EPTHey, Trfelscum, you conceding?
Epic incoming WOT once I have put some bold in.
Newbie Mini Mafia LXI - Page 59
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
Hey, Trfelscum, you conceding? Epic incoming WOT once I have put some bold in. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:04 Tere wrote: If I were scum conceding, then the game would already be over.Lookit all the appeals to emotion there. Hey, Trfelscum, you conceding? Epic incoming WOT once I have put some bold in. Town Trfel is conceding. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:04 Tere wrote: And, WHAT THE HECK ELSE am I supposed to appeal to when I am being scumread but not told the reasons?Lookit all the appeals to emotion there. Hey, Trfelscum, you conceding? Epic incoming WOT once I have put some bold in. This case took you a heck of a long time to prepare. It had better be worth the wait. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:04 Tere wrote: If you really thought I was scum, you wouldn't have even had to say "Trfelscum", you would have just said "Trfel".Lookit all the appeals to emotion there. Hey, Trfelscum, you conceding? Epic incoming WOT once I have put some bold in. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On February 20 2015 05:55 The Shining wrote: Zlefin, you seem to be showing suspicion of Trfel. Had him listed null before. He has a very extensive filter, a lot to analyze. There have been reads, pushes, willingness to engage, quick retractions when wrong and reading the thread. This is why I town read him. With a player with a filter this big, with valid scumhunting, are you still null on him? If so, how? If not, where are you leaning on him? He's still an overall null, he's had some good towny moments, as well as some things over time that make him feel scummy. It still comes out fairly neutral, it could go either way. Like I say, I could see a Trfel/Silver team as a possibility, as I looked over how things were done. I am still quite concerned about Elyas claim, Elyas was my vote up until now, I only changed because of the blueclaim; time is a bit thin, and the posts about Elyas I cited in the previous page show some oddities in how Elyas came to her choices, so I still have concerns about Elyas, I just don't want to lynch yet given the blue claim. I maintain silver is a great target right now. I'm suspicious of Tere as well, more suspicious than I am of trfel. I'm fine with being paranoid, so I see no reason not to have some suspicions on people; which is why I'd like to see more from JarJar. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
I should be the first to say props to Trfel, he's tried very hard, and his scum game is much better than the one he linked to (which is, of course, why he was so happy to link it). I think the reason for this is pretty simple - this is a coached game, and, while I don't know what ObiWanShinobi's scum game is, I have read through one of Damdred's scum games, and he's this scary scary scum lord. Seriously. The guy is good, and Trfel is a smart player who will soak up all the coaching he can. From a out of game perspective, well done. From an ingame perspective, I am coming for you with a noose right now. I took 4 hours or so while waiting for my car to be serviced to read carefully through the entirety of the thread, because I think it's important to do that as well as filter dive in order to get the context. I got several things from this, the first being that I townread the four townies I have much more strongly. These are some of the tells and suspicious things I saw from Trfel. I am not going to quote every single thing, because his filter is enormous, but I will pick out some cases for each that hope explain my points. I strongly recommend everybody go read his filter with these points in mind, so you can make up your own mind regardless of what I am saying here. 1. The "hey guyz look how towny I am" case There's a whole bunch of little things that add up here. There are several "hey guyz lookit this towny post there's no way I'd do this as mafia" posts, for example, starting right out of the gate with http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=5#97. He's really careful to say how hard he's working and how he's staying up late etc. etc. rather than just doing it. Town don't need to tell town they are towny like that. Scum need to do that. The very bland "will and testament" N1 is another example - play see if you can actually understand his position on people to see what they mean (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=38#749). I also hate this post, it reeks of fake to me http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=38#755. I also saw this post as strange and rather suspicious. Why would a town Trfel ask that of rsoultin at night? That just looks like a scum trying to pick their nightkill http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=30#585 There is also this about how he's not bussing Silverarte, honest. Yeaaah. No. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=54#1065 On their own these things aren't particularly strong, but combined with the stuff below, I think it's worth considering. 2. The disappearing reads case Before you look at this, answer me this - could you, even now, after all of Trfel's filters, manage to say clearly what his scumreads are? There's an awful lot of talking and filter padding, but actually very little of substance. Almost every single "read" he makes is then ringed around with caveat after caveat, distancing behaviour that is not town compatible play. Townies are comfortable to give reads, they are fearless, they will never have to go back on their reads to push a lynch to ensure scum survival. You can pretty much look at any of Trfel's reads and see this nervousness, this distancing, this care to place cases and retract them. Look at his interaction and "scum read" on the Shining Day 1, for example, or pretty much any of his reads on me. Scum doesn't know who they need to have in their pocket and who to go for. There's a nervousness that carries with scum reads, and Trfel's reads have it in spades. When you look through his filter, you see lots of little pushes all over the place, but a great care to step away from them (leaving them available for later). It's a