talk about adaptation within a single game. For instance, Flash really likes that early/midgame press attack in TvP and TvT and he can adjust that timing as needed to what he sees. NaDa actually had a tendency to do something similar and Midas also pioneered in that direction. It's a great feat of skill but... It's a prepackaged deal and tweaking that timing isn't what I'm referring to unless the press is altered in a way it wasn't meant to be altered. It's a form of "adaptation" in a different sense of the word, but if that's what you are referring to, then you're just saying Flash has the best timing sense of anyone ever. Well... duh! I would expect him to have better timing sense than players from previous generations who were not benefiting from modern knowledge and especially better than players from the early years when timing wasn't even a buzzword yet!
But I don't think that's what this conversation is all about and it's certainly not what I'm about.
You know, I stopped reading the comments here a long time ago because the only thing it contains is Flash fanboy vs Jaedong fanboy vs anti-fans or either or both player.
It seems like time hasn't changed a thing. Doesn't it ever get boring folks?
Hmm, I just noticed: Flash didn't win a single game in the MSL. I think he meant to say that no player that he can beat in the MSL exists. + Show Spoiler +
Only kidding.
Also, Shine vs Stork may be pretty important for ELO this time around.
Now we get Flash-JD(17 points off) then Bisu, Stork(6 points off), Shine(2 points off), then Fantasy(5 points off). Things just got interesting. Flash dropped maybe 19 points from that Hyukking.
What's up with Fantasy, he was on a 12 wins streak and now he keeps loosing :-(. You make your fans sad. Although I guess for a non-fan seeing the top players doing so bad makes things more interesting.
On December 22 2010 23:23 flamewheel wrote: My life is going to be hell next month writing this.
Yea, I guess you're on for some severe headache. I feel for you. Whatever PR you will write will be controversial. Maybe we will have 1000+ replies like last summer. But at least it makes things a lot more interesting isn't it?
On December 22 2010 23:23 flamewheel wrote: My life is going to be hell next month writing this.
1. Bisu 2. Jaedong 3. Shine 4. Stork 5. Fantasy 6. Flash 7. Hyuk 8. Ssak 9. Classic 10. Kal ezpz But seriously, I don't think you can give Flash the 'benefit of the doubt' anymore. Losing 1 SL can be a fluke, losing 2 means there's something wrong.
On December 22 2010 23:23 flamewheel wrote: My life is going to be hell next month writing this.
bohaha yes, better look for fanboy-proof hideout
But even though I hate Shine with passion I think it is pretty obvious that the way things look atm no one could complain if he would get ranked higher than Flash.
On December 23 2010 04:07 Fenrax wrote: But even though I hate Shine with passion I think it is pretty obvious that the way things look atm no one could complain if he would get ranked higher than Flash.
I'd actually agree with this. Back when Bisu was at #1 then got 2-0'd in both leagues(even though it was in the ToTM era), he dropped all the way down to #5. Not quite as bad here, but dropping both leagues is quite significant.
On December 22 2010 23:23 flamewheel wrote: My life is going to be hell next month writing this.
1. Bisu 2. Jaedong 3. Shine 4. Stork 5. Fantasy 6. Flash 7. Hyuk 8. Ssak 9. Classic 10. Kal ezpz But seriously, I don't think you can give Flash the 'benefit of the doubt' anymore. Losing 1 SL can be a fluke, losing 2 means there's something wrong.
Bisu over Shine? Really? The fact that you've got Bisu #1 is really almost an incidental complaint (even though it's totally ridiculous) compared to that.
I realize I'm a big Shine fanboy, but seriously here.
I don't think Bisu can be #1. If Jaedong drops out of OSL, I could see Shine or Stork at #1. We still have so many games to go, so it's very theoretical at this point. Bisu vs Shine in the MSL is bound to be epic I have to say. Hell, even Kal could finally claim that first spot, he is looking better than ever right now. If Jaedong survives his OSL group he is a given at #1. The Dong in 2 leagues plus a very solid SPL record (That we consider 16-5 bad says quite a lot actually, but that's probably because of those 3 ace-game losses) can only be #1 after what happened to Flash. Flash himself can only stay first, if the OSL miracle happens and all of the other guys mess up at some point. Going 1-4 in those two groups is simply not worthy of a number #1, even if he is a reigning Bonjwa.
To sum up, at this point I can see literally everyone in the Top6 claim #1 somehow (I'm not up to date on Fantasy, but if he survives both leagues, why not). Bisu #1 would push it too far though, he is good, but he is not even in the OSL and to make up for that it needs more than brilliant SPL performances. In my opinion, he has to convincingly dominate his MSL group to get into top3.
Anyway, Flamewheel will be rightfully burned for his next ranking, 'cause there is probablly no way to get it right and we all like to rage On a related note, I found this months ranking from 1-8 completely accurate (and very well written, with good reasoning), and I don't care about 6-10 anyway.
That was a fanboyish PR. I think it would be more like this. 1. Jaedong - Still really, really good despite some key losses. 2. Bisu - PL beast, definitely here if he advances out of his MSL group. If not, down 2-3. 3. Flash - dropping both leagues is BAD. Especially to rookies and Hyuk. 4. Shine - Wtf why is he so good? 5. Stork - He's really good too, but he lost to Shine 6. Fantasy - Quite a bad hiccup. 7. Kal - Good, but not amazing. 8. Hydra - Still a solid player. 9. Leta - Pretty good in PL. 10. Light - who else is decent?
On December 23 2010 07:15 Lightwip wrote: That was a fanboyish PR. I think it would be more like this. 1. Jaedong - Still really, really good despite some key losses. 2. Bisu - PL beast, definitely here if he advances out of his MSL group. If not, down 2-3. 3. Flash - dropping both leagues is BAD. Especially to rookies and Hyuk. 4. Shine - Wtf why is he so good? 5. Stork - He's really good too, but he lost to Shine 6. Fantasy - Quite a bad hiccup. 7. Kal - Good, but not amazing. 8. Hydra - Still a solid player. 9. Leta - Pretty good in PL. 10. Light - who else is decent?
Flash isn't out yet, right? If Paralyze beats Kal we get a tie-breaker and while these aren't the best maps for a Terran to make it on a tie-breaker vs two good PvT players, this is also Flash, "slump" or no. If a tie-breaker does happen, I'll bet on Flash to make it.
Jaedong actually could conceivably drop also. If he loses to Hogil he's out. If he beats Hogil he's in a tie-breaker vs Hiya and Calm (top 2 advancing). His chances are favorable to make it to the Ro8, but not guaranteed. I'll bet he makes it regardless.
Bisu at #1? You better hope he decimates his MSL group, otherwise there's No. Fucking. Way.
Shine retains a top 5 spot, possibly moving up.
Stork retains a high spot, depending a bit on MSL performance.
Fantasy could yet turn this month around with a strong showing in MSL.
I like Light and he's produced wins over Flash and JD this month, but I expect a drop given that I have little faith in him escaping his MSL group. Stork will decimate him and then regardless of how shy vs roro turns out, Light will have to play twice vs Protoss, at least once vs Stork.
Kal... I think he'll advance in at least one league and maybe keep a PR spot but I expect him to drop in rank. If he doesn't advance, goodbye.
And Sea, goodbye.
If Hydra passes his MSL group, I expect to see him retain a position.
The Contenders:
A good showing in MSL would bring Calm back into the picture. As of now, I'm leaning towards CBNC minimum.
Leta is on a monster tear right now and deserves a PR spot. 10 game win streak right now. Prevailing in his MSL group (IMO the group of death) would shoot him up the ranks.
Roro: prevailing in MSL could earn a low rank.
Action: keep an eye on him for the month's remainder.
Let's see if Modesty can continue his current streak of 7 wins.
Great (the final member of the group of death along with Fantasy, Leta and Soulkey) has turned in some proleague wins lately. But now I'm starting to really stretch for contenders.
On December 23 2010 07:15 Lightwip wrote: That was a fanboyish PR. I think it would be more like this. 1. Jaedong - Still really, really good despite some key losses. 2. Bisu - PL beast, definitely here if he advances out of his MSL group. If not, down 2-3. 3. Flash - dropping both leagues is BAD. Especially to rookies and Hyuk. 4. Shine - Wtf why is he so good? 5. Stork - He's really good too, but he lost to Shine 6. Fantasy - Quite a bad hiccup. 7. Kal - Good, but not amazing. 8. Hydra - Still a solid player. 9. Leta - Pretty good in PL. 10. Light - who else is decent?
IMO, we've got a number of viable #1 candidates at the moment:
Flash - for all I'd not like to see him here based on current record, if he survives the OSL group and MSL Group H turns into a circus-style massive screw-up, and Jaedong loses another ace match (or loses to HoGiL), Flash is good enough he still has to be considered. Jaedong - while he's not automatic in ace matches anymore, he's through the MSL Ro16, looks to advance in the OSL with what should be an easy game against HoGiL and then a tiebreaker against HiyA and Calm. This all makes him the frontrunner for #1 at the moment. Of course, if he loses to HoGiL, or messes up in the tiebreaker, he probably drops from #2 instead of climbing. Shine - based purely on recent performance - minus a wtf game against Mind - Shine looks like a very good #1 candidate - maybe even the best.
Also in the running: Bisu - his individual leagues so far are, uh, less than impressive. He's losing a little more in PL than he was. But he's still very good, and you might be able to make an argument in a week or so, depending on other results. Kal - is probably the best Protoss right now, but his proleague record is downright distressing. Stork - is also probably the best Protoss right now, and is finally getting out of his proleague funk, and is doing pretty okay in both leagues (pending tonight's MSL group, of course). Fantasy - polar opposite of Bisu, his league results are pretty shiny while his proleague results are mediocre, not to say streaky. Could be completely out of consideration if he can't find his groove in an MSL group with two Zergs and Leta.
Honorable mentions: Leta and Hydra are both holding up 8-0 records in PL R2 and have done decently-ish in the leagues as well. Also in the "Proleague heros", I really think Bogus deserves some recognition as well. I also don't know what to make of Light - the MSL group will tell a lot.
Possible rank, at this moment:
1. Jaedong 2. Flash 3. Shine 4. Kal 5. Stork 6. Bisu 7. fantasy 8. Leta 9. Hydra 10. Light
Crucial things: Flash vs Paralyze + tiebreakers; MSL group D (tonight) MSL group G (Bisu, Kal, Shine); Jaedong vs HoGiL + tiebreakers; MSL group C (fantasy, Leta, Soulkey).
You know, I really have no idea where Shine should be. He has an insane winstreak, yet his games are all not that inspiring. Not sure what to do there but wait and see.
If the rank were made at this moment, I don't see how Kal could be put ahead of Stork. Funny, I usually think Stork gets overhyped on a month-to-month basis. Right now they seem comparable in individual leagues but Stork has been performing better in proleague and has higher ELO and perhaps his chances at advancing are better. I'd also drop Light in favor of Calm. I like Light and he's holding his own against tough competition but he's not in OSL and he's liable to drop in MSL due to his finicky TvP. Calm is likely to advance in at least one league.
A lot right now is pending individual league results, especially for Flash who is depending on newbie Paralyze to beat Kal, the #2 PvP player in the world behind one match wonder Horang2. (Kal is #3 PvP ELO and #2 PvP ELO is Bisu who has a losing record vs Kal both lifetime and recently.) Ain't it a hoot that Flash fans have to root for a boy from SKT1?
...And for Bisu. Come to think of it, his group in MSL (H) may be the group of death with Really as the weakest opponent...
And by combining these two considerations, a lot is up in the air for Kal, who is involved in both of these, but unlike Flash and Bisu, he doesn't have strong proleague results to his name right now.
Edit: For the record, as much as I like to think that Power Rank should be about skill rather than just plain old results, I don't think anyone not qualified for either league should be ahead of players qualified for both leagues without some seriously, seriously compelling arguments. Dropping individual league games has always mattered more to me than some random proleague loss, even if Flash's results have most likely been a fluke. I can see someone in only one league being ahead of players in both leagues depending on quality of matches (one must make some allowances for randomness, difficulty of groups, etc.), but I can't see putting zero over two. Potentially, this can mean JD, Shine, Stork, Kal, Calm and Fantasy ahead of Flash and Bisu. Quite the stunner, eh?
well to be fair, many things can happen until next pr. But Flash loosing his first spot is pretty much a given. You can't get kicked out of both league without some result on you rank.
Jaedong/Shine/Stork/Kal/Bisu/Flash/Someotherguyswhoareinbothleagues ? I really like my order. Maybe Flash and Bisu a bit lower. But hey, the month is not over !
Flash isn't kicked out yet and Shine and Kal have to face-off in the (arguable) group of death in order to advance in MSL. Fantasy could still make it in both leagues by advancing in the other (arguable) group of death. And Calm advances at least in MSL and possibly in OSL depending on JD...
And if Bisu fails his group then I can't see him ahead of Flash, so... hold your horses.
No, Flash definitely deserves to drop. If he makes it out of tiebreakers, it does indeed mean he's still in the OSL, but one would have to wonder why he was in that position in the first place. So for at least a month he would probably have to drop at least 1-2.
On December 24 2010 00:12 Mortality wrote: Flash isn't kicked out yet and Shine and Kal have to face-off in the (arguable) group of death in order to advance in MSL. Fantasy could still make it in both leagues by advancing in the other (arguable) group of death. And Calm advances at least in MSL and possibly in OSL depending on JD...
And if Bisu fails his group then I can't see him ahead of Flash, so... hold your horses.
no even if he gets into the tie breakers and does make it into the OSL he should still drop. He's relying on complete luck right now to have any chance at advancing into the OSL and the way he's lost his games he should not be #1 next month no matter what.
Yeah flash should drop, how much though? Drop him too far and the PR won't be accurate even if the results back it up.
I would still bet on him to play a bo5 vs invading aliens, but dropping out of both leagues like this definately deserves some sort of action taken on the PR.
On December 24 2010 02:24 Lightwip wrote: No, Flash definitely deserves to drop. If he makes it out of tiebreakers, it does indeed mean he's still in the OSL, but one would have to wonder why he was in that position in the first place. So for at least a month he would probably have to drop at least 1-2.
On December 24 2010 00:12 Mortality wrote: Flash isn't kicked out yet and Shine and Kal have to face-off in the (arguable) group of death in order to advance in MSL. Fantasy could still make it in both leagues by advancing in the other (arguable) group of death. And Calm advances at least in MSL and possibly in OSL depending on JD...
And if Bisu fails his group then I can't see him ahead of Flash, so... hold your horses.
no even if he gets into the tie breakers and does make it into the OSL he should still drop. He's relying on complete luck right now to have any chance at advancing into the OSL and the way he's lost his games he should not be #1 next month no matter what.
I agree completely and I never disputed this.
And additionally, I already stated that I do not believe that a player qualified for neither league (as may happen) should be ahead of a player qualified for both, regardless of proleague results. Potentially this could mean Flash (and Bisu) not even being in the top 5.
Although I would argue that if Flash does luck into a tie-breaker and does survive it then he should be ahead of Bisu except for maybe, maybe a situation where Bisu thoroughly demolishes his group.
Let's pretend they both advance. Then what? I'd probably do something like: 1. JD 2-3. Shine and Stork (depending on whether Shine advances in MSL as well) 4. Flash 5. Bisu 6. Calm with Fantasy, and Kal as wildcards in the ranking depending on how they do for the rest of the month. Or maybe Calm should be higher given his recent resurgence, but I think given how sucky he was playing just recently he should be below Flash and Bisu if they advance. Note that if both Flash and Bisu advance, then Kal can only potentially advance if Shine does not advance. So if Flash, Bisu and Shine advance, then Kal drops from both leagues and potentially speaking drops out of the top 10.
Let's say Flash and Bisu both drop. I'll assume that means Kal and Shine advance in MSL although theoretically Really could advance instead of one of them. Then probably something like this is what I'd do: 1. JD 2. Shine 3. Stork 4. Kal 5. Calm* 6. Flash 7. Bisu *If Fantasy advances in MSL 2-0 I would put him as #5 over Calm, if he advances at all I would put him as #6.
So... ouch?
If Bisu advances and Flash does not then he would rank ahead of Flash, but his exact place would depend on how convincingly he advances.
