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A Classy Game of Mafia - Page 2

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 01:05 GMT
#2628
On March 06 2024 09:53 Oatsmaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2024 09:36 Jealous wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:26 Oatsmaster wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:23 Jealous wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:17 Oatsmaster wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:14 Jealous wrote:
So, here is what I found in Koshi's filter re: Trfel.
+ Show Spoiler [Koshi x Trfel] +
On March 05 2024 06:36 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 04:04 Vivax wrote:
So maybe I just have to accept the fact that if rayn and iamp are actually town like I had in mind earlier, they prefer to annoy the hell out of you instead of actually finding scum and cause a massive unhelpful distraction that makes me reconsider their alignments.

Either way, not helpful.

I still want to kill Trfel. That's where my head is at.
Going to hedge on sandro.
VE/MZ worth looking into more deeply imo.

But Trfel first. I'm not going to repeat the mistake of trying to kill multples.

i am 100% with you. rayn marv tfrel can die.
We shouldn't do tfrel first.

rayn or marv. Let's go big.


On March 05 2024 08:01 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 05:31 CopCake wrote:
On March 05 2024 05:29 Koshi wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:40 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:34 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:31 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:28 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:25 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:24 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:19 Trfel wrote:
[quote]Seems like an easy way to avoid the responsibility of the results of said lynch, no?

And I don't understand why saying pregame that you would vote for Palmar and then changing your mind is a reason we should make you mayor?

I was making a joke about Vivax saying he was going to autovote Palmar pregame and then immediately changed his mind.

Imo the Mayor KP is town KP, not a oneshot Day vig. It's not about avoiding responsibility it's about giving the town a chance to pull a 2for1 on D1.

Actually I'll cement that point, if I'm not going to win the mayor vote at the end of the day, I'm not going to vote for someone who hasn't also pledged to have the town decide the lynch.
I don't think the second wagon is a "town lynch" at all. In fact there's a decent likelihood that the second wagon would be pushed by mafia, no?

That's assuming the first lynch is scum which D1 imo is a crap shoot, it's just as likely to be town pushed by mafia and the runner up is the scum, hence the double tap. TL towns are like barely 50% for D1 scum lynches iirc.
You're still ignoring the possibility that both are town. My point is, just because "town" votes for something doesn't make it the best play. I'm not saying you have to go for a hero play or something, but just that automatically lynching the top two instead of the top one isn't necessarily a good idea.

If both are town then we'll have played a colossally trash D1 and I wouldn't be trusting my own read anymore than I trust any other individual on D1. There's something to be said for wisdom of the crowds.
There's almost nothing to be said for wisdom of the crowds, that's the point. It's 16 vs 5, the whole point is that wisdom of the crowds is really ineffective, that's how the game works.

The problem with this entire conversation is that Tfrel looks smart and MZ bad.
But it is the only thing Tfrel does in this entire timespan.
Look smart.
But he isn't doing anything that helps town find mafia.

I don't like it at all.


I think this is the second? comment about it, first being my rayn if I remember correctly.

Why the "Trfl looks smart" a bad thing?

Last game here, he was on fire and caught all the mafia team.

If you feel like that, pressure him to give you a list of players.



Because he looks smart on a set-up topic. As mafia it is harder to look good doing actual scumhunting, seeing somebody play sub optimal in a set-up way and make a conversation about that is way easier. You know you have the upper ground.
During that conversation he doesn't make any other posts interrogating people or does he try to solve the game. He is content to just talk setup with somebody.


On March 05 2024 10:03 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 09:52 JacobStrangelove wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:19 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:14 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
hbd Trfel,

I'm thinking of running for mayor, we haven't had mayor elections in a looong time (or I haven't played in a game with mayor elections in a long time).
May I ask, why should we vote for you as mayor?

Well first off I didn't say pregame I'd vote for Palmar and then change my mind once the game started.

Secondly I don't think I've ever been a mayor before.

Thirdly I pledge to make my personal lynch a town lynch and will select whoever is the second in votes at the end of the day.
Seems like an easy way to avoid the responsibility of the results of said lynch, no?

And I don't understand why saying pregame that you would vote for Palmar and then changing your mind is a reason we should make you mayor?


I liked this, no fluff beyond the first post straight into it with two questions.

On March 04 2024 12:25 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:24 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:19 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:14 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
hbd Trfel,

I'm thinking of running for mayor, we haven't had mayor elections in a looong time (or I haven't played in a game with mayor elections in a long time).
May I ask, why should we vote for you as mayor?

Well first off I didn't say pregame I'd vote for Palmar and then change my mind once the game started.

Secondly I don't think I've ever been a mayor before.

Thirdly I pledge to make my personal lynch a town lynch and will select whoever is the second in votes at the end of the day.
Seems like an easy way to avoid the responsibility of the results of said lynch, no?

And I don't understand why saying pregame that you would vote for Palmar and then changing your mind is a reason we should make you mayor?

I was making a joke about Vivax saying he was going to autovote Palmar pregame and then immediately changed his mind.

