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On November 15 2012 11:58 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:49 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure"  Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials. NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text. We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!" Well if you are a curious one, here some more. Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany. Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies. Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though. Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there). The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them.
You are totally right, I won't dispute statements like this for one second. There is a reason why this shit is going on since forever. It is not easy to solve. It's just silly to victimize guys like the one killed in the airstrike, just read some posts above yours and realize what this guy has done. You cannot negotiate with this guys, it's senseless. They don't even recognize Israel. Just last weekend ~80 rockets hit Israel. This forces action in reality, nobody just endures that over a longer period of time without demanding retaliation. It is naive to think that.
In my opinion the only long term solution is to strengthen Fatah in the inner palestinian power struggle. If they get strong enough to destroy Hamas, there might be light at the end of tunnel. Hamas still gets used as a proxy from other states in the region (financial, political support) and has support from the palestinian public, though. Makes it very tough to get rid of them. If it is achieved somehow to get rid of Hamas magically, there are still additional problems.
Israel must be forced to compromise. Not easy, but the US could cut their founding, maybe this would work. In the current political framework of the US this won't happen though. Lobbyism from jewish side is too strong at the moment atleast. The whole situation is a huge clusterfuck and I highely doubt that I will see a permanent solution in my lifetime.
Only get annoyed at the very onesided statements here from people who think the conflict could be stopped if the state of Israel just stopped to retaliate. Totally naive thinking. What would happen in such a scenario? In one of the next elections, the people would vote for somebody who promises to roll over the palestinians. That is how the real world works. Again nobody tolerates getting shot at permanently without seeking to destroy the threat.
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On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
I disagree with everything about this post.
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On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials. NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best.
A conflict of interest where one side's objective is the elimination of the other has to be resolved by the sword. Sorry to hear you did not know this, now you do.
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On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
Im sure the people who tried to assassinate hitler didnt think the same.
I mean, who are you really? they killed a terrorist scumbag and people hurl mud at them because its an assassination. big whoop. They wont ever stop attack jews so they got every right to "defend" themselves. People think americans got it bad with the reputation. well, Isreal got that too, plus the constant threat by surrouding nations.
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On November 15 2012 12:15 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:58 Adreme wrote:On November 15 2012 11:49 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:
[quote]
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:
[quote]
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials. NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text. We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!" Well if you are a curious one, here some more. Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany. Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies. Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though. Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there). The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them. You are totally right, I won't dispute statements like this for one second. There is a reason why this shit is going on since forever. It is not easy to solve. It's just silly to victimize guys like the one killed in the airstrike, just read some posts above yours and realize what this guy has done. You cannot negotiate with this guys, it's senseless. They don't even recognize Israel. Just last weekend ~80 rockets hit Israel. This forces action in reality, nobody just endures that over a longer period of time without demanding retaliation. It is naive to think that. In my opinion the only long term solution is to strengthen Fatah in the inner palestinian power struggle. If they get strong enough to destroy Hamas, there might be light at the end of tunnel. Hamas still gets used as a proxy from other states in the region (financial, political support) and has support from the palestinian public, though. Makes it very tough to get rid of them. If it is achieved somehow to get rid of Hamas magically, there are still additional problems. Israel must be forced to compromise. Not easy, but the US could cut their founding, maybe this would work. In the current political framework of the US this won't happen though. Lobbyism from jewish side is too strong at the moment atleast. The whole situation is a huge clusterfuck and I highely doubt that I will see a permanent solution in my lifetime. Only get annoyed at the very onesided statements here from people who think the conflict could be stopped if the state of Israel just stopped to retaliate. Totally naive thinking. What would happen in such a scenario? In one of the next elections, the people would vote for somebody who promises to roll over the palestinians. That is how the real world works. Again nobody tolerates getting shot at permanently without seeking to destroy the threat.
Why must Israel be forced to compromise? These people say they do not deserve to exist!
Israel is totally justified in their actions. Remember when all Israel wanted from Egypt was to recognize them? That is all they want. And these Pales are asking for it by firing rockets. You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?"
