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On December 30 2013 11:06 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 03:56 juracule wrote:On December 30 2013 02:50 TheYango wrote:
Medallion's armor basically doesn't count because there should virtually never be a time in a fight where you don't have that debuff on someone.
And what else would you get for Attack Speed on Lycan at that time? Armlet's too slot-inefficient on a hero that's desperately strapped for slots, Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame, Manta's cute, but not really a good combat item (although it's actually superior to Deso if you're going the "all-out split-push" route), and Mjollnir's just underwhelming altogether. AC is just outright the best attack speed option for you, even if you are 1st position.
If you are going full split-push Vlad+Necro+AC+Manta is actually going to be better than Vlad+Necro+AC+Deso because Manta allows your Necros and creep wave to retain the double aura without you being there. w0t What do you mean Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame? It provides more EHP than AC for an armor level higher than 2 (or 3, whatever), provides more atk speed, and the amount of damage it provides compared to ac is dependent on enemy hero armor. On top of that it counters just about anything ranging from bash to lifesteal. Armlet is slot-ineffecient? What? Where does this stigma come from that, just because armlet is cheap, it is also slot-inefficient? It synergizes even better with lycan than with most other strength heroes because of his passive (and because of vlad's, whether it's on you or on someone else late-game). Sure, ac got better after the patch where Vlad's and AC were allowed to stack but its still definitely not an item I'd like to see on my 1# position hard carry. I heard aui say that butterfly is better as a pure carry item on tiny, but I did the calculations and it's not true. 15 armor is a lot of armor, 16 and 2/3 gives you 100% more hp at 0 armor, I'd have to do the calculations for lycan but it's probably going to be close (but butterfly is more expensive). I used to play lycan a lot, and slots are really at a premium for him. Boots, vlad, tp. Then usually you have medallion (can sell, but selling it for armlet probably reduces your total dps). You often have aegis, and there's still bkb necrobook ac (usually I'd sell the medallion for ac to replace the -armor). So when ac couldn't stack with basilius type auras, I think deso was viable. You got more a little more -armor, and your team gained no armor benefit (huge), and 60 damage was better than 55 atttack speed when you had feral instinct + treads + nec aura.
I'd like to see your calculations for tiny, as I also believe butterfly is a better item than AC on tiny, especially with how well evasion pairs with craggy.
With 35% evasion you get 54% more EHP (1/(1-0.35) = 1.54,
EHP with butterfly = (1.54)[1+(0.06x(armor+4))](HP)
Whereas AC = .9(HP) + (0.06xarmor)HP + HP
These formulae should speak for themselves. 15 armor should be about 90% increase in EHP
lvl 16 tiny has about 7.5 armor, w/o items, and he has 1499hp.
If we plug this in for the respective items:
Butterfly; 3901.2974 ehp
Ac: 3522.65
Thus in terms of EHP, butterfly grants more.
However you should probably pm me if you disagree as I don't want to hijack this thread.
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I really like the item progression to Vlads and Medallion, it's very efficient. I was always unsure of whether or not Medallion was core but this guide convinced me it is.
Is there a trick to microing the wolves so that they don't get retargeted by the creeps? I always micro them back when they're low on hp but the creeps will sometimes retarget them and I lose wolves.
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Lycan is almost exclusively about pushing. Living in fights is tertiary to:
1. Pushing
2. Killing people
AC is clearly superior to butterfly in both respects.
As KwarK said:
You shouldn't actually be getting many kills in this phase tbh. You should be wherever the action isn't because you can wreck shit up like no other hero (literally no other hero is as crazy destructive to buildings as lycan) and you can draw heroes to stop you and if there are too few you can just gank them then run. As long as you keep the farm going, the towers falling and the items being bought you're good. If they 5 man it up have your team try to avoid feeding and just play defensive, buying time/farming and holding high while you go kill rax. What you want to be able to do is TP in at the last second, turn into a giant wolf and bkb their entire team out of nowhere. If you picture what an AM does at 50 minutes, that's you at 25, but you should try and avoid having to do that because the longer you put it off for the more destructive it gets. The nightmare scenario for you is that you're doing your split push perfectly but one of your team gets caught out and the other 3 pile into 5 of them without you and all feed, if they can avoid that then you should be good. If you don't think that can be avoided then get them to follow you in and just teamfight because you're a lycan and you just find their most critical hero and eat him.
