On November 15 2012 11:04 CajunMan wrote: Good too bad they didn't smoke the entire city block to make sure. When you have the chance to kill a terrorist and his buddies it's time to go ham on him. GG no re hamas
On November 15 2012 10:44 Probe1 wrote:
A few hours ago, Israeli IDF planes launched a strike on the Gaza strip in attempt to assassinate a Hamas leader, Ahmed al-Jabari. They succeeded, obliterating his car with him inside.
At this point it was well over 12 hours ago. But whatever that doesn't matter I'm just being lame.
I am confident that this will result in open war. I can't say Israel was unwarranted in their response to the continued attacks on her soil but this will result in war and more deaths. Is there really no diplomatic end? War will only strengthen the resolve of those that will harm Israeli civilians to further their goals. In the end it is a choice of who loses more civilians.
It is one of the great tragedies of my lifetime.
Open war with who? Isreal beats any middle eastern country in open war hell last time they beat 3
Correction, the United States beats any Middle Eastern country. If you recall the entire support structure of the IDF was created and supported by the US. It's like walking onto a playground with a fight occurring and the teacher gives a baseball bat to a student and he beats the shit out of everyone.
To be fair we gave them that bat when the soviets gave all the arab nations soviet bats as well. A lot of what isreal use's to impose its will on the region are leftovers from the cold war and the industries that were spawned from them.
That is a fair assertion but it's more like :D to keep this fun analogy going, the Soviet Union gave them all sticks while Israel got the Bat haha :D but I know what you're referring to.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace.
Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine.
Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated.
No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French.
Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses.
On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials.
NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you.
Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF.
Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too.
Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI.
Get real, this is getting pathetic at best.
Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people.
They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace.
Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine.
Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated.
No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French.
Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword.
On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses.
On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials.
NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you.
Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF.
Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too.
Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI.
Get real, this is getting pathetic at best.
Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people.
They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference.
Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews.
Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text.
We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!"
The position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice.
Israel is a party to the Geneva Conventions, and bound by its obligations.
But its government argues that the international conventions relating to occupied land do not apply to the Palestinian territories because they were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state in the first place.
Israel has over the years often chosen to use the term administered territories to refer to Gaza and the West Bank. It has annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem.
Israel therefore denies the formal, de jure, applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention in the occupied territories.
Remember, you only have international rights if other countries say so.
The position that the 4th Geneva Convention does apply to the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights is supported by the International Committee of the Red Cross, UN bodies, and the International Court of Justice.
Israel is a party to the Geneva Conventions, and bound by its obligations.
But its government argues that the international conventions relating to occupied land do not apply to the Palestinian territories because they were not under the legitimate sovereignty of any state in the first place.
Israel has over the years often chosen to use the term administered territories to refer to Gaza and the West Bank. It has annexed the Golan and East Jerusalem.
Israel therefore denies the formal, de jure, applicability of the 4th Geneva Convention in the occupied territories.
Remember, you only have international rights if other countries say so.
We already know how bull shit this is since the US vetoed Palestine's existence in 1973 and has since for the past 4 decades.
On November 15 2012 11:29 Derez wrote: It's sad that strikes like this are considered justified under current international practices.
I'm not blaming the Israeli's or anything, they're just following a standard set by the rest of the Western world.
No, they aren't. America finds a loophole and vetoes their existence just because they say so, it's equivalent to a kid inviting other people to play a game and making up the rules just because he's the biggest bully. Only the game is murder.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
I think that you do not fully understand the philosophy of how the threat of war will lead to peace. If somebody decides that they are at war with you, then you saying that you are at peace just doesn't work out. You are at war, not by national choice. How many times and for how many years should Israel take the sucker punches, and do nothing? How many times should they allow themselves to be attacked and retaliate with only one missile? To be honest, peace isn't working for Israel. It's time to see how putting warheads on foreheads works for them instead.
In 2001, Bush declares war on terrorism. Two years later, the United States invades Iraq and overthrows Saddam Hussein. Qaddafi renounces terrorism and agrees to dismantle his WMD program within a year.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses.
On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials.
NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you.
Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF.
Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi movement, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too.
Ding Ding you reached the Godwin point and thus lost. I'm sorry.
On November 15 2012 11:29 Derez wrote: It's sad that strikes like this are considered justified under current international practices.