Imo the Mayor KP is town KP, not a oneshot Day vig. It's not about avoiding responsibility it's about giving the town a chance to pull a 2for1 on D1.

Actually I'll cement that point, if I'm not going to win the mayor vote at the end of the day, I'm not going to vote for someone who hasn't also pledged to have the town decide the lynch.
I don't think the second wagon is a "town lynch" at all. In fact there's a decent likelihood that the second wagon would be pushed by mafia, no?


I also agreed with this top two wagons has basically always been town in games i've played. basically his entire first page filter seems town ish this is where it kinda goes ary.

On March 04 2024 13:20 Trfel wrote:
I'm actually going to double down and say that I think Meapak_Ziphh is town. Thus, I'm very surprised that he seems to be your top scumread, DarthPunk.


but in the sense doubling down on calling someone town doesn't seem like mafia play. It's ironically too suspicious. Like not having scum reads and seeing everyone as town is kinda how mafia is (despite it being the basis of my entire town play)

Admitedly his second page of his filter peters out a bit he's mostly commeting on other people in mild ways but to me it seems the entire reason people would even consider him mafia is based on past play which I've never experienced. I'm not seeing anything obviously jump out at me as being mafia play.

For me, everything tfrel says to MZ is just plain logic. He is right that killing the second wagon is easy, he is right that the second wagon is often town. He is having this safe conversation with MZ, who he will eventually not scumread. II feel tfrel is showing activity on a safe topic as mafia. While town!tfrel would be more likely to be out there finding mafia and sticking his neck out.

He was more townie for me in the previous game because he was more involved, more in the spotlight. This game he isn't doing that, and I don't like that.


On March 05 2024 20:23 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 02:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Oatsmaster - probs town
DarthPunk - townish
Vivax - town
sandroba - town
Trfel - unsure, seems slightly off for me from town game
marvellosity - town
Jealous - not posted
Meapak_Ziphh - townish
Palmar - not posted
justanothertownie - not posted
die_meatbaby - town
CopCake - null, maybe teeny tiny bit townish perhaps?
JacobStrangelove - weird, cant make a read on him
Hapahauli - not posted
Iamperfection - town
Koshi - meh, useless
ToTheStars - would like to see more, read on trfel sounds townish
VisceraEyes - scummy, useless
Rels - useless
Alakaslam - town

This is so bad. Tfrel asked rayn many questions. rayn sheepingly answered them without counter pressure between the "to clean comment" and this list.
I don't buy that he would be this lazy as town.
And VE. Mafia favorite misslynch of choice. Of course.


On March 05 2024 21:30 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 11:13 sandroba wrote:
On March 05 2024 10:58 DarthPunk wrote:
On March 05 2024 10:54 sandroba wrote:
I feel like it's harder to argue against vivax mayor as mafia. Rels and palmar both entered the thread with that mindset. Pretty much ignored most of what happened for most of the thread but making sure they say what they were supposed to say as town about the vivax claim as soon as possible.
There are obviously town reasons to mayor vivax, but there is some reluctance I expect from townies. I think the over-eagerness to jump on the vivax train right away points to mafia.


Hard disagree. I find people who just accept it for what it is and make the correct play in regards to him is townie.

The scummy thing is talking around in circles about how shit vivax’s claim was, that he might not be town or if he is he is not confirmed

It’s a huge waste of time and shits up the thread and is also incredibly easy content to fake.

I found palmars approach to the situation very townie for example

Are you still lock town on trfel btw?

Didn't see much of people saying he might not be town. Shitting up the thread discussing the claim being bad I agree, CopCake is the main person I saw driving the discussion back to that.
I think saying he is prob town and prob not the best mayor, at least initially is the reaction I would expect from townies. Remember, even though scum might not want something, it's hard to actually push something when you think it would be obvious anti-town. Scum wants to hide and push things in a subtle way.
Not locked town on trfel since he hasn't been very active, but wouldn't lynch him d1 in a million years. What he has posted so far after the initial setup-focused posts looked super townie to me.

I really really really don't see that.
Last game I was so sure he was town.
What is he doing here? Everytime he gets pressured he moves away from it. Slam asks him about Oats. He gives a good answer but it lacks conviction. It looks way more as a mafia seeing Town!Oats be inquisitive than a townie figuring out Town!Oats is inquisitive.
Slam then pressures on and while replying to somebody else he @slam and disengages with him.

This can't be the same Tfrel as last game? You went 4 days with him. Under pressure by marv/DP/rayn iirc. This looks the same to you? I should follow your lead on him but it seems impossible.


---

Tangentially related:
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=96#1906


So, if I understood correctly, in summary Trfel is scum according to Koshi because:

1. He focused on dissecting a set-up/meta topic instead of actually doing scumhunting when talking to MZ.
2. A potential rayn x Trfel team based on their exchange.
3. Inconsistency between their behavior in this game and the previous game. "Underwhelming."

Okay, I can buy it. Nothing too solid on anyone else anyway and it's D1. Still would have preferred rayn or Slam IMO, but there is plenty of scum out there and no traction on either of those, so Trfel it can be. Going to look at Trfel's filter next and evaluate further.