Remember: this ranking is premised on the idea that a player in both leagues should be ahead of a player in neither. This month's results make the ranking somewhat difficult. As far as I'm concerned, our top 10 has more or less solidified unless major changes happen. In no particular order: JD, Shine, Stork, Fantasy, Calm, Kal, Flash, Bisu, Leta and Hydra. I suppose in theory Fantasy or Kal could still drop from the list but the others are on it regardless of what happens. Of course, their place can still change pending results (or lack thereof). The CBNC list is likely to feature Bogus, Brave, Baby and possibly, just possibly, ggaemo for their proleague performances, and possibly Action if his resurgence continues.
Barring major issues, this ranking is difficult, but actually not as bad as it might seem. The mess is occurring in the top 5-8 players since some perennial powers are not performing when the chips are down (Flash...) and others are only performing when the chips are down (Kal I'm looking at you) and others still are being a little unpredictable (Calm and his evil twin Clam keep switching places and then there's Fantasy...). But I'm actually a little happy that this won't be a month where the PR writer is tossing random names in for the bottom spots just to fill the places as if they don't matter, because they do.
Pretty much agree with all that. Nevertheless, this PR is sure gonna take quite a bit of work to do. It's actually relatively straightforward, but a lot of variables need to be considered. Also, Hydra is still godmoding except in that one game against Fantasy. WTF?!?!?
He certainly does get wins, yet his play is hardly something amazing enough to call him "good." But for me, the threshold for "good" is about Leta-level.
Heh, Shine actually looks pretty unstoppable this time around. There's really only a few players left in the OSL that I'd count on beating him. Right now, the results could go so many ways. It really comes down to a few crucial games. You know what, I'm just gonna wait till today's games to discuss all the possibilities for the PR.
On December 24 2010 08:26 flamewheel wrote: Hey okay I only ever have to toss in 10
I was fine with Light being "tossed in." And actually I thought it was a pretty good choice. (Edit: #7 ELO currently and playing a lot of tough opponents... shame he had to play 3 games vs Protoss in MSL) But go back and look at PR history. So many times 8-10 have just been "yeah, I didn't know who to put, so I just put this dude."
I'd say, just rank players by the number of wins they have this month. Its much easier and more fair since if you are out of a league, you will most likely not play as much games as those who plays in it therefore, you wont get more wins.
On December 24 2010 16:38 Xiphos wrote: I'd say, just rank players by the number of wins they have this month. Its much easier and more fair since if you are out of a league, you will most likely not play as much games as those who plays in it therefore, you wont get more wins.
Yes, I completely agree. These rankings would be extremely accurate. Additionally, we could save ourselfes the wirte-up and just create a link for the TLPD where the players are listed. That would be sweet. If several players have the same win:loss ratio, we will just put them all at the same rank. Or maybe we use APM as a tiebreaker who should be up higher. Also the pleasure of never have to discuss some weird rookie who goes 4-0/ 3-1 two months in a row. As long as we have some veterans with a nice 5-8 record dropping out of MSL Survivor and losing ace matches, we are good. I would be extremely excited to read those PRs.
When was the last time neither Flash or Jaedong was #1? Because that series just ended with OSL Day 6. Terrible play by Jaedong, really really terrible.
So, what does this mean? O_o JD is not looking invincible by any means, losing ace games and dropping out of OSL. Really interesting stuff happening in the world of SC right now...
Seriously, who the fuck could've possible imagined at the beginning of this season that Flash would've dropped out of both Starleagues and JD out of OSL after the groupstages? I'm so confused right now.
On December 24 2010 20:20 Lightwip wrote: I feel sorry for you Flamewheel. And I suppose it really comes down to how Bisu and Shine do. It's gonna be Bisu, JD, Shine, or Stork #1 imo.
I cannot see Bisu at #1 at all and I don't know what makes you think he could be. He is playing good, yes, but he wasn't even in the OSL and does not have some super strong back-up months to fall back upon.
Shine or Stork are my best bets right now, but nobody really can predict anything anymore. Such a weird time after this long period of domination by 2 players (and of course Flash much more than JD, but still).
In all honesty, I'd only see Bisu at #1 if both Stork and Shine drop a league while he doesn't. Although if he makes it in MSL I'd put him at #2 right now because he advances against stronger opponents. Shine, I have no idea. Anywhere from 1-3 at this point. Might have to use PL as a tiebreaker.
flamewheel 6:31:18 AM Hrm. 6:31:27 AM You know what will make it much easier? 6:31:34 AM Jaedong and Flash have to continue winning in PL 6:31:47 AM Shine needs to keep winning in PL but lose / play questionably in MSL. 6:31:56 AM Kal needs to 2-0 MSL group. 6:32:00 AM Bisu needs to not qualify for MSL group. 6:32:10 AM Fantasy needs to make his group. 6:32:19 AM Hydra needs to keep winning in PL. 6:32:26 AM Sea... Sea's pretty much out of PR for next month. 6:32:38 AM Stork needs to pull more impressive wins in PL. ]343[ 6:32:54 AM heh 6:33:02 AM doubt this will happen 6:33:06 AM i think shine will just keep winning
The funny thing is, it's kinda true. Shine is just gonna win everything for a while. Also, Bisu is gonna 2-0. So basically, everything left in this PR really depends on that crucial last group of MSL. Edit: And the tiebreakers.
On December 24 2010 20:19 Holgerius wrote: So, what does this mean? O_o JD is not looking invincible by any means, losing ace games and dropping out of OSL. Really interesting stuff happening in the world of SC right now...
If by interesting you mean sad
On December 24 2010 20:20 Lightwip wrote: I feel sorry for you Flamewheel. And I suppose it really comes down to how Bisu and Shine do. It's gonna be Bisu, JD, Shine, or Stork #1 imo.
Jaedong can only have #1 if he wins very convincingly for the rest of the month. That game today was so sad. I wouldn't have mind it if it was a BO loss or if Hogil played well, but Jaedong didn't look like himself.
On December 24 2010 20:19 Holgerius wrote: So, what does this mean? O_o JD is not looking invincible by any means, losing ace games and dropping out of OSL. Really interesting stuff happening in the world of SC right now...
If by interesting you mean sad
You were all so happy when it was just Flash who got knocked out. Sucks when it happens to your guy, eh?
On December 24 2010 20:19 Holgerius wrote: So, what does this mean? O_o JD is not looking invincible by any means, losing ace games and dropping out of OSL. Really interesting stuff happening in the world of SC right now...
If by interesting you mean sad
You were all so happy when it was just Flash who got knocked out. Sucks when it happens to your guy, eh?
To be honest I'm used to it happening to my guy. He just isn't meant to win OSL. Although with JD either in or out(of SL's, don't interpret this the wrong way) is good, Flash out is kinda nice for once. We at least get to see some new faces, or else Fanta or Stork.
I say depends on tiebreakers and MSL, but yes we could. Haha, I'm actually kinda relieved that we're finally gonna have a power rank that isn't Flash-JD. Also, NO JAEDONG NO!
Am I the only one who thinks that BW finally got interesting again? For the past year I've only really been checking out the results, not bothering to watch most games since it was just going to end up in Flash/Jaedong winning anyway. Suddenly the giants look vulnerable and excitement has returned to the game. Almost anybody could end up winning the gold. The #1 PR spot is suddenly wide open, no longer being simply a question of will it be Flash there or Jaedong.
I just hope it lasts and isn't just a hiccup. If next season we end up with FvJ finals once again I will be very sad.
On December 24 2010 21:55 Goragoth wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that BW finally got interesting again? For the past year I've only really been checking out the results, not bothering to watch most games since it was just going to end up in Flash/Jaedong winning anyway. Suddenly the giants look vulnerable and excitement has returned to the game. Almost anybody could end up winning the gold. The #1 PR spot is suddenly wide open, no longer being simply a question of will it be Flash there or Jaedong.
I just hope it lasts and isn't just a hiccup. If next season we end up with FvJ finals once again I will be very sad.
I kind of see what you mean, but I want to tell you you've missed many many good games by doing that. Even in Flash and Jaedong's series (oh my, last MSL...). As for the PR, I hope Stork 2-0s the tiebreakers^^
On December 24 2010 21:55 Goragoth wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that BW finally got interesting again? For the past year I've only really been checking out the results, not bothering to watch most games since it was just going to end up in Flash/Jaedong winning anyway. Suddenly the giants look vulnerable and excitement has returned to the game. Almost anybody could end up winning the gold. The #1 PR spot is suddenly wide open, no longer being simply a question of will it be Flash there or Jaedong.
I just hope it lasts and isn't just a hiccup. If next season we end up with FvJ finals once again I will be very sad.
It would be so much better if it was some one stepping up and not only Jaedong and Flash stepping down.
On December 24 2010 21:55 Goragoth wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that BW finally got interesting again? For the past year I've only really been checking out the results, not bothering to watch most games since it was just going to end up in Flash/Jaedong winning anyway. Suddenly the giants look vulnerable and excitement has returned to the game. Almost anybody could end up winning the gold. The #1 PR spot is suddenly wide open, no longer being simply a question of will it be Flash there or Jaedong.
I just hope it lasts and isn't just a hiccup. If next season we end up with FvJ finals once again I will be very sad.
It would be so much better if it was some one stepping up and not only Jaedong and Flash stepping down.
The good thing is that we do have a lot of players stepping up. I would also agree on having the number one spot filled by the winner of shine/stork. The problem for flash and JD now is that they can not maintain a top 3 position as long as you can not play in the individuals (or your team does not get it together). JD is still in the MSL but how often will he play there in the next weeks? Stork and shine advancing from the tiebreakers would probably guaranty a top 3 spot.
On December 24 2010 21:55 Goragoth wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that BW finally got interesting again? For the past year I've only really been checking out the results, not bothering to watch most games since it was just going to end up in Flash/Jaedong winning anyway. Suddenly the giants look vulnerable and excitement has returned to the game. Almost anybody could end up winning the gold. The #1 PR spot is suddenly wide open, no longer being simply a question of will it be Flash there or Jaedong.
I just hope it lasts and isn't just a hiccup. If next season we end up with FvJ finals once again I will be very sad.
To be honest, I sort of agree. The Flash/JD rivalry hasn't been enough to hold my interest. I tend to stop following progaming for a little while whenever my life starts getting very busy. Over the years there were other rivalries I greatly preferred like NaDa/Gorush. But to be honest, having both drop out of OSL due to what feels like fluky results... I don't know if that's the answer. I'd like to see other S-class players solidify their game play. Effort before he decided to quit, Fantasy before he decided to start dropping games to every single opponent he faces... perhaps Stork and Bisu... except there's a problem here, a problem with that picture to. Go back and look at the tournament results since after Savior's dual finals. What do you see? I can only think of 3 finals that don't have Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, or Jangbi. GGplay vs Iris in Daum 07, Luxury vs... Kal? in 08. July vs Best in 08. If we remove Jangbi I don't know how much the list will change. Kal could become such a player but he's been around the block a lot too.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for, but variety is definitely a part of it. Edit: it would be awesome to see an older player who never made it to the finals before like Sea or Light win a title. It would be awesome to see a young talent enter the S-class for longer than just a season. Can Snow or Soulkey or Action give that to us?
On December 24 2010 21:55 Goragoth wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that BW finally got interesting again? For the past year I've only really been checking out the results, not bothering to watch most games since it was just going to end up in Flash/Jaedong winning anyway. Suddenly the giants look vulnerable and excitement has returned to the game. Almost anybody could end up winning the gold. The #1 PR spot is suddenly wide open, no longer being simply a question of will it be Flash there or Jaedong.
I just hope it lasts and isn't just a hiccup. If next season we end up with FvJ finals once again I will be very sad.
On December 24 2010 21:55 Goragoth wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that BW finally got interesting again? For the past year I've only really been checking out the results, not bothering to watch most games since it was just going to end up in Flash/Jaedong winning anyway. Suddenly the giants look vulnerable and excitement has returned to the game. Almost anybody could end up winning the gold. The #1 PR spot is suddenly wide open, no longer being simply a question of will it be Flash there or Jaedong.
I just hope it lasts and isn't just a hiccup. If next season we end up with FvJ finals once again I will be very sad.
To be honest, I sort of agree. The Flash/JD rivalry hasn't been enough to hold my interest. I tend to stop following progaming for a little while whenever my life starts getting very busy. Over the years there were other rivalries I greatly preferred like NaDa/Gorush. But to be honest, having both drop out of OSL due to what feels like fluky results... I don't know if that's the answer. I'd like to see other S-class players solidify their game play. Effort before he decided to quit, Fantasy before he decided to start dropping games to every single opponent he faces... perhaps Stork and Bisu... except there's a problem here, a problem with that picture to. Go back and look at the tournament results since after Savior's dual finals. What do you see? I can only think of 3 finals that don't have Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, or Jangbi. GGplay vs Iris in Daum 07, Luxury vs... Kal? in 08. July vs Best in 08. If we remove Jangbi I don't know how much the list will change. Kal could become such a player but he's been around the block a lot too.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for, but variety is definitely a part of it. Edit: it would be awesome to see an older player who never made it to the finals before like Sea or Light win a title. It would be awesome to see a young talent enter the S-class for longer than just a season. Can Snow or Soulkey or Action give that to us?
It was Luxury vs Jangbi. You missed Calm vs Kwanro in Summer MSL of 09.
At any rate this PR is gonna be tough now that Flash and JD are no longer dual leagues. It's looking like #1 is probably gonna be Shine, Stork, Kal or Fantasy (assuming he plays well again for the rest of the month. Bisu dropped a league so it would be strange to have him at #1 if JD isn't #1 cause he dropped the OSL. Maybe if Bisu plays fucking amazing in all his games for the rest of the month and all of the people I listed above play poorly he could get #1.
On December 24 2010 21:55 Goragoth wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that BW finally got interesting again? For the past year I've only really been checking out the results, not bothering to watch most games since it was just going to end up in Flash/Jaedong winning anyway. Suddenly the giants look vulnerable and excitement has returned to the game. Almost anybody could end up winning the gold. The #1 PR spot is suddenly wide open, no longer being simply a question of will it be Flash there or Jaedong.
I just hope it lasts and isn't just a hiccup. If next season we end up with FvJ finals once again I will be very sad.
To be honest, I sort of agree. The Flash/JD rivalry hasn't been enough to hold my interest. I tend to stop following progaming for a little while whenever my life starts getting very busy. Over the years there were other rivalries I greatly preferred like NaDa/Gorush. But to be honest, having both drop out of OSL due to what feels like fluky results... I don't know if that's the answer. I'd like to see other S-class players solidify their game play. Effort before he decided to quit, Fantasy before he decided to start dropping games to every single opponent he faces... perhaps Stork and Bisu... except there's a problem here, a problem with that picture to. Go back and look at the tournament results since after Savior's dual finals. What do you see? I can only think of 3 finals that don't have Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, or Jangbi. GGplay vs Iris in Daum 07, Luxury vs... Kal? in 08. July vs Best in 08. If we remove Jangbi I don't know how much the list will change. Kal could become such a player but he's been around the block a lot too.
I'm not sure exactly what I'm looking for, but variety is definitely a part of it. Edit: it would be awesome to see an older player who never made it to the finals before like Sea or Light win a title. It would be awesome to see a young talent enter the S-class for longer than just a season. Can Snow or Soulkey or Action give that to us?
It was Luxury vs Jangbi. You missed Calm vs Kwanro in Summer MSL of 09.
At any rate this PR is gonna be tough now that FLash and JD are no longer dual leagues. It's looking like #1 is probably gonna be Shine, Stork, Kal or Fantasy (assuming he plays well again for the rest of the month. Bisu dropped a league so it would be strange to have him at #1 if JD isn't #1 cause he dropped the OSL. Maybe if Bisu plays fucking amazing in all his games for the rest of the month and all of the people I listed above play poorly he could get #1.
Good catch, although it only reiterates the point: since Savior fell, exactly 3 major finals have featured someone other than Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork or Jangbi, and that includes GOM. And we're fast approaching four years since Savior fell...
Bisu has losing records against both Shine (3-5) and Kal (4-6) who are in his MSL group and lost BO3's to them both recentlythis season. Kal is guaranteed to advance at least in OSL and Shine is in a tie-breaker with 2 of 3 advancing. Bisu needs to thoroughly demolish them in order to prove that he is worthy of a #1 ranking.