I want to emphasize this because in most games, the only reason you should kill people is if you can. In most games as lycan I only kill those who are defending towers when they clearly cannot, or in teamfights/ganks where I happen to be around, have aegis, or after I have TPed in to turn the tide.
Thus building survivability on Lycan IMO should be limited to getting BKB and AC unless absolutely necessary (which it almost never is). So many games as Lycan are won by pushing lanes while your team 4v5s, since you can take a set of rax in under a minute with AC + Necro + vlads.
On December 30 2013 12:51 yyfpulls wrote:
I really like the item progression to Vlads and Medallion, it's very efficient. I was always unsure of whether or not Medallion was core but this guide convinced me it is.
Is there a trick to microing the wolves so that they don't get retargeted by the creeps? I always micro them back when they're low on hp but the creeps will sometimes retarget them and I lose wolves.
You can try a-clicking your hero with them-if it's a big camp like the centaurs, sometimes they will purposely aggro the lowest HP unit you have. You can get around this by using that unit and attacking, and running away immediately when you notice the neutral aggros. This has the additional side effect of reducing the amount of damage the neutral does, particularly if you can time it such that the reaggro happens during an attack animation.
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So...Bounty Hunter who wards your jungle and trades lack of farm with you. Whats the best way to deal?
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On December 30 2013 20:52 Russano wrote:
So...Bounty Hunter who wards your jungle and trades lack of farm with you. Whats the best way to deal?
you are just useless for the rest of the game and hope that your team can carry you. That is why i don't like lycan.
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Anytime they come and fuck wtih me in the jungle I get absolutely screwed, and BH is the biggest offender. If my team wins their lanes I catch up, but if my team doesn't win lanes we just lose.
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United States42673 Posts
On December 30 2013 20:52 Russano wrote:
So...Bounty Hunter who wards your jungle and trades lack of farm with you. Whats the best way to deal?
Return to fountain frequently. Trade sage's mask for a ring of health and stay nearish to the safelane support who will carry dust. A Lycan can manfight a BH if it comes to that. But that takes a lot of cohesion. Fortunately the safelane support shouldn't really be needed if BH is off lane and your hard carry will be getting freefarm.
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Its really lame having to rely on supports to do their job. So many games the 5 slot wont get sentries even when he knows hes against BH. Is it worth it to get sentries to deward the medium/small camps and let you know when bh is there?
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United States42673 Posts
If no-one else will, sure. But you're trying to stay fullish hp anyway to deny him ganks. Honestly I always worry about dewarding camps because I don't know if I'm gonna deward the wrong spot and not get it or accidentally block the camp myself.
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How do you deal with a bad first Roshan attempt?
I've had a lot of success with this build going necro 1 -> BoT -> necro 3
The necro 1 is usually done after Roshan.
In my last game I got spotted doing Rosh and they had a spectre as well as a Furion, so I had to dash.
I managed to survive but rosh went to their Luna.
It was quite a setback compared to the other games where rosh gives me 2 levels and some nice cash. I still continued the build though and we ended up losing.
Do you do anything special if the first Rosh goes their way?
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United States42673 Posts
On December 31 2013 02:04 Laurens wrote:
How do you deal with a bad first Roshan attempt?
I've had a lot of success with this build going necro 1 -> BoT -> necro 3
The necro 1 is usually done after Roshan.
In my last game I got spotted doing Rosh and they had a spectre as well as a Furion, so I had to dash.
I managed to survive but rosh went to their Luna.
It was quite a setback compared to the other games where rosh gives me 2 levels and some nice cash. I still continued the build though and we ended up losing.
