EPT[Hero] Lycan - Page 4
| Forum Index > Dota 2 Strategy |
|
Andre
Slovenia3523 Posts
| ||
|
Russano
United States434 Posts
This build is legit, definitely feels the fastest raw farm as long as you hit all your timings. I feel like i'm hogging the courier a bit, but not really much more than a lot of bottle crowing. Usually entering the rosh pit at 10 mins with vlads, boots, medallion, smoke and hatchet. Sometimes about a minute later if my jungle was weaker. It's really difficult to lose if you are sitting on 12 min tower pushes with treads aegis vlads medallion. From there its an easy step to pick up the major item you want to win the game with. | ||
|
juracule
292 Posts
First time I try this, in an unranked match - both camps blocked either by enigma eidolons or by wards and I'm constantly getting ganked by bristleback and enigma. This is just way too risky tbh. | ||
KwarK
United States43350 Posts
On December 29 2013 23:16 juracule wrote: Why do you say that Desolator is a mid-game utility support item but do you retain a vlad's and an AC in your late-game hard carry lycan, both of which are aura items and thus can be gotten by the rest of your team? I can understand Vlad's because that's a neccesary item in the early game, but AC in itself is not a good 1# position item (neither is desolator). First time I try this, in an unranked match - both camps blocked either by enigma eidolons or by wards and I'm constantly getting ganked by bristleback and enigma. This is just way too risky tbh. That attack speed is pretty awesome when combined with basher, the survivability of Lycan is pretty huge for keeping the AC aura up, you want it midgame for the negative armour for pushing and just because you're the richest by far so it's you AC or no AC. Trading vlads for satanic is an option super late game imo but not one I like. If you have minions the vlads aura is nice, +15% damage isn't low either. Lycan is just so mobile that you kinda want the auras to follow you around. | ||
|
1015Fan
United States86 Posts
On December 29 2013 23:16 juracule wrote: Why do you say that Desolator is a mid-game utility support item but do you retain a vlad's and an AC in your late-game hard carry lycan, both of which are aura items and thus can be gotten by the rest of your team? I can understand Vlad's because that's a neccesary item in the early game, but AC in itself is not a good 1# position item (neither is desolator). First time I try this, in an unranked match - both camps blocked either by enigma eidolons or by wards and I'm constantly getting ganked by bristleback and enigma. This is just way too risky tbh. Desolator is definitely more of a mid game item, I wouldn't exactly call it a utility support item, but 100% agree with the midgame, and I think lycan shouldn't be getting it if he is playing 1. I think desolator is a very situational item on lycan good for split pushing(and some other niche things) but necrobook fills that roll much better, and regardless of whether you are core carry or not (in my opinon) necrobook is a core item on lycan due to the easy and insane split push capability and huge midgame dps. Thus deso on top of necrobook isn't really worth it and that just makes deso not really worth it at all. Lycan is also a good AC carrier, although I think heart is a easily viable alternative depending on how much you and your team need armor. AC is also undoubtedly a late game item, although i guess the aura could make it utility in a sense. Keep in mind if you are jungling lycan, there is almost certainly another carry on your team in the lane. Thus that makes lycan a very good option for AC if the laning farmer isnt going for it. I do agree with lycan being a very risky pick in general though. In games around my mmr, if a lycan is picked there is a high probability that supports will ward the jungle camps(or just pick chen/enchant offensive jungle and you are completely shut out of your own jungle), and an even higher probability that mid will pop into the jungle any time he gets an advantage or a rune, and supports will pop into the jungle with smoke or just regular roaming since lycan is a rather slow and weak hero before 6 that is often at low hp because he has to share tanking with his wolves. | ||
|
Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
| ||
|
Zenniv
United States545 Posts
| ||
|
KwarK
United States43350 Posts
| ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On December 29 2013 23:16 juracule wrote: Why do you say that Desolator is a mid-game utility support item but do you retain a vlad's and an AC in your late-game hard carry lycan, both of which are aura items and thus can be gotten by the rest of your team? I can understand Vlad's because that's a neccesary item in the early game, but AC in itself is not a good 1# position item (neither is desolator). First time I try this, in an unranked match - both camps blocked either by enigma eidolons or by wards and I'm constantly getting ganked by bristleback and enigma. This is just way too risky tbh. The thing is, Desolator's timing does not fit a timing that's good for Lycan. Right after Vlad's it's inferior to BKB or Necro, regardless of what you want to do. After BKB or Necro, you simply don't need a pure damage item. You're pretty damage heavy at that point thanks to Vlad's and BKB if you're fighting, and if you're split-pushing an aura item powers up your pushing way more because of the fact that it will also boost Necros. AC gives you Armor and Attack Speed which, after your first major item, are your biggest in-demand stats. Deso gives neither of these, and past 2nd major item, the item becomes far less appealing. "Can be gotten by the rest of your team" is not really a good argument against AC on Lycan because it's too expensive for lower position heroes to buy and Lycan is typically not picked with carries which are better AC carriers than he is. It usually works out better for Lycan to buy the AC except in drafts involving carries that REALLY want AC more badly than Lycan does (e.g. an LD+Lycan draft might prefer AC on LD rather than Lycan). | ||
|
Zavior
Finland753 Posts
| ||
|
juracule
292 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:03 TheYango wrote: The thing is, Desolator's timing does not fit a timing that's good for Lycan. Right after Vlad's it's inferior to BKB or Necro, regardless of what you want to do. After BKB or Necro, you simply don't need a pure damage item. You're pretty damage heavy at that point thanks to Vlad's and BKB if you're fighting, and if you're split-pushing an aura item powers up your pushing way more because of the fact that it will also boost Necros. AC gives you Armor and Attack Speed which, after your first major item, are your biggest in-demand stats. Deso gives neither of these, and past 2nd major item, the item becomes far less appealing. "Can be gotten by the rest of your team" is not really a good argument against AC on Lycan because it's too expensive for lower position heroes to buy and Lycan is typically not picked with carries which are better AC carriers than he is. It usually works out better for Lycan to buy the AC except in drafts involving carries that REALLY want AC more badly than Lycan does (e.g. an LD+Lycan draft might prefer AC on LD rather than Lycan). In what way does Lycan need armor after Medallion + Vlad's? You have something like 19 armor at that point.The main reason you're getting AC is for the -armor against towers and the +atk speed for your minions. Sure the +atk speed is nice but there are better options if you're going to go late-game hard carry Lycan. I feel that if you're going splitpushing lycan you should just end at 30 mins and get probs both AC and Deso for -12 armor on towers. | ||
|
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
And what else would you get for Attack Speed on Lycan at that time? Armlet's too slot-inefficient on a hero that's desperately strapped for slots, Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame, Manta's cute, but not really a good combat item (although it's actually superior to Deso if you're going the "all-out split-push" route), and Mjollnir's just underwhelming altogether. AC is just outright the best attack speed option for you, even if you are 1st position. If you are going full split-push Vlad+Necro+AC+Manta is actually going to be better than Vlad+Necro+AC+Deso because Manta allows your Necros and creep wave to retain the double aura without you being there. | ||
|
juracule
292 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:50 TheYango wrote: Medallion's armor basically doesn't count because there should virtually never be a time in a fight where you don't have that debuff on someone. And what else would you get for Attack Speed on Lycan at that time? Armlet's too slot-inefficient on a hero that's desperately strapped for slots, Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame, Manta's cute, but not really a good combat item (although it's actually superior to Deso if you're going the "all-out split-push" route), and Mjollnir's just underwhelming altogether. AC is just outright the best attack speed option for you, even if you are 1st position. If you