Interestingly, Calm is the only player currently locked in for both leagues. Stork and Shine are in a tie-breaker together, Kal and Fantasy still need to advance (from hard groups) in MSL. Tonight's MSL matches will be big.
Hmm, a few things that I noticed over the past few weeks that are relevant. Since for the most part OSL is ready to proceed, I think it's a good time to note these. 1. Flash probably lost focus after he felt like he became invincible. Remember when he said "I have achieved enlightenment" and proceeded to lose to Effort then go on the ace match streak? Well, this is kinda the same, except Ssak, Classic, Hyuk and even Kal are not as good as Effort was, yet Flash didn't beat any of them. He only beat Paralyze, a rookie that hasn't been playing too good of games recently. Nevertheless, I expect him to bounce back and do better within a span of 2-3 months. Losing both leagues is bad, but his problem is not impossible to correct. After all, he really hasn't been doing bad in PL at all. He just has an attitude that doesn't suit him.
2. Jaedong... ugh, I don't know what happened to him. He's known better than anyone else for an unbreakable consistency, but those finals against Flash really seem like they broke him. He lost his decision-making somewhere along the way. I've been saying that something seems wrong with JD for a while, but I've been willing to accept that a few losses could've been flukes, but not anymore. He lost to Hiya and Hogil, along with every good player he's played this time around(Zero, Stork, Lightx2, Hydra maybe?). Something went wrong after that MSL, and we saw it in the cheese of the OSL(also in the games against Stork, though that could've just been a bad day), the awful play in game 3 of the WCG Grand finals, and in his games ever since. In the MSL, he was losing games to Light and Sea when the metagame favored terran. Yet at the time he still had his angryface on and proceeded to defeat both players regardless. In the games against Stork, he did no such thing, and against Flash and in all his later games he no longer looked like JD the killer. I'm no longer willing to dismiss this as a fluke and I'm going to say that something is wrong with JD. He's playing too aggressively and losing games that he shouldn't. I say the problem here is much worse than Flash's. But if Jaedong still has any of his ability to recover left in him, he may be back to full form faster than I expect him to. Also, he's very close to dropping out of the 2300 club.
3. Stork NEEDS better PvZ judgment. He's S-class in all 3 matchups like every TBLS, but ugh, his PvZ hasn't been good recently. Other than that horrible abomination of a game that was Stork vs Violet, Stork hasn't really played poorly, except in PvZ. Against an awful-playing Jaedong, he lost again and again to having too few cannons. Against Shine, he didn't have anything, so Shine just made enough stuff to kill him. Against Roro, he had dohsairs and just lost a shuttle with 2 reavers in the stupidest of ways.
4. Bisu needs to stop 3 gating. After it failed EVERY SINGLE TIME he did it, I thought he would get that it's not a good strategy. Also, by now losing to Shine is comparable to Jaedong losing to Fantasy. Not that bad compared to how Jaedong and Flash went out. He just wasn't seeded into the Ro16. But he really needs to show something impressive soon, because I know he's capable of it and he needs to back his PL record with SL results. I think that he's capable of being the best player right now if he just works out his little flaws. Especially since Stork is not only a weaker player but also one with equally questionable decision-making some of the time and at least for the time being, JD and Flash are a bit off their game. He just needs to stop losing to Kal and Shine.
5. OSL zergs. Shine figured something out that no other zerg did, but Modesty and Hydra aren't all that good IMO. They've got a decent record, yet when they lose, there's some very evident flaws in their play. Shine is really good at finding and exploiting weaknesses though, and it really seems like the only way to get around that is to not really give him much of an opening. I think that that game in PL against Bisu really demonstrates the full extent of Shine's abilities, and while Bisu is the best PvZ of all time and it wasn't a 1-sided game, it shows that if you play correctly, Shine is very much beatable. Hyuk, I'm not sure about considering his PL results, but he 3-0d out of the hardest group in the OSL and advances into the Ro8. I hope to see great things from him. Clam is quite the cheesy mollusk, yet he seems to be recovering. Hogil is actually not that bad in PL, I expect that he'll do better after taking a game off JD.
6. Fantasy, stop slumping. You really made it hard for SKT with your poor judgment. You are almost as good as Flash, perhaps even just as good, but sometimes you make the stupidest of decisions. Ugh.
On December 25 2010 05:56 Lightwip wrote: Against an awful-playing Jaedong, he lost again and again to having too few cannons.
Stork knew he had to cut corners to have a chance against Jaedong in a boX and Jaedong capitalized on it. Jaedong was not that awefull when he got in to two finals the same season, right?
1. This is similar to other giants. Anyone else remember when Oov placed Clon in his OSL group so he could get an easy win only to get demolished? And Savior put all of OGN Sparkyz in his group in order to do a team all-kill and while he gave Terato one of the biggest rapes in SC history, he lost to Yarnc and only made it out 2-1 instead of the 2-0 you'd expect after telling off an entire team.
2. JD isn't looking invincible right now, but he's hardly looking as weak as you are indicating. He's defeated some tough competition as well. If you look at his results page, in ZvP the only players to have beaten him on the entire first page are Stork (4 times), Kal (once) and Bisu (once). He's 10-3 in ZvZ since the start of the new season. And in ZvT, the only player other than Flash or Light to take a game from him in his last 30 is Hiya, his teammate. Cut some slack here. Other than a single critical loss in last night's game he's still looking like a choice candidate for #1 on the PR.
3. PvZ has historically been Stork's weakness. Back in the day he was a chew toy for S-class Zergs. Just look at how he faired against Savior and against Chojja. Yet ironically, if I had to pick any Protoss player to face Jaedong it would be Stork. Not Bisu, not Kal, just Stork. If I'm going to pick on Stork for a weakness, I'm a little unconvinced by his PvP these days. He's scored some wins there recently, but if you look at his past 20, I have him at 8-12. His PvZ is actually a little better, but it's also a bit inconsistent. Stork has been riding his recently-returned-to-god-mode PvT to get him results.
5. (no comment on 4) Shine is good, but yeah, as much as I like him, I hesitate to call him S-class. But he's good. Calm is advancing, again, but over the past few months he kept trading seats with his evil twin Clam so... and Modesty, I'm hesitant on his ZvT and ZvP, but he has a solid reputation as a ZvZ sniper, so we'll see how he does. Hydra is not advancing, but if he were, well he's the #4 Zerg by ELO, so...
6. Fantasy is not as good as Flash. I like Fantasy better than Flash, but he's not as good. In my opinion, Fantasy is a little too dependent on Coach Oov and hasn't done enough to raise his own style. Fooling around with timing builds helped him create the Valkyrie strategy that carried him to nearly winning an OSL, but his bionic TvZ was extremely lacking until recently. It wasn't until around May of this year that he started showing a convincing TvZ, and it's no coincidence that this corresponded with his return to form. Fantasy needs to find his own game of Starcraft. And then maybe he will finally find gold.
On December 25 2010 09:30 Mortality wrote:2. JD isn't looking invincible right now, but he's hardly looking as weak as you are indicating. He's defeated some tough competition as well. If you look at his results page, in ZvP the only players to have beaten him on the entire first page are Stork (4 times), Kal (once) and Bisu (once). He's 10-3 in ZvZ since the start of the new season. And in ZvT, the only player other than Flash or Light to take a game from him in his last 30 is Hiya, his teammate. Cut some slack here. Other than a single critical loss in last night's game he's still looking like a choice candidate for #1 on the PR.
That's just it though, all of the people he lost to are good players. His winrate against players I'd give a good chance against him is awful since the last while. Losing to Hogil does indicate that something is wrong, along with the way he played against Light and how he pretty much gave GoRush a free win(although he said no) with a random 5 ling loss.
On December 25 2010 09:30 Mortality wrote:6. Fantasy is not as good as Flash. I like Fantasy better than Flash, but he's not as good. In my opinion, Fantasy is a little too dependent on Coach Oov and hasn't done enough to raise his own style. Fooling around with timing builds helped him create the Valkyrie strategy that carried him to nearly winning an OSL, but his bionic TvZ was extremely lacking until recently. It wasn't until around May of this year that he started showing a convincing TvZ, and it's no coincidence that this corresponded with his return to form. Fantasy needs to find his own game of Starcraft. And then maybe he will finally find gold.
Actually, I'll agree with this one. Nevertheless, Fantasy is a really good ace, he usually beats whoever he's sent out against. Not so much in regular games/SL though.
On December 25 2010 05:56 Lightwip wrote: 3. Stork NEEDS better PvZ judgment. He's S-class in all 3 matchups like every TBLS, but ugh, his PvZ hasn't been good recently. Other than that horrible abomination of a game that was Stork vs Violet, Stork hasn't really played poorly, except in PvZ. Against an awful-playing Jaedong, he lost again and again to having too few cannons. Against Shine, he didn't have anything, so Shine just made enough stuff to kill him. Against Roro, he had dohsairs and just lost a shuttle with 2 reavers in the stupidest of ways. .
Stork had the busiest schedule that day, he had THREE days FULL of live televised game to play. He played 5 games in the span of 3 days and won 3/5 which I would consider REALLY consistent. He had like 3 hours to practice vs Shine while Shine probably practiced his ass off against Stork making that sick timing push. If Stork practices and prepare REALLY hard for that tiebreaker, chances that he'll make it out alive.
On December 25 2010 05:56 Lightwip wrote: 3. Stork NEEDS better PvZ judgment. He's S-class in all 3 matchups like every TBLS, but ugh, his PvZ hasn't been good recently. Other than that horrible abomination of a game that was Stork vs Violet, Stork hasn't really played poorly, except in PvZ. Against an awful-playing Jaedong, he lost again and again to having too few cannons. Against Shine, he didn't have anything, so Shine just made enough stuff to kill him. Against Roro, he had dohsairs and just lost a shuttle with 2 reavers in the stupidest of ways. .
Stork had the busiest schedule that day, he had THREE days FULL of live televised game to play. He played 5 games in the span of 3 days and won 3/5 which I would consider REALLY consistent. He had like 3 hours to practice vs Shine while Shine probably practiced his ass off against Stork making that sick timing push. If Stork practices and prepare REALLY hard for that tiebreaker, chances that he'll make it out alive.
He did say that he basically just used carriers on Light because he was too busy to practice, didn't he? After watching that game against Shine, I can say that Stork played kinda sloppy at times yet not awful. Maybe a few more cannons would've been a good idea since that build was pretty close to 5 hatch hydra->lurk. Bit heavy on sairs for 5 hatch hydra too. But the dohsairs vs Roro and the cannons against Jaedong isn't very good play from Stork.
On December 25 2010 09:30 Mortality wrote:2. JD isn't looking invincible right now, but he's hardly looking as weak as you are indicating. He's defeated some tough competition as well. If you look at his results page, in ZvP the only players to have beaten him on the entire first page are Stork (4 times), Kal (once) and Bisu (once). He's 10-3 in ZvZ since the start of the new season. And in ZvT, the only player other than Flash or Light to take a game from him in his last 30 is Hiya, his teammate. Cut some slack here. Other than a single critical loss in last night's game he's still looking like a choice candidate for #1 on the PR.
That's just it though, all of the people he lost to are good players. His winrate against players I'd give a good chance against him is awful since the last while. Losing to Hogil does indicate that something is wrong, along with the way he played against Light and how he pretty much gave GoRush a free win(although he said no) with a random 5 ling loss.
Going back over the data I mentioned... I'll do ZvP first just to establish that there is nothing wrong with it. Jaedong has never lost a series vs Kal and is 7-1 vs Kal in 2010, so clearly Kal doesn't count towards this. He's 7-7 vs Bisu with only one game played in 2010 (Bisu's win that had everyone talking). In both career series encounters he won against Bisu. His "weakness" is Stork whom he is 10-11 against, but he has only lost one series encounter out of 5 and it was a bo3 in WCG. He's 3-4 against Stork in 2010. Jaedong is 7-1 in ZvP this season, his only loss being to Stork. I don't think there is any problem there and I'm convinced he is the favorite against any Protoss.
Now ZvT... he's 5-6 against Light this year, but again, he won both series encounters. Granted, I felt like Light pushed him to the limit and was arguably the stronger player in their MSL encounter, but still. Granted also, Light has beaten him twice since their MSL fight. But Light has the 5th highest TvZ ELO in history. He's been a TvZ animal this year, arguably stronger than Flash (or maybe a little less strong but a little more consistent). And then there's our bonjwa Flash who is 12-8 over Jaedong in 2010. In a bo5 right now I'd say JD vs Light could go either way, which is exactly what I felt 4 months ago. And Flash... he is out of both leagues so I'm not sure what to say there. Really, I think you're over thinking his ZvT results since he's only played 5 games since Flash, two vs Light and one vs a teammate. Battles between teammates are notorious for fluky results and always have been.
Finally ZvZ, as I said, he is 10-3 this season. Okay, his 3 losses were fairly recent, but let's take a look more deeply at his opponents. Losses to Zero (#9 ZvZ ELO), Hydra (#10), and Hogil (waaaaay down the list). Wins over Hydra, Modesty (#3), Roro (#8), Soulkey (#3), and Calm (#5). ZvZ isn't really a coinflip these days as so many people say, but it's still the most unpredictable match-up, so I think Jaedong is doing quite well and isn't losing to players because they are better. He shouldn't have lost to Hogil and he played like trash and I don't know why, but in the end it's just one game, not a trend.
The bottom line, there are only two players in the world I'd potentially pick over Jaedong in a bo5 with any sort of confidence and they are both players I would have picked 4 months ago.
I will grant you that JD does not look invincible right now, but I already said that. I'd still pick him as a favorite over Bisu or Stork but I'd be a liiiiiiittle more worried than I might have before, and if Fantasy is on a good day he definitely could pull a win and I'm still not quite sure about Shine (who, by the way, is a ZvZ monster with 2199 ZvZ ELO making him #2 while #3 is Soulkey at 2115), but 4 months ago I was saying that Flash, Light and Effort could all pull bo5 wins over JD, so...
I don't think there has been a major change in where Jaedong stands. Right this instant there is nobody else I'd choose as #1 over him (dropping Flash due to his failures). Potentially Shine, Fantasy or Stork could do it by the end of the month if I am impressed enough. I suppose maybe Bisu has a chance too, but he seems to be dropping bo3's a lot lately (Shine in OSL this season, Kal in MBC Survivor this season, Kal in WCG...).
To be honest, a lot of those results are outdated. I really am basing what I'm saying on the results post-Bigfile finals, since it wouldn't make sense to say JD was weak before those as he just ELO peaked at the time. Starting with the series against Stork, he has a 65.7% winrate, 73.1% if you start after OSL finals. That definitely doesn't look too bad, but most of his wins are against easy opponents. His ZvP, I say it's as good as it needs to be(10-3, 77% since MSL). I'm willing to just say that JD had a REALLY bad day against Stork. He even said the same thing. He lost to Stork again, but he convincingly destroyed his other opponents. No real problem right now, the only protoss that could give him trouble are TaekBang. ZvZ, honestly I don't know(10-3 again). A similar record to his ZvP, but some more questionable play and a few really questionable losses+ Gorush game. But the thing is, all the ZvZ's he's lost actually mattered. vs Zero and Hydra were aces, and vs Hogil was facing elimination. worth taking note of. Still beats weaker zergs pretty easily though, except when he threw away an advantage vs Hogil. ZvT is kinda off though, (3-6, 33%). Granted, OSL finals against Flash and 2 games against Light, but I think the best ZvT could've won more than 1 of 6 games against these two. It didn't really look like he stood much of a chance against them at all. Skyhigh and Piano are, quite obviously, easy pickings, so those 2 wins don't make up for all the losses. It's fair to say that Jaedong is a drum vT right now. His ELO has certainly taken a toll from all his losses, if that needs to be mentioned. His play is more often questionable nowadays as well(only thing I remember from last season was all-in muta vs Sea). If I had to choose now, JD is still #1. But a lot of top players could easily take it from him.
So does Kal lose consideration for #1 for losing to fbh? Not that firebathero isn't obviously the best Terran ever despite his record (/fanboy), but there is this TvP thing...
I don't think he really should've been considered much in the first place, because I'm quite sure there's numerous players better than him. He just isn't consistent enough.