Can someone tell me stuff about JAT while I do that? Again, I really don't see how a scum!JAT puts their neck on the line against the Vivax for mayor campaign, but maybe I'm just dumb.

What happened to your cake read?

I still have it but I am less convinced about CopCake than rayn because I don't recall her seeming outright scummy, just not great/unproductive townie with a potentially questionable out-of-game statement, and though I struggle to understand CopCake sometimes, she's still miles ahead of Alakaslam in that department for me. So, she is the least lynchable of those three in my book ATM.

You literally pointed out scummy things in your list post and now you are backtracking to “not Great unproductive townie”??

Double-checked to make sure I wasn't having a stroke, here is what I said again just for convenience:

13) CopCake - I don’t know if it’s because I have a hard time following their mindset/writing, or because of their self-professed “style”, but I just did not find any of their Day 1 play to be all that productive.
+ Show Spoiler [Stuff] +
On March 05 2024 03:57 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 03:55 Vivax wrote:
On March 05 2024 03:45 CopCake wrote:
On March 05 2024 03:40 die_meatbaby wrote:
On March 05 2024 03:34 CopCake wrote:
On March 05 2024 03:28 Vivax wrote:
I'm bothered by rayn's reaction here tbh


I dont know if it is relevant but he was laughing hard in the other room.


that makes him look scum. I loved beeing mafia in the last game because doing random shit like offering my life for HF who claimed blue and provoke other Townies is fun as hell. As Town I take it way more seriously. But maybe thats just me


rayn loves to be more town than mafia.

He has rolled mafia so many times that he is tired of that.

I also prefer more mafia than town unless I get to be mafia three times in a row or so.


This feels like the awkward moment where you need to make up for possibly exposing him as scum.

Vivax, take a break please and come back. Because I think you know this can’t make sense.

You’re just annoyed at the game and people in it and it leads to posts like this.

^ Don’t want to beat it to death but I did not like these CopCake posts, I did like the Vivax and marv posts here.

On March 05 2024 04:42 sandroba wrote:
Why are you trying to keep this useless trash nai discussion going CopCake?

^ My thoughts exactly.


I think my messaging has been pretty consistent here.

??? Your spoilered part specifically calls out posts you think are scummy

Yea, I didn't like them, hence not great/unproductive, which is almost exactly what I wrote in the post you're dissecting? I feel like you're manufacturing a semantics issue when there really isn't one. The fact remains that - before I was reminded that Alakaslam role-claimed cop - I thought both him and rayn would have been better lynches than CopCake. I don't see any contradictions in anything I've said.

How about you, who do you think are scum? What are your reads atm?
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 01:08 GMT
#2635
On March 06 2024 09:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I'm almost ready to leave work and will read the rest of what I missed but I still would love a summary on why trfel/why jat. The amount of catching up I have is gonna take a while.

Dove into Koshi's filter at his suggestion for "Why Trfel?":
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=130#2589

DP brought up this comment chain for "Why JAT?" and a little bit of additional discussion added:
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=131#2609
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 01:14 GMT
#2638
On March 06 2024 10:08 Oatsmaster wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2024 10:05 Jealous wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:53 Oatsmaster wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:36 Jealous wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:26 Oatsmaster wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:23 Jealous wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:17 Oatsmaster wrote:
On March 06 2024 09:14 Jealous wrote:
So, here is what I found in Koshi's filter re: Trfel.
+ Show Spoiler [Koshi x Trfel] +
On March 05 2024 06:36 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 04:04 Vivax wrote:
So maybe I just have to accept the fact that if rayn and iamp are actually town like I had in mind earlier, they prefer to annoy the hell out of you instead of actually finding scum and cause a massive unhelpful distraction that makes me reconsider their alignments.

Either way, not helpful.

I still want to kill Trfel. That's where my head is at.
Going to hedge on sandro.
VE/MZ worth looking into more deeply imo.

But Trfel first. I'm not going to repeat the mistake of trying to kill multples.

i am 100% with you. rayn marv tfrel can die.
We shouldn't do tfrel first.

rayn or marv. Let's go big.


On March 05 2024 08:01 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 05:31 CopCake wrote:
On March 05 2024 05:29 Koshi wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:40 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:34 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:31 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:28 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:25 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:24 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:19 Trfel wrote:
[quote]Seems like an easy way to avoid the responsibility of the results of said lynch, no?

And I don't understand why saying pregame that you would vote for Palmar and then changing your mind is a reason we should make you mayor?

I was making a joke about Vivax saying he was going to autovote Palmar pregame and then immediately changed his mind.

Imo the Mayor KP is town KP, not a oneshot Day vig. It's not about avoiding responsibility it's about giving the town a chance to pull a 2for1 on D1.

Actually I'll cement that point, if I'm not going to win the mayor vote at the end of the day, I'm not going to vote for someone who hasn't also pledged to have the town decide the lynch.
I don't think the second wagon is a "town lynch" at all. In fact there's a decent likelihood that the second wagon would be pushed by mafia, no?

