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On February 20 2015 06:27 The Shining wrote:
Zlefin, I asked because you are voting with Trfel by voting Silver. Just wanted to make sure you weren't voting with a scumread. That's just bad.
Wow, Tere, that's a case. Let me get through it, shouldn't be more than 10 mins. On the surface, it looks pretty damning, as some of it echoes thoughts I had on Trfel with my early suspicions.
I'm not sure what you mean by voting with a scumread.
I changed my vote from my first target, who blueclaimed, to the next best target on my list, as I established early on in day 2 in my town/neutral/scum post.
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...lol? I can't count. If I had a dollar for every time TL times have confused me...
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On February 20 2015 06:29 The Shining wrote:
Tere, you realize if Trfel flips town, you'll likely be gladiated anyway?
And if your case is to be believed, plus your thoughts on Silver, you're saying our only 2 wagons are both scum?
Yup, I am totally cool with that.
Yes, I think they are both scumwagons. Trfel is hard budding Silverarte. He wasn't expecting me to come out gunning for him today, and thinks it will buy him towncred.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On February 20 2015 06:43 The Shining wrote:
...lol? I can't count. If I had a dollar for every time TL times have confused me...
The countdown that says "2 hours left" is really tough to interpret sometimes 
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A response to Tere's case
1. I'm sorry, I suffer from pride. And I am vain. If I am staying up super late at night and working hard, I want people to know about it. It's not a good attitude, but as much as I want it to not be true, I want credit for my work. It's only human.
My end of Night 1 post is fine. Why should I make it exactly clear who I want to lynch when we have an entire 48 hours to prepare for that lynch? That's just stupid to trust my reads that much.
Why am I asking what rsoultin thinks of my alignment? It's good to check and make sure rsoultin's thinking makes sense. It's an easy thing for me to do, because I know my alignment, so that eliminates an uncertainty. While I accepted rsoultin as town, you yourself said that you would never be more than 95% sure of anything, and asking for rsoultin's reasoning for her read on me is a fair way to be cautious.
2. And what if I made cases and stuck to them after I saw evidence to the contrary?
When I started playing mafia, I thought the same way you show here. Then I learned that almost never is there a case so strong you can just stick with it, no matter what happens. Artanis taught me in Imperial that you need to be fluid with your reads, willing to change them and re-evaluate (yes I know he was scum, he still taught me this). If I wasn't willing to re-evaluate my reads, that might indicate that I was scum. As it is, you can see clear, logical reasons for why I made every single read change. There is no reason not to accept this as town-motivated behavior.
As for my reads being apparently hard to find, this isn't really the case. I showed suspicions of The Shining, then ElyAs, then Tere, then Silverarte. Or something like that, I can't remember exactly in what order I did what. Note that I am always uncertain of my reads, this has always been the case. Rsoultin is very clear about this in her goodbye post. As to why I am uncertain about my reads, it's because I have been wrong a lot. Surely no one else is guilty of being wrong. I'm trying to learn from my mistakes, and so far this has told me to doubt myself.
What you DO see in my filter is me investigating and evaluating everything, responding to everyone, and most importantly, providing insights, critical thinking, and reads for everyone to see. Do I have to be 100% confident about who is scum when I am constantly filter diving and critically thinking about what people are doing? I don't think so.
I'm not going to explain all of my examples. I'll just jump to the "worst" one, my post on zlefin. First of all, I realized something wasn't clear, so I decided to clarify it. And am I allowed to say that I don't have enough information? It would be stupid to always think that I had enough information to decide. I didn't identify his alignment conclusively, but look at what I DID see. I saw that zlefin was showing indications of scumhunting and a town explanation for his behavior, while he was being widely scumread. At the time, most people were scumreading zlefin. Now, zlefin is usually null or higher. I saw this before everyone else did, I went back and explained zlefin's table using his filter, I investigated his behavior and found a town explanation for it. Does that mean he is definite town? Of course not. If I have to dig through his filter to find his reasoning, and if I have to really search to show that he is critically thinking, it would be horrible if I instantly accepted him as town. With my post in mind, I made a few suggestions to him, and he changed his play AND THAT IS WHY HE ISN'T BEING UNANIMOUSLY SCUMREAD RIGHT NOW.
3. I HAD NO CLUE WHAT RSOULTIN WAS DOING WHATSOEVER. I have never ever attempted to find blue roles. Never. I saw something I didn't understand, and I asked about it. Would you expect otherwise?