On December 25 2010 16:08 EGWF1212 wrote: 1.Stork 2.Jaedong 3.Shine 4.Flash 5.Fantasy 6.Roro 7.Hydra 8.Snow 9.Leta 10.Kal
CNBC Light Zero
There's a lot of things wrong with this, but I for some reason the one that bothers me the most is Stork over Shine. I don't see how you could argue that right now.
I'm dropping the Jaedong discussion for now because I feel like we need to see more results against Terrans not named Flash or Light before these results are meaningful. With ZvZ I'm not concerned so much by when he loses it as whether he is consistent (which he still is) because of the volatile nature of the MU. We both agree that right now he's #1 (in light of Flash's failure -- lol) and that other players need to step up to prove they are more worthy of the crown.
On December 25 2010 15:43 Lightwip wrote: I don't think he really should've been considered much in the first place, because I'm quite sure there's numerous players better than him. He just isn't consistent enough.
I wouldn't say "numerous" but I agree with the sentiment here. #7 by ELO. His 17-10 17-11 record this season looks pretty solid, but then you realize that his win rate has been declining. 5-5 in his past 10 (2 wins in past 6 games), 6-6 6-7 in the month of December. Admittedly he has pulled some critical wins when it counted (ace matches, OSL), and admittedly he's played a lot of tough or underrated opponents, but even if I try to look past a loss to a Bisu or a Zero or a Horang2 (#1 PvP ELO), I still see a player whose best result is Silver. Kal needs to simultaneously rape his MSL group and hope for bad results for everybody else if he wants #1.
On December 25 2010 16:08 EGWF1212 wrote: 1.Stork 2.Jaedong 3.Shine 4.Flash 5.Fantasy 6.Roro 7.Hydra 8.Snow 9.Leta 10.Kal
CNBC Light Zero
There's a lot of things wrong with this, but I for some reason the one that bothers me the most is Stork over Shine. I don't see how you could argue that right now.
I changed the rankings and put Snow in the top 10 and Bisu on CNBC.
Perhaps as a shoutout for oldschool value, but that's not really enough results for legitimately getting on CBNC. Sashin deserves a shoutout too honestly. There should be a section for shoutouts in PR.
Next PR will definitively be tricky with all the best players failing on some level. Very few outstanding performances overall this month. Shine probably looked the best but even though he has been much improved I wouldn't place him at #1 before he proves his worth by actually winning a title.
On December 25 2010 15:43 Lightwip wrote: I don't think he really should've been considered much in the first place, because I'm quite sure there's numerous players better than him. He just isn't consistent enough.
Dude, if there's one thing Kal is, it's consistent. He's been like oldschool Bisu this year: league threat, slightly above-average Proleaguer. Especially, right now, compared to... well, just about everybody except Stork and Shine, he's consistent. You definitely have to consider him in the first place discussion, whether or not you give it to him (and I'm leaning more and more to a Shine #1).
On December 25 2010 15:43 Lightwip wrote: I don't think he really should've been considered much in the first place, because I'm quite sure there's numerous players better than him. He just isn't consistent enough.
Dude, if there's one thing Kal is, it's consistent. He's been like oldschool Bisu this year: league threat, slightly above-average Proleaguer. Especially, right now, compared to... well, just about everybody except Stork and Shine, he's consistent. You definitely have to consider him in the first place discussion, whether or not you give it to him (and I'm leaning more and more to a Shine #1).
Even though he is 6-7 in December? Maybe if everyone else fucks up and he excels... but right now there is no reason to put him over Jaedong, who has a better record this month, this season, and last season, and is ahead in ELO by almost 100 points.
Fantasy, Fantasy, Fantasy... What is wrong with you? I think it's time for oov to wean Fantasy so he can find his own way in the starcraft world. Because this is just getting ridiculous.
On December 25 2010 15:43 Lightwip wrote: I don't think he really should've been considered much in the first place, because I'm quite sure there's numerous players better than him. He just isn't consistent enough.
Dude, if there's one thing Kal is, it's consistent. He's been like oldschool Bisu this year: league threat, slightly above-average Proleaguer. Especially, right now, compared to... well, just about everybody except Stork and Shine, he's consistent. You definitely have to consider him in the first place discussion, whether or not you give it to him (and I'm leaning more and more to a Shine #1).
Even though he is 6-7 in December? Maybe if everyone else fucks up and he excels... but right now there is no reason to put him over Jaedong, who has a better record this month, this season, and last season, and is ahead in ELO by almost 100 points.
You know what, you're right. Kal's record in PL is pretty bad. I still think he has to get some respect for his OSL performance, but whether I consider him a genuine #1 candidate will depend on his MSL group.
The problem is, with Flash and Jaedong crashing out of the OSL, and Flash out of the MSL as well, and Kal as the current #3, and the possiblity/probability that Kal advances in the MSL, I still think he has to be considered - at this point - as a #1 candidate.
Kal has 7 losses in December. Stork has 8 losses all season (2 in December). Jaedong has 7 losses all season (4 in December). Bisu has 6 losses all season (2 in December). And Shine has 3 losses all season (1 in December). Kal's ELO is 2209, 110 points below Jaedong. And going back further, his results from last season were behind Stork and Jaedong. Granted, he is at least winning when it counts the most, which isn't something Flash or Jaedong can say.
Of course things could change. He could stomp his MSL group (featuring Shine and Bisu). Jaedong could drop more ace matches. Shine could fall out of both leagues, or maybe squeak into OSL and get decimated in MSL, and maybe Stork could get 2-0'd in the tie-breaker with Shine (1-1) and Mind (2-0) advancing. Bisu could flop and then once again be out of both leagues early on in the season.
But to me, Kal getting ranked #1 is overly dependent on things going poorly for other contenders.
I thought it would be best to wait till the end of the first week of January. But to get it back to being monthly probably New Year's Day if I'm not dead.
On December 26 2010 08:38 flamewheel wrote: I thought it would be best to wait till the end of the first week of January. But to get it back to being monthly probably New Year's Day if I'm not dead.
On December 26 2010 10:22 Mortality wrote: To be honest I'd like to see the OSL tiebreakers first as well, but I have no idea when those will happen so... -.-
On December 26 2010 10:22 Mortality wrote: To be honest I'd like to see the OSL tiebreakers first as well, but I have no idea when those will happen so... -.-
I believe they are tonight.
Sunday, December 26th 21:00 KST. Just under 10 hours from now.
Wow, Bisu's really tearing PL up. I think he needs to be at least #2 if he wins his MSL group 2-0. Tiebreakers coming up, really gonna determine a lot of stuff as far as better players go.
Bisu has indeed been doing well but his MSL group once again contains Shine, which doesn't bode well for him at all. If he gets knocked out (certainly possible with Kal and Shine in the group) he will be out of both OSL and MSL, which would hurt his rank a lot.
On December 26 2010 22:29 flamewheel wrote: Headache.
On the contrary, as much as I kind of want to see Stork #2 just for the hell of it, he seems safely in the lead for #1. Ro8 OSL, Ro16 MSL. 5-0 in the PL. Dude is having a perfect month... fail against Roro in the MSL notwithstanding.
On December 26 2010 22:29 flamewheel wrote: Headache.
On the contrary, as much as I kind of want to see Stork #2 just for the hell of it, he seems safely in the lead for #1. Ro8 OSL, Ro16 MSL. 5-0 in the PL. Dude is having a perfect month... fail against Roro in the MSL notwithstanding.
Well it's not that. In the same sense, had Shine gone 2-0 we could have pretty much said the same thing for him. The #1 spot is easiest of all to ascertain since you can pretty much draw from any benchmark or guideline you want, as long as consistency is maintained...
I was more referring to the SPL games played last night.
Shine losing and Fantasy losing were big results... Shine's record took a serious blow and Fantasy continues to fall...
Guys who are doing well in Starleague are for the most part not doing well in proleague or, like Calm, are a bit untrustworthy (never know when Clam will pull that switcheroo).
On December 26 2010 17:55 Lightwip wrote: Wow, Bisu's really tearing PL up. I think he needs to be at least #2 if he wins his MSL group 2-0. Tiebreakers coming up, really gonna determine a lot of stuff as far as better players go.
I wouldn't even put Bisu in the top 5 unless he dominates his group. His proleague record comes from bashing a lot of mediocre players/slumping players so it really isn't all that impressive. And watching his games, he seems very sloppy, except in a few PvZ's that hes played.
Though Jaedong and Flash still command respect, they did fail hard this month. Stork's results, and the fact he took care of Shine today, makes him appear very strong as he is likely to move in semifinal of the osl now (his pvz is quite decent lately, his pvt still the best, i'd just be scared of a Stork vs Kal). So even if it feels a bit fast to put him #1, if you put aside Flash and Jaedong legacy, i think he's the more deserving.
On December 26 2010 17:55 Lightwip wrote: Wow, Bisu's really tearing PL up. I think he needs to be at least #2 if he wins his MSL group 2-0. Tiebreakers coming up, really gonna determine a lot of stuff as far as better players go.
I wouldn't even put Bisu in the top 5 unless he dominates his group. His proleague record comes from bashing a lot of mediocre players/slumping players so it really isn't all that impressive. And watching his games, he seems very sloppy, except in a few PvZ's that hes played.
...Is Shine any different? He was put at #4 for pretty much beating mediocre players, along with Bisu. Sea is horrible at vZ this time around, so he really doesn't count. Furthermore, that's simply not true. He's played and beaten some tough opponents. At this point, if Bisu 2-0s his group, I think he is #2, because 1 league+PL God>0 leagues+PL god(Flash) or 1 League+PL God> 1 League+ Less of a PL God(Jaedong). Stork pretty much is #1 right now and there's not much that can change that unless he plays bad for the rest of the month. But where does Shine fit in all of this? If Bisu goes 2-0 and Shine(or Kal) 2-1, then I think it's like this: 1. Stork 2. Bisu 3. Jaedong 4. Flash 5. 2-1 of Group H 6. Eliminated from Group H Oh and if Really wins, things may be even more difficult.
On an unrelated note, a new group has formed in ELO. On top is the LeeSsang, who are far removed from those below, and then there's TaekBang, again far removed from the ones below(about 50 ELO). Things are quickly becoming as they should be.
On December 26 2010 17:55 Lightwip wrote: Wow, Bisu's really tearing PL up. I think he needs to be at least #2 if he wins his MSL group 2-0. Tiebreakers coming up, really gonna determine a lot of stuff as far as better players go.
I wouldn't even put Bisu in the top 5 unless he dominates his group. His proleague record comes from bashing a lot of mediocre players/slumping players so it really isn't all that impressive. And watching his games, he seems very sloppy, except in a few PvZ's that hes played.
Since free's my favorite Protoss, and Stork and Jangbi are my team Protoss, I feel bad defending Bisu, but I really think you're selling him way short.
I'm not calling him #1 - since this month he's been outperformed by Stork, he simply can't reasonably be #1 when he's not even the #1 Protoss - and #2 is probably Jaedong (1 and 2 is Stork/Jaedong at this point, I'd say), but #3 would make sense if he gets through the MSL group. But you can't just dismiss his wins as "mediocre players/slumping players". Let's review:
Sea - okay, slump. But 1) 2-2 against Bisu before this game and 2) the game was on a map that was 2-7 in PvT. Yeah, five wins from Flash and fantasy. But BByong over Jangbi, even bad Jangbi? Ruby over Pure? This map has problems. great - KHAN's best Zerg. ZvP is probably his best MU. Guy had put together two wins against free and Movie. Almost beat Bisu in R1. Iris - probably mediocre now. But he hasn't always been; his TvP is 56% overall, and he's 6-7 against Bisu coming into the game. Action - loss. To me, this is the biggest strike against him, because I don't think Action is very good. - and Bisu got completely outplayed. On the other hand, it is Action's best MU. On the other other hand, this may have come in the last PR period and so not count (as much) towards this coming one.
It's not like Bisu's been playing Flash, fantasy, Really, Horang2, etc. etc. and winning against top vP players, I admit; but it's not like he's been playing Juni, Saint, Dear, or whoever else either.
On December 27 2010 03:13 Lightwip wrote: ...I think he is #2, because 1 league+PL God>0 leagues+PL god(Flash) or 1 League+PL God> 1 League+ Less of a PL God(Jaedong)...
I'm all set to defend Bisu as having a fantastic time right now, but excuse me? Bisu > Jaedong in PL how? JD's played more games, against tougher opponents. Yeah, on pure winning percentage Bisu's done better, and Jaedong's ace dominance certainly isn't what it has been. On the other hand Bisu has some competent teammates, while OZ's #2 is... Anytime. Just-back-from-ACE Anytime. (Though I love Sashin, don't get me wrong, he's still not a #2 on a reasonable team. Not #2 the way we all thought HiyA would be #2 like usual.)
On the individual league front losing to HoGiL is way worse than losing to Shine. But when Bisu hasn't yet made it into the next stage of the MSL I think it's premature to be calling him #2. Of course, if he loses in the MSL he's down to like #7, because it's really not that fantastic, but if he wins the group (especially 2-0), his PL opponents are hardly going to drag him down.
I think he's referring to Bisu's 16-2 PL record, compared with JD's 17-5 PL record. My main criticism of Bisu is not his PL record but that he's played two BO3's this season and not done very well... (Shine and Kal whomped him).
If Bisu obliterates his group I'd consider the possibility of a #2 spot. Otherwise it's looking like 1. Stork, 2. JD.
I also think that the possibility of putting Calm and Kal (if he advances from group H) over Flash should be considered, even though I think Flash is stronger. As I said, I'm inclined to feel that a player qualified for both leagues should be over a player qualified for neither.
On December 27 2010 03:13 Lightwip wrote: ...I think he is #2, because 1 league+PL God>0 leagues+PL god(Flash) or 1 League+PL God> 1 League+ Less of a PL God(Jaedong)...
I'm all set to defend Bisu as having a fantastic time right now, but excuse me? Bisu > Jaedong in PL how? JD's played more games, against tougher opponents. Yeah, on pure winning percentage Bisu's done better, and Jaedong's ace dominance certainly isn't what it has been. On the other hand Bisu has some competent teammates, while OZ's #2 is... Anytime. Just-back-from-ACE Anytime. (Though I love Sashin, don't get me wrong, he's still not a #2 on a reasonable team. Not #2 the way we all thought HiyA would be #2 like usual.)
On the individual league front losing to HoGiL is way worse than losing to Shine. But when Bisu hasn't yet made it into the next stage of the MSL I think it's premature to be calling him #2. Of course, if he loses in the MSL he's down to like #7, because it's really not that fantastic, but if he wins the group (especially 2-0), his PL opponents are hardly going to drag him down.
Bisu>JD in PL simply because he's had more success. What strong opponents has Jaedong played? Lightx2 and Stork, along with a slew of people he should usually beat. Yet he lost in every game to Stork and Light, along with losing a few key ace matches, his only wins against Modesty and Piano, not too inspiring of opponents. Frankly, he just hasn't done well in important matches or games against strong opponents. 17-5 is by no means a bad record, but it's not better than 16-2. Bisu's strong opponents? Kal, Sea, Zero, and arguably Really. He's only lost 2 games so far, 1 was a failed 3 gate(I do fault him a lot for this, don't get me wrong), and a game against Action where Action played a lot better than he usually does. And he's beaten each of these difficult opponents, although he went 1-1 against Kal. Honestly, I don't see how you can say Jaedong is doing better in PL right now. Of course, all this hinges on 2-0 in MSL. If he drops out, he's closer to #5, and if he goes 2-1, he probably belongs at #3 because while JD went out against weaker opponents in OSL and won 2-0 in an easy group(for him), he should probably get the benefit of the doubt for a long streak of dominance.
On December 27 2010 04:34 Mortality wrote: I think he's referring to Bisu's 16-2 PL record, compared with JD's 17-5 PL record. My main criticism of Bisu is not his PL record but that he's played two BO3's this season and not done very well... (Shine and Kal whomped him).
If Bisu obliterates his group I'd consider the possibility of a #2 spot. Otherwise it's looking like 1. Stork, 2. JD.
I also think that the possibility of putting Calm and Kal (if he advances from group H) over Flash should be considered, even though I think Flash is stronger. As I said, I'm inclined to feel that a player qualified for both leagues should be over a player qualified for neither.
Well I wouldn't hold the bo3 against Kal too much as he demolished his survivor group to get into MSL and i dont know how seriously that wildcard tourney was taken. The Shine bo3 wasn't good by any means but I dont think its any worse than the group 1-2 with losses to Hiya and Hogil.