That's assuming the first lynch is scum which D1 imo is a crap shoot, it's just as likely to be town pushed by mafia and the runner up is the scum, hence the double tap. TL towns are like barely 50% for D1 scum lynches iirc.
You're still ignoring the possibility that both are town. My point is, just because "town" votes for something doesn't make it the best play. I'm not saying you have to go for a hero play or something, but just that automatically lynching the top two instead of the top one isn't necessarily a good idea.

If both are town then we'll have played a colossally trash D1 and I wouldn't be trusting my own read anymore than I trust any other individual on D1. There's something to be said for wisdom of the crowds.
There's almost nothing to be said for wisdom of the crowds, that's the point. It's 16 vs 5, the whole point is that wisdom of the crowds is really ineffective, that's how the game works.

The problem with this entire conversation is that Tfrel looks smart and MZ bad.
But it is the only thing Tfrel does in this entire timespan.
Look smart.
But he isn't doing anything that helps town find mafia.

I don't like it at all.


I think this is the second? comment about it, first being my rayn if I remember correctly.

Why the "Trfl looks smart" a bad thing?

Last game here, he was on fire and caught all the mafia team.

If you feel like that, pressure him to give you a list of players.



Because he looks smart on a set-up topic. As mafia it is harder to look good doing actual scumhunting, seeing somebody play sub optimal in a set-up way and make a conversation about that is way easier. You know you have the upper ground.
During that conversation he doesn't make any other posts interrogating people or does he try to solve the game. He is content to just talk setup with somebody.


On March 05 2024 10:03 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 09:52 JacobStrangelove wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:19 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:14 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
hbd Trfel,

I'm thinking of running for mayor, we haven't had mayor elections in a looong time (or I haven't played in a game with mayor elections in a long time).
May I ask, why should we vote for you as mayor?

Well first off I didn't say pregame I'd vote for Palmar and then change my mind once the game started.

Secondly I don't think I've ever been a mayor before.

Thirdly I pledge to make my personal lynch a town lynch and will select whoever is the second in votes at the end of the day.
Seems like an easy way to avoid the responsibility of the results of said lynch, no?

And I don't understand why saying pregame that you would vote for Palmar and then changing your mind is a reason we should make you mayor?


I liked this, no fluff beyond the first post straight into it with two questions.

On March 04 2024 12:25 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:24 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:19 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:14 Trfel wrote:
On March 04 2024 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
hbd Trfel,

I'm thinking of running for mayor, we haven't had mayor elections in a looong time (or I haven't played in a game with mayor elections in a long time).
May I ask, why should we vote for you as mayor?

Well first off I didn't say pregame I'd vote for Palmar and then change my mind once the game started.

Secondly I don't think I've ever been a mayor before.

Thirdly I pledge to make my personal lynch a town lynch and will select whoever is the second in votes at the end of the day.
Seems like an easy way to avoid the responsibility of the results of said lynch, no?

And I don't understand why saying pregame that you would vote for Palmar and then changing your mind is a reason we should make you mayor?

I was making a joke about Vivax saying he was going to autovote Palmar pregame and then immediately changed his mind.

Imo the Mayor KP is town KP, not a oneshot Day vig. It's not about avoiding responsibility it's about giving the town a chance to pull a 2for1 on D1.

Actually I'll cement that point, if I'm not going to win the mayor vote at the end of the day, I'm not going to vote for someone who hasn't also pledged to have the town decide the lynch.
I don't think the second wagon is a "town lynch" at all. In fact there's a decent likelihood that the second wagon would be pushed by mafia, no?


I also agreed with this top two wagons has basically always been town in games i've played. basically his entire first page filter seems town ish this is where it kinda goes ary.

On March 04 2024 13:20 Trfel wrote:
I'm actually going to double down and say that I think Meapak_Ziphh is town. Thus, I'm very surprised that he seems to be your top scumread, DarthPunk.


but in the sense doubling down on calling someone town doesn't seem like mafia play. It's ironically too suspicious. Like not having scum reads and seeing everyone as town is kinda how mafia is (despite it being the basis of my entire town play)

Admitedly his second page of his filter peters out a bit he's mostly commeting on other people in mild ways but to me it seems the entire reason people would even consider him mafia is based on past play which I've never experienced. I'm not seeing anything obviously jump out at me as being mafia play.

For me, everything tfrel says to MZ is just plain logic. He is right that killing the second wagon is easy, he is right that the second wagon is often town. He is having this safe conversation with MZ, who he will eventually not scumread. II feel tfrel is showing activity on a safe topic as mafia. While town!tfrel would be more likely to be out there finding mafia and sticking his neck out.

He was more townie for me in the previous game because he was more involved, more in the spotlight. This game he isn't doing that, and I don't like that.