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It's like an endless cycle of bloodshed. When will both sides be done with this constant warring?
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On November 15 2012 12:28 Schvitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:15 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:58 Adreme wrote:On November 15 2012 11:49 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]
You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials. NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text. We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!" Well if you are a curious one, here some more. Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany. Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies. Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though. Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there). The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them. You are totally right, I won't dispute statements like this for one second. There is a reason why this shit is going on since forever. It is not easy to solve. It's just silly to victimize guys like the one killed in the airstrike, just read some posts above yours and realize what this guy has done. You cannot negotiate with this guys, it's senseless. They don't even recognize Israel. Just last weekend ~80 rockets hit Israel. This forces action in reality, nobody just endures that over a longer period of time without demanding retaliation. It is naive to think that. In my opinion the only long term solution is to strengthen Fatah in the inner palestinian power struggle. If they get strong enough to destroy Hamas, there might be light at the end of tunnel. Hamas still gets used as a proxy from other states in the region (financial, political support) and has support from the palestinian public, though. Makes it very tough to get rid of them. If it is achieved somehow to get rid of Hamas magically, there are still additional problems. Israel must be forced to compromise. Not easy, but the US could cut their founding, maybe this would work. In the current political framework of the US this won't happen though. Lobbyism from jewish side is too strong at the moment atleast. The whole situation is a huge clusterfuck and I highely doubt that I will see a permanent solution in my lifetime. Only get annoyed at the very onesided statements here from people who think the conflict could be stopped if the state of Israel just stopped to retaliate. Totally naive thinking. What would happen in such a scenario? In one of the next elections, the people would vote for somebody who promises to roll over the palestinians. That is how the real world works. Again nobody tolerates getting shot at permanently without seeking to destroy the threat. Why must Israel be forced to compromise? These people say they do not deserve to exist! Israel is totally justified in their actions. Remember when all Israel wanted from Egypt was to recognize them? That is all they want. And these Pales are asking for it by firing rockets. You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?"
![[image loading]](http://www.chrishorner.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Israel-Palestine_maps1.jpg)
What is happening to Palestine is roughly equivalent to what we did to the Native Americans.
When you push a people to desperate times they revert to desperate measures. I'm not trying to justify what Hamas is doing, but to say that this isn't one of the most morally grey conflicts in our time is absolutely insane. Both sides are suffering like crazy and both sides are committing atrocities. The people in the Gaza stripped are being refused any aid from outside countries.
They are starving, they have no natural resources, they are isolated, and they have no recognition. They are a people who in a matter of less than 50 years were broken battered and destroyed by outside influence and put into a corner to slowly die away, and you expect no violent reaction?
You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?"
Oh and here I thought that was the entire premise behind peace treaties.
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We can go on and on about this topic, it is neverending. All I know is that before I was born, they were already fighting and killing each other. And I'm sure that long after I die, they will still be fighting and killing each other. Unless something extremely drastic happens.
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On November 15 2012 12:28 Schvitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:15 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:58 Adreme wrote:On November 15 2012 11:49 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]
You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials. NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text. We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!" Well if you are a curious one, here some more. Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany. Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies. Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though. Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there). The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them. You are totally right, I won't dispute statements like this for one second. There is a reason why this shit is going on since forever. It is not easy to solve. It's just silly to victimize guys like the one killed in the airstrike, just read some posts above yours and realize what this guy has done. You cannot negotiate with this guys, it's senseless. They don't even recognize Israel. Just last weekend ~80 rockets hit Israel. This forces action in reality, nobody just endures that over a longer period of time without demanding retaliation. It is naive to think that. In my opinion the only long term solution is to strengthen Fatah in the inner palestinian power struggle. If they get strong enough to destroy Hamas, there might be light at the end of tunnel. Hamas still gets used as a proxy from other states in the region (financial, political support) and has support from the palestinian public, though. Makes it very tough to get rid of them. If it is achieved somehow to get rid of Hamas magically, there are still additional problems. Israel must be forced to compromise. Not easy, but the US could cut their founding, maybe this would work. In the current political framework of the US this won't happen though. Lobbyism from jewish side is too strong at the moment atleast. The whole situation is a huge clusterfuck and I highely doubt that I will see a permanent solution in my lifetime. Only get annoyed at the very onesided statements here from people who think the conflict could be stopped if the state of Israel just stopped to retaliate. Totally naive thinking. What would happen in such a scenario? In one of the next elections, the people would vote for somebody who promises to roll over the palestinians. That is how the real world works. Again nobody tolerates getting shot at permanently without seeking to destroy the threat. Why must Israel be forced to compromise? These people say they do not deserve to exist! Israel is totally justified in their actions. Remember when all Israel wanted from Egypt was to recognize them? That is all they want. And these Pales are asking for it by firing rockets. You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?"