A few posts later, I found out what rsoultin was getting at. I expressed frustrations at myself for drawing attention to it, and I was a bit annoyed that rsoultin brought it up in the first place. This is clearly obvious if you read what actually happened.
THERE IS A THING CALLED A PRESSURE PUSH. That was my intention. After rsoultin died, the thread was dead and inactive. Right before that, I expressed how I was not confident in lynching you right at the start of the day. Do you really think I would go back on that, if not for a pressure push?
4. Maybe I attacked your reads because I saw something scummy there?
Many of the things you said have looked like scum. They have looked suspicious. Rsoultin agreed with me, as did most of the game. I later overlooked them because I felt that as a whole, your play was towny enough to do so.
So you are actually saying that I am scummy for criticizing your reads? I'm not criticizing your reads for the purposes of doing so, I'm criticizing your reads for the purposes of determining your alignment. I thought you could make better reads, I wanted to know if anyone else was having the same suspicions. If I'm not supposed to criticize your reads, then you would be allowed to say whatever you want. This is nonsensical.
It's not a scum slip to miss a sentence. A scum slip is when you reveal that you are scum. I misread something. Town can misread things, too.
5. Not even reading this. You suffer from connections to Silverarte too.
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I am still completely cool with gladiating Trfel if you want, by the way. Just promise me you will lynch Trfel and Silverarte next if I die, because I will flip Vanilla Town.
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K, just making sure. And honestly, upon review, I can see how plausible it is. Ugh.
Zlefin I was just explaining why I asked where you stand on Trfel. If you thought he was scum, you'd be voting with your scum read but you don't. Just wanted to make that clear.
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OK, so if you are scumreading me Trfel, you should be totally cool with a gladiate. Let's do this.
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On February 20 2015 06:44 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2015 06:43 The Shining wrote:
...lol? I can't count. If I had a dollar for every time TL times have confused me... The countdown that says "2 hours left" is really tough to interpret sometimes
Rofl I play on mobile/tablet at work. The coding won't display on my phone, they just stay blank. =P and I can't pull my tablet for another hour.
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You kids talk amongst yourselves for a bit, I'm gonna run up my thoughts on Silverarte.
I'm not bothering to respond to Trfel's response. You know my read on him, it's up to the rest of you guys to evaluate things now. I'll just shit up the thread.
Back in a bit, I want this out before end of Day in case there's a hiccup and I'm lynched. If I am, my last kill instructions are Trfel, then Silverarte. Trfel is obvscum and it will give you back one mislynch that way, although the only very slight question mark I had was ElyAs and he's non cc-ed blue.
In bfore Silverarte CCs Doc. If she does, don't believe her.
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On February 20 2015 06:46 The Shining wrote:
K, just making sure. And honestly, upon review, I can see how plausible it is. Ugh.
Zlefin I was just explaining why I asked where you stand on Trfel. If you thought he was scum, you'd be voting with your scum read but you don't. Just wanted to make that clear.
I know it won't make you feel better, but I did earlier mention the possibility of a silver/trfel pairing, I still consider that a real possibility. Really, if Silver is mafia, which I think likely, then their partner bussing them wouldn't be surprising at all.
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I don't care to address the intricacies of Tere's case. Those are the main points where I feel she is wrong.
For the majority of the game, town has been following my reads. I've been constantly scumhunting and posting reads. I've been critically analyzing the game. I've showed suspicions of Tere which basically everyone accepted at one point in the game.
If you are going to turn on all that work, all of my reads, all of the times when you trusted me, just for this case with barely over two hours until End of Day, and not even give me the fairness of an open mind (not a single person responded to my request for this, btw), then consider yourself at LYLO. You deserve it.
Tere, I would be honored that you think this highly of my scum game. Except it's probably more likely that you don't. In reality, I feel horribly insulted that you think I am an easy mislynch.
It turns out, you were right. There was no way for you to know that I was going to put in so much effort throughout Day 1 that I would tire myself out and I couldn't focus on the game any more. But you did it anyway. And it worked. Believe me, if this was Day 1, I would never go down like this.
I've never played for multiple days of a mafia game, and it shows. My method of playing mafia is to play the game in every waking moment, and it turns out that I can't do that for more than three real-life days. I'm tired. I don't have the focus to play to my normal standards.
One more thing of note, I spent some of the earlier part of this afternoon trying to meta read Tere. She said several times that she was her favorite role this game. I found a user named Tere on several mafia sites, and in one of them, the same sentence was included that she posted here, so it's the same person. All of the Teres are the same because they all included a cat as the profile picture. While I was unable to conclusively find Tere stating her favorite role, I did find that multiple times, she said that she really enjoyed playing mafia. Keep this in mind.