As for proleague Jaedong beat Roo and Jangbi and lost to Light. I'll be interested to see how Bisu and Jaedong do in the head to head proleague match of T1 vs Oz coming up. A head to head battle would be great, but who knows if it will happen.
I pretty much agree with what you say, Bisu must at least advance from his group to have any shot at number 2. If he does flame out of his second league he'll probably end up barely making the rank, so it all comes down to his MSL group.
I'd argue that 16-2 and 17-5 are fairly equivalent records just on the surface, especially without looking at opponents. So I decided to look at opponents. (I noted players who are currently ELO top ten, and opponents currently on the PR. I have no way to figure out ELO-at-time-of-game for the older games.)
Shared opponents: RorO: Jaedong W, Bisu W Soulkey: Jaedong W, Bisu W ZerO: Jaedong L, Bisu W
So... okay, fine. Advantage Bisu on Proleague records. (Although in R2 Jaedong's record is better than Bisu's, 8-2 to 6-2.) Jaedong has no "good wins": his best are Stats, RorO, and PianO. On the other hand he has no bad losses; the worst is ZerO. Bisu has a couple "good wins": Sea, great, Shine. On the other hand he did take a poor loss to Action.
All that said, I don't consider Bisu a #2 candidate until he makes it out of the MSL group - because against Shine, Kal, and Really I'm expecting him to not make it, and even though it's a tough group, at some point those results matter.
On December 27 2010 11:07 Froadac wrote: I do agree with that. Powerranking was well done as alway s. We need a SC2 powerrank soon
I think for that you could just take the Ro16 participants and put them in order by how far they got+their record. Because there's really nothing to measure SC2 players on.
So awesome to see stork as the undisputed number 1 again. Hopefully it lasts longer this time (I think last time it was just one month) His chances for the OSL are pretty good I must say. Calm(stork is so bad against aggresive zergs sometimes) and Kal are the only ones I can see even having a chance to beat him. As number 2 probably bisu if he comes out of his MSL group otherwise it will be jaedong. The rest of the bunch is actually pretty hard to rate.
Oh god, things are proceeding faster than planned. This is excellent.
If you remember last month, I predicted Stork at #6 this month, and somewhere #2-5 January and #1 February. He is now poised to take #1 in January. Oh yes, I am looking forward to this.
I predicted that Flash and JD would both lose on both the OSL and MSL Ro16/Ro32, but 3/4 isn't bad.
Throw my vote in for a new PR on the first of January. Should get you before OSL Ro8, after MSL Ro32, and before a new week of SPL.
Actually, I think Stork is liable to lose his #1 spot in February. Given comparative forms, I think Stork has an edge over Hiya, but it should not be forgotten that Hiya is 4-1 against Stork. And then the most likely follow up scenario is Stork vs Kal. Kal is the #2 PvP player in the world and Stork's PvP isn't what it used to be.
But this month Stork is basically a lock for #1 now. In both leagues, 12-2 record for the month, plus he has momentum.
Stork should be #1 for the reasons Mortality stated, absolutely no reason to put anyone in front of him.
Then Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu in that order. It looks like we're returning to TBLS dominance. Flash, despite being out of both leagues, is too good to be below 3.
Kal and Calm should be next. Both are in both leagues and STX has been doing very well in PL. Kal goes down from 3 to 5 due to a mini-slump though.
Hydra and Shine should get the 7 and 8 spots. Both got knocked out in the Ro16 of the OSL, but both are still in MSL and have been great in proleague.
Fantasy should fall to 9th for abysmal PL and MSL results, only thing keeping him in the top 10 should be his OSL run. Last spot should go to Roro for his quiet but solid performance that he always seems to do, and his win over Stork in MSL.
Sea, Light, Mind, Modesty, Hiya, and great should all be CBNCed.
Not to pick on Bisu but he got eliminated from the OSL playing a Bo3 in his best matchup... Jaedong got eliminated playing a teamkill and ZvZ which has always been a coin-flip match-up. Plus, aren't we forgetting we might see Bisu vs. JD tonight? Wouldn't that be a good indicator of #2 assuming they play?
What's more JD may lose ace matches, but one was to Stork who cheesed, the other are again ZvZ which are coinflips. And T1 is nowhere NEAR as dependent on Bisu as Oz is on JD. Two totally different PL situations.
If they don't play tonight, let MSL decide, but I don't think JD should be knocked off #2 as of yet. But I'm kinda biased (look at my sig )
Edit: All for Stork as numero uno tho, saw him play against GoRush last night, fucking perfect display of PvZ
The ZvZ are coinflips argument is overstated and not really true anymore. It used to be true waaaaaaaaaay back when. Back when ZvZ was a choice of straight 9 pool (before OL), 12 pool gas, and 12 hat. These days builds are more refined and tactics are more refined and timings are really well worked out so that a player knows exactly when lings will arrive at his base regardless of the opponent's build.
And the "coinflip" issues of the match-up did favor JD. I'm willing to overlook the flop so long as JD otherwise speaking shows us the JD we are used to and right now I do think JD is a sharper choice for #2, but that could change depending on results.
Also, regarding Flash... #3 rank... by absolute skill, Flash is still probably #1 and I for the most part advocate PR as a measure of absolute skill. But the reality is, I have difficulty accepting the notion that a player not in either league should be above a player in both leagues. Right now that means Stork and Calm. Kal could potentially do this as well.
The truth is, Flash has not had a good month. A 7-5 record could be forgiven if Flash had advanced in both individual leagues, or even just one of them, but he dropped the ball in both of them. Oops.
I know you simply can't forgive dropping both leagues, but I was looking through TLPD and I noticed something about Flash:
He's 70%+ in all three matchups. Still. He's 70%+ in all three matchups in his last ten (7-3 vs T, 9-1 vs Z, 7-3 vs P). I know the league thing counts, and I know he's taken some bad losses (by which I mean Ssak and Hyuk), but part of me is wanting to think that Flash is still the best, baddest player out there.
We're in a very weird place right now where probably the best player (Flash) has no apparent weaknesses overall - except that the (apparently unavoidable) fail games are all happening when it counts. Jaedong's got problems with top Terran right now, but he's still in the MSL. Stork's PvP is an issue, but he's through both leagues and playing brilliantly in PL. Bisu may be the scariest player right now, but he's dropped the OSL and has that MSL Group of Death. Kal has the starleague results (so far) but lacks that convincing aura, or a defining matchup (despite being able to beat Flash). Shine's run seems to have been cut down abruptly. Hydra's got astonishing results - but he's a relative no-name.
I guess I just don't feel quite right about Flash losing #1 - which he clearly has to - when no one's really stepped up to take it away from him. I'm aware others have said this before as well, but I'm adding my thoughts.
And I'm saying this because I'm trying to justify what I'd do with the PR: I'd only drop Flash to #2, as of right now. It would look like this:
ELOs don't really mean that much unless we're talking about Jaedong and Flash and measuring their dominance of the proscene. Of course Hydra and Shine are going to have the 2nd and 3rd highest zerg ELOs because they're the only ones that haven't completely crapped their pants in recent times.
Hydra could end up winning 20 games in a row and I still won't remember anything about him. All I'll remember is Violet losing eight probes to two zerglings or Free screwing up his forge expand. The guy is a good player but he's like the Guemchi in the sense that he somehow brings the worst out of his opponents.
On December 28 2010 13:02 Musoeun wrote: I know you simply can't forgive dropping both leagues, but I was looking through TLPD and I noticed something about Flash:
He's 70%+ in all three matchups. Still. He's 70%+ in all three matchups in his last ten (7-3 vs T, 9-1 vs Z, 7-3 vs P). I know the league thing counts, and I know he's taken some bad losses (by which I mean Ssak and Hyuk), but part of me is wanting to think that Flash is still the best, baddest player out there.
We're in a very weird place right now where probably the best player (Flash) has no apparent weaknesses overall - except that the (apparently unavoidable) fail games are all happening when it counts. Jaedong's got problems with top Terran right now, but he's still in the MSL. Stork's PvP is an issue, but he's through both leagues and playing brilliantly in PL. Bisu may be the scariest player right now, but he's dropped the OSL and has that MSL Group of Death. Kal has the starleague results (so far) but lacks that convincing aura, or a defining matchup (despite being able to beat Flash). Shine's run seems to have been cut down abruptly. Hydra's got astonishing results - but he's a relative no-name.
I guess I just don't feel quite right about Flash losing #1 - which he clearly has to - when no one's really stepped up to take it away from him. I'm aware others have said this before as well, but I'm adding my thoughts.
And I'm saying this because I'm trying to justify what I'd do with the PR: I'd only drop Flash to #2, as of right now. It would look like this:
And then some combination of: Hyuk, fantasy, RorO, Leta, Zero?
Basically, flamewheel, you have my sympathy.
FlaSh deserves #2 over multiple players in starleagues and/or with comparative records in PL? Insane. He may still be the best, he may have been found out, we won't know for a while yet, but the fact of the matter is that he dropped out of both leagues, and although I can see how he coudld lose to Kal on a protoss favored map, losing to Ssak, Classic, and HyuK is just a terrible blow. He deserves #5 at most.
On December 28 2010 13:02 Musoeun wrote: I know you simply can't forgive dropping both leagues, but I was looking through TLPD and I noticed something about Flash:
He's 70%+ in all three matchups. Still. He's 70%+ in all three matchups in his last ten (7-3 vs T, 9-1 vs Z, 7-3 vs P). I know the league thing counts, and I know he's taken some bad losses (by which I mean Ssak and Hyuk), but part of me is wanting to think that Flash is still the best, baddest player out there.
We're in a very weird place right now where probably the best player (Flash) has no apparent weaknesses overall - except that the (apparently unavoidable) fail games are all happening when it counts. Jaedong's got problems with top Terran right now, but he's still in the MSL. Stork's PvP is an issue, but he's through both leagues and playing brilliantly in PL. Bisu may be the scariest player right now, but he's dropped the OSL and has that MSL Group of Death. Kal has the starleague results (so far) but lacks that convincing aura, or a defining matchup (despite being able to beat Flash). Shine's run seems to have been cut down abruptly. Hydra's got astonishing results - but he's a relative no-name.
I agree with that. Despite being eliminated Flash is still the scariest and best player. I get a feeling Flash is going to go on a PL winstreak that would put GoRush to shame.
On December 28 2010 13:02 Musoeun wrote: I know you simply can't forgive dropping both leagues, but I was looking through TLPD and I noticed something about Flash:
He's 70%+ in all three matchups. Still. He's 70%+ in all three matchups in his last ten (7-3 vs T, 9-1 vs Z, 7-3 vs P). I know the league thing counts, and I know he's taken some bad losses (by which I mean Ssak and Hyuk), but part of me is wanting to think that Flash is still the best, baddest player out there.
We're in a very weird place right now where probably the best player (Flash) has no apparent weaknesses overall - except that the (apparently unavoidable) fail games are all happening when it counts. Jaedong's got problems with top Terran right now, but he's still in the MSL. Stork's PvP is an issue, but he's through both leagues and playing brilliantly in PL. Bisu may be the scariest player right now, but he's dropped the OSL and has that MSL Group of Death. Kal has the starleague results (so far) but lacks that convincing aura, or a defining matchup (despite being able to beat Flash). Shine's run seems to have been cut down abruptly. Hydra's got astonishing results - but he's a relative no-name.
I guess I just don't feel quite right about Flash losing #1 - which he clearly has to - when no one's really stepped up to take it away from him. I'm aware others have said this before as well, but I'm adding my thoughts.
And I'm saying this because I'm trying to justify what I'd do with the PR: I'd only drop Flash to #2, as of right now. It would look like this:
And then some combination of: Hyuk, fantasy, RorO, Leta, Zero?
Basically, flamewheel, you have my sympathy.
To be honest, he deserves a fairly steep drop to #4/5(probably #4 since Shine just dropped a league). The fact that he's 'still Flash' means something, but he can't keep #2 just on that because frankly, if you're the most skilled player in the world but you don't accomplish anything, then what good is all that skill?
On December 28 2010 13:02 Musoeun wrote: I know you simply can't forgive dropping both leagues, but I was looking through TLPD and I noticed something about Flash:
He's 70%+ in all three matchups. Still. He's 70%+ in all three matchups in his last ten (7-3 vs T, 9-1 vs Z, 7-3 vs P). I know the league thing counts, and I know he's taken some bad losses (by which I mean Ssak and Hyuk), but part of me is wanting to think that Flash is still the best, baddest player out there.
We're in a very weird place right now where probably the best player (Flash) has no apparent weaknesses overall - except that the (apparently unavoidable) fail games are all happening when it counts. Jaedong's got problems with top Terran right now, but he's still in the MSL. Stork's PvP is an issue, but he's through both leagues and playing brilliantly in PL. Bisu may be the scariest player right now, but he's dropped the OSL and has that MSL Group of Death. Kal has the starleague results (so far) but lacks that convincing aura, or a defining matchup (despite being able to beat Flash). Shine's run seems to have been cut down abruptly. Hydra's got astonishing results - but he's a relative no-name.
I guess I just don't feel quite right about Flash losing #1 - which he clearly has to - when no one's really stepped up to take it away from him. I'm aware others have said this before as well, but I'm adding my thoughts.
And I'm saying this because I'm trying to justify what I'd do with the PR: I'd only drop Flash to #2, as of right now. It would look like this:
And then some combination of: Hyuk, fantasy, RorO, Leta, Zero?
Basically, flamewheel, you have my sympathy.
FlaSh deserves #2 over multiple players in starleagues and/or with comparative records in PL? Insane. He may still be the best, he may have been found out, we won't know for a while yet, but the fact of the matter is that he dropped out of both leagues, and although I can see how he coudld lose to Kal on a protoss favored map, losing to Ssak, Classic, and HyuK is just a terrible blow. He deserves #5 at most.
He's right in what he's saying but he's wrong -- IMO -- in assuming it's adequate justification to keep Flash at (or near) the top of the PR.
Flash is still the scariest player, still the strongest. If your life was at stake, he's still the player you would bet on. Dual finals last season, tremendous momentum to start off this season... but I don't think giving him such a high rank is justifiable. Advancing in individual leagues is the most important thing.
I agree that it's awkward giving Flash a low rank when it's not really like he's worse than the guys above him. Hell, it's even like they are comparable in skill because they are not. He's still bonjwa.
But let's face it: Flash has now been relegated to the ranks of "proleague only" for the entire rest of the season. In Ro32 of MSL no less.
In my mind, 7-5 and dropping from both leagues is worse than 5-7 and advancing in one of them. This is why I feel uncomfortable putting someone who just got disqualified from both leagues in the same month over players who advanced in both of them.
He's going to get a bone tossed to him for being bonjwa. Automatically he will be ranked ahead of many other players who managed to advance in just one league. But at a certain point you have to ask why you are tossing such a large bone when he lost the games that mattered most?
On December 28 2010 13:02 Musoeun wrote: I know you simply can't forgive dropping both leagues, but I was looking through TLPD and I noticed something about Flash:
He's 70%+ in all three matchups. Still. He's 70%+ in all three matchups in his last ten (7-3 vs T, 9-1 vs Z, 7-3 vs P). I know the league thing counts, and I know he's taken some bad losses (by which I mean Ssak and Hyuk), but part of me is wanting to think that Flash is still the best, baddest player out there.
We're in a very weird place right now where probably the best player (Flash) has no apparent weaknesses overall - except that the (apparently unavoidable) fail games are all happening when it counts. Jaedong's got problems with top Terran right now, but he's still in the MSL. Stork's PvP is an issue, but he's through both leagues and playing brilliantly in PL. Bisu may be the scariest player right now, but he's dropped the OSL and has that MSL Group of Death. Kal has the starleague results (so far) but lacks that convincing aura, or a defining matchup (despite being able to beat Flash). Shine's run seems to have been cut down abruptly. Hydra's got astonishing results - but he's a relative no-name.
I guess I just don't feel quite right about Flash losing #1 - which he clearly has to - when no one's really stepped up to take it away from him. I'm aware others have said this before as well, but I'm adding my thoughts.
And I'm saying this because I'm trying to justify what I'd do with the PR: I'd only drop Flash to #2, as of right now. It would look like this:
And then some combination of: Hyuk, fantasy, RorO, Leta, Zero?