The only viable long term solution is the coexistence of Israel and a Palestinian state.Israel must be compromised, because Fatah actually approves Israel's existance in this region. Palestinian state under Fatah will be in a very bad negotiating position, because they are economically dependent from Israel right now and after a possible inner palestinian struggle with Hamas, the dependency will only get worse. Additionally Israel can use military threats to push their goals through. Fatah does not have this option to the same extent.
These factors would lead to very favorable negotiations and an onesided outcome for Israel which then would put the achieved compromise into danger in the long run because the Palestinians couldn't accept it permanently. So Israel must be pushed for real compromise via outside pressure.
Take into consideration that these scenarios just come into place after innerpalestinian powers, which pursue the goal of Israel's destruction, ceased to exist (hello Hamas)
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I will always support clear and concise war practice over guerilla tactics.
Why? On one side, the soldiers are uniformed, identifiable soldiers. They can be identified and as such, engaged. Guerrila tactics are employed so that casualties can be claimed as "civilians" when it comes to media and the bargaining table. Guerrila fighters are often poorly trained, and do not care about any legitimate civilian casualties.
So, we get a situation like the the current one. Israel with a clearly defined army, and it claims responsibility for its actions in combat, and the casualties. On the other side, the militants (I will refrain from calling them what they are at this time, that being terrorists) randomly attack their enemies civilian centers with wanton regard for civilian casualties, not claiming any responsibility unless it is a remarkable kill, and claiming civilian casualties when one of its own combatants is killed.
So, in this case, I support Israels efforts to force a peaceful resolution through later negotiation and concessions.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Why in the world should Palestinians compromise with Israel? If Mexico suddenly took over California and committed countless atrocities in the process, I sure as hell wouldn't deem them "legitimate," nor would I hesitate to fight back. Obviously the best course of action is a two-state solution, but people painting Hamas as some kind of devils really don't understand the history behind this decades-long conflict.
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I wish that both of them could just get along T_T
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The politics in both countries is honestly so fucked up. One side isn't any worse than the other there are religious fundamentalists on both sides with far too much power and its these guys are that refuse to compromise during peace processes and continue to attack the other. If the situations of Israel and Palestine were reversed terrible things would still continue to happen, people would just change their minds about who they think real victim is.
The worst thing is that as long as the religious fundamentalists on one side continue to have such a big influence the fundamentalists on the other side can use that as a scaremongering tactic to continue to keep up the conflict.
It makes me angry to watch these events because it seems like nobody can do anything to stop it while most people in the region are innocent bystanders to it all.
On November 15 2012 12:42 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I will always support clear and concise war practice over guerilla tactics.
Why? On one side, the soldiers are uniformed, identifiable soldiers. They can be identified and as such, engaged. Guerrila tactics are employed so that casualties can be claimed as "civilians" when it comes to media and the bargaining table. Guerrila fighters are often poorly trained, and do not care about any legitimate civilian casualties.
So, we get a situation like the the current one. Israel with a clearly defined army, and it claims responsibility for its actions in combat, and the casualties. On the other side, the militants (I will refrain from calling them what they are at this time, that being terrorists) randomly attack their enemies civilian centers with wanton regard for civilian casualties, not claiming any responsibility unless it is a remarkable kill, and claiming civilian casualties when one of its own combatants is killed.
