|
On November 15 2012 13:48 fluidin wrote:
no matter if it's more unfair to the Palestinian or not, i agree that there are only really 2 feasible solutions to this issue considering the factors presently known.
one, forced 2 state agreement, which probably has a much lower chance of happening than the other, the slow and complete eradication of the Palestinian state, or to similar effect.
too bad the Palestinian people didn't reach an agreement back when it was still possible and elected Hamas in. In a way, they failed to predict what was to come and overestimated their own capabilities. Sun Tzu would not like that. at least the Vietcong had a plan.
Huh? The Palestinian population will outgrow the Israeli within the next 30 years. As the influence of APAIC continues to decline in American election, their last protector in the West is going to care less and less.
In the meantime the oil money of Iraq/Saudi/Qatar will have to go somewhere, and god knows they'd rather spend it on sponsoring senseless violence than improving the lot of their people.
Israel is progressively in a worse and worse position. In the 50s and 60s they could easily launch raids against all their neighbors and not have to fear retribution due to the incompetence of the various regimes around them. But now you have random guys building up missile launchers right next door, fire of a few missiles, suffer retribution that gets shown on TV as Israel tanks shoot up a bunch of refugee camps and the consequent deaths dont even bite into the Palestinian birth rates.
In the meantime, Israel politics continues to become more poisoned as more and more religious orthodox Jews come to the forefront and articulate a claim to all of Palestine basted on religious views that are antithetical to the ever-secularizing Western world and it will become harder and harder for low information Americans to say "Oh they are just defending themselves, those plucky heroic Israelis."
|
On November 15 2012 14:37 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 14:34 Redox wrote:
Biased OP is biased.
In my opinion its impressive how effective and precise Israel is able to go against the leadership of those who commit terrorist attacks against it. Your post is biased ._. "Effective and precise" when the article already cites civilian collateral damage? The OP is fine.
Of course my post is biased. I expressed an opinion as asked for by the OP. In contrast to me the OP claimed to be unbiased, which is nothing but hilarious.
And yes, by any military definition the strike was extremely precise. Have you seen the photos? You can never completely be able to avoid any civilian bystanders to be affected when Hamas is always trying their best to operate in civilian areas.
|
Jewish joke on Arab politics:
"Myself against my brother."
"Myself and my brother against my cousin."
"Myself, my brother, and my cousin against the government."
"Myself, my brother, my cousin, and my government against the Israelis."
|
I never understood why Israel even bothers to negotiate at all when it is in so obviously superior of a position. Simply dictate the terms, and if there is opposition, just crush it. Israel has proven time and again that it is more than capable of doing so. There might be some temporary international backlash, but it would largely be from nations/groups that are already Israel's enemies.
|
On November 15 2012 14:36 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 14:29 AngryMag wrote:On November 15 2012 14:21 schaf wrote:
What I don't understand is that this is just the beginning of more to come, i an article I read a few hours ago it said that Israel was threatening to advance on ground into Palestine, but nowhere it said for WHAT. They killed some high official of the Hamas, great for them. and now? Annexion before Palestine gets to set any toe into the UN?
It's kinda like the news that *Turkey is bombing targets in Syria* but I didn't find anywhere what kind of targets. So all in all this news is quite misleading, could be they bombed some villages for retaliation, who knows?
The sad part is that there will be no punishment for Israel from the West in any way. Makes me sad to live here... Israel is forced to retaliate. The killing of the Hamas official was a retaliation for 80 rockets which were fired into Israeli territory last weekend by Hamas troops. What happens if Israel stops retaliating? First Hamas continues their armed struggle. Cleansing the middle East from jews is a declared goal of this organisation and Israeli appeasement won't stop them from trying to reach that goal. Second israeli innerpolitical pressure for retaliation rises. If they don't retaliate, the point will come that the electorate just votes somebody in who is promising to roll the palestinians over. Nobody endures to get shot at over time without trying to get rid of the threat. It's the general concensus of Arabs, AND Jews in the region including many Israeli scholars that Israel will disappear over the course of history because it is not a functional self sustainable state system unless a two state solution or a state dissolution happens. Israel is not self sustainable, the vast majority of its GDP and economic growth is held up exclusively by funding from military and infrastructural projects from the West. It has no access to clean water and is subsisting on stealing the water from Palestinian water sources which in the middle east is an extremely big deal because no country can function with out access to water. It has next to no political integrity in the eyes of the majority of the world's populace as well as political bodies. Though the people of the world may express sympathy and strive for human rights for the Jewish people, particularly those living in Israel, very few actually defend the legitimacy of the Israeli State, and they are expressing equal sympathy for the residents of Palestine.