neat little trail of breadcrumbs to make sure he can build cases later when he needs to, with the notable exception of Silverarte, until he decides to bus her. Just look at his vote on Hier, vague handwringing about it being the wrong lynch, but absolutely no attempt to push a counterwagon himself, despite ample time to do so. He then scumreads ElyAs and myself for not finding a counterwagon when he did nothing about it himself, despite having plenty of time to put down other WOTs. He makes a vague suggestion of ElyAs and then sorta washes his hands of it http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=24#476. That's it. A bit like him trying to get me to lead the charge today, when he thought I had him as a locked townread. Very hands off. There's reams and reams of this stuff, so I am just going to pick a couple. They aren't hand picked, just the ones that I come to. rsoultin: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=12#236 The Shining: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=6#105, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=17#323 zlefin (I hate hate hate this one!) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=34#679 jarjar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=35#681 and fake rsoul - oracle with bonus potshot at the Shining http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=39#770 - and this, he talks to jar for ages N1 and this is what he comes up with? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=40#798 3. The reaction to Tere trolling the scumteam case Hopefully it's clear by now from ElyAs' claim that I was winding up the scum team by softclaiming vig and / or veteran. Two reasons, one to try and draw the block if there was one away from any town specials that did exist, and secondly to force the scum team to come at me in the daytime, in case I really was the vet (now ElyAs has claimed it's clear there's no vet in the game). I'd have liked another night of trolling the scum team, but I guess I'm going to call it job done  I also wanted the two picks to see reactions, and my analysis on that is here. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=41#820 Here's what I said on Trfel: "No answer - Trfel starts out by expressing confusion at WTF I am doing and why I hadn't done it myself here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=31#614 (as an aside, please don't scumread me for being asleep fairly soon after day and night ends that end at midnight my time, that would be lovely). He then posts his discomfort and thinks I am fishing in order that I can place the kills (because he's seen Artanis do this as mafia) here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=33#642. He scumreads me a little more strongly for this here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=33#648. There's some form of impenetrable chat with rsoultin about a point on an observation board somewhere, which Trfel will need to explain if he's convinced that whatever is on that board is relevant, but after further thought he seems to discount it. His response to me saying he really doesn't want to play looks OK, though, calm, measured - he's not lost down a rabbit hole somewhere (clearly I don't feel this now). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=35#687 He never answers but his last will and testament puts lynchpool at Tere, ElyAs, Silverarte (maybe jarjar) Note the broad lynchpool, but with the potential to bus if he needs it.http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=38#749" The only thing I want to point out apart from that is that when rsoul said she knew what I was doing, he tried to fish to find out what it was, which didn't work http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=34#662. Classic blue fishing there, and a great scum tell. At the time it was a negative for me but I thought my townread on him outweighed it. Clearly I no longer feel that. Also note how hard he tries to push me to out straight out the gate earlier today. 4. The "negging boyfriend" case, a.k.a. I'm totally going to copyright negative ladyboner  I think I hit the nail on the head in my post last night about my interactions with Trfel being a bit like being on a date with one of those weird negging guys who's read on of those pick up artist books. That post is here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=43#855. He's weird with me right out of the gate here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=18#343, and it raised a red flag for me at the time. It's not that he wants to know my experience level per se, it's more that he kinda drops in my comment from another TL Mafia thread like that, almost like he's trying to show I'm being dishonest and not revealing my experience level. It's weird. 5 mins later he's immediately on the attack on my reads http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=18#345, claiming they are based on mafia ability rather than alignment indicative information. If it was one post, it would be odd, but OK, but there's quite a few posts in his filter which he's quick to attack my reads in whatever way he can, if you look for them. A concerted attempt like this to dismiss and denigrate another player's reads isn't town aligned behaviour. Town should always keep an open mind, and you see in townies a respect for reads even if they don't understand them. I'm given no leeway at all here, and you see the discrediting time and time again. Trfel's been gunning for me out of the gate, while trying to keep my in his pocket while I'm townreading him. I think my negging boyfriend post is a good example, with it's nice people aren't town nasty people aren't mafia negging, but there are plenty of others in the filter. Look how keen he was to vote me out of the gate this morning, when I'm being scumread by everyone. The "I'm so careful, I'm such a good townie, look how slowly I work" Trfel missed that more was coming from me twice in my WOTs, once clearly at the beginning, once at the end? No. Scum slip there, buddy. Trfel's seen me as a threat since the start and has been working for me to be out since the word go. He probably shat his pants when I said I'd played in or read over 50 games. He wasn't expecting my giant WOT analysis and that wrongfooted him, although he was careful