So, in this case, I support Israels efforts to force a peaceful resolution through later negotiation and concessions.
Its not like there's really a choice for them. If they're going to fight it war it has to be a guerrilla one or they'll be crushed. What if the Vietcong had decided to fight a "clear and concise war". I'm against all the fighting, but to say you're supporting one side over another simply because they're the only ones who can afford to fight what you think a war should be is really stupid.
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On November 15 2012 12:28 Schvitzer wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:15 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:58 Adreme wrote:On November 15 2012 11:49 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]
You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials. NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text. We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!" Well if you are a curious one, here some more. Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany. Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies. Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though. Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there). The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them. You are totally right, I won't dispute statements like this for one second. There is a reason why this shit is going on since forever. It is not easy to solve. It's just silly to victimize guys like the one killed in the airstrike, just read some posts above yours and realize what this guy has done. You cannot negotiate with this guys, it's senseless. They don't even recognize Israel. Just last weekend ~80 rockets hit Israel. This forces action in reality, nobody just endures that over a longer period of time without demanding retaliation. It is naive to think that. In my opinion the only long term solution is to strengthen Fatah in the inner palestinian power struggle. If they get strong enough to destroy Hamas, there might be light at the end of tunnel. Hamas still gets used as a proxy from other states in the region (financial, political support) and has support from the palestinian public, though. Makes it very tough to get rid of them. If it is achieved somehow to get rid of Hamas magically, there are still additional problems. Israel must be forced to compromise. Not easy, but the US could cut their founding, maybe this would work. In the current political framework of the US this won't happen though. Lobbyism from jewish side is too strong at the moment atleast. The whole situation is a huge clusterfuck and I highely doubt that I will see a permanent solution in my lifetime. Only get annoyed at the very onesided statements here from people who think the conflict could be stopped if the state of Israel just stopped to retaliate. Totally naive thinking. What would happen in such a scenario? In one of the next elections, the people would vote for somebody who promises to roll over the palestinians. That is how the real world works. Again nobody tolerates getting shot at permanently without seeking to destroy the threat. Why must Israel be forced to compromise? These people say they do not deserve to exist! Israel is totally justified in their actions. Remember when all Israel wanted from Egypt was to recognize them? That is all they want. And these Pales are asking for it by firing rockets. You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?"
Some people here seriously need to expand their point of view. There is indeed justification for Israel's actions - HOWEVER there is also an equal amount of justification for Palestine's actions.
If you are able to make a list of everything that both side has done since the beginning of the conflict you will find that both sides have done some very disgusting things. This is to the point that 'self defense' is no longer a justification and it's merely 2 countries trying to destroy the other essentially - and the citizens from both sides are getting the full end of it.
There is no need to pick sides and justify their actions since both of them have done wrong for far too long. The brutal truth is that this conflict will only end when Israel eliminates all resistance from Palestine at the cost of too many innocents - to which I would say exactly the same as the first reply to this thread by Emperor_Earth.
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On November 15 2012 12:42 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I will always support clear and concise war practice over guerilla tactics.
Why? On one side, the soldiers are uniformed, identifiable soldiers. They can be identified and as such, engaged. Guerrila tactics are employed so that casualties can be claimed as "civilians" when it comes to media and the bargaining table. Guerrila fighters are often poorly trained, and do not care about any legitimate civilian casualties.
So, we get a situation like the the current one. Israel with a clearly defined army, and it claims responsibility for its actions in combat, and the casualties. On the other side, the militants (I will refrain from calling them what they are at this time, that being terrorists) randomly attack their enemies civilian centers with wonton regard for civilian casualties, not claiming any responsibility unless it is a remarkable kill, and claiming civilian casualties when one of its own combatants is killed.
So, in this case, I support Israels efforts to force a peaceful resolution through later negotiation and concessions.