are going full split-push Vlad+Necro+AC+Manta is actually going to be better than Vlad+Necro+AC+Deso because Manta allows your Necros and creep wave to retain the double aura without you being there. w0t What do you mean Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame? It provides more EHP than AC for an armor level higher than 2 (or 3, whatever), provides more atk speed, and the amount of damage it provides compared to ac is dependent on enemy hero armor. On top of that it counters just about anything ranging from bash to lifesteal. Armlet is slot-ineffecient? What? Where does this stigma come from that, just because armlet is cheap, it is also slot-inefficient? It synergizes even better with lycan than with most other strength heroes because of his passive (and because of vlad's, whether it's on you or on someone else late-game). Sure, ac got better after the patch where Vlad's and AC were allowed to stack but its still definitely not an item I'd like to see on my 1# position hard carry. | ||
|
winterymint
United States36 Posts
On December 30 2013 01:01 KwarK wrote: Currently exploring going brown boots into rosh then straight to necro 1 following rosh. Then BoTs into split push everywhere into necro 3. Just had a 800 gold/min game doing that. Had vlads, medallion, necro 3, BoTs, aegis and AC 23 minutes in which is quite a combo. Yep, brown boots is the way to go. Power treads not worth it especially when your ult is 522 ms. | ||
|
Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
On December 30 2013 02:43 Zavior wrote: Have you had to face a team picking 2 offlaners, one of which being bh that just follows you around in jungle? Had this exact thing happen to me  | ||
|
iokke
United States1179 Posts
edit: and some graphs + Show Spoiler + собакой в дерево (Dog in tree, "I go" is implied but u can add it if u want same way as in your original name) собакой в джунгли (Dog in jungle) псиной (can use instead of собакой, just sounds funnier to me) псом (same as above, but impies male dog) also лес = forest да, мне скучно - Yes, I am bored | ||
|
KwarK
United States43350 Posts
| ||
|
iokke
United States1179 Posts
If you're making a jungling lycan guide it's imperative that Russians understand from the start what's going on to minimize the chance of sharing the forest. Dat's like the most important part of the guide, give your readers a chance! jk, nice guide, thx | ||
|
igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
On December 30 2013 03:56 juracule wrote: w0t What do you mean Butterfly isn't more effective till super lategame? It provides more EHP than AC for an armor level higher than 2 (or 3, whatever), provides more atk speed, and the amount of damage it provides compared to ac is dependent on enemy hero armor. On top of that it counters just about anything ranging from bash to lifesteal. Armlet is slot-ineffecient? What? Where does this stigma come from that, just because armlet is cheap, it is also slot-inefficient? It synergizes even better with lycan than with most other strength heroes because of his passive (and because of vlad's, whether it's on you or on someone else late-game). Sure, ac got better after the patch where Vlad's and AC were allowed to stack but its still definitely not an item I'd like to see on my 1# position hard carry. I heard aui say that butterfly is better as a pure carry item on tiny, but I did the calculations and it's not true. 15 armor is a lot of armor, 16 and 2/3 gives you 100% more hp at 0 armor, I'd have to do the calculations for lycan but it's probably going to be close (but butterfly is more expensive). I used to play lycan a lot, and slots are really at a premium for him. Boots, vlad, tp. Then usually you have medallion (can sell, but selling it for armlet probably reduces your total dps). You often have aegis, and there's still bkb necrobook ac (usually I'd sell the medallion for ac to replace the -armor). So when ac couldn't stack with basilius type auras, I think deso was viable. You got more a little more -armor, and your team gained no armor benefit (huge), and 60 damage was better than 55 atttack speed when you had feral instinct + treads + nec aura. | ||
|
CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2673 Posts
I don't think I need to explain what it does to people when you also put a medallion on them (or towers without the debuff). I'd recommend going for BoT's afterwards since that saves you 1 item slot for a bigger item and you can also upgrade your basher into abyssal. It aint the optimal lategame build but it's not really what's it meant for either. | ||
| ||