Basically, flamewheel, you have my sympathy.
FlaSh deserves #2 over multiple players in starleagues and/or with comparative records in PL? Insane. He may still be the best, he may have been found out, we won't know for a while yet, but the fact of the matter is that he dropped out of both leagues, and although I can see how he coudld lose to Kal on a protoss favored map, losing to Ssak, Classic, and HyuK is just a terrible blow. He deserves #5 at most.
He's right in what he's saying but he's wrong -- IMO -- in assuming it's adequate justification to keep Flash at (or near) the top of the PR.
Flash is still the scariest player, still the strongest. If your life was at stake, he's still the player you would bet on. Dual finals last season, tremendous momentum to start off this season... but I don't think giving him such a high rank is justifiable. Advancing in individual leagues is the most important thing.
I agree that it's awkward giving Flash a low rank when it's not really like he's worse than the guys above him. Hell, it's even like they are comparable in skill because they are not. He's still bonjwa.
But let's face it: Flash has now been relegated to the ranks of "proleague only" for the entire rest of the season. In Ro32 of MSL no less.
In my mind, 7-5 and dropping from both leagues is worse than 5-7 and advancing in one of them. This is why I feel uncomfortable putting someone who just got disqualified from both leagues in the same month over players who advanced in both of them.
He's going to get a bone tossed to him for being bonjwa. Automatically he will be ranked ahead of many other players who managed to advance in just one league. But at a certain point you have to ask why you are tossing such a large bone when he lost the games that mattered most?
I agree with the post. Flash may be Flash but not being in either league this early is really bad. I can't justify having him above people in both leagues when he is in neither. Even though he is bonjwa since winning both leagues last season, what good is it being the best if you don't get results?
I think everyone can agree that Stork is #1. He is in both leagues, the favorite to win the OSL and one of the favorites to win the MSL. And to add onto that he is 6-0 in proleague this month and it is really hard to argue him being anything but #1.
After Stork the ranking gets a lot harder. Calm is the only other player certainly in both leagues and Kal is the only person who could be a post group stage dual-leaguer
The other people in the running for tops spots are Bisu, Jaedong and Shine. Bisu/Shine Obviously need to advance in MSL to be top 5, and the only way for Bisu to be above Jaedong is if he beats him head to head in PL (Or absolutely destroy his MSL group)
After considering all this I personally would have the rank look something like this (Assuming that Bisu and Kal get through group H because that makes the ranking the least messy) 1. Stork-Explained above 2. Jaedong-Favorite to win MSL and doing really well in PL. JD is above Bisu because he made dual finals last season and I consider history. 3. Bisu-One of the favorites to win the MSL and doing really well in PL. 4. Kal-Doing OK in PL and possibly dual league. If he beats Bisu in MSL he should be higher than him 5. Calm-If there are only three people in both leagues he deserves top five basically. Doing pretty poorly in PL but has individual league results 6. Flash-He is Flash so he gets a spot, but I can't justify him being higher than the five people above him with the results he has 7. Hydra-Great record overall, though his loss to fantasy in the OSL looked pretty bad 8. Shine-This is assuming he is knocked out of MSL, but his recent record is incredible so he deserves a lower spot 9. Fantasy-Despite looking like shit in most of his games since his OSL match vs Modesty he is still in the OSL Ro8 and just over a month ago had a 12 win streak and looked like he was S-class 10. RorO/great-Tenth spot was hard because there was really no one who jumped out past the first nine. Both of these guys are in MSL and looked good in their Ro32 matches so I would put one of them at #10 but really anyone on CNBCC who is in one of the leagues could have this spot
I think the top 9 should definitely be on the rank but the order they should be in is difficult and is dependent on the matches in the next few days
The top five is mostly going to change around based on MSL group H. Kal is near top 5 no matter what imo (though it could be as high as #2 if he wrecks the group but #5 or 6 if he doesn't advance), but whoever of Bisu/Shine advances should get top 5, but if they don't they should be lower than Hydra. If Really gets through he should get #10 or CNBC
If everything before now was not enough proof, that game against Bisu shows that Jaedong is not up to par. He was pretty much outclassed. That was a pretty greedy build, but he didn't even put up a fight. He just kinda rolled over.
I think it's sad that Calm hasn't even been mentioned in CBNC yet. He has a pretty decent vP in his last 10 games, along with an equally decent vZ. He made dual leagues and he's resurging in ZvT as well. Sure, he might not be dominating, but he has results and some very nifty games.
IMO Calm deserves to be ranked right above Flash. What Calm lacks is momentum. People aren't convinced that his evil twin Clam won't come back. But Calm is 10-3 this month with his only losses being to Light, Jaedong, and Hydra.
On December 28 2010 21:26 Holgerius wrote: It's funny how Flash is still around 50 ELO points ahead of the #2. :D
ELO treats all games as equal. It doesn't really care that Flash dropped out of both Starleagues, it only sees the 4 losses Flash picked up on the way. Actually, I anticipate Flash's ELO going up. With only proleague to focus on he is likely to go on a massive tear. But ELO is only one particular measurement and it's not always the best indicator of what's happening. Even if Flash sets a new ELO peak record and even if he breaks Gorush's record winstreak, there is no denying that this has been Flash's worst season for at least the past year.
On December 29 2010 01:18 Mortality wrote: IMO Calm deserves to be ranked right above Flash. What Calm lacks is momentum. People aren't convinced that his evil twin Clam won't come back. But Calm is 10-3 this month with his only losses being to Light, Jaedong, and Hydra.
On December 28 2010 21:26 Holgerius wrote: It's funny how Flash is still around 50 ELO points ahead of the #2. :D
ELO treats all games as equal. It doesn't really care that Flash dropped out of both Starleagues, it only sees the 4 losses Flash picked up on the way. Actually, I anticipate Flash's ELO going up. With only proleague to focus on he is likely to go on a massive tear. But ELO is only one particular measurement and it's not always the best indicator of what's happening. Even if Flash sets a new ELO peak record and even if he breaks Gorush's record winstreak, there is no denying that this has been Flash's worst season for at least the past year.
Not denying that. It has been a horrible month for Flash. It's still funny though; it shows just how far ahead of everyone else he has been.
It's normal to loose a few PR rank when a good player had a bad month. If flash is still the best, he should get his first spot in no time. But right now, he is not doing well enough to be first.
On December 29 2010 02:10 kamizushi wrote: It's normal to loose a few PR rank when a good player had a bad month. If flash is still the best, he should get his first spot in no time. But right now, he is not doing well enough to be first.
Not to forget that he can not prove his superiority due to his lack of individual leagues. But he did not play that good in general so we can not say that he will even continue his proleague run. Who thought he could lose probably the worst msl group ever? And continue to lose a mediocre OSL group? You can not rely on titles you won 2 months ago. Same goes for JD. He has looked very mortal and I can't see anyone put him as #2 atm. There is still the last msl group but I doubt it will cange too much
On December 29 2010 02:10 kamizushi wrote: It's normal to loose a few PR rank when a good player had a bad month. If flash is still the best, he should get his first spot in no time. But right now, he is not doing well enough to be first.
Not to forget that he can not prove his superiority due to his lack of individual leagues. But he did not play that good in general so we can not say that he will even continue his proleague run. Who thought he could lose probably the worst msl group ever? And continue to lose a mediocre OSL group? You can not rely on titles you won 2 months ago. Same goes for JD. He has looked very mortal and I can't see anyone put him as #2 atm. There is still the last msl group but I doubt it will cange too much
If he continues to dominate in PL he can easily prove he is better than anyone else. Everyone loses games and Flash happened to lose them at the wrong time.
If you were going to die and someone had to play a Bo5 to save your life, which player would you choose to play it for you? Shine? Come on.
Everyone loses game indeed, but Flash lost important games, that's what matters. I don't think anyone actually believe Flash is done, but right now, this month, his games showed that he's not #1.
He should still be on top 10, and he'll probably come back top 3 soon, but that's a monthly ranking, though we do take into account the past, it can't decide the whole ranking.
...Nowhere close to the worst MSL group ever. Actually, I'm not entirely sure that group A was easier than group F of this MSL, not even counting that ForGG retired...
And the last MSL group can change egverything. What if Bisu gets 2-0'd? Then he's not in either league. What is Shine gets 2-0'd? Same deal. Kal at least is guaranteed to be in at least one league, but his overall results for this month is an abysmal 6-8 against competition of mixed skill and I hesitate to give him the nod over JD who has much stronger results.
From the perspective of PR, it would be easiest if Shine and Bisu win group H. Here's what I see: Stork (12-2 in Dec, advanced in both leagues, strong momentum) - obvious #1 Shine (7-4, dropped in OSL, needs to advance in MSL) Bisu (6-2, very strong momentum, not in OSL, needs an MSL win) Kal (6-8, advanced in OSL, despite strong momentum, needs an MSL win to vouch for him) Jaedong (10-5, advanced in MSL, looking kiiiinda shaky, but he's still Jaedong) Hydra (11-2, advanced in MSL, dropped in OSL, could this be his breakout season?) Calm (10-3, advanced in both leagues... he's back... I think) Great (8-2, advanced in MSL can he hold the momentum?) Fantasy (7-8, squeaked by in OSL, fell in MSL, worst month he's had in a long time) Leta (6-3, rode in on a personal record win streak but crashed and burned in MSL, not in OSL) Modesty (5-2, advanced in OSL, still not sure you aren't just a ZvZ whose had a little luck lately) Baby (5-1, but not in either league... so...) Snow (7-3, advanced in MSL, now at personal best ELO, but I worry about his PvZ) Edit: forgot Flash, lol (7-5, dropped both leagues, ouchie)
That's pretty much everyone who came to mind as a contender. Someone mentioned Hyuk, but he's 3-4 in December and if you look at his stats, 2-8 in his last 10 ZvT, 1-9 in his last 10 ZvZ... the only MU he's doing okay in is ZvP. And some other players who are normally reliable like Soulkey just have not had good months.
A major shoutout needs to be given to ACE on this ranking. They are doing quite well in proleague. Xellos in particular is 3-0 for them, and ggaemo deserves mention because he sucked his whole time on OZ and is now playing better than he ever did for them.
stork's unstoppable at the moment, i'd be very surprised if we see someone else in #1 spot next month, flash is having a terrible month and jaedongs having not a great month (he got manhandled by bisu today to top it all off).
get ready for a new look power ranking in the first month of 2011!
On December 28 2010 13:02 Musoeun wrote: I know you simply can't forgive dropping both leagues, but I was looking through TLPD and I noticed something about Flash:
He's 70%+ in all three matchups. Still. He's 70%+ in all three matchups in his last ten (7-3 vs T, 9-1 vs Z, 7-3 vs P). I know the league thing counts, and I know he's taken some bad losses (by which I mean Ssak and Hyuk), but part of me is wanting to think that Flash is still the best, baddest player out there.
I agree and I think others do. If I would base it on a feeling I'd still put flash at #1 because I still believe that he's the best with only jaedong being close. However I would drop him a few spots based on the criteria of the PR if I understand it correctly.
On December 28 2010 13:02 Musoeun wrote: I know you simply can't forgive dropping both leagues, but I was looking through TLPD and I noticed something about Flash:
He's 70%+ in all three matchups. Still. He's 70%+ in all three matchups in his last ten (7-3 vs T, 9-1 vs Z, 7-3 vs P). I know the league thing counts, and I know he's taken some bad losses (by which I mean Ssak and Hyuk), but part of me is wanting to think that Flash is still the best, baddest player out there.
I agree and I think others do. If I would base it on a feeling I'd still put flash at #1 because I still believe that he's the best with only jaedong being close. However I would drop him a few spots based on the criteria of the PR if I understand it correctly.
As I said before, if you're the best but don't win anything, does it do you any good? When you have skill, you have to get results. Flash has failed to do so.
And if Jaedong is the only one close, why did he get destroyed by Bisu? ...
There are three leagues. Now the players themselves consider SPL the most important. But not enough to give Flash a spot in the top 2. Assuming Bisu and Kal take their MSL group, regardless of who went 2-0, they deserve the be higher than Flash. Kal's SPL performance is poor, but he has two leagues that Flash failed in. Bisu will have 1 league and SPL performance on par with Flash. Calm has been doing good and is in both leagues. He survived an OSL group that Jaedong lacked the skill to advance from.
1. Stork 2. Bisu 3-5 Calm / Jaedong / Kal (hard to call this order, could go any way) 6. Flash (SPL performance is outstanding)
^Remember, this is assuming that Kal and Bisu advance ahead of Shine. If Bisu loses he should be 1 spot below Flash. Just like Flash he has an incredible SPL record, but he lacks the recent history so Flash would get a nod. Hard to place Kal if he loses. His SPL record is poor, so just the OSL might not be enough to put him above Flash.
Yeah he got destroyed by bisu last time that auto means he's terrible? lolol 1 game doesn't prove anything. If it was a bo3 or something sure you could use that but it was just 1 match against eachother.
Calm down. I'm just fighting the claim that a) Flash is #1 and b) JD is #2. Flash is out of both leagues, and JD just lost a game to arguably the other contender for the #2 spot. Bisu and JD are obviously very close, but their most recent game has shown that JD should not get an automatic bye into the #2 rank on the PR. Assuming Bisu survives his MSL group, their both be 1 league with good SPL records. Bisu winning the latest head-to-head gives him the advantage.
On December 29 2010 08:10 blade55555 wrote: Yeah he got destroyed by bisu last time that auto means he's terrible? lolol 1 game doesn't prove anything. If it was a bo3 or something sure you could use that but it was just 1 match against eachother.
Does the fact that Jaedong lost to EVERY good player he's played so far mean anything? Bisu is just the 5th time this happened.
On December 29 2010 07:00 Crisium wrote: And if Jaedong is the only one close, why did he get destroyed by Bisu? ...
There are three leagues. Now the players themselves consider SPL the most important. But not enough to give Flash a spot in the top 2. Assuming Bisu and Kal take their MSL group, regardless of who went 2-0, they deserve the be higher than Flash. Kal's SPL performance is poor, but he has two leagues that Flash failed in. Bisu will have 1 league and SPL performance on par with Flash. Calm has been doing good and is in both leagues. He survived an OSL group that Jaedong lacked the skill to advance from.
1. Stork 2. Bisu 3-5 Calm / Jaedong / Kal (hard to call this order, could go any way) 6. Flash (SPL performance is outstanding)
^Remember, this is assuming that Kal and Bisu advance ahead of Shine. If Bisu loses he should be 1 spot below Flash. Just like Flash he has an incredible SPL record, but he lacks the recent history so Flash would get a nod. Hard to place Kal if he loses. His SPL record is poor, so just the OSL might not be enough to put him above Flash.
PL is more important for say... Bogus because he knows he's never gonna win a starleague but for someone with an actual chance to win the whole thing SL are more important then PL (even stork said he's gonna stop playing cellphone games to practice for OSL)
I hate to say something mean, but I want Kal to drop out in MSL. I don't really want to put him above Flash or JD in the ranking. If he advances, then I hope that he will advance with convincing results so that I feel more sure about it. But at this point, the best he can do is 50% for December and it's not like his momentum coming into the month is that strong.
Bisu advancing would make things easier, especially if it's 2-0. On the other hand, he has to be convincing to belong above Flash.
I think Hydra is being overlooked. He's had the 2nd or 3rd best month of anyone and I'm tempted to place him over Flash and JD.
Obviously Stork, Flash, JD, Bisu, Calm and Hydra are in the ranking. Exactly where they go depends on exactly how things turn out + a few big decisions on how to weight things. Kal probably will get a mention unless he gets 2-0'd embarrassingly, in which case I'd drop him. Same with Shine. That's 8 people. At this point I'd consider Great and Snow my other two. If either Kal or Shine gets dropped from the ranking, I'd consider bumping in Fantasy. If both managed to get dropped (with Bisu and Really advancing), I'd consider Modesty. Baby and Leta are CBNC. If both Kal and Shine stay on, then Fantasy and Modesty are CBNC as well.
On December 29 2010 07:00 Crisium wrote: And if Jaedong is the only one close, why did he get destroyed by Bisu? ...