I agree, wars like this are the worst kind but they are the war of the future sadly. Small nations have no other weapon against ones with more imposing military force. Guerrilla Warfare is, unfortunately, the ultimate way to fight off a force superior to you in every way. Honestly, what I think would be a really ideal scenario is if Britain and the UN went back and fixed what they fucking started. Britain, when they took control of the Ottoman territory of current day Israel ("The Holy Land") they, the British, promised the land to the Palestinians. They gave it to them, so that they could have their own national identity.
Then after the Jews got clearly fucked over hard in WW2, everyone wanted to give them the Holy Land back too. As the author Arthur Koestler, a Jew who spent some years in the area, once remarked:
"One nation promised another the land of a third nation".
Palestinians have every right to be absolutely pissed off, because they were promised a nation and then it was suddenly taken away from them. The Israeli's aren't to blame either, they were also promised a nation and it was given to them. It's our fault for meddling in that region so damn much.
On November 15 2012 12:43 Souma wrote:
Why in the world should Palestinians compromise with Israel? If Mexico suddenly took over California and committed countless atrocities in the process, I sure as hell wouldn't deem them "legitimate," nor would I hesitate to fight back. Obviously the best course of action is a two-state solution, but people painting Hamas as some kind of devils really don't understand the history behind this decades-long conflict.
I agree and I wish the UN would just intervene and get it over-with. Either a two state resolution or the complete eradication of the Palestinian people. Those are the two ONLY possible, feasible current situations and I think I know which we are wishing for.
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On November 15 2012 10:56 heliusx wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:54 LgNKami wrote:On November 15 2012 10:38 TOloseGT wrote:
And the losers of this whole conflict is...you guessed it, the civilians on both sides. Sound about right. Pretty soon, im sure we'll be involved too. Im starting to think that 12/21/12 thing wasnt much of a lie now. Involved? how? Israel could wipe out 10 palestines alone.
They've been doing shit like this for a while i think, we havent got involved yet.
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Arabs make me facepalm more and more. Almost all of the countries are now pretty Islamified (and unfortunately the US has played a critical role in undermining secularism in the Mideast, such as backing Islamist dictatorships in the Arabian peninsula and overthrowing secular regimes to be replaced immediately or eventually by Islamic ones) and are just getting more and more idiotic. It almost makes me think favorably of Israeli policy.
On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials. NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference.
Most Jews in Israel come from Europe lol... XD
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On November 15 2012 12:36 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:28 Schvitzer wrote:On November 15 2012 12:15 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:58 Adreme wrote:On November 15 2012 11:49 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
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Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:[quote] Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. [quote] NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text. We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!" Well if you are a curious one, here some more. Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany. Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies. Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though. Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there). The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them. You are totally right, I won't dispute statements like this for one second. There is a reason why this shit is going on since forever. It is not easy to solve. It's just silly to victimize guys like the one killed in the airstrike, just read some posts above yours and realize what this guy has done. You cannot negotiate with this guys, it's senseless. They don't even recognize Israel. Just last weekend ~80 rockets hit Israel. This forces action in reality, nobody just endures that over a longer period of time without demanding retaliation. It is naive to think that. In my opinion the only long term solution is to strengthen Fatah in the inner palestinian power struggle. If they get strong enough to destroy Hamas, there might be light at the end of tunnel. Hamas still gets used as a proxy from other states in the region (financial, political support) and has support from the palestinian public, though. Makes it very tough to get rid of them. If it is achieved somehow to get rid of Hamas magically, there are still additional problems. Israel must be forced to compromise. Not easy, but the US could cut their founding, maybe this would work. In the current political framework of the US this won't happen though. Lobbyism from jewish side is too strong at the moment atleast. The whole situation is a huge clusterfuck and I highely doubt that I will see a permanent solution in my lifetime. Only get annoyed at the very onesided statements here from people who think the conflict could be stopped if the state of Israel just stopped to retaliate. Totally naive thinking. What would happen in such a scenario? In one of the next elections, the people would vote for somebody who promises to roll over the palestinians. That is how the real world works. Again nobody tolerates getting shot at permanently without seeking to destroy the threat. Why must Israel be forced to compromise? These people say they do not deserve to exist! Israel is totally justified in their actions. Remember when all Israel wanted from Egypt was to recognize them? That is all they want. And these Pales are asking for it by firing rockets. You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?" What is happening to Palestine is roughly equivalent to what we did to the Native Americans. When you push a people to desperate times they revert to desperate measures. I'm not trying to justify what Hamas is doing, but to say that this isn't one of the most morally grey conflicts in our time is absolutely insane. Both sides are suffering like crazy and both sides are committing atrocities. The people in the Gaza stripped are being refused any aid from outside countries. They are starving, they have no natural resources, they are isolated, and they have no recognition. They are a people who in a matter of less than 50 years were broken battered and destroyed by outside influence and put into a corner to slowly die away, and you expect no violent reaction? Oh and here I thought that was the entire premise behind peace treaties.