I'm not blaming the Israeli's or anything, they're just following a standard set by the rest of the Western world.
It is a sad principle not only because it takes away innocent lives but it is very very counter-productive especially for Israel/America. For every Drone/airstrike they do to eliminate 1 combatant, they are creating 5-10 more combatants due to the civilian casualties.
People need to ask themselves what they would do if their mother, father brother, best friend, or their entire family was killed for no reason except for being at the wrong place at the wrong time? When you have lost this much, its very easily to be a combatant. I also don't see either side letting down for a long time either.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace.
Do some actual research into the history of Hamas / Hezbollah and why they were formed, they were democratically elected into office following a previous government's inability to retaliate or protect its own civilians to Israeli aggression. The rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel ceased when Israel ceased firing during a temporary cease fire, and Israel is the party that instigated it, not the other way around. The only reason why these democratically elected parties are labeled terrorists is because they are on the wrong side, if you took away the names and locations and simply judged the actions on their own "X party launched rockets into Y's territory today, breaking the cease fire and Y retaliated", "X party bombed Y's territory killing its elected leader", etc; you might figure out that both sides have at least equal blame and both parties deserve to be labeled terrorists.
What is also obvious is the party that's subjugating the other party, encroaching on its land, forcibly bull dozing down people's houses and building new settlements every month, violating the internationally agreed lines, building prison walls and watch towers and preventing passage between the subjugated party's own territory, etc etc etc. Figure shit out yourself before posting ignorant crap.
I really hate these threads. I don't hate them because they don't discuss relevant events, I hate them because the truth doesnt ever really show it's just peoples opinions, not even facts in history. The fact is that about 80 missiles hit Israel from Gaza last weekend. This was a retaliation for that attack, the IDF and various other pro-israel status updaters posted that there were 80 missiles that hit israel over the weekend, on various applications. The mainstream media (yahoo) had that as a link at the very bottom of the page on the second part of international news. This was retaliation for that attack after the Palestinian attempted attacks, especially after Palestine was relatively quiet and peaceful for a bit because of their attempt to get into the U.N. Also no, they are not democratically elected according to modern terms, women and non-islamic people are not allowed to vote. Also I think you could do some actual research, past what mainstream media says, since on this subject they are overwhelmingly wrong. Do some simple research into how Israel came to be, how these movements and where the word Palestinian came from, etc. You will find that the issues are much less black and white than you make them.
One party is infact not subjugating the other. Furthermore your reductionist statements are bothering since you state them so matter of factly. You overlook the bombs sent into israel each weekend, you overlook the normal "acts of war" and "acts of aggression" that would normally constitute retributiong that Israel is for some reason not allowed. You treat this man like a saint, he killed three israelis, two of which were childrenhe bombed a school bus with israeli children on it. If he were American or Canadian that would be an enormity of jail time, he got 13 years because of international pressure. Furthermore, he helped orchestrate the shooting of 100 rockets into israel this weekend, last I checked thats an act of war from an independent country. If you want, here is a quick synopsis about the man you are defending.
EDIT: Replaced the killed three people part, he actually did worse, so I'm just going to change it so as to explain the depth of his actions.
Well despite all the justified negativity, on the bright side, at least only 5 civilians were killed in an attack that struck over 20 targets. Probably could have been much worse. Still a shame nonetheless.
On November 15 2012 11:36 Orchead wrote: To be honest, peace isn't working for Israel. It's time to see how putting warheads on foreheads works for them instead.
Huh? Hasn't Israel been putting ... warheads to foreheads ... for quite some time now? I'm not opining here, just stating a fact.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace.
Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine.
Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated.
No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French.
Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword.
On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses.
On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials.
NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you.
Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF.
Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too.
Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI.
Get real, this is getting pathetic at best.
Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people.
They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference.
Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews.
Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text.
We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!"
Well if you are a curious one, here some more.
Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany.
Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies.
Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though.
Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there).
On November 15 2012 11:04 CajunMan wrote: Good too bad they didn't smoke the entire city block to make sure. When you have the chance to kill a terrorist and his buddies it's time to go ham on him. GG no re hamas
On November 15 2012 10:44 Probe1 wrote:
A few hours ago, Israeli IDF planes launched a strike on the Gaza strip in attempt to assassinate a Hamas leader, Ahmed al-Jabari. They succeeded, obliterating his car with him inside.