On March 05 2024 20:23 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 02:46 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Oatsmaster - probs town
DarthPunk - townish
Vivax - town
sandroba - town
Trfel - unsure, seems slightly off for me from town game
marvellosity - town
Jealous - not posted
Meapak_Ziphh - townish
Palmar - not posted
justanothertownie - not posted
die_meatbaby - town
CopCake - null, maybe teeny tiny bit townish perhaps?
JacobStrangelove - weird, cant make a read on him
Hapahauli - not posted
Iamperfection - town
Koshi - meh, useless
ToTheStars - would like to see more, read on trfel sounds townish
VisceraEyes - scummy, useless
Rels - useless
Alakaslam - town

This is so bad. Tfrel asked rayn many questions. rayn sheepingly answered them without counter pressure between the "to clean comment" and this list.
I don't buy that he would be this lazy as town.
And VE. Mafia favorite misslynch of choice. Of course.


On March 05 2024 21:30 Koshi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 11:13 sandroba wrote:
On March 05 2024 10:58 DarthPunk wrote:
On March 05 2024 10:54 sandroba wrote:
I feel like it's harder to argue against vivax mayor as mafia. Rels and palmar both entered the thread with that mindset. Pretty much ignored most of what happened for most of the thread but making sure they say what they were supposed to say as town about the vivax claim as soon as possible.
There are obviously town reasons to mayor vivax, but there is some reluctance I expect from townies. I think the over-eagerness to jump on the vivax train right away points to mafia.


Hard disagree. I find people who just accept it for what it is and make the correct play in regards to him is townie.

The scummy thing is talking around in circles about how shit vivax’s claim was, that he might not be town or if he is he is not confirmed

It’s a huge waste of time and shits up the thread and is also incredibly easy content to fake.

I found palmars approach to the situation very townie for example

Are you still lock town on trfel btw?

Didn't see much of people saying he might not be town. Shitting up the thread discussing the claim being bad I agree, CopCake is the main person I saw driving the discussion back to that.
I think saying he is prob town and prob not the best mayor, at least initially is the reaction I would expect from townies. Remember, even though scum might not want something, it's hard to actually push something when you think it would be obvious anti-town. Scum wants to hide and push things in a subtle way.
Not locked town on trfel since he hasn't been very active, but wouldn't lynch him d1 in a million years. What he has posted so far after the initial setup-focused posts looked super townie to me.

I really really really don't see that.
Last game I was so sure he was town.
What is he doing here? Everytime he gets pressured he moves away from it. Slam asks him about Oats. He gives a good answer but it lacks conviction. It looks way more as a mafia seeing Town!Oats be inquisitive than a townie figuring out Town!Oats is inquisitive.
Slam then pressures on and while replying to somebody else he @slam and disengages with him.

This can't be the same Tfrel as last game? You went 4 days with him. Under pressure by marv/DP/rayn iirc. This looks the same to you? I should follow your lead on him but it seems impossible.


---

Tangentially related:
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=96#1906


So, if I understood correctly, in summary Trfel is scum according to Koshi because:

1. He focused on dissecting a set-up/meta topic instead of actually doing scumhunting when talking to MZ.
2. A potential rayn x Trfel team based on their exchange.
3. Inconsistency between their behavior in this game and the previous game. "Underwhelming."

Okay, I can buy it. Nothing too solid on anyone else anyway and it's D1. Still would have preferred rayn or Slam IMO, but there is plenty of scum out there and no traction on either of those, so Trfel it can be. Going to look at Trfel's filter next and evaluate further.

Can someone tell me stuff about JAT while I do that? Again, I really don't see how a scum!JAT puts their neck on the line against the Vivax for mayor campaign, but maybe I'm just dumb.

What happened to your cake read?

I still have it but I am less convinced about CopCake than rayn because I don't recall her seeming outright scummy, just not great/unproductive townie with a potentially questionable out-of-game statement, and though I struggle to understand CopCake sometimes, she's still miles ahead of Alakaslam in that department for me. So, she is the least lynchable of those three in my book ATM.

You literally pointed out scummy things in your list post and now you are backtracking to “not Great unproductive townie”??

Double-checked to make sure I wasn't having a stroke, here is what I said again just for convenience:

13) CopCake - I don’t know if it’s because I have a hard time following their mindset/writing, or because of their self-professed “style”, but I just did not find any of their Day 1 play to be all that productive.
+ Show Spoiler [Stuff] +
On March 05 2024 03:57 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 05 2024 03:55 Vivax wrote:
On March 05 2024 03:45 CopCake wrote:
On March 05 2024 03:40 die_meatbaby wrote:
On March 05 2024 03:34 CopCake wrote:
On March 05 2024 03:28 Vivax wrote:
I'm bothered by rayn's reaction here tbh


I dont know if it is relevant but he was laughing hard in the other room.


that makes him look scum. I loved beeing mafia in the last game because doing random shit like offering my life for HF who claimed blue and provoke other Townies is fun as hell. As Town I take it way more seriously. But maybe thats just me


rayn loves to be more town than mafia.

He has rolled mafia so many times that he is tired of that.

I also prefer more mafia than town unless I get to be mafia three times in a row or so.


This feels like the awkward moment where you need to make up for possibly exposing him as scum.

Vivax, take a break please and come back. Because I think you know this can’t make sense.

You’re just annoyed at the game and people in it and it leads to posts like this.

^ Don’t want to beat it to death but I did not like these CopCake posts, I did like the Vivax and marv posts here.