Does that look like bluehunting? You bet. I don't care, I'm already getting lynched. Just keep this in mind. The best I can do is share my thoughts, so at least you can listen to them once I am dead.
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no matter who that partner is, I add to my previous post.
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On February 20 2015 06:46 Tere wrote:
OK, so if you are scumreading me Trfel, you should be totally cool with a gladiate. Let's do this. Your case on me is really bad and wrong. Everything about it seems like mafia. However, I guess I have generally been okay with your play to this point, and I don't have the will to go through your case and see if it says anything about your alignment.
Town, remember this. Do not lynch Tere just because she was wrong about me. If you are going to lynch Tere, do so because you found evidence that she was scum. Being wrong isn't scummy. Tere, I know you are more than willing to die for being wrong on me, but if you are in fact town, that is game ending. You can't possibly expect me to be town and hold you to this unless I believe 100% that you are scum. I don't.
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Ha!
If you have managed to stalk me, well done, although that's a bit creepy. Actually it's really creepy :/
But that's also a flat out lie, and, if you want me too, guys, I will link you to a post I made when very frustrated with someone scum reading me that makes it quite clear how I hate playing mafia and thought I sucked at it. It's also a post that makes it clear I am stating this while I am playing vanilla town (it's from a mountainous).
I can take a forum off ignore and fish for it if you guys really want it.
Vanilla town is my favourite role.
I still think Trfel and I should be gladiating. Why don't you want to gladiate, Trfel? 
Oh wait, it's because you are caught scum.
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Trfel's Final Post
And you had better listen to it or provide a really good reason not to
I'm just going to post this now. I feel no motivation to continue scumhunting at this time.
Take a good look at Tere. My initial case on Tere was posted here. Even though I later townread Tere, this case never lost its validity. You can evaluate the strength of the points for yourself, but keep in mind something critical. Tere is an extremely, extremely skilled player. Her actions themselves are generally acceptable and you can find a townie reasoning for it. My point is that the reasoning behind her actions is weak, and her actions seem to have a scum motivation.
For example, take a look at how her reads follow mine. I townread zlefin, The Shining, and ElyAs while Tere was scumreading them. Later, Tere's reads changed. Note that I scumread Silverarte while Tere was townreading her, and then Tere's read changed. I'm not going to find the quotes for these, you can do that yourself, but believe me, this is true. If Tere was thinking critically about the game, wouldn't she have been able to make at least one of those reads before I was? Also, notice how she decided to hard push me despite following my reads for the entire game.
Look at the way that Tere pushed me. I finally gave her a somewhat confident townread for the first time in the game. This makes it hard for me to reverse it to a scumread, and it makes Tere's push no longer an OMGUS. Then, I said I was going to be busy for much of today before EOD. Then, Tere announced that she was suspicious of me but needed to look through my filter, and then with something like 6-7 hours left until EOD, Tere announced 95+% confidence in my being scum with Silverarte. She finally posted with barely more than two hours left until EOD. Note that this is the same Tere who expressed her desire to get the lynch settled before the last moment.
Take a look at the quality of Tere's case. Is she intentionally stretching things, intentionally misrepresenting me? I believe she is. Does that make her mafia? That's up to you.
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Actually, that isn't my final post. I meant to post that right at the deadline, and then forgot to change the title.
I'll keep watching. If anyone has any specific questions for me, I will answer. Until that, I am done.
Tere, I don't swear. Not in real life, and certainly not in a forum mafia game. I'm not going to change that just for you, but it is difficult. I hope you are proud of yourself for mislynching the person whose reads you followed (though I'm sure you won't admit it) the entire game.
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trfel -> I didn't respond to your request for open minded discussion since I wasn't voting against you, so I didn't really see a need to; and still don't.
I'll keep listening to things and discussing some things; but mostly I want to see what comes of the lynch today and the night kill.
While I will of course keep talking and analyzing thing, I feel I already have enough info to figure how to handle all remaining votes (with adjustments based on how everyone turns of course)
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I still want to see Silverarte lynched. She is always absent, only provided one post showing interesting thought, and it felt almost forced out of her (the one she made on Tere).
Again, don't commit to lynching Silverarte after me, either. Take your time and choose the next lynch wisely. And no matter what you decide on Tere, don't listen to her. If her reads are this horrible, she should not be leading town, regardless of her alignment.
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EPT