There are three leagues. Now the players themselves consider SPL the most important. But not enough to give Flash a spot in the top 2. Assuming Bisu and Kal take their MSL group, regardless of who went 2-0, they deserve the be higher than Flash. Kal's SPL performance is poor, but he has two leagues that Flash failed in. Bisu will have 1 league and SPL performance on par with Flash. Calm has been doing good and is in both leagues. He survived an OSL group that Jaedong lacked the skill to advance from.
1. Stork 2. Bisu 3-5 Calm / Jaedong / Kal (hard to call this order, could go any way) 6. Flash (SPL performance is outstanding)
^Remember, this is assuming that Kal and Bisu advance ahead of Shine. If Bisu loses he should be 1 spot below Flash. Just like Flash he has an incredible SPL record, but he lacks the recent history so Flash would get a nod. Hard to place Kal if he loses. His SPL record is poor, so just the OSL might not be enough to put him above Flash.
PL is more important for say... Bogus because he knows he's never gonna win a starleague but for someone with an actual chance to win the whole thing SL are more important then PL (even stork said he's gonna stop playing cellphone games to practice for OSL)
I have a bugaboo about people saying SPL is more important than individual leagues, because it's true in a sense, but I think it's totally, totally misunderstood. SPL really is a team thing. Even though all the games are 1v1, team momentum and coaching decisions really drive it. No one player can do all the work and if that player does then it creates a poor team atmosphere anyway. When Flash and JD lead their teams to the playoffs, it's because they have support. It's because guys like Hiya, BackHo, Lomo (yes him, he used to be a decent sniper), Stats, Violet, and ForGG are pulling their weight, or at least enough of it to make a difference.
Drop 2 games in Starleague at the wrong time and it can mean you're relegated to SPL only for the rest of the season. Drop 2 games in SPL and it's like forgetting to vote: it won't make a real difference and if it turns out it does then shouldering that burden all by yourself is stupid. You won't sacrifice your Ro8 OSL matches for game 3 of tonight's SPL, that's a fact.
Stork an obvious 1 imo. After that it's a mix, bisu should be in the top three but with Flash and JD it's hard to tell what whether they're top three material due to their recent struggles. Calm is good as is hydra but I don't know how I'd place them.
On December 29 2010 09:28 DracoVolantus wrote: please try to make it on 1st, and stay strict 1st to 1st <3
i feel like this is unlikely for a variety of reasons (scheduling, having ~1 month between ranks, etc.)... it's more likely to ease into the 1st.
as for snow on PR ... he made a league, but how solid is he really? I guess he beat up free a few times, got smashed by JD, and beat action. is that enough to get him on the rank?
i'd say stork, (jd flash bisu kal calm) (hydra shine great modesty/leta) or something like that.
Everyone knows Stork is the better overall protoss. Bisu is just a multitasking freak who uses other players builds, Stork comes up with his own builds while playing cellphone games, WoW, and watching One Piece. The choice is easy.
On December 28 2010 13:02 Musoeun wrote: I know you simply can't forgive dropping both leagues, but I was looking through TLPD and I noticed something about Flash:
He's 70%+ in all three matchups. Still. He's 70%+ in all three matchups in his last ten (7-3 vs T, 9-1 vs Z, 7-3 vs P). I know the league thing counts, and I know he's taken some bad losses (by which I mean Ssak and Hyuk), but part of me is wanting to think that Flash is still the best, baddest player out there.
I agree and I think others do. If I would base it on a feeling I'd still put flash at #1 because I still believe that he's the best with only jaedong being close. However I would drop him a few spots based on the criteria of the PR if I understand it correctly.
As I said before, if you're the best but don't win anything, does it do you any good? When you have skill, you have to get results. Flash has failed to do so.
While I totally agree that if you're the best but don't win anything, it doesn't do you any good, it's just so ironic to see it coming from any Bisu fan when he's the ultimate example of this.
OK this is how i see things. 1.Flash (note:I hate Flash but still put him as N1,i think thats more than enough proof that Flash is the best player.I mean Flash was demolishing everything last month,no one ever doubted that he was number one just a month ago.If he lost to ssak,classic and hyuk in proleague and advanced in both leagues will he be droped?I don't think so.Every player has bad days,unfortunately for Flash ,he had his bad days at a bad time.Two or three bad loses could not overcome a year of complete and undisputed dominance.Flash is still The N1 ELO and Kespa rank and he is not getting overthrown from them anytime soon.In terms of POWER Flash is still the best player on earth and everyone knows he will be coming back next season maybe even more powerful than before .) 2.Stork (obvious..) 3.Bisu/JD (depending on tomorrow's MSL group) 4JD/Bisu 5.Hydra 6.Calm 7.Shine/Kal 8.Kal/Shine 9.Fanta 10.Great/Modesty/Snow
On December 29 2010 10:49 flamewheel wrote: What if I decided to troll everybody (except for Harem) and put Killer at #1?
This is only allowed if Killer starts posting on TL.
On December 29 2010 20:08 zmeqt wrote: 1.Flash (note:I hate Flash but still put him as N1,i think thats more than enough proof that Flash is the best player.I mean Flash was demolishing everything last month,no one ever doubted that he was number one just a month ago.If he lost to ssak,classic and hyuk in proleague and advanced in both leagues will he be droped?...
If PR was simply, "Who's the best player?", "Who wins a Bo5 99% of the time?", etc. this could work, but because of the way the PR actually works this just isn't possible, especially when we've got (at least) two dual-leagues in Stork and Calm. They don't both have to be ahead of Flash, necessarily, if it's well argued, but at least one of them does - because that's how things work. Depending how the last MSL groups go, I'm okay with Flash being anywhere from 2 to about 7 - but anyone who goes 3-3 and gets knocked out of both leagues simply can't keep a #1 position.
On December 30 2010 07:02 Musoeun wrote: Well I was just counting since this PR date... it might be 5-3 by that criterion depending when it was released.
Ah, I see. I've been looking at the whole month. I justify this with the fact that half a month's worth of games is a ridiculously small sample. As it is, even just going 1 month between rankings provides very little to work with.
On December 29 2010 20:08 zmeqt wrote: OK this is how i see things. 1.Flash (note:I hate Flash but still put him as N1,i think thats more than enough proof that Flash is the best player.I mean Flash was demolishing everything last month,no one ever doubted that he was number one just a month ago.If he lost to ssak,classic and hyuk in proleague and advanced in both leagues will he be droped?I don't think so.Every player has bad days,unfortunately for Flash ,he had his bad days at a bad time.Two or three bad loses could not overcome a year of complete and undisputed dominance.Flash is still The N1 ELO and Kespa rank and he is not getting overthrown from them anytime soon.In terms of POWER Flash is still the best player on earth and everyone knows he will be coming back next season maybe even more powerful than before .)
If you use that as your PR method then Flash should be number one on every PR going back to early 2008.
Right now, Jaedong is 1 loss from dropping the 2300 club. I wonder whether or not he will. Probably not, but definitely something to look out for. Bisu is closer to JD right now than JD is to Flash(by just a few points), and Stork isn't far behind.
On December 29 2010 20:08 zmeqt wrote: OK this is how i see things. 1.Flash (note:I hate Flash but still put him as N1,i think thats more than enough proof that Flash is the best player.I mean Flash was demolishing everything last month,no one ever doubted that he was number one just a month ago.If he lost to ssak,classic and hyuk in proleague and advanced in both leagues will he be droped?I don't think so.Every player has bad days,unfortunately for Flash ,he had his bad days at a bad time.Two or three bad loses could not overcome a year of complete and undisputed dominance.Flash is still The N1 ELO and Kespa rank and he is not getting overthrown from them anytime soon.In terms of POWER Flash is still the best player on earth and everyone knows he will be coming back next season maybe even more powerful than before .)
If you use that as your PR method then Flash should be number one on every PR going back to early 2008.
Umm... I know this is the fanboy in you talking, but... umm... No. He wouldn't be. Not by a fucking longshot.
Anyway, zmeqt, there is something which ranks the way you want it to be. Go look up Kespa ranking.
On December 29 2010 20:08 zmeqt wrote: OK this is how i see things. 1.Flash (note:I hate Flash but still put him as N1,i think thats more than enough proof that Flash is the best player.I mean Flash was demolishing everything last month,no one ever doubted that he was number one just a month ago.If he lost to ssak,classic and hyuk in proleague and advanced in both leagues will he be droped?I don't think so.Every player has bad days,unfortunately for Flash ,he had his bad days at a bad time.Two or three bad loses could not overcome a year of complete and undisputed dominance.Flash is still The N1 ELO and Kespa rank and he is not getting overthrown from them anytime soon.In terms of POWER Flash is still the best player on earth and everyone knows he will be coming back next season maybe even more powerful than before .)
If you use that as your PR method then Flash should be number one on every PR going back to early 2008.
Umm... I know this is the fanboy in you talking, but... umm... No. He wouldn't be. Not by a fucking longshot.
Anyway, zmeqt, there is something which ranks the way you want it to be. Go look up Kespa ranking.
Yes he would, people have considered him as the player with the highest raw skill for a long time, it's just that besides his bonjwa run he gets knocked out very early in leagues.
On December 29 2010 20:08 zmeqt wrote: OK this is how i see things. 1.Flash (note:I hate Flash but still put him as N1,i think thats more than enough proof that Flash is the best player.I mean Flash was demolishing everything last month,no one ever doubted that he was number one just a month ago.If he lost to ssak,classic and hyuk in proleague and advanced in both leagues will he be droped?I don't think so.Every player has bad days,unfortunately for Flash ,he had his bad days at a bad time.Two or three bad loses could not overcome a year of complete and undisputed dominance.Flash is still The N1 ELO and Kespa rank and he is not getting overthrown from them anytime soon.In terms of POWER Flash is still the best player on earth and everyone knows he will be coming back next season maybe even more powerful than before .)
If you use that as your PR method then Flash should be number one on every PR going back to early 2008.
Umm... I know this is the fanboy in you talking, but... umm... No. He wouldn't be. Not by a fucking longshot.
Anyway, zmeqt, there is something which ranks the way you want it to be. Go look up Kespa ranking.
Yes he would, people have considered him as the player with the highest raw skill for a long time, it's just that besides his bonjwa run he gets knocked out very early in leagues.
Jaedong was considered better for much of 2009. For a brief time, people were even starting to talk like Fantasy was better than Flash. Me included. And Kwanro had a power rank entry that said something like: he beat Flash, proving that... he's a Zerg. That's not even including the times when Stork and Bisu were considered stronger.
On December 29 2010 20:08 zmeqt wrote: OK this is how i see things. 1.Flash (note:I hate Flash but still put him as N1,i think thats more than enough proof that Flash is the best player.I mean Flash was demolishing everything last month,no one ever doubted that he was number one just a month ago.If he lost to ssak,classic and hyuk in proleague and advanced in both leagues will he be droped?I don't think so.Every player has bad days,unfortunately for Flash ,he had his bad days at a bad time.Two or three bad loses could not overcome a year of complete and undisputed dominance.Flash is still The N1 ELO and Kespa rank and he is not getting overthrown from them anytime soon.In terms of POWER Flash is still the best player on earth and everyone knows he will be coming back next season maybe even more powerful than before .)
If you use that as your PR method then Flash should be number one on every PR going back to early 2008.
Umm... I know this is the fanboy in you talking, but... umm... No. He wouldn't be. Not by a fucking longshot.
Anyway, zmeqt, there is something which ranks the way you want it to be. Go look up Kespa ranking.
Good point bringing up the Kespa ranking. Flash will certainly still be #1 there. That measures long term success, about the most recent full year. The PR measures the month.
Seriously, if Flash is still #1 next month then there's no point in having a monthly PR anymore. This is supposed to be more reactive than the Kespa ranking. And more subjective than the pure statistics ELO. Flash cannot be #1 after December - it is not a possibility.
I think the fact that Bisu dominated both his MSL group and Jaedong in PL gives him a #2 spot, yes? You really could argue for #1, but I think Stork just barely deserves #1 more. It's really close, Stork has an extra league while Bisu has better MSL performance and is god tier in PL.
Stork number 1 in my eyes for sure, and I'm a bisu fan. dual leagues>msl only, and while bisu has done better than stork in pl, stork's had a good, although not godly, pl month as well. the real contest is bisu vs jd for the number 2. and looking at it right now, history aside, bisu can make a pretty strong case to be honest.
On December 30 2010 19:47 Lightwip wrote: I think the fact that Bisu dominated both his MSL group and Jaedong in PL gives him a #2 spot, yes? You really could argue for #1, but I think Stork just barely deserves #1 more. It's really close, Stork has an extra league while Bisu has better MSL performance and is god tier in PL.
Stork has a better PL record this month, so it's not really that close.
On December 30 2010 19:47 Lightwip wrote: I think the fact that Bisu dominated both his MSL group and Jaedong in PL gives him a #2 spot, yes? You really could argue for #1, but I think Stork just barely deserves #1 more. It's really close, Stork has an extra league while Bisu has better MSL performance and is god tier in PL.
Stork has a better PL record this month, so it's not really that close.
Losing to Lucifer is a pretty bad loss though. Although this discussion is pointless because I agree that Stork is #1 anyways.
On December 30 2010 19:47 Lightwip wrote: I think the fact that Bisu dominated both his MSL group and Jaedong in PL gives him a #2 spot, yes? You really could argue for #1, but I think Stork just barely deserves #1 more. It's really close, Stork has an extra league while Bisu has better MSL performance and is god tier in PL.
Bisu was basically getting pwned by Shine before Shine failed. So domination is hardly how I'd describe it.
On December 30 2010 19:47 Lightwip wrote: I think the fact that Bisu dominated both his MSL group and Jaedong in PL gives him a #2 spot, yes? You really could argue for #1, but I think Stork just barely deserves #1 more. It's really close, Stork has an extra league while Bisu has better MSL performance and is god tier in PL.
Bisu was basically getting pwned by Shine before Shine failed. So domination is hardly how I'd describe it.
How so? Bisu stopped Shine from making a nat, defended a lurker bust with some good micro, then proceeded to use his cannon line and the lack of a nat to just go in. That isn't Shine throwing away a game, that is Bisu cutting Shine early then choking him to death. I think this is what it should be. 1. Stork 2. Bisu 3. Jaedong 4. Kal - He really impressed me today. He deserves this spot. Not higher because his PL performance is lacking and he has some uninspiring games. 5. Flash 6. Shine 7. Hydra 8/9 Calm/Fantasy 10. Light
On December 30 2010 19:47 Lightwip wrote: I think the fact that Bisu dominated both his MSL group and Jaedong in PL gives him a #2 spot, yes? You really could argue for #1, but I think Stork just barely deserves #1 more. It's really close, Stork has an extra league while Bisu has better MSL performance and is god tier in PL.
Bisu was basically getting pwned by Shine before Shine failed. So domination is hardly how I'd describe it.
How so? Bisu stopped Shine from making a nat, defended a lurker bust with some good micro, then proceeded to use his cannon line and the lack of a nat to just go in. That isn't Shine throwing away a game, that is Bisu cutting Shine early then choking him to death. I think this is what it should be. 1. Stork 2. Bisu 3. Jaedong 4. Kal - He really impressed me today. He deserves this spot. Not higher because his PL performance is lacking and he has some uninspiring games. 5. Flash 6. Shine 7. Hydra 8/9 Calm/Fantasy 10. Light
Fantasy and Light I would put in CBNC. I thought Great (8-3, advanced in MSL) and Snow (7-4, advanced in MSL) were maybe a bit sharper. By comparison, Light has encountered too many Protoss players and Fantasy has lost roughly 100 points in ELO in December.
Calm is way too low. He's in both leagues and went on a tear, 10-3 in December. Arguably Hydra is too low as well since he has the best record this month, 12-2. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'd consider bumping Jaedong down to below Flash and knocking Kal (and Flash) down one each to make room.
In defense of this, I'd like to point out that Hydra was one of the players to beat Jaedong and he took Kal and Calm along the way as well, although he did lose to Fantasy. That puts him at 3-1 against PR+CBNC. JD beat Calm and Snow, but lost to Hydra, Light and Bisu, putting him 2-3. Flash went 1-2 if we count Leta as CBNC, otherwise 0-2. Kal went 4-3, counting last night's games. To be honest, Calm only went 0-3, but I did advocate before that a player in both leagues should be ahead of a player in neither, and furthermore, his overall record is stronger than JD's, Flash's, or Kal's, at least by win percentage.