On March 05 2024 04:42 sandroba wrote:
Why are you trying to keep this useless trash nai discussion going CopCake?

^ My thoughts exactly.


I think my messaging has been pretty consistent here.

??? Your spoilered part specifically calls out posts you think are scummy

Yea, I didn't like them, hence not great/unproductive, which is almost exactly what I wrote in the post you're dissecting? I feel like you're manufacturing a semantics issue when there really isn't one. The fact remains that - before I was reminded that Alakaslam role-claimed cop - I thought both him and rayn would have been better lynches than CopCake. I don't see any contradictions in anything I've said.

How about you, who do you think are scum? What are your reads atm?

You fully colored copcakes name but only half colored slams name.
What you described in your list post isn’t “unproductive” it’s scummy. Like idk why you are trying to portray differently now but that’s not how your initial post was like.

Idk maybe read my filter?

Yea, because I find Alakaslam harder to read, which inherently means I can't be certain of his alignment but I can be certain that I don't think it helps town to be the way he is and that's why if I had to pick, I'd lynch him over CopCake. At least I can understand CopCake more often.

To put it another way, if someone posts like Race Bannon - basically unintelligible gibberish - it's not really possible to have a strong scum read on them, but you can definitely feel like the game would be better off without them and make it easier to figure out, I guess? That's my thinking.

But, this is all frankly irrelevant now that I have been reminded that Alakaslam role-claimed cop. Would be foolish to lynch him D1 IMO, and again, trains aren't there anyway.

Re: filter, okay, will do.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 01:30 GMT
#2648
Looked through Trfel's posts, things to note:

1. A. Questions DP's scum!Oatsmaster line of thinking re: discussing the set-up/making a mistake in interpretation thereof.
B. Further defense here.

2. Doubles down on MZ as town.

3. A. Likes DMB's posts about Vivax. Read iamp as most likely scum.
B. Agrees with CopCake that DMB is town.

4. Reads CopCake as town.

5. Says they don't have time to play, are voting Vivax and Palmar.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 01:54 GMT
#2688
I don't want to misrep Oats so I will be limiting to what I consider reads to being their "votes" in this thread and if they ever directly say that someone is scummy/town. Simply "I don't like this (post)" is not enough IMO. In chronological order"

+ Show Spoiler [Links] +
1. Voted to lynch CopCake.

2. A. Slam is scummy.
B. Voted to lynch Slam.

3. Vivax is scummy.

4. Voted to lynch Koshi.

5. Voted to lynch VE.

6. "Town: koshi, iamp, rayn. Mafia: VE, jacob... DMB"

7. "I do agree that either both are mafia or rayn is town, I don’t think he does that as mafia rayn to town marv"

8. "I think Palmar has been way more townie this last like 5 pages and that only seems to solidify marvs read"

9. Votes to lynch DMB.

10. Votes to lynch JAT.


So we have:

Town:
Koshi (previously scum voted)*
Iamperfection
Rayn
Palmar

NA:
DarthPunk
sandroba
Trfel
marvellosity
Jealous
Meapak_Ziphh
Hapahauli
ToTheStars
Rels
Alakaslam

Scum:
VE
Jacob
DMB
CopCake
Slam
Vivax
JAT
Koshi*


Also: "I do agree that either both [rayn and marv] are mafia or rayn is town."
[/green]

Seem right, @Oats?
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 01:56 GMT
#2690
^ Fixing:

Town:
Koshi (previously scum voted)*
Iamperfection
Rayn
Palmar


NA:
DarthPunk
sandroba
Trfel
marvellosity
Jealous
Meapak_Ziphh
Hapahauli
ToTheStars
Rels
Alakaslam

Scum:
VE
Jacob
DMB
CopCake
Slam
Vivax
JAT
Koshi*


Also: "I do agree that either both [rayn and marv] are mafia or rayn is town."
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 02:40 GMT
#2814
On March 06 2024 11:37 Trfel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2024 11:36 die_meatbaby wrote:
On March 06 2024 11:35 die_meatbaby wrote:
On March 06 2024 11:32 Trfel wrote:
Why is die_meatbaby mafia? I really didn't think she was suspicious at all, she seemed far more reasonable than last game. Would be very hesitant to suspect her.

May actually be worth taking another look at Vivax because he should know this.


I called dp mafia... I was to lazy to quote and stuff and two sentences wasn´t enough for oats and Dp. I am not happy with both wagons (both pushed by dp) and I still voted one of the two wagons But I shouldn´t because not wasting my vote makes me scummy.

and i my called people stupid that makes me more scummy
Would like to hear from other people's perspectives but this really really REALLY does not sound like mafia.

Look at Vivax/iamperfection, that's the best I have.

With Vivax claiming JK on D1 with no counter-claim, what percentage chance is there that scum!Vivax actually does that and gets away with it? If I understood the premise correctly, I expect it to be about 0%. Am I missing something?
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 03:14 GMT
#2897
On March 06 2024 12:08 die_meatbaby wrote:
thats it dp is next lynch

I'd want an updated read list from you, and from @DarthPunk, before I'd ever consider it TBH. I feel like I read him and a few others as basically super-town, like a situation where if one of them is mafia then they all have to be mafia, which just does not seem plausible from some of the most active and productive players here. By comparing your list and his, I'd be able to evaluate my own read on the situation and figure out whether your worldview makes sense to me or whether his does, and then decide accordingly.

