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On November 15 2012 13:00 Chytilova wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:36 Fruscainte wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.chrishorner.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Israel-Palestine_maps1.jpg) What is happening to Palestine is roughly equivalent to what we did to the Native Americans. When you push a people to desperate times they revert to desperate measures. I'm not trying to justify what Hamas is doing, but to say that this isn't one of the most morally grey conflicts in our time is absolutely insane. Both sides are suffering like crazy and both sides are committing atrocities. The people in the Gaza stripped are being refused any aid from outside countries. They are starving, they have no natural resources, they are isolated, and they have no recognition. They are a people who in a matter of less than 50 years were broken battered and destroyed by outside influence and put into a corner to slowly die away, and you expect no violent reaction? You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?" Oh and here I thought that was the entire premise behind peace treaties. Exactly. Pro-Israeli people can talk about how they have the right to self-defense until they are blue in the face, but Israel just keeps taking more and more land for themselves. It isn't like Israel is just minding their own business then all of a sudden 80 missiles are launched against them unprovoked. Neither side is in the right. Sure I guess eventually if they try hard enough they can wipe out Palestine completely and end the conflict by slowly taking everything away (which seems to be the plan). Just doesn't seem like that is the most moral or humanitarian avenue to take.
Just ignore my earlier posts, thats ok. If you want I can supply pictures that the IDF has about the number of bombs shot out over the last 12 years (its 12000 recorded by them or some astronomical number close to that). This is not at all similar to the U.S. subjugation of native americans. I'm kind of flabberghasted by that logic. I don't even know where some of these arguments are coming from. Not only is it not at all similar, you all are completely disregarging Israel's call for peace talks and the aggression on the side of Hamas and Hezbollah which call for the killing of all jews. I'm just so confused how such an argument could even be hypothesized if one was to know the history of the conflict.
EDIT: for those of you who do not appreciate the event that Israel reacted to, here is a video of what it looked like, those are real bombs btw, they aren't fake, pixie dust. They are meant to kill Israelis, also when the guy says what sounds like Yaesh Od, that means, "there are more." I'm not pro-aggression, I'm against people making unfounded arguments that are not just incredibly biased but outright fallacious.
Here you go
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I wonder if people realize that if conflicts keep going on, more innocents will die than the single digit ones that died in assassinations and shit.
Anyway, that whole area will indefinitely have conflict and it'll never get close to being resolved. They'll just herpderp back and forth. I do wonder if some of the more powerful countries stepped in and heavily enforced the situation in one way or another if it would get better. Though, who knows what kind of shit that would stir.
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Australia8532 Posts
On November 15 2012 13:00 Chytilova wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 12:36 Fruscainte wrote:On November 15 2012 12:28 Schvitzer wrote:On November 15 2012 12:15 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:58 Adreme wrote:On November 15 2012 11:49 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:
[quote]
Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:
[quote]
Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text. We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!" Well if you are a curious one, here some more. Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany. Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies. Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though. Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there). The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them. You are totally right, I won't dispute statements like this for one second. There is a reason why this shit is going on since forever. It is not easy to solve. It's just silly to victimize guys like the one killed in the airstrike, just read some posts above yours and realize what this guy has done. You cannot negotiate with this guys, it's senseless. They don't even recognize Israel. Just last weekend ~80 rockets hit Israel. This forces action in reality, nobody just endures that over a longer period of time without demanding retaliation. It is naive to think that. In my opinion the only long term solution is to strengthen Fatah in the inner palestinian power struggle. If they get strong enough to destroy Hamas, there might be light at the end of tunnel. Hamas still gets used as a proxy from other states in the region (financial, political support) and has support from the palestinian public, though. Makes it very tough to get rid of them. If it is achieved somehow to get rid of Hamas magically, there are still