I elaborated in an earlier post in this thread that I see a two state solution as the only viable one. I also said that the world must pressure Israel into a compromise which is ok for both sides. They need the pressure because they are in a far stronger negotiation position.
To the scholar point:
They may be right or wrong, but I know that making predictions over long periods of time is highely unreliable from a scientific point of view. Basically every one so far was far off. Be it population development, wealth development, predicitons about the rain forest (which should already be gone, according to predictions). Physics and math are the only two fields that come to my mind (without putting much thought in it) that can make reliable long term predictions, because physical laws don't change over night. Unforseeable circumstances could change the situation in the middle east pretty fast and make these kind of predictions null and void.
|
Way to go Israel! Fully behind the decision and the IDF on this one, great move. If Egypt only like passivity in the face of continuing rocket attacks, then what has Israel to lose by their withdrawal of support? The other part about this idea is the Iranian ties
Hamas’s military apparatus is tied to Iran, says Jonathan Schanzer, vice president of research at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies. “Anyone who is part of the Qassam Brigades gets Iranian training.” Schanzer believes that today’s operations against Hamas positions in Gaza are likely related to last month’s bombing of a factory in Sudan, believed to have been the work of the Israeli military. source
More posturing against Iran. Netanyahu drew that big red line in the UN; here's more reason to believe he's serious. And, heck, a few less terrorists to deal with.
|
First I read that Israel has killed a teenage Palestininan. Then Hamas detonates some tunnel full with explosives wounding Israeli soldiers. Israel returns fire, Hamas fires at an Israeli jeep, wounding 4 soldiers. Israel deploys airplanes. Hamas fires some 100 rockets into southern Israel.
Then I read that Egypt has brokered a peace deal and both parties agree.
The next day Israel assassinates Jabar and starts air and sea offensive, prepares troops for an all out assault.
In the end we have a dozen or so wounded Israelis and 10 (?) killed Palestinians, probably because Israel uses real weapons while Hamas has those shitty homemade rockets that can't do a thing.
Now could anyone explain, how this all started, because what I am reading from the media is very confounding? And what's the purpose of attacking a city with warships?
|
On November 15 2012 14:43 Draconizard wrote:
I never understood why Israel even bothers to negotiate at all when it is in so obviously superior of a position. Simply dictate the terms, and if there is opposition, just crush it. Israel has proven time and again that it is more than capable of doing so. There might be some temporary international backlash, but it would largely be from nations/groups that are already Israel's enemies.
Israel needs some veneer of international support to survive, since it still recieves a ton of American military aid and its power projection capabilities past the 1000km mark are very limited.