But as of now, I don't see myself voting for a DP lynch.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 03:26 GMT
#2921
On March 06 2024 12:24 CopCake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2024 12:19 Oatsmaster wrote:
Scummy for copcake to come in here and shit on the lynch without being here


Scummy?

I spent part of the day yesterday explaining why Tfrel is a good player and why I knight deffended him.

You should know that, you were here yesterday asking me for the vivax thing.

So bad, you are not worth to playing with me.

I will be an ass like most of you and only care for what rayn,slam and marv have to say.

And VE.

And maybe jacob because he is funny.

So live in your “we might jailkeeper mayor, happa mafia gave up because of thay hur hur” illusion.

Rayn, Slam, Marv, VE and Jacob.

What a list.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 03:44 GMT
#2963
On March 06 2024 12:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:
DMB what's your read on Cake?

Jealous please tell me which game you have caught me?

https://tl.net/forum/mafia/525420-ms-paint-off-mafia
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 03:53 GMT
#2979
On March 06 2024 12:42 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2024 12:40 JacobStrangelove wrote:
On March 06 2024 12:23 DarthPunk wrote:
On March 06 2024 12:19 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
That's really frustrating. I'm curious why JS moved his vote onto Trfel after I voted for JAT.

On March 06 2024 11:54 JacobStrangelove wrote:
Huh with two moving to Jat... I'll consolodate with my more town reads on triffle also triffle not having any town reads.

unvote

vote trefl


This is not great reasoning especially when you were already voting JAT...

Like there were two wagons, it wasn't like you were Sandroba who consolidated off of DMB.


agree this looks bad.


I agree too but I don't mind looking bad at night.

Trfel (11): iamperfection, Vivax, DarthPunk, JacobStrangelove, Alakaslam, Justanothertownie, Vivax, marvellosity, Koshi, VisceraEyes, Vivax, Jealous, DarthPunk, JacobStrangelove, sandroba
Justanothertownie (6): sandroba, Palmar, DarthPunk, Vivax, DarthPunk, JacobStrangelove, Vivax, Oatsmaster, die_meatbaby, Trfel, Rels, Meapak_Ziphh, Oatsmaster


So the people on JAT when the dust settles are Palmer who is looking more town but still kinda has shade on him, meat baby which I like, Trfel which is ehh, Rels who is kinda null MZ who is slightly sus and oats which has ping ponged sus and not.

Where as the people on trfel are Iampef who is a mild town read, dp who's a town read, Vivax who's a strong town read, Sandro who's a town read, Koshi who's a town read, ve who's kinda a scum read but also known to be read as scum when town. then marv who I've gone back to neutral on and slam who's a town read. JAT is ehh same as trifle


Doesn't matter where anyone is if those both are town.

I mean, do we really think scum!sandroba jumps from JAT to DMB and then to Trfel when there was no clear threat of shennanies and thus no need to hammer Trfel? It just wouldn't make sense, or am I missing something?
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 03:55 GMT
#2980
On March 06 2024 12:50 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2024 12:44 Jealous wrote:
On March 06 2024 12:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:
DMB what's your read on Cake?

Jealous please tell me which game you have caught me?

https://tl.net/forum/mafia/525420-ms-paint-off-mafia

Okay do you think i am bussing all of my scumbuddies except for Oats since all of my mafia reads at the time are in your black column?

Sorry, gonna have to ask you to elaborate who your mafia reads are, and at which specific time/post you are talking about. I don't have a "black column" that was my analysis on Oats' filter, so I want to make sure you're thinking of the correct post.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 03:57 GMT
#2983
Probably going to call it an evening now btw, to-do for tomorrow:

1. Catch up on thread, follow up on anything worth following up on such as the previous two posts.
2. I want to take a look at DP's reads until now and make a post like the one I made for Oats and Trfel.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 03:58 GMT
#2986
On March 06 2024 12:56 raynpelikoneet wrote:
You list of reads post

So this one, got it:
https://tl.net/forum/mafia/621454-a-classy-game-of-mafia?page=124#2476

Can you remind me who your scum reads are again?
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 18:35 GMT
#3501
Catching up now, going to start with the easy stuff first then respond to rayn's question from last night ET because I think that is more interesting/involved to get into.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 18:43 GMT
#3514
On March 07 2024 00:12 marvellosity wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2024 23:41 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On March 06 2024 23:39 CopCake wrote:
On March 06 2024 23:38 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On March 06 2024 23:36 raynpelikoneet wrote:
On March 06 2024 23:34 iamperfection wrote:
Cop might just be dumb. I felt like dmb knew trfels alignment ignored me multiple times when I said the play was different. Trfel themselves admitted they were playing bad

yes i am more sure of dmb being mafia here, but cake still said:
1) vivax/dp/iamp changed the lynch from palmar (for no reason as mafia)
2) dp pocketed palmar (and palmar is not town)

it does not sit well with me. i just cant wrap my head around it...

i dont understand how she is trying to explain this now (she has), if someone can read that to me so i can understand it it would be really nice.