Do you do anything special if the first Rosh goes their way?
Get delayed and be generally sad about it tbh.
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Ok.
It feels like there should be better solutions 
This build is very strong though, cheers for sharing.
Difficulties encountered:
- I pick lycan and click jungle, other dude randoms NP and shouts at me, claims jungle.
So I go safelane, luckily I get a support with me. Also it was against a solo Skywrath. That game went pretty well.
- People flip when I suicide and actually start throwing because of rage.
I now announce when I'm about to suicide and say it's part of the build xD
- No courier to bring hatchet.
Side shop is close enough, but it's still annoying.
- No rosh.
As above, sad lycan 
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The main problem with the build is that if the other team knows about it and sends 1 support to the jungle at 30-40 seconds you won't clear the small camp and they know what you are doing. From there on out your pretty much easy food if they rotate. If they don't and you get to do what you want in peace it's awesome.
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On December 30 2013 11:42 juracule wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 11:06 igotmyown wrote:On December 30 2013 03:56 juracule wrote:On December 30 2013 02:50 TheYango wrote:
Medallion's armor basically doesn't count because there should virtually never be a time in a fight where you don't have that debuff on someone.
And what else would you get for Attack Speed on Lycan at that time? Armlet's too slot-inefficient on a hero that's desperately strapped for slots, Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame, Manta's cute, but not really a good combat item (although it's actually superior to Deso if you're going the "all-out split-push" route), and Mjollnir's just underwhelming altogether. AC is just outright the best attack speed option for you, even if you are 1st position.
If you are going full split-push Vlad+Necro+AC+Manta is actually going to be better than Vlad+Necro+AC+Deso because Manta allows your Necros and creep wave to retain the double aura without you being there. w0t What do you mean Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame? It provides more EHP than AC for an armor level higher than 2 (or 3, whatever), provides more atk speed, and the amount of damage it provides compared to ac is dependent on enemy hero armor. On top of that it counters just about anything ranging from bash to lifesteal. Armlet is slot-ineffecient? What? Where does this stigma come from that, just because armlet is cheap, it is also slot-inefficient? It synergizes even better with lycan than with most other strength heroes because of his passive (and because of vlad's, whether it's on you or on someone else late-game). Sure, ac got better after the patch where Vlad's and AC were allowed to stack but its still definitely not an item I'd like to see on my 1# position hard carry. I heard aui say that butterfly is better as a pure carry item on tiny, but I did the calculations and it's not true. 15 armor is a lot of armor, 16 and 2/3 gives you 100% more hp at 0 armor, I'd have to do the calculations for lycan but it's probably going to be close (but butterfly is more expensive). I used to play lycan a lot, and slots are really at a premium for him. Boots, vlad, tp. Then usually you have medallion (can sell, but selling it for armlet probably reduces your total dps). You often have aegis, and there's still bkb necrobook ac (usually I'd sell the medallion for ac to replace the -armor). So when ac couldn't stack with basilius type auras, I think deso was viable. You got more a little more -armor, and your team gained no armor benefit (huge), and 60 damage was better than 55 atttack speed when you had feral instinct + treads + nec aura. I'd like to see your calculations for tiny, as I also believe butterfly is a better item than AC on tiny, especially with how well evasion pairs with craggy. With 35% evasion you get 54% more EHP (1/(1-0.35) = 1.54, EHP with butterfly = (1.54)[1+(0.06x(armor+4))](HP) Whereas AC = .9(HP) + (0.06xarmor)HP + HP These formulae should speak for themselves. 15 armor should be about 90% increase in EHP lvl 16 tiny has about 7.5 armor, w/o items, and he has 1499hp. If we plug this in for the respective items: Butterfly; 3901.2974 ehp Ac: 3522.65 Thus in terms of EHP, butterfly grants more. However you should probably pm me if you disagree as I don't want to hijack this thread.