Midas is worth looking at for CBNC as well, or maybe taking a low spot on PR...
#1 Stork - No question about that. #2 Bisu - Strong performances all around, but lacks OSL. #3 Kal - Two leagues and he seems to be handling the pressure better nowadays. #4 Jaedong - I don't want to see him in the top3 like this. His strategic play has been awful lately. Still good in PL and looking strong in MSL, Plus that he is the Dong should grant him #4 #5 Flash - Flash needs to be punished to exit both leagues in the way he did, but he should not fall out of the top#5. Players not belonging to the great four have to show more to overtake him then getting out of their groups in individual leagues (Kal is my exception here) #6 Calm - Coming out of nowhere tearing up both leagues until now, but I'm not ready to put him ahead of Flash or Jaedong yet #7 Fantasy - Only because he is still in OSL and maybe because I am unreasonable. I just can't find another worthy #7 and I don't think he should be below Shine #8 Shine - That was a rude awakening. #9 Hydra - Very good record since the last PR (7-2) and still in one league, but I'm not ready to put him over Shine yet as the third scary zerg on this list. #10 great - He just hit one of those streaks were he is winning a lot... this will end very soon, but sometimes he can look very impressive, and this time of the year is now.
I guess this is a bit zerg heavy... but they are performing well and I am tired of having Light and Sea low on the PR just because they seem to be a natural fit down there.
Chances are good that both Calm and Kal will get a good position in the spotlight, what an awesome change! While Kal's losses are way too plenty, I think they have proven not to be as mentally unstable as before, and hope they stay for a long while. The month after this one will be incredibly exciting, with all sorts of possible ups and downs. Winners League Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork/Kal/hydra will be very interesting to watch.
On December 30 2010 23:32 Mortality wrote: Sea? Are you kidding? 2-8 in his past 10 games. In the past month he went on the longest loss streak of his career.
Yes, I was kidding. It was just a little sidekick, because PR writers often place him on 8-10 when they don't know anyone else to be there. Just always argue with a solid SPL-record, ace player for his team and you can nearly always give him a lower rank. But as you observed, not this month.
On December 30 2010 19:47 Lightwip wrote: I think the fact that Bisu dominated both his MSL group and Jaedong in PL gives him a #2 spot, yes? You really could argue for #1, but I think Stork just barely deserves #1 more. It's really close, Stork has an extra league while Bisu has better MSL performance and is god tier in PL.
Bisu was basically getting pwned by Shine before Shine failed. So domination is hardly how I'd describe it.
How so? Bisu stopped Shine from making a nat, defended a lurker bust with some good micro, then proceeded to use his cannon line and the lack of a nat to just go in. That isn't Shine throwing away a game, that is Bisu cutting Shine early then choking him to death. I think this is what it should be. 1. Stork 2. Bisu 3. Jaedong 4. Kal - He really impressed me today. He deserves this spot. Not higher because his PL performance is lacking and he has some uninspiring games. 5. Flash 6. Shine 7. Hydra 8/9 Calm/Fantasy 10. Light
this looks good but i would put light as cbnc and calm definitely deserves higher than 8/9. he is in dual leagues and definitely shouldnt be below shine and hydra. he probably has to be 6th at the lowest with shine taking a 8/9 spot. and honestly, i wouldn't even mind fantasy cnbc'd as well, he's been pretty bad lately but then again he has osl still. maybe great for that 9/10 spot?
i agree with you about kal being impressive lately despite having a bad month record-wise. as a protoss fan i hope he can deliver this season as he is in dual-leagues.
Calm is actually doing very well. He's in both leagues and doing much better in SPL now after his slow start--6-1 for December. Regardless, I owe Calm something for forgetting him entirely last month, it feels like.
After more consideration, perhaps this is what it should be: 1. Stork - At this point, I don't think anyone will argue anything else, even if there is a fair(yet worse) case for Bisu. 2. Bisu - Not much to say, he's looking god-tier most of the time. He cut through the group of death with a 2-0 performance and he looks unstoppable in PL. Not to mention he beat Jaedong. 3. Kal - He actually advanced from that accursed group of death, and with quite the performance. Even against Bisu, he didn't just give up when it was pretty obvious Bisu was way ahead, and he did all sorts of stuff with his shuttle(and he didn't mismicro and lose it either. I"ve been making fun if him for poor reaver play, but maybe the Acrobat of the Red Shuttle is back.). Bisu just didn't leave an opening for Kal to harass. 4/5. Flash/Jaedong - After a bit more thought, I really don't know whether or not Jaedong belongs higher than Flash. Jaedong has been up a league, yet in every other way he's been far worse than Flash. Jaedong hasn't actually beaten any top-tier players yet and lost a few bad games to lower-tier players. 6. Calm - I think I underrated his achievements, but I don't get the feeling that he belongs above Flash and Jaedong. So he goes just right under them. Maybe between Flash and Jaedong would work if you really want to be harsh on one of them. 7/8. Shine/Hydra - Both good players who really need no introduction. I just don't know which one belongs higher, but Hydra has a league+higher ELO so maybe him. 9. great - pretty decent achievements this time around. 10. Fantasy - I'd consider Baby here, but Fantasy is better in leagues, so I think he still deserves a spot. CBNC: Modesty, Baby, Light, Snow Honorable Mentions: Xellos, Anytime.
Kal could definitely win OSL. His PvP is really strong and Stork's we can't be sure of just yet. I wouldn't be surprised if JD won MSL, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't. Flash and Light are both out, but there are other dangerous opponents... Stork, Bisu, and I'll even take a flier on Hydra and list him as one.
Lightwip is correct for his 10 people, I'd just order 4-10 differently. Calm cannot be overlooked. He lost to JD in the OSL, but JD losing to Hogil and being eliminated more than makes up for that. Also Fantasy just needs play right (and avoid Stork) to be an OSL champion very soon. Shine has no such possibility for many months and thus needs to be lower. Flash can be ahead of some single league players because of his more dominating SPL record than Shine (although Shine's is still quite good).
Snow and/or Midas sneaking into the top 10 would be welcome too. They could be argued over Shine, but I'm not sure they can knock out the crown prince himself.
I don't see why Shine has to stay on the ranking. Hes out of both leagues and lost quite a lot after his monster streak. I would rather see Modesty or Hyuk or someone else still in the individual league
Stork systematically dismantled GoRush, but considering his opponent it's not as comparatively impressive as some others. But he's in both leagues. Unlike Kal, he is not doing poorly in SPL. Unlike Calm, we the fans have confidence in him. If Bisu was in both leagues there is no doubt he would be #1. But his loss to Shine in the Ro36 still resonates as signs of poor decision making. For Stork, we can say he shouldn't have had his shuttle sniped by RorO. There's a lot more to be said for Bisu against Shine. He redeemed himself masterfully, but it is too late for the OSL and thus he lacks the power to be #1.
On December 31 2010 10:48 night terrors wrote: Hi guys. Ive been out for holidays and have checked only the results involving Beesuit. What did Stork pull off this past week that was so amazing?
Its not really what he did was amazing its mostly like Flash out of OSL and MSL while Jaedong is out of OSL by scrubs. Stork on the other hand had an amazing performance that is still in both leagues and doing well in PL. Stork's PvT is untouchable by any other Terran at this point I would somewhat favor him against Flash. And his PvZ is amazing as well, I would suggest you to watch Stork vs GoRush. At this point, Stork is the most favorite player to win the OSL.
Shine should be out of the PR next month honestly. No leagues and really falling apart to the end of the month. He had a good streak at the start but he's just lost too much steam. Maybe in the #10 spot if there's no one else but certainly not higher than that.
While I'm fine with Bisu taking the #2 spot (he looked well prepared last night, and if he continues to take his games as seriously as that he has a good shot at being the first person with 4 MSL golds), I have to make the argument that if Flash can maintain a spot on the PR, especially one around 5-6, just on history and ProLeague alone then Jaedong should keep his #2 spot. After all he was also a dual finalist last season and has only really lost series to God-mode Flash. He's looked shaky and lost to Bisu, so that counts against him but they are both in the MSL, 2-0 in their groups, and have similar PL records for December too (JD 7-3, Bisu 6-2). Just saying that Bisu shouldn't be considered a lock for #2 unless you are willing to drop Flash way down to around 8 or lower.
It is quite fascinating to see how most people's PR rankings work. For me, its really hard to place Stork appropriately against top Toss players.
He has been vastly superior to most players over the last few months. No sense arguing that. I'd favor him over most if not every top Zerg and Terran player at the moment. The crux being, however, that once he faces off against a top Toss player, he can't win. His current PvP condition is abysmal, and has been for some time. Taking a quick glance at TLPD confirms that. Stork has gone 11-15 (42%) over the course of 2010. The odds are against him every time. Bisu, Kal, Best, Pure, Free, Horang2, etc. I'd favor every one of them over Stork in a PvP. I'd say the odds get substantially better for Stork in a bo3, but they're still not quite in his favor. That makes rankings hard, for me at least, because I'm still willing to place Stork over the other top two Toss players (Kal/Bisu) due to this month, but were he to play them in a set, I'd be more inclined to put my vote of confidence in Bisu or Kal.
Come to think of it, maybe that makes it easier? There are so few Toss players in leagues, he should go really deep, right? But then there is the possibility Stork and Kal will both win tonight, and then there is the match between Bisu in the MSL. That's just stinky. Two HUGE hurdles for our Dinotoss to overcome. Talk about a rock and a hard place... Just some food for thought.
Hopefully this isn't just a flash in the pan for Stork. Dinotoss fighting!!
The problem is, who would you rate over Stork? Bisu? Maybe, but Stork has to be rewarded for making it into both leagues when Bisu couldn't. Flash is probably the strongest player, but his results this month have benched him for the entire rest of the season (in Starleague, I mean) against competition that, while maybe not as horrible as some people say, was definitely not very stiff. And Jaedong pretty much has to be rated under Bisu, at least in my mind.
This month... yeah, it's a really hard to rate people. Made a little extra hard given the last PR came out mid December. I usually like to look at the previous two+ months and use that to fill in missing blanks, draw what I feel are more accurate conclusions about the results of the current month (that is, it provides context for the results of the current month), but I feel a little more hesitant to reach back so far this time, partly because this past month alone produced so much data, but mostly because I'd feel a little silly eating up too many results from before what is technically the current PR period (which is about half a month this time...)
Unintentionally (or not) I listed them in approximately the order I'd like to see....
Stork is our "obvious" #1 candidate, but his PvZ while solidly at #2 is less than perfect and his PvP form is in question. I'd comment that Stork has had probably the best season of anyone so far, and was a semifinalist last season, so I feel confident in him at #1.
Bisu arguably had a better month (his OSL loss to Shine being last month, strictly speaking) and percentage-wise may be having a better season, although he's out of OSL.
Kal is... a bit difficult. On one hand, he's been doing well when it counts. 2-1 in OSL, 2-1 in MSL, 2-1 in ace matches all in December. But he's 8-9 overall... which means he has trouble winning when it doesn't matter as much? *scratches head* He also sports a good record against other players on the PR, 4-3 I believe? He had the second toughest matchlist (behind Sea, who had the hardest and got demolished by it prison sex style), but he actually did better against top players than scrubs. He's in both leagues and having a solid season. Where to place him is a bit of a matter of how much you hold the losses against him, but I'm solidly in favor of keeping him top 4.
Calm... suddenly having a resurgence, the final player in both leagues, but the more I think about it the more I'm concerned that he's lost all his games against tough competition. All of them. Hydra, JD, Light. Admittedly they are all steamrolling Zergs, but still. His best win was Free, who is slumping hard. After that his next best win was Hogil, who isn't very good. We need to see more games against top players to make a fair assessment.
Flash I already commented on.
JD is... also having some difficulty against tough competition, and only in one league and in some of his games he is showing poor decision making not typically associated with the name Jaedong. I keep trying to think of them as flukes because I don't think the Tyrant is done yet, but Bisu was an eye opener.
Hydra actually had statistically the best month of anyone, but his only 2 losses were in OSL. Admittedly Modesty and Fantasy aren't bad losses for a Zerg (give Modesty credit on his ZvZ at least, #4 by ELO). I've been tempted to give him a really high rating, but now that I think of it, this is still too soon. Hydra only started gaining momentum this season. He still has something to prove and he has to prove it against S-class competition.
Shine... should not be underrated. Too many people think of him as an all-in cheeser. To those of you thinking like this, I'd advise you to watch Shine vs Jangbi. It was Jangbi who tried to do a timing attack and Shine simultaneously defended and sniped Jangbi's cannons and critical first HT only to follow up with the infamous hydra bust... in a position of economic advantage. Shine is arguably the best early-midgame player in all of progaming. But he wasn't able to follow through on his momentum. Like Flash, his season is over.
Great deserves a PR spot for his strong performance this month, but Great tends to do this kind of thing early on in the season. I expect him to peter out. I also think he's an idiot for forcing ling/ultra/defiler vs mech. Brilliant defiler usage though.
Those are 9 names. The 10th spot is looking hard to place precisely. I want to put Snow there, but his PvZ is totally uninspiring. Almost as bad as Best. Check that, worse than Best by ELO. That's pretty bad. But his PvT is as strong as ever and his PvP has been coming along nicely lately, which allowed him to advance in MSL.
Other CBNC?
Fantasy. I like him, but I don't see why so many other people want to put him in the top 10. Look, from Dec. 8 to today, Fantasy has dropped 103 points of ELO. Maybe he will win some back tonight, I don't know, but that's a tremendous drop.
Baby. 5-1 in December, slowly coming back into the picture, slowly approaching 2200 ELO again. Concerns: can't seem to win when it counts, very streaky. Fragile emotional state?
Modesty. Damn it, I still have a hard time thinking of him as anything but a ZvZ sniper.
Light... let's face it, if Stork had beaten Roro, then Light would likely have advanced in MSL. Bad luck that Light had to face Stork twice. Concern: TvP still looks shaky. Very shaky.
Shout Outs?
ACE winning so many proleague matches... with one-sided domination. Especially ggaemo deserves credit for Ace's success. Ironic considering how much he sucked on OZ.
I pretty much agree with Mortality. The only possible point of disagreement I could have is Calm's placement, because I have a hard time thinking of him as good. But as it was mentioned many times, he gets enough results to win in both leagues, albeit against really easy opponents(Hiya, Hogil, JD who he lost to, double Jaehoon, and Hydra who he lost to. Not the most inspiring performance). Maybe his place is good, maybe he should be between JD and Flash because I'm not convinced that his SL runs are anything but a fluke. Nevertheless, results are results. I think Modesty or Fantasy for #10. But Fantasy pretty much failed where it really counts, so I'd give the nod to Modesty. As for shoutouts, ggaemo for pretty much being ACE MVP, Xellos for a few comeback wins, and Anytime for his impressive performance on Oz. ForGG should get one for his retirement under the most peculiar of circumstances.
On December 31 2010 17:21 Lightwip wrote: I pretty much agree with Mortality. The only possible point of disagreement I could have is Calm's placement, because I have a hard time thinking of him as good. But as it was mentioned many times, he gets enough results to win in both leagues, albeit against really easy opponents(Hiya, Hogil, JD who he lost to, double Jaehoon, and Hydra who he lost to. Not the most inspiring performance). Maybe his place is good, maybe he should be between JD and Flash because I'm not convinced that his SL runs are anything but a fluke. Nevertheless, results are results. I think Modesty or Fantasy for #10. But Fantasy pretty much failed where it really counts, so I'd give the nod to Modesty. As for shoutouts, ggaemo for pretty much being ACE MVP, Xellos for a few comeback wins, and Anytime for his impressive performance on Oz. ForGG should get one for his retirement under the most peculiar of circumstances.
I'm concerned with Calm that he's had an easy ride and that when push comes to shove he won't be able to hack it. But I also don't know how much I want to hold a relatively easy roster against him. He advanced further than Flash in both leagues and his opponents were not really any easier.
I'v read some guys posting they're own rankings here, with flash down to 5-6 and stork 1 ? what the heck ? who could put stork nr1 with 6 game loss streak. With flash only losing a single game this month, he's looking strong as hell too. FLASH FLASH FLASH yay yay yeaah!
EPT
BaBy
Modesty
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