You just dont want to understand. 🫨

that's just wrong.
im the fucking best town player in this game with JAT even if i am wrong on you and those plebs almost lynched him.

Rayn listen to me for a moment please.

You’re doing this thing you always do where something doesn’t make logical sense to you and drawing the conclusion it must come from mafia.

I think it’s really quite unlikely CC is mafia. Her play feels quite different to when we were mafia. There I struggled to get her to do much other stuff than defend herself. Which is fair enough.

Here she has a bunch of crazy opinions and is constantly sticking her neck out. The simple explanation is she is super into the game and is thinking about things in a way you don’t grasp and doesn’t make sense to you. She’s playing like some blend of town Koshi/Vivax. Just consider it for me please

I don't want to get too in the weeds here but this is part of my frustration/desire to just lynch CopCake and call it a day. Basically, if we assume the following:

town!CopCake = Does weird RP, gets reads from tea leaves and the phases of the moon while Mercury is in Gatorade, and says stuff like "I am bad town but good mafia so that somehow makes me good for town", then I'm not really getting much out of their interactions, they are not pushing the game forward, and I don't see any reason to keep them around. This doesn't make them the scummiest, but it's just a less schizo Race Bannon.


... and...

scum!CopCake = Does weird RP, gets reads from tea leaves and the phases of the moon while Mercury is in Gatorade, and says stuff like "I am bad town but good mafia so that somehow makes me good for town", then I'm not really getting much out of their interactions, they are not pushing the game forward, and I don't see any reason to keep them around. This doesn't make them the scummiest, but it's just a less schizo Race Bannon.

So QED CopCake, even if town, is being more of a hindrance than a beneficial force.

However, I will admit I like what her posting brought out of rayn in my absence, so perhaps I am being a bit too harsh here. Then again, it feels more like rayn putting a lot of work to untangle what CopCake is saying, more so than CopCake saying good things, IMO.

TL;DR: I can be convinced to lynch vote someone else with a strong case against them, but CopCake's interactions so far make me think this might be a good lynch in general.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 18:55 GMT
#3522
On March 07 2024 00:27 iamperfection wrote:
I wanna workshop something. I felt like jealous posting was very clean and non confrontational. Very clean for someone who had a ton to catch up to too.

Generally speaking, when I have to catch up on a bunch of stuff, organizing stuff this way helps me analyze the game.

Not too much to be too confrontational about in D1 at that point. If anyone had super strong scum reads at that point besides activity/policy lynches then I'd like to know what kind of crystal globes they are using (or, maybe they are trying to deflect attention/cause a ML?). If it was D3 then that'd be a different story IMO.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 18:58 GMT
#3523
On March 07 2024 03:55 justanothertownie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 07 2024 03:43 Jealous wrote:
So QED CopCake, even if town, is being more of a hindrance than a beneficial force.

The same was true for Vivax yesterday - did you push him for it? And that is only one example.

Disagree, with the KP claim I basically had to assume he had to be town because a gambit of that level as scum just seems too insane/suicidal. So, I have to operate on the logic that Vivax is town and try to find scum instead. If things don't improve with him as mayor/"KP" long-term, then I'll have to consider abandoning my hypothesis.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 19:02 GMT
#3527
On March 06 2024 23:46 Vivax wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2024 10:30 Jealous wrote:
Looked through Trfel's posts, things to note:

1. A. Questions DP's scum!Oatsmaster line of thinking re: discussing the set-up/making a mistake in interpretation thereof.
B. Further defense here.

2. Doubles down on MZ as town.

3. A. Likes DMB's posts about Vivax. Read iamp as most likely scum.
B. Agrees with CopCake that DMB is town.

4. Reads CopCake as town.

5. Says they don't have time to play, are voting Vivax and Palmar.


Why did I townread this guy again.

This is a post with lots of surface level effort and zero value.

My thinking was that it would be good to have these laid out already in case Trfel flipped scum, or to analyze why someone might be pushing a wagon on her, though now I'm realizing it would have probably been smarter to wait until we got the results of the lynch. Town!Trfel reads are, of course, less useful. So, yea, while I think that this call-out by you is a bit harsh, I do get it.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10129 Posts
March 06 2024 19:28 GMT
#3538
On March 07 2024 02:43 justanothertownie wrote:
Trfel (11): iamperfection, Alakaslam, Justanothertownie, marvellosity, Koshi, VisceraEyes, Vivax, Jealous, DarthPunk, JacobStrangelove, sandroba

I think this wagon is overall quite towny (both claimants, marv, koshi, iamp, sandro). The only player that really seems suspicious at first glance is VE. There is probably someone else hiding in here but the people on my wagon look markedly worse on average. Which makes sense since they would probably rather be on the townie that doesn't immediately flip.

Can you explain this part, please?
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
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