hp doesnt matter since it's all multipliers
for tiny, the level 16 base multiplier
(1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5))
with ac
(1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+15))
with butterfly
(1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+30/7))/.65 (i think i didn't multiply the 30/7 in my other calculation)
(1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+15)) / (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5)) = 1.615
(1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+30/7))/.65 / (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5)) = 1.809
Not important for comparison per se, but kind of worth knowing the relative hp increase
Now we prorate for cost
(1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+15)) / (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5)) / 5250 = .000307
(1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+30/7))/.65 / (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5)) / 6000 = .000301
So AC is slightly better on tiny, which means butterfly will be in terms of single hero tankiness a somewhat better on lycan (but still awful in comparison because of all his minions).
I counted the 4+armor for butterfly before, but I didn't multiply it with the evasion, and that does make a big difference. But it still works out.
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On December 31 2013 08:21 igotmyown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2013 11:42 juracule wrote:On December 30 2013 11:06 igotmyown wrote:On December 30 2013 03:56 juracule wrote:On December 30 2013 02:50 TheYango wrote:
Medallion's armor basically doesn't count because there should virtually never be a time in a fight where you don't have that debuff on someone.
And what else would you get for Attack Speed on Lycan at that time? Armlet's too slot-inefficient on a hero that's desperately strapped for slots, Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame, Manta's cute, but not really a good combat item (although it's actually superior to Deso if you're going the "all-out split-push" route), and Mjollnir's just underwhelming altogether. AC is just outright the best attack speed option for you, even if you are 1st position.
If you are going full split-push Vlad+Necro+AC+Manta is actually going to be better than Vlad+Necro+AC+Deso because Manta allows your Necros and creep wave to retain the double aura without you being there. w0t What do you mean Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame? It provides more EHP than AC for an armor level higher than 2 (or 3, whatever), provides more atk speed, and the amount of damage it provides compared to ac is dependent on enemy hero armor. On top of that it counters just about anything ranging from bash to lifesteal. Armlet is slot-ineffecient? What? Where does this stigma come from that, just because armlet is cheap, it is also slot-inefficient? It synergizes even better with lycan than with most other strength heroes because of his passive (and because of vlad's, whether it's on you or on someone else late-game). Sure, ac got better after the patch where Vlad's and AC were allowed to stack but its still definitely not an item I'd like to see on my 1# position hard carry. I heard aui say that butterfly is better as a pure carry item on tiny, but I did the calculations and it's not true. 15 armor is a lot of armor, 16 and 2/3 gives you 100% more hp at 0 armor, I'd have to do the calculations for lycan but it's probably going to be close (but butterfly is more expensive). I used to play lycan a lot, and slots are really at a premium for him. Boots, vlad, tp. Then usually you have medallion (can sell, but selling it for armlet probably reduces your total dps). You often have aegis, and there's still bkb necrobook ac (usually I'd sell the medallion for ac to replace the -armor). So when ac couldn't stack with basilius type auras, I think deso was viable. You got more a little more -armor, and your team gained no armor benefit (huge), and 60 damage was better than 55 atttack speed when you had feral instinct + treads + nec aura. I'd like to see your calculations for tiny, as I also believe butterfly is a better item than AC on tiny, especially with how well evasion pairs with craggy. With 35% evasion you get 54% more EHP (1/(1-0.35) = 1.54, EHP with butterfly = (1.54)[1+(0.06x(armor+4))](HP) Whereas AC = .9(HP) + (0.06xarmor)HP + HP These formulae should speak for themselves. 15 armor should be about 90% increase in EHP lvl 16 tiny has about 7.5 armor, w/o items, and he has 1499hp. If we plug this in for the respective items: Butterfly; 3901.2974 ehp Ac: 3522.65 Thus in terms of EHP, butterfly grants more. However you should probably pm me if you disagree as I don't want to hijack this thread. hp doesnt matter since it's all multipliers for tiny, the level 16 base multiplier (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5)) with ac (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+15)) with butterfly (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+30/7))/.65 (i think i didn't multiply the 30/7 in my other calculation) (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+15)) / (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5)) = 1.615 (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+30/7))/.65 / (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5)) = 1.809 Not important for comparison per se, but kind of worth knowing the relative hp increase Now we prorate for cost (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+15)) / (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5)) / 5250 = .000307 (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5+30/7))/.65 / (1+.06*(2.43+2/7+5)) / 6000 = .000301 So AC is slightly better on tiny, which means butterfly will be in terms of single hero tankiness a somewhat better on lycan (but still awful in comparison because of all his minions). I counted the 4+armor for butterfly before, but I didn't multiply it with the evasion, and that does make a big difference. But it still works out.