to work to discredit voting analysis, N1 analysis and my two pick analysis quickly. He was prepping to buddy me up, and I also wrongfooted him with scumreading him this morning, hence the complete silence in the thread today. That isn't a townie reaching out to understand another townie and work with them. That's a defensive scum reacting through fear. Contrast it, say, with the way The Shining and I played out last night during our fisticuffs if you want to see a tonal difference. His filter is obsessed with me, and it's not because he's scumreading me. He even flat out says he wishes I'd be the N1 kill http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=22#429, the am I a veteran am I a vig or not trolling must have been driving him up the wall. I expect the scumboard to be a good read 5. Connections to Silverarte. Associative reads are not particularly strong, that's one of the few true things that Trfel has said, but what really stood out to me about Trfel and Silverarte is that, until he decided to bus her, there's almost no actual interaction between them at all, I could only find two or three things on a readthrough, and none are probing each other, it's "Hiya, what do you think of X". It's like they are invisible to each other, although he's careful to lock down any discussion of the N1 kill as perhaps being related to any of rsoul's real life connections. There's a bit of Silverarte backing up his case on me, but I'll cover that in her case. That's it This push at me is very interesting though - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/476143-newbie-mini-mafia-lxi?page=50#983 - this is a push as to why I have Silverarte as scum AFTER he's written up his big ass bussing case on her. That pings. That's more than enough from me. Please all go and look at Trfel's filter, I think it's a slam dunk, I really do. I am completely happy to gladiate against him. Note he doesn't want to do that. Of course he doesn't. A 1 v 1 is terrible for scum, particularly with Silverarte already so exposed. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
Trfel 0/2 Shining 1/1 rsoultin 1/1 dead town N1 elyas -1/1 jarjar -1/3 tere -1/3 hier 0/2 dead town D1 silver -1/1 tere has negatives, and got the positive point iirc early day 2 (or maybe late night 1) from a strong helpful push which covered a lot of good text in a short period of time. But the stuff on either side of that isn't so impressive. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
Didn't Tere also bump Zlefin up a couple of notches on her town list? Defends his wanting to lynch Trfel for info as a Newbie play. Suspicious of him then bumps him up to new townie finding his voice once he says he'll give her slot a pass. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
Retract that part of your case immediately or I will have to ask for you to be modkilled. | ||
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:06 Trfel wrote: If I were scum conceding, then the game would already be over. Town Trfel is conceding. Now why would a town Trfel even need to do that? Town isn't even in Lylo. You're just giving invalid reasons for throwing your hands in the air and stopping working. It's lame. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:15 The Shining wrote: Well, say I believe the Doc claim, right? That means I'm wrong on one of my reads. Ely goes from red to blue in my eyes. That forces me to look for another possible scum, as Tere can't work alone. Didn't Tere also bump Zlefin up a couple of notches on her town list? Defends his wanting to lynch Trfel for info as a Newbie play. Suspicious of him then bumps him up to new townie finding his voice once he says he'll give her slot a pass. Nice try. The Scum coaches are listed right in the intro posts. I have no idea whose your is or even if you have one, I have no idea what they have said to you, and I am not speculating on it. It's perfectly fine to say I respect scum Damdred's play, because he's good. Daam... I will, however, remove it if the GMs ask me too, of course. It's hardly a major part of the case, and I am perfectly happy it stands on its own merits. | ||
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Trfel
7015 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:21 Tere wrote: I don't care how relevant it is to your case.Nice try. The Scum coaches are listed right in the intro posts. I have no idea whose your is or even if you have one, I have no idea what they have said to you, and I am not speculating on it. It's perfectly fine to say I respect scum Damdred's play, because he's good. Daam... I will, however, remove it if the GMs ask me too, of course. It's hardly a major part of the case, and I am perfectly happy it stands on its own merits. It says in the rules that there is to be no discussion of coaching. Don't edit it out, that's worse. Just accept that you are not allowed to use that argument. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
Wow, Tere, that's a case. Let me get through it, shouldn't be more than 10 mins. On the surface, it looks pretty damning, as some of it echoes thoughts I had on Trfel with my early suspicions. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
And if your case is to be believed, plus your thoughts on Silver, you're saying our only 2 wagons are both scum? | ||
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
I am also issuing a warning to Trfel for discussing modkills. This is a blanket warning to everyone. I am going to modkill the next person that discusses coaching or even mentions it in their post in any sense of the word. Don't come up with theories, don't make assumptions. It is out of game information, end of. Do not discuss modkills, modkill decisions or even trying to get someone modkilled, it is poor form. Again, it is out of game information. | ||
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The Shining
United States2406 Posts
JJB, Silver, not voting. Seems to be a big tell on Silver here, not really sure why JJB is afk. I need to see those votes. | ||
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
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Trfel
7015 Posts
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Tere
United Kingdom225 Posts
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