|
On November 15 2012 14:15 pb.fcnz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:40 docvoc wrote:On November 15 2012 11:06 Caihead wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Do some actual research into the history of Hamas / Hezbollah and why they were formed, they were democratically elected into office following a previous government's inability to retaliate or protect its own civilians to Israeli aggression. The rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel ceased when Israel ceased firing during a temporary cease fire, and Israel is the party that instigated it, not the other way around. The only reason why these democratically elected parties are labeled terrorists is because they are on the wrong side, if you took away the names and locations and simply judged the actions on their own "X party launched rockets into Y's territory today, breaking the cease fire and Y retaliated", "X party bombed Y's territory killing its elected leader", etc; you might figure out that both sides have at least equal blame and both parties deserve to be labeled terrorists. What is also obvious is the party that's subjugating the other party, encroaching on its land, forcibly bull dozing down people's houses and building new settlements every month, violating the internationally agreed lines, building prison walls and watch towers and preventing passage between the subjugated party's own territory, etc etc etc. Figure shit out yourself before posting ignorant crap. I really hate these threads. I don't hate them because they don't discuss relevant events, I hate them because the truth doesnt ever really show it's just peoples opinions, not even facts in history. The fact is that about 80 missiles hit Israel from Gaza last weekend. This was a retaliation for that attack, the IDF and various other pro-israel status updaters posted that there were 80 missiles that hit israel over the weekend, on various applications. The mainstream media (yahoo) had that as a link at the very bottom of the page on the second part of international news. This was retaliation for that attack after the Palestinian attempted attacks, especially after Palestine was relatively quiet and peaceful for a bit because of their attempt to get into the U.N. Also no, they are not democratically elected according to modern terms, women and non-islamic people are not allowed to vote. Also I think you could do some actual research, past what mainstream media says, since on this subject they are overwhelmingly wrong. Do some simple research into how Israel came to be, how these movements and where the word Palestinian came from, etc. You will find that the issues are much less black and white than you make them. One party is infact not subjugating the other. Furthermore your reductionist statements are bothering since you state them so matter of factly. You overlook the bombs sent into israel each weekend, you overlook the normal "acts of war" and "acts of aggression" that would normally constitute retributiong that Israel is for some reason not allowed. You treat this man like a saint, he killed three israelis, two of which were childrenhe bombed a school bus with israeli children on it. If he were American or Canadian that would be an enormity of jail time, he got 13 years because of international pressure. Furthermore, he helped orchestrate the shooting of 100 rockets into israel this weekend, last I checked thats an act of war from an independent country. If you want, here is a quick synopsis about the man you are defending. EDIT: Replaced the killed three people part, he actually did worse, so I'm just going to change it so as to explain the depth of his actions. Out of these 100 rockets, how many civilians were killed? Zero. IIRC the number of deaths/rockets fired is something like 1/250 ... theyre basically firing small rpgs at open fields and never hit anything. Want some FACTS? Why do you never mention the FACT that for every Israeli citizen that dies, 7 palestinians die. Where's that FACT, Mr Truth? How convenient that you pro-Israeli bots always oversee that one, cause you know, one would figure it's a pretty important stat.
Like the poster below you has stated, numbers aren't everything. They intended to kill Israeli citizens, and it's to the credit of Israeli defensive measures that casualties are minimalised, not because Hamas wanted to spare civilians. Israeli strikes are much more effective (thus the proportionate number of Palestinians killed), and they at least try to minimalise collateral damage, something Hamas cannot claim to do.
If you want FACTS, the FACT is that Israel/US is strong, and Palestine is weak. So if they really want to stop their people from dying, they should be the ones looking for a compromise, not the other way round. The way they're going about it means MORE Palestine casualties, and also intended Israeli deaths. This is the hard truth, yet they insist on fighting.
WHAT do they hope to achieve, really? By now they should have learnt it does no good to fire rockets into Israel, yet they continue to do so without prior fire from the Israelis. Are they just trying to inflict as much hurt on Israelis as they can? I too dislike the settlements issue, but at least it is in line with how Israel are starving the Gaza strip of its options.
I think it's time for the Palestine to stop overestimating their own capabilities and wake up to their own futility, so that they can actually PROGRESS from there.
EDIT: If what Sub40APM said comes into play, then it's less of a surprise that Israel is doing what they're doing in order to protect their own interests. Pretty sure they have a long term plan that takes such factors into consideration. As of NOW though, my points should stand.
|
On November 15 2012 13:33 Noam wrote:
It was quite obvious that NOW someone would make a thread about this.
However, SEVERAL DAYS AGO, after months of 0 hostile actions from either side, when the Palestinians:
1) Shot an Israeli army jeep with an anti-tank rocket (and did it very purposefully, with 3 separate camera crews lined up)
2) Shot dozens of rockets into Israel (and these rockets are only ever shot at civilian population centers, I assume you all know this by now, but just in case...)
No one was talking about it anywhere, because it is not news until the anti-Israeli PR system goes into full blast mode. You newsmongers sometimes.. just need to get your act straight.
LOL what.