additional problems. Israel must be forced to compromise. Not easy, but the US could cut their founding, maybe this would work. In the current political framework of the US this won't happen though. Lobbyism from jewish side is too strong at the moment atleast. The whole situation is a huge clusterfuck and I highely doubt that I will see a permanent solution in my lifetime. Only get annoyed at the very onesided statements here from people who think the conflict could be stopped if the state of Israel just stopped to retaliate. Totally naive thinking. What would happen in such a scenario? In one of the next elections, the people would vote for somebody who promises to roll over the palestinians. That is how the real world works. Again nobody tolerates getting shot at permanently without seeking to destroy the threat. Why must Israel be forced to compromise? These people say they do not deserve to exist! Israel is totally justified in their actions. Remember when all Israel wanted from Egypt was to recognize them? That is all they want. And these Pales are asking for it by firing rockets. You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?" What is happening to Palestine is roughly equivalent to what we did to the Native Americans. When you push a people to desperate times they revert to desperate measures. I'm not trying to justify what Hamas is doing, but to say that this isn't one of the most morally grey conflicts in our time is absolutely insane. Both sides are suffering like crazy and both sides are committing atrocities. The people in the Gaza stripped are being refused any aid from outside countries. They are starving, they have no natural resources, they are isolated, and they have no recognition. They are a people who in a matter of less than 50 years were broken battered and destroyed by outside influence and put into a corner to slowly die away, and you expect no violent reaction? You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?" Oh and here I thought that was the entire premise behind peace treaties. Exactly. Pro-Israeli people can talk about how they have the right to self-defense until they are blue in the face, but Israel just keeps taking more and more land for themselves. It isn't like Israel is just minding their own business then all of a sudden 80 missiles are launched against them unprovoked. Neither side is in the right. Sure I guess eventually if they try hard enough they can wipe out Palestine completely and end the conflict by slowly taking everything away (which seems to be the plan). Just doesn't seem like that is the most moral or humanitarian avenue to take.
You do know Israel unilaterally (yes, unilaterally) withdrew from Gaza at an attempt to progress towards peace. You can look at Gaza at a test case for what would happen with a two-state solution in this current climate. The Palestinian people elect an internationally recognised terrorist organisation that is almost corrupt as Fatah (yeah the choice suck) which then proceeds to fire 13,000 rockets into Israel.
The fact that this air strike killed a military leader is the very definition of the difference between these two sides. How many Israeli military leaders do you think live in Sderot? Zero.
I disagree 1000000000% with the settlements in the West Bank and Netanyahu's refusal to freeze production and return to the negotiation table. But don't use that as a fucking excuse for firing rockets into a civilian town.
How many rockets do you think the US would tolerate? If Mexico launched ONE missile into US territory, what do you think would happen? Or any country in the fucking world for that matter. So don't mind me if i scream self-defence till i go blue in the face.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Palestinians don't want "peace." They want their home back. How lovely would it be if the U.S. took over half of Mexico then said, "Hey, guys, we want peace!"
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United States24807 Posts
On November 15 2012 13:19 Souma wrote:
Palestinians don't want "peace." They want their home back. How lovely would it be if the U.S. took over half of Mexico then said, "Hey, guys, we want peace!"
Both sides want this also. Neither side is wrong for wanting to live in the area... otherwise this would be a simple issue.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 15 2012 13:20 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 13:19 Souma wrote:
Palestinians don't want "peace." They want their home back. How lovely would it be if the U.S. took over half of Mexico then said, "Hey, guys, we want peace!" Both sides want this also. Neither side is wrong for wanting to live in the area... otherwise this would be a simple issue.
Never said it was simple. Just saying it's stupid to blackball Palestinians when obviously, they are not just shooting rockets for no reason.
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How many rockets do you think the US would tolerate? If Mexico launched ONE missile into US territory, what do you think would happen? Or any country in the fucking world for that matter. So don't mind me if i scream self-defence till i go blue in the face.
I would hope that the US would take a more measured approach to 1 rocket, i.e they would kill the people responsible via a tactical team in a similar way to how you got osama. Not kill 4 innocent people with an air strike.