Sent reply over PM.
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6 slottet lycan:
BoT
Heart
AC
Halberd
Abyssal
BKB
imo
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United States42673 Posts
I'm in the unfortunate position of rapidly gaining MMR which makes my experimentation somewhat harder. It's difficult to know what works and what does not when the stuff that you remember working may have been inferior to the stuff you're doing now which is working less well but against better opponents.
I remember hulksmashing bkb basher AC lycan doing considerably better than necro bots lycan who can't lock down people in a team fight with his bashes.
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One thing to consider that can occasionally be beneficial is to check rune at 2 minutes after you've cleared your medium camp (by check I mean look at it not go there). Your at the medium camp (if radiant you are very close to the rune, if dire probably not the medium camp closest but if it's a hard medium it might be beneficial to go to the lower one).
Usually at least 1 rune spot is warded. There is a 10 % chance of a regen rune spawning which totally changes your gameplan, and a 20 % chance that it spawns a DD or an Illusion rune. Depending on your HP these might let you clear an entire medium camp before you suicide, I'm not sure it's worth it to get them. The other runes are useless.
If you can only see the other runespot it's a 20 % of a regen, and a 40 % of something else beneficial so it's kind of a gamble.
Also consider that it could be dangerous if you go alone but you could run a wolf ahead of you.
Also I've done the necro1 --> boots of travel. I rarely use the TP before I have a necro 3 either way and when I do it's mostly to go near a tower anyway and you have enough space for a TP which you still want. Lanes are still mostly intact at this point and towers are usually up. Now I go necro 3 with brown boots before I get BoT's.
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United States42673 Posts
On January 01 2014 02:05 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
One thing to consider that can occasionally be beneficial is to check rune at 2 minutes after you've cleared your medium camp (by check I mean look at it not go there). Your at the medium camp (if radiant you are very close to the rune, if dire probably not the medium camp closest but if it's a hard medium it might be beneficial to go to the lower one).
Usually at least 1 rune spot is warded. There is a 10 % chance of a regen rune spawning which totally changes your gameplan, and a 20 % chance that it spawns a DD or an Illusion rune. Depending on your HP these might let you clear an entire medium camp before you suicide, I'm not sure it's worth it to get them. The other runes are useless.
If you can only see the other runespot it's a 20 % of a regen, and a 40 % of something else beneficial so it's kind of a gamble.
Also consider that it could be dangerous if you go alone but you could run a wolf ahead of you.
Also I've done the necro1 --> boots of travel. I rarely use the TP before I have a necro 3 either way and when I do it's mostly to go near a tower anyway and you have enough space for a TP which you still want. Lanes are still mostly intact at this point and towers are usually up. Now I go necro 3 with brown boots before I get BoT's.
Rune is a good tip, I take if regen or illusion, deny otherwise. I think necro3 first may be better than bots.
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I don't think I've ever seen the enemy team be so hell-bent on countering me. I show up at a tower, they 4 man tp out of mid, right in front of my team, sacrificing a tower in the process, just so I can't have one. Were it not for the necro3 my team would be better pusher than me simply because of the global berserker's call.
Still, I had tried the build last night, but the brown boots>necro>BoTs was magic at work. With everything they threw at me I still outfarmed the alchemist. +1 good sir.
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EPT