It's common knowledge that america and all its liberals are all over Israel like a rash.
TL is probably one of the most leftists sites on the planet too.
Anti-israel, when talking on a largely american liberal as all fuck website?
Come on man get real. Let's not forget who's giving you all the weapons.
|
I don't care which side did it, the only people who will suffer are the innocent. Violence is violence and justification is just means to an end.
|
gogo israel ! all this guys talk like they were the evel there here ... damn no go kill some terrorists is a good way to start a day!
|
On November 15 2012 14:49 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 14:43 Draconizard wrote:
I never understood why Israel even bothers to negotiate at all when it is in so obviously superior of a position. Simply dictate the terms, and if there is opposition, just crush it. Israel has proven time and again that it is more than capable of doing so. There might be some temporary international backlash, but it would largely be from nations/groups that are already Israel's enemies. Israel needs some veneer of international support to survive, since it still recieves a ton of American military aid and its power projection capabilities past the 1000km mark are very limited.
The US for one would support Israel regardless. It might do so in a more subdued/subtle manner for a time, but that support would absolutely still exist.
|
On November 15 2012 14:50 DwarfTherapist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 13:33 Noam wrote:
It was quite obvious that NOW someone would make a thread about this.
However, SEVERAL DAYS AGO, after months of 0 hostile actions from either side, when the Palestinians:
1) Shot an Israeli army jeep with an anti-tank rocket (and did it very purposefully, with 3 separate camera crews lined up)
2) Shot dozens of rockets into Israel (and these rockets are only ever shot at civilian population centers, I assume you all know this by now, but just in case...)
No one was talking about it anywhere, because it is not news until the anti-Israeli PR system goes into full blast mode. You newsmongers sometimes.. just need to get your act straight. LOL what. It's common knowledge that america and all its liberals are all over Israel like a rash. TL is probably one of the most leftists sites on the planet too. Anti-israel, when talking on a largely american liberal as all fuck website? Come on man get real. Let's not forget who's giving you all the weapons.
well not you only xD germany send alot of weapons to israel and they only need pay 2/3 of price because well ... you know why ^^
PRO israel !
"You can only fight terror, with terror!"
|
On November 15 2012 14:15 pb.fcnz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 11:40 docvoc wrote:On November 15 2012 11:06 Caihead wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Do some actual research into the history of Hamas / Hezbollah and why they were formed, they were democratically elected into office following a previous government's inability to retaliate or protect its own civilians to Israeli aggression. The rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel ceased when Israel ceased firing during a temporary cease fire, and Israel is the party that instigated it, not the other way around. The only reason why these democratically elected parties are labeled terrorists is because they are on the wrong side, if you took away the names and locations and simply judged the actions on their own "X party launched rockets into Y's territory today, breaking the cease fire and Y retaliated", "X party bombed Y's territory killing its elected leader", etc; you might figure out that both sides have at least equal blame and both parties deserve to be labeled terrorists. What is also obvious is the party that's subjugating the other party, encroaching on its land, forcibly bull dozing down people's houses and building new settlements every month, violating the internationally agreed lines, building prison walls and watch towers and preventing passage between the subjugated party's own territory, etc etc etc. Figure shit out yourself before posting ignorant crap. I really hate these threads. I don't hate them because they don't discuss relevant events, I hate them because the truth doesnt ever really show it's just peoples opinions, not even facts in history. The fact is that about 80 missiles hit Israel from Gaza last weekend. This was a retaliation for that attack, the IDF and various other pro-israel status updaters posted that there were 80 missiles that hit israel over the weekend, on various applications. The mainstream media (yahoo) had that as a link at the very bottom of the page on the second part of international news. This was retaliation for that attack after the Palestinian attempted attacks, especially after Palestine was relatively quiet and peaceful for a bit because of their attempt to get into the U.N. Also no, they are not democratically elected according to modern terms, women and non-islamic people are not allowed to vote. Also I think you could do some actual research, past what mainstream media says, since on this subject they are overwhelmingly wrong. Do some simple research into how Israel came to be, how these movements and where the word Palestinian came from, etc. You will find that the issues are much less black and white than you make them. One party is infact not subjugating the other. Furthermore your reductionist statements are bothering since you state them so matter of factly. You overlook the bombs sent into israel each weekend, you overlook the normal "acts of war" and "acts of aggression" that would normally constitute retributiong that Israel is for some reason not allowed. You treat this man like a saint, he killed three israelis, two of which were childrenhe bombed a school bus with israeli children on it. If he were American or Canadian that would be an enormity of jail time, he got 13 years because of international pressure. Furthermore, he helped orchestrate the shooting of 100 rockets into israel this weekend, last I checked thats an act of war from an independent country. If you want, here is a quick synopsis about the man you are defending. EDIT: Replaced the killed three people part, he actually did worse, so I'm just going to change it so as to explain the depth of his actions. Out of these 100 rockets, how many civilians were killed? Zero. IIRC the number of deaths/rockets fired is something like 1/250 ... theyre basically firing small rpgs at open fields and never hit anything. Want some FACTS? Why do you never mention the FACT that for every Israeli citizen that dies, 7 palestinians die. Where's that FACT, Mr Truth? How convenient that you pro-Israeli bots always oversee that one, cause you know, one would figure it's a pretty important stat.