I'm all for self defence, but Israel would serve itself better by taking these guys out clean rather than taking out children with him. It just fuels the fire. Killing a political/military figure is generally seen, on both sides, as somewhat fair game, whenever one side kills innocents, its universally considered to be unjust. Both sides are basically shooting themselves in the foot.
There is only one way I see this conflict ending, I hope I'm wrong but it is with Israel wiping Palestine off the map. Israel has nuclear capability, an military training to rival (and in some areas surpass) the USA, UK etc. They can take out Palestine any time they want but atm the will of the international community keeps them from doing it. Eventually though, they will just run out of patience and do it.
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Australia8532 Posts
On November 15 2012 13:22 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 13:20 micronesia wrote:On November 15 2012 13:19 Souma wrote:
Palestinians don't want "peace." They want their home back. How lovely would it be if the U.S. took over half of Mexico then said, "Hey, guys, we want peace!" Both sides want this also. Neither side is wrong for wanting to live in the area... otherwise this would be a simple issue. Never said it was simple. Just saying it's stupid to blackball Palestinians when obviously, they are not just shooting rockets for no reason.
I think terminology is important. The average Palestinian probably isn't interested in rockets, or war, or anything like that. Hamas however...
Anyway, why are they shooting rockets into civilian territory?
On November 15 2012 13:24 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +
How many rockets do you think the US would tolerate? If Mexico launched ONE missile into US territory, what do you think would happen? Or any country in the fucking world for that matter. So don't mind me if i scream self-defence till i go blue in the face.
I would hope that the US would take a more measured approach to 1 rocket, i.e they would kill the people responsible via a tactical team in a similar way to how you got osama. Not kill 4 innocent people with an air strike. I'm all for self defence, but Israel would serve itself better by taking these guys out clean rather than taking out children with him. It just fuels the fire. Killing a political/military figure is generally seen, on both sides, as somewhat fair game, whenever one side kills innocents, its universally considered to be unjust. Both sides are basically shooting themselves in the foot. There is only one way I see this conflict ending, I hope I'm wrong but it is with Israel wiping Palestine off the map. Israel has nuclear capability, an military training to rival (and in some areas surpass) the USA, UK etc. They can take out Palestine any time they want but atm the will of the international community keeps them from doing it. Eventually though, they will just run out of patience and do it.
LOL "How they got Osama" you realise they invaded an entiry country and bombed the crap out of it's neighbour to "get Osama" - not as tactical as you imply.
There is documented evidence showing Hamas terrorist leaders firing rockets from Kindergartens, hiding behind civilians while engaging in firefights and holding tactical meetings in densely civilian populated region. International law addresses this issue quite clearly about who is responsible.
Souma said Palestinian's don't want peace, they want their homes back. That may be true. However, when it comes to Hamas, I believe they want the destruction of Israel more than they want peace.
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On November 15 2012 13:15 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 13:00 Chytilova wrote:On November 15 2012 12:36 Fruscainte wrote:On November 15 2012 12:28 Schvitzer wrote:On November 15 2012 12:15 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:58 Adreme wrote:On November 15 2012 11:49 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:22 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
[quote]
No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French.
Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword.
[quote]
Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI.
Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. Holy shit... So it is just because they want to kill the other side. Well good we cleared that up :D For a second I thought you might of actually had some form of a valid point hidden in your paragraphs of text. We can move along now, AngryMag infers that the goal of killing another side makes you equitable to another faction doing similar things at a different timezone : D and makes no other connections but "X involved, must be Y!" Well if you are a curious one, here some more. Hamas demands exclusive authority claim That is the reason why Fatah-Israel treatments are not honoured and why you see inner palestinian power struggles from time to time. This struggle between Hamas and other authorities (Fatah, earlier PLO under Arafat). Opposition is not tolerated and Hamas demands the sole power position. Very strict dictatory thinking, similar to Nazi Germany. Hamas is a bottom up movement. Gained support through the installation of social services etc. Used this support to expand political and societal influence. Process gets fastened up by using violence against perceived inner and outer enemies. Major difference is the religous element, which is atleast an important, maybe the most important, part of Hamas, though. Similarities are definately there and as long as Hamas doesn't depart from their goal of the destruction of Israel and the deportation, or killing if dismissed from the jewish side, from the jewish inhabitants of the middle east, there will be no ground for negotiations. You can whine and moan about Israel all you want, it's easy, you live thousands of miles away from these nutcases and hindsight is always a nice way to look super smart. In the end noone can blame Israel for actions taken against Hamas, sure some are wrong morally, but as long as Hamas doesn't let go from it's extreme ideology, Israel is not to blame for actions taken with the goal of destroying Hamas (and NOT all the palestinians there). The only thing Israel is doing is making more people want to join Hamas. Take out the names and if you are living in an area where one power is giving you food and schooling and the other is bombing you then you are going to sympathize with the former. Israel might have a perfectly noble goal but its meathods of achieving it do nothing but hamper them every step of the way and cause it to gain enemies not reduce them. You are totally right, I won't dispute statements like this for one second. There is a reason why this shit is going on since forever. It is not easy to solve. It's just silly to victimize guys like the one killed in the airstrike, just read some posts above yours and realize what this guy has done. You cannot negotiate with this guys, it's senseless. They don't even recognize Israel. Just last weekend ~80 rockets hit Israel. This forces action in reality, nobody just endures that over a longer period of time without demanding retaliation. It is naive to think that. In my opinion the only long term solution is to strengthen Fatah in the inner palestinian power struggle. If they get strong enough to destroy Hamas, there might be light at the end of tunnel. Hamas still gets used as a proxy from other states in the region (financial, political support) and has support from the palestinian public, though. Makes it very tough to get rid of them. If it is achieved somehow to get rid of Hamas magically, there are still additional problems. Israel must be forced to compromise. Not easy, but the US could cut their founding, maybe this would work. In the current political framework of the US this won't happen though. Lobbyism from jewish side is too strong at the moment atleast. The whole situation is a huge clusterfuck and I highely doubt that I will see a permanent solution in my lifetime. Only get annoyed at the very onesided statements here from people who think the conflict could be stopped if the state of Israel just stopped to retaliate. Totally naive thinking. What would happen in such a scenario? In one of the next elections, the people would vote for somebody who promises to roll over the palestinians. That is how the real world works. Again nobody tolerates getting shot at permanently without seeking to destroy the threat. Why must Israel be forced to compromise? These people say they do not deserve to exist! Israel is totally justified in their actions. Remember when all Israel wanted from Egypt was to recognize them? That is all they want. And these Pales are asking for it by firing rockets. You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?" What is happening to Palestine is roughly equivalent to what we did to the Native Americans. When you push a people to desperate times they revert to desperate measures. I'm not trying to justify what Hamas is doing, but to say that this isn't one of the most morally grey conflicts in our time is absolutely insane. Both sides are suffering like crazy and both sides are committing atrocities. The people in the Gaza stripped are being refused any aid from outside countries. They are starving, they have no natural resources, they are isolated, and they have no recognition. They are a people who in a matter of less than 50 years were broken battered and destroyed by outside influence and put into a corner to slowly die away, and you expect no violent reaction? You cannot say "Oh its okay to try to attack me, can we be friends now?" Oh and here I thought that was the entire premise behind peace treaties. Exactly. Pro-Israeli people can talk about how they have the right to self-defense until they are blue in the face, but Israel just keeps taking more and more land for themselves. It isn't like Israel is just minding their own business then all of a sudden 80 missiles are launched against them unprovoked. Neither side is in the right. Sure I guess eventually if they try hard enough they can wipe out Palestine completely and end the conflict by slowly taking everything away (which seems to be the plan). Just doesn't seem like that is the most moral or humanitarian avenue to take. You do know Israel unilaterally (yes, unilaterally) withdrew from Gaza at an attempt to progress towards peace. You can look at Gaza at a test case for what would happen with a two-state solution in this current climate. The Palestinian people elect an internationally recognised terrorist organisation that is almost corrupt as Fatah (yeah the choice suck) which then proceeds to fire 13,000 rockets into Israel. The fact that this air strike killed a military leader is the very definition of the difference between these two sides. How many Israeli military leaders do you think live in Sderot? Zero. I disagree 1000000000% with the settlements in the West Bank and Netanyahu's refusal to freeze production and return to the negotiation table. But don't use that as a fucking excuse for firing rockets into a civilian town. How many rockets do you think the US would tolerate? If Mexico launched ONE missile into US territory, what do you think would happen? Or any country in the fucking world for that matter. So don't mind me if i scream self-defence till i go blue in the face.