Exactly. Pro-Israeli people can talk about how they have the right to self-defense until they are blue in the face, but Israel just keeps taking more and more land for themselves. It isn't like Israel is just minding their own business then all of a sudden 80 missiles are launched against them unprovoked. Neither side is in the right. Sure I guess eventually if they try hard enough they can wipe out Palestine completely and end the conflict by slowly taking everything away (which seems to be the plan). Just doesn't seem like that is the most moral or humanitarian avenue to take.
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On November 15 2012 12:49 Fruscainte wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:42 Grimmyman123 wrote:
I will always support clear and concise war practice over guerilla tactics.
Why? On one side, the soldiers are uniformed, identifiable soldiers. They can be identified and as such, engaged. Guerrila tactics are employed so that casualties can be claimed as "civilians" when it comes to media and the bargaining table. Guerrila fighters are often poorly trained, and do not care about any legitimate civilian casualties.
So, we get a situation like the the current one. Israel with a clearly defined army, and it claims responsibility for its actions in combat, and the casualties. On the other side, the militants (I will refrain from calling them what they are at this time, that being terrorists) randomly attack their enemies civilian centers with wonton regard for civilian casualties, not claiming any responsibility unless it is a remarkable kill, and claiming civilian casualties when one of its own combatants is killed.
So, in this case, I support Israels efforts to force a peaceful resolution through later negotiation and concessions. I agree, wars like this are the worst kind but they are the war of the future sadly. Small nations have no other weapon against ones with more imposing military force. Guerrilla Warfare is, unfortunately, the ultimate way to fight off a force superior to you in every way. Honestly, what I think would be a really ideal scenario is if Britain and the UN went back and fixed what they fucking started. Britain, when they took control of the Ottoman territory of current day Israel ("The Holy Land") they, the British, promised the land to the Palestinians. They gave it to them, so that they could have their own national identity. \ I agree and I wish the UN would just intervene and get it over-with. Either a two state resolution or the complete eradication of the Palestinian people. Those are the two ONLY possible, feasible current situations and I think I know which we are wishing for.
I hate how amidst all this conflict, Britain, the country that started this mess, gets away scotch-free, no consequences for their action. It just reminds me of how atrociously unfair this world is.
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On November 15 2012 12:27 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. Im sure the people who tried to assassinate hitler didnt think the same. I mean, who are you really? they killed a terrorist scumbag and people hurl mud at them because its an assassination. big whoop. They wont ever stop attack jews so they got every right to "defend" themselves. People think americans got it bad with the reputation. well, Isreal got that too, plus the constant threat by surrouding nations.
Can you please tell me the number of Israeli citizen's killed by 'constant threat by surrounding nations' + Hamas rockets. Now compare that to the amount of Civilians killed in Gaza. Israel has the right to react but not with 100x the force, when a father loses his daughter to an Israeli strike, then almost guaranteed he will fight back; no other factors in play. The conflict is just prolonged and more civilian life is lost, maybe if the UN let Palestine's bid for statehood go through, the ball may have stared rolling but right now we are no where near any peace agreement in the region.
Edit: The Complete eradication of the Palestinian people would not be a smart decision by Israel as it will cause an uproar throughout the rest of the Muslim World, leading to US stepping in and a big mess.
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EPT