Because the fact that the missiles never hit anything is a reason enough to be passive?? If a guy throw a rock 1 inch over your head, do you just laugh it off? offcause not, you pick up the rock, throw it back, and keep throwing rocks untill the assholes get the idea of not sending freaking missiles rpgs granades over the border. the fact that the mortality rate is small is completely besides the point. its a very bad excuse.
|
On November 15 2012 15:02 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 14:15 pb.fcnz wrote:On November 15 2012 11:40 docvoc wrote:On November 15 2012 11:06 Caihead wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Do some actual research into the history of Hamas / Hezbollah and why they were formed, they were democratically elected into office following a previous government's inability to retaliate or protect its own civilians to Israeli aggression. The rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel ceased when Israel ceased firing during a temporary cease fire, and Israel is the party that instigated it, not the other way around. The only reason why these democratically elected parties are labeled terrorists is because they are on the wrong side, if you took away the names and locations and simply judged the actions on their own "X party launched rockets into Y's territory today, breaking the cease fire and Y retaliated", "X party bombed Y's territory killing its elected leader", etc; you might figure out that both sides have at least equal blame and both parties deserve to be labeled terrorists. What is also obvious is the party that's subjugating the other party, encroaching on its land, forcibly bull dozing down people's houses and building new settlements every month, violating the internationally agreed lines, building prison walls and watch towers and preventing passage between the subjugated party's own territory, etc etc etc. Figure shit out yourself before posting ignorant crap. I really hate these threads. I don't hate them because they don't discuss relevant events, I hate them because the truth doesnt ever really show it's just peoples opinions, not even facts in history. The fact is that about 80 missiles hit Israel from Gaza last weekend. This was a retaliation for that attack, the IDF and various other pro-israel status updaters posted that there were 80 missiles that hit israel over the weekend, on various applications. The mainstream media (yahoo) had that as a link at the very bottom of the page on the second part of international news. This was retaliation for that attack after the Palestinian attempted attacks, especially after Palestine was relatively quiet and peaceful for a bit because of their attempt to get into the U.N. Also no, they are not democratically elected according to modern terms, women and non-islamic people are not allowed to vote. Also I think you could do some actual research, past what mainstream media says, since on this subject they are overwhelmingly wrong. Do some simple research into how Israel came to be, how these movements and where the word Palestinian came from, etc. You will find that the issues are much less black and white than you make them. One party is infact not subjugating the other. Furthermore your reductionist statements are bothering since you state them so matter of factly. You overlook the bombs sent into israel each weekend, you overlook the normal "acts of war" and "acts of aggression" that would normally constitute retributiong that Israel is for some reason not allowed. You treat this man like a saint, he killed three israelis, two of which were childrenhe bombed a school bus with israeli children on it. If he were American or Canadian that would be an enormity of jail time, he got 13 years because of international pressure. Furthermore, he helped orchestrate the shooting of 100 rockets into israel this weekend, last I checked thats an act of war from an independent country. If you want, here is a quick synopsis about the man you are defending. EDIT: Replaced the killed three people part, he actually did worse, so I'm just going to change it so as to explain the depth of his actions. Out of these 100 rockets, how many civilians were killed? Zero. IIRC the number of deaths/rockets fired is something like 1/250 ... theyre basically firing small rpgs at open fields and never hit anything. Want some FACTS? Why do you never mention the FACT that for every Israeli citizen that dies, 7 palestinians die. Where's that FACT, Mr Truth? How convenient that you pro-Israeli bots always oversee that one, cause you know, one would figure it's a pretty important stat. Because the fact that the missiles never hit anything is a reason enough to be passive?? If a guy throw a rock 1 inch over your head, do you just laugh it off? offcause not, you pick up the rock, throw it back, and keep throwing rocks untill the assholes get the idea of not sending freaking missiles rpgs granades over the border. the fact that the mortality rate is small is completely besides the point. its a very bad excuse.