That's a faulty analogy considering we did not just now take all of Mexico's lands. Do you blame the native americans in the 1800's for fighting back against American settlers when we were colonizing their land? Should we have just eradicated all of the native americans instead of giving them their own land and recognizing them and making peace with them?
This isn't some established power attacking another established power. This is a people that were promised land having its land taken away by another people who were promised the same land by the same people, and both sides want the land and both sides have committed terrible atrocities to attain that land. Except the people who were promised it first were there for just a bit earlier than the second ones. I think you can fill in the X's here.
While we're talking about how bad the Palestinians are for shooting rockets into a Civilian town how about we talk about Israel using White Phosphorous in densely populated areas in 2008? Or them bulldozing down entire towns full of civilians? I'm not trying to play bleeding heart for the Palestinians here but holy shit, it's clear both sides have such an incredible hatred for each other that no solution can come through at this point between the two other than complete annihilation of the other. Like an above poster said. Once a father watches a rocket kill his daughter or has a family loses a loved one in the hospital when it's blown up by an Israeli rocket there is no peace between those two parties, let's just make that much clear.
The ONLY solution is for the UN to recognize Palestine as a State, to intervene and create a two state agreement. Fuck, force a DMZ of sorts if you have to and strictly enforce this treaty because too many people are dying over such a petty fucking fight. Both sides are wrong, both sides should be punished but both sides should be given the land they were promised. I'd bet all $400 to my name that there have been innumerable amounts of war crimes on both sides here and it's time it stopped.
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Good Luck to anyone living in the area it's going to become much worse before it gets better. God is with you.
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On November 15 2012 13:24 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +
How many rockets do you think the US would tolerate? If Mexico launched ONE missile into US territory, what do you think would happen? Or any country in the fucking world for that matter. So don't mind me if i scream self-defence till i go blue in the face.
I would hope that the US would take a more measured approach to 1 rocket, i.e they would kill the people responsible via a tactical team in a similar way to how you got osama. Not kill 4 innocent people with an air strike. I'm all for self defence, but Israel would serve itself better by taking these guys out clean rather than taking out children with him. It just fuels the fire. Killing a political/military figure is generally seen, on both sides, as somewhat fair game, whenever one side kills innocents, its universally considered to be unjust. Both sides are basically shooting themselves in the foot. There is only one way I see this conflict ending, I hope I'm wrong but it is with Israel wiping Palestine off the map. Israel has nuclear capability, an military training to rival (and in some areas surpass) the USA, UK etc. They can take out Palestine any time they want but atm the will of the international community keeps them from doing it. Eventually though, they will just run out of patience and do it.
lol wtf? You think the US can just kill specific terrorists on demand?
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On November 15 2012 13:25 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 13:22 Souma wrote:On November 15 2012 13:20 micronesia wrote:On November 15 2012 13:19 Souma wrote:
Palestinians don't want "peace." They want their home back. How lovely would it be if the U.S. took over half of Mexico then said, "Hey, guys, we want peace!" Both sides want this also. Neither side is wrong for wanting to live in the area... otherwise this would be a simple issue. Never said it was simple. Just saying it's stupid to blackball Palestinians when obviously, they are not just shooting rockets for no reason. I think terminology is important. The average Palestinian probably isn't interested in rockets, or war, or anything like that. Hamas however... Anyway, why are they shooting rockets into civilian territory?