At this point it was well over 12 hours ago. But whatever that doesn't matter I'm just being lame.
I am confident that this will result in open war. I can't say Israel was unwarranted in their response to the continued attacks on her soil but this will result in war and more deaths. Is there really no diplomatic end? War will only strengthen the resolve of those that will harm Israeli civilians to further their goals. In the end it is a choice of who loses more civilians.
It is one of the great tragedies of my lifetime.
Open war with who? Isreal beats any middle eastern country in open war hell last time they beat 3
yeah bro, then we can nuke the entire region also. just to be sure ya know? jesus christ literally all your posts in political threads are retarded flame bait. you have an issue with intelligence. you fulfill a stereotype that shouldn't exist in any slightly educated person.
Honestly, sometimes I feel like that's the best solution, to make Jerusalem so inhabitable that nobody can claim it.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace.
Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine.
Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated.
No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French.
Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword.
On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure" Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses.
On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials.
NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you.
Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF.
Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too.
Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI.
Get real, this is getting pathetic at best.
Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people.
They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference.
Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews.
Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text.
We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!"
Well if you are a curious one, here some more.
Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany.
Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies.
Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though.
Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there).
The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them.
On November 15 2012 11:04 CajunMan wrote: Good too bad they didn't smoke the entire city block to make sure. When you have the chance to kill a terrorist and his buddies it's time to go ham on him. GG no re hamas
On November 15 2012 10:44 Probe1 wrote:
A few hours ago, Israeli IDF planes launched a strike on the Gaza strip in attempt to assassinate a Hamas leader, Ahmed al-Jabari. They succeeded, obliterating his car with him inside.
At this point it was well over 12 hours ago. But whatever that doesn't matter I'm just being lame.
I am confident that this will result in open war. I can't say Israel was unwarranted in their response to the continued attacks on her soil but this will result in war and more deaths. Is there really no diplomatic end? War will only strengthen the resolve of those that will harm Israeli civilians to further their goals. In the end it is a choice of who loses more civilians.
It is one of the great tragedies of my lifetime.
Open war with who? Isreal beats any middle eastern country in open war hell last time they beat 3
Correction, the United States beats any Middle Eastern country. If you recall the entire support structure of the IDF was created and supported by the US. It's like walking onto a playground with a fight occuring and the teacher gives a baseball bat to a student and he beats the shit out of everyone.
The teacher? No its more like big brother(USA) has taught their little brother(Isreal) how to defend themselves because Dad(England) sent them to rough school and then left town.
Besides is not offers havent been made, but you can't reason with unreasonable people. And when one group is on the record as wanting nothing except the total destruction of you and yours, you go punch that guy in the mouth.
Best defense is a good offense, and if the civies are tired of the things happening because their leaders are unreasonable, then its time for new leaders.
On November 15 2012 11:36 Orchead wrote: To be honest, peace isn't working for Israel. It's time to see how putting warheads on foreheads works for them instead.
Huh? Hasn't Israel been putting ... warheads to foreheads ... for quite some time now? I'm not opining here, just stating a fact.
Israel has tried the method of peace under previous leadership. yitzhak rabin tried it, and olmert tried it by selling back land. It really didn't work. I think it was Barak that was going to give Hamas pretty much a very large majority of what Hamas wanted and I forget which leader of Hamas it was, but they refused the offer at the Camp David summit which was the turning point in Israeli politics from giving in to becoming as defiant as the past.
On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote: Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it.
You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive.
I think that you do not fully understand the philosophy of how the threat of war will lead to peace. If somebody decides that they are at war with you, then you saying that you are at peace just doesn't work out. You are at war, not by national choice. How many times and for how many years should Israel take the sucker punches, and do nothing? How many times should they allow themselves to be attacked and retaliate with only one missile? To be honest, peace isn't working for Israel. It's time to see how putting warheads on foreheads works for them instead.
Doesn't seem like you're in favour of sparring human lives. It's true that your definition of peace is an inadequate response to aggression, and that people are dying because of the indecision, but there is no correct way to deal with this political mess. And on top of that, it seems like you're saying that Israel has nothing to do with the reason why there is ongoing unrest in the region in the first place, like if Israel was innocent or that Israel never instigated anything. Let's not go too far him warheads now...
EPT