Imagine that same guy slowly inching his backyard into yours, taking it for his own. You throw a rock out of frustration and he kicks your dog to death. It's not that black and white, but you make it sound like theres no reason to be upset and fire rockets out of frustration when you have no alternative to negotiate.
|
On November 15 2012 14:39 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 13:48 fluidin wrote:
no matter if it's more unfair to the Palestinian or not, i agree that there are only really 2 feasible solutions to this issue considering the factors presently known.
one, forced 2 state agreement, which probably has a much lower chance of happening than the other, the slow and complete eradication of the Palestinian state, or to similar effect.
too bad the Palestinian people didn't reach an agreement back when it was still possible and elected Hamas in. In a way, they failed to predict what was to come and overestimated their own capabilities. Sun Tzu would not like that. at least the Vietcong had a plan. Huh? The Palestinian population will outgrow the Israeli within the next 30 years. As the influence of APAIC continues to decline in American election, their last protector in the West is going to care less and less. In the meantime the oil money of Iraq/Saudi/Qatar will have to go somewhere, and god knows they'd rather spend it on sponsoring senseless violence than improving the lot of their people. Israel is progressively in a worse and worse position. In the 50s and 60s they could easily launch raids against all their neighbors and not have to fear retribution due to the incompetence of the various regimes around them. But now you have random guys building up missile launchers right next door, fire of a few missiles, suffer retribution that gets shown on TV as Israel tanks shoot up a bunch of refugee camps and the consequent deaths dont even bite into the Palestinian birth rates. In the meantime, Israel politics continues to become more poisoned as more and more religious orthodox Jews come to the forefront and articulate a claim to all of Palestine basted on religious views that are antithetical to the ever-secularizing Western world and it will become harder and harder for low information Americans to say "Oh they are just defending themselves, those plucky heroic Israelis."
Do you think this is age of empires? Population doesn't mean shit....
Israel was constantly at risk of being wiped off the map in the 50s/60s, got invaded once, started a war because they were about to be invaded a second time. Launch raid with no fear of retribution ya...