Possibly because Israel is also shooting rockets into civilian territory under the pretext of 'to kill the terrorists' - and no I am not just talking about this incident.
You're arguing on the fact that a terrorist organisation fired '13,000 rockets into Israel', whilst completely glossing over the fact that Israel also fired '13,000' rockets at Palestine - real smooth.
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"Between a high, solid wall and an egg that breaks against it, I will always stand on the side of the egg."
Yes, no matter how right the wall may be and how wrong the egg, I will stand with the egg. Someone else will have to decide what is right and what is wrong; perhaps time or history will decide. If there were a novelist who, for whatever reason, wrote works standing with the wall, of what value would such works be?" - Haruki Murakami
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Israel2209 Posts
It was quite obvious that NOW someone would make a thread about this.
However, SEVERAL DAYS AGO, after months of 0 hostile actions from either side, when the Palestinians:
1) Shot an Israeli army jeep with an anti-tank rocket (and did it very purposefully, with 3 separate camera crews lined up)
2) Shot dozens of rockets into Israel (and these rockets are only ever shot at civilian population centers, I assume you all know this by now, but just in case...)
No one was talking about it anywhere, because it is not news until the anti-Israeli PR system goes into full blast mode. You newsmongers sometimes.. just need to get your act straight.
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United States44408 Posts
On November 15 2012 12:53 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Arabs make me facepalm more and more. Almost all of the countries are now pretty Islamified (and unfortunately the US has played a critical role in undermining secularism in the Mideast, such as backing Islamist dictatorships in the Arabian peninsula and overthrowing secular regimes to be replaced immediately or eventually by Islamic ones) and are just getting more and more idiotic. It almost makes me think favorably of Israeli policy. Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:19 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 11:09 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 11:07 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 11:02 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Read above post, maybe you should find the "kill as many Israelis" because right now Israeli has a much lighter civilian deathrate than Palestine. Right and guess what? Too bad. This conflict has generations of hatred in it. There is no negotiated peace, the conflict will end when one side is defeated. No other conflict had generations of hatred? The apartheid which is often compared in South Africa to Israel and Palestine today, the black/white connection in America, the century long feuds between British and French. Sorry, I didn't know "conflicts of interest" were required to be solved by the sword. On November 15 2012 11:09 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. Odd way of looking at defense you have. That's like equating the USA's involvement in Iraq as a "defensive measure"  Sympathies go to all the families in the Palestinian region, they're suffering some pretty ridiculous abuses. On November 15 2012 10:57 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. You might want to read up the official goals of the Hamas organisation regarding Israel. These guys are Nazis and they won't deviate one millimeter from their political goals. In these goals Israel does not exist anymore, there is nothing to discuss with high ranked Hamas officials. NAZI"s are they? But I thought Nazi's were uprising in Germany instead... do away with your fear mongering. Equating the Hamas to the Nazi regime... How silly of you. Tell me, oh master of knowledge, what are the rates of innocent Palestinians dying yearly to Israeli's ? Or the UN specifically condemning the child abuse by the IDF. Oh Israel does wrong, too. Really, I thought the conflict could be broken down in a black and white scheme. Thanks for your expertise. And again Hamas official line regarding Israel and its jewish inhabitants is to either deport them or if they don't go voluntarily, kill them. Just to emphasize again, this is the political line of the highest Hamas officials. Of course, you would talk it out with these guys from the safety of your home of course. And yes, this attitude equals the one of the Nazi, apart from the fact that the Hamas ideology is based on religion, too. Can you give me the EXACT specifications on how a non-state, with weak military presence and is practically under martial law has ANY comparison with the rise of one of the greatest military powers in history other then it wants to kill the other side... Holy shit, America is NAZI, Canada is NAZI, shit Ghengis fucking Khan is a NAZI. Religion being involved? Crusades were full of NAZI's. I mean by your comparison, if you want to kill someone you're a NAZI. Get real, this is getting pathetic at best. Yeah easy. Both movements formulate the goal of killing jews. In Nazi Germany's case it was the European jews, in Hamas case the goal is the killing of the middle eastern jews. If you are delusional enough to think that you can somehow negotiate with these guys: They already made clear that they won't respect peacetreaties between Fatah and Israel, that they never will recognize the state of Israel because it will undermine their cause of "liberating" the middle east from the jews. Again, there is nothing to discuss with these people. They don't want to kill the other side (state of Israel), they want to kill the other side and it's inhabitants, huge difference. Most Jews in Israel come from Europe lol... XD
A lot of them came from the other Arab nations. Unlike Israel's treatment of the Palestinians there was, following the foundation of Israel, a systematic policy of ethnic cleansing carried out against the native Jewish populations across the Arab world which had been there for generations. Fortunately Israel opened its doors to them as they were forced from their homes. The Arab world however did not open it's doors to the Palestinian refugees, preferring to perpetuate an artificial humanitarian crisis for the purpose of propaganda against Israel.