|
On November 15 2012 15:02 TheRealArtemis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2012 14:15 pb.fcnz wrote:On November 15 2012 11:40 docvoc wrote:On November 15 2012 11:06 Caihead wrote:On November 15 2012 10:59 Feartheguru wrote:On November 15 2012 10:52 sorrowptoss wrote:On November 15 2012 10:36 Cush wrote:
Israel's always getting shit for defending themselves. I don't get it. You don't defend yourself by assassination. You can't justify the planned murder of a person for the sake of peace. It's just as criminal as whatever the said person once did. I think that retaliation is the worst way to "defend" yourself, if it's considered "defending" yourself in the first place; peace is instead a better solution, it's just that in a place like the Gaza Strip, with all its instabilities and Hamas vs Fatah shenanigans, peace is only a dream in a time like now (and Isreal isn't helping by assassinating people). Yes, it is wrong to fire rockets into Isreal from Gaza, but if you're implying that you're seeking justice through the right to defend yourself, than it's wrong to kill in return because that's counter-productive. So... your idea is to let them kill as many Israelis as they want until they decide they want peace. Do some actual research into the history of Hamas / Hezbollah and why they were formed, they were democratically elected into office following a previous government's inability to retaliate or protect its own civilians to Israeli aggression. The rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel ceased when Israel ceased firing during a temporary cease fire, and Israel is the party that instigated it, not the other way around. The only reason why these democratically elected parties are labeled terrorists is because they are on the wrong side, if you took away the names and locations and simply judged the actions on their own "X party launched rockets into Y's territory today, breaking the cease fire and Y retaliated", "X party bombed Y's territory killing its elected leader", etc; you might figure out that both sides have at least equal blame and both parties deserve to be labeled terrorists. What is also obvious is the party that's subjugating the other party, encroaching on its land, forcibly bull dozing down people's houses and building new settlements every month, violating the internationally agreed lines, building prison walls and watch towers and preventing passage between the subjugated party's own territory, etc etc etc. Figure shit out yourself before posting ignorant crap. I really hate these threads. I don't hate them because they don't discuss relevant events, I hate them because the truth doesnt ever really show it's just peoples opinions, not even facts in history. The fact is that about 80 missiles hit Israel from Gaza last weekend. This was a retaliation for that attack, the IDF and various other pro-israel status updaters posted that there were 80 missiles that hit israel over the weekend, on various applications. The mainstream media (yahoo) had that as a link at the very bottom of the page on the second part of international news. This was retaliation for that attack after the Palestinian attempted attacks, especially after Palestine was relatively quiet and peaceful for a bit because of their attempt to get into the U.N. Also no, they are not democratically elected according to modern terms, women and non-islamic people are not allowed to vote. Also I think you could do some actual research, past what mainstream media says, since on this subject they are overwhelmingly wrong. Do some simple research into how Israel came to be, how these movements and where the word Palestinian came from, etc. You will find that the issues are much less black and white than you make them. One party is infact not subjugating the other. Furthermore your reductionist statements are bothering since you state them so matter of factly. You overlook the bombs sent into israel each weekend, you overlook the normal "acts of war" and "acts of aggression" that would normally constitute retributiong that Israel is for some reason not allowed. You treat this man like a saint, he killed three israelis, two of which were childrenhe bombed a school bus with israeli children on it. If he were American or Canadian that would be an enormity of jail time, he got 13 years because of international pressure. Furthermore, he helped orchestrate the shooting of 100 rockets into israel this weekend, last I checked thats an act of war from an independent country. If you want, here is a quick synopsis about the man you are defending. EDIT: Replaced the killed three people part, he actually did worse, so I'm just going to change it so as to explain the depth of his actions. Out of these 100 rockets, how many civilians were killed? Zero. IIRC the number of deaths/rockets fired is something like 1/250 ... theyre basically firing small rpgs at open fields and never hit anything. Want some FACTS? Why do you never mention the FACT that for every Israeli citizen that dies, 7 palestinians die. Where's that FACT, Mr Truth? How convenient that you pro-Israeli bots always oversee that one, cause you know, one would figure it's a pretty important stat. Because the fact that the missiles never hit anything is a reason enough to be passive?? If a guy throw a rock 1 inch over your head, do you just laugh it off? offcause not, you pick up the rock, throw it back, and keep throwing rocks untill the assholes get the idea of not sending freaking missiles rpgs granades over the border. the fact that the mortality rate is small is completely besides the point. its a very bad excuse.
Israel has little incentive or reason to negotiate with a far inferior party.
|
21.12.2012 is comming....
|
Here's the thing that gets me.
Israel is the nation that controls Palestine. The whole region is either a part of Israel itself or is under its control. The other groups claiming the area are only recognized internationally by those nations who already dislike Israel.
So on the one side, you could view Israel as essentially waging a civil war to maintain control over it's territory.
On the other side, you could view the Palestinian organizations as freedom fighters against an unwanted government.
If you agree with the first, doing things like imprisoning or even assassinating leaders of terrorist organizations is perfectly justified. If you agree with the second, then you have yet another reason to demonize the Israeli government. Which side is right? It depends on which side of the fence you're on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