Food for thought.
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Australia8532 Posts
On November 15 2012 13:32 Phyrigian wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 13:20 micronesia wrote:On November 15 2012 13:19 Souma wrote:
Palestinians don't want "peace." They want their home back. How lovely would it be if the U.S. took over half of Mexico then said, "Hey, guys, we want peace!" Both sides want this also. Neither side is wrong for wanting to live in the area... otherwise this would be a simple issue. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IFobL.jpg) I think it's just a little unfair how palestine gets 90% of their land took away and gets painted as the bad guys when theyre outraged over the conflict.
Why is this the second time this image is posted in this thread? Is there an email going around that i missed?
Pictures are entertaining and all, but they ignore so much context that it is ridiculous. Do you know the events that lead up to that point? Do you know what happened and why? Do the dates 1936, 1947 and 1948 mean anything to you? Or how about 1999/2000?
Both sides have a right to be pissed off. Both sides have done wrong and been wronged. Don't play the underdog card because that doesn't give you a right to attack another sovereign nation.
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1019 Posts
There isn't a right or wrong side in this. Both sides are wrong.
The israelis are full of shit and the palestinians are full of shit. But the israelis are a little more full of shit than the palestinians.
They've been killing each other since even before jesus was born. So they are not going to stop anytime soon.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On November 15 2012 13:25 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 13:22 Souma wrote:On November 15 2012 13:20 micronesia wrote:On November 15 2012 13:19 Souma wrote:
Palestinians don't want "peace." They want their home back. How lovely would it be if the U.S. took over half of Mexico then said, "Hey, guys, we want peace!" Both sides want this also. Neither side is wrong for wanting to live in the area... otherwise this would be a simple issue. Never said it was simple. Just saying it's stupid to blackball Palestinians when obviously, they are not just shooting rockets for no reason. I think terminology is important. The average Palestinian probably isn't interested in rockets, or war, or anything like that. Hamas however... Anyway, why are they shooting rockets into civilian territory?
Might have something to do with this: http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp
Though as I've said, this is a decades-long conflict (even longer, really, if you think about the historical bad blood between Arabs and Jews in the area).
So what, Israel kills many times more civilians and we just... we just what? Point a finger at Palestinians?
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On November 15 2012 13:33 Noam wrote:
It was quite obvious that NOW someone would make a thread about this.
However, SEVERAL DAYS AGO, after months of 0 hostile actions from either side, when the Palestinians:
1) Shot an Israeli army jeep with an anti-tank rocket (and did it very purposefully, with 3 separate camera crews lined up)
2) Shot dozens of rockets into Israel (and these rockets are only ever shot at civilian population centers, I assume you all know this by now, but just in case...)
No one was talking about it anywhere, because it is not news until the anti-Israeli PR system goes into full blast mode. You newsmongers sometimes.. just need to get your act straight.
Stop accusing me of anti-Israel bias, you hack.
I created this thread in response to a news event, and wrote a fairly unbiased OP, and you accuse ME of being biased purely because I didn't give this thread more pro-Israel evidence?
Good lord, I hate General sometimes.
Edit: Read the OP.
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